The image below is one I am currently running on my FB page. I picked it up from another music related site but added the graphic "Unless it is a Charity Event Don't Play For Nothing!"

I see and hear of many musicians falling into the trap (well I think it is a trap) set by club owners/,managers who (again in my opinion) are playing on every musician's "need to perform" gene. The offer goes something like this, "you come in and build up a crowd and then we will talk money".

Just wondering on how a cross section of my fellow musicians here on PG Music Forums feel about this. Now my gut tells me us seasoned cats, yes I mean older, will say hell no man . . . let me and my family try your food for a week and if we like it, then we can talk money.

Opinions welcomed and feel free to elaborate.

Thanks and later ladies and germs,

Yeah had that phase Danny, though thankfully not too often. I don't mind doing freebies as long as I know in advance. Charitable work actually helped to build up my gigs so its a good way to start at least

When we were playing out the only free gigs were at the VA hospitals. Some of those charities that want you to play for free have mega bucks!

We would never play in a club for free! We did have more gigs than we could play but even without those we wouldn’t play for free.

It is the same in every business! I remember how much free work we did when we first started our business. And almost without exception those free jobs NEVER resulted in money. Whatever they pay is how much they value your work and once you agree its value is nothing...well, there you are!

I even disagree somewhat with the disclaimer above about charity events! The charity employees who run the events typically get paid a salary. And they know that running a successful event always costs money (even though it would be nice it everything were donated usually that ain't the case!) You should at least get all your costs covered and you should get plenty of free promotion.

Bottom line...don't work for free unless it is just about having fun, helping out, etc.

The line that gets me is, "We don't have any budget for music."

Well, no. It means they didn't allocate anything for music when THEY made the budget. They made that choice. You then must make yours, but help them to see their error, regardless.

we identify ourselves by our choices.

Desperate is as desperate does. If you want to be seen as desperate, then do what a desperate person does... play for free.

Having said that, I've heard more than one good band say that when they were touring, they made more money busking than they made at the clubs on their itinerary. This could be a statement about who values the musicians more... the club owners.. or the average joe on the street

But ultimately it *IS* about perceived value. You can't sell anything for more than the other person thinks its worth.

added thought: the function of advertising is to inflate the perceived value of a product and make it desirable.

Good points guys, especially beware of some charities, been there with a local charity for years, one rare one that gave 100% of everything collected to the cause. No salaries, no expenses, if you volunteered for this charity all you got was thanks and hugs.

Those are very rare indeed. But in today's world I also realize that some major charities who do great things also pay a CEO and other expenses. Can't throw all of them out with the wash water as many the likes of the Red Cross, Wounded Warriors and St, Jude. Not trying to push any charity on anyone, just an observation, please take it as such.

Later,

Danny, those aren't 'musicians'. There is another word for them, but since this is a family-friendly site, I won't use the term.

I don't think that pros are really that concerned with bottom-feeders, whether they are club managers or “musicians”. Decent venues rarely conduct their businesses like that. They know there is a difference between a bottom-feeding wanabee and someone who plays for a living.

What is of greater concern to me is the general state of the business. This Play For Free phenomenon is only the tip of the iceberg. Smoking bans, DUI prosecutions and the internet have killed the club/live music business. There just aren't that many jobs anymore, and the pay is largely the same as it was 30 years ago. I don't have to tell you that. Adjusted for inflation, we're making less now than we made in the 70's.

This has created a real dog-eat-dog atmosphere out there. We actually had another band jump our booking last week. Cost us $300. Sure, we got more bookings from the club, but we can't recover that 300 – it's a loss, and we had wasted a booking date.

For those who assume that music is “just like any other business”, I would strongly disagree. In what other business are you fired the minute you get hired, uncertain of payment, frequently robbed and have to deal with unscrupulous club owners and other musicians?

Play for free? Sure, at a VA hospital or for the charities you mentioned. For a club? Not bloody likely.

Been there, done that..... not once, but many times. Having said that, you really got to admit that many of the places that are asking this of you are not going to pay you much even when they do agree to "talk money"...and on the flip side, many of the bands and artists that will play there for free are worth exactly what they are being paid....... in other words... nothing.

I looked at those free and cheap gigs this way: The band was new, and we needed to try our stuff in front of an audience to see what tended to work and what didn't. Those hole in the wall places were like the McDonald and Burger King fast food minimum wage jobs. They got you in the door and sometimes you could even make some money. At least covering gas. Heck, I've played a few "paying gigs" where the band leader handed me $5 at the end of the night. That didn't cover gas.

The goal, just like the burger flipper job was not to make it a career but simply as a starting point to the higher paid gigs in a few months.

I do recall doing a few "auditions" in some of the clubs. But that was a bit different. These were the clubs that had the biggest and best local bands, paid good money, drew good crowds, and hired no band unheard. You auditioned for free or you didn't play there and they didn't go to hear you in the next town.

On one of those gigs, the deal was play one set. I hire you if I like you, and if I don't hire you, don't call me for at least a year. DEAL! So we showed up and played. He was charging a buck a head for guys, ladies free on a Wed evening. At the end of the set he says, hey, if you play a second set, I'll give you the door receipts. We discussed it and played the second set. We covered the gas and beer and landed several really nice paying middle of the week gigs. He never booked a new band on the weekend until they had a local following. This was a large beach town main street club, and it was "the place" to play on weekends.

If the goal is to use those gigs on a temporary basis, as a stepping stone, then sure....play them if you want. Just don't make a career out of playing free or cheap.


There was a time, at least locally in NC when a good band could make good money. Those days are gone. I lived in a town with a large military base and that town and base supported numerous bands, several of us were full time and the rest were weekend guys. Once the NC DUI laws changed, the club scene started to deteriorate. Then came the DJ's and more clubs stopped using live bands. The military base has now stopped using live bands.
I was talking to a buddy from that town recently on FB. The club scene is nearly dead. The base isn't booking and the civilian clubs use DJ's or jukeboxes.... he said the pay grade for bands is abysmal. You're lucky to make a hundred for the weekend.

I know that locally, here in this town, there used to be several nightclubs that used live bands. now, there are none. The sub shop and there's an expensive boutique restaurant that occasionally books small bands and singles. I'm sure the pay there is tips and a meal.

Live music is in bad shape right now. I certainly would not want to be out there trying to pay my bills from it.

We do a free gig at the nursing home section at the VA hospital every year, and occasional charities that I believe in.

If it is a profit making place (bar, restaurant, etc.) I do not play for free. In addition, I boycott any commercial establishment that hosts an 'open mic' night and IMHO exploits musicians 24/7. They will never-ever get a penny from me.

If the waiters, bartenders, dishwashers, owners, bookkeepers, janitors, managers, are all getting paid, I see no reason to ask for free music. That equals exploitation and is disrespectful to musicians.

This has been around the block a few times, but worthy of a repeat.

The next time you are asked to play for free:

Ad:
We are a small & casual restaurant downtown and we are looking for solo musicians to play in our restaurant to promote their work and sell their CD. This is not a paying job, but only for special events which will eventually turn into a nightly event if we get positive response. More Jazz, Rock, & smooth type music, around the world and mixed cultural music. Are you interested to promote your work? Please reply back ASAP.

A Musician’s Reply:
Happy new year! I am a musician with a modest house looking for a restauranteur to come to my house to promote his/her restaurant by making dinner for me and my friends. This is not a paying job, but only for special events which will eventually turn into a nightly event if we get a positive response. More fine dining & exotic meals and mixed Ethnic Fusion cuisine. Are you interested to promote your restaurant? Please reply back ASAP.

There are a number of 'open mic' bars in our area, it is becoming a sad trend, and unfortunately there are enough musicians who do not respect themselves enough to play them.

A few of them have gone out of business, IMO because the public doesn't want to see a bunch of musicians get on stage, figure out what they know in common and play the same old songs in various shades of mediocrity.

One bar asked local bands to play a weekend for free. They made it seem like a contest: The band that brings the biggest crowd will get a 3 month contract. This went on until they ran out of bands that wanted to play for free, and nobody ever got hired. When he couldn't find any more bands to exploit, he got a line dance teacher to come in and play CDs and teach line dancing for free - until that failed.

Do we ask Plumbers to work for free? Carpenters? Investment Managers? Taxi Drivers? Secretaries? CEOs? Ship Captains? Doctors? Nurses? Policemen? Soldiers? Store Clerks? Technicians? Engineers? Lawyers? Sanitation Workers? News Reporters? Bridge Tenders? Schoolteachers? Social Workers? Bankers? etc. etc. -- then why expect Musicians to work for free?

Just say "No" to free gigs.

Obviously I feel very strongly about this subject.

Insights and incites by Notes

Hi Danny

I was considering whether to reply to this thread or not because I do something different and may be opening a huge can of worms.

While I would never dream of playing at a club or restaurant for free I do play at a farmers market on a Saturday morning for which I do not get paid BUT I see it more as “busking”. People give me tips, take my cards and buy my CDs. I have had two corporate gigs from those markets. Those guys Schnapps and Louise on the Jelly last night got to know my music through this market (they are personal friends but didn’t know I played).

I feel I am gaining big time by consistently playing there. They would not have a musician there if they had to pay one. The way I look at it is that I am quite lucky because all the other vendors have to pay for their stands while I just pitch and play for a couple of hours then go home. I sometimes practice the set I am going to do on the Jelly that night. I am not obliged to play every Saturday (not being paid) which leaves to free to go and do my sailing when there are regattas.

To me it is a bit like playing on the Jelly. I do it because it is good for me and I ENJOY IT. If I get tips then that is great but I am not expecting it and won’t give up if the tips don’t flow.

So for me it is a win, I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so.

Btw, the worst is when you are expected to play for free AND bring 10 friends with you. I went to an open mike the other night and the girl said she would love to invite me to the songwriters evening if I could bring 10 friends!!!!

"So for me it is a win, I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so."




Busking is not playing for free. If you're any good, you can make some bread busking. Depends on the site. Mallory Dock at Key West, Harborplace in Baltimore, The Cannery in San Francisco, and others – there are buskers making very good money. There are many buskers who travel the world performing in the street.

We've been busking for many years. We even have a battery-powered PA – mics, guitar amp, bass amp, and it sounds great. Blows people's minds to see a duo on the street with live guitar and bass and backing tracks!

And, of course, BIAB makes the best backing tracks.

Somehow, I feel like the oddball in this conversation.

I live in 1 of 18 Nursing Homes owned by the same for-profit corporation. I see nearly nothing being allocated to patient entertainment so I'm attempting an end-run around the corporation out of my love and concern for the patients who have absolutely nothing to say in budgetary matters yet deserve some quality entertainment.

I have no intention to dilute the value of any band or solo entertainer by asking friends to play here for free but, unfortunately, it comes down to free versus none.

I think entertainment money is available but is currently being diverted to beautification, plants, and outdoor detailing. They are currently doing a multimillion dollar remodeling which will provide them an excuse to cry "poverty".

So I'm left with a dilemma; To ask my countless musician friends worldwide to entertain pro bono, or, conversely, to watch the elderly patients with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Chronic Pain, Hospice (end of life) Patients, withdraw further into mental darkness without the stimulation provided by music, the only activity that utilizes 100% of the brain. I choose the former.

Perhaps a deciding factor - there is still room here for your mother!

Don,

Maybe you could ask your musical friends to play for you online, ala Street Jelly?

If we weren't on the other side of the universe, we'd come and play for sure.


Regards,

Bob

Bob, in fact some (Summer Russell and several tentative, including Danny) are coming to visit/meet me and entertain patients.

It's often been said here that there are greater rewards than money. As a theft deterrent, we are not allowed to carry cash so that even knocks out tipping. It is something best motivated by love from the abundance of a willing heart. In which case, there is no amount of money that even approaches an Alzheimer patient's smile.

I would love to meet you in person but money constrains make that highly unlikely.

Nokie Edwards (Ventures fame) was born in Oklahoma and has promised to stop by when he's in the area. Britain's nominated top female vocalist, Hayley Oliver, will visit me on her next visit to the Colonies and sing for the patients. Money is not an issue, while love is uppermost.

If I can't make money by performing I'm not going to donate my services unless it is for a bonafide fundraiser.

I have been to and played several open mics and my impression is they are there to give newbies a chance to get on stage and get some practice. Usually they are on an off night so the only crowd is the other players waiting their turn to play! Most of these same bars have paid acts on the busier nights. Seems like a win-win to me. No one is coming to the bar on an off night so the bar opens the stage to anyone who wants to get up there. The bar sells a few drinks on an off night and the noobs get some stage time.

I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper!

Ditto to that. Burbanks in Cincinnati used to have open mic blues on Wed night with a little twist. The band was paid to play, but anyone who wanted to could become the "leader of the band" for a couple of songs.

All of the hot young blues players in town would show up with their axes and jam out with a full blown band.

Beer, blues and BBQ. What more could you want? The place was always packed on Wed.

Where are you working Bugsey?

Josie,

Busking is not even close to playing for free. It is a gig and as you state you have booked other better paying gigs from it, besides you are getting tips.

What I am speaking about is the what 99% of the replies have addressed and that is the business dangles the lure of a better pay day or even stardom down the road if only you'll sacrifice your payday until he is making enough money to afford you.

Great analogies within this thread but Notes' line regarding who all gets paid at the club IMHO states it best, if they get paid why shouldn't the musicians get paid?

Of course your experience with the open mic cat and you must bring 10 people may just take the cake for the cheapest $@B I have ever heard of. This is now just another reason why I do not go to open mics.

PS: See you at your set this Saturday, you are taking the Jelly by storm.

Later,

Matt,

Great point, they have a budget for toilet paper but none for live music. Maybe because they know the paper salesman will not give them free toilet paper. LOL

Later,

I agree totally regarding your statement about busking and will offer another great site/sites . . . anywhere within the French Quarter in New Orleans.

Later,

All great points Herb.

Thanks,

Notes,

Nothing left in the shadows within your points Sir all in all some very good guidelines to follow.

Thanks,

so nice of you to ask, Chuckles! just last week we got a gig in your neck of the woods for $300!

