How many of you have had music education in school?
Thinking about the recent budget issues here in the US, and knowing my dad recently spoke to congress members on the importance of keeping music in school. Wonder how hard it's gonna be for some states and communities to keep their music programs... if any of you have any connections get some ear time in and emphasize the importance of keeping music in schools.
Hey, it's music related.
It sure is (said the former junior high music teacher).
Good post rharv.
When I was in school, music was so far on the backburner that it was essentially non-existent. School had nothing to do with me learning to play. It should have!
Counselors and teachers never mentioned music when I was a kid. Maybe it would help if the emphasis wasn’t just on brass and percussion? Strings anyone? (Although I know it doesn’t work in a marching band.) But it would work in an auditorium, or even a basketball court.
Music should be a basic part of our kid’s education. If it doesn't produce musicians, it will produce people who will appreciate music when they hear it.
My brother and I (and our sister the violinist who went to medical school instead) enjoyed what was to become the tail end of the public and private school music system in Pittsburgh, PA of the era. Great teachers, many of whom actually also worked as musicians as well as teaching music in the schools as well as private lessons.
Alas, those days are gone, but there are still plenty of active school band and orchestral programs in many public school systems. Here in the Tidewater area of Virginia, things look good for the kids.
Still, all it takes is a serious parent who will take the time that it takes, spend the money needed for instrument and teacher, plus provide that good old and usually necessary reinforcement of the discipline, such as making sure that practice doesn't fall by the wayside. We had those great school programs, but our parents took an active interest in outside music activities as well, the youth orchestras and whatnot, even music camps. It don't take a village, it takes a *family*.
There are still also plenty of outside outlets and venues for the youth to learn music, more now than there were in my day, for example, we did not even dream of a Rock 'n Roll camp, nor Bluegrass camp or Jazz camp for that matter. Those were all considered to be things that you took up on your own and to quite a few of the old school music teachers, it was viewed as mispent youth.
Judging from the school instrument rental programs in the music emporiums I love to visit when travelling, the school music programs are still there and are still providing the exposure to the art and science of making music. Not all will go on to try to make it as pro musicians, but all will certainly benefit from the experience, sometimes in ways that won't become clear to them until much later on in life. I recall checking out a university study that showed that college students who had been exposed to learning and practicing a musical instrument scored higher academic marks even in majors seemingly unrelated to music. Something to think about.
--Mac
It's not just appreciating music Bob, it is SO much more.
Music teaches you to do math in realtime (countng beats and subdivisions)
Music is another 'written' language that is pretty universal now. Think about that; you are reading something not written in English and able to not only comprehend it but often also hear and feel it as you read it. Many people need to play it to hear it, but even that shows it is another language they can interpret. Some people can look at written music and 'hear' it with amazing detail.
It goes on and on. Music makes people smarter And happier. And heal faster. And creates discipline (through practice) ...
So many reasons, all proven with studies multiple times.
Music is important.
Yep; there are many studies showing students who studied music will score higher in other areas.
The music education I had in grades 1-8 was pretty much banging on percussion instruments, a little bit of singing, those horrid class performances....
Fortunately I started formal music lessons before age 5. By the time I got to kindergarten I could read music on the scale, knew about downbeats and what "2 and 4" was about, knew that the black keys were called sharps and flats.... so by about the 3rd or 4th grade music in grade school was pretty much a joke for me. There were 2 other guys who played instruments and we used to bring our stuff in for entertainment days. I am Slovenian and grew up in an ethnic neighborhood where polka and waltz was all they knew, and we all played accordion, so there would be three us up there with accordions.
Moving on to high school where you had actual band with brass and instruments, as well as percussion, piano, string bass, etc.... there we had better teachers. I sang in chorale in high school. I remember even in the 60s that the teachers would often buy stuff out of pocket rather than fight with the school board about $50 worth of supplies.
When I got to college (after the service), I had been playing 18 years already and tested through 101, 102, 103, 201, 202, 203 and went right to performance. Now you're talking. State funded college. Anything we wanted, we got.
Then move ahead when I went back to college for the computer degree in 1991. Already schools were cutting back some. I was taking some music education courses, thinking that as I got out of playing I might like to teach. The instructor in one of the first classes I had was a trumpet player who I happened to know. We went out for a beer after class one night and we were talking, and he asked why I wanted to teach. I told him about the giving back part, the interest in helping kids, etc.... He said "I teach high school. I teach 2 nights a week here at the college. I direct a community band, and I gig a few times a month. With all that, I can barely make ends meet. You turn all your work in on really well done computer printouts, and I hear you practicing before class. You play well, and you know computers. I think teaching would be a real letdown for you with the school board politics and all." And this wasn't a guy who came off as particularly jaded or anything.
Now I said all that to say this. I can not IMAGINE going to the school board because my junior high band needs new conga drums and being told there was no budget. My reply would be something like "Maybe you didn't hear me. My kids need new conga drums. Sign the &^!$%%^@ form so I can order them. And do it now." And then the police would escort me out and I would never teach again. That wouldn't have worked out for me.
Yet my very dear friend LOVES teaching. She teaches junior high aged kids, is a great player and amazing singer (like Emmylou Harris!!) and just loves what she does. She also talks about the school board cutting to the bare minimum and that some day they would eliminate music completely. (She works in a small suburb where the population is not among the sharpest knives in the drawer to start with.) And that would be sad.
I can't imagine what my life would have been without the inspiration I got from The Beatles coming to town, and the exhilaration I get from hearing Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmuzik, and the power and majesty of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, or the calming strains of Vivaldi's Four Seasons.
