Anyone here have a Tenor sax for sale?

One more thing I forgot to add, sometimes a mouthpiece can be a contributor. I have a few mouthpieces and I find that certain mouthpieces work better with different saxes. The mouthpiece that gives me intonation challenges on my Grassi works well on my Mac and vice versa. I don't know why this is so. Fortunatly, they also give me better tone on those saxes, because I would sacrifice challenging intonation for better tone.

Even if you do end up getting a new sax, be sure to have it evaluated by a good sax tech.

When I bought my Selmer Mark VI, Selmer Mark VII, and Grassi Prestige I tried three of each out with a tuner and picked the best of the three. In the case of the VII, the three had very close serial numbers. On my other sax purchases I didn't have that luxury.

My new MacSax has relatively good intonation (better than the others I've owned). I got it via internet order and it was the first sax I didn't try before I bought. However, I got a no questions asked return policy on the horn.

My first school rental sax was an old Conn (fireworks on the bell) which was not nearly the sax that Conn used to sell. It was flimsy, light, thin, and as a kid, I didn't know if the intonation was on or not. After it seemed that I was a natural, my parents took the money they had saved from all my previous cash Christmas/Birthday presents and I bought a used Selmer Modele 26 sax. That was a pretty nice horn. Not too long after that I got the brand new Mark VI which had excellent tone but like all saxes of that day, had intonation challenges. I did end up getting first sax in the all-state band each year that I was eligible. The section leader usually goes to an alto player by default, but it was given to this tenor player, so the working with the strobe-o-conn and the instructions from my band directors paid off.

When you get the rental horn home, note the brand, model number, and serial number. There are a lot of people on the sax on the web forum who know a great deal more than me about saxes and know the strengths and weaknesses of individual models and the serial number runs.

Notes

Ah, I missed the fact that this horn is a School Rental instrument.

Nevermind.

--Mac

I am a tenor player too. The advice above is all sound. A tenor sax of any kind is a compromise tuning wise, its a question of lipping notes into tune and that takes a trained lip or 'embrouchure' and a good ear. All this comes naturally with time.

I did not read through every post but did people mention that many of the modern student instruments play very well indeed, even the chinese ones from ebay etc. I have a King super 20 its a classic instrument and its a lot of trouble to maintain, the modern instruments have computerised engineering and that gives better relaibility. Old instruments can be tricky.

All it takes is one inadvertant knock on a pad and sometimes the whole instrument becomes tough or evn impossible to play, if pads are worn or damaged this too seriously handicaps the instrument, thats were a sax technician is so useful. If you can its worthwile getting it looked over by a tech. BTW a cheap mouthpiece can hinder too, esp the plastic ones.

Well, the teacher has tried many different mouthpieces, is a rather accomplished player in our area, and cuts quite a bit of slack for instruments for students. This one he is thoroughly disgusted with. I should know model number, serial, etc. by this evening.

I'm not against buying a Chinese made instrument, if quality is more reliable than what can be expected from vintage instruments. I've experienced this in guitar shopping. While it pains me, it is also a reality. Quick, everyone look at your mobile phone country of manufacture.

-Scott

Since this is a rental instrument, how about asking them to change it, based on the judgement of the reputable teacher?

The instrument is a Jupiter - model and s/n still unknown as it is locked up in the band room at school (son plays on 7th grade bball team.

Matt, good idea, I'll see if I can get Rex to write a letter stating the issues.

