Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ?

the "regulars" ARE all older, but that doesn't mean there aren't young users.

I'll venture several guesses why they aren't here:

1) this forum is moderated and fairly civilized. In my forum-hanging days, it was my experience that young people gravitate toward totally uncontrolled forums where they can say and do whatever they want. This forum would not allow that.

2) It doesn't take long to figure out that the "regulars" are older. What kid wants to hang with gramps? Kids want to be where their peers are, not their parents and grandparents' peers.

3) BIAB assumes that the user has some knowledge of music theory. A generation of latch key kids raised by single parents who never got music lessons has gravitated toward software like FStudio, where the rules of music never come into play, as long as they can drag loops

4) BIAB stands alone as a music software product that caters to older styes of music that don't appeal to MOST kids (though there are exceptions)

standard disclaimer:
the opinions expressed here about stereotypes of young people are reflective of the OP point of view. PGMusic and its employees neither endorse nor support the opinions set forth in this post

I still recall Steve Jobs marketing strategy of getting Apple computers into the schools, even at a loss. That gave Apple a huge, younger customer base but the long term affect was skewed by the lack of software for the platform. That may no longer be the case.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "marketing".
In my opinion (and a few others judging by the wishlists)if PGM wants to attract a younger audience it needs:

1. The much requested modernization of the user interface
2. A possible streamlining or simplification of the feature set.
The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) acronym would probably be best with today's need for instant gratification
3. More modern styles and loops focusing on what the younger generations are into.
4. A youth oriented name change which could apply to this new, modified "lighter" version of BIA/RB. I kinda like "RealBand Studio" myself:)

This "lighter" companion version could be used as an introduction to the full blown program we all know and love.

Except for the new UI and the addition of some more modern styles, all the pieces are probably already there under the hood.
It may even be possible to ship the full blown program under the new name which could have features unlocked as it was upgraded or customized by the users.

Not knowing the economic situation of PGM and what they want as far as market share, it may not be cost effective at this time but may become a necessity if they want to bring the kids in.

Carkins

I've noticed that maybe one in six of the younger set love to read the printed word.

There may be a lot of 'em texting about such things.

r u bb?

bb?

u no app band

gud 4 u?

'k roflol

--Mac

ROFLMAO.

dude, u r wth it!

(That was very funny <<< old guy talk).

Wonder if there is any correlation between fewer younger users, in general, involved in music and music production and the de-emphasis of music in our schools. I think so. I look at my nieces and nephews, they never had the exposue nor opportunity to be involved in music the way that I did. For them, it was all about sports. Music was something to do when "hangin".

Young people don't don't like insanely long titles in forum threads. Have shorter, more concise thread titles and more young'ins will appear.

If you want to see the flip side of this forum demographics, go to www.kvraudio.com forum.

I think there are many reasons, have voiced them here, only to be lambasted as to why things are fine as they are. The following is the short list of my perceptions - whether well-founded or not:

1. PG is likely still just known at the BIAB company, which for most persons in the younger set, has little relevance to loop-based music creation/production. It's the domain of cover song, 1-man-band musicians.

2. The advertisements in print magazines still fall very far behind professional graphic design. People always have, and always will judge a book by it's cover.

Contrast:
http://www.pgmusic.com/index.html
http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html
http://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software
http://www.reaper.fm/
http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/
http://ntrack.com/

Nearly all have a video demonstrating main features. Some mix new with existing features. Steinberg's site looks similar from a graphic design standpoint, but most of the others look 'younger'. Hard to put specifics on what I mean here, but the graphic design looks more current. The main image on PG's BIAB site: http://www.pgmusic.com/css/gfx/pgbanner2013.jpg simply looks like it came from a clip-art package - plain and simple.

The 'chart' font shown on BIAB features, is going to look strange to those that have never seen a chart before. That's a whole lot of people buying and using music software these days. Some are calling themselves 'producers' more than they are calling themselves musicians. Some are both. Most are creating music from a different mindset than learning how to best generate "Moon River", with which GM sound source to get the most realistic backing tracks.

3. The graphic design of the user interface seems nearly unchanged from the 1996 version that I started on and perhaps going back to before then. There was an update where there was given a choice of instrument icons for the track 'markers', which is available on GarageBand, but not most other DAW software. Most other more popular DAW software looks more current from a color choice, button design, graphic design, etc. Should this matter? - no - but the judging of the book by it's cover behavior is still in play.

4. PG's descriptions of it's products are somewhat behind the times. This is the descriptive text for PowerTracks Pro Audio: "PowerTracks Pro Audio is a full-featured, multi-track music sequencing and digital audio recording program. PowerTracks Pro Audio includes powerful and unique features such as: The Audio Chord Wizard, which automatically and accurately figures out the chords from MP3/WMA/WAV audio files, the TC Helicon Vocal Harmonizer to add harmonies or pitch correct your audio tracks, and RealDrums which allow you to instantly generate audio drum tracks that are real recordings of drummers - not single drum hit samples but full recordings lasting 1 to 8 bars."

Note-the words "Digital Audio Workstation" or even DAW, do not appear. It's still referring to 'sequencing'. DAW has been the more known term for at least 10 years. 'Sequencers' go back to Dr. T's era.

For BIAB, the main page does not describe the main thing that it does, but is a running list of updates. For existing users, great - for potentially new customers - very confusing. http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm

What is the main thing of BIAB, it's core purpose? If you hit the main BIAB page, you have to dig to find what it does. The front page is the 'new features' but doesn't address the one main thing that BIAB/RB do: Accompaniment Generation, either via Real Band tracks or MIDI. That's it's main 'cool thing' that separates it from anything else on the market. The front page for that product should make that loud and clear. Advertisements should make it loud and clear - and simple.

In actuality, when hitting PGmusic.com, it should be something like this page, with a little bit of interactivity, and less text but more graphics to demonstrate how it actually works: http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.features.htm That page tells what it is but way too wordy. No video demonstrating function as the main feature of the page. Big mistake. Too much reading, not enough 'seeing'.

I think Mountainside's comments probably have some effect on it as well. Exposure to traditional music appreciation and understanding is waning. jazzmammal hit on this from a different angle as well

Bottom line as to jazzmammal's comments - the generative aspect of music these days is not about entering in a chord sequence and picking a style. That's a really cool thing for traditional songwriting, but for less traditional music, it's not really there. The production of the sound is as much of the process as the layout of the chords. Experimentation outside of the box, not in the box, is what people say they are looking for - though there are formulaic elements in these newer styles as well.

-Scott btw, in my 40's closer to 50 than 40.

Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...

Just sayin'

--Mac

Keyboard; you owe me a new one for that
this one is soaked

Probably the biggest deterrent to new users of ANY age is the lack of a SYSTEMATIC FREE video tutorial that covers BIAB and how to use it. You get video tutorials included in the “Everything Pak”, but they’re woefully inadequate.

You can fork over $39.00 for “BIAB for Bozo’s, Vol 1 & 2”, in order to get started, but while Vol 1 is a good starter, Vol 2 spends 30 minutes on manually entering notation. WTF?

If there were a 10 hour tutorial for BIAB, then I wouldn’t use even one minute of it on notation and how to enter it manually!

JMHO, the video tutorials are created from a developers POV. Peter should hire someone to create videos from a users POV.