Music is everywhere if you allow yourself to hear it. I was in Arizona in 1980 staying with a buddy who had dirt bikes. One night late I went for a ride and I went WAY out into the desert, so far out that there was no "city" around me. No city lights, no city noises. Just me, the sand, a little breeze and enough moon to see where the snakes were. To the uninitiated, it was dead silence. But to me, I heard a music out there I had not heard before, or since. The wind blowing the sand, the snakes and the lizards moving with a soft whoosh, the occasional distant call of some animal or another.... that is a music you can't describe, and my description did not give it justice. A beautiful calm.
And that's what kids will miss if there is no music training. They will still listen to their iPods, but listening to this angry, racist, sexist, awful music with lyrics all about "biatch" and "ho'" and "nigga" and "muthafucka".... what happened to our craft? When did it become so angry and violent? More importantly, why? Is it necessary?
"All you need is love....."
Edited to add:
And none of that would have happened or mattered had there not been music education in schools.
Rharv,
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It's not just appreciating music Bob, it is SO much more.
I didn’t mean to compare “Music Appreciation” with actually learning to play an instrument and read and understand music. My bad. There’s such a huge difference between those two things.
I started trumpet in the 4th grade. I added the French horn in the 10th grade. I sang in the grade school and high school choirs. I took college level music theory and appreciation courses in the 11th and 12th grades. If it weren’t for music I would probably be in jail now. Really, music education changed my whole life!
Here in Western NY schools have already cut back on the arts and music and that is a terrible thing. Of course they have kept ALL of their sports programs. At the music store where I teach we get a lot of concerned parents giving bringing their kids in for music lessons. We are trying to spread the word about the importance, as stated in many of this forum’s messages, of music in school.
thanks Mario
Same thing going on in Michigan? The schools seem to think music, art and anything creative should go first. I think better stated, anything that costs money to maintain that is not a money maker. Sports are even falling short here, however, the "good" sports schools are not hurting. There is one huge high school here that is typically nationally ranked in football every year. Most of their home games are played at a college to sellout and overflow crowds, and the typically are no worse than 11-1 and play in the state championship. On the other side of the coin, the high school in my neighborhood, due to extremely low enrollment, last year did not win a game in football, basketball and baseball COMBINED. Every team was winless. Thus they did not sell any tickets beyond parents, and in this neighborhood the fathers are absent on 80% of the homes. That also means that the single mother does not have money to spend to go see her son play football. One game last year they had 48 people in the stands.
Music, since it requires instruments and maintenance, art because it requires supplies... they get the short end of it. The families can not afford art supplies, sax rental.... such a sad economic time in general and this is where it trickles down to.
I once did some volunteer time in an inner city school giving computer classes. One kid was like a sponge as he sat there hanging in EVERY word. Spoke to his teacher and she said the kid only comes to school every other day. During lunch I sat down with him and after some pulling and prodding, he told me that he and his brother share "the school clothes" and they take turns going to school.
(The next day, he and his brother each had 5 new outfits so they could both go to school every day.)
Chess, debate..... those don't have a lot of expense, so they continue. But music and art get cut out..... so sad.
When I went to school, in the 50s-60s, they tested all of us before we went into Junior High or Middle school. (They also gave lots of sugar cubes. Vaccines I guess?) This was the first year they started Junior High in NYC. No more 8th grade. You went from 6th to JHS for 3 years then went to High School for 3 years. We started High School in the second year.
After we were all tested, we all wound up in different classes with different subjects.
I was in the Special Progress Classes. I had foreign language, band and orchestra, algebra and whole bunch of other High School courses.
Everyone else had other classes, like math and shop and all the regular ones as well.
The Music and Foreign Language classes I had were majors. Which meant if we failed any of them we got left back? Band counted as much as English or Math.
It all turned out to be a disaster for the school system, but I was exposed to Musical Instruments and playing by the time I was 12. I chose Tenor Sax. I should have picked Violin. The sax weighed a ton. It was a long walk to school with a ton of books and a Tenor Sax.
After that, in High School there was no music at all. It was like I was back in the 5th grade. What a waste. Years later when my wife was still teaching High School English, there was a big campaign for music, because they proved that it improved Math scores. So they started Music Classes and all the kids Math scores went up. Then 2 years later they dropped the music classes and we were back to where we started. No music or hardly any. They spent a lot of dough on sports though.
I loved it. I don’t think I would have gotten into music without school. I only started playing the guitar at 21. I bought an old guitar from an old guy on my block for 5 bucks and I was hooked. I got me a book called E-Z Guitar and learned it and I was off and running.
Our school in town now, had a great band in the late 80s and 90s, now it’s pathetic. It’s very sad. I believe many children have no idea they have musical talent.
Wayne,
I was an army brat, moving every couple of years growing up (and even as an adult, as I was in the army, myself). For me, I can remember having an actual music class in third grade (learning really very elementary theory - notes, styles, melodies, singing, playing - well playing on - several instruments). Then nothing until 6th grade, where they asked if anyone wanted to learn an instrument. I wanted to learn trumpet and what happened was the junior high school music teacher came to the elementary school once a week and pulled me out of class for a lesson (I didn't do so well in history that year).
In 7th grade (junior high), I played in the band, but half-way through the year, my dad got reassigned from California to Washington, DC. I ended up going to school in Fairfax County, where I continued band through 9th grade, when we moved again to Kentucky.
