Is there an equivalent way to share and discuss cover songs with BIAB accompaniment, like the User Showcase. I know there are sites where you can download BIAB songs but I haven't seen anything designed to share techniques and ideas about the BIAB content. I don't compose my own songs but would really like to see how other users have used BIAB styles with cover songs. I suspect there are more users like me than those who compose but perhaps the copyright issues are too much?
Tony
You can fix the song up, get your tracks all rolled up, and then post the thing without a melody. In most cases for the 'songbook', I can tell what song it is by about 3 bars in. Unless there are no chord changes!!
There's no problem with that, I'd stick it in the user showcase and call it my tune, we'll guess it and then we can talk, or say what we'd do to it, in our not so freaking humble opinion.
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You can fix the song up, get your tracks all rolled up, and then post the thing without a melody. In most cases for the 'songbook', I can tell what song it is by about 3 bars in. Unless there are no chord changes!!
Thanks John, that may be a way to showcase your vast experience but for us lesser mortals we would need to hear the melody with the accompaniment to appreciate how the cover has been created. BIAB sells itself mainly as an accompaniment program and I am sure most buyers stay with cover songs however I haven't found any exchange of examples on how to work creatively with covers. Is there any way to do this on a website not connected with PG music or does copyright kill the idea?
Tony
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Thanks John, that may be a way to showcase your vast experience but for us lesser mortals we would need to hear the melody with the accompaniment to appreciate how the cover has been created. BIAB sells itself mainly as an accompaniment program and I am sure most buyers stay with cover songs however I haven't found any exchange of examples on how to work creatively with covers. Is there any way to do this on a website not connected with PG music or does copyright kill the idea?
Tony
actually, Tony, there has been quite a bit of forum discussion about how to achieve signature licks and generally how to use this software to make killer sounding covers. Search the forum for phrases like "signature lick" and you'll probably find more than one good discussion.
There may be laws against posting other peoples' songs, but so far there's no law against talking about how to use software to duplicate copyrighted material
Check the TIPS AND TRICKS forum for starters
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...but so far there's no law against talking about how to use software to duplicate copyrighted material
I highly suspect there is a term for discussion of illegal activities and it is illegal. There is actually a fine line between discussion and execution in the eyes of the court. We just sent our prior Governor of the State to jail for 14 years for "talking about" an illegal activity regardng selling of the senate seat.
Perhaps a disclaimer bar for the forum:
The disclaimer would state that - the information on the site is all hypothetical and can not be used in a court of law. It would also state that the site does not condone use of software for copywrite infringement and that you are not a employee of the government nor are you working with a government employee at all 
.
or,
Illegal/Dangerous Activities:
"Explicit "how to" discussions of illegal and/or dangerous activities, or posts advocating such activities, are prohibited; such as: how to make explosives, manufacture crack, steal software, hack into the CIA, use software to infringe on copywritted material ... 
"
But that kind of content just draws the attention and notice of Government bots which search the web for illegal activities.
Remember the first rule of fight club? "..you don't talk about fight club" - Brad Pitt 
But then Perhaps I need my own Disclaimer:
"I am not an attorney and any advice is not to be construed as legal advice. You might even want to ignore my advice. Actually, there are plenty of real attorneys that you might want to ignore as well."
Dan,
The difference is that the things you describe really are illegal. But It's not against the law to create cover tunes. Every band does it. Its against the law to DISTRIBUTE them, and when you post them to a public site, you are in effect distributing them. That's why we don't post covers here.
Sigh. I doubt that laws against distribution were meant to facilitate the destruction of healthy amateurism in the social media age. As usual, the world moves must too fast for the music industry to process and it will pay the penalty of unintended consequences in the end.
Stopping well-intentioned people from singing songs around the new virtual campfire will get them precisely nowhere.
We've got to protect our friends at PGMUSIC from any legal danger, though. So any solution has got to have no connection here I would think.
You know this has the makings of a really good business model for a web site imo. It's a want and I would suspect not just for BIAB folks but probably many other musicians.