It’s one thing to create a great program like BIAB. It’s another thing to throw new or inexperienced users to the wolves when it comes to figuring out how to use it.

Why aren’t there many young users? (Many options, … here’s mine). There’s not a half way decent video tutorial for the program, especially for new users.

(P.S. Pat, I know you’re THE BIAB cheerleader, (Peter should have you on salary, if he doesn't already), but there are legitimate complaints that people have about the program).

Pat,

You made a better point on another thread when you mentioned “I don’t how”.

Let’s see how to fix this! …

Maybe some half way decent SYSTEMATIC tutorials!

I run into BIAB in other music forums I frequent and have to admit it is beginning to get much better press due to word of mouth then a few years back. Lots of folks saying good things, and these are coming from a different cliental/demographic.

But let me share one which I thought was very interesting as it seemed to hit on something. Now don't go off on this

. I present it as I feel it was well written and presented its point in a very honest, respectful and coherent manner. I know PGMusic has not asked for this opinion, but they have also not indicated that they do not want it either. And it is relavent to this thread.

There will be no guessing on who wrote it.

"...its introduction of RealTracks was a massive leap forward. It's got many unique, clever features and deserves to be taken seriously. There's no other composition aid that can hold a candle to it.

But it's its own worst enemy. To be terribly frank, as a program it's a ginormous Christmas tree of aged core code with many new baubles added each year. The user interface is very old fashioned and reminds me of something designed by the tent crew of a circus in terms of buttons and colours. It's not intuitive and is a mass of menus. So it looks amateurish which totally belies its ability to produce very professional results. A total rewrite is way overdue. The musical bias is way out of touch with today, and leans heavily on old jazz and country, with some of the nods in the direction of music of the last thirty years embarassing. Its loyal user base is also aging and the proprietors seem oddly content with that. If it was brought up to date in terms of interface and styles it would be an absolutely killer tool that no one would want to be without, and would be first in a field of one with all the success that entails. "

I also notice BIAB being mentioned in forums and almost every time it goes something like "what an amazing program but the interface is terribly outdated". My personal feeling is similar. The "tent crew of a circus" comment cracked me up but unfortunately rings true. And I agree with the comment about the musical bias being out of touch. Elderly jazz players is probably not gonna be a huge market going forward. (Absolutely no offense intended toward jazz players of any age!!)

As I have mentioned on another post, the tutorials appear to be last updated in 2006, about 12 versions ago. New videos, of the current or most recent version, included for free along with my $469 purchase would be a lot more appropriate.

But then again...I find myself asking why exactly we should care about all of this? Once you go through the BIAB learning curve you are able to create some pretty amazing music. The output is extraordinary even though the tool is not in tune with the latest software standards. I understand why PG should be concerned about all of this because not keeping up with the times is usually not a good thing for long-term survival. But why do we care as users? Wouldn't making BIAB easier to use make our lives harder as more and more people started using it to compete with us?

Scott, I just discovered something almost amazing. Biab has a new competitor. Check this out from Cubase 7:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html

It's the Chord Track and Chord Track Editor. I have to leave for dinner but I just gave a quick listen to this video and it's definitely encroaching on Biab territory especially the chord follow feature that takes the chord from your live playing on your controller. It doesn't look like it's like an arranger keyboard or anything but it's used to modify your existing project. They also talk about how the program changes the audio tracks as well as midi tracks AND, AND picking a style. Considering they don't have our Real Tracks, that sounds like you can record your own audio part like a guitar or whatever and if you use the Chord Edit function it actually changes what you recorded. That sounds very interesting. Got to go but I'm checking this out further.

A quick note if anybody wants to get a feel for where the music biz is now just give a listen to all the background music with the different DAW's. No jazz, classic rock, country etc here.

Bob

I think we (and PG) should definitely care about it especially in this fast paced technological world we live in.

An easier interface saves us time and frustration.
New forum members expand our musical production knowledge base regardless of the style as they share their tips and workflow.

Wouldn't it be great if the only need for this forum was to share tips and the new songs we've produced with BIAB/RB?
No more (or at least fewer)frustrated rants by newbies on how to turn on ASIO or not use it at all.
We've all been there.

I love PG's products and want to see them get the recognition they deserve which in turn will hopefully make new songs we produce with them accepted by more professional venues.

Sort of reminds me of what happened to the British during our Revolutionary War and War of 1812 as they stubbornly marched forward in long traditional battle lines, old school, while the young,upstart Colonials used quick, new, hit and run techniques to decimate their ranks.
No offense meant to our cousins across the pond by the way.

In fact did you know that there was a British version of Johnny Horton's "Battle of New Orleans".
Talk about CYA.!
You can find it on youtube.

Carkins

Quote:

Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...

Just sayin'

--Mac

PG Music is going to need younger customers sooner or later. I'm glad you didn't refer to me as 'trash' that way when I bought PTPA and joined the forums in the 90's.

-Scott

Quote:

Scott, I just discovered something almost amazing. Biab has a new competitor. Check this out from Cubase 7:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html

It's the Chord Track and Chord Track Editor. I have to leave for dinner but I just gave a quick listen to this video and it's definitely encroaching on Biab territory especially the chord follow feature that takes the chord from your live playing on your controller. It doesn't look like it's like an arranger keyboard or anything but it's used to modify your existing project. They also talk about how the program changes the audio tracks as well as midi tracks AND, AND picking a style. Considering they don't have our Real Tracks, that sounds like you can record your own audio part like a guitar or whatever and if you use the Chord Edit function it actually changes what you recorded. That sounds very interesting. Got to go but I'm checking this out further.

A quick note if anybody wants to get a feel for where the music biz is now just give a listen to all the background music with the different DAW's. No jazz, classic rock, country etc here.

Bob

Bob, it still looks way behind PG capabilities - but that won't stop the new customers to go with Steinberg. Steinberg will get way more press on this matter due to their sheer magnitude.

This all reminds me of what I saw happen to GM during my 15 years there. I had to leave when I believe the company was making the best products it ever made.

I did lots of work for GM at customer clinics in LA-LA-land in the late 90's and early 2000's. In my time out there I saw the REAL customer base; not the protected Detroit area 'buy American' customer base. I saw more used Honda Civics and Accords and BMW 3-series than I could shake a stick at. I saw all the kids buying used Civics, that in their later years would be Accords and Bimmers. One thing their future purchases wouldn't be was GM vehicles.

I hope that PG can turn that corner to attract younger customers so that questions like Joe's leading question for this thread, no longer seem to be obvious to even a newcomer like him.

As PG's unique value proposition, that of autogeneration of backing tracks, perhaps becomes more of a commodity, then their future state becomes more fuzzy, IMO.

I hope that I am wrong in this assessment, BTW.

-Scott

Quote:

Scott... do you currently use any PGMusic products?

No, I do not. I've made investments in other programs that will not function properly with PG products (specifically Jamstix and all of the 'packs' ) that keep me using a different DAW that I migrated to when ASIO did not work correctly for playthrough of VSTi. My understanding is that issue is largely gone these days, but I can't justify what amounts to throwing away my $150+ investment in Jamstix to give BIAB/RB a whirl and see what works and what doesn't.