I say my claim to fame is that I got to play at Wolf Trap Farm Park (well, as a freshman, I played in the high school band there for the seniors who were graduating). I finished high school playing in band, and then also participated in local music theater, as well as in the pit band for shows. Off to military college in Georgia, where I also played in the band. Not since 3rd grade, however, did I have a general music class, and not since 6th grade did I ever have private lessons (which I regret).
Now my son learned to play viola in the 5th grade, then joined the band on percussion in the 6th grade. His junior high also started a jazz band, and he played drum set for it in 7th and 8th grade, as well as in concert band. We were able to get him private lessons from a retired Sgt Major who happened to previously be the lead percussionist in The Army Band. This guy loved to take young kids under his wing and teach them that percussion wasn't just about playing rock and roll on a drum set.
In high school, he was in the marching band (and was the head of the drum line from his sophomore year on), as well as concert band, and his school earned Virginia Honor Band each year he was there. He also played in our county's wonderful youth symphony program where he got to go play at Carnegie Hall (practice, practice, practice) and they won the competition there (deservedly). He went through a multiple audition process and was also selected for the Virginia Governor's School for Performing Arts. He played in All-District and All-State band. He was also selected to play in the Young Artist program, where he got to play with the National Symphony Orchestra.
But it was only through band and orchestra that he received music education; there are not "general music" classes anymore.
He's now getting ready to start his senior year at West Virginia University on a full-ride music scholarship and just last week returned from five weeks of playing at the Eastern Music Festival in Greensboro, NC.
I guess I'll just have to live vicariously, since I never had all the opportunities he has had. I suspect that if we did not live in the Northern Virginia area, he would not have necessarily had those opportunities.
Unfortunately today, education equals preparation to pass some standardized test, rather than learning to do things, solve problems, think creatively, and be ready to enter a harsh world out there. That's very sad...
John,
What a wonderful story. I can see how lucky your son was to be around people who were there to see his talent and nurture it. Congratulations on his accomplishments.
His story sounds just like they way it was here in the town where we live in upstate NY just 25 years ago. Every step he took there were kids just like him here taking the same ones.
My wife and I would go and watch those School Band and Drum competitions every year. They were events we never missed. They were very exciting and it was very exciting to watch so many young people giving so much and working so hard. They were all winners.
He had the advantage of opportunities that don’t exist here and in a lot of places anymore. This country has failed our children. Testing instead of teaching doesn’t work.
Over 20 years ago my Wife was still a High School English teacher. She meets her old students now, all grown up with their own families. Most of them gave her a hard time in school. Now they give her a hug and thank her for doing what she did for them. Some of them are Poets, some a writers and some are just really good people. One girl told her if it wasn’t for her teaching her how to write a paper correctly, she never would have become a Lawyer.
I wish the best for your son and for your family. Thanks for sharing this.
Wayne,
Schools today, are much more about indoctrination than they are about education. I heard a progressive say some years back, on a TV show, "We know we will never change your minds. But we will teach & train your kids."
I worked an IT contract some years back, maybe 2005, and that contract took me into the inner city schools. I was appalled to see what I saw. Most of these kids never took the earbuds out of their ears while sitting in class. And was more appalling, most of the teachers didn't care. As we signed out of the building, the principal happened to be there and was thanking us for coming. He walked out with us and I said "I have to ask you, on or off the record, don't you care that the teachers let kids listen to music instead of paying attention?" His reply startled me. He said "This is a city school. These teachers have contracts. All they are required to do is show up and do their bare minimum, and 90% do exactly that. They don't care about other people's kids at all. And that is off the record."
I found that sad. And it angered me that I help fund those schools with taxes, and that those same teachers will whine about not making enough money. The three rooms I was in... those teachers were making TOO MUCH money. One was complaining that she had 22 kids in her class. I was never in a room of less than 40 students. And the teacher walked in and said "Let's get started", and that room went dead silent and stayed that way for 45 minutes.
But on topic, music and art, the only outlet for kids who are artistic and not athletic, is still sneered at by many of the Neanderthal types who don't understand that not everybody is the next Lebron James. Who, by the way, went to a private school, out of his district, paid for by a sponsor, and took remedial classes for 4 years. Amazing what a 6'7" 250 pound body and some athletic ability will get you.... he can barely read, he can barely use the native language of the country he lives in. But, see: "6'7" 250 pound body" above....
I owe a lot to my Junior High School and 2 years of Senior High School (same guy) band director. I contacted him a few years ago, and to my amazement he remembered me as well.
I think it's a shame that they cut music out of school budgets when the richest of the rich pay less tax than the janitors that clean their bathrooms. I was a my mother-in-laws and she had the TV on. This guy had 6 personal jets, from a small one to a 737, 3 huge homes, and all kinds of other goodies. The janitor that cleans his office pays more income tax in real dollars.
A few months ago, I read this in the "Palm Beach Post"; the CEO of GE was defending the fact that GE paid no US taxes at all last year.
Yet when we can't balance the budget, what to they cut? Education, social security, medicare, and the stubborn refuse to let the richest of the rich pay their fair share of taxes.
It's a sad situation.
Notes
Fifty-one percent of American wage earners pay no income tax. Fair share, indeed. Which is just another symptom of having our cultural priorities backwards. Since we all agree that music education has measurable benefits in precisely the areas they are needed, why are we unable to communicate this effectively to governments and school boards?
I have to go now. Johnny has to go to football practice in our school's million-dollar stadium. He can't read and he's failing math, but, boy, can he throw a ball!
But money available is certainly NOT the problem. Matter of fact, more money is being spent on education than ever before, and that's with correcting for inflation.
