An interesting thread on song writing broke out in the user showcase, and I'm starting this thread so it can continue here without hijacking Herb's song thread.
All of you who have already posted know who you are! If you wantto save time by cutting and pasting what you've already said in the other place, wonderful!
or, if you want to say something new, that's cool too!
Here you go... just some thoughts that previous posts in the thread lead me to jot down....
Cello.
I enjoyed Charlie's posts. I commend him for going about commercial songwriting in an intelligent manner. His analysis was detailed and accurate. And I wish him luck and look forward to hearing "how it's going"... The one point that I think is not necessarily "right" for his plan (assuming the plan is to get some attention in the market), is "Of top 5-6 recent country hits on the radio now, how many have a cello? NONE." Just because you don't hear cello currently on Country radio, doesn't mean you should leave it out of YOUR songs. When Taylor Swift started adding banjo to her stuff, you could have said "That'll never work! No one has used banjo for YEARS!" Today, you'll hear a banjo in 50% of everything recorded. And, as Kevin notes, the Americana market IS using cello. And a lot of things filter to Country productions from the Americana market.
Studying what is currently on the radio is a great way to improve your songwriting. Although the topics of the current crop of (guy) songs has become cliché, the songwriting is not. Those cliché TOPICS are presented (the song writing) in fairly original ways - a little fresh - said differently than it was the last time... You have to be able to do that to write at that level. If all you are doing is stringing together a bunch of tired lines and not stating them with a little bit of fresh, don't expect anyone to pay attention. Your song won't get past 20 seconds before it's turned off. That would be 3 cliché lines. Click. And... That FIRST line needs to be something interesting. It HAS to grab attention.
Current Country is more a Sound than it is about the lyric (though the lyric does have to be well penned). It's pop rock with a twang. It's a flow, a rhythm. There are very few leads. You seldom hear all those licks after every lyric line the way you did in the 80's and into the 90's. What used to be "the signature lick" is now a "signature rhythm". Listen for a couple of hours and you'll hear it. It's a driving rhythm that carries most Country songs these days. In between verses, you'll hear the "signature rhythm" not leads (speaking in general - there are still songs with leads). There are virtually NO ballads anymore. And like Charlie says they are BIG and BOLD. They soar.
One thing to note... a good idea to learn to write as well as the current crop of songs on the radio. A bad idea to present them to Nashville. They have moved on. The songs you hear today on the radio were written at least 6 months ago - and more likely, a year ago. The Nashville writers are writing something different right now. It might not be WILDLY different than what you hear on the radio, but something has changed. It "gets around" - what is happening or "coming". If you present a song to a publisher (or an artist - if you somehow have those connections) that is patterned after the current Blake Sheldon song, even if it is better written, it will be turned off and you will be asked...
"You got anything new?"
In order for an outsider to get noticed in Nashville, they have to present a game changer. Like Swift's banjo - or, really, like her peppy, self-portrait, personal, teen-age girl writing... Tom Douglas did it in 1993 with "Little Rock". It was very different than what was "on the radio" at the time. (Douglas had "done the Nashville thing" earlier and had given it up. But he knew the craft). He made an impact with something "different" and went on to big success.
Nashville doesn't need you. They don't have time for you. If you are good enough to write in Nashville, the likelihood is you already live in Nashville. Because it is your passion and you would give up everything for that dream. It would be a HUGE waste of a publisher's time to look outside Nashville for good songs/writers. Quality "outside" writers are few and far between. Needle in a haystack. They have a pocket full of nice, sharp needles. They don't need the haystack. There are 1000 staff writers in Nashville who are writing well-penned, interesting sounding songs on a weekly basis. So multiply that 1000 by 52 (weeks). Or, give those guys a break now and again. Say half that. 25,000 songs. Good ones. Right there at their finger tips. Think of how many albums are released by the majors in a year. 200? (probably less). 12 songs per CD. 2400 slots? A percentage taken up by the artist writing with Nashville writers (not because those writers "know the right people" - They KNOW how to write hits). You can do the math.... So, understand... they are not looking for you!
For your song to get noticed, you need to write something that will make their eyes pop out of their heads - within the first 20 seconds of hitting the play button.
It can be done. Stay true to yourself. Get better all the time. Use a cello.
My reply to Floyd's post in the other thread: I agree with Floyd's assessment and comments including his thoughts on use of a cello or other instrument. New instruments/sounds become the rage throughout the history of both rock and country. Rockers seem to have more leeway than country for the most part it seems to me. I would suggest that its use be part of the artists/writers overall image of the completed work.
I agree with Floyd that Nashville does not need us. They do have a large pool of writers/songs to draw from but I suggest that is not an entirely inclusive pool. Outsiders do get in.
A producer's familiarity with writers and their style sometimes get them off the short list. The producer knows in outline form what is going to be offered stylistically and lyrically. They are constantly seeking new styles and sounds. Other times, a producers personal stake in an artist/writer gets them included simply for the benefit the producer receives from his portion of the pie.
Producers, staff members, artists and AR rep's do look at Soundcloud, YouTube, Itunes, CD Baby and other independent outlets for breakout songs. Your chance of getting heard is increased if your songs are available on line somewhere. I think the trick here is to be sure you've placed your song in the right genre, have a catchy song title and capture the listener's interest in the first 10-20 seconds of the song. Your song needs to be strong out the gate. I agree with Floyd that what is on the radio now will be slightly different in 6 months to a year, I think you have a better chance of a producer listening to your song longer if he 'hears' a Blake Shelton, Florida Georgia, Zak Brown Band sound than if he hears Charlie Rich, Willie Nelson or Glen Campbell sound. I would also suggest there are a multitude of the 2nd tier record labels and producers trying to emulate the sound on the radio in order to ride the coat tails of a major hit by a major artist.
For clarification and not intending to get off on a rabbit trail, but my reference to the use of the cello related to Herb's request for input regarding things someone would do different to his song that was thought to possibly make it more appealing commercially and current. My input was directed toward that and not as a mis-use of the cello as an instrument. I likely would have said the same thing years ago when Marshall Tucker Band used a flute in the intro of "Can't You See" if it showed up on a forum before being released for radio.
Thanks to Floyd and Charlie for reposting their very insightful thoughts here.
Being an analytical kind of guy, I love hearing someone else's analysis of why a song does or doesn't work.
Floyd, one of the jaw-dropping observations you made was about songs that are more than 6 months to a year old. That was a wakeup call to me, because I tend to think in longer spans than that. But, now that you've said it, it makes sense... and it also makes me realize how unaware I am of the past 6 months trends in music.
(continuing with short posts to isolate each thought)
One of the take-aways from my recent trip to Merlefest was the evolution of the genre. I half-expected to hear an evolutionary progression that paid tribute to some of the ground-breaking artists like Bela Fleck... but the evolution wasn't in one direction.. it was more like an ideological explosion with every band taking the classic set of bluegrass instruments to a completely different place... and they were all making it work!