Your teacher will tell you that the market is flooded with plastic mouthpieces which are really just made to make it true that a mouthpiece is 'included in the box'. They have a kind of brittle, ugly sound. Ebonite mouthpieces are more respectable and give a warmer tone. Metal mouthpieces are most often played these days. My advice is don't get hung up on mouthpieces until there is a modicum of embrouchure developed. The muscles need to develop in the lip and then there is a lifetime of brain wiring to get those nuances of vibrato etc.
I have a friend - Willie Garnett - a wonderful man in all departments generous kind and honest. He repairs horns in London, has done for forty or more years, looks after the top players, has had his own big band and a quintet, knows many of the greats. He is a true expert - not just someone with a certificate in something. He always tells me there is a lot of hype around horns and mouthpieces.
Assuming you cut out the real rubbish, so many horns blow well these days - if set up properly. BTW the way a horn can be checked is by using a cigarette paper - if it moves too easily under a closed pad then there is a problem. Another method is putting a light down the horn in a dark room. If light peeks through then the horn is leaking. A leaky horn will make a beginner (and pro) struggle hard. Pads: pads have a life, they are made of pigskin and get out of shape as the get moisture swelling them. Every few years of playing a horn needs repadding if played hard. Pad condition of a second had horn are frequently out, only an expert can really tell.
Back to mouthpieces - you can pay silly money, but I play a Otto Link New Yorker, which is I suppose a couple of hundred UK these days, this plays fine , I dont see the need ot pay £2000+.
Reeds, another factor anbd a very important one. A read has a life. Especially for beginners its a little harder to play when fresh, then gradually soften over the months, until discarded. Beginners play thinner reeds on the whole - size 2 ish. They do fx the tone. Stan Getz played a hard reed it was part of his tone - hard reeds sound softer, thin reeds sound brassier.

Hey Guys.

I just had to say how fascinating I've found this thread. As a guitar/bass/keyboard person, my knowledge of the saxophone is strictly limited and I found these posts really interesting. It's also increased my already considerable respect for sax players!

Many thanks.

ROG.

Ooh, ZeroZero, a Super 20 - is it a Silversonic? Made in Cleveland Ohio? I've never owned a Silversonic, but it is one classic horn I'd like to own for a while. I played a Super 20 alto with a silver neck/brass bell for a little while and that was a nice horn.

I had a Mark VI for a long time and an H.Couf for a long time too. Actually, I preferred the Couf because it had better tone, better intonation, and the key work fit my hands better. Plus, every Selmer I've ever owned has played sharp causing me to keep the mouthpiece at the very end of the cork. The VI was a fine horn, but IMHO it's over-rated today because of it's collectible status and it's idolatry.

Rockstar-not:

The Jupiter has a reputation as an adequate student horn, but I've never played one. Even a good horn can have a bad one roll off the assembly line but those are not as common as they used to be.

A good sax tech is still recommended. It might just be suffering from a fixable problem.

Here is something you can do to train your son's ears. Have him tune the horn with an electronic tuner, then play long notes on a sequencer, have him play a long note along with it and use his lip and ears to match the tone. If he has trouble, use the tuner as a help, but only at first, as he needs to learn ear/lip coordination, not eye/lip coordination.

If looking to buy a new horn, I'd recommend MacSax http://macsax.com/ or Baronne http://www.philbarone.com/

I own a MacSax and it is an excellent horn. IMHO About 95% as good as a top-of-the-line horn and at about half the price. Mike Crouch (MAC) used to work with Phil Barone. The saxes are made in Taiwan, but don't let that scare you. There are some very excellent horns coming out of Taiwan these days. For more recommendations and other people's opinion, again the Sax On The Web forum is a place to go.

Notes

Quote:

Hey Guys.

I just had to say how fascinating I've found this thread. As a guitar/bass/keyboard person, my knowledge of the saxophone is strictly limited and I found these posts really interesting. It's also increased my already considerable respect for sax players!

Many thanks.

ROG.

I play both guitar/bass and sax, although I'm much better on the sax due to decades more experience on it.

It's easier to read music on the sax, as you don't ever have to take your eyes off the music to look at the fingers, it is only one note at a time, and the fingerings of the notes are more logical.

It's easier to transpose on the guitar. Move up one fret and you are in a new key. The fingerings of the same scale or arpeggio in each different key is entirely different. So while on the guitar you can learn 5 different fingerings of the major (or any other) scale depending on the position on the fretboard, for each different scale on the sax you have to learn 12 different fingerings, one for each key.

Neither the guitar nor the sax is perfectly in tune with itself. However the guitar is closer to being in tune with itself than the sax, and it's easier to adjust (if you have a good guitar). The sax intonation varies more and is different from note to note. The Bb may be flat while the B might be sharp and the C right on. On the other hand, a person with a good ear and good sax can overcome the intonation challenges on the sax much more than the guitarist can. For example, if a particular not is flat, the sax can lip it down to be perfectly in tune. That isn't easy on the guitar - if you have a whammy and you can play as well as Jeff Beck you might be able to do that.

