The "To release a CD yourself or not." got me thinking about everyone's expectations about "making it" in the crazy entertainment world, of which music is a part of...
For all the decades I made my living from music, my average pay after taxes, gas, food, lodging when necessary...all the things that are needed to live on the road, I made slightly above the minimum wage rate of that time period. Some folks thought it was not worth that little bit, but I had no outstanding bills, always had a roof over my head, food on the table, and a reliable vehicle.
Being single during most of that time made it easy, but even today my lifestyle is one of simplicity, I just don't need or want all the trappings the "American Dream" says we need...
So, for me, I had made it. I was doing what I love and living a decent life..
So, what is YOUR definition of "making it"?
Enjoying what you do has great value.
Kudos!
Making it in music - Regular royalty checks with lots of zeros. LOL!
Making it in life - what rharv said.
I couldn't NOW, but I have in the past. That band worked ourselves to death to do it, but we did fine. That was at a point in life when I liked a week in Saginaw here, 4 days in Indy there, every now and then a week in Florida when the weather up north sucked. The suitcase didn't bother me then. 20 years later I try to leave my house as little as possible....
And to be honest, when music was my job, I burned out on it. Now that I can play for my own enjoyment, I find it more enjoyable. That was also after a break of 16 years, so.....
But on topic, no, I couldn't. Not at the skill level I am at these days.
Could You Live From Making Music? Me? Not a chance.
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Everybody wants to pass as cats.
We all want to be big big stars, but we got different reasons for that"
I'm not sure one is supposed to make a 'living' making music. Has it ever really been this way except for the very top echelon? How many paid court musicians existed in the baroque and classical eras? How many more troubadours were there at the time? I would say jcspro's definition works. I would say that's how it works for most persons that make a living in any of the arts; musicians, playwrights, authors, artists of any type.
It's hard work. But if you enjoy it, that's part of the whole choppin' wood and carrying water thing, isn't it?
I might not be able to live from "making music", but you can bet your backsides I can live "to" make music!
Later,
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And to be honest, when music was my job, I burned out on it.
Me too Eddie. When I was in my 20s I was doing a day job and then playing five nights a week with the band, plus some session work during the day on weekends. It helped me buy my first house, but the music just became a job like any other.
Over the years I've been lucky to earn a lot of my income from music, but I always recommend people to have a "Plan B".
ROG.
Plan B? Isn't that that band from Manchester? *ducks*
I think it is the way it has always been in "arts" -- 1% make all the money and 99% scrounge for what they can. Just too much supply in the old supply and demand equation.
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We all want to be big stars,
but we don't know why
and we don't know how
Make a living from music...never gonna happen for me. There's nothing that anyone would pay to hear when its just me, alone, at night sitting at a dimly lit keyboard. But, must admit, that music is what I'm living for....
Like Eddie and Rog I got burned out. In the mid 60’s to the early 70’s I was making more money playing music than I was working. When I finally got an offer to tour I had a wife, kid, mortgage and a good job so I turned it down.
After 40 years of wedding bands I called it quits. But thanks to an Atari computer with those funny looking 5 pin plugs in the back, a Korg DS-8, Dr. T’s sequencer and a little program called BiaB I kept music as a hobby. Now with DAWs and especially with BiaB I am playing what I want when I want. All I have to do is to please myself.
So no, today I could not make a living playing music. But music has and still does supplement my income very nicely.
For me plan B worked out the best!
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Make a living from music...never gonna happen for me. There's nothing that anyone would pay to hear when its just me, alone, at night sitting at a dimly lit keyboard. But, must admit, that music is what I'm living for....
Boy, that lesson waa driven home real hard to me when I was still but a teenager and my father took me to a show in Pittsburgh that featured Ray Charles all by himself with just a Grand Piano and an old Wurlitzer Electric Piano, the original with the tube amp in it.
The audience was enraptured the entire time. Not only was it a rather intimate performance, it was one of the strongest performances I have ever seen in my life.
There is another thread here recently about Tommy Emmanuel. Same thing IMO.
The one common denominator I've noticed about these kind of performers, who can entertain audiences all night long all by themselves and never lose that keen audience interest, is that they always, always, KEEP PERFECT TIME while they are performing. Watch their feet, as that is their internal clock. Then govern your practice time accordingly.
Over the years I've learned that you don't have to attempt to play *everything* when accompanying your own singing or otherwise playing your instrument by yourself like that, but you absolutely MUST be able to keep good time.
One of my old private teachers used to say, "You can play a wrong note at the right time and most won't notice, but you cannot play a right note at the wrong time!"
Of course, there is more to it than that, intonation, etc. are also extremely important things, but that "good timing" directive is likely the single most important aspect of performance that I often find to be missing when viewing live acts today. And far too many will prefer to argue about that and make what I think are excuses rather than take the advice seriously and then do what it takes to correct same.
Tommy Emmanuel was a DRUMMER at one point in his life -- and he keeps impeccable time when he plays those pieces that knock everybody out.
Just something to think about,
--Mac
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But thanks to an Atari computer with those funny looking 5 pin plugs in the back, a Korg DS-8, Dr. T’s sequencer and a little program called BiaB I kept music as a hobby.
Mario. And didn't we have some fun with those Atari and Amiga computers and good old Dr.T.
Looking back it was so basic, but at the time it was all new and exciting and the possibilities seemed endless. Now that we've got so much technology, I find it hard to raise the same level of enthusiasm for each new advance as I did back then.
Oh no! it's the "Glory Days" again. (But I do love that song.)
ROG.
I have been making a living doing music and nothing but music for most of my life, and I'm now at retirement age, but have no plans to retire.
http://www.s-cats.com is my current duo. We do yacht clubs, country clubs, condominiums, private parties and other adult venues that want "baby-boomer" music. I have nothing against top40 but the young don't want to see a greying, balding, adult play their music.
I've never been burned out by it. I love playing music, I love the audience, I love my job -- being a musician is not what I do, it's what I
am. I will continue to play music for as long as I am able, and hopefully that will be a long as I can fog a mirror.
I've played everything from bars where they passed the hat to huge concerts where I was in the warm-up band for the headliner and absolutely everything in between.
I was in a road band that almost "made it big" until the negotiations between Motown and our lawyers broke down. Right now I'm "making it small" in my duo with my wife. When I met her we were playing in two different bands, and when mine broke up, we decided to join forces.
There is an old saying that if you make a living doing something that you would do for free, you will never work a day in your life. Other than a couple of "day jobs" I've had while testing what the "real world" was like, I've never worked a day in my life.
Sure, others make a lot more money. But I pay the mortgage on a modest home in a good neighborhood, buy new cars (but drive them until they are dead), and have enough left over to take a vacation almost every year. I do without a lot of the luxury toys that others have, but I really don't mind that at all.
I also moonlight selling my style "disks" and fake "disks" for BiaB. It's not enough to make a living at, and perhaps if it were my full-time job instead of a part-time second job, I could. But life without live performance would not be as fulfilling for me. So the BiaB disks are mostly made during the summer slow gigging season here in Florida. But the fact that I play music for my living, and I play sax, vocals, flute, wind synth, guitar, bass, keyboard synth, drums, and computer is a contributing factor as to why my aftermarket styles are so well received.
So the Band-in-a-Box aftermarket products will remain a sideline, not my main occupation. But this also helps me make my own backing tracks for my duo. This is a downsized world, and I'm afraid the opportunities for making a living in 5 to 7 piece band are extremely diminished, and don't appear to be improving. So making my own backing tracks allows me the flexibility of doing the arrangements, tempos, keys, and everything else the way I like them, not how someone else thinks they should be, and not "like the recording" as playing live is not like playing on the record. Two closely related but different skills.
And I blame TV for the decline of live music and the downsized musicians' world. At one time a person had to go out to hear and see quality music. The audio bandwidth on the Video signal was narrow and low-fidelity, there were only 3 or 4 TV channels, and the picture was bad. It was also free. Now we have 7.1 surround sound, huge hi-def screens and a cable subscription that can easily run a couple of hundred dollars per month (there goes the entertainment budget).
I was lucky to have grown up when every town had a few bands playing live, when every motel/hotel from a Holiday Inn on up had a live band, and when people came out of their housed to be entertained.
I'm not so sure that it is as easy to make a living now as it was then. I see HDTV, higher alcohol prices/taxes, increased DUI penalties, and numerous other factors competing with live music making the market smaller.
I suppose musicians can still make a living doing what we love, but I think a smaller percentage of the population will be able to do so.
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But thanks to an Atari computer with those funny looking 5 pin plugs in the back, a Korg DS-8, Dr. T’s sequencer and a little program called BiaB I kept music as a hobby.
Mario. And didn't we have some fun with those Atari and Amiga computers and good old Dr.T.
Looking back it was so basic, but at the time it was all new and exciting and the possibilities seemed endless. Now that we've got so much technology, I find it hard to raise the same level of enthusiasm for each new advance as I did back then.
Oh no! it's the "Glory Days" again. (But I do love that song.)
ROG.
Mario and ROG,
Yes I had a lot of fun with my Atari computer. And MIDI music still blows me away. I haven't lost one bit of enthusiasm for it.
But for many, I think the increased sophistication of the hardware/software tools we have now have reduced our involvement and therefore enthusiasm with the music.
A big example is the trend to go to audio loops. MIDI allows you to make music, audio allows you to re-arrange other people's music. So your playing it is out of the picture.
With MIDI you can play a sax, trumpet, piano or whatever, even if you didn't know how to play that instrument, and every note you played was your own. As you grew with your MIDI skills, learned how each instrument you were emulating expressed itself and then using the 127 MIDI Continuous Controllers to coax the same nuances out of your MIDI performance, you could get something that approached 100% of the instrument you were emulating (depending on your skills).
But of course, that required time and practice (like any musical instrument). Audio is instant gratification, and that is a very seductive thing. But the price is less involvement with the music, and therefore less enthusiasm and less personal satisfaction with the end product.
Arranging and re-arranging the music performed by other people is an art in itself, but it isn't the same as playing the music yourself.
Notes ♫
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Right now I'm "making it small" in my duo with my wife. When I met her we were playing in two different bands, and when mine broke up, we decided to join forces.
Notes you have no idea how envious of you I am. Back in the day I wanted that in the worst way but how do you go looking for a great girl singer and somehow think you may actually marry her? Good luck with that one. To me something like that boils down to the old being in the right place at the right time and you managed to make it work out. Think of it, the timing had to be perfect, both of you had to be available with no ongoing commitments and both of you had to be talented and on the same page both personally and professionally. How does somebody go out looking for that and be successful? Where would someone start? Working with your wife is the key. Double the money means you both have a chance at a good career and the fact that you two have managed to work it out all these years is a testament to both of you. I'm sure there have been problems but you're both still together and that is just great.
Bob
Two things come into play here. First of all, define "living". You can "live" in your van on nothing, no utilities in your name, pay as you go cell phone, online access at the library only, sponging off a girlfriend or living with your parents forever, looking for people who will invite you to dinner once a week so you can have something other than cold food you make in your van.... or you can "live" in a home you own, drive a nice car, keep your gas and electric turned on.... just be responsible in general.
Second, does your area have enough places to play to keep you busy 22 dates per month?
Of course you CAN do it if you hustle and work hard. Sadly I know too many who play for $75 3 times a month and the rest of the month they drink or snort it all away. I also know many who are quite successful, though in a few cases I wonder how they'd do it without the spouse in the picture. I know of one single mom who COULD do it but she chooses to keep her daytime career in tandem with her music, but she works a lot and could make it happen if she only played music. She'd join one more band to do it, but she'd be fine.
(Edit to add: I know all these things to be true because I have done most of them....!!)
For the record I haven't worked an 8 hour day since the early 70's.
Even then it wasn't a full 8 hours, hence my untimely dismissal.
Then again I don't really regret missing out on a career in the custodial arts.
18 years with the band, and the past 24 as a solo.
Also just got another check from CD baby.
Still waiting for my male escort gig to show a profit....
WSS
On a more serious note I guess it all depends on what you call a living.
Later,
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... but how do you go looking for a great girl singer and somehow think you may actually marry her?
Just dumb luck. After my divorce I played in a couple of different bands. The first one had severe personalty problems, so I moved on. The next one had a long term gig up here in Fort Pierce (I was from the Fort Lauderdale area). Leilani was in a going nowhere band and we started seeing each other. One day I showed up for work and another band was setting up. We had gotten fired (the lead singer thought he was too big of a star) and the band broke up. So Leilani and I started looking for other musicians while I took a temporary 'day job' until the new band started working. That was 34 years ago.
We were in this 5 piece band together, and lost the bass player (read: out of work while we break in a new musician). Then we lost the drummer (read: out of work again). After breaking the new drummer in, we went to our first gig and she then told us her religion wouldn't let her play in a bar. The next day I bought my first keyboard with a sequencer in it, then the Atari, then the Mac, and then the PC. We never looked back.
Leilani is a fantastic singer (I'm an OK singer), and she is a decent synth and rhythm guitar player. Plus she is intelligent, has good stage presence, great work ethics, and like myself, thinks that playing music should be fun. I play a very good sax, flute, and wind synthesizer and am adequate at lead guitar and keyboards (I also do bass and drums, that helps with the backing tracks that I create.
She is my best friend, my lover, my band-mate, and is fun to make music with. 24/7 together isn't enough.
Like I said, I got lucky.
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... Working with your wife is the key. Double the money means you both have a chance at a good career and the fact that you two have managed to work it out all these years is a testament to both of you. I'm sure there have been problems but you're both still together and that is just great.
Bob
The only problem is that when work is slack, we are both out of work. But fortunately that doesn't happen too often and like everybody else in the seasonal business in Florida, we adapt to that.
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Two things come into play here. First of all, define "living". You can "live" in your van on nothing, no utilities in your name, pay as you go cell phone, online access at the library only, sponging off a girlfriend or living with your parents forever, looking for people who will invite you to dinner once a week so you can have something other than cold food you make in your van.... or you can "live" in a home you own, drive a nice car, keep your gas and electric turned on.... just be responsible in general.
Second, does your area have enough places to play to keep you busy 22 dates per month?
We live in a house 300' from the actual coastline of Florida (there is a lagoon and a barrier island to the east of that). It's small but there are only two of us, and we don't have a lot of luxury items. But we do have everything we need. The bills get paid. I could make a lot more money if I had followed the Electronics Engineering career I was trained for, but I had an Engineering job for a couple of years (while playing on the weekend) and I guarantee it wasn't worth the money for me. So we live modestly but not in poverty nor in luxury. Other than the mortgage, I'm not in debt.