I have to wonder how many of them are tied to "the industry" and how many are forging their own path through exposure online and at music festivals
Producers, staff members, artists and AR rep's do look at Soundcloud, YouTube, Itunes, CD Baby and other independent outlets for breakout songs.
this brief observation could easily start a whole new thread, but let's stir up some discussion about the elusive "breakout song" I presume by that you mean a song that broke the rules and changed genre?
What songs in the past to y'all see as having been a breakout song?
What used to be "the signature lick" is now a "signature rhythm"
now there's an eye-opening observation!
I've noticed that a lot of current music in MANY genres has borrowed the rhythm of rap music without taking anything else.
Early rappers took beat snippets from other songs and rapped along with the beat. One of those early snippets was known as the AMEN BREAK , and you can hear it everywhere these days... new age to Contemporary Christian to Country to NewGrass etc etc
This beat is available in RealDrums as one of the hip-hop beats
For your song to get noticed, you need to write something that will make their eyes pop out of their heads - within the first 20 seconds of hitting the play button.
its also worth noting that there are countless stories about songs that were rejected by the big dogs, but which went on to become major hits because they appealed to the public.
There is a time lag between what the public thinks is hot and what the shakers and movers think is hot.
Floyd, one of the jaw-dropping observations you made was about songs that are more than 6 months to a year old. That was a wakeup call to me, because I tend to think in longer spans than that. But, now that you've said it, it makes sense... and it also makes me realize how unaware I am of the past 6 months trends in music.
Pat - so you are saying that you think the song you might hear on the radio are perhaps years old?
Keep in mind that I am only talking about how things work in Nashville (where there has always been an environment that treats the songwriter as an important part of the business).
And, my point was that if you are writing stuff that sounds JUST LIKE what is on the radio today, you are behind the curve. By AT LEAST 6 months - more likely a year - but in some cases it might be longer.
If someone were to pick songs for a CD that were written in the last few weeks (all "fresh"), how long would it be before you and I heard one of them on the radio. The search for material will go on for a couple of months. It takes some amount of time to record those song. Time for mixing. Time for mastering. Time for the record company to gear up for the push. Time to market and grease whatever wheels are required to get airplay... Generally 6 months for that to happen. A year, maybe?
Some songs do get recorded years after they are written. But someone has to really believe in it. A publisher has a very small window to pitch songs to an artist. A handful. A single meeting. Half hour to an hour? They have a group of writers writing all the time - let's say 15 - a small house. If the handful of their favorites that they have chosen to pitch - because they think they are hits - don't get selected for a CD, after a VERY short amount of time, they stop pitching it - they move on to the new stuff - they have to place songs to make a living. They don't spend years pushing the same songs that aren't getting chosen....
Producers, staff members, artists and AR rep's do look at Soundcloud, YouTube, Itunes, CD Baby and other independent outlets for breakout songs.
this brief observation could easily start a whole new thread, but let's stir up some discussion about the elusive "breakout song" I presume by that you mean a song that broke the rules and changed genre?
What songs in the past to y'all see as having been a breakout song?
I'd be really interested in knowing where this comes from... who would have time to do that? and how? I've wasted countless hours on YouTube listen to just a handful of tunes... which is usually Don's fault!!!
What used to be "the signature lick" is now a "signature rhythm"
now there's an eye-opening observation!
I've noticed that a lot of current music in MANY genres has borrowed the rhythm of rap music without taking anything else.
Early rappers took beat snippets from other songs and rapped along with the beat. One of those early snippets was known as the AMEN BREAK , and you can hear it everywhere these days... new age to Contemporary Christian to Country to NewGrass etc etc
This beat is available in RealDrums as one of the hip-hop beats
Pat - correct me if I'm wrong... but it sounds like you are thinking in terms of (sort of) drum beats... The rhythm that I am referring to is a combination of everything (all instruments) going on together - particularly the chord progressions of the guitars - the rhythm of the backing tracks as a whole....It might have been better expressed as the "signature SOUND"...
Pat - correct me if I'm wrong... but it sounds like you are thinking in terms of (sort of) drum beats... The rhythm that I am referring to is a combination of everything (all instruments) going on together - particularly the chord progressions of the guitars - the rhythm of the backing tracks as a whole....It might have been better expressed as the "signature SOUND"...
you aren't wrong.. I did spin your observation into something else. More of a "stream of consciousness" thought than a direct reply to what you had said.
I realize you were talking about the whole sound, and I agree with that
Pat - so you are saying that you think the song you might hear on the radio are perhaps years old?
not at all. I was just remarking that my awareness of changes in the genre are not calibrated at 6 month increments. I wasn't disagreeing, just expressing surprise at my own lack of awareness.
I thought that your entire essay was extremely interesting and full of keen insights into the business of making music. We are fortunate to have you on the forum.
I agree the signature country sound of today owes more to RAP than classic country. Listen to the newer vocalists, many speak the lyrics in time with the beat of the song for much or all of a song. Mixing and production values owe more to rap's "in your face" style than was common in country just a few years ago.
Part of that has to do with the artists, their relationship with music and the audience they want to attract. Luke Bryan, Florida-Georgia Line, Eric Church, The Band Perry, Jason Aldean don't care what genre their music is classified. They just want to attract the largest crowd they can to their events. Blake Shelton, Toby Keith & Josh Turner's country is old school.
I had the opportunity years ago to submit a song for a Nashville project. The opportunity came about from a recommendation to the producer by a friend of my late brother. The friend of my brother, who I had briefly met on a visit with my brother had heard a particular song I had written and he felt it met the criteria of the project. I asked if I could submit any other songs and was allowed to submit two other songs - 3 songs on a CD. The project was in its early planning stages and the song I had be asked to submit was placed on a hold situation. I heard from the producer several times over the next several months giving brief updates on the status of the project.
Then one day I received a call from the producer and he began to ask about one of the other songs I submitted. This was the first time any of my other two submissions had been acknowledged or mentioned in any manner. The producer explained that he listened to CD's that had been submitted for the project every day and normally listened to all the songs on each CD. On that particular day according to the producer, as he was driving and had my CD in, his mind wandered back in time to a girl he dated as a teenager and hadn't thought of her in years. To make a long story short, he had listened to that song probably a dozen times and it meant nothing until that day, a connection was made between his recollection and this particular song. The producer spoke with me nearly an hour dissecting this song. Going over each line of the lyrics, questioning why I chose a particular phrase or word, if the lyrics were based on real life or was it an imaginary story. He wanted to know everything about the song and story because in his mind, it matched the emotions and memories of his own experience. In this instance, a song that had been meaningless countless times before, became relevant to him in a moment. This would never have happened had he chosen another CD to listen to that day. He advised he would definitely use this song too.
Unfortunately for me, the project never was completed and neither song was recorded but I learned a lot about the nuances of songwriting from the experience.
SUCH an interesting thread. Thank you guys. I am learning so much.
It is so interesting what is being said about rap music being used as base for other genres. Did anybody see Christina Grimmie on the voice singing a Lille Wayne song in a soul arrangement (I think it is soul but I am bit wobbly on genre's). That is what interests me. Turnin something on its head and producing something completely new.
Interesting also what Floyd has said about songs being fresh. I have had a few songs shortlisted for opportunties on Broadjam and mainly when they were "fresh" and written on the spur of the moment for a particular opportunity. I think the chance of the "old" songs being selected are very very slim.