I think it must be possible to do because there are thriving karaoke sites. And what is karaoke after all - singing to premade covers. The popular K sites charge a fee and I'm assuming some of this fee covers licensing of the cover tunes used there. In the scenario we're talking about here - the covers would be played and/or sung so the karaoke tracks wouldn't be necessary. So the fee would cover licensing.
This should be relatively easy to set up if someone had the start up money and was willing to take the risk. JMHO.
If that kind of site existed would you be willing to pay to be a member to post your covers?
Josie
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If that kind of site existed would you be willing to pay to be a member to post your covers?
then we would have come full circle, starting with getting paid a lot to play, then getting paid less, then playing for free at open mics, and finally paying for the opportunity to play.
Given the progression, I'd say you are exactly right, there's an untapped niche, and where there's a niche, there's money to be made by somebody. But Probably not the musicians.
There are already music festivals where the groups pay to play "for the exposure"
so the precedent has been set. It will work.
CLOUD-O-METER
DARK_\___SUNNY
I don't even know what is meant by the term "Cover Song". would somebody take the time to explain this to me....Thanks Hank ( and I've been involved with music for a long time).
From Wiki:
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In popular music, a cover version or cover song, or simply cover, is a new performance or recording of a contemporary or previously recorded, commercially released song or popular song. It can sometimes have a pejorative meaning implying that the original recording should be regarded as the definitive or "authentic" version, and all others merely lesser competitors, alternatives or tributes (no matter how popular).
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I don't even know what is meant by the term "Cover Song".
When you play anything that somebody else wrote and recorded, that is playing a cover song.
I am following this thread with great interest. While there are FORUM rules here about posting non original music (the forum IS indeed for original work made with BIAB/RB) but now we are into defining "distribution". My take on people swapping cover songs that they have recreated in their own image with BIAB/RB is NOT what the term "distribution" means in this context unless there is a monetary exchange. I consider it nothing more than an electronic "jam night" where people are sharing ideas.
Good points being made here from both sides of the discussion.
Copyright is the "right to copy" -- it has nothing to do with money. Freely distributing cover songs is a copyright violation.
Eddie,
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My take on people swapping cover songs that they have recreated in their own image with BIAB/RB is NOT what the term "distribution" means in this context unless there is a monetary exchange. I consider it nothing more than an electronic "jam night" where people are sharing ideas.
Creating an arrangement of a song and forwarding to other people is, as I understand it, infringing the part of the copyright act relating to the right to reproduce works. No money needs to change hands to fall foul of this section of the act.
Here's a link to a document at Tunecore.
http://www.tunecore.com/guides/sixrights
Regards,
Noel
The ticket would be a closely guarded password protected web site where they could be stored, and shared with members only, that are approved for admission. This would be the only real way.
in the peer to peer prosecution cases, it didn't matter whether the people made money. They got fined anyway. The offense was distributing property owned by somebody else.
Also, the forum rules prohibit posting any song to which you don't hold ALL the rights. Even if you completely change it from a 60s pop song to a Jazz or bluegrass style, if it retains enough of the original song to be recognizeable, you're still playing off the goodwill attached to somebody else's work. Otherwise, why would you want to record your version of a cover?
When somebody licenses somebody else's song, they almost always redo the song in their own image... and they pay for the right to do it. Usurping that right as though we are entitled to it is shaky ground. Although it would probably go unnoticed, I'd hate to put PGMusic in a compromising situation.
Again, this is just my opinion. I'm no lawyer. But when in doubt, I tend to err on the side that I've never seen associated with a lawsuit.
Here's where this gets fun, Pat.
Eddie calls Pat and says "Hey I have a gig in 3 weeks and need a guitar player. I am going to send you a CD of the stuff we will need to learn. Nothing major. It's a themed "British Invasion" party we will be playing. Some Beatles, some Stones, some Herman's Hermits, some Freddy and the Dreamers, a couple by the Moody Blues, Peter and Gordon..."