When doing one-nighters in Florida, we don't need 22 dates per month. Two one-nighters a week pays about what 6 nights in a Holiday Inn pays (but the Holiday Inn no longer has a band). And since we are both doing it, the money goes to the same family.
What do we call a living? To me it's a small home on a half acre lot with the Indian River and huge mansions on one side of me and a nature preserve on the other. ... It's enjoying what I do, waking up with a smile and going to bed with one. ... One doesn't need a Porsche, a Dodge will do nicely. ... One doesn't need an iPhone, an Android will do just fine. ... One doesn't need jewelry, saxophones, synthesizers, and guitars are more fun. ... One doesn't need a membership in a yacht club, I had a sailboat once, music is a lot more fun. ... One doesn't need a huge HDTV, I pulled the plug in the 1980s because TV was boring - bigger screen doesn't mean better content - instead I learned guitar, wind synth, HTML for both my websites, and how to run a mail-order business that turned into an on-line business - much better than watching TV to me.
So what am I missing? I can't think of a thing that's worth giving up my bliss and taking a 9 to 5 for. I'm happy, I spend the day happy, and on gig days instead of saying "I have to go to work today" I say, "I get to go to work today.
What could be better?
Notes
Very well said Notes!
later,
I have a friend (my former guitar instructor) who makes his living playing music.
He plays 500 gigs a year!?!?!
How does he do it? Well, he plays 2 nursing home gigs 5 days a week; he plays in a jazz duo about twice a month; he plays in a rock/cover band trio about 3- 4 times a month; gives lessons on Thursday night for 4 hours; and he does solo gigs at night about twice a week.
He makes between $80,000 - $100,000 a year. Certainly not riches but a comfortable living (he wife works also as a teacher which adds another $75k and benefits (a school teacher)).
But 500 gigs a year is a heckuva lot of work. I have “hung out” with him for a couple days and it’s a lot of driving, load in, load out (2-3 times a day), a day may start at 10am and finish up at 1am. But he loves it and he is an excellent musician who loves playing to the crowd in the same way that Notes Norton describes his stage demeanor.
I love playing music and occasionally, I fantasize about playing music for my living but working as hard as I see musicians work to live…without seeing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (you know, U2 kind of living), it doesn’t seem worth it to me (I’m 55 so dreams like that have long ago evaporated…but don’t worry, I still have other dreams).
Sometimes dreams of making a living at what you love to do causes “what you love do” to become “just a job.” I hear that in some of our forum members saying that they “became burned out on music.”
From my 16th birthday until I was 45, skydiving was my passion…I accumulated 5,000 jumps, was National champion in 1982, 1999 and 2002. So I certainly was qualified to make my living as a professional skydiver (instructor, demo jumps, competition events, etc.) and make a comfortable living ($80-100k, like my guitar playing friend). But I chose NOT to because I did NOT want my entire life to be engulfed with what gave me incredible joy…it would have become a JOB and rob the pleasure it gave me (in other words: burned out).
But if I was 20 again (!), maybe chasing after the musical dream would be fun!!! Kinda reminds me of a song…
Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance, forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose, we’d fight and never lose
For we were young…
And sure to have our way!
(Just saying my couple of pennies)
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There is another thread here recently about Tommy Emmanuel. Same thing IMO.
The one common denominator I've noticed about these kind of performers, who can entertain audiences all night long all by themselves and never lose that keen audience interest, is that they always, always, KEEP PERFECT TIME while they are performing. Watch their feet, as that is their internal clock. Then govern your practice time accordingly.
Over the years I've learned that you don't have to attempt to play *everything* when accompanying your own singing or otherwise playing your instrument by yourself like that, but you absolutely MUST be able to keep good time.
--Mac
I have spent gobs of time on youtube watching TE...I have seen him 6 times (he passes thru Chicago a couple times a year) and as amazing as he is playing bass lines, rhythm, harmony and melody all at the same time , his sense of time is what knocks me out completely. He can be playing up a storm and throws in a 2-3 second series of single note licks and jump back to what he was playing and he NEVER LOSES THE GROOVE!
And that, my friends, is what it is all about...THE GROOVE. It is a skill set that very few musicians master.
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Still waiting for my male escort gig to show a profit....
WSS
I wouldn't wait a whole lot longer......
You worked a lot of 8 hour days. The hours just weren't all on stage. Driving from city to city, loading in, setting up, loading out, driving to the next town, rehearsing, writing, recording, re-recording... that's all "working". You likely put 6 hours into some music endeavor today.
The on stage part is only part of it.
WOW! 500 gigs a year!
I play between 75 - 100 any given year and while I love every minute of it I am seriously thinking of cutting back my load. Your friend makes me feel like a whimp!
Later,
500 a year... compared to my........ one.
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On a more serious note I guess it all depends on what you call a living.
Later,
That was serious.
What do you call " a living?"
WSS
I've known other musicians that got burned out on music. I knew a professional fisherman who got burned out on fishing. It's true that for some turning a hobby into a profession can cut down on the fun factor.
I guess I'm lucky that way. I don't care if I'm playing a tired old war horse like Yakety Sax or if I'm improvising a solo on a song we just learned, I'm having a great time doing it. Playing music in front of an appreciative audience is truly my bliss.
Not that it's all a bed of roses. I don't particularly care for the business end of being a musician. Doing cold calls for more work is absolutely the worst - and there are no agents around here that can keep you busy enough. Fortunately, I haven't done that in years, as most of our business is repeat business or referrals.
There is no vacation pay and no sick leave. In fact, you are not allowed to get sick and if you do, you have to perform and pretend you aren't sick. Fortunately, I don't get sick often, a mild cold every 5 to 10 years is about it. But perhaps because I know I can't call in, and because I don't subconsciously want a day off work, my immune system might work harder than most others (Leilani doesn't get sick often either.
There is no job security, but with all the corporate downsizing and out-sourcing, there is no job security in the corporate world, either.
I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions.
Since I do one-nighters, We have to move equipment each time I gig. So an additional 2-3 hours can be tacked on to each gig for some manual labor. On the other hand, some people pay hundreds of dollars per year to go to the gym for weight bearing exercises, I get paid for them. My speakers weigh 32 pounds each, and my rolling rack just a little bit more, so I'm not killing myself either.
So making a living as a self employed musician is not for every one.
On the other hand, I'm living life on my own terms, not following orders from anybody else, never having to do "busy work", making good or bad decisions and either benefiting or learning from them, I never feel like I have a "job", I get to meet a lot of interesting people and each job is different. We have some clients that book us once per year and it's like meeting old friends each year. We have another gig we do weekly 10 months a year and we will be returning for our 5th season this October - the regular customers are like extended family to us. We were on cruise ships for 3 years and got to experience the Caribbean islands and crew/staff members from 30 different countries, some of which we still keep in touch with, 20 years later.
"I've never known a musician who regretted being one." ~ Virgil Thompson
Virgil, you can count me in on that. I'm very glad I am a musician.
Although many religions promise us a happy hunting ground of sorts after we die, there is no guarantee. So as far as I know, this life is the proverbial bird in the hand. So I intend to live as long as I can, have as much fun as I can, have as little stress as I can, while being a good enough person so that if there are those pearly gates, I'll be invited in -- if not, I've made the most of this all too short life.
Notes
See, Notes, YOU have done it right, and are continuing to do it right. You actually WORK at your craft. How many of the other type do we all know? The kind who sit at home and never work at their music and complain that they have no work? This isn't like the Nigerian lottery where you are the lucky one selected to receive Prince Mogugu's millions! The venues can't call if they don't know who you are.
The Motown band I was in for a few years did a LOT of marketing. We mailed out packets with audio CDs, live DVDs, bios on every member, photos, a bulk song list AND several example set lists that were tailered to specific types of events.... that went out to every local venue we could find, and then we'd drive to the bigger cities within a 5 hour radius (yes Harv, even that state up north!) where we'd buy newspapers and steal phone books and visit the newspaper to talk to the entertainment writers to see what was what in their city. I would say 99% of them were gracious and offered as much help and information as possible.
Now shift to the guy who spends 6 hours every day sitting on his Marshall amp playing as fast as he can on his Les Paul waiting for someone to discover him. Of course that is an exaggeration, but we know people like that, don't we?
Westside Steve, who has chimed in on this thread, has been very successful here in our area for many years, but he has the talent and the showmanship to do so. That is still the key. You need to give them something they enjoy attending but you really need to give them something good to listen to. He is in that first group of people who do it right. A former bandmate of mine is in the other group who sits and waits for people to call him with gigs that pay $100,000 a night for 3 sets of cover music.
I am going to do a solo act and charge $1 million. I doubt if I'll get many jobs, but if I ever get ONE......
And one quick comment on what "live" means... I want to LIVE, not exist or survive. I want creature comforts like most of us do. However, I also know excesses when I see it. I have a nice TV and sound system, a car that gets me to my job every day, a comfortable house with a decent sized yard and woods behind me.... I don't need 11 cars and 4 houses. I was taught to know that you can't hitch a U-Haul to the hearse, and I have nobody to leave anything to so I don't care to amass riches or anything. The local animal shelter gets the proceeds of my estate sale anyway... They gave me the three best friends I ever had. I pay them back when I die.
Hey! Jusa' minute...I'm waiting for Prince Mogugu's millions to be transferred into my checking account! He said to just give him 350 Quid for legal fees and my bank account number along with my PIN and he would take care of everything else.
Hey Don! Just hold on there a minute.....YOU are too late.....being a Scot, I managed to beat him down to £300!
But I felt guilty, so I've told him to accept YOUR details. Maybe you will send me a few quid when everything is settled?
Regards, Joe G.
Well, while you guys were fighting over that one, King Bfusa just called me and sent me HIS millions!!
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Still waiting for my male escort gig to show a profit....
WSS
I wouldn't wait a whole lot longer......
You worked a lot of 8 hour days. The hours just weren't all on stage. Driving from city to city, loading in, setting up, loading out, driving to the next town, rehearsing, writing, recording, re-recording... that's all "working". You likely put 6 hours into some music endeavor today.
The on stage part is only part of it.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
Somehow it seems like it's not work if I'd do it for free....
Don't want these club owners to find out though...
WSS
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I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions.
Umm, no. I'm an Enrolled Agent, a tax pro. Most wealthy people including 99% of all polititians you could name have a lot of money in investments. Investments are made with after tax funds. That is they earned it, paid tax on it then bought the investment. This is why investment income is taxed at a much lower rate than earned income because the funds have already been taxed. Few people understand that.
Investments are not guaranteed, people can and do lose money all the time. Some rich guy could lose a million bucks and how much can he write off that year? $3,000. $3,000?!? Yep that's it. Now, he can use that loss to offset future investment earnings but what if there isn't any? Then he takes 3 grand a year forever or until he dies, whichever comes first. If the government didn't give a tax break for those investments noboby would take the risk and invest in anything, they would just keep their after tax money in the bank at less than 1%.
Not getting into any kind of political discussion at all here, just making a very basic and incomplete (very incomplete) tax comment.
Bob
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On a more serious note I guess it all depends on what you call a living.
Later,
That was serious.
What do you call " a living?"
WSS
Steve,
I did say it was serious but my answer is really pretty simple. . . although not necessarily in this order I would say paying my bills on time, being able to afford the necessities required for my family to live a healthy happy life and of course being thought off as a decent human by my fellow man.
Later,
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Two things come into play here. First of all, define "living".
Already did at the start....
And eddie1261, you must be the life of the party when you go out! 
I supported a family of five, while on the road for almost 15 years.
Soon, I hope to sell my business & do it again. (without the kids!)
I love playing music. That's why I became a musician!
Mick
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I supported a family of five, while on the road for almost 15 years.
It's the 'while on the road' part that never interested me. I'm not happy away from home (unless the family comes with). Passed on more than one traveling job offer. Just not for me. Couple nights a year away from the wife and kids is enough for me.
YMMV
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And eddie1261, you must be the life of the party when you go out!
Out? What is this "out" of which you speak?
I never go anywhere. There are times I wish I'd get sick so I'd have to go to the hospital.... and that paramedics would have to come and transport me just so I'd have visitors. If I didn't have a dog, I would never speak outside of my job. Nobody calls me, nobody ever comes over, when people DO need to contact me they email or text....
But a lot of this is by choice. I was in a VERY busy band. We would play 5 nights a week, and in the good weather months, we would usually play 7 shows in 4 days from Thursday to Sunday. Often the afternoon show and the evening show were 3 hours apart. We had 2 PA systems for those weekends, and a guy with one of those big vans that seated 9 who would drive us so we could nap between shows. After all of that, I got tired of people in general, and especially people in bars that don't know how to behave after their 3rd beer. In my day I was a party ANIMAL, but never to a point where I invaded other people's good time, and I saw too much of that to be comfortable in a bar ever again.
So, no, I not only COULDN'T make a living playing music anymore, I wouldn't try. Of course, my skills have eroded to a point where I am not but maybe half the player I used to be, but I found out a couple of years ago when I was putting together a tribute band that with work they could come back. That band never got off the ground but after a lot of weeks of rehearsals it was sounding really good with me behind a mountain of keyboards. What I absolutely CAN'T do is work a 40 hour job and have the energy to practice every day to get those skills back. I find myself asleep sitting up on the couch by 7pm.
Plus there is the component of having to conform and play that set list of cliches and I refuse to do it. There is that "list" of 20 or so songs that I will NEVER play again. That will disqualify me from 98.6% of rooms everywhere. I've never been one to worry about coloring inside the lines and I don't see how I could start now at my age. That other 1.4% is not going to provide enough earning potential to survive.
It was fun, I enjoyed it, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. I got to travel to a lot of places in the US and Canada, play music, and get paid for it. But my life is now computers and the network that they sit on, with a stable income AND a more responsible perspective on how to manage it.
People CAN make a decent living playing music. Just not me.
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See, Notes, YOU have done it right, and are continuing to do it right. You actually WORK at your craft. <...>
It's a business, I'm the business owner, and if I treat it like a business, it should take care of me. That means putting out a quality product, and trying to do better than my friends who are also my competitors. May the best act get the gig.