Interesting thoughts going on here. If I may add a couple of observations outside of where this thread has gone. One idea is that instead of looking at what Nashville wants, it might be interesting to see what the folks that like country genre buy, live, and do. What do they need in music, "Feel Good" or an Anthem or crying in your beer. What's their story, it will be the story in our lyrics. I think it's a main POV instead of a main rhythm. Next point. My wife & I write some Gospel music and have seen a move to "Praise" Gospel instead of a story based Gospel. We tend to write Bible verse centered lyrics and find Praise music only part of the song as if it's a chorus only song with nothing else. Some are great, some not as strong as it could be with a bit more Biblical foundation in them. Instead of following the trend, we'll incorporate the 2 styles and try to stay relevant and true to the Bible. My point, I guess, is to stay true to the message you want people to hear and stay contemporary . Wyndham
At the end of Bach's career he was considered old fashioned because his music was based on counter melodies (counterpoint) and the "contemporary" music was leaning towards a more dominant single melody supported by accompaniment. He might not have made the billboard hot 100 there at the end.
At the end of Bach's career he was considered old fashioned because his music was based on counter melodies (counterpoint) and the "contemporary" music was leaning towards a more dominant single melody supported by accompaniment. He might not have made the billboard hot 100 there at the end.
He was a stick-in-the-mud. I used to constantly tell him - "Joe, man, you've got to lose the counterpoint thing and get hip with some single melodies!"
Years ago, after a weekend workshop with Steve Seskin (Daddy's Money, Don't Laugh At Me) and Beth Nielsen Chapman (Five Minutes, This Kiss) I went home energized to write a hit. After a few weeks of frustration trying to write a chart topper like them, I wrote 'Lawn Chair'. I liked it, others seemed to, well heck, that was the whole point. I vowed then to write for me, the best that I could, and move on. If someone else likes my song, I'm happy.
I hope it makes you happy that I/we like your song.
I make no claim to being a heavy, unless being pounds over my ideal weight counts:) I did have a part in this discussion though.
Like I said, I attended a couple of writing workshops with heavy hitters, hit makers. A song-writing friend convinced me to go. There were a hundred people looking for the 'formula'. The thing is, there isn't one. Those songwriters each told unique stories. 'Five Minutes' sat with a publisher for a long time, if I remember the story correctly, and was finally pitched to Lorrie Morgan, who was an unknown at that time. The rest is history, but the stars had to align for that to even happen.
For what they're worth, here are the nuggets I got from those workshops.
1. You're either transmitting(writing) or receiving(not-writing, listening). Both are equally valuable.
2. Write about what you know.
I recently asked in another thread if anyone was making money from their music. By that I meant from their songs, either with publishing deals or on-line sales or whatever, but not from playing gigs. At the time I was thinking about joining Taxi or Broadjam, still am, but as far as I know, the answer to the question is 'No.'
I've never pitched a song, never tried to. I plan to, one of these days, but I have no expectations. The odds against are too great. On the other hand, people do win lotteries so I won't stop dreaming altogether:)
I consider Good Vibrations from the album Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys to be a breakout song.
good one!
When I first heard Paul Simon's "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" I remember thinking what a departure it was from everything else that was popular at the time.
There were a hundred people looking for the 'formula'. The thing is, there isn't one.
unfortunately, there *IS* a formula for what sold well last year... because every wannabe in the music world has dissected what worked previously and has done his/her best to recreate the magic. Before this thread, I would have said that the big dogs exacerbate the problem by requiring all submissions to match the formula. Now, based on what Floyd has said, that seems partially true at best. It sounds like they're looking for something that's formula enough to fit the public's expectations, but new enough to bring something fresh to the equation.
My guess is it would be very hard to come up with something TOTALLY innovative that the big dogs would be willing to risk time and money on (even if you were a Nashville staff writer, which we ain't)
Quote:
I've never pitched a song, never tried to. I plan to, one of these days, but I have no expectations. The odds against are too great.
This is mainly why I don't post songs to the user showcase. I am blown away by the stuff y'all post here, its all so good I could never compete. I also know songwriters on other forums who make their absolutely awesome songs available for free, and can't get people to DL them. So I focus on making trax for performances. Production doesn't have to be nearly as good, and in the final analysis I know there is at least a little money to be made by performing.
But it kind of makes me sad to think that all of the time and effort required to write good songs is not as financially rewarding as a 1 week course in brick-laying.
--- I was part of a band in the mid-1970's and we released one album. I wrote 9 of the songs and co-wrote the 10th. I married shortly after the release of the album and left the band. Our manager/promoter recouped his investment in our group from sales of the album and my entire 'accounts receivable' from the release was $300.
About a year ago, a company purchased the building and contents of the studio where we recorded the album and there was material of some kind or other archived in the building regarding our time in the studio. A record collector was involved in that purchase and found me via the internet and contacted me about the availability of any vinyl records still existing. I still had a few in storage and sold him a couple for $96.
I'm obviously not writing for the money. ;=)
It is my goal to improve my writing and production to also place with Taxi and CD Baby, Itunes, etc. I'm not familiar with Broadjam, but will check it out too.
I study postings from forums, online seminars and writer/artist biographies and such trying to make sure I am placing my focus into the right areas.
I am currently immersed in the writing career of Bill Anderson. A year or so back, he received either a CMA or ACM award for a song he co-wrote and it was his first formal recognition i believe in 24 years. That prompted me to check him out. He had been busy writing and had been one of Nashville's top writers throughout the 1960's and early 70's. I began to research him and while not winning awards, he was placing hits with artists like Steve Wariner, Joe Nichols, George Strait, Kenny Chesney and Sugarland. Since 1992, every song I've found listed, he has co-written. There is no resemblance between his writing in the 1960's to what he outputs today.
re: Pat Marr and commercial success from writing music.
I stopped writing and performing music after leaving a successful band in 1975 opting for a secure future with a day job, benefits and retirement. My oldest brother came to visit me for a week or so in 1984 to try and encourage me back into writing. Nothing came from it. In 1998 he made a more concerted effort bringing me to Nashville. He took me to various recording studios, introduced me to different producers, AR folk & such. He also made sure I met writers who were making a comfortable living off of writing. He was deliberate in introducing me also to writers who continued to live off a single huge hit or two written and released many years ago. By sound investing of their income at the time, they did not have to work a day job. His point was to show me you only need to get it right once.
..took me to various recording studios, introduced me to different producers, AR folk & such. He also made sure I met writers who were making a comfortable living off of writing.
Charlie - struggling Nashville writers DREAM of those kinds of introductions... and work hard for years trying to get to that point...
A trip to the local cinema can provide some insight into what interests the people who buy music for film projects.
My take on the music industry right now is that fusion is king... everybody seems to be fusing old ideas into something familiar yet different.
Which demographic likes hiphop? Classical? Rock? Jazz? R&B? Electronica? Celtic? In my opinion some of the most remarkable music these days is being made for films, and film music has to draw from many genres to appeal to every kind of audience.
