STRICTLY an opinion question

The making money part is rhetorical. Of course people need to make a living. The question as asked comes down to whether an artist wants to follow the formula and sell CDs full of music that all sounds the same or go his/her own way.

"Selling out" is just a term people assign based on their own value system. I mean, if it takes writing "formula" songs to get on the radio, and writing like that is selling out, so be it.

I just wonder if anybody else is of the same opinion I am that these singers anymore are interchangeable because they all sound the same and the songs are fairly generic.

I agree with Josie that after a bit almost any genre will start to sound the same or at least similar. And it is pretty easy to find this in the past as well. Think of all the songs in the 50's that used I/vi/IV/V!

There is always a lot of awesome talent out there who never get fame or fortune and occasionally one of them breaks through. And if the public likes a particular style, one of these artists can certain deliver it! I'm convinced that ALL well-known acts/artists are pretty much interchangeable!

<< It's kind of all sounding the same to me.>>

Me too, but it is the system. Radio is not meant to be listened to any more, it is the morning lullaby on the way to work, the accompaniment while working. It is not supposed to grab your attention, it justs occupies a small part of the brain to cuddle you and make you feel warm and safe. It is as inspiring as turning the heating on.

That's what musical "genres" are all about,classifying sound patterns by similarities.

Chords are the arguably the foundation of a song which like a house can be built in many different ways, with lots of variations and colors added by the musicians, performers and song writers.

Some "house" designs sell better than others so that's what the builders try to emulate.
When it comes to the great ones, the devil is in the details.
That's why out of so many renditions of the same song, one will usually become "the standard" (Sinatra's "My Way" comes to mind)

Here's where the internet and Indi publishing really shines as it offers us music built outside the box, and good or bad, gives us a choice over standard radio playlists.

We definitely have to thank PG Music for helping in this regard.

it may be worth noting that the words GENre and GENeric come from the same root

To a large extent the listening public wants what the listening public is used to getting. If radio stations exposed the public to a wider range of options it might be different but it's not going to happen.

It seems to me that people have been conditioned by a combination of circumstances; the media, their difficult working lives, the complexity of modern life, local traditions etc. to use music primarily as a stress reliever and they will want what's familiar, reassuring and undemanding in hard times. So you get this tendency of radio programmers to present a consistent mood in their playlists be it 'nostalgic', 'chill out' or 'feel good' to fit in with that.

From the musicians side of things if you're locked into a successful formula that's garnered a large audience you're not going to do much to change your approach unless you want to risk losing your fan base even if you might gain another.

From the record industry perspective its about commodification; homogenizing things to the point where any new talent has to fit the preconceived mould.

Only the audience can change it really by voting with their feet and their wallets. Admitting that you're bored by the repetition is a start. But then if you don't get to hear anything outside the norm you might just put up with what you have.

Regards

Alan

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To a large extent the listening public wants what the listening public is used to getting. If radio stations exposed the public to a wider range of options it might be different but it's not going to happen.

But Alan that is the way it used to be around here in the late 60’s early 70’s. FM was relatively new, had very few commercials and played every genre you could ask for such as country, jazz, rock, blues, classical, light classical, new age etc. Most of today’s radio stations around here are all the same with the same tapes being played in Rochester, Buffalo and Syracuse NY. The only differences are the local ads. You have your choice of contemporary country, the same oldies over and over again or rap. There are some independent local and college stations that are playing some alternatives but your best choice for something different is Internet radio.

I think the reason everyone sounds the same is two fold. One is the money issue already talked about. The other is that musicianship today is at such a high level that most bands and studio musicians can sound like anyone they want too.

Quick comment on Mario's post about radio (not country, sorry Eddie, but perhaps relevant):

I was just in LA listening to the jazz station from Long Beach (they play my CD) and their fund-raising drive said "We are one of only four jazz stations left in the country, so please give...". Sad.

FWIW, (Theodore) Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is crap. People like us listen for the 10%.

Some of my highest quality listening anymore comes from Shoutcast. For those not familiar, people like you and me can create "stations" and broadcast them on the internet. When you find one (and it takes a LOT of experimenting) that is broadcasting a mix you like, make it a favorite and you can always go back. Several years back I used to have about a dozen "programs" that were all on CD, including some generic DJ banter, all saved as MP3s, intertwined so it sounded like I was really there. I had 2 jazz shows, a couple of Beatles shows, a couple of Todd Rundgren, a couple of Police.... Each was a playlist, and I could queue the playlists so about 6 one hour shows could be queued up at a time. Pretty cool stuff, actually.