I was a PTPA user for about 8 years and purchased 2 or 3 updates over that time frame - total investment in PTPA was under $100 (I can't remember what I paid for the original - I think it was $29, and then $19 for each update - if I remember correctly).

I have a special place in my heart for PG Music because it was my introduction to computer based recording/composition. I got lots of help from Mac and rharv and russell de mussel through the forums on getting started and answering my questions.

I have to say that once I experienced real-time play through of VSTi using CMuzys, which came for free on the cover CD of computer music magazine. I begged for awhile on the wishlist for this capability with PTPA and it was nothing doing. I migrated to a different DAW which has features which really click with the experimenter/engineer in me and I haven't come back - but some day - perhaps.

-Scott

Quote:

different DAW which has features which really click with the experimenter/engineer in me

...Scott, just curious - are you referring to CMuzys ? what particular features in it really click with the experimenter/engineer in you ? (they just might click with the same thing inside me : )

No, not Cmuzys. Cmuzys let me try playthrough of VSTi, when I was at the time limited to soundfonts in my SB Live card.

I received a NFR copy of Tracktion, and I've been hooked on it ever since. It's currently abandonware - sold, but not updated, by Mackie. Supposedly NAMM 2013 might involve an announcement of a change to that situation.

Tracktion bridges the land between more traditional DAW software and what they call a 'modular host'. You can wire up just about any signal flow that you can imagine with it, which can be incredibly fun as a hobbyist recordist. It drives some folks crazy because it doesn't have a 'mixer' view - they can't get their head around the idea that there isn't a fake mixer in the software.

I miss the notation aspects of PG products. I never bought any of the generative products, so I didn't get hooked on those.

-Scott

Quote:

Then I'm curious to know why you hang out in the PGMusic forum.

You don't answer questions about PGMusic's products.
Most of what you have to say is either derogatory about PGMusic products, or openly evangelical about their competitor's products. That seems more than a little inappropriate to me.

Pat, I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

I've used PG products probably well before you ever did - at least if forum participation under current usernames is applicable. My start time is about 1996, if my memory serves me correctly. I think there might be a 'join' date in the forumite database, but I'm not sure.

Read back through the lion's share of my posts and you will see that I rarely pan PG products, and often do the opposite, when it's a product specific question. In fact, just scroll up in THIS thread and you'll see that I talk about how the new Cubase chord auto-accompaniment generator looks way behind the capability of PG's products, for a simple case and point.

This particular thread is asking why there aren't more young folks around this forum. It's an astute observation by a relative newbie to the forum who I've recently found out is my age. There ARE reasons for it. Rather than dance around the issue, I laid out what my perceptions were. Of course, I believe that my perceptions have merit - as we all do. There are some reasons - what do you think they are?

As to 'why I choose to hang out here?' It's down to several things:

1. I consider a few of the long-time forum members here to be my mentors to home recording and I continue to learn from them. Goes back in the day to when everyone was recommending Radio Shack Optimus/Minimus speakers for monitoring. Y'all know who you are when and if you read this one!

1a. I try to provide the same type of tech support and advice that I received to those that are learning - this forum is a fairly graceful place to do that relative to other forums.

2. I consider some of the other more recent forum members as soul-mates as it pertains to pining for emulation of old-school electromechanical keyboards

3. I have a soft-spot for PG products because I cut my computer based recording teeth on Power Tracks Pro Audio, and I'd love to see it or RealBand contain the features that I've gotten hooked on with other products. I believe that some of what PG has added since 1996 is due to enough forumites asking often enough for features that exist elsewhere and not yet in PG Products. If you could rewind this forum 10 years back, you would see discussion after discussion about soundfonts and soundblaster cards. DX/DXi was the brand new thing and what folks were starting to wrap their heads around for 'soft synths' and so forth. You can credit folks like me who pounded and pounded for VST/VSTi direct integration as a feature for probably some of the reason it's a feature today. For many years, you couldn't use VST effects directly, you had to 'wrap' them and hope that worked. Not taking all the credit, but if there were never an outsider opinion expressed as to what was in Beulah land, y'all would still be having to use soundfonts and prior to that Sound Canvas modules, etc. Sample playback would be it. DX effects and PG's internal effects would be your only source. Yes we made music with those alone, but we make different music now and the horizons have expanded exponentially.

I would challenge you to look at my years, scratch that, decade+ of posts and what I tend to try to help with on these forums - when I give an experience-based opinion; and I believe you will find that nearly always, my comments are product-neutral, and try to stick to the underlying technical question at hand - of which USUALLY the product choice plays very little part. The only times I may wade in to what you consider derogatory comments are when someone is asking a very specific question that in fact IS product specific as to how to get the task completed and there is a direct shortcoming of PG products, or other products for that matter. Otherwise I steer clear of negative comments about PG products.

The DAW that I do use does not have an on-screen fake mixer. It's a shortcoming for what seems like most potential customers. It was never so for me, but I think it's probably one of the reasons that kept that DAW from becoming the de facto standard. It came with a mastering plugin that alone was worth the price - all by itself; at least the last two major version releases. That plugin was the Acuma Final Mix plugin, something that folks paid many hundreds of dollars for on the Mackie D8B digital mixers. Same code. It was like a mastering plugin with a full-on DAW thrown in for free!

So, back to the opening question of the thread - that is what is important here. I gave my opinions from a somewhat outsider view as to why there aren't younger forum members. I was in my late 20's when I started using PG products and asking on the forum, when I had a dial-up modem for access to the forum. I was pretty alone on the forum at that time from an age standpoint. I can think of a few others, but I think for the most part they left. I can answer the thread's question from a person that was that age when starting to use the forum and PG products.

What is your answer to the Joe V.'s question?

-Scott

Actually - I've found Scott's comments very helpful and useful (thanks for that Scott) - and also like the music he posted very much. Sounds like you guys are arch-enemies (like Batman and the Joker, for example) regarding opinions on the BB/RB UI. I happen to think you are both right on the topic - the current UI is very logical (for the most part), and can get most jobs done fairly efficiently, but the 'old style' packaging does make the product 'look and feel' dated - even though it's the most sophisticated, useful, amazing music composition product on the market (that going well into the second decade). And I also agree that without some major modifications to modernize the 'look and feel', that other products with pockets far deeper than PG's (e.g. Apple, Steinberg, etc.) are finally focused on the music accompaniment aspects of their products, and can and will catch up and surpass - especially in terms of catering to the type of music that's in vogue today, rather than 'jazz'. Ironic part is - I would think it's much easier for PG to incorporate additional features and styles for the current 'music in vogue' today than it is for the competitors to do the same regarding jazz and pop styles. It's unlikely that the product teams in these big companies (just my impression) are going to be equally focused on underlying music theory the way PG and his team were. In fact, it is the expertise, focus, and staying true to the underlying music theory as the tool (BB/PG) was developed that maybe left less energy and resources for the UI - from a ration perspective, that is.

I grew up when those vintage synth sounds came out, and to this date, I haven't heard anything as radically new (just further refinement and morphing of the initial technologies). Now - your taste may or may not be the same as Scott's, but I really enjoyed hearing a composition that Scott posted that went outside the typical jazz/pop/traditional music application of RB/BB. And I could see Scott's point that RB/BB doesn't have enough built-in support and styles for more modern music - e.g. to enable newcomers with less music background to more easily manipulate music loops and whatever else makes that easier in other DAWS (I have to go back and look at the details Scott provided).