No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.

Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.


I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.

Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.

Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.

I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.

Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.

So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free.

There was a time, not long ago, when clubs used to hire bands 6 nights a week, and paid them on the off nights knowing that they will make that money back and then some on the hot nights.

By holding an open mic night on an off night, they can avoid paying the band on those nights, and take home more money on the hot nights.

So playing at an open mic night not only exploits the freebie musician, it does hurt the income of the professional musician.

For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?

If you are not OK with that, please do unto others.

Insights and incites by Notes

excellent comparison, Notes!

"It's not work. It's music."



I'll try to remember that when I'm loading the amps and PA into the trailer.

A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing?

Actually, it's not.



And in the case of most OM's, there is someone getting paid – the person who provides the PA and backline. They're just getting a fraction of what a band would get; and most of them are musicians themselves. Rather cannibalistic, no?

Plus one from me

this is one reason why I think the online busking sites are part of the new paradigm. Talented people, regardless of their age, can get set up ONCE and perform for pay without ever having to schlep gear... whick kinda puts it back in the realm of fun more than the realm of work.

There are more of these sites appearing all the time... you could play the entire circuit, and it would be like touring but without the hassle. Since these sites are spread all over the place, each having its own core group of participants and audience, so especially if you make it known that you have CDs for sale, its a good way to make your music known to a lot of people without going through a middle man who wants a cut.

Individuals or bands can perform on these sites.

baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians!

That's true Pat. It's a lot less stressful than actually playing out. I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous.

Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc.

Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it.

I agree 100%. The average workin' person would have to kick it into a higher gear in order to pour as much effort into his/her job as the average musician pours into his.

still.. I hate that nobody ever applauds when I make a turbine blade at my day job... ;-(

+1

Don,

1st of all you are "in no way" are diluting the pay or worth of anyone, much less musicians. This conversation was started because of so many restaurants, bars and coffee shops using working musicians to ring their registers with no pay to the musician, just promises.

Regarding Budgets: Not sure about yours but nearly all nursing homes do have an entertainment budget. However it is up to the entertainment director and management to choose how it is spent, and the good ones spend it on what their clients like. I have seen that entertainment budgets are spent on everything from live entertainment to field trips and even shopping trips to Walmart.

For instance in my area it varies market to market, i.e. the live entertainments for nursing homes and retirement facilities budgets for the New Orleans and Gulf Coast area budget for live entertainment runs 75.00 - 125.00. With the nursing homes being on the lower side of that scale, simply because they have smaller budgets than the mega retirement facilities who get pretty big bucks for their apartments, with some even having a required buyin before you can move in. The shows being booked, I might add includes shows from musicians, puppeteers and comedians.

While further up the road a few miles the budgets seem to be set a little lower, but likewise the acts in this market tend to charge less for their product than the rest of the state. Point is many musicians limit their paydays because of many reasons only know to them, I can just speculate.

With this said I do know we will be rocking your joint on June 27th! and I would "gladly pay out of my pocket" for the "privileged" of doing so . . . might even sing an Irish tune or two. But you may have to buy me a drink for that . . . lol

Take care partner,

John,

Just FYI . . . I would love to work live musicians on every gig, and yes would take less pay for many reasons. First of all I do not need the money, secondly I grew up playing with other musicians.

But considering my age, the type of music I love to play and how that would relate with the age and type of musicians I would have knocking on my door as a result of a Graig's list ad, I will choose to go with the backing tracks every-time. So for me anyway, the thought of being able to work cheaper never enters into the thought process on the road to decision making.

Later,

Danny, thanks for clarifying. I couldn't see myself "biting the hand" and would never repay your wonderful kindnesses in such a manner. It brought food for thought, however, and I'll be especially careful not to hurt my fellow musicians (remembering my 40+ years of paying my dues).

About all that I can promise in the "beverage" category is a bottomless flow of great restaurant coffee and about 6 flavors of fruit punch. No, don't you dare spike it! You'd see crutches, canes, walkers, and wheelchairs go flying to the dumpsters. lol

You've been my cyber buddy for several years and I look forward to meeting you in person.

Nurse Amy and hubby, Loren, are clearing their calendars so as not to miss you. Loren really squinted an ear when you started pickin' and Amy is extremely easy to love.

The gig will be something that you will treasure forever, Danny, and my thank yous seem grossly inadequate but thank you again from the bottom o' me wee Oyrish 'art.

Danny,

I understand completely! And I think it is just fine to use backing tracks if it works for you! My only point was musicians who use backing tracks to keep their costs down while also complaining that clubs do open mics (or similar things) to cut costs is the pot calling the kettle black! For the record, I have no problem with folks who perform for free or folks who charge an arm and a leg if they can get it! Likewise I have no problem with a club owner bringing in free talent if the talent is willing to do it. One thing that sometimes gets forgotten in these conversations is many (most?) club owners/managers are not making a lot of money either!

Really? Based on what? Your vast experience in clubs?


Hilarious.


Bugsey, you slay me.

Personal disclaimer:

Let me also add that there are exceptions to all rules, even the ones I make up in my mind, tongue planted firmly in cheek.

For instance if was aware of a friend or anyone trying to save a struggling restaurant or bar and he/she thought maybe live music could save the joint, I'd be the 1st in line to offer my services. I never have painted with brushes that wide.

I think we all know the examples I am "painting" when I say business's who want free entertainment.

Later,

well, Chuckles, not much of a challenge, you seem fairly easy to slay!

We had some bass bins that were nicknamed "The Beasts" due to their size and weight, and were best handled by at least 2 people. Yeah, trucking in the gear is a hard job. Our band had a road crew but we often helped out in the setup and sometimes the load out. But even our road crew loved the job and loved the music. The head roadie even told me it wasn't work to him. It was a passion.

But why do you do it? Is the reason you do it to simply for a paycheck....Simply to make money at the end of the night? Then yes... you had a job.... and yes, it was a hard job to do and it was work to you.

But.....

If you did it because, when the lights come up, the long hours of practice, rehearsals, and arranging and getting it right meant nothing compared to the precious and amazing few minutes of time you were on stage playing that song flawlessly, because the music was inside you and needed a way out, because you wanted to share the pure joy you felt from the music, because there was nothing else in the world you would rather do, because the cheers and applause of the crowd meant everything to you, because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician.

Trust me when I say I have known people who could play and sing who were of both kinds...... some were there because singing a song beat working at Walmart or digging a foundation footing, and there were others who where there because of the passion, and there was music that needed to be expressed.

A wise man once said: If you love what you do and you then go and do it, you will never work a day in your life.

OK, two different view points from me. The first view point being in some agreement with this :-
Surely we have seen the one where the bar, club, or restaurant owner gives it the "How much? that is a lot of money!"
The musician spokesman for the band then says, "OK get six plumbers to work for four hours on a Sunday night and we will do it for half their price!"

The second viewpoint being :-
Now for a fully amateur musician playing in a typical UK brass band, it is amateur status so no individual pay to any player in the band. The band charges £300 to £400 for a two part concert lasting around the four hour mark and that band gets regular work as far as a brass band goes.
Which in reality will be between four to maybe fifteen paying jobs in twelve months. (Depending on the band and its reputation)
In between that the band enters contests where the band actually has to pay a small fee to enter. If the band is any good such as the band I recently left, good results on the contest stage means money prizes, and depending on the contest, venue, and organisation, the prizes can be as little as £100 for first prize with lower amounts for second or third place, with often a third place being nothing more than a cup to put on the trophy shelf.
Other contests can of course give a first prize of as much as £1000. However, many contest entering bands don't get anything more than a piece of paper telling them their fourth, fifth or even tenth place was due to what the adjudicator found was faulty in their performance. Why do the contesting? because good results, due to good hard work from all players means a higher reputation, which in turn gets better paid concert or other work.
Whatever the amount of cash a brass band accumulates over say a twelve month period, that money will be divided among many claimants, rent, power and heat for the rehearsal venue, new or replacement band uniforms, new or replacement instruments, as although most small instrument players can afford to buy their own, the price of a new double Bb bass tuba and the other large instruments is way out of reach of most pockets, so the band itself has to foot the bill for replacement of worn out or too badly damaged instruments. There are of course many other small to large costs too, and for some bands a small retaining fee is paid to the MD which may be only a few hundred a year.
Where does the time go in between the paying jobs after playing the contests?
Mostly on rehearsals twice a week for two to three hours each night just to get the polish on the next contest piece, or to get the seven to fifteen pieces of music fully up to speed and as good as possible for the concert.
As I said, all amateur players who do it for the love of it, the only man or woman who gets some pay is as I said the MD and that is usually only a token fee.
Bearing in mind some players do seek out paid work where trumpet, trombone, or other orchestral, jazz, and other brass work will pay them individually, but they have to be very good players as individuals before they can gain that work.
Most, even though may be good enough, don't look for that work, mainly because of lack of time or they just don't need it.

Just a different viewpoint on the discussion about musicians and being paid to be one.

Somehow I often see comparisons to BiaB and backing tracks as putting musicians out of work.

I play in a duo with backing tracks. The places I play would never hire and have never hired a 4 or more piece band. In most cases the "stage" isn't big enough.

Put the duo in a club where a 4-7 piece band normally plays and it doesn't work. Both the sound and the visual impact is lost in a big room.

So backing tracks can make a duo sound better, but they aren't putting anyone out of work.

We worked the cruise ships for 3 years. We played in the small lounge where duos have always played. The 7 piece band played in the bigger lounge, the orchestra played in the biggest room, and the single played in the piano bar.

We play in a couple of yacht and country clubs. They have always used duos for the regular dinner/dance nights, and when it comes to the Commodore's Ball, or the Change of Watch party, we never get the gig, they hire 5 or more pieces.

We play every Tuesday at a marina with a deck that perhaps fits 50 people - tops. Since it's outdoors, the overflow people bring lawn chairs or sit at picnic tables in the sun. If a 4 piece band with drums were to set up on the deck, they would lose the seating for a dozen or more people.

We played in a hotel that had a big room downstairs and a small room upstairs. The big room held over 100 people and they hired 4 or 5 piece bands. We played upstairs in the small room where we huddled in a corner and they put down one of those 10X10 feet portable dance floors. People had dinner and danced after dinner, but it wasn't the singles bar downstairs by any stretch of the imagination.

In the 1970s I played in a duo with a keyboard player and a drum machine. We competed with the 2 guitar and a drum machine duos. We never competed with a 4 piece band and still do not.

The duos today sound fuller than the old-fashioned 2 musicians and a drum machine duo, but they do not put anyone out of work.

Playing for free does put people out of work. If the freebie person wasn't there, there would be no entertainment and the club would have to hire someone to keep the audience entertained.

Hige difference.

So for all of you people who play for free, think about how you would feel if your boss gave you a day off each week without pay because someone, perhaps less talented than you, would do your job for free.

And then think about whether you want to do that to a fellow musician or not.

There are plenty of non-commercial places you can play for free. When I was young we used to set up in public parks, someone's living room (we even invited friends who would bring food and drink), volunteer for a worthy charity, busk in a public place, and so on. But please don't take the food out of another musician's mouth. It's getting more and more difficult to make a living playing music, please don't make it worse.

We do charities, and we play yearly at the Veteran's Administration hospital. It's a 60 mile drive from our house, the parking is terrible, schlepping the gear is a pain, but when we are done, the warm reception and the friendly chats with the wheelchair bound former soldiers make it all worth while.

That's much better than playing for free while the club owner, bartender, wait staff, dishwasher, janitor, bookkeeper, host/hostess, and everybody else is making money from your talents.

Playing for free is pirating gigs from small time musicians - and that's worse than pirating a rich musician's CD.

Insights and incites by Notes

"If you did it because, when the lights come up, the long hours of practice, rehearsals, and arranging and getting it right meant nothing compared to the precious and amazing few minutes of time you were on stage playing that song flawlessly, because the music was inside you and needed a way out, because you wanted to share the pure joy you felt from the music, because there was nothing else in the world you would rather do, because the cheers and applause of the crowd meant everything to you, because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician."





Never heard such horse pucky in my life. “...when the lights come up...”? Really?


“... because the music was inside you and needed a way out”.

Jeez...........


We've never had a “road crew” with roadies or groupies or yellow M&M's and Dom Pérignon on our rider, but then, we're obviously not at your level. Of course, we've only been doing it all over the country for over 40 years, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.


“...because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician.”

“Passion”? Man, that's pure poetry.

I think "open mics" and "writer's nights" where folks get 15 minute slots to play new material, practice their performing skills and such probably should not be drawn into the "putting working musicians out of work" discussion. But you can if you want to.

Of course, one night for open mic, a couple nights of karaoke, a couple of nights for the DJ and a couple of sport nights and then you are in trouble!

Re: Passion v.s. Job. It's both. Bills have to be paid, rent/mortgage,food,car payments/upkeep etc. Of course if you're independently wealthy then none of that matters! Later, Ray

"So listen up kiddies...if you play bass or drums (or any other instrument) I won't hire you because I have software that does your job for me. But don't you even think about going to a club and playing for cheap because then you are a pirate who is impacting my ability to work there!"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moron

this is goin' on my business cards!! (and maybe on a car magnet too)

I have never seen a simpler, more succinct statement to illustrate the disconnect between how people appropriate value to musicians as opposed to any other craftsman

this isn't just a musician thing, BTW... Bayer aspirin still gets a premium price for their product in spite of the fact that there are many off brands of competing generic aspirin.

But they advertise. Ads of that type perform the function called "product differentiation", in which they make the claim of being superior in some way (safer, more controlled, whatever)

1) People won't spend more to get the same quality.. but they WILL spend more for higher quality.

2) Most consumers don't know how to tell the difference.

3) it is a sad truth that most people simply accept what they're told

4) so start an ad campaign of product differentiation by telling the public you are better than the rest.

5) you DO advertise, right?

I know this is a serious thread, but I can't help wondering if Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler don't have some culpability in all of this.

'Money for nothin' and your....'