His point was to show me you only need to get it right once.
true... but in order to get it right once, you have to pretty much sell your soul to the system for years, and even then there is no guarantee you'll get it right even once.
Prior to selling your soul to the system, its a good idea to know if you have the talent to seize an opportunity if one comes along. I know I don't have that talent.
My hat is off to the people who try though... they are better songwriters for their determination
Cross genre songs don't occur as often as they use to but some songs seem designed to achieve that goal. In my mind, "Lights" by Journey could have easily been successful on the country chart as it was on the rock chart. Another song ripe for crossover success is "As Long As I Love You" by Backstreet Boys. Keep the vocal, bass and drum track and replace the instrument tracks for a pretty good country song. Nowdays with the release of alternative mixes it's pretty easy to discover that one of your favorite songs could have easily been released way different from the version you remember and love.
If I was seeking commercial success as a songwriter, I would concentrate on writing "seasonal" or "Christmas" songs. There is an annual need for fresh material, if a particular artist's version becomes a standard your heirs will be collecting royalities for generations, songs can more easily adapt to various genre performaces and, most important of all, you don't have to try to match current trends.
Late to the party.... just got back from watching my daughter's college graduation.
I think what happens is that every so often a new song with a cool sound or lyrical theme grabs the top of the charts and suddenly, everyone wants songs like that and everybody starts writing them.
A good example is the currently hot guy's theme of pickup trucks, hot girls, bonfires, out in the woods, etc.... She think's my tractor's sexy, Country boys & girls getting down on the farm....etc...and now every male artist in N-town has one of these songs on his set list/CD.
Taylor Swift shifted the focus to teen pop, boyfriend troubles, with serious rock guitars......
The thing I'm noticing starting to come out of more old traditional style remade heavy rock.... Band Perry with Chainsaw..... and a few others I've heard but haven't caught the names involved. Dobros and banjo's with a heavy 4 on the floor kicking rhythm behind it....and distorted guitars that Def Leopard would be proud of....
Every year or so a new trend occurs, those who see it early enough and write a super song and have the connections to get it in front of the movers and shakers, has a chance. Wait until the trend is fully developed and recognized and the time delay between writing, the A&R hearing, getting it to the artist, becomes the problem, because if it's yesterday's news, it will be dropped from the project. Lots of good, really good songs get thrown on the cutting room floor.
I had Jason Blume sit down at a songwriter's convention in LA a few years back. I had his full attention for 15 minutes and we quickly listened to 2 songs. His comments were to the effect that, hey, you write good songs,,,, but.... in Nashville there are 20,000 people who all want to be song writers and they are good writers too. Your material, from what I just heard is right there with them.... but that, my friend, is the entire problem. You can not be right there with them.... you have to be better than they are in order to stand out from those 20,000 really good and talented writers who are pounding the sidewalks of Nashville looking for the same hit that you are.
I don't have the time or the money or the ability at this point to just drop every thing and head to n-town and live in my truck for a few months while trying to co-write.....
That kinda puts it into perspective. So, I focus on my writing skills, and melody and lyrics and do what I can, while at the same time trying to run a business and keep my family life happy and it's not easy. Music was at one time how I made a living and I did it full time for a number of years playing live gigs. Now days, it's part time, but a serious part time hobby. I take my writing and I take my recording very seriously but I try not to take myself seriously.
I gave up dying on the sword as the expression goes, over my songs. Comments good and bad... hey neither of them bother me. I write with other people, and try to be honest in that writing.... if I like something, and it's good we keep it, if I write or they write something that isn't good, hey, it goes. It's not good just because I wrote it. I re-write more stuff than I write. Nothing you hear is ever a first draft. Nothing is carved in stone, and everything can be replaced. That's my writing philosophy.
Put that together with seminars and books on songwriting, as well as hanging out on forums which the inhabitants are focused more on the song than the production, and you start to learn something about writing. Are songwriters born that way? Some are, very few are actually..... most are folks like you and me who learned the skills and did the right things and pursued the craft and art of the song for thousands upon thousands of hours.....and suddenly, magically, overnight, they were a huge success by having written "that song"....everyone calls it an overnight success story..... ha!!
If I can write a song that gets cut and somehow makes it into the charts, hey, that's really cool...I'll take that. If I never get a cut, I will still keep writing and playing and composing for as long as I have breath and am able to figure out how to turn on my computer and pick up a guitar and strum a chord. I enjoy it, so what else can I do? I hate sports, I don't play golf, and I can't hunt or fish every day...... so...I guess it's music.
I simply enjoy the pleasure of digging down inside of me to find those words and chords that go together, and when it's happening, it's the biggest and best high in the world. Then to hear the finished product... how can it get any better than that? Yeah I know.... to be nominated by the Country Music Association for song of the year..... That would be cool..
If I was seeking commercial success as a songwriter, I would concentrate on writing "seasonal" or "Christmas" songs. There is an annual need for fresh material, if a particular artist's version becomes a standard your heirs will be collecting royalities for generations, songs can more easily adapt to various genre performaces and, most important of all, you don't have to try to match current trends.
For a Christmas song.... write it around Christmas.....demo it in the late winter when it's done..... because the artists are in the recording studio starting in July to choose the songs and start the recording process and shoot the video to have the song ready for release in the stores and to radio & TV by October....or November.
And.... there are thousands of songwriters who know that and are plugging their new and older unreleased holiday music.
NSAI had over 120 songs by members in one year that were deemed good enough to pitch to publishers, and that doesn't even begin to count the thousands of songs that were not written well enough, or recorded well enough to make it over that high bar for "demo" songs in N-town these days......and they were ALL christmas music. And that was just one year. From one outlet. There aren't that many slots available and many artists are writing and co-writing their own stuff.....Swift, Paisley, Band Perry.... so that reduces the slots to maybe one or two outside writers per project..... man it's just downright depressing to even think about it.
BTW: My song The Best Christmas, was one of those 120 songs that did make it over the bar..... but, in the end, only 12 of those 120 were chosen for a CD that went to publishers for the annual Christmas offerings from NSAI....and my song did not make that cut.
RE: to Floyd and Nashville introductions - It was so cool hearing my demo played through a real system in a room made specifically with great acoustics in mind. The embarrassing part was the demos were recorded by my band and one particular demo had a cover song we had did a major remake version - The producer had been polite but it was obvious he wasn't blown away by the original stuff. The cover song came up, he turned the volume up and turned to us and said,"You got any more like this?" $%$$^&&^%% crash and burn $^&&(&*&$% ----- I'd like a second chance at the opportunities I've blown.
I simply enjoy the pleasure of digging down inside of me to find those words and chords that go together, and when it's happening, it's the biggest and best high in the world. Then to hear the finished product... how can it get any better than that?
Same here.
I like it as much as learning a new lick on guitar, or learning a new instrument. Songwriting takes practice, and while it may not make it perfect, it is very enjoyable.
There's a crazy bunch of folks about to embark on what they call 50/90, writing 50 songs in 90 days. Kemmrich might be one of them. http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/
I do the February Album Writing Month challenge, which is 14 songs in 28 days. I had a couple of them this year that I like going back to and listening to. That's success to me.
