That is I paid a profession musician to sit in my home studio for two hours and critique my music. Everything was on the table., Gear, technique, talent, ....philosophy of life.
I won't tell you his name to protect his reputation but he is a top talent in the industry fronting on guitar and vocals for a internally touring band. I knew him from the early days but we had not stayed in touch.
It was a great experience.... I still am internalizing it all, but I can tell you there are going to be changes coming.
I did the same a sax player (years ago) who took no prisoners as a teacher. I ended up stripping down the whole thing and building it again from basic building blocks
.... stripping down the whole thing and building it again from basic building blocks
That's about the story. I went too long without a critical critique of my goals for my music and how I was going about achieving them. A reevaluation is currently underway with some soul searching.
Pat, I know I have been somewhat quite on the whole matter. It is by intention.
I know, that you know, the Kübler-Ross five stages of grief, which are the series of emotional stages experienced when faced with death and dying: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. In a way, the realization of my poor musical skills after 20 years of studying and playing is akin to a death for me to deal with.
I am between denial and anger right now and I don't want to say anything stupid. For example, that I blame BIAB for this since it made making music too easy when I should have been working harder at it. Musicianship is not an entitlement that anyone can buy. But, I don't want to say that...
So I am dealing with this on my own right now. I will work it out and then be back soon.
I'm also looking forward to some of your comments and revelations. I'll share one of my recent revelations - just for those interested. Everybody's background in music is different, but for me - I've been crippled by not learning songs by watching a talented teacher, and NOT writing anything down (IMHO) - For years I've been overattached to tabs and written music, and because of this, I never learned the neck properly in terms of fluency with the many chords and inversions needed to play my favorite musical styles. In particular - I took a lesson from a renowned local guitar player, and explained that I enjoyed Les Paul and Chet Atkins style music - he proceeded to play a GREAT version of "Avalon" - knocked me out - without any apparent prep for the lesson. Granted this may be in his reportoire - but I've noticed when I learn a song from tabs and/or music - it doesn't become 'part of me' - and fades much faster. When you learn a song by watching a person play it, it is entirely a different experience - and substantially MORE time is spent with your fingers on the neck very close to the desired sound of the outcome, rather than "Translating the notation - music or tab" - into the correct places on the neck. Just my 2 cents, given my particular weaknesses and musical development. I'm sure my advice might apply to SOME small set of my PG Peers out there.
PS - and yes, that is a testament to my lack of reading fluency also, but how many people that did not grow up on an instrument that REQUIRED fluent reading (such as guitar) can fluently read chords and chord inversion quickly enough in songs with some of the complexity of chords and tempo as Chet Atkins - or other jazz players that use lots of chord melodies ? It's hard enough to read single notes fluently on the guitar in all keys - but chord voicings are even harder, especially if position is not provided.
Pat, I know I have been somewhat quite on the whole matter. It is by intention.
I know, that you know, the Kübler-Ross five stages of grief, which are the series of emotional stages experienced when faced with death and dying: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. In a way, the realization of my poor musical skills after 20 years of studying and playing is akin to a death for me to deal with.
I am between denial and anger right now and I don't want to say anything stupid. For example, that I blame BIAB for this since it made making music too easy when I should have been working harder at it. Musicianship is not an entitlement that anyone can buy. But, I don't want to say that...
So I am dealing with this on my own right now. I will work it out and then be back soon.
I wouldn't worry or loose too much sleep over it, they say that someone has to spend at least 10k hours on an instrument to sort of make good progress on it.
As long as you enjoy it that's the main thing, these professionals who do it for a living have a different outlook on it from the rest of us who mainly do it for a hobby.
Sometimes too I wish I had more natural musical ability but I have to admit most times too lazy at practising the guitar.
For what its worth i felt this way too after three lessons with my guy. Yes he was right about everything, but I could widdle a few tunes, I knew my theory.
It was some uyears ago. I decided to first just count everything until it was internalised, Everything meaning all my car radio, utube, everything until I knew exactly what bar and beat I was on, in my sleep. I then started taking whole notes (semibreves) through tunes, on root, then fifth, then third. I then took two notes from the chord, and so forth.
I resolved never, ever to widdle again.
I need to understand every note I play
I still remember the pain it was like someone stealing your girlfriend
It's always a good thing to get critiques.....especially the hard hitting gloves off no holds barred kind that get to the heart of the matter and solve problems that we want to try to rationalize away. Both when it comes to our gear, techniques, and writing.
As a song writer home recording enthusiast, I set out with 2 similar but different goals.
1. Get the music coming out of my studio up to the quality needed to stand side by side with professionally recorded and engineered studio quality stuff.....in other words, produce Broadcast Ready material. I accomplished this by being focused on that aspect... the technical side of things and learning what was needed to accomplish it. I participated and still do, in the forum sites where folks much better than I (production skills and chops and the ears to hear things I totally missed) are posting music and commenting on the music of others. I asked specific questions about what they heard in my tunes, and made course corrections and started to hear those things on my own. How to determine the need for EQ, compression, etc and when not to use it, and of course how much to use. It's an on going process but I feel I'm a good ways along on that journey but still have miles ahead.