Of course there are plenty of other differences between the two, but these are the ones that aren't so obvious to people who don't play both.

Notes

So, Notes - this model would be a good instrument to invest in? http://www.philbarone.com/store/saxophon...e-brass-classic

That's the least expensive of the MacSax and Barone models that I can find - and frankly not that much more than what I am finding used that are supposedly worthy of purchase.

There's a store here in CO (about a 3 hour drive from my house) that specializes in new and used Saxes: http://saxalley.com/ and I simply can't see myself driving 3 hours to find a used instrument for $800, that needs a $200 pad job on it, if I can get a new instrument with new pads, etc. for under $1700.

-Scott

No Notes, it's not a silver sonic alas just a regular one - then of course then of course there are the Zephers, these were the 'student horns' from the King factory, but blow just as good as the super 20 IMO. I also have a a Jupiter tenor and it plays very well indeed, in the right hands its as good as many pro instruments.

The link you provided had me a little worried, it seems to be all about the laquer - the prices I mean. I have always not worried about laquer, on a secondhand instrument a relaquer dulls the tone and devalues the instrument. I see lots of Chinese instruments with various colours reds blues and greens even, its a bit gimmicky. Also the "vintage" that is not vintage, does not impress here. Still I have never played any of these instruments and that's the acid test.

I say go for a Jupiter

Now if I can take the topic slightly to the side, on guitars I got a beautiful 12 string and a six string from Edman instruments on Ebay the price of a meal for two.

Now what I want is an electric that sounds as good as a Les Paul for under £100 UK

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/Genera...pare_table=true

this search will give you some idea of the prices really paid for these instruments, they are often found in local shops and are rebadged for a small fee. IMO many of them play fine.

http://queen-music.en.made-in-china.com/...ne-QSA-AL-.html

How about this used Selmer that might still be available locally here in Colorado Springs: http://cosprings.craigslist.org/msg/3621343677.html

Edited - put in wrong link to begin with.

For Mac and others,

I'm also contacting Kurt at Rondo Music to see if there is an SX/Agile equivalent brand in the saxophone world. He doesn't have much of anything in stock right now.

Sometimes a private teacher will recommend that it is time for a better instrument because the teacher has a particular sale deal in mind. Worth asking, Scott. And don't accept first price quote, bargain, if such turns out to be the case.

--Mac

Quote:

So, Notes - this model would be a good instrument to invest in? http://www.philbarone.com/store/saxophon...e-brass-classic

That's the least expensive of the MacSax and Barone models that I can find - and frankly not that much more than what I am finding used that are supposedly worthy of purchase.
<...>

-Scott

I've never played a Barone, but they have a great reputation on the Sax On The Web forum. When I bought my MacSax it was a tossup between Barone and Mac, and I chose the Mac because he agreed to put two coats of silver colored nickel on it and still guarantee that it would play in tune.

The only thing I would think about is the bare brass. I know they are in style these days, but brass corrodes without protection. In some people's hands (like mine) and in some climates they corrode faster than others and develop a green patina. The green itself isn't bad but the blisters can make it look terrible.

My old H.Couf sax, which I dearly loved, turned into this, because in the state of Florida, nobody re-lacquers saxophones anymore - environmental reasons. Most states have done the same, and to get it relacquered I would have had to send it off to Indiana for 3 to 4 months. I sold the horn to a repairman who sent me pictures of it restored and it looks good again.

There is a big debate about relacquering horns, some think it ruins the tone, others do not. I've always been in the relacquer camp. Stan Getz had some of the most beautiful sax tone ever, and he played the same Mark VI for decades, and it always looked flawless. I personally believe it is impossible to keep the original lacquer on a horn that long. I used to have my horns relacquered every 4 years and it never made a difference to my ears. I did have a great sax tech though, and I think that is the clue (unfortunately he's up in the sky, repairing horns for Getz and Coltrane now).