Lastly Pat - and you are the most similar personality I've met to mine in a forum - Scott fairly reminded you that while you defended the BB/RB interface as being 'just fine, thank-you', you never really answered the initial post question, which was "Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums?"

(NOTE: -the following comment is meant to be funny, if you find it offensive, I apologize in advance)

Perhaps your another one of the snooty jazz types that needs to 'keep out the rabble'

Quote:

(NOTE: -the following comment is meant to be funny, if you find it offensive, I apologize in advance)

Perhaps your another one of the snooty jazz types that needs to 'keep out the rabble'

to answer your questions, I'm not offended by your or Scott's replies. Scott gave good reasons why somebody who isn't a user of PGMusic products would hang out on their forum. I've always wondered about that.

Regarding being a jazz type of any variety, snooty or otherwise: Sadly, I'm not smart enough to play jazz, I just don't understand it.

Regarding my response to the question: 4th down from the top. Whereas most people answered the question "Why don't more young people use PGMusic products" I interpreted your question differently and answered it as though you asked "why don't the younger users of PGMusic products have a presence on the forum" which is a totally different question.

I like the fact that PG music does not focus on "younger" types of music. If I want hip hop or electronica there are plenty of softwares available for that. I wish PG would focus more on acoustic music. There is no other company doing that. Perhaps even adding "Classical" RealTracks.

It is a tragic time for the written word when one writer is forced by others to include an emoticon when attempting to tell a joke.

Of course, it wouldn't be necessary if those reading would first yield the benefit of the doubt in favor of the writer.

Just sayin'

--Mac

I predict this will all go badly, although I hope I am wrong. (no emoticon needed)

Nah, I don't think so we're all friends here. Speaking for myself I completely understand what's being said and have no problem at all with anything.

To answer one point that was brought up, the reason most of us will criticize these products is because we're big fans of PG and want the company to succeed going forward. However, having been in sales and marketing most of my regular working career I can say you don't have to be all things to all people to succeed. Even though our type of music along with the theory and education part of it is a shrinking market and it looks like it's getting smaller by the hour it's still a pretty large niche when measured by absolute numbers of people worldwide.

I've always thought that our classic jazz, rock, country, blues and regional traditional styles will finally wind up as part of the classical music arena and will continue to be taught in universities for a very long time as in centuries. That market will settle into a small but steady percentage of the population just like true classical music is now. If that group represents say 10 million people and PG is capturing their fair share of that, that is still a pretty big customer base and as a small company they can stay doing what they're doing and be happy as clams regardless of how we think they can improve things.

I really think they're missing the boat though by not simply revamping the look of the logos and website like Scott said and not producing some true pro quality promo videos. Example, why isn't the new 2013 video in HD? All the tutorial vids while certainly helpful are truly amateurish looking compared to what the others are doing. If PG can bring in pros like Brent Mason or Jeff Lorber for the Real Tracks, why can't they bring in a real producer for the videos?

Bob

emoticon

emoticon

two emoticon

row of emoticons.

There.

I do hope that clears things up.

--Mac

There ya go.

I'm having a slow morning after being buried yesterday and just finished reading a Dubstep thread over on the Keyboard Corner forum. Absolutely hilarious. Some guys are waxing poetic about all the different styles, how people can't tell one type from another, lots of video examples, naming all kinds of artists none of us have ever heard of. As to why the kids like it so much one guy said this:

4) It bums old people out. One more reason kids like it.

Love it.

Bob

If you think that bumming the old guy out is desirable to 'em, try my delicious little method.

I will act so insanely interested in their music that it bums THEM out.

This method works even better if there is a keyboard, guitar or some instrument handy and you start playing along with their iPad as well.

Try to solo all over the thing and remember to act like its the greatest set of changes since Giant Steps.

--Mac

Giant Steps?

Now that shook my memory bank!

Thanks for the wake up,

I see the 50-59's are increasing!!!

Mac, we "old toppies" over here are also showing the young ones over here our versatility as well, even just the fact that we make the effort to actually spend the time, doing the research, pursuing until we beat the tool and the turn out recordings they thought should only be possibly in BIG studios.

Hey you kids! GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!!

Quote:

Probably the biggest deterrent to new users of ANY age is the lack of a SYSTEMATIC FREE video tutorial that covers BIAB and how to use it. You get video tutorials included in the “Everything Pak”, but they’re woefully inadequate.

Bob - have you gotten past the learning curve and can pretty much do anything you want with BB/RB - or are there still areas you don't use because of either confusion, buginess, or integration problems with other products ?

And...will you ever forgive PG for making you spend so much time learning to integrate and troubleshoot problems ?

Marketing.

Pg music, has a staid marketing program.

A new, cool, easy to use version, wrapped up neatly, pointed right at high school musicians (there are some left), to practice the horn, or other band instrument, with computer aided tutorials.

This would mean the kids would get a way to go from scales to real songs. Even if it mean getting the copywrite to certain songs for EDUCATIONAL purposes.

The same sort of box, with a more of a rapper type appeal, or wrapper around it, and done right through other media sources, or internet. That would fly I think.

Another market, but the opposite, is the returning retired guy with his horn in the closet. Show how to put together a system to practice, and get the fake books and charts. And awaaaay we go!

Ok.

<< my comments are product-neutral

Hi Scott,

I do not consider your criticisms about our products to be valid, until you have at least used them.

From your messages, the last experience you had with our products was PowerTracks Pro, a long time ago. You've never ran RealBand, or BIAB in the last 10 years or so. As you've stated, you have no interest in auto-accompaniment.

For example, about 5 years ago, we came up with RealTracks. These are not accessible from PowerTracks Pro, but are accessible from Band-in-a-Box and RealBand. If you are looking for improvements in our products, you should try RealTracks.

At least your "product neutral" criticisms of our company should be accompanied by a disclaimer that you don't have, use or want to use our products.

Peter, fair enough. I do not own current versions of any PG products. Relevancy to the thread is not limited to product ownership, IMO. It would be a boring world if market research was done only by listening to and paying attention to current customers. I think all persons who have responded in this thread would be interested to hear your opinion on the answer to the question posed.

I'm fully aware of how real tracks work. A big reason I stay tuned here is to see of some of these longtime feature requests will get resolved. The tempo integration with vst/vsti is a huge deal to me.

But I doubt that is the reason for the poll results. What is your educated guess/opinion/substantiated reason for the results?

There have been some interesting opinions shared.

For the record, I DO want to the products when it's clear that the very items which caused me to look elsewhere are cleared up. I don't have tonown the software to see thatntey are not yet resolved.

Also let the record show that I made a sustained attempt to get PG products added to the list of DAW software in Wikipedia, probably 3 years after I quit using PG products. This is actually a matter of somewhat public record in the edit history and related discussions for that particular page. I added the websitte, prduct pages, etc. And they were removed after a day or two by an overzealous overseer of that family of pages. The ensuing protest that I made was rejecfed out of hand due to the overseer's opinion that PG products had no evidence of 'notoriety' in publications and so forth. I attempted to mount a campaign here on the forums to right that wrong. A few folks got upset but I don't know that anyone other than myself tried to do anything about it. I eventually gave up.