Hey I found you a replacement for that $300 gig...trouble is this one is $300/month!

http://goo.gl/E5TPra

this song touches on several different recent threads...

product differentiation...
the choice to self promote instead of accepting a lesser deal from the studios...

Ani DiFranco: "the Million You Never Made"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTWJ37DAhoY

caution: contains at least one F bomb

Powerful piece of writing Pat.

Thanks for the post.

Later,

Wow..... somebody's having a bad day......


Take a few seconds and watch this short video......


Good advice


feel better now?

Actually, I'm having a great day. Just booked two more gigs in June. No roadies, though.

Every person on this thread has put some folks out of work by using home recording software. If you bought your own mic, pre-amp, sound card, midi input device, etc. and are making demos, you put some recording engineers out of work, just like we put photographers out of work and graphic designers out of work, etc. etc.

We created other demand for other types of jobs to provide that gear, but the reality is that technology changes culture.

Those people filling the open mics, a good portion of them now do home recording - probably well enough to sound decent to themselves, and 15 years ago, the same type of person would have never considered an open mic.

The consumer culture expects music for free now.

I'm not saying any of this is right, but this is probably a situation which applies to everyone here - pointing the first finger points 3 right back at you.

To all of you using your own PA in your live gigs, you put a local FOH engineer out of work for that time.

Anything where we automate something on our own, do our own oil changes, do any kind of work that was a paid position for someone else, we put those folks out of work to some extent. I recharge my A/C systems on my vehicles - something that almost always used to require a mechanic with the fancy gauge set. For $35 you can get a reusable user-friendly gauge and R134 refill at your local auto parts store, and the refill cans are $10 at Big Lots. Lasts me about a month in my son's beater vehicle. Yeah, I am putting the local mechanic out of work, but I also create work for the company making the $35 kit.

There's many layers to the onion of the image on the first page of this thread.

Well said Scott.

solidarity forces an unnatural continuation of something that doesn't work as well as it once did.

Lone wolves leaving the pack to try something different will tend to get results commensurate with the work and thought they put into it.

Those who don't prepare well won't have better luck even if they try something different.

Those who do stand a better chance of finding a niche that works for them.

Nobody is entitled to a job playing music, so they can't be cheated out of something that isn't their right.

The reason why guys like Notes and 90dB still get gigs is because they have made their niche and are enjoying the benefits of having done so

If that approach still worked like it did 30 years ago, there wouldn't be a problem with people working odd scenarios trying to find something new that works.

As I see it, its MOSTLY about how different people adapt to change. The people working for free aren't causing the problem, they are trying to adapt to it. The real problem is caused by a variety of other factors, and those factors won't change just because people stop playing for free.

If anything, they may be keeping some venues open... I envision a time when nobody offers live music anymore because everybody is home streaming netflix

Scott,

I'm sorry, but from my perspective, your arguments just don't hold water. Take this statement, for example:

“Every person on this thread has put some folks out of work by using home recording software. If you bought your own mic, pre-amp, sound card, midi input device, etc. and are making demos, you put some recording engineers out of work ...”

I started home recording in 1979 with the original Tascam Portastudio 144. Why? Because I couldn't afford studio time in Southern California to cut demos. Would I have loved to hire Tom Dowd or George Massenberg to record me? Oh yeah. Was I putting them out of work by recording on my little 4-track? Absolutely not.

“To all of you using your own PA in your live gigs, you put a local FOH engineer out of work for that time.”

We play small bars, restaurants and hotel lounges. These places don't have 'FOH engineers'. They have bartenders and a wait staff. If we play at an outdoor Tiki bar, should we hire a 'FOH' engineer to run our little PA with SOS's? It's absurd.

Danny's OP stated that:

“I see and hear of many musicians falling into the trap (well I think it is a trap) set by club owners/,managers who (again in my opinion) are playing on every musician's "need to perform" gene. The offer goes something like this, "you come in and build up a crowd and then we will talk money".”

Who is being put out of work in this scenario? The professional musician who can't afford to play for free – that's who.


“There's many layers to the onion of the image on the first page of this thread.”

In my (admittedly biased) view, the premise of the image is accurate. People who play for free in formerly paying venues are killing live music.




Regards,

Bob

The thing for me is I play in rooms where 2 musicians have traditionally played. Whether it was a keyboard/guitar, 2 guitars, guitar and bass, and mostly with at least a drum machine.

So now with my backing tracks we still have 2 guitars, but one guitarist also plays synth, and the other also plays sax, flute, and synth.

So tell me who are we putting out of work with backing tracks?

Nobody.

The music two people can make just got fuller.

Thankfully we have a lot of work, but I have talented friends who have had hard times because of the freebie musicians.

And yes, DJ, Karaoke and other things have contributed too. There is no argument there. But musicians taking the bread out of other musician's mouths is something different to me.

You can argue your point until you are blue in the face, but so far, you haven't done a thing to change my mind. If a free musician is working in a place where all the other help is getting paid, he/she is replacing a musician who used to get paid and pirating his job.

The biggest thing putting musicians out of work is TV, but that's another thread entirely.

Notes

Bob, the 90 dB Bob,

I'm not saying that we made the George Massenburgs of the world lose their jobs, but the advent of the use of home DAW software and even TASCAM portastudios in the day, did to some extent start the process of the local "Golden Tones Studio" mom & pop studios for local bands to record their stuff - we set the stage for the mediocre folks to eventually be out of work.

Same with photography and professional photographers.

Same with typists.

Same with videography.

BTW, "She's Already Made Up Her Mind" by Lyle Lovett and engineered by George Massenburg is in my top 10 recordings of recording as an art form. Listen to it with the finest set of headphones that you can afford in the quietest room. The ride cymbals are glorious.

We don't have to agree. Heck, the advent of the DAW put people like PG INTO work, so it's not always in the 'loss' column. It shifts.

The folks at Focusrite, PreSonus, etc. LOVE the fact that we do home recording. We gave them jobs.

I still submit that anytime we take on a role that has in the past been paid in our ability to do it because of technology/affordability of the technology that lets us do it ourselves, we 'shift' the paying job to the provider of the technology and away from the person using the previous generation of technology. Perhaps that's a better way to say it than forcing someone to lose their job.

my hope is that as more and more really good single and duo acts hit the streets, that it will once again be cost effective for the average business to offer live music.

Its a variation on the old adage that supply and demand changes the price, but opportunity is located at the intersection of price and demand.

In other words, there is ALREADY a demand for live music, and if the price is right businesses will spring for it.

The more businesses that offer live music, even at a lower price, the more opportunity exists for anybody who is prepared to accept those gigs.

Once again, this is partly why Notes and 90dB are still playing.. they've adapted to change already and scaled down to an act that businesses are willing to pay for... and they have a QUALITY act, which differentiates them from the amateurs who try to get their foot in the door by playing for free

Very well said Scott!

Spot on Pat!

If someone is willing to play cheaper than you then you need to convince club owners why you are worth your price or lower it! Free Market 101. Why all this angst about something that is routine American business practice?

If there is a demand for your product and you can sell it go for it. If I want to give my product away free for the joy of doing so that's my business and I'll do it if I want to. Nobody in my opinion should be telling others what to do or not do. ( really enjoying this thread ). Cheers.

I think you've hit on something here as well Pat - with the comment that once things become 'cost effective again'....

Another thing that is driving down the available 'disposable income' for restaurant owners to pay live musicians, is the hold-down on meal prices vs. cost of ingredients.

We probably all know folks who run restaurants. $1 burgers at McD's and elsewhere also shunt the expectation of what one should pay for a meal when eating out. This in turn limits some restauranteur's ability to have income available to pay for live musicians, with all the work it is for them to vet out the crap from the good. All of the folks that I've known over the years running restaurants eventually try to find other work. It's a huge pile of work and worry for most, with not too high of financial gain in return; again for most. Much easier to pay for an XM Radio subscription to play over the low-voltage speaker system in house.

The bar side of things may also be similar, I'm not as familiar with that. I can say that one thing that I know from my contacts at MillerCoors, is that the youth of today have less allegiance to anything, including their beer brands and preferences. The big breweries are starting to struggle with all of the craft brews coming from every hole in the wall brewery in every town of semi-significant size. A buddy co-owns a hipster loving/loved craft brew, third wave coffee, craft wine place here in COS, and it's HOPPING - filled with a good 30-50 people in a space that comfortably will not hold much more. His highest revenue day is shockingly low. Less than 1k$ You read that right. It's a hangout more than a thoroughfare of paying customers. This is what the hipster crowd is used to with Starbucks and their comfy overstuffed chairs and whatnot as the model.

Allegiance on the down trend, streaming music according to your preferences the norm, 1$ burgers setting the low bar for food income to the restaurant owner, less 'regular' customers as drinkers, etc. etc. and I would say the trend does not look good for 'cost effective again' to make the demand rise.

Which is exactly why I wouldn't try either pro musician, nor restaurant owner as my gig. It's fear, really - If I was honest about it.

So, even though we may not agree, tip of the hat to the Bobs and anyone else making a living at performing music. I sincerely hope that it provides you sustenance and a purpose that is enjoyable - which is all that any of us can ask for.

Those of us who remember BB (Before Band In A Box) will also recall that excellent backing tracks were coming of age some 15-20 years ago. The argument dates back even further when guitarists began to attempt one-uping Les Paul by bringing a reel-to-reel deck with their recorded harmony parts on it.

Whenever a newer technology presents itself, someone is going to attempt applying it to his music. It's the nature of the beast!

Enter Chet Atkins - he invented countless circuits to enhance his playing, not to intentionally displace other musicians.

I hope never to hear Dr Gannon accused of hurting or displacing musicians be designing a wonderful "tool" such as BIAB.

I seem to recall, in the not too distant past, when the habitual naysayers said similar negative things about MIDI. The list goes on.

If using "tools" makes us lesser musicians then don't listen to most commercial music out there today. Some horrendous, some excellent, but don't vilify the designers/toolmakers.

Taking this into the broader business market with a slightly different example....

I'm in the security business. I install and service burglary & fire alarm system among other things. I typically install custom systems for folks who are well off and live in nice houses in the better parts of the town and country area around here. I don't give anything away. My prices tend to be among the higher ones if there are multiple bids.

I sell basing on the quality of the equipment, the neatness of the install, and the service after the sale.

I am competing with national companies who practically give the gear away for free to get the customer's account. I don't install nearly as many new security systems in homes now (compared to 22 years ago) because many people are only concerned with the price. That is the reality. Another reality is the equipment I sell costs me more at wholesale than the entire install (including labor) from the nationals. I can't match that deal unless I work at a loss.....and that business model doesn't work well if you want to eat.

The plain and simple fact of the matter is this. That is the reality of the business environment I find myself in, in the midst of trying to run a profitable business . I can not force my competitors to charge a fair and equitable price for their gear and labor. If I had not adapted to this changing business environment, made plans to survive and even prosper in it, I would have been out of business years ago.

I saw the changes coming, realized there was nothing I could do to turn it around, and so I found niche markets that were under served and didn't lend themselves well to the cookie cutter mass marketing approach. As a result, I'm still in business 23 years later.....and still making a very comfortable living working with things I enjoy and providing a much needed service. As of today, there is no one else in a 3 state area that does what I do. Yes, my niche is that unique.

So....simply equate that to the music business. I can't tell you what to do or how to do it.....that's your job to figure out. But the question is..... could you find some aspect of the music scene that is not being served by everyone else? Can you stand out from the crowd? If so, and with proper marketing, you can make a fairly comfortable income from music no matter who else is charging what or playing for free.

If you think about it.... nothing is really new now. Back in the day, (35 years ago) there were clubs that offered low price gigs..... $75 or so for the band per night on the weekend..... at the same time, there were also clubs that offered $400 vs 75% of the door. Good bands could make upwards of $1000/night at places like that. Where you and your band played was determined by your skill level more than anything else.

Very well put Herb.

In the late 60’s I was one of the few guitarists in my area that could read music. As I needed money I joined a wedding group and that proved to be my niche in music. While my friends were practicing 2-3 nights a week then playing in bars for $20 on the weekends I was just showing up and playing the gig for a lot more. I eventually ended up fronting my own wedding band. During the slow times we played at the American Legions, VFWs, Elk’s clubs and other private clubs and we were booked for many years. Also we were still playing for many years after most all my bar-playing friends stopped playing. The DWI laws had little effect on weddings!

So I was a successful weekend warrior.

As Herb said find your niche in music, be really good at it and you can make some decent money.

I've gone from playing clubs, to playing concerts, back to playing clubs, to playing cruise ships, and now to playing Yacht Clubs, Country Clubs, and other private and semi-private clubs, and that's why the freebie musicians don't affect what I do.

I remember when I was young, the older guys told me that once they started playing Country Clubs, they never wanted to go back to playing bars. Now that I'm an older guy, I found out what they meant and other than my every Tuesday at the marina (a loose fun, no-pressure gig), I find I'd rather play those gigs.

I've made the bulk of my living playing music for most of my life. I'm at the age where others retire, but I can't envision a life without playing music, so I have no plans to retire. I just get a little pickier about which jobs I take.

It's a lot tougher to make a living at playing music than it was when I was young. Every hotel from a Holiday Inn on up had a band playing 6 nights a week. Single bars had bands and any bar with a TV in it was probably just a corner tavern with a dozen or so bar stools. Plus TV had grainy pictures and very tinny sounds so to hear good live music, you had to go hear a band.

All that has changed, the number of places and nights that hire bands have shrunk and people who play for free are taking away much of what is left.

I'm glad that I grew up when I did, or else I might have had to have day jobs all my life.

Notes

Herb, this is an excellent summary of the discussion.

Change happens.

Those who don't adapt lose out

Even those who adapt must adapt intelligently, because change takes time and money, and unless you're changing in the right ways you can improve yourself right out of business.

Change continues to happen

Yesterdays adaptation may not get you to retirement. As the paradigm changes, the adaptation also needs to "follow the buffalo"

What worked yesterday probably won't work today, and what what works today probably won't work tomorrow.