2. Write better songs. Songs that would spark interest with publishers and libraries. That's one area where the Nashville Songwriters Association International has been a huge help to me. The NSAI evaluators have really helped, probably more than anything in working towards that goal with their honest, direct to the point song evaluations. You can send your songs in (as a member) and get folks who have actually written hits, and who are still active in the Nashville music scene today as writers and performers, to sit down and listen and then to comment in depth on your song. It can be a "take it easy on me" review or a hard hitting "I can take it .... tell me the truth" review. Your choice. I always ask for the most brutal, hard hitting, tell it like it is, kind of review. Don't sugar coat it....be honest. Sometimes it hurts when I have spent hours on a song and the review comes back saying I should seriously consider a major rewrite and shorten the song, and do this or that..... but once I set and ponder the words they said...... I realize they are correct. I've scrapped and stated over a few times based on their reports or refined and edited and reworked a song until it does shine and pass muster.
Beyond that....
As far as dealing with studio gear needed to get the recording done..... Simple is best. And spend a few bucks to get decent quality interfaces and microphones..... buy a few mastering plugs, and from that point..... digital is digital and the quality is there..... all you need to learn is how to get the best quality from the gear you have in the space you use. Changes are good when they are well thought out and move you back to the direction you really wanted to go.... because we all tend to get distracted and complacent, and that's not necessarily a good thing. That nice hard kick in the butt is often a needed thing.
I'm curious myself about what revelations you have had due to this experience of 2 hours.
Thanks guys. I appreciate your understanding. I know I can be somewhat of a drama king.
One thing we talked about was the fact that I was not happy with my guitar tone in my recordings. I played him a youtube vid and asked "how do I get that sound?" Johnny said my Fender Ultralight would not do that. He said my Amplitube VST would and he sat in my chair, with my strat and tweeted Amplitube to give just the right sound as he played. I was very happy to get the instruction on how to set up an amp and to hear the rich tone. After he left, I sat in the same chair, with the same guitar and with the same Amp settings and....you guessed it, I could not get the same tone as him. It must be something in in his playing. Then I looked down and saw something under the chair. It was his pick. He must have dropped it when he sat there. I picked it up, hoping, hoping, ...tried a few licks.... no joy. So it must be his fingers.
He took one look at my Strat and said, "that thing is jacked !!". I guess when I put 10's on a guitar setup for 9's it pulled the bridge why up. It has been like that for years. I thought it was OK. He said, "you can't play that". He turned it over, and opened the back panel, I give him a screwdriver and he adjusted two big screws to pull the bridge down. Then he retuned and said that should be better, "you need to keep your palm by the bridge for muting, that will help". I had no idea.
He looked at my Berhinger mixer going into my audio device of the PC. "what is that for?". I explained how it allowed me to have multiple inputs to my PCI card which only allowed two inputs. "OK, but it is coloring your sound!" He quickly adjusted my guitar to put it directly into the PCI card and bypass the mixer. The difference was noticeable even to my ears. He knew this just by looking at the setup.
Ya, we talked a lot about the 10,000 hour rule. He told me "you are a regular guy, you got a nice house and a nice family, you have a full time job". He told me he lives in his mothers basement and last thanksgiving sat on his bed in his underwear eating a chicken sandwich and playing guitar (he is in his late thirty's I would guess). Music and musicians ain't necessarily like you see on TV. It ain't all glamor for everyone.
To me it is one word, "my lack of musicality". Johnny said it is technique 101. We talked about rhythm. Not just in playing chords but more importantly in improvising lead playing. Playing in the pocket. Listening to the drummer. Talking with the instrument.
It is hard to admit to yourself that you are a musical hack. And hard to admit to people you don't really know. You guys all thought I was a prodigy on guitar, a musical savant, and now the truth comes out... It is very humbling, but the truth will set us free.
No worries man, I'm proud to say I'm much less talented than most folks around here! All the new gear in the world is not gonna make me better, yet I still have to acquire it.
BIAB/RB has come along way to help us with our 'musical issues'.
Aren't you a chemist? Who travels all over the world because your knowledge is sought after ?
In a world of infinite possibilities, the difference between wisdom and foolishness is determined by the hierarchy in our choices. Citing Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you've made choices based on a completely different set of needs than your buddy. Given the choice of devoting time to your career so your family can prosper and your kids can go to college, or choosing to live in Mama's basement so you can use all your time to trim 3 seconds off a guitar run... I'd be hard pressed to even consider the possibility that you chose poorly.
Comparing you to the young 'un who presumed to judge you... in my opinion, you come closer to "having it all" than he does. You have everything he will never have, PLUS 90% of what he does have. With a little discipline, you can have what he's got too... but he will NEVER have what you have. And that simple realization should be factored into your thinking here.
Its like the story we've all heard about determining when a jar is full. Is it full when you can't get any more rocks in? or when you can't fit more pebbles between the rocks? Or more sand between the pebbles? Or more water between the sand?
You put the rocks in first by taking care of the important stuff like education and career. You have the rest of your life to add pebbles and sand and put the finishing touches on the framework of a very good life. Especially since you are probably closing in on retirement.
Others can only judge us based on THEIR priorities... but we live by how well we make decisions that fulfill our OWN priorities. From where I stand, Dan.. your use of time has been far better than the other guitar player's.
There is no shame! Even the top players constantly go back to the basics. I do it all the time myself and constantly learn. I keep a maxim, "if you can learn something simpler then learn that first"
Pat, I appreciate your comments. It is not about the decisions made. I would not change the path I went down. I have accomplished a great amount and have been blessed. That has all been good.
It is a reality check about my long time passion and hobby with music. Besides work and family, music is all I have had for a very long time. Now I come to find that somehow, I have been deceived into thinking I could play better than I can. I am past the denial Stage. Ya, I can play, but I now clearly see that my guitar skills have not improved in years and they are no where near where I want them to be.