So, I do take exception with your comment that I have no desire to use the products. Simply not true. I could reallyngive RB a workout in the upcoming FAWM but I am laying out my play money right now for a New Epiphone Firehawk Custom.

I would be glad to carry on this conversation with you in private but I have no way to contact you. I can be emailed from my website.

I woulsd also honor a request from you if you simply want me to go away. I would miss the online friendships that I have here.

Scott

>>> What is your educated guess/opinion/substantiated reason for the results?

We're #10 ...

http://www.digitalmusicdoctor.com/press/music_software_popularity_2012Q1.htm

Quote:

We're #10 ... based on recent search engine activity

I would be very interested in the relative difference in sales numbers - not in absolute dollars and sense, but in relative overall number of DAW software units sold. (well yes in dollars and sense too, but wouldn't want to ask for any 'private', or 'inappropriate' information)

The answer to this, I think, would lead the conversation to a more meaningfully place and extend my hunch and the question I was getting at with the initial post.

Quote:

- not in absolute dollars and sense,

I love inadvertent typos like this that somehow still make sense.

I also would think that what you are asking is indeed private and inappropriate information.

Such is also nonconclusive, really, since the comparison given is mostly multitrack DAW softwares vs Band in a Box's Autoaccompaniment.

The first question I would have would be to ask how the given placement was derived and what was the methodology behind the count. If it is data taken from some sort of online polling, it is only worth the bits it took to publish.

As an engineer, I would say that nothing statistically valid could possibly be derived.

Lots of modern statistial abusers will argue that point. Am thinking of a research prof whom I saw asking the CEO offering the study grant what result they wanted to get...

--Mac

Quote:

I would be very interested in the relative difference in sales numbers - not in absolute dollars and sense, but in relative overall number of DAW software units sold. (well yes in dollars and sense too, but wouldn't want to ask for any 'private', or 'inappropriate' information)

if you're a statistics guy, you probably know that for any population, there is practically no attribute that is present in 100% of the population.

For example, if you sorted all users of PGMusic products by the attribute of forum membership, you'd get a subset of the whole. Most likely a small subset, along the lines of "tip of the iceberg"

With that thought in mind, check out the list of registered forum users:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showmembers.php?Cat=0&page=1

And consider the fact that many customers of other DAWS also have BIAB... so it isn't even an "either or" ratio. The numbers Peter quoted show absolute numbers for each product... but if you counted ONLY people who use another DAW and don't also use BIAB, the numbers would show a truer picture of BIABs market share.

Also, if you go to the forum and take note of all the non-English speaking forums... we're talking a significant global presence in all the economically desirable markets of the world. That's a lotta people!!

edit: I see that Mac pretty much negated my statistics approach.. but its STILL a lotta people!

Quote:

I agree with Mac that this informal poll likely is only valid under conditions for which would make it not reliable as market research evidence.

It's only persons who choose to reply.

It contains responses (at least one) from people that are not active users of the product.

etc. ad infinitum.

-Scott

the way I read it, it wasn't a poll at all... it was based on total internet activity on the 4 major search engines. That's a fairly unbiased sample, and also a very large number... which is significant unless it can be shown that there is some assignable factor in place skewing the randomness of these samples

Even in the case of you, whose internet activity would indeed skew the data, the presence of outliers cannot significantly change the center of the bell shaped curve.

Yes, what poll?

Internat traffic might register higher on software with more problems, complaints and controversy, not more overall use. But, who is to know?

Old guys Google a lot!

However, could it be BIAB is riding the BabyBoomer Wave. That could indeed be a good thing for them! Plus all those young guys will be old some day and perphaps turn their attention from the bars to the home studios.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

- Benjamin Disraeli

What makes ya think that Google search is honest or trustworthy?

One can simply pay them to come up first on a search...

But its not just Google, per se:

Online results in general have often been skewed by nefarious use of scripting and robots, too.

--Mac

Quote:

It would be a boring world if market research was done only by listening to and paying attention to current customers.

I disagree. When I go looking I want to hear how the software/product/ etc is working now, in today's world, and not how it worked "back then"...

Just sayin'

Quote:

What makes ya think that Google search is honest or trustworthy?

One can simply pay them to come up first on a search...

But its not just Google, per se:

Online results in general have often been skewed by nefarious use of scripting and robots, too.

--Mac

good point... I DON'T think its completely trustworthy. But I also don't think its completely UN-trustworthy. IMO, it's at least as irrational to completely disregard data as it is to completely trust it. Those rankings look about right to me.

another issue with this "poll" is that they chose what software products to include in their analysis rather than discovering all available products and then ranking them. so, if they left out a product, either inadvertently or intentionally, their chart might be a whole lot less useful. to me for example the fact that Reaper was excluded is an issue. because Reaper is so much less expensive than Pro Tools and because they essentially deliver a fully functional trial that never expires it is difficult to estimate how popular Reaper is but many folks have estimated it is now #2 behind Pro Tools.

Quote:

...MO, it's at least as irrational to completely disregard data as it is to completely trust it. Those rankings look about right to me.

What happens in a court of law if and when a defendant or witness is found to be telling one lie?

All testimony from that person is considered to be nonvalid.

As to whether data "looks right" to somebody, well, that is hardly the scientific method either, Al Gore the ManBearPig excepted.

--Mac

Quote:

What happens in a court of law if and when a defendant or witness is found to be telling one lie?

All testimony from that person is considered to be nonvalid.

While that may be true in a court of law, applying that analogy to almost ANY other principle or circumstance would not only be riddled with fallacy, … it would in some cases be downright dangerous.

Imagine if we applied that analogy all the way from a simple white lie, …(like the answer to the question of “does this dress make my butt look big?”), all the way to up to governments and religion of any faith.

Imagine if we applied that principle to the sources of all simple, dominatorial and extravagant lies. All personal communications, all governments and all religion would be invalid, … or as you said, ...“nonvalid”.

Talk about opening a can of worms! Hehe.

Bobert, Amico, welcome back from retirement. You have been missed by at least one flatulent old Oyrishman. I honestly expected you to pop out of your gopher hole when I misspelled Bill Munroe and suffered brain fade while naming flat-pickers. I know that you can name dozens of Bluegrassers that I missed. Should I say: "Welcome back?", or are you just here until the cherry harvest?

I assume that you have heard that Mike Auldridge died December 29th? A long bout with prostate cancer.

I tried sending my condolences to his wife, Elise, but his email address is already closed. Mike also has two daughters, Michelle and Loren. Can't find them either.

Quote:

As to whether data "looks right" to somebody, well, that is hardly the scientific method either, Al Gore the ManBearPig excepted.

--Mac

Ok... you got me on that one....
I can't trump the ManBearPig card, so I'm gonna have to surrender now

But, FWIW, Peter Gannon presented the data. You'll have to set ManbearPig loose on him.

Don,

Quote:

I assume that you have heard that Mike Auldridge died December 29th?

I hadn’t heard that Don. My condolences to you as Mike’s friend and to his family.

The music world has lost a very talented musician who not only played from the heart, but helped push his chosen instrument into national prominence.

I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I’ve watched and listened to him play live several times.

He will be missed.

I just couldn't sleep so I was reading.

1. Scot says he has no way of getting in touch with who? Wow, I used google, the website here and came up with lots of ways.

