Distorted sound/no sound/no MIDI throughput in Win 7 Ultimate

Following is the text of a message I just sent to my four closest and most accomplished musician friends, all of whom are highly skilled with computers as well. It summarizes my experience since Thursday, May 10, through yesterday, Sunday, May 13. I am eminently open to suggestion.

Quote:

Gentlemen,

I'm at the end of my rope on this. I'm about to put my DAW in the shop for resolution. Here's the deal.

Two soundcards (Roland/Edirol UA4-FX and Presonus AudioBox USB) have briefly produced beautiful sound before degenerating into horribly distorted sound completely unrecognizable as the source. Both cards definitely had Win 7 64-bit drivers. Both had the latest version of the driver. The Roland actually never produced anything but distortion. The Presonus degenerated. I uninstalled, reinstalled, and briefly had good sound before deteriorating again. I was never able to get any MIDI throughput through either card. Using the Onscreen Keyboard in Reason 6 produced the same distorted sound with several devices and patches.

I took the Presonus back to the store, where it tested as being in perfect working order. I then spent an hour with Microsoft Support via chat, to no avail. I will take my MIDI controller keyboard (M-Audio Keystation 49e, which was working before) to the same store to test it as well. I have messages in to Propellerhead, Presonus, and the MIDI school I was supposed to start today. I don't think the problem lies with any of them, but I am trying to cover every base. [I have also checked their forums and FAQs as well as Googling extensively.]

This is looking to me like a Windows issue. It has been suggested that it may somehow be a 32-bit vs. 64-bit issue, but I'm not sure how. The only thing that I can think of is that this version of Windows is only licensed for two processors, and I have four. But everything else works perfectly.

I am hoping that this will resonate with something in your collective experience. If so, or if you think of something I haven't covered, please let me know.

Win 7 Ultimate 64, Gigabyte Z68AP-D3, Intel i5 2500K 3.3 GHz quad CPU, 16 Gb RAM, Zotac GeForce GTX 560 2 Gb GPU.

Thanks,
Richard

The last instruction I left them was to update the BIOS.

Quote:

The last instruction I left them was to update the BIOS.

Cool! I bet that does it.

BTW Folks tend to shy away from BIOS updates 'cause if you mess up the update the board is trashed or at least needs to go back to the manufacturer.

The Pro should ALWAYS power the mobo with an Uninterruptible Power Supply before starting a BIOS upgrade.

If the power should get interrupted before the BIOS upgrade is finished, well, that's usually what BRICKS the mobo...

--Mac

This just in from the technician:

Quote:

Good afternoon!

I'm ready to call in a priest for a good exorcism. We've swapped out EVERYTHING inside this box and the issue is still occuring. System board, memory, processor, power supply, Cooling, video card... Everything except for the case.. Which is our next stop to eliminate the case* as the source of the problem.

I've spent about 2 hrs on it so far today, and I've got to work on some others PC's. I've got some parts I've got to install for some other customers.. And if I can't get back to yours today before I leave (at 6 today) I'll come in a hr early tomorrow to dedicate to resolving this. However I SHOULD (key word here) be able to set-up the components outside the box before I leave (if the parts installs go smoothly).

I've also looked into the [Presonus] Audiobox. It's not a soundcard, but mostly a Analog to Digital coverter that accepts professional quality Mic's/Devices. The sound still goes through the systemboard sound chip** for audio processing, so you were short changing yourself with the original SB and it's low-end built in sound card. The new one support 7.1 dolby.

thanks for your patience and have a good afternoon/evening!

*NZXT H2 Silent case
**???

Oh boy...this is starting to sound weird! His comments about your Prosonus, the audio card and the system on-board audio chip have me scratching my head and saying "huh?"

Yeah, I've got to agree on the comment on the Prosonus. Yes, it's an A/D converter, and it's also a D/A converter and mixer, but no, it doesn't use the onboard sound chip. Nor is the processing done on that chip. This guy apparently doesn't know what he's doing, at least as far as your sound device goes, and that, to me, isn't something that I would trust.