I think one advantage of a forum like this is that it brings together many perspectives from all over the world so we can get a better overview of the business climate, and form more realistic adaptation strategies based on what has stopped working, what is still working (but at a reduced state of effectiveness) and what seems to be working in new ways than before

Yep! You can complain about what is happening or you can make something happen!

bottom line, I think there will ALWAYS be a market for music... we just need to figure out what works today.

around here...

Weddings continue to hire live bands

public events are big consumers of live music

music festivals are all over the place

rest homes are filling up as the population ages, and they have a need (and usually a budget) for entertainment

There is the emerging live streaming phenomenon, with an ever increasing number of sites and exposure to new audiences

it has never been easier to make your music available for sale online

and for the small act that advertises, there are private parties all the time for birthdays, graduations, reunions, retirements etc... if the price is right, people love live music

That's off the top of my head.. y'all can probably think of a lot more.

Back to the OP:

For those of you who disparage Danny, Bob and I for lamenting the current state of the live music business, I would submit that you would have a different perspective if you were actually playing out these days. Not thirty years ago – today.

Find a “niche”? We've all done that. “Make something happen”? We're doing just that every day. Should we ignore a serious threat to the way we make our livings?


“If I want to give my product away free for the joy of doing so that's my business and I'll do it if I want to.”

That statement perfectly illustrates the problem addressed in the OP.
Try handing out free hot dogs at a pro ballpark, or free beers in someone's bar. Let me know how that works out for you.

It's not a 'product' if it has no value. In my experience, people who give their musical product away for free, have valued it correctly.

If you play live anywhere, you need to sell merchandise. In addition to the gig, supplement with CD's, T-shirts and whatever else you can sell and make a profit.

In a former band, I was the only one that had money to spend on "other things" so when we decided to start selling merchandise, I was the only one that money to invest. The other guys had a standing offer to buy in at any point they wanted. No one ever did.

As it turned out, I ran the t-shirts, bumper stickers and other merch that we sold. This was back before the days of CD's and home studios becoming popular. there was no money to do studio time and sell cassettes, and we were a cover band.

However, I did buy some t-shirts and sold them at gigs. There was quite a few nights when I walked out of a club having made good money playing 4 sets and having made even more than that from selling shirts and bumper stickers.

I hope my comments haven't come across as being disparaging.. far from it, I have nothing but respect for y'all. All of my comments are just objective summary of what I see coupled with some projections about the direction current trends might take.

Your experience is real-world, and that pretty much goes uncontested.

There are a lot of different opinions about how to manage a music endeavor, and what you are advocating is not universally accepted ... especially among those who see music more as art than commerce...

but once you consider music as a business, its hard to ignore the significant additional revenue that can be generated by merch. Consider all the spinoff sales of toys, endorsements, costumes etc from just one Star Wars movie.

Once you get the public's attention, it doesn't hurt to ask them to buy into your endeavor. As long as they're free to say NO, you have a no-pressure opportunity, and there will always be some people who are willing to spend money in order to be a part of your success.

We're selling 90 dB T-Shirts (Made in China) and 90 dB bumper stickers (also made in China) - place your order NOW!!!


For 1st time buyers, we're also throwing in an official Floyd jane beer koozie!


Send cash to:

90 dB Merch
PO Box 3567
Frog Swallow, Ark.
71635

anything with the name brand FLOYD JANE should eventually be a collector's item...

its just a matter of time before he's famous
;-)

Thanks Pat.


GET IT NOW !!!!

The Collectors Edition Floyd jane Beer Koozie!!!!!!

Yes, you too can keep your suds cool in one of these beautiful koozies featuring the likeness of the Famous Floyd jane!


ORDER TODAY !!!! Supplies are unlimited.

Thanks floyd. This boat sure steers straighter when we both pull together!


ORDER NOW!!!!!!!

THEY ARE GOING FAST !!!!!!

if you want respect then don't disrespect. calling folks "bottom feeders" and "wannabes" and "pirates" is quite disrespectful.


and if their value is so low how are they a threat to you?

"G'wan kid, ya bodda me!"

then my work here is done!

We started selling merchandise because people.... the fans, were asking us if we had or planned to sell shirts and other things.

Just like the big acts of today.... the fans we had were a loyal bunch and followed us from town to town.

Yes, even the big boys and girls in the business of music know that the music is a "loss leader" to sell tickets to concerts and t-shirts, posters, 8x10 glossies, and more to the fans at the shows. For them , the money isn't really in the music, it's in the merch and endorsements.

Sad as that may seem and I'm sure some folks will call that a "sell out" to the money..... but hey, that's the reality of the business world.

Make hay while the sun shines. Many of the artists will not have long and prosperous careers. Ever watch the show about the rock stars of yesterday....I think it was called "What are they doing now?" Once the ride is over, it's very likely over for good.

We don't have any fans. Just drunks.

Another thought: My son-in-law owned a better-quality furniture factory in Washington State. One day the buyers from Sears walked in, quite unexpectedly, and, with a bare minimum of dickering, bought his entire production. That meant canceling all open orders from their bread and butter accounts, the small Mom and Pop dealers. Now, Sears started playing hardball and dictating prices. They were ruined, driven out of business. Their customer base was gone.

Pat,

With the exception of weddings you just described my music. Heck I can sometime be found at a car dealership playing music to back "THE GREATEST CAR SALE OF ALL TIME".

PS: I was shouting at you just like he TV commercials do, sorry.

Later,

LOL, sometimes those are the best.

Later,

I'd buy some of these if I could afford them.

PS; Floyd I was honored to have you at my Streetjelly show my friend.

Later,

You missed your calling - graphic designers of Nashville, lookout!

Hi Joanne ...

I partially agree ... more so than not.

I have played numerous performances for "free" ... meaning the event organizer/promoter/manger paid me nothing. I made a few dollars from tips ... a form of busking, I guess. But, here's my approach to such things:

Perhaps I could have made $50.00 - $100.00 doing a pay gig. But probably not or I wouldn't have had that time spot available for the "free" gig! The advertising I get from those performances can be valuable and is much cheaper than buying print/audio/visual ads. People find out when and where I'm playing live gigs and often come out to hear the "pay" performances. I've also sold a little music at these "free" performances. You just have to be smart about when and where you do it.

However, some folks will say they would never play/perform without some sort of guaranteed compensation as they see it as being "used", or some similar term. And that's cool. I just see some of those "free" gigs as advertising opportunities and getting more name recognition. I guess there's no wrong or right ... just depends on the approach and attitude of the performer. Good luck with your music!

Alan

Try going into that very same venue and instead of giving away free music, try giving away free drinks to the customers and see how long you last.

When I was a kid, we tried to sell some pineapples we grew in front of the local Kwik Check grocery store. The manager came out and gave us a lecture telling us he would rather not call the police to get us to stop.

Back almost to the topic...or at least the sub-subject of adaption.

Yes, you have to adapt to the ever-changing music business. When I was young, a number of old guys were waiting for the big-bands to come back, and refused to play any of that "rack and roll".

When we started playing Country Clubs, even Elvis Presley songs were too recent for the audience, now it's too old for most, and they want to hear Baby Boomer music, Disco and even a few new ones like Blurred Lines.

Rewind a little: I used to play in 4 to 6 or 7 piece rock bands - that was what horn players did. But I had the guitarist and bass player show me how to get around on their instruments, and doubled on a few songs. When we backed Freddie "Boom Boom" Cannon, he heard our group and asked me to play bass because he thought I was better than the bass player (I wasn't better, just picked up things quicker).

That served me well because in the psychedelic era, nobody wanted to hear saxophones for a while so I played bass for a living.

When we were having too many personnel problems in bands to keep working steadily, I decided to go to the duo market by making my own backing tracks. I did it first by recording the tracks on a Teac 4 track reel-to-reel and mixing to cassette. Then came MIDI sequencers and that made my job easier. No, it didn't put anyone out of work as we played smaller venues.

You need to adapt to the changing market, but how can you adapt at people who give away what you are selling? Even if the quality isn't nearly as good, it's free.

True musicians need to play, and music needs an audience. Many musicians would hate it if people started pirating their CDs and other merchandise or stealing the songs they wrote. Then why is it OK to steal another musician's livelihood by taking his job away and playing for free?

If you live by the "Do unto others", or the "Thou shalt not steal" ethics, it can't be OK.

So here's my suggestion. The next time you go out to play for free in a commercial venue, take along a cooler full of cold beer and give away free beers to the customers.

Insights and incites by Notes

MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................free beer............

Notes, you are entirely too logical!

As Jack Benny would say: "Now, cut that out!" (oot, in Canada).

This is a key point in the discussion, and a point well worth repeating, which is why I quoted it.

because, in America (and most other western countries), pirating CDs and stealing songs is against the law. however, playing for free is NOT against the law. in fact, selling cheaper or even giving stuff away, is a classic American business tradition!


Baloney! As noted above playing for free is perfectly legal. If playing for free violates your personal code of ethics then don't do it. But your code of ethics only applies to you...not the rest of us!

This is an excellent point. It stands up well to logical scrutiny, but not to practical application. The fact is that establishments have the clout to make you stop competing against them on their own turf, but musicians have no clout to crack down on other musicians who undermine their livelihood by playing for free.

Which puts the scenario squarely back in the realm of change that we can't control, we can only adapt to it.

or not

And, Notes, to me you are the poster child of adaptation... at every change point along the way you have accurately sized up the situation and taken whatever path gave you an advantage. Most of my current opinions about the viability of music going forward are based on your posts here. Not everybody has the insight to see past what is currently true and focus on what COULD be true... but you are one who has that ability.

Back in Olden Times, no club would even think of hiring a musician who wasn't a member in good standing of our Local 77 AFM (Philly).


They wouldn't dare. The wise guys who ran the union were very persuasive.

yeah, whatever happened to the musician's union... you don't even hear about it anymore!

They are actually doing some excellent work behind the scenes. However, I still wince every year when I pay my dues.

I believe it was Adam Smith who first brought the idea of the law of supply and demand into the public eye, and how this determines price.

The value of something is a fickle entity beholden to the public's willingness to pay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

I live in Colorado now, because I had to succumb to this law and it's true impact on the area I moved from. Partially because of the public's decades old move from locally made and engineered automobiles, to those engineered overseas and chiefly built there, a decades long version of the supply/demand (amongst other factors - let me just put that out there) reduced demand for American engineered vehicles.

Most people not living in the midwest really have no idea what their decisions to not purchase an american engineered vehicle did to the midwest economy. GM and the others even killed the idea of having to pay any kind of finance charges to pay for vehicles, with the Keep America Rolling campaign immediately following 9/11, where they introduced zero percent financing. Yes, this kept the metal rolling off the line and prevented economic meltdown in the midwest, but it also was a tectonic shift in the mindset of the buying public as it pertained to price and so forth. The final meltdown would occur just 8 years later, when the lending market went bye-bye, and in about a 30 day period, the lease options for vehicles nearly disappeared. GM lost access to 40% of their customer base that they had trained into leasing as the preferred method to finance the use of a car, just about overnight. Law of supply and demand still central to the story. It always was, and always will be a driving factor.

There are going to be more and more people willing to play music in front of others for free. They already post their music for free online, or let customers name the price they feel the music is worth (Noisetrade.com just to name one, Bandcamp another). They already put up video content on YouTube for free. They write blogs for free. They contribute to Wikipedia for free. They participate in community theatre for free. Free isn't even a question anymore.

No castigation of folks making a living playing music live, but free music in all of it's various varieties is a reality. The law of supply and demand won't disappear.

Be outstanding and people will likely always be willing to pay for that.

In Nash-vegas, the musicians' union is quite active and is a strong force on the music scene. Although I do not personally belong to the union (no need to at the moment), I have several friends who are studio musicians for the labels and one who is an engineer. They are quite pleased with the work of their union.

FWIW. Best to all ...

Alan

“No castigation of folks making a living playing music live, but free music in all of it's various varieties is a reality. The law of supply and demand won't disappear.”

“The value of something is a fickle entity beholden to the public's willingness to pay.”


How does S & D relate to a situation where one supplier is providing the service for free? Consider: GM wants $30K for their car. Ford is giving them away. Which one will you “buy”? Moreover, what happens to the 'value' of GM's car?


“There are going to be more and more people willing to play music in front of others for free.”


That's true. The “selfie” culture we live in now is populated with millions of egoistic self-aggrandizing cretins with guitars, boring customers in every local bar.


“Be outstanding and people will likely always be willing to pay for that.”

If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Its my opinion that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with playing for free as long as you don't think you are being taken advantage of.

I can't believe some of the comments here, where is the good natured intentions of doing something just because you want to and because you enjoy it? rather then being all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward (and maybe you already being a millionaire but still preaching the sad, I'm just scraping by getting a living, some of us are able to read between the lines)

In Ireland there are lots of "sessions" where people just turn up at a pub to play traditional Irish music just because they love it, and no money exchanges hands. It may well be that the pub sells a lot of beer at those sessions but hey the musicians don't expect any money

Also the GAA here the Gaelic athletic Association have amateur status (Irish Football) where the players give their time and efforts for nothing just for the love of the game. Some of the matches at Irelands Croke park in Dublin are in front of 80,000 people plus and genenrate millions of pounds which is put back into the development of the association and to help and train young players. Yet all the palyers and officials give all their time for no monetary reward.

Its a sad sad world when people are only thinking of money all the time, especially when they are older folks that should know better.

You can't bring it with you when you go.

Play for free if you want to, its your choice and let no one make you feel guilty for doing so.

My thoughts
Musiclover

this discussion is interesting for a variety of reasons. For one, it illustrates the fact that intelligent people can have different opinions based on the same basic set of facts... and they can all be right in one way or another.

I am impressed by the overall civility of the discussion, and by the eloquence all of the participants have shown in their choice of words.

Responses to various posts...

The money:

If you are going to make a living playing music you have to think of the money. It's the nasty side of the business.

But I suppose that's the same with many professions, teachers, dentists, carpenters, fishermen, and so on.