But to respond to Mario, those late 60s days when FM was just becoming the norm were awesome. We had a show here in Cleveland called Doc Nemo's Underground that came on at 11. He opened with Bob Seger's "Heavy Music" every night and it was 60 minutes of stuff you couldn't hear on the AM stations. Hendrix, Blues Project, BS&T.... Loved it.

Eddie, it does sound the same. That said, so has nearly any popular genre that has received radio airplay for the past 60+ years.

The problem I have to modern 'country' is that it's just warmed over, watered down party rock.

My question to you would be why you would ever put Pandora on that, when there is so much other GOOD stuff on Pandora?

-Scott

Scott,

I need to study music that I don't know well. Up until recently if my choice was country or nothing, silence would win out every time. I couldn't name a country artist outside of the old guard like Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, Dolly Parton, etc.... And a few that are more country rock. When I first heard the name Lady Antebellum, I thought it was a joke. I mean, what is Bellum and why are they against it?

All these guys that look like a thumb with a cowboy hat, all these girls with all the blond hair.... they all look and sound the same to me.

BUT....

It's the hottest genre out there right now, and if I am truly going to continue my pursuit of the bucket list item of having a song played on the radio and performed by someone real, it will likely be a country song.

So, call it research.

Eddie, Interesting bucket list item. But doesn't it kind of cheapen the whole point of the bucket list item if you are just serving up same old same old for thumb in a hat and beautiful blond with a growl in her voice?

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You have your choice of contemporary country, the same oldies over and over again or rap.

You say "or rap" with a tone that it's all crap like the other things you listed. Like most on this forum including me, we don't realize that for the last 20 years rap and hip hop is where it's been. I've forced myself to listen to that occasionally and it's very creative. I've listened to the DJ's and commentators and even watched a documentary on hip hop on the History Channel. It's beyond huge but very few of us on this forum know that. The sound is so foreign (I could use stronger words but I won't) to most of us here it doesn't even get mentioned except like you just did. Totally dismissive.

All we're doing when we talk like this is revealing what out of touch idiots we all are. Sorry, but it's true. This is what's been happening all these years, this is where all the missing creativity we're all talking about is now. Rap and hip hop followed by Euro techno, dubstep and progressive rock. And yes, they're listening to all the hidden, hip internet music sites few of us even know exists.

That stuff is amazing in it's production values, totally off the wall but very creative. Mostly crap to my ears but some of it is interesting and I've got to give it it's due. It's hard to realize sometimes but there's 40 year old's walking around now who grew up on rap and hip hop. To them it's the only good music out there.

I did a wedding reception a month ago and during a break we played some Beach Boys on the PA. A cute 20 year old friend of the bride came up to me with an IPad and asked if she could plug in some of her music. Never mind she looked about 15 to me but she's actually 20. I said sure and she started editing her song list. I leaned over to her and said with a grin, gotta delete all the bitches and ho's, right? She looked at me, nodded her head and started laughing. I could tell she was thinking how did this old dude pick up that? She's your basic, comes from a wealthy family in Newport Beach, white girl just so you know. To us gangsta rap is horrible and should be illegal but to the kids it's just a joke, it's not serious but they gotta be careful around the old folks...

Does that sound familiar to some of us?

Bob

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Eddie, Interesting bucket list item. But doesn't it kind of cheapen the whole point of the bucket list item if you are just serving up same old same old for thumb in a hat and beautiful blond with a growl in her voice?

To be absolutely honest, as my bucket gets closer and closer, I will write any kind of piece of crap I have to and sell out at any level I have to if that's what it takes to start a stream of checks with my name on them arriving in my mailbox. And the stream doesn't have to last very long. I'll call 3 monthly checks a stream.