If you want to succeed, you have to play the songs they want to hear (no big "I'm an artist and won't play that" ego), ... you have to watch and pace the audience playing the appropriate song at the right time (no set lists unless you are clairvoyant), ... when they are on the dance floor you have to go from song to song immediately, ... when they are eating dinner you have to play low enough so they can talk to each other across the table, ... when it's time to talk on the mic you have to have good mic skills, ... when it's not time to talk on the mic you have to keep your mouth shut, ... You have to realize that the audience came to see you, and to honor that kindness, you have to do your best to make sure they have a good enough time to want to come see you again. It's a dialog between the musicians and the audience and if you do it right you will both satisfy each others needs.
Two rules make it easy:- If you are playing a commercial venue, conduct yourself as if you were going to make the money that goes into the cash register and do your best to maximize that. That means making sure they have a good time and stay longer
- If you are playing a private party, conduct yourself as if you are the host of the party and you want your guests to leave with a smile on their face and a "thank you for a great party" on their lips.
Do those two things and the rest of the decisions come easy.
I don't mind being on the road, but I prefer not to and to do my traveling for fun instead of gigging. Fortunately the Band-in-a-Box sales make just enough so that I don't have to travel in August and September, the traditional dead months here in Southeastern Florida.
I've played in almost all the lower 48 states, in Canada, on Cruise Ships in the Caribbean and all the way to the People's Republic of China. I enjoyed it all.
It may be my bliss, but it's also my business. And a bad day at playing music is better than a good day at any other job I can think of. Take care of your business if you want it to take care of you.
Notes
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There is that "list" of 20 or so songs that I will NEVER play again. That will disqualify me from 98.6% of rooms everywhere.
Eddie. It seems like I'm gonna have to agree with you again.
One of the big problems with working full-time in music is that you don't get to play the stuff you like. It's great if you like something mainstream, like country, where there's a big following, but as often as not you find yourself playing YMCA (I happen to know that's one of Eddie's favorites) or Sugar Sugar in some cheezy pop band.
If you're lucky enough to land a job in a studio, you still have to work with the full spectrum of music. In the late 80s I produced two Thrash-Metal albums, basically because no one else would take the job. You just have to take pride in producing the best product possible within the genre and think about the pay-check.
When I was younger and needed the money more than I do now, this was acceptable, but times change, the kids leave home and it's time to re-evaluate. It's back to enjoying the music for less money.
ROG.
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Sugar Sugar in some cheezy pop band.
I thought the Archies were a Bubblegum Pop band. If they were a "cheezy pop band" they would have been singing "Cheddar, Cheddar".
There is no song I will not play, if I am able to play it and if I think it will go over well.
Sure, there are songs I'd rather not call because my head tells me I don't want to play them (for whatever reason), but once I start playing them, it's just music and I find myself having a good time playing them in spite of myself.
Day gig at the telephone company:
I got out of full time music two times in my life, always playing music on the weekend. I did this because I thought I was supposed to have a real job, parental and societal pressure convinced me to give it a try.
The first one was with the telephone company. This was long before cell phones.
Climbing telephone poles are dangerous. There are only two kinds of pole climbers, those who have fallen off the pole, and those who haven't fallen off the pole YET!!! And when you fall, it isn't necessarily your fault. If the pole has shell rot, or if too many people have climbed it before, it is quite possible to fall with chunks of wood still attached to your spikes. This happened to me once, fortunately there was nothing but lawn to land on.
So I was in this back yard. There were 4 chain link fences meeting at the telephone pole. There were metal garbage cans there too. If I would have fallen off this pole, landing or straddling one of those obstacles would not be very much fun (don't even want to think about it).
I open the telephone terminal, and about 100 paper wasps had decided to build their home in the terminal, and they were not very happy about having the cover opened. Now here I am, two spikes buried about 1/16" in the pole, angry wasps, and any fast or careless move means I'll likely fall off the pole and land on one of the fences and garbage cans.
As much as I hate wasp stings, that was the preferred option. So I carefully climb back down the pole. Fortunately the wasps didn't recognize me as the home-wrecker and I didn't get stung, but you can bet my pulse and respiration were going off the charts.
So now if someone wants to hear "The Theme From New York, New York", or "Sugar Sugar", or "Elvira", or the "Electric Boogie", or even "The Chicken Dance", and if my mind resists, all I have to do is think about the wasps, and it's no problem. And the funny thing is, once the music starts, I put on that musical 'hat' and have a good time playing it.
And it's give and take. I may play "Yakety Sax" or "New York" on the gig, but I will also play a number of songs that I really want to play and can't wait to call. And those requests really don't come up that often.
Some of us think of ourselves as artists and playing something like that is beneath us. And that's OK for you. But remember, Beethoven, Mozart, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, and other composers of the most artistic and complicated music the world has ever known all have composed things on consignment that the didn't want to do but had to satisfy a customer with.
And Michelangelo didn't want to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
A highly trained chef might not want to prepare fish and chips, but if he found himself in the right part of the country, it ought to be on the menu along with his artistic specialties.
I recall seeing an interview with Tony Bennett. The interviewer asked Tony if he ever got tired of singing "San Francisco." Tony replied with something like (I'll paraphrase), "How can I get tired of that song. It's the song that put me on the map, it's the song that my fans want to hear, and it's a great song." I gained a lot of respect for Tony after that.
There are things I do not play though. I don't do rap or heavy metal. I'm not fond of either genre and fortunately the adult audience I chose in my 'business model' does not want to hear it. But if enough of my customers ask for a title, you can bet I'd learn it if I thought we could do it justice.
Some of you think that playing particular songs is selling out. To me taking a day job so I can play only the songs I want to is a bigger sell out. But that is only my personal feeling on the subject, and not necessarily right for another.
And I don't have a day job, other than gig times (which I look forward to) my time is my own and I get to pick and choose what I want to do, whether it is typing on the Internet, learning a new song, working on a new Band-in-a-Box style, or goofing off. All in all I put in much more than 40 hours on the job in a week, but other then when I wear the "Band Salesman" hat, none of it feels like work at all. That's why they call it playing music!
Insights and incites by Notes
Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop.
WSS
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I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions.
Umm, no. I'm an Enrolled Agent, a tax pro. Most wealthy people including 99% of all polititians you could name have a lot of money in investments. Investments are made with after tax funds. That is they earned it, paid tax on it then bought the investment. This is why investment income is taxed at a much lower rate than earned income because the funds have already been taxed. Few people understand that.
Investments are not guaranteed, people can and do lose money all the time. Some rich guy could lose a million bucks and how much can he write off that year? $3,000. $3,000?!? Yep that's it. Now, he can use that loss to offset future investment earnings but what if there isn't any? Then he takes 3 grand a year forever or until he dies, whichever comes first. If the government didn't give a tax break for those investments noboby would take the risk and invest in anything, they would just keep their after tax money in the bank at less than 1%.
Not getting into any kind of political discussion at all here, just making a very basic and incomplete (very incomplete) tax comment.
Bob
Very nice lesson Bob, but this is how the laws are made, by the rich (even by proxy via campaign funds), to favor the rich.
A person who invests in a business is a part owner of that business and indeed has some risk involved.
Every self-employed business owner has some risk involved. I financed my two businesses on credit card debts, others take out mortgages on their homes, some have so much at risk that if their business venture fails, they would end up in a homeless shelter.
Yet we self-employed pay 15% self-employment tax -- and our income tax on top of that. The money my fried spent on his dental supply business was money he paid income tax on, and took a second mortgage on his home for. The money I spent to buy keyboards, computers, sound modules, MIDI controllers on my credit card was money I already paid tax on. In my other business, saxophones, guitars, PA set, synthesizers flute, microphones, etc., were also financed on credit cards. Until my "business loan to myself" was paid off, I was definitely at risk for much more of my life than the upper 5% are.
I have a relative who owned a furniture store. Enlarged it during the construction boom. The demand went down, he ended up declaring bankruptcy, the bank took his store, has home, the home his wife had before they were married, an apartment they owned, and left them living in a house they were holding in trust for their granddaughter until she turned 35. When granddaughter took possession of the house, he was dead, and his widow was left without even the home she owned when they got married. She is now a renter living on social security and his air force pension.
So don't give me the Faux News line that the rich investors have more to lose. People like Romney and others could loose many millions of dollars and it won't affect their life style one bit. The fact that they are paying a smaller percentage of tax than my self-employment tax, is just because the rich rigged the game in their favor.
And I chose Romney because it's current. He is definitely not the first, not the only one, and will not be the last. So don't count this as a political barb but instead a state of the union comment.
We live and a Fascist republic now, according to the definition stated by the inventor of Fascism himself, Benito Mussolini, and I quote the translation from the Italian, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
If the laws were fair, and if everybody paid their fair share instead of loading the highest percentage of tax burden on the middle classes, it would be much easier to make a living at being a musician.
Insights and incites by Notes
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Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop.
WSS
And climbing telephone poles, and selling furniture, jewelry, or clothing, and working in a factory, and managing an apartment building, and managing someone's hedge funds, and driving a UPS truck, and being a CPA, and doing just about everything else as an employee (or as the corporate heads call it, a "wage slave").
It's not just the wasps. "Sugar Sugar" isn't bad at all. It has the same 12 notes as all of the works written by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Charlie Parker, Lennon & McCartney, Carole King, Dave Brubeck, and the rest.
The difference between a weed and a flower is merely opinion.
Notes
>>> "Sugar Sugar" isn't bad at all. It has the same 12 notes as all of the works written by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Charlie Parker, Lennon & McCartney, Carole King, Dave Brubeck, and the rest.
"Sugar Sugar" has 12 notes?
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Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop.
WSS
Got your point Steve, but there is "art" in machining, just as much as in music. When you take a blank of steel and machine it to fine tolerances, you are left with quite a sense of accomplishment. Just like music, the skill doesn't come over night.
Don S.
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<...>
"Sugar Sugar" has 12 notes?
More than that - but a lot of them are the same ones played over and over again
Sure, I'd rather play "Prokofiev's 4th symphony", "Night In Tunisia", "Hotel California", "Sway", "Desifinado", "Beginnings" (Chicago), "Straight No Chaser", "Another Star", "Marche Slave", "Isle of the Dead", "Some Skunk Funk", "Locomotive Breath", "Danse Macabre", "You Can't Lose What You Never Had", "Layla", or a number of other songs, and there are plenty of songs on each gig that I really want to play, so if I need to play something corny, I just put on my corny 'hat' and have fun with it, if I need to play something worn out, I just try to play it as if it were still fresh and have fun with it.
It's give and take. Give them the songs they like and if placed properly, they will take the songs you like.
And if "Blue Rondo ala Turk" is over the heads of the audience, and "Sugar Sugar" isn't, it's more fun to play "Sugar Sugar". Each gig and each genre of music allows me to express a different side of me. I even enjoy "Yakety Say" once the music starts, although I would never call it and only do it on request. And that's the most worn out song I play.
After all Peter, as you say, "Have fun!"
If you can't have fun playing music, then you shouldn't try to make a living playing music.
Notes
At one time, my musical integrity could be bought quite cheaply. I actually played "Sugar Sugar" whilst smiling and appearing to enjoy it. To my everlasting shame, I wrote music for advertising and product launches. I even wrote twenty minutes of mindless backing track for a promotional film by a firm manufacturing conveyor systems. One January when other work was scarce, I wrote thirty radio jingles. Arghhh!
If you genuinely enjoy what you're doing that's great, otherwise you're just selling out. Now that I'm older and I live a simple life with a few simple friends(?), my integrity has gone up in price. It's still for sale, but it's more expensive!
They do say that everything has it's price.
ROG.
ROG, wisdom comes with experience (age)
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Sure, I'd rather play "Prokofiev's 4th symphony", "Night In Tunisia", "Hotel California", "Sway", "Desifinado", "Beginnings" (Chicago), "Straight No Chaser", "Another Star", "Marche Slave", "Isle of the Dead", "Some Skunk Funk", "Locomotive Breath", "Danse Macabre", "You Can't Lose What You Never Had", "Layla", or a number of other songs, and there are plenty of songs on each gig that I really want to play, so if I need to play something corny, I just put on my corny 'hat' and have fun with it, if I need to play something worn out, I just try to play it as if it were still fresh and have fun with it.
Very well said Notes. I've done that many times, you have to give some to get some back.
Mick, I mentioned that killer sax player Andy Suzuki. He told me that about 15 years ago he got the Muzak gig at their office in Hollywood. He's the arranger and sax player you hear on all that elevator music and he did it for over 10 years. He didn't even think about the concept of selling out or anything like that. He said he will be eternally grateful for that opportunity because he was on a regular corporate salary with benefits like anybody else in their offices, his work schedule was very flexible and it allowed him to develop his solo career.
Bob
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Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop.
WSS
Having done both, I'd comment that it depends on your goals.
If your goals include sending multiple kids to college, buying new cars occasionally, taking regular vacations, paying the mortgage off early on a house in a prestigious neighborhood, retiring with a pension and a 401k, and still having money leftover to buy all the music gear you want... the machine shop wins hands down.
(But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.)
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(But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.)
Pat, I am going to prove you wrong on this one . Today I am going to go into the day job and give one of my co-workers a standing ovation. As you well now its all about attitude and recognizing performace, any performance, which is above and beyond. It does happen even in the machine shops, just takes a keen eye to spot it.
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(But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.)
Pat, I am going to prove you wrong on this one . Today I am going to go into the day job and give one of my co-workers a standing ovation. As you well now its all about attitude and recognizing performace, any performance, which is above and beyond. It does happen even in the machine shops, just takes a keen eye to spot it.
I agree that people in a shop environment get rewarded and recognized for excellence... but I was talking about the standing ovation kind of applause... that's what I miss about performing in front of an audience... the immediate reinforcement of applause
Even when rewards are doled out in a corporate environment, there is such a time lag between the deed being recognized and the official commendation that something is lost.
Imagine trying to train a dog by giving him a treat 6 months after he jumped through the hoop.
Motivation and a sense of accomplishment are inextricably tied to instant reinforcement. IMO, that's a big part of the reason why playing music is so addicting, and why most day jobs are so demoralizing.
regarding the theme of the original thread:
perhaps a better question at most of our ages is whether playing music is a good way to supplement one's retirement income. I think it is.
As stated before, I think that as boomers retire and have time on their hands, they will return to the patterns of their youth and seek live music again (but in different venues... instead of bars it will be in resorts, restaurants, clubs, wineries, parks, retirement communities etc)
For the industrious soul who combines his musical experience with BIAB, then adds whatever business sense he has acquired in order to prospect for opportunities, the book of success is waiting to be written by us.