How is he monitoring this noise? What I'm asking is does he have a pair of monitors plugged into the Main Outs of the Prosonus, or at least into the headphone out? Does the Prosonus have some sort of software monitoring and mixer application, and is that set correctly?

If he's changed out everything that he says he has, I'm pretty sure it's not the case. MIGHT be the power supply, but I'm sure it's not the case. Well, I'll put one exception on that. If the case has USB connections, and he didn't disconnect them, and one of them is bad, it's possible that it's messing up the USB buss, but one of the first things I would have done would have been to disconnect the case USB connectors and run just from the mainboard.

I hope you guys can figure this out.

Gary

This dude normally probably makes boxes for gaming. He is clueless as to building a DAW and what the PreSonus is.

Get your money back ASAP.

Spend it on a Sweetwater creation station and be done with the whole mess.

I may have missed it, but has anybody suggested you take that USB interface to someone else's house and install it on another computer? Or a second computer of your own (but I don't think you have 2 if I recall from past conversations.) just to take your computer out of the equation? Also if it is set up as your system sound card you should be able to play CDs and streaming internet radio through it. Eliminate as much as possible.

The ONLY reason I would doubt the BIOS is the definition of the term itself. Basic Input Output System. His system component (USB port) is not failing. Also given that 17,936 billion computers (I statistic I made up for this post) have outdated BIOS and don't have this issue I would question the BIOS as the issue. Using the USB bus and not the board's data bus leads me to believe that BIOS is not the problem.

Also, to whoever suggested the USB data bus has been overtaxed, unless he is playing with RB, moving the mouse, printing, dumping photos from a camera, etc... he isn't using all the USB devices at once. They don't consume bandwidth just being plugged in, only when there is I/O happening. And just for an example, one of my computers has a webcam, a printer, a USB turntable, a CD storage jukebox, a PID, a iPod Shuttle charger and 2 thumb drives plugged into the USB ports (with a hub obviously) RIGHT NOW and there is no performance degradation at all. And that is on an older Dell without the horsepower Richard has.

I would also doubt it is the pwoer supply because of how the USB draws power. It comes from the PSU connection to the mobo, not from one of the power rails. And again, not all of the USB ports are drawing until used, and this is a new computer with like a large power supply. If the power supply were bad, again given that the power is coming through the mail connector to the motherboard, he would likely be seeing a lot of other problems. With the drives each being on their own 5v power rail, they could be fine and not indicate a PSU issue. Particularly with SATA conenctions....
Step one for me would have been try it on another computer.

This fellow has not a clue...

Please read back through the thread. I have posted progress reports at every step. Everything has been substituted except the case. The Presonus has been tested on another system and found good. I agree that the man doesn't know from sound.

I don't, Mac, or the guy ripping Richard off?

Eddie,

Considering that Mac’s response wasn’t to you, but to Gary saying this about the Tech guy:

Quote:

This guy apparently doesn't know what he's doing, at least as far as your sound device goes, and that, to me, isn't something that I would trust.

...... , then I think it’s safe to assume Mac was talking about the guy working on Richard’s PC, ...not you.

There are three things that can go wrong on a pc

Hardware
Software
Operator (in this case the tech)

Well he's changed all the hardware, so now he can start on the software.
And when he's finished with that you have to change the operator.
It looks like you should have done that earlier though.

It's being worked on by the Service Department at the Marietta, GA, Micro Center, a regional chain with whom I have been doing business for years. They have done other work for me and done it well. It was on that basis that I brought this machine (which they built, but obviously did not test after assembly) back to them for repair.

I will see them tomorrow about assigning another technician. I have a feeling they will tell me that they have had enough (it has been in the shop for nearly two weeks), in which case will I have a thousand-dollar collection of parts which does not produce sound and which I can't even sell. What do you individually and collectively recommend as a next step?

Richard,

It sucks that you’re having all these problems. I think it has to somehow lie in the people who built it for you.

Mine has been rock solid, but of course it was built by iBUYPOWER. After the build, it went through a 2 day run in and testing before shipping.

I know most of our components are the same, but here’s my spec sheet. Please state what is different on yours.