Think about it this way. We have McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, Sonic, Rally's, Carl's, Carl's Junior... whatever it is where you live. They all sell essentially the same thing. Burgers and fries. All the same, yet they are always ALL busy. Apparently "same old" is not all that bad in fast food. By the same token, it is apparently not that bad in music too. I am not going to be phony and tell you about how I hold myself to higher standards and all that yada yada. I have a few music friends who go into that litany as they play for 12 people at little places doing it "their" way. And I supposed to play out, I would prefer to do it "my" way too, but I am talking about writing for others and selling songs to them, not performing myself. I don't have any kind of shot to get a song to the true heavyweights, but some up and coming Nashville artist is going to need material for their first CD, so why not one of mine? Or yours? I don't think the Matt Serletic machine is interested in spending time writing for newbie nobody singers that may never make it out of Nashville, but somebody has to, so why not a newbie nobody writer? And those newbie nobody singers need to sing what is popular or keep working at the convenience store.

I guess it all get put in the "Paying dues" folder.

damn right Eddie! man I truly hope you get that big one and that stream too!!

I'm not close enough to radio to know this, but don't most stations have their music piped in from the mothership these days? Prepackaged DJs and such?

The topic reminds me of an old Willie Nelson tune from around '74. "Sad Songs and Waltzes ain't Selling this Year."

My advice, for whatever that is worth, is to REMAIN TRUE TO YOURSELF in your songwriting and production efforts and keep at it.

Write.

Make Demos.

Submit same.

Rinse and Repeat as often as possible.

--Mac

That is an interesting perspective, Mac, and I agree to a point, but the "thine own self be true" method has me sitting here at 61 with the bucket list growing instead of shrinking and that hasn't worked yet. I think by the time the shame of selling out would hit me, I'd be dead and wouldn't know anyway....

anyone who says they wouldn't "sell out" just hasn't had an offer yet!

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Scott,

I need to study music that I don't know well. Up until recently if my choice was country or nothing, silence would win out every time. ... All these guys that look like a thumb with a cowboy hat, all these girls with all the blond hair.... they all look and sound the same to me.

BUT....

It's the hottest genre out there right now, and if I am truly going to continue my pursuit of the bucket list item of having a song played on the radio and performed by someone real, it will likely be a country song.

So, call it research.

I see nothing wrong with approaching music as a "business" and if your goal is to get a record on the radio, then country might be your best chance. All other genres are pretty much closed shops. Alternative and most rock is artist written, Pop and rap are artist/producer written, etc... Guess what, though -- country is going the same way. Insiders (writers and co-writers) are writing all their own tunes.

How did these folks that were once outsiders become insiders, you ask? They probably grew up together or met each other in nashville (or wherever) as they were struggling to get started or they were introduced by publisher/record labels to each other. So they formed this little circle that got bigger. That is why you see certain artists doing their "friend's" songs (the same names keep popping up). Your best shot is to find local artists at open mics, writer's night, songwriting groups and start writing with them now. Yea, still a hit or miss prospect -- but what other choice do you have?

*** Country music is lyric/story driven -- even with the onslaught of the "party/rock" anthems.
*** Country music is becoming more "urban" -- don't write about cowboy hats, boots, mud on your truck tire flaps or "daisy dukes" unless that is the life you are leading (or your co-writer is leading that life). The themes of love and loss, highs and lows and everyday life are still open for the taking.
*** It is not "who you know", but "who knows you and how do they know you".
*** There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of country writers. You had better be prepared to support others if you expect them to support you. It's a long hard slog.
*** Country music is still only about 11% of the total sales in the US: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20...Industry-Report -- Pop, R&B/Hip-hop, and Rock control over 20% of the sales each.

If you really want to do this, I can give you the name of a mentor in nashville that can guide you through your "education". He ain't free, but he is really cheap (considering what he does for you). He will also hook you up with co-writers when you are ready. If you go this route, be prepared to be shot down a lot and be ready to change your whole style of writing. You will probably have to take 2 or 3 trips to Nashville to meet enough folks so they know who you are.

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I see nothing wrong with approaching music as a "business"

If you are giging, teaching or doing anything that earns you money you must approach it as a business. That is how I have been running my wedding band and/or teaching for years. Now I did enjoy playing out and I do enjoy teaching but it was/is all business when doing it. The fun part comes with jam sessions, playing with BiaB or free internet collaborations; money making internet collaborations are business.

Just my approach.

I have found that there are many things more important in this life than mere fame and/or fortune.

Been around a few who had it but didn't seem all that happy about anything...