The gumnmint wants to take even more money from us, but that does not neessarily translate to a restored school music program.
--Mac
Music alive and well (at least as best I can see) here at my sons HS. A HS sophmore, he just got back from a three day Band Camp with 206 kids from his school. He had a gas, and you should see him march.. left, right, froward and back wiht slides in all directions and while blowing a trumpet. Makes a father proud.
Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key. My 2 friends who teach junior high (once science and one music) routinely buy everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that". Music and band camp is great, but the parents pay money for it. The 2 concerts per year that band and chorale put on at what, $5 a ticket, is nowhere near the revenue producer that football and basketball (or bassaball as they say it in my neighborhood) is. In this conformist cookie-cutter "make money at all costs" world, the esoteric values have long since been forfeited for that 11-0 football team. That 11-0 football team gets news coverage and attention from the TV media. The band's spring concert does not.
Very sad, but very true. And it stinks, but the downward spiral of this economy, which WILL get much worse and never get better until we become a 3rd world nation, dictates the scope in which we must all think. More Walmarts, more people working in them for minimum wage under deplorable shift scheduling and such.... all while the rich get richer taking advantage of us.
I am REALLY happy that I am close to the finish line. I will be gone before this all explodes. And it will.
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Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife? 
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Teachers buying everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that"
Good point that appies to many subjects. When my wife was Teaching High School English, she also taught Drama. Clearly not a big deal now 20 years later.
We had to lay out quite a bit of money, buying supplies. For class and for the plays they put on. Even if they had a production which the school charged admission for, the money never came back to the class. Not a penny.
Money for Supplies were, makeup, props costumes, paint for the sets and even scripts. And this was back in the early 1990s.
She belonged to the local theatre companty and it used the school and they never had to pay the school. The school didn't even get a cut of the door. Yet when the town's Theatre Company came to rehearse, which was days and nights, they bumped school classes that used the Auditorium. It was very unfair.
It's all gone today. They haven't had a play in many years. It's very sad.
Wayne,
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Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife?
Whichever of you paid, I KNOW there was a fee for the kids to attend. Sadly there is nothing free any more. And they defend it with the logic that the school is there for readin', writin' and 'rithmatic and anything extracurricular the parents have to pay for.
Now I know about inflation and all, but the high school I went to (1969 grad) charged tuition (private, catholic, all buys school) and my worst year of the 4 was $220. And my family had a hard time finding it. The school then had 2000 boys in 4 grades.
NOW... the school has merged with the girls school down the road because the schools are consolidating as families have less kids, thus enrollment goes down. The enrollment is around 600 in 4 grades. That drives the price up. And the tuition..... $5000. I did not put in too many zeros. $5000. For HIGH SCHOOL!!!
But parents pay it to keep their kids out of those AWFUL City of Cleveland schools, where rather than fix the broken windows, broken by punks throwing rocks, they close off the rooms and sit the kids with 3 kids in 2 desks. Can't fix the windows. Not in the budget!! The rooms are cleaned every OTHER day. Lunch is no longer hot foods. All cold, packaged stuff. Teachers show up, do the least required, and go home. No cares about truancy. If they don't show, I still get my paycheck.
It makes me both sad and angry the way kids are pushed through schools with those ridiculous "NO child left behind" programs. They are given C and D grades to get them through, and half come out of after 12 years of school unable to read or make change for a buck.
But there is no quick turnaround. You can't suddenly make teachers care about kids who refuse to take the earbuds out of their ears during class.
People need to take off the rose colored glasses and REALLY look at this country. We are 1 generation away from being on economic par with a 3rd world country. Crime is out of control. People have no jobs, yet somehow find money to buy crack. Where does that come from? From robbing the people who DO have jobs? Where are the police? At 75% staff after budget induced layoffs....
Sad. But I'm almost done.
In the 25 years we've lived in the town, in Upstate, NY, the school has tripled in size. They concentrated on Science and Sports. They had a Science teacher that won more awards and brought in more grant money than the tax money that the town brought in.
The sports teams won many championships.
But they lost their way and the Science was gone. After this teacher who received an award presented to him by the President, had his budget cut in half. He retired and now teaches in a college and makes 10 times what he did here.
The big sports department pushed through a large budget awhile back so they could build an Olympic size swimming pool for competing.
Well it seems someone was taking back handers, because after all was said and done, they got the pool built, and it's huge. But, they can't compete because whoever they hired to build it, built it with the wrong dimensions. So it isn't regulation size.
They had to buy out the Superintendent’s contract to get him to leave.
Why hasn't anyone gone to jail? No one has even been fired. While the rest of the country is laying teachers off like crazy, our teachers are getting raises.
What a country.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it out. When we came here, we thought had come to heaven.
Wayne, I’m done,
I have no idea how to fix things when they get as bad as Eddie is describing. Schools in my area are not like that.
Michigan has a millage plan. Taxes are based on a 'State Equalized Value' of your home (roughly half the estimated sale price) times a set number from the state. Then each school disctrict or city can vote for additional millage (that's right we vote to raise taxes for local projects and school programs). In the Port Huron and Marysville area it is not uncommon for us to vote to improve the school, build a new school, and yes, even a new sports field. We take the initiative. Port Huron added new auditoriums/theaters to the two high schools within the last few years. Nice ones; 32 channel mixers (with nice full racks) in a sound booth high above and behind the seating, nice speakers (Tannoy) spread around the room, mics built into the (large) stage ..