I am entering the anger stage, I am looking for things to blame. And BIAB is clearly in my sights. While it provided much, it also turned me in a direction away from crafting my skills on the guitar. Perhaps, BIAB is too good. I relied on it to do to much. I sat back as a viewer instead of a doer. There should have been more of me and less of the RTs in my projects. Not here to bad mouth BIAB, this is just where I currently am in the grieving process.
Ok, you guys want to hear it like it is? I'll tell ya like it is.
Years ago in a previous life I did things that would make most of you go wow, you played there? You did gigs with who? You traveled all over North America for 6 years, and was booked by the head man at the 3rd largest agency in the country? Yes I did.
The band came off the road in Richmond VA in 1974. We decided we were done with touring, we were going to sit down and write the best stuff we could and really go after a recording contract. The bandleader is from there and had good connections including one with the biggest studio in Richmond at that time. I was sitting in the control booth for many session watching the process. I saw keyboard players come in there who were absolutely awesome players. I mean real killers. They could read fly crap on sheet music in one try with feeling. They had chops for days. They were so damned good I felt like a 5 year old noodling on a kazoo. This from a guy who's played the big casino's in Vegas and worked some of the biggest nicest clubs in the country at the time.
Most of the guys in the studio were graduates from the UVA music department. One guy was so hot I found out he had a band that was doing Chick Corea/Keith Jarrett type of stuff in a local club and I went to check him out and was blown away. I'm decent, I have lots of experience, I can play but I'm nowhere near that level.
I started to think if these guys are in one studio in little ole Richmond VA who's in New York? Who's in LA? Who's in Nashville? Absolute transcendental virtuoso's that's who.
Get a grip guys. If you really, seriously think you have a half chance of making any kind of mark in the music business then Dan you need to walk your butt right over to the University of Chicago's music department and sign up for the next 4 years. And that's just the start. After that you still have to be the best player there to even get somebody's attention out in the real world.
That's the fact, Jack. You're up against people who treat this as their whole lives. A lot of them come from families with enough money they can support them while they learn their art. They've been playing with good teachers since they were 6 and then went to college. And they're still starving and going nowhere because the competition is so incredibly fierce.
I can go on like this for days, I have so many examples I know about personally and other's I've heard about.
I swear most of you have no idea of what I'm talking about here but I'll keep trying to get through. The top music schools in the world are cranking out unbelievable monster players by the thousands. Add them all up for the last 30 years since the schools started expanding their music departments and there's tens of thousands of musical killers walking around who would make you burn that guitar and take up knitting.
Treat it like the fun hobby it is and forget about doing something that's going to impress somebody working at a big studio in NY, LA or Nashville. I mean forget it, man.
How do I know none on this forum are that good? Because if one of you is that good you wouldn't be writing the stuff you post here. In other words you would be way above us mere mortals.
I haven't even touched on the music production schools. You think you know anything about recording, mixing and mastering? There's 4 year degree programs in that too where students get to play with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of the very best equipment there is at the biggest universities and colleges in every major city in the world. Us guys here with our little hundred buck interfaces and hundred buck mic's and stuff like that will make grads of these schools just laugh. Sure they'll have a nice home studio so they can lay down some tracks using Pro Tools that they can then email back to their main studio and finish it up there.
And just like the musician side of things, these wannabe recording engineers are absolutely starving. If they're lucky they'll find an unpaid internship at a working studio, do that for a year or two, nothing comes of it and they finally get into used car sales or something.
Music and studio production is FUN. Who wants to be stuck at a nondescript desk somewhere doing paperwork when they can be with the stars, getting the girls, traveling the world and having a blast? Everybody digs it, everybody envy's someone who's successful at it. Everybody want's to be that guy so what happens? Gazillions of people keep trying. Guess what? Everybody can't be that guy and that's it.
Final thought, whatever profession anybody here is in required education and experience. What makes anyone here think music and studio work is any different? These people are true pro's guys. You all know what that word means. It means professional, ya know? It's their lives, it's their world, they have the education, skills, experience and connections they made along the way to make it work.
Get a grip guys. If you really, seriously think you have a half chance of making any kind of mark in the music business then Dan you need to walk your butt right over to the University of Chicago's music department and sign up for the next 4 years. Bob
OK Bob, hope you feel better. I don't disagree with anything you said, except where did you get the idea I was trying to "make a mark in the music business". Give me a little credit, I am not delusional. I'm just frustrated and depressed - after all I am in morning.
Me, I like the stuff I'm doing - it's always been about the sound for me - if I like the sound of something I'm hearing, if it gives me goosebumps or makes me smile, or tickles my fancy, I like it and I don't care who or what made that happen.
My music collection that I play in my car for commuting, is comprised these days of nearly all unknown artists found on Noisetrade.
I have loads of fun making music and sometimes what I play and record makes me smile and gives me the good vibes from my favorite artists.
As for everyone using mixers at home, I've never understood that sacrificing of audio quality for patching convenience.
Because of employment, I do know lots of folks that are 'making a mark' in the music business, and the happiest ones, even those who have even been nominated for Grammys, drive around in normal cars with normal (not trophy) wives, with well-behaved kids, and give most of their money away.
Gosh, and here's me thinking that making Music was for the Fun and Pleasure of it, not some self-serving Holy Grail to cast before an unsuspecting Audience as self-perceived Perfection.