2. Google just was exonerated of putting it's own interests first in searches. They now have the right to shove their own sites up to the top, and drop the rest down.

So it's on to getting more companies.

I note that if I google, 'ear mites dog'.

I get answer dot calm and the rest of them first. The grab all the responses to the question and shove them at you. Nice. But I hate that.

Things must be taken with a grain of salt, or a block like the cows lick.

And someone who plays and instrument but does not have Band in a box is broke. Golly, that's the first thing you need, it keeps you motivated, playing and practicing, and improving. There are too many reasons to buy it and own it.

I understand if you don't have dime one. But I have the ,3, 5, 7, 9 and 11.
Don't ask.

Me personally i lioke the fact that PG music is not aimed at high schoolers and dubsteppers. I spent a ton of time early on in theis hobby over at Acidplanet.com it was unrulely, and crazy there. Tons of fighting, and fussing. Bad manners and the lot. A pile of good music stuffed in the cracks around a bigger pile pf ... er well let's just say Stuff!

I do agree that PG needs to address the VSTi timing issue, and i have spoken out on that one, also the automation needs updating. If those two issues were dealt with to give us a basic automation node based feature, and the timing issue was addressed so programs like Jamstix could sync i do not think i would even need to load another DAW. Actually i have not record a single track in another DAW in months. Still i look forward to those two things being brought to fruition.

As far as Scott not using the program, i also hung around cakewalk long after i stopped really using the program, mostly due to friendships, and familiarity. I also hoped some really good things might happen with the first music software i ever owned. I still pop in once and again to say howdy over there.

Peter i do commend you for even wieghing in here on this. I am sure you read a lot of slack on these boards, and sometimes want to smack us in the head, but are mostly very restrained i might say.

Having said that, I am sure you can understand Scott's point a bit as well. there are in his opinion a couple deal breakers in the process for him as least.

Maybe you could sometime, at least address why these issues continue to be ignored, and please know that if that whatever the reason, most of us do appreciate the direction the system is going, and understand priorities in business. It is just that the VSTi timing and automation have been on the customers list for a looooong time now. So many people clamor for a GUI upgrade, but in reality it works great even with a "dated" look, but these two issues would bring in a few more customers, and really help the ones you have.

Well, here's today's LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mus...gulars-20130107,0,701810.story

Appearing in Vegas: "Zedd, Def Leppard, Bassnectar, Skrillex, Diplo, Nero, AVICII, David Guetta, will.i.am, Afrojack, Rusko and Madeon, among dozens of others."

Any who are familiar with these artists, raise their hands.

When they're headlining in Vegas, that's as mainstream as you get. Remember when Elvis settled down at the Hilton for 7 years and how that was the beginning of the end of the big band style orchestras there? I really hate to say it but our stuff including "hip" jazz fusion is basically dead as far as the big picture goes. We're on the periphery looking in.

Bob

Quote:

When they're headlining in Vegas, that's as mainstream as you get. Remember when Elvis settled down at the Hilton for 7 years and how that was the beginning of the end of the big band style orchestras there? I really hate to say it but our stuff including "hip" jazz fusion is basically dead as far as the big picture goes. We're on the periphery looking in.

If we only look at pop music, that's true, Bob

But some of the most successful businesses are those that focus on niche markets, because they are often the only presence in that market. People who focus on whatever is mainstream end up dividing the pie among all the contenders for that market.

That's part of what makes this niche interesting. The baby boomers are still one of the largest economic special interest groups of all time, especially as we approach retirement and have time and disposable income on our hands. Whether or not it's their target I can't say, but PGMusic's products have strong appeal in that market, while everybody else is dividing the pie in the "contemporary" music arena.

But, what is contemporary? A lot of Christian and country music sells quite well in todays marketplace, and PGMusic products are a better match for those genres than anything else.

And you COULD make a hip-hop, TECHNO or TRANCE song in BIAB, but I'd hate to have to make a country song in FLStudio.

Also, among the products that appeal strongly to young 'uns, I wonder how much product they actually SELL, as opposed to how much gets bit-streamed. I would guess that a high percentage of PGMusic's users actually paid for the product, whereas I would bet that A lot of the online activity for those other products is stirred by people who didn't pay for the product

Pat says>>> I'd hate to have to make a country song in FLStudio.

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pat answered the question right there...

I came (back) to Band-In-A-Box because I needed A BAND!!! I wanted REAL drums (not something going BSHSH..BSHSH.. over and over). I wanted someone playing piano. I wanted a fiddle. And a pedal steel!!!! Didn't even know I wanted a cello - but try to make me give THAT up now.

Teens and 20's, etc, "making music" today don't NEED a BAND. There is no longer a need (in that world) for musicians of any kind. They don't WANT it to sound real.

I, for one, hope that PGMusic NEVER, NEVER, EVER begins catering to that crowd.

I completely agree Pat, just pointing out one possible answer to the original question in this thread.

I've been thinking of getting one of the better controllers and either upgrading my old Sonar or getting a new DAW that has better features than Real Band like remote transport control, automation, works with Jamstix and the like. I don't need it but it looks like fun. They all come with different software packages and I've been reading about that and looking at online video tutorials.

It's unbelievbly difficult to get anything from them because nothing is remotely related to our music. I have to watch the videos, listen to this total crap stuff and try to discern if all those controls, sliders, pads will actually relate to what I want to do. It's not easy believe me. I can't just turn the volume off because I need to listen to what the presenter is saying and all the background "music" makes my teeth ache. It's all about how the Akai pads are great for creating beatz just like their MC controllers so popular with hip hoppers, how these cool looking led sliders can trigger arps and envelopes and those things sound like absolute s***, how these Novation buttons can change scenes in Ableton and the examples sound like my cat in a blender, look at this hot sub bass beat cruncher plugin in Mixcraft and listen to all that cool wall thumping lo fi crap and hear the presenter say in a low throaty voice "Oh...yeah" and talk about how great it is and on and on. Nobody is demoing how to record and mix a basic band with horns and vocals for example. I've been on Live's forum and there are a few real musicians there who talk about how they use Abelton for that but I sure can't find any examples of it, it's all this other junk so I basically take it on faith, yeah these things will all work and I'll be on my own with whatever I decide to get.

Nobody is going after us boomers except for PG so that's their niche for now. But, in ten years...

Bob

Sorry, but I see too many assumptions here...

There are actually a lot of young people interested in real music, and seriously studying their instruments. You only need to take a look on youtube to discover an impressive new generation of GREAT players on every genre you can imagine, including, of course, jazz music.

Then, regarding electronic (and "contemporary") music, well...there's bad electronic music and there's is very good and interesting electronic music around there, just like in any other genre. Miles Davis, for example, recorded "Doo-boop" (essentialy an hip hop album) when he was 65 and Herbie Hancock made the same on "Future2Future", a great electronic jazz album, when he was 61 years old. The attitude and the respect that these (among many others) great jazz musicians have always had towards new musical tendencies should be a lesson for all of us.

Having said that, I'm personally happy with the basic BIAB philosophy. The program is, by nature oriented to simulate live musicians on different styles, and this is, precisely, what makes of BIAB such an unique program on the market.