Quote:

iBUYPOWER HS11

Intel® Core™ i5-2500K Processor (4x 3.30GHz/6MB L3 Cache)

Liquid CPU Cooling System [SOCKET-1155] - ARC Dual Silent High Performance Fan Upgrade (Push-Pull Airflow)

8 GB [4 GB X 2] DDR3-1600 Memory Module - Corsair XMS3

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 - 2GB - Single Video Card - Zotac

Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 Motherboard

Thermaltake 850 Watt W0319RU Power Supply

1 TB Hard Drive -- 32M Cache, 7200 RPM, 6.0Gb/s - Single Drive

Optical Drive (24X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive - Black)

3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium + Office Starter 2010 (Includes basic versions of Word and Excel) - 64-Bit

NZXT Tempest 410 Gaming Case - Black

iBUYPOWER Labs - Internal Expansion ([6-Port] NZXT Internal USB Expansion System + Bluetooth & Wireless N Modules)

3 Year Standard Warranty Service

It’s possible that it’s hardware or software related, but I suspect incompetence on the part of the builders.

Did you buy the parts from them?

I've never heard of a problem like you're having. That's the reason I've stayed out of the discussion.

One difference that I see right away is that Bob is using Win 7x64 Home Premium and Richard is using Win7x64 Ultimate. I have never liked using network specific software for home or audio work. The Ultimate version has added network security apps that cause slower startups and, in some cases, conflicts with media applications typically used in more intensive media applications. While Ultimate, with its necessary network security, is needed in enterprise business applications, I find it adds complications in media systems. YMMV. Still, that doesn't seem to explain the distortion..or does it?

Ryz should take the box home and install the BIOS upgrade himself. Had he done that in the first place, this whole nightmare would not be happening.

Can't guarantee it is a BIOS upgrade problem, but the signs have been pointing there from the beginning of this thread. DEFINITELY the next thing to try -- and quite often ends up being the last thing tried, as it is known to work.

--Mac

I would make them buy the whole thing back. Shop for a properly spec'ed super machine from one of these sources:

1. Sweetwater music: http://www.sweetwater.com/creation_station/
2. ADK: http://www.adkproaudio.com/
3. Rain computing: http://raincomputers.com/products/

There are other companies as well to consider, but these folks have already worked out these type of issues from the get-go. These are boxes spec'ed just for high-demand audio work (for which Richard isn't even doing - he's not doing 50+ tracks of I/O - but the kids at the Micro Center don't have a clue which was made crystal clear when they piped back what the PreSonus was).

No, the computer you buy from one of the above will not seem to be spec'ed as highly in some performance areas as the spec-it-yourself method, but you will not have to deal with the issues that Richard is dealing with now. These are ground-up spec machines for audio work. Gamers need not apply - go buy your alienware and clone boxes with neon lights inside from someplace else.

Richard - unless you have lots of personal content to move back off the machine, demand your money back - that would be my advice.

It really blows that you are dealing with this after the excitement you posted about finally getting a new box.

For my next music box, I'm buying from one of the above 3 or I'm joining the dark side and going Mac. I've had to fart around with Windows 7 driver issues on my new lappy, and was able to get it to be functional and fun with my recent Tascam US800 purchase, but I don't get enough time to do this hobby any longer to waste another second trying to sort things out myself. This Samsung lappy I bought about 9 months ago now decides now and then it just doesn't like to work for anything - even simple office function. I've exorcised it 6 ways to breakfast with all manner of anti-malware and anti-virus, etc. At least with an Apple, the boxes are designed ground-up for I/O, musicians in mind - and I've got a 'Genius Bar' less than 5 miles from the house. Cost will be about the same - properly spec'ed and supported PC from one of the above 3 or a Mac with similar performance features. Choices are more limited, but I'm getting crotchety about choice lately, give me fewer choices, just those that work and thank you I'll be recording and editing.

Isn't it just so funny in a sad way that so many people never have ONE problem and others have them non stop? I run my RB on a home built computer with an Asus motherboard and an Intel whatever dual core with 4gb or RAM and the only issues I have were the ones I caused myself by trying to push RB beyond what it could do. And in the end, PG fixed THAT problem. My system runs like a knife through butter. And here is Richard with a brand new computer having major problems.... just no logic to it.