Our generation has been inclined to have a vision and make things happen. Retirement is the next logical step in that progression.
Peter & Notes,
Well since I originally read this thread I have played two gigs (about 80 tunes in total) but thanks to you guys I still can't get
Sugar Sugar out of my head!
Later,
"Billy don't be a hero......"
Get THAT one out of your head!!!
We haven't heard Bo Donaldson's name since. Much less The Heywoods.....
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Peter & Notes,
Well since I originally read this thread I have played two gigs (about 80 tunes in total) but thanks to you guys I still can't get Sugar Sugar out of my head!
Later,
Sorry 
Actually, it's a well crafted pop song. It's kitsch, but then so many other pop songs are. We learned the song for a regular customer at a yacht club that we play regularly. It wasn't my first choice, but I have fun with it anyway, and surprisingly it often fills the dance floor.
Notes
As I continue to digest the comments on this thread, it becomes more and more clear that we have people of varied areas of experience, and it is interesting to hear the perspective from the full time players vs the hobby players and dabblers. (I am a dabbler.)
As I sit here during my lunch break, at I job I enjoy very much (network support tech at a very large international company), I am listening to the CD of Sarah McLachlin's Mirrorball tour. This is one of my favorite songwriters, as well as one of my favorite performers, probably not hurt by the fact that she is a MAJOR babe, but it truly is her music that draws me to her. And I mentioned that because listening to the music from a tour I saw in person, it makes me think about all the club owners and musicians that spout the partyline statement "People don't want to hear originals."
Hmmm.... they don't?
People flock to see artists play originals. They are called concerts. 15-20,000 people at a time go to hear "originals". The difference is that Sarah McLachlin's originals are masterpieces and mine suck. People will be thrilled to hear GOOD originals. Every song ever written is an original to somebody.
I occasionally visit some of the local songwriter showcase nights and I hear a lot of crap. However, I usually hear maybe 2 decent songs a night. I have performed at a couple and hope I contributed to that group of 2.... The key difference here is that when you go to songwriter night, you are expecting original music. When you go to Bob's Bar and Grille you expect to hear "that song list". This is why you will never see me at Bob's Bar and Grille. If I am interested in hearing Free Bird (I am not) I will play it at home or in my car. I am in the group that would prefer a 90 minute set of mediocre original songs than 3 hours of flawlessly performed cover music. I make the conscious choice to be in that group, and as has become a popular phrase here, "mileage may vary".
So to those who want to play "that song list", you certainly can make a living doing it. The choice becomes do you WANT to play that song list, or do you have to. I make a decent living sitting here at this desk. That affords me the opportunity to say "If I ever DO decide to play again, it will be on my terms, not theirs." I would be interested in booking only 45-50 minute shows opening for people at venues one level above Bob's Bar and Grille that are designed to be concert venues, not restaurants that have music after the all you can eat fish special is done. There is a great need for good copy bands, and I have friends who play in them, but I don't go see them play. I do go to about 4-5 places that are more in the "concert" domain, and I watch skilled but financially stressed musicians play their original music, music that matters to them and thus comes from the heart. That stuff I have on Soundcloud isn't just "songs". They are stories about my life. Many Years Ago, Here Goes Nuttin', Do It All Again... those songs, to a casual listener, are just songs. To me, those are the story of when I quit drinking, that I know to not try getting married again, yet I might have done it a couple of years ago while I was involved with a girl who dumped me. And that dumping prompted Do It All Again, I'm The One, The One That Got Away... those songs matter to ME, and performing those songs is an experience much different from playing Mustang Sally and Gimme Three Steps. This is why I love Sarah's work so much. Can't you just HEAR the pain dripping out of those lyrics? This is why I wonder what happened to Diane Warren that she can turn out those painful love songs non stop the way she does. That is not innate. That comes from experience.
The part about "filling the dance floor" is meaningless to me. I prefer to play in a venue that doesn't even HAVE a dance floor. You are there to listen to me tell you stories. Save your dance moves for Soul Train.
But to make this as on topic as possible, sure you can make a living playing music. (Or selling drugs. Or turning tricks. Or selling handguns underground....) When music is your living your perspective is different and you do what you have to do. When music is your toy and you don't rely on it to pay your mortgage, your perspective is not likely the same as if you did. What I don't see is how I could go up and play cover music and try to sell CDs that are NOTHING like what I would be playing live. How many disappointed people would there be to think they are getting "Brown Eyed Girl" because they heard it live, pop the CD into their car on the way home from Bob's Bar and Grille and 12 country songs come out? Again just my opinion, but I believe you HAVE to play your originals to give them at least a taste of what is on your CD. (And I would NEVER record a cover song.) Once I have your 12 bucks (and I'll give it to you for 10 if you want me to sign it...
), it has long been sent to one bank or another to pay a bill... no refunds!
You do have some good points. But a lot of them apply to you and not everybody. That's OK because that's what we are discussing here. There is no right or wrong answer.
But people don't want to hear original music. Even when you go to a major name concert, they will play all their most popular old tunes and save a few of the new for later in the concert. The fans want to hear the songs they know by heart from the previous albums and radio play. And most importantly, the people go there to hear the star. Every new song is original music, but the audience wants to hear memories.
We play a couple of originals in the mix, and after the audience has heard them enough, some request them. But if we did all originals, they probably wouldn't have come to hear us in the first place.
And throughout the ages, where does it say the musician has to play songs he/she wrote themselves. Did Sinatra write his own songs? Elvis Presley? Luciano Pavarotti? Patsy Cline? and so on. And how many hit songs were written but not sung by the masters in Tin Pan Ally and/or the Brill Building? Since when does an artist have to sing his/her own songs to be valid? Did Irving Berlin ever sing on a hit record? Burt Bacharach? Cynthia Weil? (Well her husband Barry Mann did have one hit she co-wrote!)
And personally, I like playing music. No, I take that back, I LOVE playing music. And I play cover tunes, variations on cover tunes, complete re-arrangements of popular tunes and a couple of my own. I really enjoy my job and I really enjoy my audience.
If the people didn't know Sarah McLachlin, they wouldn't flock to hear her originals. But we live in an idol worship culture, and once the artist becomes a star, they become an idol, and even their worst is likely to sell.
I understand that you don't want to listen to "Free Bird" again. But you are a musician and don't listen like the rest of the world. When I go to a concert, it's a symphony orchestra. I don't even care to hear the stars do their music in person. I'd rather hear it on my iPod. But I'm not the general public either.
You said <<The choice becomes do you WANT to play that song list, or do you have to. >> and my answer is I WANT to.
My first professional gig was in Junior High School. I got into this little rock and roll band. We were terrible, but everybody was back then. We played cover songs that we loved to listen to on the radio. We practiced at each others houses and had a great time doing it.
Then we got a gig for a Jr. High School Dance (they would call it middle school today). There I was on the stage, having the time of my life doing those cover songs with my buddies, and the girl who wouldn't even look at me in English class was 'making eyes' at me. And at the end of the night they payed me money!!!!
I've been playing ever since. I backed up headliners in concert. I went through a jazz phase and played with some famous players. I've even had by bio published in Who's Who in Entertainment.
<<But to make this as on topic as possible, sure you can make a living playing music. (Or selling drugs. Or turning tricks. Or selling handguns underground....) When music is your living your perspective is different and you do what you have to do. When music is your toy and you don't rely on it to pay your mortgage, your perspective is not likely the same as if you did.>>
You could make a living doing tech support at a large international company as well. And if you enjoy it, if it's your bliss, then you are blessed.
I still love playing music as much as I did back in Junior High School. I own my own home near the east coast of Florida, and other than about 2 more years of mortgage payments, I have no debt at all. I'm making a living doing music and nothing but music.
As I said before, life is short, and there is no guarantee of an afterlife. If the clergy is correct, that will be great, but this life is the proverbial bird in the hand. Most people spend at least 2/3 of their waking hours at work. If your work is your bliss, you can spend that time in your bliss.
If you don't enjoy playing music and if you aren't willing to give up the Rolex and wear a Timex, or give up the Hummer and drive a Caravan, then you shouldn't be a musician. But for me, I have no need to compete with the neighbors to get a Hummer (I don't even like them), my Timex keeps perfect time, and I am enjoying my life. From the time I wake up until I go to sleep at night, I don't even feel like I'm working. But then I've always valued experiences over possessions anyway. Jamming with the Funk Brothers, Eric Burdon, Rick Derringer, Ira Sullivan, are worth more to me than the Hope Diamond. Playing in China and later walking on the Great Wall, seeing the Terracotta Army in person, going in the Forbidden City, and watching cormorant fishing on the Li River are worth more to me than a garage full of Hummers. Making friends in Puerto Rico, Jamacia, Canada, Mexico, and other countries and discussing world views with them is better to me than a dozen Rolexes. But that's me.
But we all have our priorities. If you need the Hummer, Rolex, Diamonds, and other material goods, don't go into the music business. Very few of us get there. Better stay away from pro sports, and all the other arts, and I hope whatever you chose works for you.
We all HAVE to make a living. At least those of us without parents in the upper 5%. So if I have to make a living, I'm going to make it by doing something I truly enjoy. And I've done that.
I've played songs written by Pyotr Tchaikovsky, Goffin & King, Willie Dixon, Davis & Bacharach, Lennon & McCartney, Leiber & Stoller, Antonin Dvorak, Paul Desmond, Kris Kristofferson, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Sedaka & Greenfield, Pomus & Shuman, Rogers & Hart, James Brown, Gershwin & Gershwin, McKinley Morganfield, Cole Porter, Bob Dylan, Otis Blackwell, and scores for other composers of popular and not-so popular music from the last few centuries. Each style requires me to put on a different musical 'hat' and I truly like that. I'm in my 60s now and am not even beginning to get tired of it. There is so much more to explore. There are so many more tunes to learn. And so many more musical instruments go learn to play.
Not only am I making a living playing music, I'm LIVING my life thanks to music. YMMV
Notes
Notes,
I am not dissing the tune, I would just like to stop the replay button in my brain.
I'll start to work on a Ray Charles' Drown In My Own tears, that should clear the head.
Later,
Sometimes the weirdest tunes appear in my head. Songs I haven't heard for years, and even songs I didn't especially care for. The only way to get them out is to replace them with something else, and "Drown In My Own Tears" is an excellent substitute
Notes
I just thought of a song I wish I could cover and it might make some laugh:
Captain & Tenille's "Love Will Keep Us Together". Still one of my favorite keyboard basslines of all time.
-Scott
Ah .... Ray Charles. I have a friend here who recently added "You Don't Know Me" to her show. And when she sings "Afraid and shy... I let my chance go by...." in the bridge, all the feeling I have for her but can't act on come out and I get teary eyed. This is one of those "She is the most awesome girl I know but it ain't gonna happen" scenarios.
On topic.... she COULD make her living just from music, but she is well into a career that is her security. She is doing an album right now and from the rushes I have heard it belongs on a Nashville radio station right now!! She could do it. She chooses not to. Part time only.
I write my own songs but I like doing cover songs. Bob and I had a blast doing our latest - Walk A Mile In My Shoes by Joe South and the response so far is that people are really enjoying it.
When I lived in Nashville, I always enjoyed a good writers night but I also enjoyed a good cover or tribute band. Heck, I've even enjoyed some good Elvis impersonators. If it's a song I like and the performance is good I'm getting caught up in the music and having a good time.
Kudos to Notes and Lelani for sticking with their passion for playing live and making their living from it. And others on here as well.
There's nothing like that energy from a live audience. Writing a good song is a high I love too but it's apples and oranges.
For someone starting out today I think it might be harder to make a living playing live unless they are willing to travel, are very good at promoting themselves and make the right connections. But to a certain degree it's always been that way.
Even making it a secondary income, I agree much depends on location, how far you're willing to go and how much time, effort and money you're willing to invest. Our own Silvertones has made an inspiring effort and had some real ups and downs - most just because of his location.
And for you, Josie, it is extra hard because you never know when half of your state will be under water.... gotta be rough to have a gig canceled because the venue is floating away.
I never asked... are you far away from the coast so you don't have to worry about the flooding?
I had a very nice job (career if you like) and played in several bands at the same time. Not a lot of gigs and the money was not important (if you split by 6 people, the pay isn't all that good...)
Then I was asked to do solo-gigs using backing tracks. Rate of gigs went up and the pay was quadrupled. I had a 40+ -hour day job and three all-night gigs a week. Sure, I made a lot of money, but being married and a baby coming... My wife and I decided that we wanted to have more quality time. And so we bought just that: time for ourself. Unfortunately it was not possible to do my job part-time. Stepping down the career ladder was no option for the company. So we decided that I quit my job. That was the moment that I went "Pro". That was 6 years ago.
It all went pretty well. Sure, we didn't have the double income any longer. But I was making the same or more money than my regular job. Now with the crises and all the gigs got fewer. But I record bands and choirs with my mobile recording studio (48 separate tracks digital) and I do jobs as a sound engineer.
So you can say I still make my living with music. I am still self-employed. Though I love recording, producing and doing live sound engineering, I can happily say that the gigrate is going up again.
And what is wrong with playing certain songs that the audience wants to hear? Does playing that song makes you a lousy musician? Is it because it has three simple chords and that it isn't a challenge for you as a musician? For me, I get a lot of enjoyment out the reaction of the audience. If they like the songs (even if they're not my taste) and have a good time with them, who am I to say they're listening to the wrong kind of music? Should I tell them that what they like isn't really music?
If you want to sell your goods, you'll have to produce what the people want. If your customers want a cheap car with a large payload area, you better not make a Ferrari...
Mike, that is the gist of the discussion. There is a group that is happy to play "that set list" and those who are not. Those who play music for 100% of their income have to take jobs sometimes that require playing songs they don't enjoy. They are able to put on the game face and play those songs. I would hate it, so I don't do it, though that's not the only reason. I can't cut it anymore.
Your car analogy kind of works, but it's maybe 10 degrees off center. You can choose to sell a lot of cheap cars or 1 really expensive one. If you make your living selling cheap cars, sell as many as you can using any means necessary. If you have other income and any money made selling cars is a windfall, then you are in the other group.