There's a crazy bunch of folks about to embark on what they call 50/90, writing 50 songs in 90 days. Kemmrich might be one of them. http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/
I do the February Album Writing Month challenge, which is 14 songs in 28 days. I had a couple of them this year that I like going back to and listening to. That's success to me.
I have seen this and thought about it.... a few years back I did a similar challenge on my own.... it was a 12 month challenge to write 26 songs in that 12 months.... one every 2 weeks. At years and I have over 30 songs and a bunch of cues written. It was fun.
For a different kind of challenge..... go to the TAXI website and have a look at the song listings. Some of them are specific song requests for movies. Some of those actually tell you what is happening in a specific scene in the movie and ask for a song that relates to that scene. There is also a DEADLINE date given. Usually, you have 3 to 5 days to write it and record it. Take that as a challenge and write something that you would submit to that particular listing. Hold yourself to all the particulars, the topic, the genre, the dead line.... and see what happens.
This will get you to start thinking out of the box.
The song RAINY DAY is an prime example. I was a TAXI member at that time, saw the listing, and wrote this song. The deadline was 3 days. I wrote, recorded and submitted it in 3 days. I have since recorded it better. The song was returned since it was not the "indi-rock" genre but ballad-rock according to them..... but the comments about the song included the screener commenting that it was obvious that this was written specifically for the listing and was a good write, but the genre was totally off base from what the film producer wanted.
The point is not what I wrote, but that I took the listing as a challenge and wrote a song for it in the time frame allotted.
I love Nashville. One of my first summer jobs out of high school was at a little record company on Music Row. It's changed a lot - population growth. Never getting the big cut wasn't Nashville's fault - it was my fault for making wrong decisions and I still got close. Lots of opportunities, great people and enough great times there to fill a book. No other place like it. Wish I'd never left but some things we do for people we love and that's okay too.
I just do the odd song now for my own enjoyment and to put on youtube. Even on youtube if you are not known, your dog or cat is likely to get more hits. A lot of stuff anyways is driven by social media such as facebook in conjunction with youtube. For example the singing priest that got over 30 million hits on youtube recently was helped greatly by facebook shares.
As regards writing songs and sending them to singers to record or to consider I have totally given up on that. To be honest most of the time there is no response. Even if it is a good song the singer will get all the glory and the songwriter is still a nobody (maybe the exception in the case of a massive hit)
That is not to say if someone heard my song on youtube and wanted to record it, I would say go ahead no problem, wouldn't be too bothered if they made any money out of it either.
As regards the formula for writing a good song I think the old adage still goes, it has got to be simple enough, catchy enough, a nice maybe even simple melodic line, for the guy driving the pickup truck down the road to sing.
As regards doing songwriting courses such as the Pat Patisson course which I have done bits of (and I know is well respected on here) I just consider that pure drudgery and for me totally takes the fun out of writing the song, and I just stopped his course. God knows if he has all the answers then why is he not drowning in hits. That saying he is a lovely guy to listen to and some of his little stories are great. But his course just drove me crazy.On the other hand the music production course by Louden Stearns was a real eye opener for me, couldn't get enough of it, but everyone to their own as people are different.
I do think that eventually some one will make it big because of streetjelly that kind of website, (how's your site coming on Pat if you are reading this?)
Anyways I think the main thing we all try out hand at this is for fun, and other than buying biab and a few other small items I don't throw any money atall at it.
I do think that eventually some one will make it big because of streetjelly that kind of website, (how's your site coming on Pat if you are reading this?)
I am reading this!
It's my son's project... and he is still working on it... but he also works two programming jobs, has a family and plays in a jazz band, so his personal project isn't moving along as quickly as I hoped. Also one of the key programmers at his place of employment quit recently, and my son inherited all his projects, so you know how that affects discretionary time.
He's actually had it ready for Beta testing for months, but he's waiting for a certain server to offer discounted pricing (which they do about twice each year.. last time he missed it by days)
As soon as the server offers another introductory deal, he will put it online and apply the domain name we've already bought... then we can start beta testing. I'm not going to predict when that might be... (I already feel like the boy who cried wolf...)
Pat you hit the nail on the head when you talked about music for film. The record sales market is a thing of the past. The last real bastion for making money from writing music is in the media industry (film, tv etc). It all depends on what youaspire from your music but if you want to make a (real) living then you have to start composing for media. While I am saying this I would totally advise people to avoid sites like Taxi, any site who asks you to pay money to them to be interested in your music is a rip off!!!
Pat you hit the nail on the head when you talked about music for film. The record sales market is a thing of the past. The last real bastion for making money from writing music is in the media industry (film, tv etc). It all depends on what youaspire from your music but if you want to make a (real) living then you have to start composing for media. While I am saying this I would totally advise people to avoid sites like Taxi, any site who asks you to pay money to them to be interested in your music is a rip off!!!
Absolutely.
You fine folks here do get to hear the songs I write but you don't hear everything I write. The vast majority of things I write are instrumental cues and short songs.... 1 to 2 minutes. These almost entirely are getting signed and placed into some of the better and top line music library sites for film and TV use. I have 42 cues submitted to a major reality TV show that is, as I write, filming and in production for their next season. I won't hear from that until after the fact.... but that's cool.
This song..... New Grass Lullaby is one of those 42 that I did actually put up here. And it's on some producer's desk right now..... hoping it gets used in the show.
Yes, the chance of getting a cut in TV or film as source or underscore is vastly greater than getting a cut in N-town from anyone, even the artists that have no hope of making it.
Produce radio ready stuff, style it like the music you hear in the reality shows and get it to the screeners for the publishers and perhaps you will get the greenlight to submit. Send in the music and see if they sign it. I get about a 50% or slightly better signing rate on that kind of music. Still, it's not a slam dunk since there are thousands of writers out there with the same goals in mind writing every day, and submitting song after song, and cue after cue.
But I personally do see this as a more easily achieved goal for getting my music into wider distribution.
I think it's great you're having success with TV! I personally think that market will soon be overcrowded and difficult to break in and actually make money but there is much more demand so perhaps it will balance out.
@bupper
I am not currently a member but I can assure you TAXI is NOT a ripoff company.
A collaborator of mine (on the classic kids song: Cheez Pizza) at February Album Writing Month is a TAXI member, and has been picked up by some TV shows through TAXI. TAXI actually did a vlog with him back a few months ago. It's actually quite a good vlog as it showcases Steve's incredibly variety in the type of music he writes and records. Steve is very prolific. He's a middle school teacher for his day job and a very clever songwriter/home recordist for a hobbyist. He's gone beyond the amateur phase as a songwriter as he's now got real credits and payments for his writing/recording. Here's the YouTube of that video blog with the guy that runs TAXI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jtWGxE6qeM
Steve practices writing. He probably writes a couple of songs per week, when he's not doing FAWM or 50/90. He has made it become habit.
I am in agreement with Sundance regarding TAXI and as Herb pointed out, I also use their listings and deadlines to sharpen up my songwriting. I think Taxi is more relevant today than it was several years ago for several reasons. One, it has expanded into film/tv area and generates more placements for members. Second, it is an endless producer of details for song ideas, song construction and motivation to write outside of my normal genre of music.