Thinking of the money usually makes you more commercial. We learn the songs our audience requests whether or not they would be our first choices or even if they would be near our last choices of new songs to learn. We show up on time, appropriately dressed for the gig (whether it's Hawaiian Shirt to Tuxedo), watch the audience and choose songs to pace them appropriately, and do whatever it takes.

The law:

Unlike the grocery store, we don't have the clout to make the exploited stop playing for free.

Unlike the publishers, ASCAP/BMI, Disney and record companies we don't have the deep pockets to 'bribe' the lawmakers to pass laws on our behalf making it illegal.

No it's not against the law for someone to come to your day job and offer to do it for free one day a week and have you take a 1/5 cut in pay either, but would you like that?

Do unto others.

If you are willing to steal work from your brother and sister musicians, are you OK with other people stealing work from you?

How about if your job gets outsourced to China or Latin America? There is no law against that either.

But that doesn't make it right or ethical.

The Union (AFofM):


I belonged to the union for many, many years. But in the 1970s the Union, was at it's lowest point that I have seen. All they wanted was your dues and the didn't want to provide any services.

Example 1:

We were on the road, playing union clubs, with union contracts, and with union authorized booking agencies. That meant we were in each town for a 2 week with options contract, usually picking up the option and playing the month. We played a club that clearly had financial trouble (the owner was putting the profits up his nose) and didn't get paid the first week. He said he'd pay us both weeks at the end of our second. That didn't happen.

We went to the Union who refused to sue the club owner because the case wasn't precedence setting (whatever they meant by that) and advised us to get our own lawyer. We were on the road and our next gig was a couple of hundred miles away. Needless to say we never got paid, the agency dropped the club, and we had to pay our work dues anyway.

Example 2:

We were the house band at a big hotel on Miami Beach. On the weekends they would bring in big acts from the past - not exactly has-been acts, but not on the top of the charts either. 1960s acts in the early 70s like Little Anthony, The Shirelles, The Association, plus some headliner acts not big enough for stadiums like The Blue Notes and so on. They'd play 2 sets on the weekends and we'd play before, during and after.

The union man came in one night and told us to stop playing. We asked why and he said that there was a non-union band playing a wedding downstairs. We asked him a number of questions including "Are you going to get Little Anthony and his band to stop playing?" and his answer was that Anthony and the band were not in the Miami Local so he wasn't going to do anything of the kind.

We told him we would not stop playing unless the headliner acts were also banned from playing, and so he said we would face a heavy fine. We then told him we were quitting the union, he said you can't do that except on the anniversary of your joining, when your next yearly dues were due. So we didn't pay the fines, didn't pay work dues, sent in letters of resignation with the reasons stated, and that was that.

Where I live now, there is no reason to join the union, it actually hinders you - as they ask the person who hires you to contribute to the retirement fund - and with freebie musicians stealing work, what we don't need is to cost even more money to get hired.

The music business has never been easy. The small bands are small businesses existing in an ever-changing climate. Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years. You have to assess your local market, be competitive with your fellow musicians, but do a better job than your friends.

We have a lot of things that keep us working, great vocals (Leilani is truly outstanding), great sax playing (I was best in the state each year I was in school), excellent crowd pacing, and constant adaptability. Simply put, we put out a better product that most of our competitors. But we do not undercut them to get gigs. I think they would no longer be our friends if we did that, and definitely would lose their respect. Besides, we don't have to do that, in fact, we charge a little more than most.

In this business, you get what you deserve, and by doing things a little better than the average, we can charge a little more. In other words, we charge more because we are worth more.

You get as much as you are worth -- draw your own conclusion.

I suppose the open mic nights are here to stay. Fortunately that doesn't apply to us any more than the "Karaoke Jocks" and DJs do, people still pay for quality - but a lot of the other musicians in town are suffering for that.

Karaoke Jocks = singers who don't play an instrument but rely on karaoke tracks.

We had representatives from a country club we've never played at before (there are many, many CCs here in FL), and the comment was, "You actually played real instruments". They hired us, and we bargained for a price higher than they were accustomed to paying.

We get paid a little more because we are worth a lot more. I don't approve of undercutting or playing for free, but I guess that's me and my views aren't going to change the world.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes,

I really value your real world observations (Likewise 90 db's), and I am glad you are not only a member of the forum, but also that you are willing to share your vast knowledge of this business with the rest of us.

90 dB,

Your example actually proves my point about the car companies. No, they didn't give cars away for free, but GM started the zero percent financing idea and within a couple of weeks, every other car manufacturer followed suit. It's now something that isn't common, but hauled out now and then to spark the market.

I tip my hat to you and others who are true professional musicians here on the forum, making your living as a performing musician. I certainly don't have the b@lls to give it a try - I'm fairly certain I would fail miserably compared to my source of income - which is interestingly related to your forum handle as I think we've PMed about before.

My point about S&D is that the selfie culture, enabled by technology, has driven that cross-over point of those supply and demand curves right down to zero as supply of those willing to play for the attention of others (not for pay, they have some other job that pays their bills. That does unfortunately drive that crossover down to very low points - free even.

That's all I have been trying to say in my posts.

Very well said Musiclover! Most of us here in the US share your views too! Where I grew up it was (and still is today) quite common for folks to come together, on a porch or in a bar or wherever, and play for the pure enjoyment of it! And if someone thinks that is preventing them from getting paid for a gig they need to go look for a real job and stop blaming others for their problems!

I don't know what you do for a living, but I rather doubt you would characterize it as being "all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward", would you? Or you work for free, perhaps, just for the love of it.

So now you speak for 'most' of us, Bugsey?


A 'real job'? Like yours, perhaps? Neurosurgery? Nuclear Physics?


You elevate pathos to a new level.

Pat, not everyone expressing an opinion here is dealing with 'facts'. They are dealing in conjecture.



Regards,

Bob

why do you always resort to name-calling? I can certainly respond in kind as your "quips" are never really that clever. but it would be better to have a conversation without the name-calling, don't you think?

In addition to what Notes said, I've found that the majority of "play for free players" are not up to the standards of what I consider good musicians. I've lived and worked in many cities and can say with certainty that all of the players who I consider good are always working. It's usually sub-standard musicians who will play for free or next to nothing. I practiced and studied many years to reach a level that I consider decent. Anyone who wants to be called a musician should do no less. Also the practicing and studying is always on-going. No-one would accept a sub-standard plumber or carpenter to do work on their house. Why accept a sub-standard musician? Later, Ray

What name did I call you? "Bugsey? That's your other handle on JPF, is it not? You know, where you run down BIAB, this forum, and the people on it?


'Respond in kind'? Really? Like calling me "Chuckles"? Absolutely scathing retort there.


Perhaps you should rethink your participation in this particular 'conversation', since you have no experience in the music business, and offer nothing but vindictive conjecture? There's no shame in being ignorant, but one really shouldn't display it so publicly, no?

oh, now I see! you think I am the guy called Bugsey who spanked you over at JPF! well that is friggin' priceless! and here I thought the name Bugsey meant something derogatory. nope, sorry I cannot take credit for setting you straight over at JPF!

You have already copped to your other persona, Mr. Bugsey. You must have forgotten that. Funny how I was called "Chuckles" by both people, no?

The BIAB thread on JPF makes for some interesting reading though.


http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1012945/page/1#Post1012945

Please take the flame wars to PMs.

However, I disagree -- I think I speak for most of us - and neither one can prove that point so neither one has a valid argument by saying that.

Statements like that are best left out of a debate so I retract mine because it can't be proven and negate yours.

I also agree that MOST open mic nights offer inferior entertainment. The musicians that play for free are usually not as good (not always) and the groups are not rehearsed.

Perhaps it will end up being a bad business model and the club owners will realize that they get what they pay for.

If a restaurant buys inferior cuts of meat or wilted lettuce, customers will go elsewhere.

If the restaurant underpays the cooks it will only get inferior food preparation and customers will eventually go elsewhere.

If the bar asked its bartenders and waiters/waitresses to work on tips only, they would only get inferior bartenders and wait staff and the customers will eventually go elsewhere.

If the club gets freebie musicians the quality of entertainment will be inferior and pretty soon the general public will hopefully get tired of all the same songs done in various shades of mediocrity and go elsewhere.

And sure, playing music together on front porches, garages, public parks, living rooms, warehouses, and so on are a time honored tradition, one which I have participated in many times.

But playing in a commercial establishment for free is a different thing. Stealing a job from a fellow musician by playing for free is something I would never do. It's a "do unto others" thing for me.

That's all I'm saying and all I'm going to say about the subject. We've gotten to the point where we are just repeating ourselves and have come to an impasse.

Notes

Very well stated Notes and I totally agree.

Nope! You got the wrong guy. (I took the rest of my comment to PM as Notes suggested! )

I'd certainly agree with that (and been there/done that)! But that is the whole point of an open mic, at least to me. It is an opportunity for amateurs to get up on stage and have a little fun. And the crowd generally knows what they are getting and everyone is happy!


Hmm, the union musicians in your area might say you were stealing their jobs by not supporting their union!


Agreed!

My takeaway from this thread is that the paradigm has shifted.. and my thoughts going forward will be about how to identify new opportunities and adapt to them.

I am currently involved in similar discussions on other sites, and I see a common theme of getting lost in the worldwide glut of digital media that divides potential income too many ways.

There is a clear need for someone to market creative content in a way that empowers the creators and helps them stand out in the crowd.

Maybe when my son's streaming site comes online we can differentiate ourselves by finding new ways to promote our performers.

It stabs this old Irishman in the heart to read such garbage on PG Forums.

Someone may simply point me toward the exit, which I had already done, as far as this thread is concerned, at least. I've been enjoying these forums for many years (probably around 2001) and I've never witnessed anything like this claptrap.

Taking it to PMs is only a baby-step which allows the injury to remain open. Fellow musicians, give this tune a 128 bar rest!

Hope he does well Pat as I am sure he stands a good chance with his "ole fella" with some great ideas like you behind him.

At the same time reading this, the thought occurred would some who are against playing for free, even consider that site of your sons (as well as streetjelly) in the same league as playing for free, maybe it would be beneath them to accept a few tips like on SJ in lieu of payment, I don't know!!

As regards the generalisation that most sub standared musicians are the ones playing for free, then I say good luck to them.

Whoever said that we all have to be of a level of musicmanship before we are allowed to go in front of an audience. That it totally crazy!

Are the so called pro's (just wondering how many know of them beyond their local area anyway) only allowed to enjoy the clap or appreciation of an audience and the rest of us of a lessor standard should be locked away?

I don't think so.

musiclover

Notes made the definitive statement on this subject when he pointed out that each venue has its own characteristic music offering.. some employ only full bands, some prefer singles acts, some prefer DJs etc etc. The guy in a duo or singles act is not directly competing in the same marketplace as the full band. Likewise, people playing on streaming sites are not competing directly with musicians playing in the neighborhood.

Physical venues like pubs, restaurants, theaters etc have a finite space and time slot, and they appeal to a strictly local audience.

The streaming sites appeal to an audience that is probably not going out for live entertainment anyway... so rather than stealing something from the live acts, this is more like opening the door to an entirely untapped audience.

Also, the physicals sites have a handful of spots in the current time zone to divvy up among many competing musicians... but the streaming sites are open 24-7, and its always show time SOMEWHERE... so streaming actually creates new performance opportunities that didn't exist at all before.

That's why, if you play the circuit of all the streaming sites you can find, you could literally play all day long continuously because at any given time of day somebody somewhere just got off work and wants to hear some live music

Regarding the pay: a little bit of money multiplied by a lot of opportunities is more than a lot of money multiplied by no opportunities.

Unlike the physical locations that can turn away acts all day long because they don't have enough spots for them, the streaming sites are hungry for performers, because there are no limitations of time or space.

So say we all! (otherwise known as Amen!)

I can understand folks like Notes and 90db being against performers taking paying gigs away from working musicians. What I don’t understand is ANYONE being against “open mic nights”.

Plain and simple, …it’s ridiculous to take that stance! 99% of the folks playing there are never going to be competing with professional players. They’re just wanting to play their music before a live audience and get some feedback.

For me, … I have NO interest whatsoever of listening to someone playing cover songs with backing tracks. I would much rather hear a solo artist play an original song in a mediocre manner than listen to a solid performance of someone playing tired old covers of hit songs from the past.

Let’s face it. If it’s a cover band with backing tracks at a club/restaurant, …no one is listening anyway. It’s just “background music”, … a close relative to elevator music!

If you can get someone to pay you for doing that, then more power to you!

But you can count me out as a listener.

Just for the record, it s not the musicians who play the open mics for me as it is more the "lure" the establishment used to get them there. Then on top of that they, while adding dollars to their bottom-line, do not offer even expense money to the performer. And of course I am well aware that the performer has to agree to the "deal" to be present. But one has to agree this is a one way deal with little to no incentive for the performer.

Last week I spoke at length to another single act musician who just started playing the same corporate circuit that I do and he asked me what kind of pay he could expect, if I did not mind telling him. Of course I was happy to do so as I truly feel that if we as musicians communicated more openly about this issue it would benefit all of us.

So when I told him the average fee his contemporaries were getting at the same venues, it turned out it was 25% - 35% more than he was charging. Instead of the "hey man thanks for that heads up" I was expecting he said great I'll keep my price lower so I can still get the gigs. And that attitude is what my gut tells me is what is happening everywhere these days.

No right or wrong thing to do in this situation the finally decision as to when and what one must charge for their services is truly a personal thing. However if it is truly an act of love to "play just to play" I would encourage please check out the many venues who do not sell food and beverage and entertain at these places and you will find the warmest most appreciative audiences known to man.

My opinion on this subject, like many of my respected colleagues here, has not changed. With this said I will close my participation on this thread with a old quote I saw on an antique Jack Daniels bottle . . . "all goods worth price charged".

Now lets play some music!

Later,

Being a votary of the charities, and especially for our fighting men and women, I'm with you 100%, Danny. By the way, I've heard that same benighted statement, "You come in and build up a crowd and then we'll talk money", many times before. I usually follow that up with "You let me drink beer for free until you build up my confidence that you're a nice place to drink, then we'll talk paying for the beer". LOL

PS.... I like the image you're running on your FB page.