Marysville students started this last school year in a brand new high school. I haven't seen how nice the auditorium is there yet, but it's brand new.
I know not everywhere is this fortunate.
Maybe every state should work that way so people can have the level of schools for their kids that they want. And not be stuck paying for the poor types of schooling being described by some here.
Here we have a levy on every ballot, and they fail every time. Foreclosure on homes in my city is off the charts (2 just on my street!! Personally I will never vote to increase my real estate taxes for those schools until I see better performance, less truancy, and general improvement. They rebuilt a bunch of grade schools over the last 5 years. One of them that was torn down was 11 years old. My city does things because they can, not because they need to. Meanwhile truancy is over 10% here. Why? Because half of the city is assisted housing, inhabited by parents who grew up in poverty and know nothing better, and when they DO get $25 in their pocket they spend it in crack instead of buying their kids clothes to go to school. These parents live on the thought that THEY are doing okay without knowing how to read. "The gub'ment is giving me a house and food for free. Why should I care?" And the city just stays away from those neighborhoods, pretends they don't exist, and has socials and luncheons for the school board for doing such a great job.
My area stinks. Again, I am glad to be near the end of the ride.
I was of Band Camp (well, in my case it was really Orchestra Camp...) back in the late fifties thru early sixties - and it was not free then either. My parents paid. But there were also a few scholarships made available presumably through the donations of private citizens or foundations, in which a deserving young virtuoso could take advantage.
--Mac
Same here, and it helped amd it was appreciated!
I'm gonna take the other side of this argument for the sake of discussion.
The benefits attributed to a good musical education can also be derived from other things:
Martial arts build strength, discipline and coordination...
Religion builds character, compassion, awareness of fellow man...
Scouting builds a sense of self reliance, discipline and a skill set that branches in a hundred directions...
the list could go on, but the point is that many desirable things are learned OUTSIDE school. As Mac said, it is first and foremost the role of family to notice, develop and support the talents of the kids. To blame lack of opportunity on society is a cop-out
Furthermore, One argument that is made when kids complain about the necessity of various classes is that the school experience is meant more as an EXPOSURE to the topic, and more comprehensive understanding can be pursued later. Culturally, we are already OVER-exposed to music. There's little chance that any kid will grow to adulthood and lament that he was under-stimulated musically.
But I OFTEN hear young adults lamenting that they never got prepared for real life by their school curriculum, and that they entered adulthood without a practical knowledge of real career options.
Instead, almost every young kid I meet believes he is destined to be a world-reknowned musician. Read the Craig's list musician ads... they really think they are on the way to stardom.
Many of these kids will eventually get a job in fast food and won't know enough about math to make change if the computer goes down. Don't ask how I know this.
The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time.
The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many.
Quick refernce, but you can Google many -
http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
Good points, Pat, but the thing we need to focus on is this. I know about sports building the sense of teamwork. I played football and baseball. One short season of hockey until that unfortunate incident with the stick... But I digress.
The issue is the opportunity to BE exposed to these extra curricular activities. Had there been no baseball for me, I would not have finished high school. There would have been no reason for me to go there every day because I did not care when the Battle of Hastings was fought (1066) or how much a gallon of water weighs (8.34 pounds). Baseball was my ticket. Until a knee injury. (Catchers can't catch if they can't crouch.) Some kids think their way out is tenor sax.
The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside. Martial arts, another good example. Studied 9 years. Rarely went to classes so it took me 5 years to reach black as I was starting over too often.
Daniel Tosh did a bit about giving the commencement address and how he refused to give the generic speech. "As I look out, I see doctors and lawyers". He gave the real speech. "There are felons here. Some of you will die in a DUI accident TONIGHT." Now of course he played for comedy, but how much truth was there in that comedy?
It's more a matter of the kids having choices than what they do with those choices. Baseball kept me out of jail. Music made me a living. While I have been unemployed, music has literally kept me sane. Between my dog, who could not go on without me as I am her whole life, and music, it is not an exaggeration to say that they possibly kept me alive. I don't know what I might have done without that dog giving me a reason to get up in the morning. Music, art, choral, drama group... the kids need something they are interested in, and with budget cuts taking that away, how many will go to school until the state says they can quit (16 in Ohio) and then become a bum? Probably more than we care to say.
We need arts in the schools.
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The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time.
The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many.
Quick refernce, but you Google many -
http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
you are arguing the power of the pursuit...
I'm arguing whether anything is really lost when the pursuit
is no longer mandated by an organization.
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The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside.
Both of my kids were exposed to things in school but never grew passionate about them. My wife and I tried to direct them in various extracurricular pursuits, and as soon as we stopped pushing, they stopped going.
Yet somehow as young adults they have both identified and pursued things that interest them as much as (or maybe more than) music interests me. Most of them are things I would never have thought to suggest or promote... but they intuitively knew what they want.
My point is that passion has to be identified by the individual, not by the parents or the school system.
Classic literature is full of stories about parents who tried to perpetuate their own dreams through their kids; and in most of those stories, the kid is not happy about it.
I never said every kid should have to take music classes (mandated). Yer moving the goalposts on me .. I feel that, due to the demonstrable benefits it should be available if possible.
Truth is, there are serious cuts coming to everything in the near future. Hard choices will be made on where cuts are placed. If you have something that improves the learning ability and general well-being of students, there should be serious thought before cutting.