I have also been playing with the BIAB melodist feature after learning about it from another thread here on the forum. It seems to be a good starting point to jump-start new song ideas. I began two new song ideas using it over this past weekend. It's akin to someone approaching me and asking "Can you write me a song in *** genre about ***".
.....that market will soon be overcrowded and difficult to break in and actually make money but there is much more demand so perhaps it will balance out....... I am not currently a member but I can assure you TAXI is NOT a ripoff company.
Josie
It's already crowded and the bar has been raised. The music has to be good, well written, and produced and recorded to high standards. There are a few folks who make a living from this niche and a ton of others who supplement their daytime income with music. The money on a cut varies from around $5 for a cut played in a TV show as underscore for 10 seconds, to tens of thousands in a national TV commercial for a major product in an "all in" license deal.
I met a few of the TAXI heavy hitter stars at the LA road rally and yeah, TAXI is for real. The listings are legit. Most folks who don't get forwards are falling short of the mark in one way or another. The songs are either not well written, well recorded, or the wrong genre.... in other words, off target.
I submitted a bunch of songs while a member there and got about the average of 10% forwards. Out of all those I ended up with several signed into a very top tier East coast library. As it turned out the pres of the library signed a number of my songs, including the one that the TAXI screener "returned".
Getting past the "guardians of the gates" is the hardest part of the job. Having said that, while I disagree all the time when I get a song rejected by anyone, the fact of the matter is, most of the time, those folks are professionals. As such, they have heard music and know instantly whether a song has potential or not. They instantly spot the issues that keep the song out of the running. I find myself doing a similar thing as I listen now. I hear issues that keep songs from being commercial. Yeah, the song is good, the person really tried hard, but the reality is that it's just not able to make it over the bar into the professional class. And please don't misunderstand me. This is not putting anyone down. We're all just having fun and writing what we feel.
And please don't misunderstand me. This is not putting anyone down. We're all just having fun and writing what we feel.
its also worth noting... given the fact that your comment is posted to the PGMusic web site, but the topic is TAXI... that the two sites are vastly different in terms of purpose. On this site it is the very absence of commercial constraint that allows people to experiment and try new things... so its expected that people aren't writing songs to pass a test
For that reason, the way a song would be evaluated on TAXI should be vastly different than the way it is evaluated here... two different sets of ears, so to speak.
On TAXI the critics look for polish and for how well it met the criteria the project was looking for...
On the User Showcase, the comments revolve more around clever use of the software, whether it make us feel good when we listen, whether the persons skills are improving, etc etc
In a nutshell, this is an INCLUSIVE environment, while TAXI is an EXCLUSIVE environment.
In a nutshell, this is an INCLUSIVE environment, while TAXI is an EXCLUSIVE environment.
I participate in about 4 different forums. Each one has it's special purpose and a different objective and reason for being.
That's probably a fair way to describe it.However, I've seen plenty of really well spoken and gentle comments over there. They are in fact, focused on the art and skill of song crafting and that is certainly the place to get a relatively unbiased opinion of your song's commercial potential. You don't have to be a registered member of TAXI to participate in the forums. That, I think, is a good thing.
Just like here, they tend to be kind to even the most obviously beginner songwriters. The goal is to help one another excel and learn the craft.
That has gotten me into hot water when for example I offer unsolicited songwriting advice or production advice and ideas on the user forum here.... oooops.... sorry... just trying to be helpful......
I now, try to remember where I am, and make my comments accordingly and based on what I believe to be that particular writer's level of progress with not only writing but production chops.... and sometimes that goes horribly wrong.
That has gotten me into hot water when for example I offer unsolicited songwriting advice or production advice and ideas on the user forum here.... oooops.... sorry... just trying to be helpful......
I now, try to remember where I am, and make my comments accordingly and based on what I believe to be that particular writer's level of progress with not only writing but production chops.... and sometimes that goes horribly wrong.
yeah, offering (and receiving) critiques can be tough. I have had songs accepted into libraries and I sometimes have a smug feeling like "well, of course they accepted that one". conversely, those same libraries have rejected a few of my songs and it is really hard not to think "that dang guy doesn't know what he's talking about!" but generally, I consider those learning experiences when dealing with pros who do this day in and day out.
a forum like this or some of the songwriting challenges I have done is a totally different thing. most folks are doing it for fun and I try really hard to comment on the nice things about their songs and leave the serious critiquing to someone else!
that the two sites are vastly different in terms of purpose. On this site it is the very absence of commercial constraint that allows people to experiment and try new things... so its expected that people aren't writing songs to pass a test.
For that reason, the way a song would be evaluated on TAXI should be vastly different than the way it is evaluated here... two different sets of ears, so to speak. On TAXI the critics look for polish and for how well it met the criteria the project was looking for. On the User Showcase, the comments revolve more around clever use of the software, whether it make us feel good when we listen, whether the persons skills are improving, etc etc. In a nutshell, this is an INCLUSIVE environment, while TAXI is an EXCLUSIVE environment.
IMO...(with no presumption of being a 'heavy hitter' here)
The above are very important distinctions to consider when one is looking for comments or quite honest critiques.
Responses to songs posted here (and similar sites) tend to be more about encouragement to all song writer submissions regardless of any perceived skill level. For the most part, critiques will be soft and cater more to the 'can't say something nice, don't say it' approach.
BUT, for the record....BOTH have their place for participation and will depend on one's musical goals and the thickness of their skin.
Personally, I've never joined TAXI or any related sites over decades of songwriting because I don't write to the masses nor do I think my material would have any possible mass appeal anyway. Just because I've written a song that took me weeks of angst to flesh out does not necessarily equate to a masterpiece...well...maybe in my dreams. I'd be elated just to elude the 'you totally suck' genre.
I'd guess many to most here (including me) likely write/record for their very personal creative therapy.
Best to all here with their music pursuits....one never knows what can happen should the right person hear something one has written.
Jim mentioned Bill Anderson awhile back. I wrote to Bill Anderson once about songwriting and got a very nice personal Email back saying there are sharks in the waters here., my phrasing not his. I have watched the Country Family Reunion shows and the ones featuring the "Songwriter" give an interesting look at the on air relationships and friendships that have developed over their lifetimes. There seems to be a genuine respect and admiration in this "Old School" bunch that grew up lean and relied on one another. There seems to be something that a newer generation seems to have missed with the big buses and mega stag shows. I think the heart of Country Music was in part the struggle to survive that created the genre. Wyndham
Country music used to be called "the white man's blues" due to where it came from and how it spoke to the trials of ordinary people.
The early pioneers of country music, as was stated above, did not rely on fancy light shows and pyrotechnics and all sorts of technology and certainly didn't have the huge sound systems that are common in today's country music and no, they didn't travel round in caravans of buses and semi trucks as some country stars I have seen.
Hank Sr packed everything in a station wagon, tied the instruments on the top, and the rest of the band and suitcases crammed inside. At the shows, a few theatrical lights, if they were in a theater, and maybe a speaker on each side of the stage designed for speaking rather than music.