By the letter of the law as you described it, I would be breaking the law by sending you a CD with the 40 songs we need to learn for the gig.
Now that brings up the question... HOW do I get the music to you? By the letter of the law, am I required to go out and buy you a copy of Meet The Beatles, Help, Rubber Soul, Sgt Pepper..... and then Sticky Fingers, Get Your Ya Ya's Out.... buy a copy of every CD from which songs are plucked?
If that is the case, every cover band in the USA is guilty because songs get passed around for learning purposes many times every day.
Now, let's go one further because I like to get ridiculous and look at every possible scenario.
What if the show is all MY music? Would the players I recruit have to buy my CD to learn it and play it?
I always used the analogy of books in a library. Once I read The Stand, I gave it to someone else to read. A second person got to enjoy the book and Stephen King didn't get another penny from it. The library gives books and music away for use every day. Patrons get to enjoy the art, and then return it when they are done, possibly having copied the CD while they had it.
DMCA is a wide broom.... and now SOPA wants to do things like charge a fee if you have a sound byte on your WEB PAGE???
Great topic full of gray areas. This is now outside the scope of what PG policy is in the forum. We all understand that they want only original music here. This has now moved to "what if"....
Eddie,
they are really no gray areas in the situations you describe.
Yes, it against copyright laws to make a "This is what I want you all to learn" CD. However, everyone does it and no one will ever get in trouble over it -- but that doesn't mean it isn't against the copyright laws.
Libraries purchase books and only can only be checked out by one user at a time (even the electronic books have this restriction).
Your music -- ha, ha -- if someone else publishes it then you can't make multiple copies and give that out (I am not too sure about this one).
Kevin
Try this guys. Go to this link and register, and then go to lounge, and song file and see what you get.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/GAPers/This is an old forum we built a long time ago in acid planet, and i have used for since with a lot of the cakewalk crowd. membership only and not on the beaten path. I then open a fileden account and linked a old country tune from RB.
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Copyright is the "right to copy" -- it has nothing to do with money. Freely distributing cover songs is a copyright violation.
As far as music goes it's a shame that this system ever was chosen as the medium for writers to get paid.It just keeps Lawyers employed. What is so wrong about me posting my version of a cover song to this Forum for criticism so that when I go to a club, that pays royalties sort of, and play it, it sounds good.Oh that's right. My ability to do covers with BIAB may bring in extra revenue for PG.So what!.It's my ability & PG's program not any one particular song.
BTW no I will not pay to post.
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Libraries purchase books and only can only be checked out by one user at a time (even the electronic books have this restriction).
But does the author get a royalty EVERY TIME his hard work is enjoyed?
All you have to do is get permission from the copyright holders and you can do what you want. Why is the creative sweat and tears (and the big bucks to record them) any different than any other endeavor? Hey, leave your tools outside or unlocked so I can come by and borrow them when I want. Just because you paid for them, I don't think you should be able to claim ownership over them.
"Copyright" is a two edged sword.
On one hand, it's a shame we can't share our renditions of old songs for educational purposes. I'm all for being able to do that. It could be kinda like teaching others a new song at a jam session.
...............
On the other hand, I started working on creating a series of music theory lessons in a BIAB format a while back with the intentions of copyrighting and selling them. But then it occurred to me, ... if I sell one copy, ..... then I may as well give the rest of them away.
Why bother working to create something and market it when folks just buy it once and then post it on Rapidshare for others to download for free?
That kinda dampens the creative spirit.
So, ...... we have the two edged sword.
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Here's where this gets fun, Pat.
Eddie calls Pat and says "Hey I have a gig in 3 weeks and need a guitar player. I am going to send you a CD of the stuff we will need to learn. Nothing major. It's a themed "British Invasion" party we will be playing. Some Beatles, some Stones, some Herman's Hermits, some Freddy and the Dreamers, a couple by the Moody Blues, Peter and Gordon..."
By the letter of the law as you described it, I would be breaking the law by sending you a CD with the 40 songs we need to learn for the gig.