Comparing music class to school sports isn't a fair comparison either. Band members must rent or purchase their students' instruments. How many schools require the football team to purchase their own equipment? The basketball team parents supply the balls? Answer is 'None' as far as my experiences go (yeah I played some sports). Normally IF a school has a marching band those uniforms were purchased by parents doing a 'Band Booster' event or such and raising money. Much more of the actual public's money goes toward sports than music. I doubt the real return is close to being the same, except for the "I used to be able to throw a football a quarter mile" aspect. <grin>
Also, for every Craigslist soon-to-be-music-star, there are more than a couple soon to be pro ball players out there. Quite a few of them carry that facade into college and waste their secondary education too. Not quite as many college music students riding their way thru without learning. Again, just another side of the coin.
Fun discussion.
rharv,
Both school systems that my kids have been in have pay-to-play policies in effect for sports AND band and any other extracurricular activity - which cover a good deal of the equipment on the sports side, but not on the band side. Fortunately, my senior is a tuba player and the school needs them so bad that the school provides the instrument during the year.
Football, different story. Same fee - but basically all he got was a 'crummy t-shirt'.
I come from a long line of public school teachers - I was the first to break the chain, becoming an engineer instead. When my dad was threatened with a lawsuit for grabbing a kid - after the kid yanked a handful of my dad's hair of my dad's head - I knew that teaching wasn't for me. I teach adults quite often, but sorry on the public school teacher front - not going there. Not enough pay for so much grief.
Unfortunately, I think my opinion is rather consistent with those that have made the same decision. I say 'unfortunately' because the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
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the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
Can't argue with that, and I understand your choice. I once considered teaching. Chose otherwise. I have a brother that does it though. Teaches music at one of them there universadees.
Listen to Billy Taylor or Ella Fitzgerald....great real-world education for whomever!
Great Education in Music was derived in the Army...and, I got paid for my efforts in the 7th Army Band/Europe, along with Elvis and Eddie Harris, etc., etc.
I went to high school in the 60s and for band, kids had to buy their own mouthpiece for sanitary reasons but the school provided trumpets and saxes. The world wasn't so PC then and so concerned that even with his own mouthpiece little Johnny might get AIDS from a germ walking backwards up the body of the horn after the previous student played it.
I miss the 60s. Before Yuppies, before these over protective, permissive parents, before Wii and Play Station.... before parents who protest and picket schools over free lunch programs and then drop McDonald's food off for them every day in their Hummer. When I was married to the last one we lived in a VERY Yuppie area and every night I had to come home and wash the wimp off me. Little Cameron and Schuyler with their juice boxes... I get sick thinking about this generation of worthless little wimps we are raising. Signing a document when your kid goes into little league that you will only call out positive, encouraging things... I prefer Bobby Knight to coach my kid. He will leave the school tough, not a doughy little wuss.
I grew up on the streets of inner city Cleveland, and I wouldn't trade it for all the Orange County in the world! We played tackle football with no equipment. Fast pitch baseball, not softball and soft toss with coaches pitching.... we didn't wear armor to ride a frickin' bicycle. Now.... oh man, I am off and running again.
I have to ask this question so I have a sense of perspective about the other major contributors to this discussion. How many of you were at all privileged growing up and how many went to the School of Hard Knocks where you were taught by Professor Street Smart? We had NOTHING. When I went into little league, an uncle who had more than we did ended up buying me a glove and shoes, not my father. In 1964, the Browns (and the city of Cleveland's) only championship, I went to the game as a Christmas gift from that same uncle. My father, bless his soul and rest in peace, did all he could and he did well by us as far as his means could take him, but that little bit of money that they spent on my weekly music lessons came from a sponsor, not him. And to those who I have inadvertently crossed here with my hard edged attitude, that's where it came from. I fought three times a week on my way home from grade school because someone would try to steal my baseball glove. Google Hough Riots and read the Wiki article. That's where I lived. Being a white kid living near that area was rough.
Anyway, back to topic, yes, schools are pricing themselves out of the game. I hate to think that somewhere in inner city Chicago, or Detroit, or DC the next Charlie Parker will never get the chance to play because his alcoholic, drug addicted mother and incarcerated father can't rent him a horn. Schools are that badly funded, and big corporations don't pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?
It is indeed a different time. And as I have said often, I am glad I am close to the final curtain.
Thank you for listening.
Yes it takes talent to make it, and many have made it without formal training. My point, again, is that we know how beneficial it is, let's try to keep it if we can.
Like I said, cuts will run deep soon, and many simply won't be able to keep it. But if you have a choice; I'm for it.
Thanks you for your service GDaddy.
I wasn't brought up privileged. I wasn't poor but I thought we were well off. I didn't know any better till I met other kids and went to their homes. My mother and grandmother brought me up. We owned a house in Queens, NY. To me, that made us rich. We didn't have a car. Only the richer people had cars on our block. My father had a car, but that got sold when he died.
It was the same with school. I got into Band in Junior High and we had to buy our own mouthpieces, but my mother rented a tenor sax for me from a music school/store, because the school's sax was unplayable. It had rotten pads and crud all over it. It smelled up the whole house.
My mother went the extra mile for me. That's what I meant in a previous thread that I carried my sax along with all my books 20 blocks in any weather back and forth to school. It was my sax. It was rented, so it was mine. I could never leave it at school. It would have been stolen.
I'm not trying to sound like Abe Lincoln, but we had no school busses in the city. Only the kids that were bussed in for integration had busses. All our books were ancient and from other schools and out of date. Most of our books didn't have covers anymore. We never thought about it. We thought we were ahead and modern. We were kids.