“For me, … I have NO interest whatsoever of listening to someone playing cover songs with backing tracks. I would much rather hear a solo artist play an original song in a mediocre manner than listen to a solid performance of someone playing tired old covers of hit songs from the past.”


'Tired old covers'? You obviously haven't seen the Sophisticats or 90 dB perform live, Bobo.


“Let’s face it. If it’s a cover band with backing tracks at a club/restaurant, …no one is listening anyway. It’s just “background music”, … a close relative to elevator music!”


While I grant you that cover songs aren't as captivating as the subtle intricacies of G/C/D bluegrass tunes, most club patrons would disagree with your assessment. Probably all the ones singing along, and certainly the ones out on the dance floor. I've never seen anyone dancing in an elevator.

Thanks for the invite.

I love to see and hear people perform. Maybe your good self and Notes Norton have a youtube page where we could take in the atmosphere of your performance.

I would love to click on the link for that, only way really is its much too far for me to travel.

Musiclover

http://www.90dbband.com/index.html


Bob Norton will have to give you his site. I would not take that liberty.
If you ever do get to Florida, stop by and we'll have a few.

90db and musiclover,

I knew when I made that post that I was inviting some grief. Thank both of you for making that dream come true. Hehe.

Sorry guys, but I hate listening to vocal cover tunes unless they’re totally redone. I also hate playing what people want to hear! The only time I’ll play a request is if it’s from a friend who knows the songs I like to play.

That’s why I never pursued playing music professionally except on a very limited basis. I honestly don’t give a rat’s a*s what anyone wants to hear!

I’ve played guitar since I was a kid. Eventually, I got to the point where I could play half way decent. Then I started getting requests from local bands to “join” their band. I wasn’t interested because I had NO desire to try to please the public with cover tunes.

Since I’ve never tried making a living playing music, I’ve enjoyed the luxury of only playing songs I like. Then I started writing my own songs, and I honestly didn’t care if anyone else liked them or not.

The songs weren’t for the general public. They were for me. When I played them, folks could either listen or take a hike. It didn’t matter to me since it wasn’t a form of income.

The exception to the “cover tune” scenario for me was great instrumental tunes. Those I enjoyed.

Bob, If you think modern bluegrass/newgrass is G/C/D, then you’re TOTALLY out of touch with acoustic music.

I don’t begrudge working musicians playing the garbage required to get gigs, but I do reserve the right to stay as far away from it as possible.

I'd rather hear a local radio program or the original versions of hit tunes.

I don't want to hear a single or duo with backing tracks.

But that's just me. This thread does make me realize why live cover music is almost dead.

Who wants to hear that?! I don't unless it's done with a full blown band.

90 db..... what part of Florida are you in? I'll be in central Fl later in July on a family vacation... if we are close by, I might stop in to a gig....

To the folks who play and make a living at it.

Yes, as Pat Marr said, the paradigm has changed. Apparently, if you're still playing and getting paid, you have adapted to it. The music business has changed. Vinyl records became cassettes and eventually CD's and then the digital download practically killed hard media sales totally. To think that would not reflect into the live music scene to one degree or another in one way or another would be foolish thinking.

Back in the day when I gigged for a living, there were plenty of places that let you play for free, and plenty of musicians willing to play those gigs. No different than now. But technology has changed and now the solo act can use any one of a dozen ways to enhance the music they play.

The amazing thing back then was this. That folks who did play for free or cheap never affected our band. Not once did we show up at a club and find we had been canceled in favor of a "free band" for that weekend. Not one single time. When a club started to use the free entertainment over the paid bands, it was an indication that the club was about to go out of business.

The gigs that paid good money were reserved to the best bands and the clubs and venues were packed. The club down the street that had the "free" entertainment was normally close to empty. People knew that when it came to weekend entertainment, the old motto that "you get what you pay for" applied and for a good time on a weekend night, that good time was found where the bands were getting top dollar and knew how to keep the good times rolling.

So no, we never really gave it a second thought that other folks and bands were willing to play for free. They weren't even close to the same professional level as us and they were not in the same venue circuit as we were....so they posed no threat to our livelihood.

If we had the time, we'd often go and see them and offer them some encouragement.

Got to get my $1.25 worth of comments in here.

EVERYBODY competes with each other in a capitalist society (CS). Those that gain the most GAME the CS's rules best to their own advantage - and use their influence to funnel the most money they can into their own pockets. They use their 'competitive' advantage to do so - which these days, is their sheer SIZE and CONTROL of the market.

Also, these days - companies are so BIG, economy of scale so large, and CONTROL of the market so strong - they can give A LOT of stuff away for free in order to DOMINATE and CONTROL the market. They do this buy BUYING rights to everything they can, and then GIVING as much as they have to away in order to win more $$$$$ from their competitors.

It goes on in EVERY field. It benefits each and every one of us every day - how often to you download software for free, or get a great 'closeout' item. The flip side is it hurts the individual that can't afford to compete in an environment like this (in fact, only the largest capitalized companies and monopolies can), and as a result - the individual is forced by this system to also give his product away for very low cost - as their are many low-financed small individuals competing with each other for some leverage from that big MONOPOLIZED company (even if there are 5 or 10 companies that control music distribution now - compare that with the number of music creators).

Again - my $1.25 view of the world. Take it for what it's worth.

Bob, your duo sounds great!

Where are you located in Florida? We come down to Florida every once in a while and maybe we can connect the next time we come down.

“This thread does make me realize why live cover music is almost dead.
Who wants to hear that?!”


Bob, I'm guessing that you don't go out to bars or clubs much. Your opinion puts you in a very small minority. Unless you're in a large city with an active original music scene, 99% of the music played is covers. Hardly 'dead'.

People want to hear songs they know, and while you may look down your nose at that, it's a fact.


“I don’t begrudge working musicians playing the garbage required to get gigs...


We only cover songs that we like, and enjoy playing. We wouldn't play 'garbage'. Of course, our song list is nowhere near as comprehensive as Notes', who covers every song ever written!


As for the old argument of original vs. covers, having done both, I can tell you that it's a lot easier to do original music than doing a cover well. With a cover, you are always compared to the original.


“Who wants to hear that?! I don't unless it's done with a full blown band.”


We would love to put a full-blown band together, but it's just not economically feasible. As a duo, we make much more than any single band member in our area, without all the drama involved. It also helps being married – nobody ever misses rehearsals.

Herb,

We're in Ocala, about 80 miles north of Orlando. We haven't firmed up July yet, but our confirmed schedule is here:

http://www.90dbband.com/Page6.html


Places book on short notice around here, but hopefully we'll be doing City Fire in the Villages all summer.



Regards,

Bob

Thanks Mario. We're making a newer demo - that was just "rolling tape" during a rehearsal.

Would love to hook up next time you're in Floriduhh. Let us know.


Regards,

Bob

Bob,

I knew it was impossible for me to honestly express an opinion without it coming across as harsh. That's not your fault or mine. I don't proclaim to speak for anyone other than myself.

Believe it or not, there are musicians who are making a decent living playing originals and a handful of covers on the festival circuit. I'm not one of them and I've never tried to be. I have gotten to play with a few of them after the official show was over. I've even been "drafted" to play with a handful of them onstage when the "geetar player" was absent.

They'll never be rich or famous on a national or international level.

Those are the kinds of musicians I want to hear.

But if I go to a club or restaurant, I'd rather they just play "elevator music" at a very low volume than have anyone playing with backing tracks.

But that's just me.

interesting and insightful perspectives all around!

When it comes to the expression of personal preference, there are no wrong answers. What I find most interesting isn't the preference itself, but the reasoning behind the preference.

What makes this discussion more interesting than similar discussions on other forums is that everybody here is smart enough and articulate enough to state their points of view VERY well.

Interestingly, I have yet to hear one point of view that I disagree with, based on the persons reasoning behind it. That isn't to say that I SHARE every point of view... my thinking lines up with certain people's pretty much every time... but every person who has participated in this discussion has done an excellent job of communicating whatever he/she had to say.

I respect the ability to communicate clearly every bit as much as I respect the ability to play an instrument well.

I've seen people perform with backing tracks, and I couldn't wait till they stopped... it was awful.

But I've also seen people perform with trax and they blew me away, they dominated the stage.

Same goes for full bands, solo acts, people playing covers, people playing original music... even DJs... there are interesting examples and boring examples of each.

my preference, since that's what we're mostly dealing in, is to be entertained , and that involves more than proficiency with an instrument or quality of background music. It involves stage presence, audience savvy, personality, wit, and the ability to "ramp it up" so the presentation stays interesting the whole time

Bob,

Please understand that I am not trying to be a wise guy here in any way shape or form, believe me I can one when I really want to be (tongue planted firmly in cheek) but . . . if you are so stead fast against backing tracks, and again I respect your right to be so, how and "why" do you use BIAB?

Thanks,

For practicing only.

Gotcha thanks.

Later,

I have come across this disucussion in multiple music forums frequent. This discussion here took a strange twist so I ignored it for a while, but I am glad to see it calming down.

Here is a different spin which I don't think I have seen in previous inputs. It comes from here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=140701

"...I remember reading an interview Paco de Lucia complaining about the fact that in USA music is regarded as entertainment first and foremost. He regarded himself as an artist and his work and performances as art.

I guess this is the main issue: music is mostly regarded as a constant stream of entertainment. As long as music is not regarded as art any more, it´s not precious any more."


I think it is a good point. Some times it is hard to hear the "art" amongst all the noise. Despite the fact that there are apparently too many musicians walking the streets, we still seem to be a little short on artists.

and what is art to you may be noise to me (and vice versa!)

great article!

Excellent point Dan. The kind of live music I enjoy is where the audience is expected to come in, sit down, shut up and listen.

In this scenario the musicians are treated with respect instead of being treated like glorified mp3 players doling out background music.

I hadn't thought about it in terms of art vs entertainment, but it does present an interesting angle.

the recurring discussion here has always divided at that line.. (art? or entertainment?)

the arguments set forth by the people in the discussion clearly show which side each of us weighs in on. And both points are valid. Not everybody wants to be an artist, and not everybody wants to be an entertainer. They are different paths that lead to different outcomes.

People who want to make money nearly always weigh in on the side of entertainment... mostly because the term "starving artist" has so often proven to be accurate.

In contrast, we are accustomed to seeing well-to-do entertainers on TV and in movies.

I'd say that those who see themselves as pursuing the art would be more likely to play for free, while those who are pursuing music as an entertainment business would not. Both of those conclusions make sense in the context of the person's goal.

Well, cover songs are not garbage. To many, many people, a song represents a time in their life, a memory of a person or event, and hearing the song brings that memory back. That's why oldies radio stations are so popular and that's why the majority of musicians and bands in clubs are "cover bands".

If you are among the rare group of musicians who are able to play mostly your own original material, consider yourself fortunate. You have obviously been at it for a long time in order to be able to get away with playing originals and not getting thrown out of the clubs. You have a loyal following who shows up at the gigs, and you present the original material in a way that even the new folks to your shows get into the music and the lyrics.

In the bands I've been in, we mostly played covers. Some originals sprinkled in but mostly cover tunes. I've even had club owners specifically tell us not to play more than one or two (at the most) original songs in a set because the people don't dance to what they don't know.

It takes time to build that audience who comes to the shows loyally, and want to hear your songs as opposed to covers. Since we couldn't do many originals that actually was the inspiration for us to work up "alternative" versions of cover songs that became our "trademark style" as it turned out. We didn't play the covers in the same tired stale way and it became something that people really enjoyed..... it also became our stage show and our little 3 piece band was commanding the same money that 6 and 7 piece bands were getting as a result of how we did things. Other local bands started to try to copy us. That's when you know you have people's attention. Their attempts were not successful. There was but one band doing what we did.... and it was us.

I said I'm not going to say anything more about playing for free and I meant it, however the thread has drifted to art/backing tracks/cover songs and so on.

First of all, whatever a musician likes best is of no concern to me. Someone won't listen to a band with backing tracks, another wants original tunes, and so on. But we all listen to music with our musician's ears, and we make up a tiny segment of the population.

I suppose when nuclear scientists get together they talk about things I don't understand, even though I've had physics in college and am interested in the subject and do my best to try to understand the spin and flavors of sub-atomic particles.

When I go out to listen to live music, my favorite is a symphony orchestra playing a symphony from one of my favorite composers - in essence I'm going out to hear a cover band. So in the discussion previous to this, there are those who think the greatest music the world has ever known is not art. I disagree.

My second choice would be cool school jazz. Both of these arouse my interest as a musician, and neither one is mainstream.

I've played both symphonic and jazz, and if I could make a living playing cool school jazz, I'd probably go that way. But then again, I'd miss the blues, rock, salsa, and other forms I get to play.

I don't care if another musician doesn't want to hear backing tracks, I don't care if another musician cares if my music is art or not, I don't care if another musician thinks my cover songs are worthy or not, or if he/she thinks my re-interpretation of popular songs is art or not.

It's not that I don't respect what a musician says, and if a musician offers constructive criticism, I listen and evaluate it. But if they say, I don't like you because you use backing tracks or something as inane as that, their viewpoint is ignored.

A musician listens with musician's ears which should be more educated, refined, and discriminating that that of the general public. But since the musician is educated, he/she should also be able to appreciate the art that goes into simpler forms of music. When I hear a greatly crafted pop song, it also moves me. When I hear a great song, even if it isn't the style that I like to listen to, I can appreciate it on it's own merits.

If everyone's ears were educated, the general public would listen to nothing but symphonies, since they require the most training to understand.

Just because it's popular or because someone has done the song before, doesn't automatically make it kitsch.

If another musician doesn't like the fact that Leilani sings "At Last" better than Etta James because it's a cover song, I don't care. She usually gets wild response from the audience from that and many other songs as well.

I do care what the audience thinks, and for all my life, the public has approved of what I do. So did the educational system. When I was in school, I was first tenor sax in the all-state band every year, and section leader - a chair that goes to the first alto player by default. It's a little like a viola player being the concertmaster in a symphony orchestra.