I still don't think it is BIOS related but we'll see. Because it is the USB bus you are dealing with, I doubt it is BIOS related. My BIOS may be 3 revs old, as are half of them in the country, and there is not a BIOS issue. If other devices work on his USB, that would steer me away from the USB bus being the issue.

I still want to see the Presonus work on another computer.

Quote:

I still want to see the Presonus work on another computer.

Both audio and MIDI function of the Presonus have been tested by a department manager and worked perfectly in the music store where I bought it. I took my MIDI controller keyboard in separately and tested it, too; it also worked.

Quote:

One difference that I see right away is that Bob is using Win 7x64 Home Premium and Richard is using Win7x64 Ultimate. I have never liked using network specific software for home or audio work. The Ultimate version has added network security apps that cause slower startups and, in some cases, conflicts with media applications typically used in more intensive media applications. While Ultimate, with its necessary network security, is needed in enterprise business applications, I find it adds complications in media systems. YMMV. Still, that doesn't seem to explain the distortion..or does it?

I bought my copy of Windows 7 Ultimate from a Microsoft employee who is also a computer musician and uses it on his DAW without issue.

Quote:

Ryz should take the box home and install the BIOS upgrade himself. Had he done that in the first place, this whole nightmare would not be happening.

Can't guarantee it is a BIOS upgrade problem, but the signs have been pointing there from the beginning of this thread. DEFINITELY the next thing to try -- and quite often ends up being the last thing tried, as it is known to work.

--Mac

If I felt qualified to do the BIOS I would have. I don't. I have stressed this to the technician, who tells me that he did do so. However, when I visited the Gigabyte site it appeared that there were several updates, including several that pertained specifically to audio. Whether he has done these updates I have no idea. I can't hold his hand.

Today they are going to try substituting the case, the only component which has not been replaced yet. If this does not work I will try to return everything and start again elsewhere.

Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 mainboard

Intel Core i5 2500K CPU

Zotac NVIDIA GeForce GTX560 2 Gb GPU

Corsair 8 Gb D3 1600 C9 DIMM x4

Corsair H80 Hydro Cooling Unit

Coolmaster SilentPro Gold 800W PSU

Oztech 60 Gb Sata 6.0 SSD

Western Digital Caviar Black 7,200 RPM 1 Tb HD 64 Mb cache

ASUS 24x D/L DVDRW SATA

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However, when I visited the Gigabyte site it appeared that there were several updates, including several that pertained specifically to audio. Whether he has done these updates I have no idea.

RED FLAG.

Those "updates" do NOT have anything to do with the BIOS. Do a quick Google on BIOS and read what it actually is. BIOS is Basic Input Output System. BIOS is where you tell the computer "Yes I have SATA drives. Enable them." and "Allow me to wake my computer up remotely." and "The correct time and date is..." and "Boot from HDD first, CD second...." and "Front side bus speed"..... BIOS tweaking is skiing the black diamond slope. If you don't know what Front Side Bus is, it's a good idea to leave it alone, just like if you can't ski, stay on the bunny trail.

What you are seeing is DRIVER updates. Because the provided sound "card" is onboard, it is no less a sound card, and it still requires drivers. In your case, you are not using that. Your "sound card" is a USB device. Thus all you are doing with the computer is interfacing a USB device. That can be a mouse, a keyboard, a printer, an iPod or iPhone dock, a web cam, a reading light, a small heater for your coffee cup... there are a TON of USB devices out there (some of them are hilarious). In your case it is a Presonus sound making device. THAT device will have drivers.

(Refer back to an OLD discussion. Drivers are NOT magic little packets of fairy dust. A driver is nothing more than a small piece of software that tells your operating system how to interact with a piece of hardware. This is why I laugh when people harp on updating drivers. If it worked YESTERDAY, some company offering a newer driver is not going to fix something that is broken today. You ahev to find what broke it. I can't tell you how many repairs I have done for people who insist on downloading new video drivers. WHY? Your video works fine. Just leave it alone until it breaks. THEN try a new driver. Also read what the new driver is supposed to improve before disturbing something that isn't broken.)