--Mac

All true, but I was more focused on giving Eddie my opinions on approaches to tackling this contemporary country/get on the radio thing. The comments on whether it is the right thing to do to be "happy" is another (important) philosophical discussion. Maybe it is the more important discussion, but dang, we are all different in what floats our boats.

Kevin has "hit the nail on the head".

To add to that... here are some things to consider...

There are dozens of publishers in Nashville who all employ staff writers. The "big" ones (Sony/Tree, Polygram, BMG to name a few) have 100-125 writers. The smaller ones may have 10-25. And, of course, everything in between. For argument sake, let's say there are 2000 staff writers in Nashville. They are ALL good writers. Most have been in Nashville for years learning and plying their craft. They write EVERY DAY. They may turn in 2-3 songs a week to their publisher (that's what they are paid for). The publisher decides what gets demoed. (Except for the really successful writers who have made enough money to demo everything they write). Those demos sound as good as anything you hear on the radio or on CDs. They pitch those songs for a few weeks and if no one picks up on them, they move on to next week's 4000 songs. There are, literally, hundreds of thousands of GREAT songs sitting on the shelves in Nashville that no one will ever hear.

There are, perhaps, 50 guys/gals in Nashville who make BIG bucks (we're talkiing millions). The ones getting 3 or 4 cuts a year. Sometimes more. The artists (producers) keep going back to them because they know how to write hits - and that's what everyone is looking for. There are, maybe, another 150-200 writers who actually "make a living" writing (a cut here and there). The other 1800 are still looking for that first cut. There are only so many "slots" per year. If there are 100 (viable) releases a year with 12 songs apiece, that's 1200 "slots". Some percentage of those are written by the artist themselves (Brad Paisley, Keith Urban types). Those 50 "big name writers" get their share and the number of slots goes down real fast.

It can take years to "develop relationships" needed, or to "get noticed". Tony Lane knocked around Nashville for 5-6 years (writing daily, playing at writer's nights several times a week) before "the big boys picked up on him" and started writing with him. Once he "hit" he got dozens of cuts (several #1's).

Nashville publishers don't have time to "deal with" outsiders. Nor do they need to. If you're good enough to "make it" in Nashville as a writer, you're probably already there. At any one time there are (at least) another 5000 people in Nashville "trying to find their way in". Most don't stay long. Some do. A few make it. But not many.

All that being said.... there is always hope. Tom Douglas "did the Nashville thing" and then went back home (Texas, I believe). At a "pitch a publisher" night at a local songwiter's organization, he manage to "get noticed", got a #1 with Collin Raye and went on to a very successful Nashville career.

Never give up.

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... For argument sake, let's say there are 2000 staff writers in Nashville. They are ALL good writers. Most have been in Nashville for years learning and plying their craft. They write EVERY DAY. They may turn in 2-3 songs a week to their publisher (that's what they are paid for). The publisher decides what gets demoed. ...

I read somewhere that this number has been slashed all the way down to ~300 to ~400 staff positions. Publishers are having hard time getting cuts with most of the writing being with the artists these days.

I'm not surprised by that... the "scenario" I described was actually 10 years ago. The scenario still applies - it's just a smaller pie...

Please understand my comments weren't against approaching music as a business.

There are decisions and choices to be made all up and down the line. I was trying to rationalize the thumb in hats and beautiful blonde comments with the idea of a bucket list item.

I think that TAXI kind of route is likely a must-do attempt to accomplish the 'hit' song requirement. Some type of representation and 'people' working for you, just a little bit, is likely necessary to break through.

Either that, or a very savvy social media capability. I've talked here about Tyler Ward - who now has international fame and fortune - which really started with him doing better Taylor Swift covers than Nashville was able to do with Taylor Swift herself. Tyler did them out of his basement studio here in CO. He put these up on YouTube, paid appropriate attention to licensing/royalties and what not, and now he has over a million YouTube subscribers, with over 300 million views on YouTube. Yes, 300 million views. I know Tyler pretty well from right before he started to take off on YouTube. When I would see him regularly, it was when he had perhaps 5,000 subscribers to his YouTube channel - pretty much local here in CO.