Nobody is telling the crowd what to like. However, the guys who won't play "that set list" ARE telling the crown what they are going to hear, like it or not. And if it's not, I won't be back and won't really care. I pay my bills from my day job these days. Judging by your photo I am a lot older than you and I am at an age where toting barge and lifting bale (setup and teardown) is not all that attractive to me. I play one show per year now, and at that show I just show up with my horns, someone carries them in for me, I play, someone carries my horns out, and they then stay in my 2nd floor studio until rehearsals start next year. I play them all year, but for what I enjoy now after retiring from the band life, writing and recording. And if I never sell a song, so be it. I will keep trying until I don't have breath left to blow though my saxes. But schlepping gear from bar to bar or bowling alley to bowling alley... that's not for me anymore.
I have SO loved this discussion!!!
Eddie,
Don't have to worry about that. A cat 2 and we're all outta here. Thank God I'm far enough inland that my home has never flooded. Got caught in street flooding once in my car when the rain deluge overwhelmed the pumps. We have pumps sort of like N.O. After what happened in N.O. we may all be fleeing a cat 1.
But in winter we get lots of nice days when the rest of the country is iced. And what other state would create a seasoning spice blend that's so hot it's called, "Slap Ya Mama." LOL!
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I just thought of a song I wish I could cover and it might make some laugh:
Captain & Tenille's "Love Will Keep Us Together". Still one of my favorite keyboard basslines of all time.
-Scott
OK confession time . . . Captain & Tenille's "Do That To Me One More Time" is on my playlist from time to time. But speaking of this duo here is a clip of them playing with my cousin Murphy Campo's Band on Burbon Street a few years back Muskrat Ramble
I would love some Dixieland realtracks by this guy! The good news is that I had the pleasure of playing quite a few gigs with him over the years.
Enjoy,
When I was very young, I started playing pop music. I was in Junior High School, we played classical in band, standards in the after-school "stage band" and top40 with my friends. The top40 was our music, the rebellious rock and roll.
But back then I had my standards. I refused to play country music. Back then country was very simplistic (so was pop), had no saxophones (with the exception of Boots Randolph) and it whined a lot.
A couple of years later, we had to learn a country song for a bar owner that we played regularly in. The guitar player said, "It's acting. Just put on an imaginary cowboy hat and pretend." So he taught me the song on the bass, the bass player played rhythm guitar, and I was off in root/five land. I was actually pretty happy to be playing another instrument.
I don't have those "standards" anymore. Whether the song is challenging or simplistic, I just put on the appropriate imaginary hat and have fun doing it.
But I have to be able to pull it off and it has to work with your baby-boomer targeted audience. So that means no rap and no heavy metal. But if we had enough requests AND if we could cover the song in our duo, I'd learn it, put on the imaginary hat and have a good time exploring that genre.
So who cares if it's a song by the Archies or Buck Owens and his Buckaroos? Not me.
When I was in school and in the concert band we played everything from Modest Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition" to Antonín Dvořák's "New World Sympbony" (both great pieces of music) to Franz Lehár's "Merry Widow Waltz" which is as corny to my ears as Muskrat Love.
I take them as the come, have fun doing them, and put my all into each performance. And it's a lot more fun than back in my youth when I had things I didn't want to play.
Notes
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When I was in school and in the concert band we played everything from Modest Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition"
And in a sense Emerson, Lake and Palmer could be considered a Mussorgsky and Gershwin cover band since they also did the Fanfare from Rodeo.....
Procol Harum did Bach in "A Whiter Shade Of Pale", Dan Fogelberg took the meldody from Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture" and turned it into his "Same Old Lang Syne", The Nice did Sibelius and Bach, Barry Manilow's "Could This Be Magic" is basically a Prelude by Chopin (and he even shared with him the writer's credit), and dozens of others abound.
Plus every Symphony Orchestra in the world is basically a Cover Band. They don't write their own music.
How many great jazz artists covered Broadway show tunes? Can't count them all.
There is nothing wrong with playing songs written by other people. There is nothing wrong with writing your own songs. There is nothing wrong with writing songs for other people to play.
This whole idea that doing someone else's songs makes you a "cover band" and is a negative term is something invented by people who haven't got anything better to do but try to elevate themselves by cutting other people down. But the joke is on them, IMHO it doesn't elevate them one bit, instead it puts a dark cloud over their name.
Notes
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This whole idea that doing someone else's songs makes you a "cover band" and is a negative term is something invented by people who haven't got anything better to do but try to elevate themselves by cutting other people down.
This is one of the better quotes from this great thread so far (Thanks for ALL the reply's folks, it has been a great read!)
And this also brings up another thing I have seen for decades, the jealousy of folks that ARE making their living in a "cover band" or "pick-up" bands....I personally ran into this a lot...
More power to the ones who refuse to play "that list", and turn their nose up at all the "boring" gigs...you are the ones that kept me working all these years!
There are a LOT of great players out there that could / can run circles around me as a drummer, bass player, or guitar layer....but feel it is "beneath them" to play "that music" for $65 for 4 hours...$16.25 an hour if you don't pay taxes, less if you keep yer books.
As for load in & load out, I never considered that because that is part of the game. As for food, gas, wear & tear on your vehicle & such, keep books & deduct it...simple! This was the part I HATED, but it is a biz and it needs to be treated as such.
Again, this has been a great read!
People have been in cover bands ever since there were paid court musicians - even way back to the writing of the Psalms and probably before that. Many of the Psalms have notes at the opening (to be played or sung according to the tune of ____ ). When king Saul hired David, what was it for? Saul hired David to play the lyre for him when Saul was being tormented.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20samuel%2016&version=NIVDavid is credited with writing many of the Psalms. Take note that in some of his Psalms (for example, Psalm 22) David writes who the Psalm is for in Saul's organization and to what tune it's supposed to use. Here's the note from the NIV for Psalm 22: For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
David was writing lyrics to a cover tune. Sure looks like he was hired to do so, as he submitted the lyrics to the director of music (he wasn't the director of music at the time - I wonder who was?)
These Biblical references are in no way intended to try to introduce a religious bent to this discussion, but only to show that cover tunes have been a regular part of society and put meat on the table for probably the world's most famous lyric writer with documented texts. There are probably others from other cultures and religions for which I have no awareness.
For me, if I didn't learn how to play cover tunes, my songwriting skills would suffer. Then again, I've only been paid to play a few times in my past, so I'm not making a living at it. If I did, then it would be called 'work' and not 'play' - to me at least. Notes' notes here give me some pangs of jealousy, but he has had to work really hard at what he does, to get to the point of being able to enjoy all aspects of his music playing. Even bands that do just their own songs tire of their own songs.
I remember going to a Chris Rice concert (Chris is a popular singer/songwriter in Christian Pop) where he HAD to sing his CARTOON song. He wrote a song that dropped cartoon names by the dozen as a sort of joke and it became his most popular song. He seemed loath to sing it, but honestly, it sold tons of his CDs at the time. He has officially laid the song to rest:
http://www.chrisrice.com/articles.php?id=11-Scott
It isn't just about bands playing cover music. It's the ones who say ridiculous things like "That's not how the solo goes". Not how the solo goes? Isn't the solo section where a musician can express himself? There is one popular trib band here who passed on a great drummer who, at his audition, "hit the wrong cymbal". Huh? You have to cover so close that you care what cymbal the guy hit? That is like firing a sax player because the guy in the band they are copying plays Rico reeds and your sax player plays La Voz.
Now, if you are playing Yakkety Sax, of course there is a melody to that instrumental and you need to follow it, but to force a player to completely ape a solo.... that's where the difference is between someone who can repeat and someone who can create. That is the reason I have never and will never see a "tribute band". That is just another word for "copy band". A copy band that only copies one act maybe, but still a copy band.
IF you have to cover, make the songs your own. I can't stand the jukebox mentality.
I had a horn player once tell me "They play 2 1/8th notes there and we are only playing one!" And I am trying to picture some drunken fool in a bar saying "I am NEVER coming to see you again!!! There are supposed to be TWO 1/8th notes there and you only played ONE!!!" Yet how many bands actually waste rehearsal time over silly crap like that?
Answer: every copy band everywhere.
Now, comparing Sinatra singing a Cole Porter song to a cover band playing whatever 40 pieces of crap they can wing without rehearsal is ridiculous and you know it is. The point is not what comes out of their mouths. The point is the willingness to and ability to take those 12 notes and tell your own story, not someone else's. If that doesn't matter to you, so be it. I cook too, but I rarely use a recipe. I don't want to cook Emeril's dishes. I want to cook my dishes. I don't open up Word and type Moby Dick. That's been done. I want to write MY book.
Once again, that's just me and mileage may vary.
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And in a sense Emerson, Lake and Palmer could be considered a Mussorgsky and Gershwin cover band since they also did the Fanfare from Rodeo.....
Back in the day with the Vegas show group I did Emerson's version of Hoedown as an instrumential feature on B3. Me and the guitarist transcribed the whole thing note for note by ear. We put in a jazz break in the middle of it. That was the only time in my life I got standing O's for a performance. Not every show of course but often enough. We were the only band in Musart's stable that did strong instrumental's as part of our show. All the other groups were excellent but they were typical Vegas vocal groups. We had some resistance to that but we proved through management reports that strong instrumentals will go over if the showmanship is there. We didn't have to do Feelings and Brother Love all night but we still did those. The bandleader did MacArthur Park as a serious almost over the top classical style thing on a grand piano for show set 1, Hoedown was set 2 and our guitarist did Classical Gas as a feature in set 3 sitting on a stool in front of everybody with a small spot on him. He was scared to the death the first time he did that, me and the leader were behind our big pieces of stage furniture but he was out there like a bug on a plate. All three of us got our share of standing O's.
Yeah, you can make a living in music under certain conditions. I know for a fact in the past and maybe even now all I have to do is call some agents and I would get on with somebody and hit the road. Again. I can see it now, Grandpa Bob is back!!
Bob
OK Bob . . . I think this is my second "Well Said" to you on this thread.
Well Said (again)!
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Yeah, you can make a living in music under certain conditions. I know for a fact in the past and maybe even now all I have to do is call some agents and I would get on with somebody and hit the road. Again. I can see it now, Grandpa Bob is back!!
As long as they have soup and soft foods on the dressing room buffet...
Let's all not lose sight of the fact that there are a lot of ways to make money in music outside of schlepping gear from bar to bar. You can schlep it to a studio and do commercial spots, create your own Wrecking Crew, write spots for ads, soundtrack for The Weather Channel.... a friend here did a spot for an annual winter event that is running for like the 18th year now. I dod one long ago that was soundtrack behind a video for some environmental waste company and they needed me for synth sound effects. I worked maybe 45 minutes (over 6 hours) and got a check that just broke 4 figures. If I could do one of those a week and sneak it under the tax radar....
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This whole idea that doing someone else's songs makes you a "cover band" and is a negative term is something invented by people who haven't got anything better to do but try to elevate themselves by cutting other people down. But the joke is on them, IMHO it doesn't elevate them one bit, instead it puts a dark cloud over their name.
+2 to Bob and Peter.
Eddie,
Now it's copy songs!?
C'mon Eddie. Me thinks thou protest too much. Are people lining up to pay you to play YOUR songs?
Sorry to interrupt, but for some reason I am seeing "me thinks" everywhere these days. It is actually "methinks". The only reason I know that is that a moronic sports writer used it frequently in a really dumb recent column and someone pointed that discrepancy out (I had to look it up to confirm). It is OK for you and I, Bob, to not know that -- but a journalist should not get that wrong.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Are people lining up to pay you to play YOUR songs?
They didn't line up to see me play covers either, so why would they?
Everybody reads SO much into my words.
I never said it doesn't take talent to play cover music.
I never said you can't do very well playing cover music.
I never said "the big ones" don't play other writer's music.
Yes, Sinatra sang songs written by the best composers. Yes you can make a decent living playing cover music. Yes, it takes a lot of work and talent to be good at it.
Do you not see the difference between standing in front of an 19 piece band in a tux singing A Foggy Day In London Town in a nice theater with tiered seating that has professional lighting with follow spot, and playing Freebird in a bar full of bikers?
If you don't see the difference, then I shouldn't be discussing this with you.
Yes, I prefer original bands to copy bands. I prefer to see musician who stretch themselves beyond listening to CDs all day and copying what they heard. I believe it takes a higher skill level to write GOOD songs. (And if I ever write one, I hope someone buys it and records it.) That being said, it would be the biggest rush ever to do that big band show in the tux and sing a night of Cole Porter and George Gershwin and Harold Arlen and Irving Berlin and Lerner and Lowe music. Would it work in The Saddlebag Bar where the bikers hang out? Of course not. So don't book The Saddlebag Bar! And that's where you get into love vs money. I also need to point out that I don't sing anywhere near close to well enough to pull that show off, but damn, I'd sure be willing to do it anyway. Even though I would not have written ONE of those songs..... there is a difference between classic songs written by revered composers and Billy Don't Be A Hero. Yes, they are both copying someone else's music, but to use examples like Mozart as "cover music" is just a ridiculous argument. I don't know a lot of bands playing Marriage of Figaro in a bar.
Eddie you wrote: "I want to write MY book."
Well, then you have to write it. Same with music. If you don't want to play "Freebird" and whatever other songs are on your list that you can't stand then don't. Write some songs that people want to hear.
I see a paradox in your earlier posts in this thread and some other recent threads and these most recent posts. You talked about your Motown band. Originals or covers? Covers = you are editing and presenting someone else's book; you've changed the characters slightly, the ending has a twist, etc. - but it's still someone else's book that you are reading with a different voice than what they originally wrote in.
What I read you saying now is that you want to do original music. If not, then I can completely understand when the audience or even other band members want to hear the song in it's most popular rendition. Unless it's the artist recognized as either the author of the song, or the artist that made it popular.
If I was a smooth vocalist and I decided to sing 'Moon River', the audience is gonna want to hear me at least ape part of Andy Williams (RIP), even if he wasn't the first to sing it.
Here's Andy Williams singing it in the early 60's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK4pmJQ6zgMAnd then in 1970:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0UUP7g-0MDang - if that's not nearly the same I don't know what is. Even he would have caused a ruckus if he got all jazzy with HIS version of the song, to 'make it his own' as is spoken of by covers of songs these days. And it wasn't his song, but his version is what is best loved. 8 years passed between those videos and you hear Andy copying his own inflections, slides, grace notes and what not 8 years passing. How many times do you think he performed that song in those 8 years? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10,000 times. Don't you think he wanted to bust out of that mold a little more during that time? He couldn't. His high paying, making a living JOB was to sing that song the way the buying public wanted it to be sung. His job was to be his own tribute singer to try to nail his popular version for as long as he could do it to whatever paying listener was in the audience.