There IS obviously something wrong. And Mac is right. Your computer is not in good hands with whoever it is you have working on it given the level of questions they are asking. It sounds like they build computers for gamers and for grandma to get her email and this is out of their league.

To Eddie, Mac, and others,

I'm a smart guy. Until now I have either built or upgraded all my own PCs. And I know the difference between the BIOS and drivers--when I'm paying attention. Problem is, I've got ADD big time, which can make it difficult to follow instructions. It is severe enough that it has cost me jobs in the past because I failed to perform some essential task.

In fact, I just got back from the Tag Office, where I had to buy a replacement sticker for my boat trailer because between the time I bought the original and the time I got home (in December of last year) I forgot to put it on the license plate. I have no idea where the first one is. Fortunately they were kind enough to just print me a duplicate for a couple of bucks and send me on my way. Equally fortunately, I haven't been stopped for an expired tag in the meantime.

So, about the BIOS? I'll leave critical technical operations to the pros.

I have been offered (nearly) the best of all possible worlds.

I went to the shop and asked for a manager, who got the technician. We had a great three-way conversation. I expressed my concerns about the fact that I have spent almost a kilobuck on the PC alone, not counting software, peripherals, assembly and repairs without effective result. This is now the seventh business day that they have had it on their bench.

Bottom line: The tech thinks he has it sussed out. I'm taking him a set of professional headphones--which they don't have--so he can listen through the Presonus, as well as the install disk and documentation for same. He thinks he'll have it ready by close of business tomorrow at the latest.

IF NOT, the manager said that they would accept everything in return, even though it is well past their normal 30-day return period. I said I couldn't ask for more than that and we parted happy. Either I get a working PC from them or I get to order one from someplace recommended here and I'm only out the bench charges. (I was prepared to accept 75% of retail on the return.)

I am officially gruntled.

I've followed this closely, on the wife's Ipad. And there's lots of brain power to help you track stuff down.

Back in the lost ages, I had 3 separate contracts to figure out why certain systems did not run. I'm talking large scale Unix installs that ran up to 200k.

Hardware, Software, environment. What a tangled mess. Why did the data base at Kimberly Clark's paper mill take all night to sort a dozen entries. No one knew. Finger pointing.
Why did a large marketer have their computer crash every Monday. A year went by. Turned out it was the generator test day, and the thing was putting out very bad voltage then. Took me 3 days to figure it out.

My son built a computer for gaming. He's 23. Thing was a disaster from Day 1. Neon/flashing lights. It looked like something from Star Trek.

A possible solution would be to find an HP or some other brand name computer, selected by it's score on the tests Peter uses here. Built for a 'Media Computer'.

I quit buying huge hard drives. I have a Z drive now, Mybook thing by the modem/wireless modem. One linux system running cron to copy the photos and documents and music stuff to the Z drive at 2 a.m.

Telling you the truth it's better it was you than I. In my state I'd have had the BIG one by now!

Rys,
I do have one request of you, and that's when all is said and done, and if they can fix it without replacing it, please let us know what was wrong with it.

I'm going to ask you one other thing. There is a BIOS update for this which resolves a USB 3.0 issue, but since the AudioBox is USB 1.1 is shouldn't matter.
BUT, on the rear of the unit, there are two sets of USB ports. Two of them sit next to the two more, which are sitting next to the Ethernet port. The two that are alone are USB 3.0/2.0. (These should be the blue ones) The other two are USB 2.0/1.1.(These should be the red ones) These are the one that are sitting with the Ethernet port. The AudioBox is a USB 1.1 device. Which USB port are you using??? In this case, it may very VERY important. You want to use the red ones!

I want to go back and expand on this a bit. There are three headers on the mainboard for external USB 2.0/1.1 connectors, like you'd have on your case. If the case is connected to them, I would try the Prosonus in one of those USB connectors. The USB 3.0 standard is supposed to run at up to 5Gb/s versus 480Mb/s for USB 2.0, and electrical noise is a real possibility in audio. Plus, instead of the standard four pins for the lower rates, you have 8 or 9 for USB 3.0. There is a chance that the cable is picking up spurious signals from those other pins, which would cause all sorts of noise.