The only thing that wasn't falling apart was the building. All the things inside were old and never enough to go around. We had up to 40 kids a class. Many had to stand. We thought all schools were like that.
Very nice.
Thanks!
More than very nice.
Excellent performance captured.
I think most of us of a certain age have pretty much the same story, Wayne. When you live in s certain way, and everybody around you is the same, the things that you have become "the way it is" and you don't know different until you get out into the world. Personally I wouldn't trade my youth for anything. Music in my grade school was a joke with nuns that had no clue, outside of the choir nun. She knew music. High school was a whole new game.
Eddie,
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I have to ask this question so I have a sense of perspective about the other major contributors to this discussion. How many of you were at all privileged growing up
Well, as far as privileged, I was almost 8 before we had running water and indoor plumbing. My parents bought the house across the street for $3,500.00. Indoor plumbing and all! Dad was a coal miner and mom was a housekeeper for the funeral home, which paid $5 a day.
My mom bought my first guitar for $52.00 at the sporting goods store, or over two weeks of her salary after tax. Dad’s left hand was crushed in a coal mining accident, but he could still play Wildwood Flower in quarter notes, but nothing else. That was my first guitar lesson. I was 11. My best friends cousin was in high school and played in a garage band. The cousin would teach songs to my friend, and then my friend would teach them to me. We were doing pretty good until his cousin got ran over and killed by a drunk driver. We then had to start figuring out songs on our own.
I got a job at 16 and bought my next guitar, a 12 string Terada, which I converted to a 6 string. I taught myself from there. I won’t bore you with the rest.
Me learning to play had nothing to do with school, because we couldn’t afford an instrument for me to play in the band. I learned to play the hard way, …… because I wanted to play.
But I was privileged to have 2 hard working parents who loved me and my sisters, and always made sure there was a roof over our heads and food on the table. I was pretty lucky indeed.
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How many of you were at all privileged growing up and how many went to the School of Hard Knocks where you were taught by Professor Street Smart?
Great question. Early on we had less than nothing. My parents store got burned down (in Detroit around '68) Growing up we played street hockey with a tin can. Not one of those flimsy pop cans made nowadays, a real tin can. They lasted longer. I can remember my mother's shin bleeding from getting in the way of one. Hey, it was a tie game and I wanted to win. Don't judge me.
Do to my parent's perseverance and dedication, I feel I was privileged overall. Thankful for that.
Detroit 68 pretty much equals Cleveland 66!
Looks like a lot of us came from nothing!
Makes it all feel better when you look back, doesn't it? I think we all know we were more than fortunate to have parents that did whatever it took to give us a better life. I pray for mine every day. Dad is gone 20 years, mom 10. Somewhere up in heaven they are arguing like to did here, he is telling me I'm doing it wrong, and she is telling him to let me live my life my way.
We are all really blessed.
Thank you SO much, Mac, for putting a fresh cap on this increasingly depressing thread.
These kids are neighbors of mine, and I believe they can show us a glimmer of hope for the future, not relying on grants, drugs, cops, or anything other than a good ear and a knowledge that music can unlock the mind and all that it surveys and creates.
Thanks again.
Same here Eddie, I wouldn't change a thing.
When my father died, I was 8 and he was only 40. Because he died on the job at The Brooklyn Navy Yard, it was a big deal and a government job didn't leave my mother out in the cold. We got Social Security till we were 18, which really helped. Later in life my mother got taken care of pretty well because of my hater's job. In her 60s and 70s, she had more money than I did. lol
My mother only worked part time bookkeeping. She had a lot of experience working in offices over the years. She was a Navy wife. She went with my father wherever he was stationed.
The biggest thing was that my Grandmother owned the house we lived in. They bought it sometime in the 30s for 2500 dollars.
Later my father and my grandfather put in central heat. It was one big happy working family. Then my grandfather and father passed away and it was just me and my mom. My grandmother was my second mother. Without her my Mother couldn't work. We had a good life and were very close.
My mother encouraged music in me. No one else did. There was no music in school. She bought me a little Organ and music books that she liked. It was bittersweet. She had me learn all the songs that she and my father loved. I'd play them for her and....she’d cry. It was hard trying to understand she was happy when she was crying.
It was her love of music, and she loved music, all kinds of music that got me into it.
She exposed me to every kind of music there was, except jazz.
Our home was filled with music while my friend’s houses were full of screaming. They were probably happy, but I think we were happier.
And you're right. I wouldn't trade my childhood for anything, even with my father dying when I was so little.
As far as I was concerned we were rich. We had music and we ate a lot of cake.
So I'll have to change my answer to, "I was privileged" Money wasn't everything.
She spoiled me and I got fat...lol
Wayne,
(I know, a very sappy story, but I think we all miss the way things were)
regarding the recurring thread going on here about how bad the state of the country is...
There is a book out some may want to read titled THE FOURTH TURNING ..it is about cycles that have recurred throughout all of history. A generation of permissive parents tends to be followed by a generation of strict parents... times of disorder and chaos tend to be followed by an increased call for structure and order. etc etc etc
In a nutshell, even a pendulum only swings so far in one direction before it swings back the other way. There's no point in lamenting that life is different than it used to be... but there IS a point in predicting what GOOD things may be on the horizon.
If you only look for the bad, it's not hard to find... but its a more constructive effort to look for good every day in every situation.
Or not. Your call.
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Well, as far as privileged, I was almost 8 before we had running water and indoor plumbing. My parents bought the house across the street for $3,500.00. Indoor plumbing and all! Dad was a coal miner and mom was a housekeeper for the funeral home, which paid $5 a day.