Between the Couf and the Mac I bought a Grassi. Mainly because it was gold plated and I figured it would be better than bare brass. Unfortunately in about 10 years the gold flaked off and it started corroding. Thus the nickel plated MacSax.

Many years ago I traded a collection of my BiaB styles for a late 1800 alto sax. It was nickel plated and other than a few minor pits, it looked very good. So before I bought my Mac, I called Anderson Plating (they specialize in musical instruments) and asked them what was the most durable finish on a sax (I have a music dealers licence for my software, so they will talk to me). They said regular silver nickel. The price they quoted to replate my Grassi with silver if I stripped it down myself, plus the cost of having a tech repad and realign the horn was about the same price as I paid for the Mac. So now I use the Grassi in my weekly outdoors gig at a salt water marina (it's the birthplace of the Navy SEALS and all the stuff on the wall was left by SEALS during their annual muster/party). You can't see the corrosion because it is mostly on the side of the horn that faces me and under my fingers. But if you could see it close up, you would see it starting all over the rest of the horn.

I don't have a picture of it (except in my avatar and on the stand on my old promo picture here http://www.nortonmusic.com/cats/photo_1.html it's big so I won't link it - also in the picture is my old Couf when it was still legal to relacquer it) but my old King alto was silver plated and still looks decent. I also like the high pitched overtones silver produces when it vibrates.

So I caution you from saving a bit of money to get bare brass.

I do know everything is expensive, and even old top of the line brand saxes aren't the deal they were when I was young. If you do go used, get an independent evaluation from a sax tech.

Notes

Quote:

How about this used Selmer that might still be available locally here in Colorado Springs: http://cosprings.craigslist.org/msg/3621343677.html

Edited - put in wrong link to begin with.

Looks pretty good. The USA Selmers are not as good as the French ones, and are definitely high end student horns. From what I've read I think they are pretty equivalent to the Mac and Barone horns - but I have no first hand experience with them.

I wouldn't buy one off Craigslist without having someone look at it.

I was loaned a Selmer/Bundy once when my Couf was getting relacquered, and it was too thin and light for my tastes, gave it a weak tone. But since the sax tech loaned it to me while he overhauled my Couf, I'm not complaining.

Quote:

For Mac and others,

I'm also contacting Kurt at Rondo Music to see if there is an SX/Agile equivalent brand in the saxophone world. He doesn't have much of anything in stock right now.

I think the Mac and Baronne saxes are the equivalent. They are made in Taiwan and sold directly from the importer, no distributor(s) in the middle to take a cut.

Saxes are by the nature of the beast, more expensive than guitars. Brass is more expensive than wood and I think there are about 800 separate parts in a saxophone. Plus they are more difficult to maintain, unlike a guitar, most people can't do a lot themselves. On the other hand, reeds are less expensive than strings.

Notes

I have been following this thread a bit and can maybe add something..

I only started playing about 5 years ago and first bought a Chateau Tenor (made by Tenon Industrial in Taiwan.) I realised after one week that the plastic mouthpiece is a key problem and bought a bakelite Yamaha one, (still using it today...).

(I crave a metal one but its quite pricey over here)

The comment about the reed is also important, The guy who coached me gave me a 2 1/2 but it was proving to be too hard for me, I quickly moved to a 1 1/2. That made the world of difference for me as a beginner.

After about 18 months I outgrew the Chateau as I found that I had to put more pressure on for the valves to seal properly. You then start working to battle the machine instead of making music (same as a bad guitar, had one of those at one time as well!)

I started looking around for better quality but still affordable and bought a Yanagisawa
(made in Japan) in the end (a from myself to myself 50th birthday present). (6 times the price of the Chateu though) A beautiful instrument, good value for money. It seals with very light fingers and is a dream to play.

I watch the reed and replace it as soon as I detect it failing ...(if you buy a box the unit price really comes down a lot)

Here in South Africa the Selmers are just too pricey given the duties, import taxes the government adds.

Just my story .....

About raw brass, Notes mentioned that some people have body chemistry that will corrode brass. Be aware also that some people are allergic to raw brass, or develop an allergy after touching it for awhile. I know several trumpet players whose lips were affected when the plating gradually wore off their favorite mouthpieces. Just something to keep in mind if you go that route.