It was certainly a totally different world they lived in from what we see now days. Musically speaking.
Back then many secondary roads were only dirt roads. Pickup trucks were used by farmers and ranchers for work and they had yet to become a status symbol for men who would know which end of a cow was which. Old ponds and lakes were the only swimming pools people had unless they were rich. If you went messing with the farmer's daughter you were likely to get a backside filled with rock salt from his shotgun. Today, all that and more is grist for country songwriters, and for most people...it's a fantasy, not reality.
What I mean by fantasy is...when was the last time you drove a shiny pickup down a dirt road to a bonfire at the pond with the farmer's daughter sitting beside you? Never?
Write to enjoy, learn or hone a new craft. If you have personal enjoyment from that, then other matters come into play and whether you shoot for commercial success is an entirely different discussion. But at least give songwriting a try.
Many resources have been shared in these forums for how to approach this. But take the first step.
Whether you can be successful with a cello in a song commercially is a matter of opinion, and I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that can predict success or not if one chooses to include any particular instrument.
What I mean by fantasy is...when was the last time you drove a shiny pickup down a dirt road to a bonfire at the pond with the farmer's daughter sitting beside you? Never?
Oct 28, 2006.
I had recently gotten a 2003 F150 with 20k miles. Not brand new, but new for me - and still plenty shiny. A songwriter buddy who lived further out in the country than we did had a big bonfire guitar pull the Saturday before Halloween every year. You had to travel a couple of miles down a gravel road to get to his place - and the last part - his 1/2 mile "driveway" was dirt. Mostly cream-of-the-crop writers and pickers - taking turns either around the fire or in the barn (where he had a small studio). My wife was along - and while she was not a farmer's daughter, she was the hottest cheerleader in high school - so I figure that qualifies. I'd call it living the dream - not a fantasy...
I don't usually listen to country music, but today I had a long task to perform, so I put the radio on the local country station and listened all day.
My take on what appears to sell : almost every song reminded me of some other song in another genre... sometimes VERY close. One song sounded so close to Alan Parson's EYE IN THE SKY that I had to listen real close to the words to make sure it wasn't a direct remake.
Its as though the current rule is to extract the signature groove from another hit, and regurgitate it as a country song. I heard songs that reminded me of Fleetwood Mac, Tom Petty, Rolling Stones, Journey, the Hollies and others
If I decided to try my hand at writing a contemporary country song, I'd start by picking a song in another genre that sold a million copies. I'd listen to it for an afternoon, then I'd sit down at my studio and let my subconscious mind incorporate elements of that song into a new song
Pat, that may be the 'real' formula for being a country hit songwriter. Another thought which popped into my head while reading your post, the artists you mention are likely the actual influences for many of today's country artists. But, they will never mention any of these names from the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It will always be Hank, Lefty, George and Merle. Wonder why you don't hear any of their musical influence?
What I mean by fantasy is...when was the last time you drove a shiny pickup down a dirt road to a bonfire at the pond with the farmer's daughter sitting beside you? Never?
Oct 28, 2006.
I had recently gotten a 2003 F150 with 20k miles. Not brand new, but new for me - and still plenty shiny. A songwriter buddy who lived further out in the country than we did had a big bonfire guitar pull the Saturday before Halloween every year. You had to travel a couple of miles down a gravel road to get to his place - and the last part - his 1/2 mile "driveway" was dirt. Mostly cream-of-the-crop writers and pickers - taking turns either around the fire or in the barn (where he had a small studio). My wife was along - and while she was not a farmer's daughter, she was the hottest cheerleader in high school - so I figure that qualifies. I'd call it living the dream - not a fantasy...
Now that's some funny stuff right there....I don't care who you are....
Pat, that may be the 'real' formula for being a country hit songwriter. Another thought which popped into my head while reading your post, the artists you mention are likely the actual influences for many of today's country artists. But, they will never mention any of these names from the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It will always be Hank, Lefty, George and Merle. Wonder why you don't hear any of their musical influence?
bluegrass ain't exactly country... but there's a definite relationship between the two. I went to Merlefest this year, and one of the things I noticed was the phenomenon of artists naming rock era bands as being an influence. I'm talking multiple acts and multiple influences.
And there was a surprisingly high number of rock songs played directly as covers or as fusion with bluegrass style. I heard songs by the Doobie Brothers, Rolling stones and many others, but my old man memory can't recall the names at the moment.
Floyd mentioned in a previous post that what we hear on the radio today is already old news, the hot writers have already moved on to something else.
I submit that change tends to happen slowly and incrementally. The pattern of borrowing elements from hits of the past appears to have a pretty long shelf life.
What changes is how aggressively one borrows from the past, and which genres are being borrowed from. I'm not very knowledgeable about country music in specific, but I am fairly conversant in the topic of how trends mutate.
I noticed that as I listened to the country station, the older songs borrowed heavily from the 70s, but the newer ones were borrowing from the 80s-90s hits. Some even venture into hip-hop, but that doesn't appear to be main stream yet.
If you look at the demographic, the kids of the 80s and 90s are now adults in the workforce. Many work places have the radio on all day, and advertisers want the radio to be turned to a station that appeals to people in the prime of life spending money on building a life.
Many of those people grew up on 80s music, so it makes sense that young working adults would adapt to new music that contains those elements and influences.
I also noticed that ALL of the songs were very "hooky"... meaning they were built around recurring themes of instrumentation and lyics.
Upshot is, if you're writing country songs in BIAB (any genre really) you need to take special pains to create the hook. If you find a good lick that works, use it throughout the song. Hopefully the lick complements the cadence of the lyrics.
The random generation that makes BIAB great for jamming is not what's needed for recordings. For recordings you need a repetitive theme... and its the songwriters job to make that happen.
PS: I understand I'm preaching to the choir.. this group already does the things mentioned in this series of posts. I'm just writing all this down for the purpose of organizing my thoughts.
Pat - as always, I am enjoying reading your thoughts here - you make astute observations. Since turning the radio back on 2 years ago, I have said - the guy songs all sound like BTO and the girl songs all sound like Pat Benatar. That part is not surprising since the Country music sound has been "borrowing" from old rock for a long time now - the stuff we all grew up on (as you noted). 90's country borrowed more from the singer/songwriter side of things. The last wave seemed to be from 70's rock (who doesn't like that) and the current stuff is 80's pop (which I was never a fan of - but plenty of people were...).
The hits are still being written by a couple of guys (or 3) getting together in a room with acoustic guitars. Writing appointments are usually a couple of hours. Often with a break for lunch (head to a meat and three), talking things over, then back for the 2nd or 3rd hour. Occasionally there is a follow up in a day or so if you didn't finish - not often. More often than not it only takes a couple of hours. The "re-write, re-write" scenario is a myth... The final sound as you have noted is the producers - so it really becomes a different discussion. The writers may be banging on those acoustic thinking "let's write an REO thing this time..." but it's still acoustic guitars - it's the guys in the studio creating that sound that radio is wanting... and that is a part of "The big change".
Many of the big guys (producers) have a small group of writers in their employ - their own publishing house which is then a part of one of the major publishers - so they control what gets written (suggesting) as well as what gets recorded... another reason why you see the same writers names all the time ....