Well, there's thirteen hundred and fifty-two guitar pickers in nashville And they can pick more notes than the number of ants on a tennessee ant hill There's thirteen hundred and fifty-two guitar cases in nashville And anyone that unpacks his guitar can play twice as better than I will
Recently heard an interview with John Sebastian, author of this song. He said that he and the members of the band, the Spoonful, were actually in Nashville playing some big huge mega concert and were in a bar drinking when a then unknown 19 year old guitarist named Danny Gatton https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Danny%20Gatton took the stage and proceeded to rip them a new one via his guitar licks. He said there they were, big huge stars of rock and roll, slumming around, and here was this young kid playing circles around anything they had ever attempted to play themselves. Needless to say, Danny Gatton is now a guitar legend. You guys should check him out when you can. Awesome stuff!
you may not be where you want to be but are you prepared to do what it will take to get there and maybe loose something that you also value along the way
Originally Posted By: jazzmandan
Besides work and family, music is all I have had for a very long time
to me time is a precious gift we've been given how we choose to spend it is our choice and those choices will have consequences
“Treat it like the fun hobby it is and forget about doing something that's going to impress somebody working at a big studio in NY, LA or Nashville. I mean forget it, man.
How do I know none on this forum are that good? Because if one of you is that good you wouldn't be writing the stuff you post here.”
You make quite a few assumptions about the motives for people here, Bob. I think that most here are hobbyists, and admittedly so. What I don't understand is the vitriol in that last statement.
Well another thing is, musicians are competitive, invite a musician into your home, and if he is good most of them (now not all) will let you know that by playing their finest tunes, sure can make you feel a little humble and over awed of them, even in some cases make you play bad in their presence.
Jazzmammal (Bob) has a point, hell if we were all that good we wouldn't be using biab.
It's worth noting that even players of the skill level of Robert Conti sometimes take years off from playing to attend to their lives.
So many people today appear to confuse "music" and "the music business", as if they're one and the same. They are not, except by coincidence. If you can separate them in your own mind, then the question becomes more about what brings personal satisfaction to you as a person. Do we need people to tell us we're good players, do we need approval? Do we need to hear applause in some form?
If music is to be one's profession, then one needs the music business to survive. Most lifetime players ultimately survive by teaching music to others, not simply by playing and/or performing.
If music is simply a personal passion and pursuit, then it's more of a "spiritual" exercise and the satisfaction derived is its own end unto itself. In other words, the endorphins and dopamine our brains produce under the right circumstances provide a high level of emotional/intellectual satisfaction which may be all the fulfillment we need to experience.
Questions to ask include "Who am I doing this for?", "What am I trying to get out of this work and experience?", and "Is my musical satisfaction based on the reactions of others?".
Emulating other players and trying to learn what they are doing can be very rewarding. Creating your own sounds can be rewarding. BIAB is simply another tool and should not become a time vampire, the goal should be to spend as much quality time playing your instrument as possible and to learn as much as you can along the way. Software and electronics should not "cost" us learning time, they should only be used when they can enhance our learning process.
When we die, our recordings may or may not ever be heard again. Our instruments that we so love and cherish will be given away or sold off to others, maybe their new owners can play brilliantly and maybe they can't, but it will make little difference to us since we're dead.
The beauty of music is that it helps us to attain a "be here now" sort of state of consciousness, if we approach it with the desire that it will indeed do that.
In the end, all that matters is what and how we think and feel in the moment as we play. Everything you need from music is available in that moment, if we can find it.
There is no joy in comparing ourselves to others and why should we, other than to gauge where we're at and where we can go from there? Very poor music can earn a lot of dollars but that doesn't make it worth playing even if you can earn a lot of money doing it. Earning lots of money makes you a "musical success" in the eyes of many people, especially accountants. But, is there personal satisfaction and growth in that even though there is technical "success"?
I think that most of the players we admire and want to emulate were playing because they were addicted to the endorphins, dopamines, and all the rest of it that makes us as humans "feel" a certain way. The money and applause is simply gravy, certainly not the main course in their lives.
Play for your self, play because it makes you feel good. Play because it's fun and you can use the process of learning to develop as a person. If you are playing because you think it's the best way to pick up more chicks (or guys), you're possibly missing the point of what "music" is really all about. It's about your soul, whatever you envision that to be.
It's possible all the rest is illusion and delusion. If you can make yourself feel something worthwhile while playing then hopefully you can share it by playing it for others and they will get a similar feeling when they hear it.
"you may not be where you want to be but are you prepared to do what it will take to get there and maybe loose something that you also value along the way"
And you should pray that, when one gets there, having forsaken all others, it was worth it. IMO it never is. Ian
Most here want to improve, in hopes of getting more people to listen to their music. Nothing wrong with that.
Some here do have dreams of becoming musicians. I know a few myself. I sure ain't gonna be the one to tell them forget it (unless they are really bad; I am honest).
I would never presume I am the best at anything, but I have been lucky enough to work with serious talent a few times. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. I accomplished things I never thought I could/would in my life. Some long ago, some more recent, but if someone had dashed my hopes beforehand I would have missed those opportunities.
Dream big or go home. You'll accomplish nothing otherwise.
Whenever anybody posts a hard hitting thing like I did is going to get hammered which is why I rarely do it. I tend to get on a roll and then start to ramble and lose my edge a little. Whatever, don't take anything I say personally.