BUT, at the same time, I wouldn't like to see BIAB keeping "anchored" to a couple of main styles. IMO, the balance between jazz and country realstyles on one side and realtracks covering other genres is disproportionate. This is the main reason I haven't upgraded this year. While there are a couple of new (and very welcomed) styles and instruments offered, most of the new realtracks seems like new variants of styles and patterns already pretty well covered. I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format, but will be more than happy buying new sets covering classic disco music (think Nile Rodgers), funk music (think James Brown or The Crusaders), or any other set expanding the coverage of soul, reggae, afrocuban music (danzon, mambo, son...), brazilian music (samba-reggae, brazilian funk....) or any other genre you can imagine.

I don't know if the average BIAB user is over 60 or not, and in fact I think this is not the point. But I firmly believe that everyone seriously interested in studying his instrument in every style is a potential BIAB buyer. In this sense, for me it's clear that a wider stylistical coverage in future versions (and, yes, an aesthetic and functional redesign of the GUI) would attract new users. No doubt.

Cerio puts some truth on some word.

Plenty of young - and serious - musicians out there.

--Mac

Maybe the basic explanation for the poll results is simply that all the young musicians are practicing, playing, partying, and making love, while all us old f*rts are wasting our final days hanging around this here forum.

Jes' Sayin' (Put yer own emoticon here)

<<< I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format

Fair enough, but with 1,100 RealTracks to date, we have lots more than country and bossa

<<< but will be more than happy buying new sets covering

<<< - classic disco music (think Nile Rodgers)

we don't have this, but it would be good to add

<<< - , funk music (think James Brown or The Crusaders)

We do have 4 RT sets of jazz funk (Jeff Lorber, Alex Al, etc.)
And more are planned.

>>> afrocuban music (danzon, mambo, son...)

We have Guajira, Bolero, SonMuntono. These are all RealTracks, done by Rebeca Mauleon (piano) and other great players.

>>> brazilian music (samba-reggae, brazilian funk....)

Good ideas.

Quote:

<<< I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format

Fair enough, but with 1,100 RealTracks to date, we have lots more than country and bossa.

I for one, would like some good flamenco' and 'Latin' styles, and a list of the 'kickass' best of styles, so I don't have to go previewing through 1100 styles to find the most realistic.

I have a 'rocker'/'blues' friend who comes over, and whenever he comes over, I begin touting the amazing aspects of the program, and then I go and try to find some 'best of' style demo tracks for him to jam over (because he's far better than me at this point - and I want to give him the backup to watch and learn what he does).

Now - I'm the first guy to say that I haven't put the time needed into previewing all the 1100 styles to find my favorites. Not that I don't plan to, either, but until I get that time to preview, select, and tweak - surely, of these 1100 styles, there must be a top 10 or 20 in each genre that most musicians will agree are the "best of", and you could save a lot of time pouring through the 1100 and get busy making music with your friends if there was just a couple of lists of them, maybe put together by the very users on this forum ; )

Let me just say in advance - I'm not lazy, just busy with lots of other things. Somehow, my friend and I always revert to downloading a .MID from the Internet, and it always sounds way better than the style demos. And it's not just because we 'know' the songs already - the mix itself sounds better, more energetic and 'groovin'.

Again - maybe it's still my lack of experience and putting the time and tweaking in to discover the right tracks. So I'll end with this question (I've posted separate thread on it, but no takers

For my 'rocker' dude friend, who plays in the style of Cream, Stones, Stevie Ray, Hendrix, Zeppelin, please share 5 or so what BB Styles / RealTracks styles that sound 'kickass' and will inspire his soloing.

Lastly - regarding Latin styles, I mentioned I have an excellent teacher that could potentially program some killer flamenco styles. Now it seems to me that on this forum, there hasn't been a lot of interest generated in my flamenco-related posts. So although this guy is the calibur of musician that could generate killer flamenco tracks in BB Styles/RealTracks, I'm pretty sure PG wouldn't find it a great investment given the demand (or lack thereof) in flamenco music (if they would, I'll contact my teacher and ask if he's interested). But expanding the style set to "Latin", and including Rumba rhythms (a la Gypsy kings) and Latin rhythms (Strunz and Farah),Bossa (is covered good enough already, I think) - hek, maybe even some other World beats like Indian (bollywood or tablas) - he he he, now I'm really moving to left field. But how many Indian people and Chinese people in the world might need a backing band ? I think culturally, they value education and music far more than we here in America.

Quote:

Cerio puts some truth on some word.

Plenty of young - and serious - musicians out there.

--Mac

When I started playing guitar years ago there were no guitar teachers in our area. Now there are at least 5 treaching music sudios that I know of and I’ll bet that there is even more. Plus these also teach other instruments. The reading music base has expanded in this area.

Quote:

Cerio puts some truth on some word.

Plenty of young - and serious - musicians out there.

--Mac

My niece is 16, and has just passed her 6th grade piano with honours. Obviously classically trained.
But what does she listen to after practice is over?
RAP!
I have trouble getting my (old) head around that.

Going back one more time to a previous post where I ask if there are more 'interactive' ways to practice and learn piano rather than looking at sheet music exercises and DVD's - wouln't band in a box be the perfect complement to reading (piano) exercises in getting to know the piano keyboard layout without looking at the actual piano keyboard ? At one level, this doesn't teach you to read notes on the staff, but at another, by seeing and emulating the (piano) music visually displayed on the BB/RB keyboard, and trying to play it without looking at your fingers, assuming you are reviewing the names of the notes internally in your head - is this not a wonderful way to complement your reading studies while making it it more fun, interactive, and using the power of the computer to do so ? I think there's a guitar where the frets light up, and a piano where the keys light up - similar concept, except then your dependent on looking at the instrument itself. BB/RB is one step of improvement (for the disciplined practitioner) in that it teaches you to memorize the instrument without looking at it - something very difficult without a little help at the beginning (all this just coming from my imagination - as you all know, I haven't learned to play the piano yet, just practiced reading some scales and gotten bored quickly - looking for a more fun interactive way, maybe as I've described above).

Let me know what you think of the above as a complement to any music program.

Quote:

My niece is 16, and has just passed her 6th grade piano with honours. Obviously classically trained.
But what does she listen to after practice is over?
RAP!
I have trouble getting my (old) head around that.

My dad didn't understand (nor like) me listening to Miles, Jimi, Diz, Stevie, BS&T, CTA, Beatles, Cream, just about anything on the pop, soul and rock radio as well, back when I was a high school student practicing Classical musics.

So what?

The kids gotta get along with her generation.

And, if Pop would have even feigned interest in such, well, as the kids say today, "ewwwww..."

--Mac

Quote:

Plenty of young - and serious - musicians out there.

and they are all potential customers for PGMusic products, which is exactly why I answered the thread's original question as "Why don't the younger users of PGMusic products have a presence on the forum?" instead of "why don't young people use PGMusic products?"

we are taking about two or three different things at the same time. Kids who are trained musically have probably been introduced to BIAB by their music teachers at some point, and will most likely continue using it, because it is without a doubt the one music product that is aimed at all the classic music styles that trained kids have been taught.

Kids who are untrained musically seem to gravitate in a different direction. It's always easier to find more untrained people than trained people, so the youth market is skewed in the direction of kids who like music but don't know anything about it except which programs their friends acquired illegally or got bundled with some device they bought at Guitar Center.