So, I am confused as to your protests about having to follow a popular rendition of popular songs, as a performing artist. I understand about the nit-picky comments of whether it's a single cymbal crash vs. splash and so forth.
When I listen to Comfortably Numb, I want to hear David Gilmour's solos - not some 'artistic' rendition. I want to hear those huge string bends and the smooth cool-ness of the perfectly placed long triplet runs over 4/4 time rhythm. If it's David Gilmour playing it or someone else, it doesn't matter - the note choices were ace in the original recording and will forever be ace. One of the few guitar solos that to me cannot be messed with because I will miss the goosebumps that I get EVERY time I hear Gilmour's original recorded version and people that can ape it well with similar tone.
There are some exceptions, I think I prefer Seal's version of "Fly Like An Eagle" over Steve Miller bands original. But I like both versions. However, that's not a solo-centric song like Comfortably Numb, or like a solo performer iconic performance like Andy Williams' Moon River (which is originally Mancini/Mercer, correct?)
Maybe that's where your protest breaks down. What caused a song to be iconic? If it's a particular solo, then you have to nail the solo. It's the voice of the song. If it's a solo artist, and not a full-on band performance, then I would say that there's probably much less room for improvisation and creative room than with a band-centric performance where even the famous band took their own liberties with the songs.
It's one of the reasons I usually avoid 'Live' CDs, let alone going to hear a local band play cover tunes. The 'Live' CD is often a disappointment to me, not due to any ineptitude by the band/artist, but often they go off on a different tangent than where the original recording takes me emotionally.
Does that make sense?
Eddie,
I don’t make a living playing music and neither do you, but there are a few people on this forum who do.
Whether you realize it or not, your incessant rants against performers who are playing what people want to hear is insulting those musicians big time. The topic is “Could You Live From Making Music?”
Some folks have answered very affirmatively by going out and doing it. There’s not a good reason in the world for you to put them down for doing so.
I was composing my response immediately above while Eddie answered.
No, Bob, I am not putting anybody down. The question is whether you can make a living in music. You can, and many do. My point is that there are different paths to follow. I played in nothing BUT copy bands. I never had the skills to go beyond regional. I, me, myself, personally..... I prefer to see, when spending my entertainment dollars, a local band playing original music over one that plays covers. You guys who are telling me about how the entertainment giants do other people's music are mixing apples and nectarines. Major, viable performers tour to sell albums. Taylor Swift is maybe the hottest act right now, and she will tour again soon to promote her next album (whenever that is). When she does that tour, she will perform her hits from her older albums so her fan base gets to sing along. But do you think she won't do 6-7 cuts from the album the tour supports? And to say that her doing her older material makes her a "cover" act... c'mon guys.
The point is, it's a different game at that level.
As to Scott's example, it comes down to this. Do you want to be Andy Williams singing Moon River or Henry Mancini writing it? I would rather write a song once and make money every time Andy sings is than Andy having to sing it 250 nights in 250 cities every year. It hasn't happened for me, and won't if it hasn't by now.
I am pretty much going to duck out of this debate. You guys are taking simple, general comments and using ridiculous examples to try and make your point. Whether Sinatra sang songs written by other people or not is not the issue. It's about "The Booze Hounds" playing Joe's Bar. That is reality. If The Booze Hounds are happy and make a living playing 3 hours of Beatles and Stones covers, god bless them. That kind of thing isn't for me. It would not make me happy, so I don't do it. That doesn't mean I am right and they are wrong. How is saying that playing covers for a living wouldn't be enjoyable for me putting YOU down if it is?
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It isn't just about bands playing cover music. It's the ones who say ridiculous things like "That's not how the solo goes". Not how the solo goes?......
.....
Yet how many bands actually waste rehearsal time over silly crap like that?
Answer: every copy band everywhere.
And this is a GOOD thing IMHO!!!! If you are making a living at this you need to do it right, be it originals OR copy...the public is not a bunch of fools, most of the time they know the tune better than some musicians!
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Whether Sinatra sang songs written by other people or not is not the issue. It's about "The Booze Hounds" playing Joe's Bar. That is reality. If The Booze Hounds are happy and make a living playing 3 hours of Beatles and Stones covers, god bless them.
If I am taking this out of context, please forgive me, but your generalization that the topic I started was about a bunch of "Booze Hounds", or poor players, or weekend warriors, then YOU miss the point. And I say this because of the "That is reality." comment.
Personal attacks & name calling, even if it is not aimed at anyone, can be just as insulting as if it WAS aimed at someone. I have no animosity towards you Eddie, but it seems like you need to drive home your bitterness allot, and get very verbose if no one agrees with ya.
I hope you don't drop out of the thread just because of this.....
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You guys are taking simple, general comments and using ridiculous examples to try and make your point.
Please point out a few of these, becasue I have not seen this....
Since the topic has obviously changed from “Could You Live From Making Music?” to cover songs, I’ll weigh in on that.
I enjoy hearing someone take a classic song and then make it their own by playing their own rendition of it. I don’t want to hear them perfectly mimic the original artist’s version. I want them to put a new twist on it. If it’s a good song, it’s ripe for new interpretations.
The perfect example would be “Cold, Cold Heart” by Hank Williams. …From Wiki:
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"Cold, Cold Heart" has since been recorded by many other artists, including Louis Armstrong, Tony Bennett, Donald Peers, Petula Clark, Johnny Cash, Nat King Cole, Aretha Franklin, Bill Haley & His Comets, Rosemary Clooney, Dinah Washington, Norah Jones, Lucinda Williams, Ronnie Hawkins, Raul Malo, George Jones, David Allan Coe, Guy Mitchell, Teresa Brewer, Jerry Lee Lewis, Cowboy Junkies, Frankie Laine, and Jo Stafford.
That’s a pretty impressive list of people who recorded a “cover”. I haven’t heard them all, but I feel safe in saying that NONE of them tried to mimic Hank Williams version.
I’ve always liked the song, but I grew to love it after hearing Norah Jones do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g35zS1tVO...ture=plpp_video
I suspect that Hank would be proud. So play your “covers” and don’t be afraid to put your own spin on it.
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It isn't just about bands playing cover music. It's the ones who say ridiculous things like "That's not how the solo goes". Not how the solo goes? Isn't the solo section where a musician can express himself?
That's a touchy subject. I wonder how many headliners who had the studio musicians like "The Wrecking Crew" record their backing tracks, and then had to learn the solo like the studio guy played it. And how many others improvised something in the studio, and had to memorize that for playing live. I know if I went to see the Eagles do "Hotel California" I'd want to hear the solo on the record, and if they liked, they could extend it with improvisations that I never heard before. On other songs, I'd like a totally improvised solo. But as a musician listener, I'd be happy with whatever they played.
Being in a variety band, I have more options. When we do "Black Magic Woman" I try to play Carlos Santana's solo as close as possible. Why? I think it's beautiful. There are a few songs I do that on. But most songs I prefer to improvise my solo and not pay tribute to the recording. It's my choice.
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There is one popular trib band here who passed on a great drummer who, at his audition, "hit the wrong cymbal". Huh? You have to cover so close that you care what cymbal the guy hit? That is like firing a sax player because the guy in the band they are copying plays Rico reeds and your sax player plays La Voz.
Sounds like a band I wouldn't join. But then, to be in a tribute band for me would be boring. As much as I like any particular band, I would also want to play other music.
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Now, if you are playing Yakkety Sax, of course there is a melody to that instrumental and you need to follow it, but to force a player to completely ape a solo.... that's where the difference is between someone who can repeat and someone who can create. That is the reason I have never and will never see a "tribute band". That is just another word for "copy band". A copy band that only copies one act maybe, but still a copy band.
I'm with you on that, with the exception of Symphony Orchestras. I'd go to an all Prokofiev or an all Dvorak concert.
I've never had a desire to see a tribute band or a tribute artist. But if someone else wants to be an Elvis impersonator or a Rod Stewart impersonator or if a band wants to be a Steely Dan impersonator or a Led Zep impersonator, it's OK with me. Others enjoy doing it and it pulls a crowd (or else they wouldn't keep dong it). I have no disrespect for them, but my own personal desire is to not attend. But then I don't watch sports, or for that matter, any TV at all. I'd rather watch a month of cover bands than a day of televised football or faux news.
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IF you have to cover, make the songs your own. I can't stand the jukebox mentality.
I play some like the record, some similar to the record and some totally re-arranged. It depends on the song and my prediction of what the audience wants (unfortunately I'm not clairvoyant so I don't have a 100% track record).
When I was young, back before DJs and Discos, we tried to cover every song 'like the record' with the exception of most solo improvisations. I never minded that. And today, I try to cover some songs like the record and I still don't mind. Others I play my way. Either way I enjoy it.
When I was in concert band, we played the notes on the page. The conductor coaxed his expression out of us within the limits of the notes on the page. I enjoyed that but wouldn't want to be in a symphony. On the other hand, I've talked to musicians in symphony orchestras after the concert and they tell me how much fun they had.
There is more than one right way to do this, and what works for one, won't work for another. And personally, I don't care what other musicians think of my act, and whether they want to stay or walk out. I do have musician friends who come to listen, and I'm sure others don't. I'm secure enough in my playing to not care what other musicians think of me. There are better musicians out there and worse ones too. It's a fact of life.
I do care what the audience thinks of me. They are my partners. So far the mix I'm doing is working.
For those who do original material only, more power to you. I'll gladly take the gigs you reject, and I hope some day you will be so famous that I'll get to cover one of your songs. Like Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Aretha Franklin, The Cleveland Orchestra, The Czech Philharmonic, and all the artists/bands that did King/Goffin, Leiber/Stoller, Mann/Weill, Gershwin/Gershwin, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, etc. songs, I don't feel I have to write the songs I sing/play. IMHO some songwriters shouldn't sing (like Bob Dylan or Taylor Swift) -- they may be great songwriters but Dylan can't sing and Swift needs auto-tune. Writing skills and performing skills are not always gifted to the same person. So let the writers write, the singers sing, and for those who can do both well, enjoy your gifts and go for it. IMHO there is nothing wrong with doing other people's material, whether it is by Muddy Waters, George Harrison, or Dmitri Shostakovitch.
Since I got out of school, I've had only two day jobs in my life while testing out the 'real world'. That proved to me that being a musician is not what I do, but what I am. Other than those two short-term day gigs, I've never worked a day in my life, I've played -- and that's a good thing for me.
Notes
This discussion got way off course, veering into "doing A cover tune" vs "doing 3 hours of copy tunes".
Once again, FOR MY TASTES, I would prefer 50 minutes of mediocre originals to 3 hours of perfectly executed covers because the writing is what stretches the player into another level. I know of great players everywhere that have yet to have even one original thought, be it writing a poem, a limerick, telling a story with lyrics.... FOR ME, that is the side of this I am most interested in and impressed with.
I have a friend here who has the best voice I have heard since Emmylou Harris. She plays in 2 bands. When I go see her, when they do the old country classics, the old folkie classics... yes it is entertaining to hear sing. But my ears perk up when they do songs she wrote. Those are emotional things coming out of her. The first day of music classes in college, the prof will ask "What is music?" and the correct answer is "Music is expressed emotion". I am sure when Hank Williams wrote "Cold Cold Heart", it meant something personal to him. It doesn't to me. My song "Do It All Again" means something to me. It wouldn't to Hank. (Particulary since he has been dea for a long time.) A GOOD original takes your emotions and reaches out and grabs someone elses emotions. That girl I mentioned writes that way. When she sings about some event in her life, it makes you feel like it happened to you, and in a sense, in our own way, it has. We have likely experienced something similar and there's a connection.
And again, for me, my opinion, what I prefer, what I would pay to see.... is THAT kind of performer. For the same reason you may like slasher movies and I hate them.... I don't go to bars at all and never see cover bands. I DO go to concerts, like Mary Chapin Carpenter, Bonnie Raitt, etc.... and yes they played older songs, but they were older songs they wrote. Of course you play songs teh crowd knows, but they also played a sample from the new album they were on tour with, and sales in both cases were quite good. (I am cheap so I didn't buy one, but I'm just sayin'...)
On topic, those 2 artists make a living touring and selling CDs. Others make a living hosting jam night. Whatever fills your sails.
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<...>Do you not see the difference between standing in front of an 19 piece band in a tux singing A Foggy Day In London Town in a nice theater with tiered seating that has professional lighting with follow spot, and playing Freebird in a bar full of bikers?
If you don't see the difference, then I shouldn't be discussing this with you.<...>
I've played in dives, I've played in singles bars, I've played in Yacht Clubs, I've played in 5 star hotels, I've played on cruise ships, I've played in show clubs, I've played in huge venues like Cobo Hall warming up for headliners, I've even played in China. In some respects there are no difference between the gigs. The band is on stage, the audience is out there, and the band tries to capture the audience. I played a Biker Bar and had just as good of a time as I do in the Yacht Club.
We don't do Free Bird but we do Sweet Home Alabama and I enjoy that as much as I enjoy anything else I play.
I've had as much fun playing in a little intimate bar as I did warming up for headliners. It's like the difference between eating steak and pizza. Both are fun.
So while there is a difference in audiences, and a difference in the way you present yourself and the tunes you select, in the end it's all the same, musician(s) and an audience coming together to have some fun. I'm sure those rappers are having as much fun a I am, even though I have no desire to be a rapper.
And whether you are doing Bieber or Mozart covers, yes, you are doing covers, and if you are doing them well, you should feel good about yourself. You don't have to be in a bar to play cover music, you can do it in a concert hall too.
Back on topic. Can you make a living playing music? Yes but like Beethoven and Shostakovitch, there will be compromises you have to make. But you can say the same thing about any profession or even any job. Can you make a living hanging wallpaper? I knew a guy who did, and while he loved most of it, he hated papering bathrooms. Can you make a living being a Gigolo? Yes but some of your dates would be the kind you would rather not take to dinner. Can you make a living being an engineer? Yes but the company you work for is going to want you to engineer a few things that are both beneath your talents and boring.
The key is, you can make a living doing anything that there is a demand for. But to do so, 99% of us will have to make some compromises along the way.
Notes
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I enjoy hearing someone take a classic song and then make it their own by playing their own rendition of it. I don’t want to hear them perfectly mimic the original artist’s version.
I've got to go with Bob on this one.
I once had to mark a piece at university which was a test of recording skill. The student could have recorded anything, but chose to do a Hendrix number, probably to show off his musical skill as well. He painstakingly tabbed up every single note and every drum beat. He spent hours recreating the exact guitar sounds and got a really good singer to do a brilliant Hendrix impersonation.