Yeah, it DOES get interesting. If you hand me the CD at band practice its technically illegal, but if nobody is aware of the transaction there would be very little (if any) risk of prosecution.
But if you MAIL it to me, it could be a federal offense on top of the copyright infringement.
But even then IMO there's very little risk of individuals without deep pockets being targeted for prosecution (unless they were already watching you for some other reason, in which case they might use it just to get you in custody)
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Now that brings up the question... HOW do I get the music to you? By the letter of the law, am I required to go out and buy you a copy of Meet The Beatles, Help, Rubber Soul, Sgt Pepper..... and then Sticky Fingers, Get Your Ya Ya's Out.... buy a copy of every CD from which songs are plucked?
IMO, that's a moot question because these guys aren't interested in small potatoes. But a company like PGMusic is a different story, and that's why we should diligently protect their best interests
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If that is the case, every cover band in the USA is guilty because songs get passed around for learning purposes many times every day.
yep, but small potatoes don't get much attention. Even in the peer to peer prosecutions, the only people who got singled out were those who had thousands of songs on their computers for anybody to snag
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Now, let's go one further because I like to get ridiculous and look at every possible scenario.
What if the show is all MY music? Would the players I recruit have to buy my CD to learn it and play it?
if it's your music and you own all the rights to it you can distribute it any way you want. How can you steal from yourself? WHo would press charges?
Personally, I'd just like to protect amateurs and hobbyists from the misguided and wholly unjustified wrath of corporate lawyers, while at the same time protecting the legitimate rights of composers to not be ripped off.
What I would ..love.. to see is something like a onetime lifetime license to cover anything on say the Spotify catalog with nominal distribution of perhaps 10,000 totally free downloads. Anything you charge for, not covered. Anything that would happen to go viral on youtube and perhaps cause damage to the artist, you'd have to either take down or figure out separately. But for 99% of hobbyists just looking to enjoy the playing of music with online friends, we could clear the unnecessary BS out of way.....
No?
you mention Youtube... I'm surprised that so many non-public domain songs are there, and nobody seems to be telling anybody to take them down.
Maybe that's the answer... post your songs on Youtube and PM the link to your buddies.
If you get contacted by a lawyer, then take it down.
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if it's your music and you own all the rights to it you can distribute it any way you want. How can you steal from yourself? WHo would press charges?
With the lawyer I have, he would sue and I would take me for MILLIONS!!! I might even put myself in jail!!
now there's a song waiting to be written
Were any of you guys able to download the file and play it? just wondering?
Scrolling through the discussion it seems all US based.
The world is a different place outside your borders.
We even have businesses that are here because of your litigious state(s).
Diamond Aircraft who make mostly 2 seat trainers is an example. 60 miles from the border. My buddy works there. The company has stated that they would prefer to be in the St. Louis area. But it is very much harder to sue a company based here. Our sandbox, our laws.
I have no qualms about sitting and discussing any details about the notes in bars 20 to 30 of Satin Doll. You cannot, even if the discussion resides on a hard drive, demand royalties for 'talking' about someone else's work. You don't have to pay every time you speak of what happened at 3:30 of a movie. You just can't play back any more than what is described by the 'doctrine of fair dealing.'
In Canada, our fair dealing exclusion to copywrite MAY include the whole 'song'. As long as the intention is acemdemic. But if I give you a weekly song in band in a box format, that plays the whole thing and we are really sharing then you NIX the fair dealing thing. You were then distributing the work.
It gets more confusing when it comes to performing the thing. No cover, no gate, then the bar or restaurant is already paying (here it's per seat and the total hours you are open). So the annual licence you get requires you to pay, or they will show up and shut your equipment down. (Maybe)
Confused? Add in other countries and you have more versions that you can shake a stick at.
My son the prof. tells me that the academic line in Canada is broad but restrictive and the American version is loose and less restrictive, so that in the end the result is close to the same. (Profs photocopy stuff or post it now on the web for almost every class).