You can play for yourself, you can play for other musicians, or you can play for the general public -- if you are good enough, you'll get the audience you asked for.

I always asked for the general public, and they have never let me down.

I think what we do is art, but I don't confuse it with a symphony from Dvorak or Shastakovitch. And remember, Beethoven was an entertainer too. I've heard some people doing originals that paled in comparison to your average Motown song as far as what I consider "art" to be. Playing originals doesn't automatically make you a great artist.

So if you don't like backing tracks or cover songs, your opinion is that of one musician, and does not represent the definitive word in good taste, just your opinion. It doesn't make tracks or covers good or bad, just not your thing.

I can think of a number of songs from the lowly genre of Rock that in my opinion cross over to great art, to name just a few (in no particular order), Bohemian Rhapsody, Hotel California, Tom Jones Version of I Who Have Nothing, Aretha's I Never Loved A Man The Way That I Loved You, Paul Simon's The Boxer, The Beatles' Abbey Road Medley, and the list goes on and on and on and on. And if a band covers them well, it's as artful as an orchestra playing a symphony.

I play some cover songs similar to the popular versions, I play others reinterpreted, and I also play kitch songs. I do them all artfully, and when I make my backing tracks, I use all the skills I learned about arranging in school, my experience playing sax, drums, guitar, bass, keys, wind synth, keyboard synth, and vocal on stage in excellent bands. I consider them artful feats of arranging and sequencing. My audience may not know why, but they like what they hear, and isn't that what music is all about? And you may call it entertaining, and yes entertaining is an important part of music, but I just call is music, and it's a very emotionally rewarding way to make a living.

Bob

Notes,

I agree with you 100%.

But if your reply was based on an interpretation of my last post that you believe indicated I don't think you are an artist AND a performer, then apparently I did not communicate my thoughts effectively.

I hoped it would be commonly agreed that music is art.

The point of my post was to differentiate the choices made when somebody fuses art and business, as opposed to art for art's sake alone. For convenience's sake I referred to the two groups in overly simplified terms. My mistake, sorry if my communication style was misleading.

I started out in a fine arts program until a counselor pointed out that if I actually want to illustrate for books, magazines etc I should probably be in the commercial art curriculum instead of the fine arts curriculum. Art for arts sake is wide open in the way you approach it, but art for commercial applications requires specific additional skills that are typically not covered in the fine arts programs.

And so it is with music.

I art a musician, not no artist mon.


Where de rum?

Notes, your post just about covers everything. I'll repeat again, good players will always find gigs, bad ones, for the most part, will play for free or next to nothing. Later, Ray

Totally missing the point yet again, The so called bad player playing for free, probably doesn't care a damm about getting paid and probably is enjoying himself more than the so called pro and I use that term loosely.

90db your demo sounds great, great upbeat sound.

I have nothing against backing tracks use them in biab when I try writing a song.

The only thing is probably a track has to be muted or drowned out when a person is playing live, and the muted or drwoned out track may have a better part than the actual instrument player on stage.

But what the hell, its better to be seen playing something, else you are just a singer.

Isn't called show business for nothing.

Musiclover

Good point. I’ve never wanted to be a “showman”. I’ve never wanted to be an “entertainer.” The only thing I’ve wanted as a musician is to play for people who wanted to quietly LISTEN to the music instead of expecting me to entertain them while they ignored me.

It’s perfectly okay for folks to get rowdy between songs, but while I’m playing I want them to either shut up and listen, …or leave immediately.

That’s part of why I chose to focus primarily on acoustic music. Wood and strings. Honest and intimate. It can be played on your front porch when the electricity is off or around a campfire at night.

I’ve been called a “purist” on here more than once. I now also find myself thinking about music in terms of art or entertainment. I’ll take “art” 99.99% of the time.

If I hear 2 instruments coming through the PA system, I want to see 2 musicians on stage. If I hear 5 instruments, then I want to see 5 musicians on stage.

My favorite combo when playing live is a duo. Preferably guitar and mandolin. Both instruments are well suited to lead and a solid rhythm backup.

But as I’ve repeatedly stated on these forums, that’s just my opinion. I don’t speak for anyone other than myself. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valid opinion.

Keep it simple and honest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1cWO_38Bw&index=21&list=PL7MZ550uvzVrKj0jp-Fr-Pvc75KOrJsOV

Actually, Bob, I think there are probably very few of us who don't like what you're talking about. But that's not where the opportunities are.

Playing to a respectful "listening room" is usually a privilege enjoyed only by people who have earned their reputation by years of playing all the places that AREN'T concert halls.

If you can pull it off without taking the usual route, I say more power to ya! You've got more on the ball than I ever will!

(and I say that sincerely)


PS, the Sierra Hull clip was AWESOME!

Pat, no offense was taken and I never thought you inferred what I do isn't art.

I do understand art for art's sake. My wife is a fine artist.

On the other hand, I've seen and heard a lot of attempts at fine art that in my opinion are not fine art at all, even if they are original. Note I said "In my opinion" because art is subjective.

My wife is a trained fine artist, and thanks to her, I've learned a lot about the subject and how to appreciate art. I've been to some of the world's finest art museums like the Metropolitan, MoMa, Chicago, US and British National Galleries, Tate, Prado, Sofia Reina, Ufizzi, Pitti, Budapest, Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh, and dozens of others, plus regional galleries and numerous road artist shows. I've seen great art, and I've seen what is supposed to be great art but to me was either kitsch or B.S.

Just because it's original, doesn't make it art either in the music business or the visual arts. And conversely, just because it's popular doesn't me it isn't art.

And where do you draw the line.

Is Hopper's "Night Hawks" art or illustration? Is Paul Simon's "The Boxer" a pop song or art music? These and so many others seem to straddle the line, and whatever category you put them in, I like them.

Jackson Pollock is considered to be a fine artist, but to me his work looks like a house painter's drop cloth, and for my way of thinking, there is too much left to chance to be fine art - others have the right to disagree.

On backing tracks.

I make my own backing tracks, planning the arrangement, recording each instrument into a sequencer live and in real time, and sometimes augmenting them with parts extracted from BiaB. What I like to do most in BiaB is to record the top line of a part I want to add, let BiaB do the "Mule Work" of adding the harmony parts and import that into the sequencer. BiaB harmonizes just like the Berklee Correspondence course taught me how to do it.

Is arranging music an art? I don't care, and if so, are my arrangements good enough to cross that line? I like to create my backing tracks and I'm very proud of my work.

If arranging for a sequenced backing track isn't art, then what Nelson Riddle did with an orchestra isn't art either.

If I go out and if the band has backing tracks, I'll evaluate whether they are karaoke tracks or not, and evaluate them along with the rest of the music. I can't help it, it's what I do. I analyze and look for both the good and bad in every piece of music I hear.

To me music is a continuum, from kitsch to art. That Muddy Waters 12 bar blues song is a different kind of art from that Prokofiev Symphony, and although I know the Prokofiev is much more complex, and takes much more knowledge of music theory, I still like Muddy Waters. So where do I draw the line between pop and art? Jethro Tull, Yes, Moody Blues, Gino Vanelli, and so many others seemed to cross that line, but still, it's hard to define where that line is.

In the end, it all comes down to personal taste.

To me there are only two kinds of music, good music and music written and/or played for someone other than me.

Another musician may not want to hear backing tracks, and that's OK. I don't want to gaze at Jackson Pollock or a Mark Rothko work because they don't do it for me.

Beethoven, Mozart and so many others did works on commission - artists or illustrators?

I think Dave Brubeck's "Blue Rondo ala Turk" is a piece of fine art, but anything I've ever heard Ornette Coleman did never spoke to me.

Who should be the arbiter of what is great art? Who has the right to say Pollock is fine art and Rockwell is not?

I've never been able to draw the line. I recognize obvious kitch, and also fine art but where to draw all the lines in between is something I've never been able to do.

I've heard great groups with backing tracks, and I've heard great soloists playing in front of an orchestra reading charts - live backing tracks?

I've heard many of the greatest symphony orchestras in the world playing cover songs by dead European composers. Cover bands.

Two weeks ago the local blues society came out to our gig as a "Hooked On Blues" event. Many of the members are musicians. Nobody seemed to mind the backing tracks, because the applause and the looks on their faces told me they enjoyed the music very much.

There are so many tools to making music, whether you use backing tracks, use BiaB right out of the box, or are a purist using only hand made acoustic instruments, or play in front of an orchestra reading charts, or whether you cover someone else's material note for note, if you have an audience you must be at least OK. If you have a dedicated audience you must be good. Whether it's art or not? Who cares? Whether you pass an emotion from yourself to the audience, you should care.

And IMHO there is nothing wrong with being an entertainer either, List, Paganini, and so many of the greatest musicians of all time were also entertainers.

This has been all my personal opinions on art, and I don't think any one person or committee should be the arbiter of what is art or not, so feel free to have another equally valid opinion.

Insights and incites by Notes

Bob, It is great that you can still perform like you do. However it sounds like your area is quite a bit different than mine.

In the late 60’s I had a jazz trio, B3, guitar and drums, that played some covers but a lot of original music also. We played in lounges where people did just listen. We loved it and they loved it. However those places disappeared. They wanted rock, country or country rock as those in attendance apparently drank a lot more, thus more money for the owners. There were a number of combos like ours that either changed formats or quit playing.

We changed into a wedding band around 1970 and we went from playing what we wanted to what they the customer wanted, i.e. we became a business. Very few, if any, originals at a gig. All the customer wanted was a recognizable beat so that is what we delivered. We must have been successful at it, as we were extremely busy until we got old and the wedding circuit turned to DJs. I still hate DJs!

When things were slow during the winter we were still busy playing at VFWs, Elk’s clubs, American Legions, Moose halls and private parties. The only free gigs we did were at the VA hospitols.

We played live, no backing tracks. However I much rather here a musician(s) using backing tracks that listening to a DJ or kariokie.

So the question is am I an artist or an entertainer? I don’t think that you can separate the two.

once again, Notes, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But this quote especially caught my attention:



this observation is the basis for my own subjective definition of art. To me, an endeavor approaches art in direct proportion to how difficult it is to reproduce.

Splatter paint on canvas? I can do that too, so to me that fails the reproducibility test.

But when I look at an Andrew Wyeth painting.. I can't do that.
When I watch olympic gymnasts... I can't do that
when I watch Tommy Emmanuel.. I can't do that
etc etc etc

In my opinion, reproducing songs from the past and nailing the tones, notes, inflections etc is something that most people can't do too. It may not be the same art as the original work, but it definitely requires skill and dedication to task in order to do it.

In some ways, it is harder than the original, because they played in their own natural style, whereas the cover song performer has to duplicate many artists styles, often on multiple intruments. And it takes a lot of work getting the same tone in the instruments and a similar mix

If I get up in front of an audience and sing and solo I'm already doing what another performer without trax is doing... but the trax fills in the white space and becomes the time machine that takes the audience back to the first time they heard the song.

In short, it challenges me as much to make the trax as it does to learn my performance parts. These are the first reasons why I choose this route.

The second reason is that I want to earn money and playing covers seems to be the best way to do that.

very well said, Notes!

I'm not missing any points. Notes has already covered all of them. I've made a decent living playing piano for over 50 years. I work solo, trio, quartet, quintet and big band gigs. BIAB is included on my solo gigs. I've seen too many places where club owners will get bad entertainment just to save some of their budget. Those bad musicians who are playing free or next to nothing are depriving qualified musicians of gigs. I'm done with this thread. I don't anyone's position on free vs pay will be changed. Later, Ray

I find it very interesting how different people define "art". Personal preference almost always comes into play. My son and I have visited The Art Institute of Chicago many times. He is an artist and a lot of my inspiration to write songs comes from seeing how passionate he is about his art.

On a recent visit to the Art Institute we viewed an entire gallery that was filled with different sized canvases but they were all mostly blank. If you looked closely you could see some minimal shading and markings on some of them. But to me, they looked mostly blank.

Of course, we spent the next few days arguing about whether or not they were really art. My position being "if there is nothing much on the canvas it can't be art" and "if I can do it it can't be art" and "if it takes so little effort it can't be art"! But my son held fast to his viewpoint that art is subjective and he pointed out how my metrics fail in many examples I do consider as art.

So, even though I still have trouble considering mostly blank canvases as art, I have learned a lot about art from my son. Mostly I have learned that just because I don't get it or it does not fit with my perceptions of art, that does not mean it is not art. It just means I don't prefer it.

Interesting side effect of that realization...I am starting to appreciate a lot more art than I ever did before!

it is just not so black & white Ray! I have heard plenty of great musicians playing for free and I have paid top dollar for some lame performances!

Mario,

I'm not performing anymore. I consider it an accomplishment just to wake up and give a rat's a*s whether or not the sun shines.

The opinions I've stated about playing for others haven't changed much since I was a child learning to play guitar

I've always wondered why musicians would play live for an audience that ignored them. A small amount of money isn't a good enough reason.

If people just want hear music in the background, why not just play mp3"s? It's easier and it sounds better!

Bob I hear you about waking up! I feel the same way.

Some of the people did ignore us while many liked us. Just because they were dancing didn’t mean they didn’t like us. In fact we believed that it was our job to play what they wanted to dance too and it wasn’t just a small amount of money. We made quite a bit of money playing at weddings.

People started using DJs because they were cheaper than bands. DJs put a lot of bands out of business in this area.

Peace my friend.

You're nothing but a glorified jukebox in that situation. But that is also, likely the fault of the band as it is anything else. If the band was "entertaining" the people, the people would be paying attention and be involved with the band and not ignoring them.

That's the reason one of the better bands I played in was a "Show Band" as much as anything else. We played the music the way we wanted, but we also had a stage show and routines that kept the people watching to see what we would do next. Our drummer had more jokes in his head than some of the standup comedians and between songs he was talking and joking and the people loved it. We did things in the songs that people came back time after time to see us do and even requested that we do it.