When we listened to it, we fell on the floor laughing. It sounded exactly like the original track, but with the life-blood drained out of it. It was bizarre, like Hendrix had recorded it after he died. Now if it had been a different interpretation of the song, it would have been judged on it's own merits, rather than as a xerox copy.
If I want to hear the original version of anything, I'll put on the Jukebox.
ROG.
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As to Scott's example, it comes down to this. Do you want to be Andy Williams singing Moon River or Henry Mancini writing it? I would rather write a song once and make money every time Andy sings is than Andy having to sing it 250 nights in 250 cities every year. It hasn't happened for me, and won't if it hasn't by now.
I prefer to write/record/perform my own music. I've recorded exactly two cover tunes that were not public domain in the entire time that I've been doing home recording. When I play at church - my only regular 'gig' - I'm doing essentially covers with the intention to gather the congregation into a unified act of praise and/or worship. Playing it how they are used to hearing it has it's purpose there that is different than in other venues, but playing it familiar is still important.
In several threads you've been raising the issue that you can't make a living as a performing musician because you have to play 'that list' of songs to do so - at least that was the gist that I read in your threads. Here in these last few pages, it seems to have turned the tide to wanting to do originals.
When I post on music forums, it's my own stuff 99.9% of the time. The one time I did a semi-popular cover was for Beck's "The Golden Age" for a song contest over at the KVRaudio forums. I tried to copy the vibe as best possible. I picked that song because of it's production elements that I didn't know how to do before I started. Those contests were limited to 2 minute entries at the time. My 2 minute version: http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/songs/new...ute%20cover.mp3
Beck's version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zAT15vaFk
I shortened the intro to just a single time through the progression so that I could get at least the intro a verse and a chorus in under 2 minutes. I still have tweaks that I would do to get it to sound more like his version. But I learned how to do BGVs, double tracking of acoustic guitars, etc. by trying to copy. I happened to win the contest that month out of about 50 entries. I got some cool music software as the prize. People first accused me of just submitting Beck's version until someone posted a snippet of the actual song and heard that I was swinging the acoustic rhythm and vocal quality was different, etc.
But most of the time, I write and compose and arrange my own stuff. I will do the occasional Christmas tune as my online Christmas card to family friends and whomever else will listen.
Eddie, if you lived out here in the Springs I would take you to the songwriters circle that I belong to out here. You would totally dig it.
-Scott
Interesting discussion and comments. The usual "cover/original" debate, "that list", "bar bands", etc. always surfaces in these discussions. As for that, Notes said it best when he stated that nobody wants to hear original music. He's dead right. People want to sing along and dance to familiar songs. "That list" is "that list" for a reason. To imply that playing "that list" is some form of musical prostitution is disingenuous.
Can you make a "living" playing music? Sure. Notes is doing it. Are you going to get rich playing music? Nope. Anyone who has tried knows that it's long hours for short money. Club owners will stiff you. Agents will stiff you. People will steal your stuff. You'll be loading out and driving home at 3:30 AM dodging the drunks on the highway. Having fun yet?
Yes. Entertaining people, taking away their cares and making them relive their best memories is more fulfilling than most anything I can think of. It's a privilege to entertain people, even if you have to play "that list" to do it.
Good post 90 dB. Did you know that 90 dB is the OSHA mandated limit for occupational noise exposure for an 8 hour workday?
NIOSH says it should be 85 dB.
Sorry, I let my daily work nerd talk creep into the discussion.......
I don't think it is the content at all.
It is all about the PERFORMANCE of said content, be it cover or original.
Bad Performance is bad performance, no matter if it is a cover song or an original.
Perhaps there is good reason for all the stereotyping going on concerning such in this thread, but at the end of the day it is still nothing more than stereotyping.
There are good cover bands, there are bad cover bands.
There are good original acts, there are bad original acts.
As with anything else, perhaps the bad outnumber the good.
Or perhaps it says more about where some people go to hear the acts than anything else.
Defense of the mediocre never made any sense to me.
As for whether it is better or not to play your own improvised solo or attempt to nail the wellknown solo from a target recording in a cover song, my view on that is that there are certain songs that contain solos that are actually musical hooks and in those cases the journeyman musician must both be able to determine if that is the case plus be able to learn and play that certain solo convincingly enough to pull it off and that seems to work better in those instances, judging from audience approval.
Cover or original, I'll go with Duke Ellington's famous remark, "IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD!"
--Mac
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Good post 90 dB. Did you know that 90 dB is the OSHA mandated limit for occupational noise exposure for an 8 hour workday?
NIOSH says it should be 85 dB.
Sorry, I let my daily work nerd talk creep into the discussion.......
Hence the band name. We've found that 90 dB is the best SPL for our little rig (600 watts/8 Ohms) playing restaurants. Loud enough to have some thump, but not knock the front table's drinks on the floor!
Regards,
Bob
Thing is Mac, there are also good cover SONGS.... Singing Someone To Watch Over Me, in my eyes and ears, has a different connotation than playing Mustang Sally to death. There is a subtle difference between homage and play crap just to get a bar tab.
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<...> You'll be loading out and driving home at 3:30 AM dodging the drunks on the highway. Having fun yet?
The traffic is really light at 3:30 AM - no rush hour jams. Loading equipment? How many people pay big money for a gym membership to lift heavy objects? But I can't justify the drunks on the road part - but some of the young inexperienced drivers and the elderly over-medicated drivers in the daytime are something to watch out for too.
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Yes. Entertaining people, taking away their cares and making them relive their best memories is more fulfilling than most anything I can think of. It's a privilege to entertain people, even if you have to play "that list" to do it.
+1000 on the privilege part.
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<...>
Bad Performance is bad performance, no matter if it is a cover song or an original.
<...>
There are good cover bands, there are bad cover bands.
There are good original acts, there are bad original acts.
As with anything else, perhaps the bad outnumber the good.
<...>
Defense of the mediocre never made any sense to me.
Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap
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<...>
As for whether it is better or not to play your own improvised solo or attempt to nail the wellknown solo from a target recording in a cover song, my view on that is that there are certain songs that contain solos that are actually musical hooks and in those cases the journeyman musician must both be able to determine if that is the case plus be able to learn and play that certain solo convincingly enough to pull it off and that seems to work better in those instances, judging from audience approval.
Cover or original, I'll go with Duke Ellington's famous remark, "IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD!"
--Mac
And Karl Hass's frequent comment in his old radio show, Adventures In Good Music, "There are only two kinds of music, good music and bad music."
And I suppose that depends on the listener.
And I don't remember where this one came from:
"You can play for yourself, you can play for other musicians, or you can play for the general public. In either case, if you're good enough, you will get the audience you asked for."
I've played for the general public all my life, and they haven't let me down.
So what is a living? I'm not getting rich as a musician - we had a shot once but it slipped through our fingers. But I'm still making a living, paying the mortgage, living in a nicer neighborhood, and enjoying myself - never feeling like I'm actually working.
Would I be making a better living if I was making more money but spending 8+ hours on a job that felt like I was working? Doing something I'd rather not be doing? Or worse, actually disliking my job like so many I know? I don't call that living myself.
Life is short. Although the clergy promise an afterlife, there is no guarantee. So I'm going to live this life as long as I can, and have as much fun as I can, within the limits so if there is a "happy hunting ground" after this, I'll be invited in.
Notes
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This discussion got way off course, veering into "doing A cover tune" vs "doing 3 hours of copy tunes"
No, it got off course from "Could You Live From Making Music?" to a copy-original-play-or-not thread.
At least there are a few that, like myself, feel that you CAN live off of making music, and I will assume that it is at a level that THEY are comfortable with....and THAT is what the question was really....
The WAY you do it is irrelevant, are you DOING it is....
As a side note, today I got my 3rd "royalty" check for songs I have playing around the world in "muzak" play lists......I am glad I sold out my artistic soul to place these songs, that were just sitting on my HDD, out there.
Out for about 70 tunes I sent out only 33 have been picked up, but 33 have been picked up & are working for me...and that is cool!
"The traffic is really light at 3:30 AM - no rush hour jams."
We had a regular gig in Key Largo once, and had to drive the "18 Mile Stretch" home every night to Miami. Scary ride. Water on both sides and drunks in the middle!
Regards,
Bob
I never played Key Largo, although I did play Key West a few times. Rooms were included with the gig.
Yes the drunks on the road are bad. My insurance company says people talking on cell phones are just as dangerous. Day or night, you have to be careful while driving.
Right now I mostly play a quad-county area, for yacht clubs, country clubs, retirement developments, and restaurant/lounges that cater to the baby-boomer crowd. It's a rare day when the gig goes past midnight. And the traffic is very light at that hour. I consider that a plus.
Notes
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Thing is Mac, there are also good cover SONGS.... Singing Someone To Watch Over Me, in my eyes and ears, has a different connotation than playing Mustang Sally to death. There is a subtle difference between homage and play crap just to get a bar tab.
I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
They put some munny in the bowl.
As Les Paul so famously said in his autobiography, it is the working stiff who pays our salary, who comes to the venue to be entertained and to have a good time. Those "working stiffs" are actually the people who pay the musician's wages. Les said that there are some musicians who want to force the paying customer to listen to whatever the musician wants to perform, even if they have to tie the audience to the barstools to keep 'em in the joint.
Perhaps that's what you are really complaning about, dunno, but I can tell you that a performer can make a better living by responding to whomever their audience happens to be at the time.
--Mac
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<...snip...>
I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
<...>
Perhaps that's what you are really complaning about, dunno, but I can tell you that a performer can make a better living by responding to whomever their audience happens to be at the time.
--Mac
Many years agoI was in a jazz band and someone came up and asked for Patsy Cline's "Crazy" (written by Willie Nelson). The piano player refused and did it with an attitude that alienated the customer. 'Tis a shame. The chords to "Crazy" are not bad at all, better than a lot of jazz tunes, the melody is no more simplistic than a number of jazz tunes, and we would have done it our way. But the guy let his attitude get in the way.
In contrast, back in the 1970s I was in a disco trio playing a small lounge in Miami. Somebody asked for "Night Train" which is hardly a disco song. We played it and he gave each of us 3 $20 bills. Not bad for 5 minutes work, and $60 back they was worth what about $250 is today. Besides, I like "Night Train" it's a nice little blues number written by Jimmy Forrest who I think was in Duke Ellington's band at the time.
If they ask, and if I can, I play it.
If they ask, and I cannot, I complement them on their choice (even if I don't care for the song) and apologize. If I know something close, I'll try that.
If enough people ask for something I don't know how to play, and it is something we can cover, we'll learn it.
If you stand on stage long enough, the public will let you know what they want to hear.
And all of it is much better than climbing telephone polls, making sales calls, solving someone else's computer problems, doing someone else's taxes, driving a truck, removing a gall bladder, working in a retail store, managing employees who might not really want to work, or any of the other things people in the real world do for a living.
And not having to work when you are making the money to pay the mortgage is what I call living.
Notes
[/quote}I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
They put some munny in the bowl.
--Mac
In the Baton Rouge area I often get request to play some Swamp Pop, not my fovorite to say the least but because the customer is always right I have about 4-5 tunes in my rep that get me by on an occassion like this, and yes it feeds the tip jar. Now will I play a regular 100% Swamp Pop, I don't think so. Not because I think I am above it, but because that it is just not what I do, therefore I would not feel that I am giving my audience the best possible product they are paying for.
In fact I could have had a weekly gig 7 miles from my home playing a 2 hour Swamp Pop dance for 250.00. My thought was the best thing to do was recommend another musician who loves and kills Swamp Pop, I did he was hired results, everyone was happy including me.
Later.,
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Hence the band name. We've found that 90 dB is the best SPL for our little rig (600 watts/8 Ohms) playing restaurants. Loud enough to have some thump, but not knock the front table's drinks on the floor!
But do your amps go to 11? You see THESE go to 11.....
Well, could you make like 10 be 9 and then 10 would be higher?
But these go to 11....
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It's a rare day when the gig goes past midnight. And the traffic is very light at that hour.
This is why I loved the pick up bands that I worked with, most of them played all the animal clubs, where we were packed & out by 12:30....well before all the drunks caught up with us!
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And all of it is much better than climbing telephone polls, making sales calls, solving someone else's computer problems, doing someone else's taxes, driving a truck, removing a gall bladder, working in a retail store, managing employees who might not really want to work, or any of the other things people in the real world do for a living.
this is a very subjective observation, but it's being served up as absolute truth. You should at least qualify it as opinion.
It's worth noting that the things you mention as being inferior to the life of a musician are highly desirable to a lot of folks. I know people who do all of these things and more, and they would do it for free if they didn't have to pay the bills. Yes, lots of people love what they do as much as musicians do.
on the other hand, I know people who have made their whole living with music, and they're bitter, burned out and jealous of friends who went the other route.
Its also worth mentioning that you couldn't get most people in front of an audience if you threatened them with a gun. Not everybody wants that kind of exposure.
The nice thing about living in a relatively free society is that we all get to choose our poison.
The bottom line is that all professions are worked by some who hate the job and some who feel like they're living the dream. Happiness is a function of attitude, it cannot be bestowed on the worker by the job.
Hi Pat,
Perhaps not in that response, but in other responses in the same thread I think I made it very clear that being a career musician isn't for everyone. No career is for everyone.
And it works both ways. A band mate I played with 35 years ago went into the construction business. He eventually became a contractor building huge homes for the very wealthy and he makes a lot of money, has a big house, lots of expensive toys, and so on. He is burned out on construction and when I visited him a few weeks ago, he told me that he made a wrong turn and he doesn't want to be the guy who dies with the most toys anymore. But it's too late to go back to playing music. He still has his B3 but he has hardly played in in the last 35 years. And he has a huge mortgage, Porsche payments, high property taxes, and lots of other debts on his shoulders.
I know a surgeon who got burned out on the medical profession and is now teaching high school.
My father got burned out being a printer/typsetter and counted the days until retirement from the time he was in his 50s (very sad).
You can get burned out at any profession, not just Music. And the people who get burned out doesn't mean that the next person will do the same.
And a lot of people get into the music business for all the wrong reasons. Things like access to the girls, easy access to booze on the job, late night hours, it seems easy, it's 'glamorous', and so on. If you don't get into the music business because you absolutely love playing music in front of an audience and want to do that for the rest of your life, do something else.