<insert standard anti kid disclaimer here>

When I was their age, I wanted to be around others my age.

The girls had a lot to do with that (ya think?)

My prediction is that today's youngsters will get around to things like this when its time to get around to things like this. Well, a certain percentage of the whole.

--Mac

Regarding all the peanut gallery opinions about "what PGMusic ought to do..."

I've NEVER heard anybody say they didn't upgrade because the interface didn't change, but you OFTEN hear people say they didn't upgrade because the current batch of styles or real tracks didn't meet their needs. Sales are fired by functionality more than by form...

( except among posers. like the ones who have a $3,000 guitar but can't play it. But DANG, it SHO NUFF LOOKS GOOD! they value form over function. But PGMusic's products are a function-filled suite of musical tools that wouldn't appeal to that crowd anyway. So why devote resources appealing to them??)

A privately owned company with limited resources and a global customer base needs to spend its resources wisely, investing time and money in the things that add true value to the functionality of the product.

I'm glad they focus on additions that help me make music instead of changes that make their product look like the rest of the sheep in the pasture.

"Baaaaaaaaa". (I don't see PGMusic ever saying that.)

Quote:

Regarding all the peanut gallery opinions about "what PGMusic ought to do..."

I've NEVER heard anybody say they didn't upgrade because the interface didn't change, but you OFTEN hear people say they didn't upgrade because the current batch of styles or real tracks didn't meet their needs. Sales are fired by functionality more than by form...

( except among posers. like the ones who have a $3,000 guitar but can't play it. But DANG, it SHO NUFF LOOKS GOOD! they value form over function. But PGMusic's products are a function-filled suite of musical tools that wouldn't appeal to that crowd anyway. So why devote resources appealing to them??)

A privately owned company with limited resources and a global customer base needs to spend its resources wisely, investing time and money in the things that add true value to the functionality of the product.

I'm glad they focus on additions that help me make music instead of changes that make their product look like the rest of the sheep in the pasture.

"Baaaaaaaaa". (I don't see PGMusic ever saying that.)

Well put, Pat!

>> and a list of the 'kickass' best of styles, so I don't have to go previewing through 1100 styles to find the most realistic.

That's what the Band Button (on the main page) is for Joe. It gives the best styles (all RealTracks, no MIDI), and they are sorted by genre and feel. It is a menu, so you don't even need to open a dialog. Should be able to get to a style in a few seconds, and there is also a menu item there to load in a song demo for the style you just loaded.

More guitar solos like say Beachboys, Berry, then moving forward more easy rock and pop like the Dire RT tracks, but differet licks and sounds. Although i am sure i can change that up with the raw tracks and amplitude.

I still think Oohs and Aahs would be a big addition

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<<< I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format

Fair enough, but with 1,100 RealTracks to date, we have lots more than country and bossa

Thanks for your answer, Peter. Please, don't misunderstood me. I use jazz reaktracks all day to study my instrument, and I love them. Then I, like many others, use BIAB as a tool to create backingtracks, or to generate single instruments tracks for other projects. If I want to work, say, in a jazz/bossa/country project, there's no problem, I have plenty of options in BIAB. But if I'm working out of the scope of these styles, then is not always so easy getting what I want out of BIAB, and I usually need to look elsewhere.

As an studio tool, I personally see BIAB as a great collection of virtual instruments. The more versatility I have style-wise, the more value has the product (at leadt for me).

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<<< but will be more than happy buying new sets covering

<<< - classic disco music (think Nile Rodgers)

we don't have this, but it would be good to add

<<< - , funk music (think James Brown or The Crusaders)

We do have 4 RT sets of jazz funk (Jeff Lorber, Alex Al, etc.)
And more are planned.

>>> afrocuban music (danzon, mambo, son...)

We have Guajira, Bolero, SonMuntono. These are all RealTracks, done by Rebeca Mauleon (piano) and other great players.

>>> brazilian music (samba-reggae, brazilian funk....)

Good ideas.

That's great news. I love Rebecca Mauleon Santana and Jeff Lorber realtracks, and I'd love to see more of them. Disco, funky and new brazilian styles would be fantastic.

Cerio, the 'new Brazilian styles' interests me, of course. This could mean a lot of things, from the electronic-influenced sounds starting fifteen years ago or so, to anything they are doing now (Dani Gurgel, for example). What I've had success with is posting in the Styles Wishlist and supplying specific artists and even song snippets, so PG Music hears what I'm requesting. Maybe if you place specific suggestions there, I can support and contribute to the request.

What brought me in as a BIAB customer in the first place was the wide variety of styles available when it was just a MIDI based application. I'll have to admit that I was extremely skeptical when the Real Tracks were introduced but as the number grew and I began using them in conjunction with my large loop library, I became a believer and I purchase the audiophile version each time it is offered. I'm always eagerly awaiting the next release to see what new styles and Instruments have been added. Frankly I could give a rip about the GUI. It doesn't look as sleek and professional as any other windows application that I run but it gets the job done and that is all that counts.

I'm into Country, Blues, Pop, and Rock and Roll and as well as those have been covered by Real Tracks there will never be enough for me. So as long as those offerings continue to expand and I'm still earning a paycheck I'm going to keep on ordering the new releases as they become available. I'm okay with the fact that there are other interests that need to be catered to other than mine but I buy all the styles and actually play with them even. If I don't incorporate them into my playing. I've actually made my largest strides as a musician by forcing myself to play styles of music that I wasn't particularly interested in.

I think the one of the main reasons that the PG Music offerings are what they are at this time is that through these forums they listen and respond to their customer's wants and needs with real and substantial changes. I can't answer why there are so many of us old timers here influencing the evolution of the program but I think the if the make up the forum did change, you probably would see pressure applied towards offering a quite different set of styles.

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and a list of the 'kickass' best of styles, so I don't have to go previewing through 1100 styles to find the most realistic.

That's what the Band Button (on the main page) is for Joe. It gives the best styles (all RealTracks, no MIDI), and they are sorted by genre and feel. It is a menu, so you don't even need to open a dialog. Should be able to get to a style in a few seconds, and there is also a menu item there to load in a song demo for the style you just loaded.

...thanks for sharing that - you can see I really haven't played with the product enough. That button has been raised to the top of my priority list : )

Sometimes the smallest bit of information makes all the difference.

...ahhh...now I see it - haven't read through the manual or tutorials for a while, and was fooled by the button icon "Sty" - thought this was to pick a style. Most other buttons have a title underneath, "Best Styles" or "Favorite Styles" would have been more intuitive for me - not that the tool tip doesn't say it clear as day.

Thanks again.

Well, I´ve finished buying the upgrade (downloading now)...these realtracks from Rebecca sounds just too good, hehe...

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Maybe if you place specific suggestions there, I can support and contribute to the request.

Sure, I´ll do

Not that PG would have to do that, I would just be interested in how many BIAB users are actually out there (unless that's already been disclosed and I missed it). The number of forum members does not necessarily equal the numbers of BIAB users.

As far as age... who really cares? Those of us who are a bit more seasoned will always treasure BIAB a heck of a lot more than a "Beat maker/Producer) could ever imagine. They got their fruity software... let 'em be happy with it.

Cheers,
Mike