One thing to keep in mind is I'm just like everybody else here. A more less talented hobbyist at this point. I forgot to include that when I had my eyes blown wide open in the studio in Richmond that band broke up because we found out the hard way our writing sucked and we didn't want to call the agent and go back on the road for another several years which we could have easily done. I knew then I didn't have the chops to try to continue with music as a career.
I completely understand that turning Dan's point into a discourse about the music business looks at first glance like it's two separate things. It isn't because he's talking about being told by what sounds like a pro that his technique, the way he's set up his guitar and other things isn't cutting it and he's bummed out about it. He apparently thought he was better than he was. Well, that's exactly how I felt in 1974 and a few months of observing plus recording some demo's and jingles in that studio showed me where I ranked too. Nowhere. I freely admit it was a bitter pill. I thought I was a pro, one of the inner circle you know? I was on a studio produced album and several singles. Pfffft. Since then I've met dozens of guys out of the same era who did basically the same thing I did and got nowhere too and came to the same realization.
There's real pros and there's everybody else. Of course that's a generalization and there's exceptions but basically that's it.
Like Clint famously said "A man's gotta know his limitations". Only then can you realistically move on with your life.
Don't get discouraged and don't get upset just do what you can to the best of your abilities and have fun. My biggest takeaway is this: Music is good for the soul and I'll keep doing gigs and playing with Biab until I can't walk out the door any more because I love it. Simple as that but I have no illusions as to how good I really am.
Another little story. A good friend and pianist who's now gone is Eddie Greeley. His father was George Greeley who orchestrated lots of famous movies from the 30's and 40's. Eddie graduated from the UCLA music school.
We were talking about how deceptively simple little licks and phrases we all hear on records can trip up average players. We think hey I can do that Jerry Lee Lewis piano lick or Chuck Berry guitar thing or that little Beach Boys hook or whatever. The truth is the producer in the studio brought in an absolute killer to do those parts if the band member wasn't strong enough.
The guy was a monster who can do those little things just perfect with the perfect touch, timing, tone everything and do it effortlessly in one take. A real pro. Eddie used to say don't be fooled by that and think you're that good. How many times have we heard a recording of ourselves doing one of those seemingly simple licks and it just doesn't sound right?
And Dan, I really admire you for doing what you did. Like I said, it ain't easy realizing you're somewhat less that you thought you were. Just take it in stride, try to improve and move on.
For example, that I blame BIAB for this since it made making music too easy when I should have been working harder at it.
I agree with that part of it. Real Band has ruined me for playing. That software plays it better and with more imagination than I ever could, and it gets it right the first time, is always on time for rehearsal.... you all know the drill.
As a song writer home recording enthusiast, I set out with 2 similar but different goals.
1. Get the music coming out of my studio up to the quality needed to stand side by side with professionally recorded and engineered studio quality stuff.....in other words, produce Broadcast Ready material. <edited>
2. Write better songs. <edited>
You may be trying to become both a sprinter and a marathon runner here. It is rare that the songwriter or performer is also the whiz kid engineer. Every good songwriter I know can turn out so/so production. Every good producer/engineer I know writes acceptably well, but not "Grammy Winning Song Of The Year" level. You may find it a far less frustrating path with much more attainable goals to either pick one or the other, or settle for 50/50.
Wow, we are starting to compile some words of wisdom here. At this moment I am glad I started this thread and glad for all the input - it is ALL good.
It's like each contribution is someone stepping up to the mic and taking a solo. Damn, some really taste stuff. All coming from the heart. Who says you guys aren't pros? I am going to save this tread.
I am going to toss a log on the fire and wait for the flames.
I believe, and I have always believed, that there is a huge difference between "a musician" and "somebody who knows how to play an instrument". And here's where I draw that line in the sand.
Here you have a guy who can go out and play the hell out of his guitar and rip the blues licks until people stand on their chairs and cheer.
And there you have a guy who takes his guitar out to the little coffee shops and plays songwriter showcase and open mic night, and because he is playing for bozos who don't know good from bad, he meets a lukewarm, polite response.
I call "There" a musician. I call "Here" a guy who knows how to play an instrument. Musicians know music. Guys who can play an instrument know songs. Musicians have the skill and creativity to write lyrics and put them to music. The other group does not.
I also know WAY too many people who think they are musicians just because that's all they do. They sit around either their parents house or the house where they mooch lodging from their girlfriend who has bought into the hype of "Oh it's sooooo coooool that my boyfriend is an entertainer!!" and do nothing all day outside of the 6 times a month they gig. Most of them are essentially lazy people who refuse to get a job, and usually end up with some kind of medical condition later in life that requires them to beg the music community to pay their bills. I get invited to 5 of them a year anymore, and I refuse to attend any of them. They made the choice to think they are "real musicians", making the scene from jam night to jam night every night playing their 2 songs for free (which also keeps an established band without work that night while these wannabe types give their skill away for free), rather than getting a job with medical insurance, and it isn't my problem when they get sick.