Hey Bob... here's another way we are alike!
Our family still had and used an outhouse until I was 13 years old. Our kitchen sink was gravity fed from a nearby stream. Dad took a long roll of black plastic pipe and wedged one end under a stone in the stream, then hooked the other end to our sink. In the spring, tadpoles would often come out of the faucet when we tried to get a glass of water. In the summer time, you could feel "things" crawling across your butt when you used the outhouse. I remember once there was a rattlesnake under the outhouse. My dad went back to the house and got his 12 gauge to shoot the snake so the kids could use the toilet.
Mom and Dad never got us involved in any extracurricular activities... we lived in the boonies too far from where everything was happening. Our little parish school didn't have a music class, art class, or any school sponsored sports. Yet, every one of the 5 kids grew up to have passionate hobbies, stable marriages, productive careers, and none of us are in therapy. Well, Except for this recurring dream of being pulled into the toilet by a monster serpent, we all turned out fairly sane.
;-)
My point is that we are the product of our own choices. When society fails to provide opportunities, it is still possible to create your own. Every loser I know blames his lack of success on somebody else. Every successful person I know had a moment when he considered his situation and made specific plans to rise above it.
in spite of the rhetoric, I don't have a strong opinion on this topic... I'm just playing Devil's advocate. Sure , I think it's a good thing when schools provide all sorts of effective ways to enrich the lives and minds of the students... including music
Music...grades 6 to 12...free instruments.
Sports...grades 6 go 12...free uniforms...buy your own skates.
I taught English in a french speaking high school, 1971. I hated it. Quit to work in forestry.
A brother and sister both teach. 85k a year and 3 months off. Nice work if you can stand doing it for 5 hours a day. And all they do is complain. I told my whining brother not to start recently, he needs a real dose of a 12 hour shift outside a sawmill at -45 C or F it's the same that cold, piling railway switch ties which are green, and up to 16 feet long. Alone. Don't drop one. For minimum wage, and a flea infested room and bunkhouse food.
We seem to be living in fear of Monday morning. I'm going to ride out the market I guess. I mean my wife's retirement money, in a fund run by me, is not going to liquidate and go in to gold.
No fear of Monday morning. It will come and go.
And like Pat I try very hard to see the good.
However, when you can see change coming, it's a good idea to think about how you want that change to occur and be ready to help shape it.
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However, when you can see change coming, it's a good idea to think about how you want that change to occur and be ready to help shape it.
well said!
I just popped in and saw this thread. Wish I had piped in earlier.
I had about 8 piano lessons and then my music teacher moved away. I lived in a very small town. He was a minister and played piano like no one I had ever heard. I then learned some through glee club in high school and a lot I just learned on my own, hunt and peck, finding the keys... trying to play and well..... I became our church pianist at age 16. I had only been playing for less than 4 years.
One thing I heard and remembered years ago: The Richest Child is Poor without Music!
Now for a piece of fun from my sense of humor: I started out years ago with nothing and today I still have pretty much all of it left.
I always loved music and only got into digital music around 1995... and BIAB and PT expedited my musical abilities quite a bit........ But I learned the MOST from the veterans on this forum... if I called their names, you would know them. But I'd forget to mention someone, so I'll just say thanks to everyone whoever helped me with BIAB, PT, RealBand....... and teaching me how to record and produce CDs. THANKS!!!!!!!!!
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We seem to be living in fear of Monday morning.
Why live in fear of Monday morning? We spend a seventh of our lives on Mondays.
Guido
I, for one, would like to see strings instruction introduced into more schools. I know some “elite” schools have it, but the vast majority don’t offer it. I think the response from students would be tremendous if they were afforded opportunities to play instruments they consider “cool”, AND they could get school credit for doing so.
I paid for my son to have private lessons on piano for about 7 years, and then gave him guitar lessons myself for 3 years after that. Even though he went to private school thru his freshman year, he was never given the chance to perform on either at school. His 3 years of public school were even worse.
The schools want brass and bass drums or tom toms. The kids want to play and hear guitars, pianos or synths and drum sets.
If schools were to teach the instruments that kids want to play, I think enrollment in music courses would explode. The kids would even willingly compete with each other for a spot on a band they actually thought was “cool”, (or “kewl”)! These bands could easily be incorporated into sports, and they would be a helluva lot more popular than the standard high school band.
Instead, schools insist on teaching them to play instruments they hate and that they’ll never even touch or own after high school, (with extremely rare exceptions). Teach them to play something they think is “cool” like guitar and piano, and there’s at least a chance they’ll continue to play, or at least dabble in it for the rest of their lives. (No flaming from brass players please!)
Brass should be mandatory. LOL.
I learned brass at 53. Best thing I ever did.
And I took piano accordion for 3 years, and piano for 6 months.
My wife took piano for most of her life up to 23, and has 2 music degrees from a famous university. Makes for some great arguments. Not to mention she has a teaching degree too. Great. Then my oldest has all the degrees. Just don't argue with him, he seems to turn anyone into a bowl of jello. Odd that.
Monday might work itself out, but it seems a bigger meltdown looms. I can still hunt and trap, have the 5000 acres I need, and I know there are at least 40 beaver and 25 or so otters, along with fish, ducks, geese, and all the partridge I'd ever need. And enough wood for about 200 years, and I can cut it, burn it, sell it...
Don't lose the faith, but have a backup plan.
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Why live in fear of Monday morning?
Cuz Monday morning, it gave me no warning of what was to be. And HOW could it leave and not take me.....