Tyler knows how to really connect with the on-line audience, globally, via social media. He has also done a great job pulling other people along in his rather rapid rise to this certain kind of fame. He's also really good at DIY music/video - again, his covers of pop songs are arguably better than what the big studios cranked out. He has been able to pretty much control his destiny - still not signed, but not for want of record companies pounding down his door. He's in control of his own gig. Record contracts are a bit irrelevant in his situation. So, social media is another way to fame, that is less dependent on the Nashville, NY or LA machine.

Or just plain dumb luck.

Imagine this scenario.

There's a kid named Clem. He can sing. I mean REALLY sing. Clem isn't on a label yet because he can't get a good listen from anybody who can get him there. Clem spends his days singing a capella as he walks along the streets of Nashville collecting aluminum cans to recycle so he can come up with a buck to buy a newspaper to take back to the dumpster he lives in to look at later, after he practices his guitar for a few hours, so he can try and find a job at a fast food joint or convenience store. Clem knows if he can just get enough money together to make a decent demo he has a shot at making it. Clem also knows he needs a quality song to record on that demo and becasue he is not yet inside the walls of the forbidden city he has no shot at having a music publisher refer him to a professional writing team to get that one good song.

I want to meet Clem. That's who I need. Clem.

I have NO desire, intention, aspiration.... to try and become a "songwriters stable member" for a label. I want to hear one song I wrote on TV or the radio one time. That can be on "Nashville's Next Big Star" when Clem makes his debut, on a televised local talent show, an ad for a local business...

This is a bucket list thing. To those not familiar with the concept, it means "if this happens once I can die happy". That's all I care about. If I got one royalty check for 12 cents from a song playing on the radio I would frame it and hang it on the wall with other certificates that show I have accomplished something in 61 years. My degrees, some old baseball awards, the one 45 single that I played a minor part on in 1970 (a minor part, but I played on it!).... Also on that bucket list is driving a car 200 mph for 4 laps. And to cook one meal for a professional chef and not send them to the emergency room with food poisoning or convulsive stomach pains.

Nobody with an ounce of brains would ever consider me a potential source for hit after hit, and people who get to the place where they hire and fire writers have a lot more than an ounce. Matt Serletic doesn't return my calls. Music isn't even what I actually do. I keep servers and networks running, but nobody is going to remember the guy who kept the network going past 3 weeks after he's gone.

I have no legacy, and everybody should leave something behind when they die other than a jar of ashes. I saw my father die suddenly at 74 with a bucket list he never even got to start on. My mother was on her second time through her list when she died 10 years later at 79. My health will not likely allow me to get past 66 or 67, so time is running out for me, as none of these things are as simple as driving somewhere or buying a plane ticket, like "see Niagara Falls".

I built an engine from the ground up. Check.
I won a drag race on a real track with that engine. Check.
Played on a record that made it to the radio. Check.
Served my country and lived through a war. Check.
I had 2 kids. Check.
Finished college with a degree. Check. Check. (Twice.)
I rescued some dogs from euthanasia. Check.
A couple more, um, "personal" ones that I can't list or risk being banned.....

I am not looking for a career change here. That is simply not on my program. So if it takes selling out and writing a piece of garbage for Clem to sing, where do I sign?

Everything you listed above are super-duper noble pursuits. Getting a song on the radio is too far out of your control to be a "noble pursuit". If you want to meet Clem -- move to Nashville.

Chuckle!

C'mon, Clem won't move to Cleveland?

What's even harder is I don't have any cards to play here. The closest I come is that I kinda sorta know the guy who plays keyboards for Sara Evans, though I have not seen or spoken to him since he moved years ago to play with Trisha Yearwood, and have the same distant friendship with Taylor Swift's guitar player, and I know his cousin much better than I know him. (Ran sound for his band for a while.) And still a 3rd 21 years old friendship with a girl who is down there now on CD #4 yet still doing songwriters night at the Bluebird Cafe. Not really a lot of leverage there.

If I just knew which dumpster Clem was in these days.... didn't he used to be right across from The White Horse Saloon?

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Imagine this scenario.

There's a kid named Clem. He can sing. I mean REALLY sing. Clem isn't on a label yet because he can't get a good listen from anybody who can get him there.

I'm not sure this is a real scenario any longer. As far as I can tell, A&R types are paying very close attention to YouTube 'unknowns'. The internet has leveled this playing field significantly. Anyone with a smartphone that can REALLY sing can get on YouTube to show their chops.