Everything where I live is bands who never rehearse and just get together and wing the first 45 songs they can think of, or a handful of players who are in 5 bands, all playing the same 45 copy song list so they can interchange players. There are maybe a dozen people in town who actually write songs anymore. Most of the bands are trios with a non playing singer out front, which means that when the guitar solos the music just falls away. However, in order to not have to pay another member to play either keyboards or second guitar and make 20 bucks more per guy, they settle for that awful, empty sound. Plus these "full time" music wannabes have no money in their pocket, much less a bank account, and nobody can even afford to OWN keyboards. Also, in most cases, nobody in the band but the front singer can sing, so there is no harmony. I recall a band fronted by a very badly out of tune girl singer who thinks she is Stevie Nicks playing all that Fleetwood Mac music with no harmony vocals. Think about how deeply steeped in harmony those songs were. However, as long as the drunks in the bar don't care, the bands won't. As long as they make their $75 a night they don't care AT ALL about the music. (Funny, I thought music was supposed to be about music.) Bands who just want to play somewhere, anywhere, continue to drop their prices and undercut the other bands just so their drunken friends can come in and tell them how great they are as long as they play SKYNAAAAARRRRRRD!!!! I went to see a band a month ago at the request of the singer that was maybe the worst thing I ever heard. That singer had NO stage presence whatsoever, the band does not rehearse so they didn't know how to start and end songs. On one particular song, they went through the intro 4 times before the singer knew to come in. Had that been me in that band I would have walked out in embarrassment and gone back at closing time to pick up my gear. Of course had that been me in that band it would never have been booked until we DID rehearse. And if one of the members whined about rehearsing, they would be replaced the night they whined. Any band I am in in WILL rehearse until I say it's ready to play. That is a moot point anyway because I will never play cover music again. I would prefer to die on stage playing my own music than play covers to get cheap, empty applause that is applause for the song, and not for me performing it. Much the same reason I wouldn't say I was writing a book and then start it with "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." That's been done and I can't do it better than Dickens did it.
So yeah, reality has to set in at some point and we all need to realize that if it hasn't happened yet, it ain't gonna happen. And if one more person reminds me how old Jagger and McCartney are..... they were both somebody by age 20. I am 63 and this isn't the time to start over under some delusional idea that NOW is my time.
Remember that whatever it is you do for your living, maybe you are a carpenter or a plumber, some hack guitar player out there is saying "Man, I wish I could fix my own plumbing!" or "I wish I could make my own kitchen cabinets!" It seems to be human nature to want to do something "else", no matter what it is we do. I still don't know why people look at music as something magical. It's just one thing I know how to do. I was a good catcher when I was young. I cook, I wrote a column for a newspaper as well as an online newsletter, I can build with wood, fix my own cars, and I am really strong with computers. Tell somebody ALL of those things and they just grin. Then add "I used to play music" and suddenly they get all starry eyed and say "Wow! You used to play in a baaaaaaaaaaaand?" I take a GREAT deal of offense to that. It's one thing I know how to do. It does not define me. It does not make me better than anybody else and in fact it does not even make me a better me. It's just one thing I know how to do. Nobody ever said "Oh wow!! You know how to make seafood stew with handmade cornbread?"
and in fact it does not even make me a better me...
I disagree with you right about there. Understanding (and performing) music involves skills many do not have (or have not developed). I firmly believe the ability to read/play music develops fundamental skill sets many do not understand or appreciate.
2nd language math (in real time) discipline many others. ..
Music does improve your learning/comprehension; therefore affecting the better 'you'. I'm a firm believer in that. I can cite studies, but don't care to argue this. Just something for consideration.
Eddie, you stepped up to the mic for your solo and half the audience is heading for the door. That heavy rock stuff don't go over well with the Sr. Crowd. But that's OK, every band needs to blast the doors out once in a while. You got something to say an you said it. Now how about a soft melodic ballad....
As a song writer home recording enthusiast, I set out with 2 similar but different goals.
1. Get the music coming out of my studio up to the quality needed to stand side by side with professionally recorded and engineered studio quality stuff.....in other words, produce Broadcast Ready material. <edited>
2. Write better songs. <edited>
You may be trying to become both a sprinter and a marathon runner here. It is rare that the songwriter or performer is also the whiz kid engineer. Every good songwriter I know can turn out so/so production. Every good producer/engineer I know writes acceptably well, but not "Grammy Winning Song Of The Year" level. You may find it a far less frustrating path with much more attainable goals to either pick one or the other, or settle for 50/50.
Then...... just a bit further on, you mention all the things you do and are good at..... working with wood, fixing cars, computers and some other things too IIRC.....
No Ed, these skills are not mutually exclusive and I can point you to a bunch of folks who excel at both.... drop in to the Cakewalk Songs Forum and have a listen to some of the music written and recorded there. Heck, for that matter, visit my web site, have a listen and then you decide. Listen to the PG Showcase songs. There's lots of folks who are good at both skill sets. My goal is not to be a Grammy award winning recording engineer. It is simply to produce radio ready music both from the production POV as well as the writing POV. It's totally possible to do both. I know many folks who do. I'm still learning and improving my skills and chops on both.
To Dan's comments...... that big post was a fun read.....and accurate in some ways. I've played with a few folks who have forgotten more about music than I will probably ever know. And all the major music hubs are filled with such folks....all playing and singing on streets for tips, and on demo sessions for a few dollars an hour to pay the rent in a dump of an apartment they share with a few other similar situation starving musicians. Years back, you could get Trisha Yearwood and Garth Brooks to sing on your demo for $20/hr..... and the situation in Nashville is very similar today. Just go set in Tootsies and grab a beer and listen to the guy playing on the 5 foot square stage beside the door for tips.
Originally Posted By: Dan
I swear most of you have no idea of what I'm talking about here but I'll keep trying to get through. The top music schools in the world are cranking out unbelievable monster players by the thousands. Add them all up for the last 30 years since the schools started expanding their music departments and there's tens of thousands of musical killers walking around who would make you burn that guitar and take up knitting.