CountryTrash mentioned reeds.

The right strength reed is very important, and for the same player the reed strength will vary from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. In general, larger tip openings require softer reeds. Larger tip openings and chambers also generally produce a darker sound.

Reeds vary in quality in the same box. Some just play better and some don't play well at all. Hold them up in front of a light and look at the evenness of grain and translucency. After a while, you will see what works best for you.

Abrasive reed rushes and a reed clipper can help rescue some reeds, others are hopeless. I also find it best to put 4 reeds into rotation so they have 3 days to dry before being played again. It makes them last longer. I have a plastic reed saver case that accommodates this.

There are a lot of variables in mouthpiece design, but unfortunately they are a bit expensive so trying out the multitudes of different variations is out of the reach of most. It's like guitar pickups in that it is a major tone producer.

As a student, a middle-of-the-road hard rubber mouthpiece like an Otto Link #6 is a good start. Especially if he/she is in school band.

Insights and incites by Notes

OK Model number is Jupiter JTS-789
S/N: N10251

OK Model number is Jupiter JTS-789 looks like a good choice. Also its possible to get chinese metal mouthpieces on ebay cheap

Quote:

OK Model number is Jupiter JTS-789 looks like a good choice. Also its possible to get chinese metal mouthpieces on ebay cheap

The Jupiter I listed above is the model that the teacher thinks is pretty crummy - he's tried it out with a few of his mouthpieces.

Here's his assessment: "It is inconsistent in tonal quality from the top to bottom of range as well as intonation, it then creates problems for a young sax player trying to compensate."

I would go by your teach then, he has seen it.

As far as I am aware all models of sax are a tuning compromise, my King certainly is. As far as tonal 'inconsistency, well I haven't heard that before. Across the register of a sax (like all instruemnts) there is a vast tonal difference we come to be accustomed to that and think of the sax in this way. It's hard to tell what he means without hearing it.

There are many non 'name' saxes available in music shops cheaper than the Jupiter - which is a mini 'name' amongst student saxes. I have bought quite a few for people, they are frequently rebranded chinese. They blow good, but resale wise, no one has heard of them so prices are down.
In the UK many want a Yamaha, so the resale value is good. I bought a Yamaha (alto) for myself, I hated it, it was bright and zingy, I took it straight back. Some people like the sound and that's great for them. If a sax is old and dirty it can add to the Kudos of the sax player, like a dirty Strat, but buyer beware.. pads and their seating.

In the end its about money,ears and condition, plus lots of sales hype

As ZeroZero pointed out, a lot is a matter of taste, and although the model you mentioned has a decent reputation, there are always inconsistencies between different individual horns in the same run. As I said, when I tried out 3 with close serial numbers, the intonation signature of the three were similar but different in severity.

The Yamahas have good resale value, and a good reputation with repair people, but again, the tone is a matter of taste. I prefer a darker tone myself, which is why I didn't keep my Mark VII very long and adored my old H.Couf.

I would suspect that for a student, ease of playing and better than average intonation would be good attributes.

I also would avoid very cheap horns. I don't teach anymore, but in the past I have a few private students. One girl bought a cheap soprano sax, because she adored Kenny G. but had a difficult time playing it.

Smaller saxes are more difficult to play anyway, especially for a student, because little changes in the lip make for a bigger change in the intonation. But she could not hit a high E on the sax. I tried it and the high E was a challenge for me to hit as well. I had a Meyer classical mouthpiece at the time and I tried it, with no improvement. I had her take it back.

So if a sax tech cannot get the Jupiter in regulation (and I suggest the school look into that), it might be time for a decent student horn.

The Yamahas are bright sounding, but you can darken that with a large tip opening/chamber mouthpiece if you desire, but they have good resale value so when it's time to trade up to something better, you will get a better trade in.

There are experts on Sax On The Web forum that know a lot more about that than myself, including a lot of people who repair/overhaul saxes. Like any forum, there are a lot of people who are happy to help a newbie, especially someone who is bringing a new young sax player into the fold.

Notes