I carried some of that stuff into bands I was in later....

like this>>>> Family Tradition does TOP

Just silly stuff but the people loved it and ate it up...and yeah, the drummer jumped over the drums onto the stage... A couple of mop heads for beards and a half baked Top song.... That was actually something the people would ask...."Are you going to do the ZZ Top song tonight?

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

To Bob's point regarding listening audiences. I had to get a few years under my belt playing gigs before I understood that they are different types of audiences, very often all intermingled within the same crowd. Now I break them down into "three groups" but I am sure others may have variations on my filing system.

#1. The group no artist, musician or entertainer are not too crazy about, and that is the people who just want your music in the background to enhance, not interfere with nor overpower their conversations.

#2. Bob's favorites (and mine "sometime" also) the listeners, they like to hear every note, every chord change and every lick.

#3. The third are the dancers, they also like to hear every note, chord change and lick, with one caveat, they also like to feel them.

I guess with this stated I am neither a artist or an entertainer but more of a psychologist/social worker. Man and do I have fun doing it. Might even start carrying a couch to my gigs.

PS: And for what it's worth I am very happy that 99% of the time I either get the #2's and 3's a couple times a week.

Later,

yeah, that's true Ray... but discussions like this aren't as much about changing anyone's mind as about exploring how a lot of different people see the same thing.

Danny you forgot one, the one that always wants to play “Stump the Band”!
You know they always try to pick of song that is either irrelevant to the occasion or so obscure that no one knows it.

I've played various kinds of gigs so far in my career, restaurants, small bars, dance clubs, show clubs, cruise ships, and even concerts as the warm up act for the headliner.

I've done a lot of 'sonic wallpaper' gigs where we were supposed to be background music and not listened to. We did one about a year ago, it was a tech convention, and we played while the attendees were having dinner - all gentle instrumentals. We of course did our best, and more or less played for each others ears. When dinner was over, dozens of people stopped by to tell us how much they enjoyed our music.

We play a dinner gig at a yacht club where perhaps the last half to one hour is for dancing. Low volume (about 65db in front of the stage) and gentle so the people can talk during dinner. I've gotten used to the fact that people will seem like they are not listening, and at the end of the gig come up and say, "Thanks for a wonderful evening!"

They may seem like they aren't listening, but that doesn't mean they aren't listening.

And even if they are not and you are doing it just for the money that night; what's wrong with that? How many people here have day jobs that they do just for the money?

I tried to get partially out of music twice in my life to become a weekend warrior. I took day jobs and tried to become a "normal" citizen. I guess it was societal pressure that made me want to try that.

My first job was as a telephone installer/repairman. That was before cell phones when Ma Bell ruled the industry.

Climbing telephone poles is dangerous. There are two kinds of people who climb poles, those who have fallen off the pole and those who haven't fallen of a pole YET. You hold yourself up with two spikes, each has about 1/16-1/8" stuck in a splintered pole that thousands of spikes have torn up in the past.

So one day I had this pole to climb. It was in the back yard with 4 chain link fences intersecting at the pole. Something you don't want to straddle if you fall off the pole. There were also galvanized garbage pails to add insult to the injury.

I climbed the pole and opened the terminal, and I immediately realized that hundreds of paper wasps had built their home in the terminal and weren't too happy about having the lid removed. Well doing something quickly on the pole can certainly mean a "cut out" which means you have time to say about "Oh shi" before you hit the ground. Four fences, garbage pails, and an anatomical part of me that wouldn't like that.

So I slowly and carefully climbed down the pole with my heart pounding. Fortunately I didn't get bit.

Now if I get a bad audience (which is extremely rare) or have to learn a song I don't like, I think of the wasps and everything is fine.

A bad day playing music is better than a good day at any day gig I can think of.

--------

Art?

The problem I see in art, is that there is an elitist group that defines what good art is and what isn't good art. Often their blessings go to other people in the elitist group regardless of talent or lack of it.

I've seen worse than those white canvases with a few brush strokes on them. Especially when it comes to installations; stacks of milk cartons, found items thrown in a trash pile, and the worst one I've seen, an old discarded mattress up against the wall covered with donuts. Art? I think not.

But if the art elitists say it's art, the sheep will follow and claim it's art.

In the late 50s or 60s a monkey did paintings and until they found out it was the artist's monkey, the adjectives just kept flying and they were considered master pieces.

And what about Pollock? I saw a documentary where a woman living in a mobile home was given a Pollock her friend bought in a thrift store because it was the ugliest painting she has ever seen.

The woman kept it, a friend suggested it might be a Pollock and it might be worth millions.

She took the painting to art dealers and critics all over the country, and they all agreed it was a cheap imitation because it didn't have Pollock's soulful inspiration in it. And these people included curators in some of the top museums in the land.

Well after some time, someone found Pollocks fingerprints on the back, had the paint analyzed and found it to be the same as the ones that were on the front and the lady was an instant millionaire and the most respected people of the art elite had to eat crow.

------

It's easy to measure technical ability. As mentioned Andrew Wyeth had great technical skill, and as far as I'm concerned did great art. Norman Rockwell had great technical skill and most artists consider him an illustrator.

But technical ability doesn't make art. True art has to have something that transcends mere technical prowess. I've heard plenty of very fast bebop, country, and pop players who seem like they are just playing scales, and others who take those rapid notes and make melodies out of them.

I've heard bands doing their original songs that duplicated tired old chord progressions with uninspiring words and performed with no emotion. And I've heard original 12 bar blues tunes, performed by technically adequate musicians, but with so much soul they blew me away.

So you can't equate art with technical prowess - although if you have the talent for the art, the more technical ability you have with your tools, the better you can convey your art to your audience.

So what I think is art may not be your definition and that's OK.

Saturday at home I listened to the Moscow Philharmonic do Shostakovitch's 4th symphony - the one he didn't release until Stalin died because he feared for his very life. It's a wonderful piece of art. On the way to an errand my iPod played Neil Diamond's "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show" and I'm listening to the musicians, background singers and Neil and it moves me, it's also a wonderful piece of art. A few tunes later Muddy Water's "You Can't Lose What You Never Had" came on and it moves me in a different way - and I think it's a wonderful piece of art. That night Leilani sang "Unchained Melody", her vocals raised the hair on the back of my neck and as I looked out a few couples stopped dancing to stand there and stare at her in amazement and I thought the way we covered that song, the backing track, my wind synth playing, and especially Leilani's vocals made a great work of art.

I've been a musician all my life, I've played in jazz bands where the likes of Ira Sullivan, Duffy Jackson and others came to sit in, I've played in cover bands at singles bars trying to do it exactly like the record, I've warmed up for headliners like The Four Seasons, The Association, and various Motown stars while their records were number one on billboard, and I've also played seedy dives where the only reason the band was there is so one table couldn't hear the drug deal going on at the next table.

I have no regrets, and even though I'm of retirement age, I have no plans to retire. As long as I can fog a mirror and there is someone who will want to hear me, I'll play music. If nobody wants to pay me anymore, I'll do it in public parks, at the VA hospital, for charity events and other non-commercial venues.

In the late 1980s I met a guy playing the piano bar on a cruise ship. Irving Bloom who got his start playing piano in silent movie houses. At one time he was president of the New York local of the AFofM. He was 82 years young at the time, and was curious about the synthesizers that the new keyboard players in bands were bringing on the ship. He said that if he was still in his 70s he'd buy one. Irving never lost his enthusiasm for music, was an artful player and a good entertainer as well. When I'm 82 I hope to be that alive.

Irving is now playing in the 'great gig in the sky' and while he was here he touched the emotions of countless people.

No matter what you play, if you move the audience, it's good music, whether other musicians think so or not.

I'm very glad I've been a professional musician most of my life. If I had pursued the electronics engineering that I took in college, I'd have a lot more money right now, but would I have had a happier life so far? I doubt it.

Insights and incites by Notes

plus, nobody applauds when you fix a telephone line!


Hey Danny... this started out as your thread, didn't it? ten pages later, its still full of interesting and well-considered comments! thanks for getting this one rolling!

hey Notes,

You have a lot of interesting and insightful stories. You should consider writing a book. But not just a book of stories.. there are already too many of those.

Like these forum discussions where we analyze the past present and future of the music industry and illustrate our points with personal accounts, I think it would be a timely offering to write a book about the changing paradigm, illustrated with stories of how you've adapted to change in the industry.

There seems to be a bottomless pit of Musicians looking for the key to success, so the market for such a book should be quite large.

And you don't appear to have writer's block.

If you cut and pasted from your various posts in the forum, then edited it to follow an outline, you could probably start and finish the book in a weekend.

You do realize that Ms. Hull is playing a cover, right?

Right Mario . . . This does not happen as often as it did back in the day, I am guessing because I play for a more sophisticated clientele now. What I used to do was try to ignore them or if they persist I ask them to the mic to sing it and purposeless insert a few clammy chords here and there. Pretty soon the audience would turn on them.

Later,

I have a new slogan, "I will play for fun or money".

Some of the most fun I have ever had was playing charity events. No one was getting paid, we were all there for the same reason, there was no ego pressure to show up the group before you or after you. Food, drink, real gratitude, and fun, that was enough.

I have also had some terrible nights in some bars. I don't have to tell you what that entailed. These are the gigs you dread, but at least you have decent money in your pocket when you finally leave.

I have attended some club "jams" where there was no fun and no money. After I attended a few of those, it was obvious they did not match my new "fun or money" criteria.

So, if you don't have any money, but you want me to play, all you need to do is find a way for it to be fun. If you don't know how to have fun, then your place is not right place for me.

Thanks.

Hey Carl. I'm a bar owner, and I'm always looking for someone to play "just for fun". We can guarantee you a fun night, and maybe even some tips!

After all, why should I pay a pro when there are so many people willing to play for free?

Let's have some fun!

Carl,

I see you are in the advertising specialty business, t-shirts, mouse pads etc.etc. If I send you my business logos would you please send me a couple hundred "free" T-Shirts? And feel free to have as much fun producing them as you like.

Not trying to be a wise @$$ for any fun, just being one in an attempt to drive home a point.

And to reiterate, charities are wonderful I have and an currently doing all I can in that regard, so they were not even considered when I suggested playing for nothing is not a good thing for musicians to do.

Take care Carl.

Later,

Good for you Carl! Do what makes you happy!

Hi Carl. I like that! I play for fun or money! Mind if I use it? Bob. I would probably play at your club if you offered a fun evening for no money that turned out to be not such fun but I would only play once and probably not for very long.

When Carl talks about playing for fun, it kind of sounds like he’s talking about playing for friends at a private party. I can relate to that.

It’s not the equivalent of playing for free at a bar. BTW, I always HATED playing at bars!

Those as*holes always thought it was okay to make noise and ignore you while you played! Hehe. Those people don’t deserve live music. They only deserve a jukebox with quarters required after each song.

Live music should be reserved for people who will sit down, shut up and listen! ... Or LEAVE!

I wouldn’t bother playing for anyone who wouldn’t do those things.

And another thing, … NO REQUESTS!

I couldn’t possibly care less about what song you want to hear!

That’s the trouble with playing for pay. The person paying you wants to have a say in what music you play. That’s a deal breaker for me.

Always has been.

I can't believe this thread is still alive....

I used to play for free and for pay. I made a living with music for a number of years in a band....loved it all, every minute of it.... don't play out anymore so it doesn't matter to me at this point.....

Let it die a peaceful death, and play or not, as your heart leads.

Danny and 90 db, what cities are you in? I grew up in New Orleans, but I sure have been south of there too. I live just outside Orlando now, but I am willing to travel a bit for some real fun.

Fun for me New Orleans style is The Old Fart Jam, usually about the same time as Cruisin' the Coast. The OFJ is in a secret warehouse near the Superdome. One time we had 17 guitarist playing all at the same time. (1 bass, 1 drums, 2 keyboard players.) You can bring anything you want, but you have to carry it up a long flight of stairs, so combos are the norm. Yes, you can play any volume you want, no one will ever tell you to turn down. To me that is another kind of fun, playing on 11 through a tube amp. Fun in MS is The Biker Blow Out. Can't give out any details, just take my word for that one. Fun and money!

Still waiting on some real music fun in FL. I am thinking of about a place on I-Dr. that has belly dancers might be fun. I think I had better ask for money in case its not.

About those free T-Shirts...I spent hours working on a logo with Photoshop then sweated my buttocks off heat pressing the shirts. Had to ask for money for those, it wasn't fun. Fun or Money, its got to be one or the other.

Time for some BIAB fun.

Carl,

I grew up South of New Orleans, and you probably know there ain't much South of Nawlins man.

I guess it all boils down to what each of us consider fun. For example jamming with 16 other guitars in no way shape or form would fall under the fun column for me, lmao, and the volume thing list right under it as well. But that is why (dating myself here for sure) Howard Johnson add all the flavors.

My idea of music fun at my old age is entertaining for an hour or so for a music savvy audience who will not break out in a fight or fall down from an overdose. I do this about 75 - 100 times every year and love it.

Also I have discovered Street Jelly where I play online and because of the tipping feature I am able to give St. Jude Children Hospital and The Wounded Warrior Project anywhere from 100 - 250 bucks each month. To me this also is fun.

And I will concede this, no job is worth the money if it is not fun . . . but it ain't no disgrace getting paid while having fun either.

Best to you Carl

PS: I will check out your T-Shirt Quality and Pricing, even if I have to pay. :>

Later,

Gotta say Carl, 17 guitarists is at least 15 too many!

But since you had fun, that's cool.

Josie

Fortunately, all 17 guitarists were at the very least semi-pro. It was pretty amazing that it would work at all and there was only one song that was a true train wreck. I think the #1 thing that helped was the room was huge, we lined up on four walls, everyone has plenty of space with a PA stack in all the corners.

What I also liked was you could see and hear everyone's main rigs. I think every brand of everything was represented. Where else can you hear that?

It was a great way for a room full of Old Farts to feel young again for few hours.

Its time for me to bow out of this thread and go play my acoustic guitar quietly on the back porch. That's fun too.

Seriously Carl consider playing on Street Jelly, I look forward to seeing and hearing you.

Later,

Good one Josie, thanks.

Later,