Treat it like the fun hobby it is and forget about doing something that's going to impress somebody working at a big studio in NY, LA or Nashville. I mean forget it, man.
How do I know none on this forum are that good? Because if one of you is that good you wouldn't be writing the stuff you post here. In other words you would be way above us mere mortals.
I don't know that I would have said it quite that way. That is downright insulting. People here are enjoying writing and creating music. And we have people here from all skill levels, beginners to pros. Personally, I think there are several writers here who do write marketable music. One thing I have learned in the decades I have been in the music business and playing at all sorts of levels and with some amazingly talented folks...... it's not necessarily how talented you are on a given instrument that determines if you succeed or not, or that you can write really good songs. It's more about who you know and who owes you a favor, and the luck of being in the right place at the right time. Talent is important, but it's not the most important thing in determining who makes it and who doesn't. There's a bunch of really, really, talented folks playing street corners and gigs for tips in NYC, LA, and Nashville. Most of those, sadly, will never make it.
And really, what you are describing is not unique to the music business. It applies to every business and every profession. Two guys start two plumbing or electrical, or car sales businesses. 20 years later, one is running the biggest business of it's kind in town and the other guy is working with 2 helpers in a small business or has gone into something different.
I understand, from having been in it for decades, that "making it" in the music business, is not easy, and most folks never will. I personally, do not write and record my songs for you, or anyone else for that matter to hear. I don't write and record thinking about a Grammy winning song or the fortune and fame that might come. I write and record because, and I suspect like the others here, and writers all around the world, I enjoy the creative process of writing, and I'm writing for me. I write and record because it's what I enjoy doing. I write and record because there's something I want to say, or a story I want to tell in the song. I write and record because it's FUN. If...and that's a big "if"..... if I ever get a major name cut, well, that would be the icing on the proverbial cake.
While I'm waiting for the next "Garth Brooks" to record one of my tunes... .. excuse me while I go and have some fun.
I don't know that I would have said it quite that way. That is downright insulting. People here are enjoying writing and creating music. And we have people here from all skill levels, beginners to pros.
Yeah, when I really start to get into something I write fast and my normal editing abilities tend to "ahem" deteriorate. I should have caught that and softened it up a bit. There's so many on these forums who think they have a clue about this or that and really don't but like someone said, Biab users are for most part hobbyists who are just trying to have some fun and that's great.
There are also those who are like the people Eddie referred to who go out for all these free jams, do a bunch of weak, unrehearsed gigs, sound like crap and think they're players. I agree with him that tends to [*****] me off too. [edit] Oh c'mon forum P me off is being censored? Gimme a break, now I'm really getting #*^%*!!.
Anyway, I'm certainly not saying anyone in this thread is like that, but there are others who are so I was generalizing which is always a bad idea.
kudos to everyone who has participated in this discussion! It's been one of those rare exchanges where many points of view were expressed intelligently and totally without any fighting! Now that we know it's possible, we should talk more often!
(now we return to the regularly scheduled intelligent conversation)
"Anyway, I'm certainly not saying anyone in this thread is like that, but there are others who are so I was generalizing which is always a bad idea."
Yeah, Bob. Bad idea. You have no idea who you're running down when you do it. There are others here who have actually had careers in the business besides yourself. And still do.
To recap:
“I swear most of you have no idea of what I'm talking about here but I'll keep trying to get through.”
And:
“There's so many on these forums who think they have a clue about this or that and really don't”
So, you came off “the road” in 1974. 40 years ago. And you are a font of knowledge on the music business, and songwriting?
Your attitude is so utterly condescending that it is hard to believe.
I'll ask again – do you write music, Bob? I'd love to hear some of it. Maybe we could all learn from your many years in the business.
No Ed, these skills are not mutually exclusive and I can point you to a bunch of folks who excel at both.... drop in to the Cakewalk Songs Forum and have a listen to some of the music written and recorded there.
I'll make sure to watch the next Grammy show and look for "best writer on the Cakewalk Songs Forum".
I am talking about being George Martin, Mutt Lange, Brian Wilson, Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, Tom Dowd, Jim Steinman, Steve Popovich, Phil Spector, Roy Thomas Baker, Jerry Wexler, Jimmy Iovine..... the REAL industry heavyweights. I don't know who is in that forum, and I won't be visiting to find out, but being the best writer and producer in your own home studio isn't what wins awards or gets you into the rock hall of fame. Remember, the best guy YOU know is likely not even on the radar of the real music business.
This is all about perspective. I never had the opportunity to live "the dream". I wanted to tour on the bus, play every 3rd day in another city, sell the arenas out, watch t-shirts sell faster than they could be produced, win the Grammy, have gold records on my wall. I am just not good enough. I lived the delusion that I was good enough but didn't have connections and that's all that was missing. It took until my 40s before I accepted the painful reality that the problem was my limited skill set. The best bands to come through my area were The Raspberries and The James Gang. They both contained members (Eric Carmen and Joe Walsh, respectively) who went on to bigger things, but their success as bands was limited in the biggest scope of things, yet still FAR beyond anything I ever did. I was in some really good bands, but good is a relative term. In that same bigger scope, no we weren't really all that good.
Honesty, while sometimes a bitter pill, is never a bad thing. Think about how many AWFUL singers you know that continue to attend every karaoke night and be laughed at because their "friends" continue to tell them they can sing. Is it fair of those "friends" to not be honest? Those same people wind up as the comic relief on American Idol.