Sorry I didn't notice this earlier.

Gary

My concern is that they'll get it sorta working.Key word sorta.Fix one thing by srewing up another and 6 months down the road you're SOL.

Apparently usb3 is not always downward compatible with things like soundcards. Focusrite had to upgrade their drivers for the 212i to clear this issue.

Gary,

Point taken. I knew which USB ports were which on the case, but not on the mobo itself. I was offered the opportunity to upgrade the main board during the the repair, so I will now be running a Gigabyte ZX77 series. I'll post the exact model number when I pick up the machine in the morning. But I will make a point to know exactly what I am plugging into.

John,

I went back to the shop yesterday to deliver a set of headphones for testing and documentation for the Presonus AudioBox. The system was running and appeared to be working fine. (I didn't pick it up at the time because I needed the packaging for the old mobo, and because I needed to get home and sleep, which would have been impossible with a new system sitting in the music room.) The fun will start when I install the audio apps.

Watch this space.

Good luck!

Really hope that this all comes to an end for you Ryszard. Nothing worse than getting a new toy and finding that it doesn't work. I hate the hassle of taking things back and dealing with all of that.

So, Rys, did you get this home and get it running yet? Does it work?

Gary

My time has been limited due to an unusual living situation. So far it sounds great, but I have not been able to try to record yet. For some reason the Presonus ASIO driver does not work with Reason, which is necessary in order to record audio with Reason. Haven't tried MIDI, either. I'll have more time with it later this week.

After more than a week away from home I had planned to devote the day to getting the DAW up and running. Instead, I'll just have to start making music. After only minutes of preparation--IT WORKS.

Sound and video now play perfectly. I plugged in my M-Audio Keystation 49e MIDI controller keyboard; Reason's Autodetect picked it up immediately. All I had to do was create an instrument and I was playing MIDI.

For some reason the ASIO driver supplied with the Presonus AudioBox USB doesn't work. Reason 6 requires an ASIO driver to record audio. So I installed ASIO4ALL, selected it and held my breath. It works and appears to be stable. The acid test was plugging in an actual instrument, creating an Audio Track, and clicking Record. (I'd say "drum roll," but it was actually a bass. Ha, ha.)

My hat is off to technician David Newton and one of the assistant store managers at the Marietta, Georgia, Micro Center. David had the thing on his bench for seven days. During that time he substituted every major component in the system, including the case. We still have no idea what was wrong. Also during that time he communicated with me at least once a day by phone or e-mail. It was the best interaction I've ever had with a serviceperson.

At the end of day six, though, I went to the manager and explained that I could have bought the same system online for the same money, had it burned in for three days and shipped with a three-year warranty. Even though I was over the 30-day mark for returns he agreed to take everything back and issue a refund if it wasn't working to my satisfaction. I've been doing business with Micro Center for years; this just bolsters my already high opinion of them. Oh, and the only cost to me was their standard bench charge and the difference between the original and the new Gigabyte motherboard that David installed. I have no idea how many actual hours went into it.

Thanks again to everyone here for their input. Next step is to reinstall BIAB, Real Band, and other music-related apps and get to work. I am confident that my next questions will be purely practical matters of actual program use and music production.

Rys,
I'm glad things are working for you. I still wish I knew what the problem was, given that you had to change out everything to get it to work.

When I lived in the east coast, Micro Center was my 'go-to' computer store, even though it meant a bit of a drive to get there. They have always been a wonderful store to buy from, intelligent and educated employees, and well worth the time, effort and money spent there.

Gary

I'll assume you've tried getting the latest ASIO driver from PreSonus, and hit their message boards as well. I found with my PreSonus FireBox that there were plenty of common issues with the unit that were not discussed openly with driver update text, but users found them in common. PreSonus is a big boy company. They should have an ASIO driver that actually works for a current product.

-Scott