As have the 'you name it' talent shows on TV. Nearly every person on those shows as finalists these days are totally unknown. There's one lady on one of them that has been a backup singer for pop/R&B acts, but the rest of them are unheard of for the most part. They've even let some freaky looking folks through because they can sing and perform. There's a dude on one of those shows right now that looks like the sax player from the Muppet show band. A cartoon in real life, but the dude can sing and make like Joe Cocker in a way, though that didn't go very far for the last Joe Cocker wannabee from American Idol - whatzhizname? Taylor something or other - guy with the salt and pepper hair that didn't catch on with the public.

It sure seems like YouTube is where unknown talent gets discovered these days. That's what is getting people on radio, TV, etc. There are no barriers there - or the barriers are incredibly low. Lots of independent artists are getting their material picked up for hip TV shows via social media.

Look at how the folks from Canada that did the cover of "Somebody I Used To Know" made THAT song popular, because of their clever YouTube video that they re-enacted at least once on several of the different talk-shows. What's their name? Fall Off The Earth or something like that? Just checked - Walk Off The Earth. Then the REAL artist got popular here in the US.

This isn't made to rain on anyone's parade, but ye olde 'get discovered' thing is very much different now than even 10 years ago. Fishing in the country music pond for a song to get picked up by a REAL artist is likely shoulder to shoulder with professional fisherpersons, perhaps even more than other genres because of the perception that there's more artists using others' songs in that genre than elsewhere.

If we could figure out how to fan the viral flame, then we would be on to something.

-Scott

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Joe Cocker wannabee from American Idol - whatzhizname? Taylor something or other - guy with the salt and pepper hair that didn't catch on with the public.

Taylor Hicks, who to date has exactly one Ford commercial under his belt. Meanwhile, Daughtry, who was out with 5 playaz yet to go, is a star.

As I have stated before, the very reason I refuse to watch it anymore. It is apparently not about talent when the strongest contestants leave early so the babe with the best cleavage can stay, or people who feel some sort of convoluted pride if a stranger who resides somewhere in their state is in the running ring the phone off the hook voting.

The format of the whole thing stinks. Have a panel of (random number) 25 people who actually KNOW good from bad and let them decide, not a public who has no clue.

Underwood should NOT have won. underwood NOW is better than Bo Bice, but when they were the finalists, he blew her off the stage. He is also an ugly greasy haired dude, and oh, by the way, she is hot. Boom.

You guys who live in the major music towns know the drill. I was in LA for 6 months and did not meet ONE bartender, carhop, gas station worker or retail salesperson who was not a singer, player, dancer or actor. Not one. And every one of them was better than me, and that was when I was at the height of my talent years. I was in a little Italian restaurant and this girl singing was amazing. Then she put down the mic, picked up her tray and went back to work waiting tables. And I lost count of how many times that happened. Lots of talented people out there.

I went to audition for a 4 piece loung act playing sax. I was number 93! For a 4 piece lounge act, THAT many people showed up. One of the other guys was Lon Price, who toured with Al Jarreau. When a guy of that caliber is auditioning for a 4 piece lounge act....

Meanwhile, me and Clem have something we want to say and no choir to sing it to!!!

Just got home and checked my machine. No call from Clem. Hope he's okay. And that they didn't empty his dumpster....

Eddie,

Which way are you looking for to win the big song? It seems these posts are contradictory at best.

You want to win with a pop country song, but yet the current and even past system is unfair favoring looks over other stuff.

What is the compelling reason for Clem to pay any attention to you versus doing a cover on YouTube and making it popular? How do you find Clem?

I suggest finding the unsigned YouTube country pop-tarts or thumb in hats and sending them your copyrighted material. See if you can get just one of them to sing for you.

You won't be getting a call from Clem on your machine. You'll get a text or an e-mail.

Don't miss out on your local songwriters circles either. Maybe you'll find Clem there. But you are going to have to win the social media viral contest, IMO, if you don't want to go traditional record company way - who are sponsoring the tv talent shows to a great extent. Easy money for them.

BTW - if I recall correctly when Carrie Underwood won, there were plenty of other cl*****e contestants. Her face melted the hearts, not her body.

Daughtry had a better story than Taylor Hicks and a more marketable sound and stage presence. Which one is gonna get the backing of the record company? A guy who can wrangle a guitar with machismo with a modern sounding voice, or a guy blowin' on a harp and channeling Joe Cocker from 40 years in the past?