When I look to the ultimate hybrid artist, I think of Todd Rundgren, who also belongs on that list of top producers (Bat Out Of Hell, anyone?). He writes it, he plays it, he sings it, he produces it, he engineers it, and he does much of it on software he wrote himself. However, he is a rare breed, and people have actually heard of him.
Without the Cakewalk Songs Forum.
Remember, perspective. What do YOU consider a success? That will color your input on discussions like this.
So, you came off “the road” in 1974. 40 years ago. And you are a font of knowledge on the music business, and songwriting?
That makes you what, 75-80 years old? Unless you came "off the road" in your mid 20s, in which case how much noise could you have made on "the road"? Shouldn't we all know you? Lennon, McCartney, Wilson, and Bob?
I'll ask again – do you write music, Bob? I'd love to hear some of it. Maybe we could all learn from your many years in the business.
I said our songwriting sucked, what more do you want? My whole point was I realized I wasn't as good as I thought I was and neither are a lot of people here. There I said it again, oops. I said a lot, not all. what's a lot? 20%, 40%? Pick a number. My downfall was I was good enough to get my foot in the door and think I had a chance. If I wasn't quite as good at the time I wouldn't have done much of anything and would have moved on much sooner.
I also didn't give my whole life's here story either. I said I quit the business as a career I didn't say I quit the business entirely. And no I'm not 75 but alas I'm not that far away from that. I was an AFM member for about 25 years and booking agent for about 6 years and I still do a lot of things now such as I'll be at the NAMM show next month. If you're going to be there let me know, we can get together. Not joking, I'm sure we'd get along fine in person. A beer or two solves lots of things.
Got a phone message from Johnny today. Wanted to know how I was doing. And what I was thinking about after our session. Boy, he has no idea!!
He said that maybe he was a little hard on things and he hoped he did not discourage me. This made me smile. Got to call him back tomorrow.
Wife asked me to invite him to Christmas dinner "with regular people" at our home... I just know this will all work out for the good. Like a Christmas miracle.
I started on-line lessons last week at http://guitarinfusion.com/ I had been watching this guy for several years so I know what he has to offer. So far so good.
Bob, go by the Westone booth and tell Karl and Kris (they will be some of the older guys that play in the 'silent' band) and tell them Scott said "Hi". Those guys are twin brothers, long time Westone employees and really started the whole in-ear monitor business. Good friends of mine. Or talk to Hank - he'll be the tallest Westone employee there.
Just got a chance to finally read through the entire thread -- quite an interesting discussion.
On one hand I am quite realistic about my singing talents, my writing, performing and recording skills -- and my chances of ever doing anything that amounts to much in the music business.
On the other hand, I suffer from a bit of the walter mitty syndrome, I am quite the dreamer. Unfortunately, my dreaming time often takes away from actually getting better (ha, ha).
I fancy myself to be an OK songwriter -- but I really know that I am not, especially when I listen to the great songs being recorded by the Avett Brothers, the Lumineers, Head and the Heart and the list goes on.
Maybe my biggest failing in songwriting so far has been not co-writing enough. Maybe 2015 will be the year I get off the stick. I will release a solo CD early in 2015 just to say I did it, though!! All with my $50 mic, $29 preamp and ancient a/d interface on my vista computer along with BIAB. If I am going to be crappy, I am going all out!
I have read articles of many of the old time stars of the past recording and producing albums on a laptop, with the new capabilities of digital music today you can create amazing sound inside a simple system that took 100s of thousands dollar of gear in years past. I also know some amazing musicians that never made it cause they had other goals, but still can play/entertain like the big names can.
I think calling out folks here and on other forums cause they are not household names is kind of bad form, and really short sighted. Not ever talented person wants to shine before a world stage, some just really enjoy and are adept at music, as well as other things. I don't consider myself a talented musician. But i can entertain friends and eve stranger at times. I am like Eddie in that i have several other talents, I am a fair carpenter, i owned and operated a successful alarm business like Guitarhacker does. I am a bonded and licensed Locksmith, but my day job is a manager of a contraction company.
Still one of my true deep interior loves is music. I play the guitar, and bass. not great but adequately. It make Me happy.
There are some very talented people here and on other forums. Some have more talent that big name "artist" They either are to busy making a life for themselves and their families, not in the right situation, or have other goals. That does not make them less talented. Look at some of the people that were mentioned above, or alluded to. Brian Wilson, famous, and considered a genius. Are all his songs great lyrical milestones? Not some were simple and even childish, what made him famous was his ability to layer sound. Bob Dylan, was he ever a great singer? Not really, but good enough to make his craft stand out. Actually many of his songs i just don't get. For most of these mentioned they wanted this, and positioned themselves carefully, and them with a ton of hard work, and a huge pile of luck.
Back to the cover issue again, some of the biggest names in the history of music were cover artist. Anyone ever know of one song Elvis Presley wrote? I can't think of one. All his originals were written by other song writers, and many of his hits were covers from other genres.
Just because someone does this for a hobby does not mean they are untalented, and just because someone makes it big does no mean they are, it just means that they are both doing what they want, and can do. Some cover work is great, some sucks, some original artist are great, some suck. it is a bad idea to put others in a box because what they do is not our cup of tea. Those who box others often get boxed as well.
All the new gear in the world is not gonna make me better, yet I still have to acquire it. 
.. excuse me while I go and have some fun.