Which was where this thread started in the first place...
Floyd, you have a rare combination of right-brain artistic sensibility and left-brain analytical athinking. Add to that your musical background, and it is no surprise that you are the heavy hitter referred to in the title of this thread.
Now I'm gonna have to listen to more country radio to get the BTO and Pat Benatar connection (which I totally see..I may have been mis-assigning their sound to somebody else)
Regarding the reality that people like us stand a snowball's chance in Hades of ever selling a song to Nashville, the thought occurs to me that the same level of "sell your soul to the industry" (if applied to the task of building your own reputation rather than being applied to the task of writing songs for others) could lead to a certain following who would want to hear your songs played by you.
Joe Bonamassa is a good example of a guy who has forged his own reputation, and now he enjoys the fruit of his labors.
Actually, yes...but more like yesterday BTO, today REO... a year or two ago it all sounded like BTO - big guitar "explosions" and riffs... today it's more like that REO sound where it's just sort of a big no-stop flow of sound - and not so much riffing...
excellent fine adjustment in my thinking.. thanks Floyd!
OK, so we won't sell any of our songs to Nashville...
But It might be fun to have an informal country music contest on the users showcase. and even though we all know who will win, it might be an interesting exercise in applying our collective yet individual takes on the current trends in country music.
Maybe posting songs with the word "CONTEST" in the header would identify songs being submitted for such...
and when the flow of new entries stops, the forum can vote on one they like best.. (maybe it could be automated?)
Or not.
But if there's a contest, that might be the incentive to get off my duff and finally post something
Its as though the current rule is to extract the signature groove from another hit, and regurgitate it as a country song. I heard songs that reminded me of Fleetwood Mac, Tom Petty, Rolling Stones, Journey, the Hollies and others
If I decided to try my hand at writing a contemporary country song, I'd start by picking a song in another genre that sold a million copies. I'd listen to it for an afternoon, then I'd sit down at my studio and let my subconscious mind incorporate elements of that song into a new song
this is a damn good idea! I'm gonna give this a shot (or two!)
one more thought to add to this line of reasoning:
If you have a way to find out the average age of first time home buyers, then zero in on the year that age graduated from high school and pick a hit song from that year.
Home ownership fuels a lot of related spending... furniture, curtains, dishes, etc etc. My guess is that Nashville trends are driven at least partly by advertising revenue
Caaron... Interesting that you resurrected this thread almost exactly a year after it ended!
In the past year a lot of these ideas have remained in my subconscious, and I've thought about them. Here are a few related but new thoughts to add to the mix:
Nashville song writers write songs they hope will be picked up by performers who are currently hot. There is a limited number of hot groups and an almost unlimited number of song writers competing for their attention... and therein lies the statistical improbability of winning the Nashville lottery.
But if you look at the astronomical number of live bands... most of which play covers because they know how to play instruments but they don't know how to write songs... it seems to me that if someone found a way to offer their songs in this arena, the likelihood of sales would increase dramatically.
In the past, the "industry" had the only system in place for marketing and distributing songs... but now the internet has made it possible for any band to promote themselves globally... and many are doing exactly that.
If somebody got good at placing songs with talented unknowns who were diligent about making a name for themselves, it could be good for everybody. The bands would get better songs than they would write themselves, and the writers would get access to a much larger marketplace.
small time bands don't have money to pay up front for much of anything, so "sales" would have to be some kind of contingency arrangement... a percentage of sales, a mention in the credits etc.
Placing one song that got noticed would open doors... whether you got paid for it or not.
Going into a situation like that you may want to define a few things though.
1st-What is the ambition of the band?
There are some bands who's goal is to play popular covers...forever. There is nothing wrong with this, of course. There is a band near me that pulls in much more than some of the older national bands that open up for THEM! They even put out a CD called "Other People's Stuff Live!"
If the ambition of the band is to make it, but they really are not good enough to...you may have a chance there. The problem being is it a dead end road? In addition to that, many times they feel they can just write songs themselves...and it sounds local. I've found for these types of bands is, they are local because of the way they think. They have bought into the "smoke an mirrors" over how the industry works.
If they have ambitions of making it AND "get it" you probably have a pretty decent shot if YOUR songs are worth it
Another route to consider is find someone on youtube who is covering a song in the genre you like AND doing it REALLY well. Approach them with some original material along those lines. The nice part about it it is, you can gauge a bit of their success off of the number of views on the videos on their channel. You can even watch several artists for a few months to see if their views are growing or staying the same.
If you notice, it has an astounding 2500 views! That's, two thousand five hundred. I could tell though, this guy and his bandmate had what it takes. I see this often enough...not that I can predict it by any means though! LOL I'm just saying that had something.
Here is a song they released around that same time...
The lyric video got 4.8 MILLION views! Then they released an "actual video" which got an additional 3.6 MILLION views! It sold 720,000 copies. It charted to #7 on the billboard charts.
Shay also ended up with two co-writing opportunities with Rascal Flatts as a result. Not to mention some of the people he got to co-write with.
I see the inner workings of the industry every day. If you want to find a reason it can't be done, there are plenty. If you want to finds ways TO, as you are probably seeing, you can!
An emerging phenomenon that could make my previous suggestion even more workable is the way ASCAP and BMI are approaching small venues and in some cases shutting them down with back payments for licensing.
This is causing some venues to stop having live music... but others simply require bands to play original non-ASCAP/BMI music.
Behavior tends to follow an incentive, and if somebody creates an incentive for live bands to play original music, they will. Then more will, when they see that the only bands getting gigs are playing originals.
If this happens (and its already happening around here) it could create a whole new market for song writers, as established bands rush to compile a song list of enough originals to play a 3-4 hour set. It would be tough for the average band to write 40 GOOD songs in short order. But if some outlet existed where song writers hooked up with working class performers, they could pick 40 songs from a library and a decent band could learn them in fairly short order.
Seems to me there's an opportunity here for somebody who's a lot better than I am at writing songs.
An emerging phenomenon that could make my previous suggestion even more workable is the way ASCAP and BMI are approaching small venues and in some cases shutting them down with back payments for licensing.
This is causing some venues to stop having live music... but others simply require bands to play original non-ASCAP/BMI music.
Behavior tends to follow an incentive, and if somebody creates an incentive for live bands to play original music, they will. Then more will, when they see that the only bands getting gigs are playing originals.
If this happens (and its already happening around here) it could create a whole new market for song writers, as established bands rush to compile a song list of enough originals to play a 3-4 hour set. It would be tough for the average band to write 40 GOOD songs in short order. But if some outlet existed where song writers hooked up with working class performers, they could pick 40 songs from a library and a decent band could learn them in fairly short order.
Seems to me there's an opportunity here for somebody who's a lot better than I am at writing songs.
Again, great points. The cool thing about that could be there are cover bands of ALL different genres. That means there could be a need for a lot of writing in genres that have previously not had much writing going on in.
As an example, a 50's-60's beach type band that can't play The Beach Boys or that era of bands, may need a bunch of music sounding similar. That could be a lot of fun!