Only a couple of the American Idol winners have truly had staying power. That's what pop music is all about, isn't it? The next Beatles are not going to be discovered on American Idol/The Voice/X Factor. But YouTube - that's where it will be. My guess.

-Scott

Okay Scott,

You win the "Stump The Old Fat Guy" contest!

What is "cl*****e" ? Maybe you guys in Colorado have a term I'm not familiar with.

thanks to Kevin, Floyd, Scott and the rest of you for a really interesting conversation! the chances of "making it" in the music business indeed seem pretty slim but it sure helps to have an accurate understanding of the challenges as a starting point! the point about how many good songs are written and shelved is eye-opening to say the least.

one of my favorite singer/songwriters is John Prine. his story is so cool. playing his songs in Chicago bars and getting discovered by a star. and then spending a lifetime doing his music at a level of stardom less than he had hoped for but a good career to say the least. but I have played around Chicago in 2012. and I have met some damn good singer/songwriters (arguably some better than Prine). but few (none?) of them will be discovered and get their big break like Prine did. and most of them seem to think if they keep doing it like it was done in the past they will get their chance.

the ideas discussed here about social media are great but that window may also be closing as millions of people have figured it out and are using it to great effect! hard to go viral when there are thousands of others already viraling! generally, by the time your friends hear about something it is already too crowded to get in on it!

my thought is the more things change the more they stay the same. just like your songs, you need a hook. you need something different. a different sound. a different look. a different story. The Beatles could have been just another doowop 60s band but they did something new. rap and hip hop music didn't even exist when I was a kid. when music videos first came out I'm sure there were bands who used that to achieve their stardom. so what's your hook?

@bob I was avoiding a potential "warning sign" word. There are some a e v and g letters in there.

Quote:

The Beatles could have been just another doowop 60s band but they did something new.

They did something new MUCH later. When they were first signed, they were playing Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry songs.

I still TOTALLY admire every note of what they did (Sgt Pepper? C'mon now! Maybe the best album ever in my ears.) and they were the first concert I ever went to. Yet for all of what they did at a performance level, for me it was their writing that set them apart. Total genius.

Just because, 10 albums I will always own. A couple of cliches in here but still on my list.

Beatles - Sgt Pepper and Rubber Soul
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall
Beach Boys - Pet Sounds
Sting - Bring on the Night
Zappa - Joe's Garage and Overnight Sensation
Todd Rundgren - Back To The Bars
Meatloaf - Bat Out Of Hell

Of course I HAVE everything The Beatles, Sting/The Police, Todd Rundgren/Utopia, Tower of Power, Average White Band and Earth Wind & Fire ever recorded, and several others like Spyro Gyra, Lee Ritenaur... but that 10 is the list of CDs I will always own.

But back to topic, I am sure there is a "Clem" (or a "Clementine") somewhere in the area who is "that" good and needs some material. I just need to find him or her. I know a lot of singers. Churches everywhere are full of good singers, and if they sing well in church choir with all those harmonies, they get a look. (I know... recruiting in CHURCH???) Finding one with the same goals that wants to bother is the thing. Most of them just want to sing in their cover band and make their $100 a gig and have no desire to try and get commercial. The upside is that it's not like I am betting my house that I can get a song on the radio. If it happens, I'll check it off. If not, it won;t be because I didn't try.

The material has to match the artist.
She won't be interested in singing something for the rest of her life if she doesn't 'love' singing it to begin with.
Gotta catch the right artist at the right time with right song.
Crux of the bisquit.
That's the luck part.

Beatles; how many songs did they do that they didn't write? (Hint: They liked what they did). That's a large part of the formula.

and Yes, churches do indeed hold a ton of talent, excellent resource when seeking artists

/my Zappa choice would have been different, a couple others I'd much prefer over Joe's Garage

// topic said it was *opinion*

All of you that didn't watch The Voice tonight missed a great performance of Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On?" by Nicholas David - the guy who looks like the Muppet Show band sax player.

Stellar.

Cleavage?

You're using *****'s to spell cleavage? ... Jimminy Freakin' Christmas!

P.S. It onlt takes one * to avoid a "warning sign word".

@Bob - I was at work.