Joseph Campbell's most famous quote is "Follow your bliss." If your bliss is playing music, building houses, climbing telephone poles, performing surgery on humans, driving a truck, being the I.T. rep, doing other people's taxes, farming, managing a retail store, writing websites, fixing motorcycles, selling furniture, landscaping, or whatever, then do it. On the other hand, if you are doing it not because you like it, but because it brings home a paycheck, gets the girls, or some other reason, you probably won't be very good at it and you will probably get burned out on it.
Back on topic. Yes you can live from making music. At least for the people born in my time. I'm not so sure about the youngsters though. I think there are fewer opportunities as the government becomes more merged with corporate power - in other words as our Republic becomes less democratic and more Fascist (per Mussolini the inventor of Fascism)
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The era of the small business is dwindling rapidly. Ma and Pa businesses are being replaced by the big box stores - the Mega-Marts (Wal Mart, Guitar Center, Target, Costco, etc.). Live entertainment is being replaced by the corporate sales/propaganda-media masquerading as entertainment-media in your living room - the TV. The USA is gradually turning into a nation of "wage slaves" (that's what the corporate bosses call you) and I was lucky to be born at the end of the era of small businesses. And a band is a small business.
If you are young and are thinking about making a living doing music, do it because you love music, because you love your audience, because you have to play music, and because it's your bliss. If not, find your bliss and make that work for you.
Notes
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My father got burned out being a printer/typsetter and counted the days until retirement from the time he was in his 50s (very sad).
Notes, based on that comment, we are now starting to connect here as far as the general theme of this thread. Imagine how it is mentally for me knowing I can NEVER retire due to bad planning and no retirement funds.
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And a lot of people get into the music business for all the wrong reasons. Things like access to the girls, easy access to booze on the job, late night hours, it seems easy, it's 'glamorous', and so on.
THESE are the people I refer to with my perceived "anti-cover band attitude". And I really don't have that attitude, though some have taken it that way. It's that bunch that think music is a good career because it is easy that I am talking about. In one of my early replies to you, I said "YOU do it right". You actually work at this. It's that other group who never practice individually, never meet as a group to rehearse and generally "mail it in" will forever be hobbyists in my mind and my opinion. Those who refuse to TRY and write a song because they think nobody will ever like it. How defeatist is that? How is that NOT setting the bar low so you are sure you can jump over it? I have (sadly?) lived my life setting goals way too high and not reaching them. I was a really good baseball player when I was young and was 100% sure I was going to play in the pros. I was a good musician and was sure I could be a star. Obviously I did not become either of those things. Now, I believe in my writing and WILL someday have a major player use one of my songs, but it's going to take a lot of hard work, but musically and technologically. I'm up for it.
Just an aside here to explain "me", the first and last time I went skiing, it was with 2 people that knew how to ski. We took the lift to the top of the hill, and I immediately went to the slope with the black diamond. I don't "start slow". I dive in. Now, to be honest, I also need to tell you that the first run down that hill didn't go well, but when I finished tumbling to the bottom, I got on the lift and went right back to the same hill. 6 or 7 tries later, I made it all the way down without falling. And somehow I manage to avoid a major injury!!
I told you that to tell you this. Because of that perspective, I viewed playing in cover bands as only the first step, a skiing lesson if you will, but there had to be another level to which I would aspire and eventually achieve. I never got there, but not because I didn't try. The aborted mission to go to LA and show them how it's done, the constant driving to work harder and be better. (Which is why I can't keep people in a band - I DEMAND commitment! We rehearse when I say we rehearse and anything short of your own death is not a valid reason to miss one. Don't even THINK you are going to come to my rehearsal with your McDonald's bag and eat your lunch on my time. Change your guitar strings at home before you get to rehearsal. Music starts at noon, not 20 after. You punch a time clock at your job. You punch one here too. It's called commitment. And that's MISTER B@stard to you.)
You can look at your past as a series of failures or as a series of experiences that forced you to learn and grow from them. I am in the second group. I believe that I never lost a game. Time just ran out.
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If you don't get into the music business because you absolutely love playing music in front of an audience and want to do that for the rest of your life, do something else.
And when you DO pick that something else to do, be the best you can be at whatever that something is. Drive yourself until you can not possibly be better at it. It may take your entire life of trying to get there, and you may never get there, but always keep trying. Be THE best ditch digger or meat cutter or plumber or chef or car mechanic or landscaper or carpenter you can be. Never settle and be content with mediocrity.
Outside of my 40 hour job, I have a small computer repair business (small because I am scaling back in deference to age and available energy). It makes me feel like I matter when someone calls me and says "Dave referred me to you because he said you are really good at this and I need help." This is the same to me as someone calling Notes to say "I want to hire you because Sam said you are very good and your band would be perfect for our function."
And that is why I prefer to see an original band than a cover band.
I think what we're starting to talk about now is boredom threshold. Some people can do the same job quite happily all their life, but many others can't and once you cross the boredom event horizon, there's no way back. This is probably why most of the people I know, including musicians, hate their job.
They do say that variety is the spice of life ...
ROG.
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I DEMAND commitment! We rehearse when I say we rehearse and anything short of your own death is not a valid reason to miss one. Don't even THINK you are going to come to my rehearsal with your McDonald's bag and eat your lunch on my time. Change your guitar strings at home before you get to rehearsal. Music starts at noon, not 20 after. You punch a time clock at your job. You punch one here too. It's called commitment. And that's MISTER [Email]B@stard[/Email] to you.
Hey I worked for you!!!!
Seriously, I was a hired side man for 5 or 6 years of my career in music for radio & fair circuit performances by a certain act, and I treated it just like the job it was, and did all the things that you mentioned. The practices were paid also, it is called a biz and to make $$ in it you treat it as such.
If you are demanding something like this for your "once a year show", and are not paying, good luck. Just an IMHO...
The reality of this is that most of the time this stuff is just a given to every musician that does make a living playing, it's called being a pro. It IS hard to find committed folks for ANY project anymore, that is for sure....the old work ethic for ANY job, be it laying train track or serving food, is no more....
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Hey I worked for you!!!!
It would have been an honor!!!
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If you are demanding something like this for your "once a year show", and are not paying, good luck.
No, for that show I am one of the minor side players. Pretty much told to shut up and play and keep my opinions to myself.
Eddie we can't agree more on this.
Whether you are a musician, plumber, printer or whatever, whether you are in a cover band, jazz band or originals band, you have to treat it like a business.
If you show up late for rehearsal, show up unprepared for rehearsal, show up late for the gig, take too long of a break on the gig, pay more attention to the drugs or member of the opposite sex, or have any number of other lax work ethics, you cannot be in my band.
You have to learn and play your part to the best of your ability, you have to skip your breaks when the crowd is up and a break would be inappropriate, you have to have a fun loving attitude on stage even though you are serious about your music,
...and to put it in a nutshell...
Our band has a product and we are in direct competition with our friends in other bands. If we want to be able to work and charge the maximum going rate, we have to do whatever we can to provide a better service to the entertainment purchaser than our friends in the other bands. And when I say whatever it takes, I mean whatever it takes.
And that goes if you are a cover band, tribute band, original tunes band, jazz band, rap band, Mariachi band, or whatever.
And if you don't do that, someone else who does will get more gigs than you do.
If you want to make a living playing music, you have to be better than the next guy.
Of course, it doesn't hurt to be well-connected too, but most of us do not have that option.
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Bored you say?
I don't get bored with music. There are always new songs to learn, new instruments to learn, new places to play, new people to meet.
I started out playing drums but quickly moved to sax. Now I play sax, flute, wind synthesizer, keyboard synth, vocals (the hardest one to learn so far), bass, computer, I still play drums but on electronic drum controllers, and my newest instrument, lead guitar.
I make my own MIDI backing tracks for my duo.
I learned how to make user styles for BiaB out of curiosity and ended up starting the Norton Music business where I learned how to run a 'real' business, write HTML and publish my own web pages, and work the shopping cart (and it was mail-order before that).
I haven't got time to be bored. I turned of the cable TV and disconnected the antenna in the 1980s - didn't get a digital converter either. I've never seen even one episode of The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Taxi, Sopranos, MASH, Desperate Housewives, American Idol, Cheers and many other shows I hear about. The last football game I watched was in the 1970s.
I haven't got time for TV. Talk about being bored doing the same thing over and over again! I can't see how people watch the same football/baseball/basketball game or the same sitcom over and over again. To me that's boredom. I'm doing stuff, improving my skills, involving mind and body, and the time passes too quickly.
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.....take too long of a break on the gig.......
THIS was one of my biggest pet peeves, I don't know how many times I would hit the stage at 14min and STILL be sitting behind my drums for another 3 to 5 min while the rest of the band slowly made their way up one by one....not every band ,just one. And I could NEVER figure out how it was the best paying one!
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.....take too long of a break on the gig.......
THIS was one of my biggest pet peeves, I don't know how many times I would hit the stage at 14min and STILL be sitting behind my drums for another 3 to 5 min while the rest of the band slowly made their way up one by one....not every band ,just one. And I could NEVER figure out how it was the best paying one!
Add to this long pauses in-between tunes, a band member or two doodling on the strings or keys in-between tunes and my biggest peeve, extended play for each tune. I have been to events where a band will play only 3-5 tunes in an half hour span. So no matter how good the band I am usually up and walking after the third song of the set.
Later,
Just an aside for Danny. I did sound for a while for a band and the leader, the business guy, the guy who owned all the PA and the trailer, was, as is often the case, the weakest player in his own band. Total poser who thought that he could hide his lack of skills (he was the "rhythm" guitar player and could not solo at all) by changing guitar every song. And as he changed them every song, he would stop the band and tune. 2 songs per set would see him pick up his Rickie 12 string, so he had to tune 12 strings instead of 6. And for some strange reason, he tuned 1 to 6, so by the time he tuned the 6th string, the change in neck tension from tuning those thick bottom strings would see his top string out of tune and he started over. Reminds me of the Pete Barbuti bit where he was the 4th trumpet player and couldn't play at all but they couldn't fire him because he owned the station wagon with the luggage rack.
Pete Barbuti . . . had the pleasure of meeting him once in Aspen Colorado, very nice, and of course very funny guy. Of course his humor is directed at or either attributed to musicians and his musical experiences.
Later,
I've been in a few bands where the person with the weakest musical chops had the best public relations chops and therefore was worth his weight for his contributions in the business department.
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I've been in a few bands where the person with the weakest musical chops had the best public relations chops and therefore was worth his weight for his contributions in the business department.
Yup, been there a lot, & made the best $$ also....goes back to my "how they kept getting gig's" thought....
Back when our trio was playing different clubs every weekend in Nawlins I wish we could have found another band member "no matter their music chops", just as long as they could load in and out that heavy B3 and the equally as heavy Leslie!
I seriously thought of running an ad stating: Wanted musician to join seasoned trio. Any instrument, experience not requirred just as long as you can bench press 300 lbs and own a van with an easy lift tailgate.
Just saying . . .
I played in a couple of bands with B3 players. Being a sax player with a light load, I was always "volunteered" to be one of the B3 'pall bearers'. And back then we used those huge "voice of the theater" speaker enclosures for the PA.
Things are smaller and lighter now, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Our heaviest object is probably about 40 pounds or less. The B3 was over 400. But the B3 sounded fantastic. The new B3 simulators sound very good, but not quite the same as that B with a big Leslie speaker - but they sure are portable - which IMHO more than makes up for their slight shortcomings!
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It is at this time you really appreciate those 25 or so fans that show up every gig!
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Our heaviest object is probably about 40 pounds or less.
Have you noticed the mathematical relationship between your age and the weight of your gear? I have!
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Our heaviest object is probably about 40 pounds or less.
Have you noticed the mathematical relationship between your age and the weight of your gear? I have!
Yes . . . and also the size of the wheels on my equipment cart!
PS: I am thinking that if I am lucky enough to be doing this 5 - 10 more years I may look into a Rascal with a trailer hitch.
Later,
By the time you pay "people" to do the heavy lifting, you lose money on every gig.... hardest part for me is finding 8 people to carry me in like they did the Roman Emperors.... and yes, I need 8. Maybe 10 by now as fat as I am getting.... This is why I specified cremation in my will. I can't come up with 8 people who care enough about me that they'd want to be pall bearer....
And the mathematical relationship between my age and my weight.
Closest I can get here is width = height x 2.....
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Our heaviest object is probably about 40 pounds or less.
Have you noticed the mathematical relationship between your age and the weight of your gear? I have!
Most definitely, although I'm not sure of the exact equation or formula. And also as the band shrunk to a duo, and there were fewer arms to lift things, lighter gear got more attractive.
My old speaker system consisted of a sub-woofer cab with 2 - 12" speakers and it was built out of 1/2" wood plus two satellite mid/tweets. It sounded great but that 60 pound woofer became a pain in the back to lift - I do one-nighters. Leilani is strong and helps, but being the bigger person, I bear the heaviest loads.
My new speakers have 15" woofers and a mid/high horn in the same enclosure. Plastic enclosures and Neodymium magnets - 32 pounds each. Much better.
My rack with the mixer, couple of sound modules, sonic maximizer and FX unit weighs a little bit more than one of the speaker cabs. The power amp is in a separate rack case, and it has wheels attached, so I stack them and they wheel in.
Doing one-nighters means balancing the weight of each item vs. the number of trips back and forth to the van. I unload the van, put things on the carts and Leilani wheels them in. Then as I come in, the customers who don't see me unloading the van (the heavy work) sometimes think Leilani does all the work. We both have a good sense of humor, so I tell them that "Luggin' and totin' is women's work" in my best exaggerated hillbilly accent. Then Leilani will usually add that unloading the van is a lot more work than wheeling the stuff in.
I don't mind bringing the gear in but for some reason, it's heavier on the way out.
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Or you could exchange Leilani for a Russian weighlifter..... I was always leary about dating a woman who could bench press me.....
I love my Bose stick system of five years. I've used it in almost all kinds of music. Almost all - I also have my heads and cabs for certain situations: concert stages, too large outdoor shows, etc.
Nothing is too heavy nor awkward.
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Making it in music - Regular royalty checks with lots of zeros. LOL!
Making it in life - what rharv said.
Yeah? Well I've got that for sure.
Unfortunately the zeros come first in the number but......
WSS
Hey Steve, I bought one of your band CDs!!! That should have brought you a dime or two.... And I bought it many years ago, so had you deposited that 20 cents in a high interest bearing account.....
Those who don't know, Steve fronts an outstanding band with a great horn section!!