I have become a little hooked on these NPR Tiny desktop concerts that Floyd told us about a couple of days ago. They are a great way to discover new music.
Josie, I have long said that the term "DJ" has become ambiguous. Many, if not most, associate it with spinning discs of dance music, and a lot of people still do that. No one would argue that this constitutes musicianship.
However, the term has morphed to include people who use programs such as Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason to generate music on the fly. Frank Zappa borrowed the definition of music as being "organized sound" from a twentieth-century classical composer. I staunchly assert that what *these* DJs produce *is* music, and that they are, by definition, musicians.
I back this up with my signature line, which states that "my primary musical instrument is the personal computer." Of course, I play guitar, bass, and other instruments, but what I produce would not be possible without the use of adjunct programs and the PC itself—used in a musical fashion.
The logical next step in that parade is Mr. Don Gaynor, who cannot play an instrument, yet generates some exceptional tuneage. Does anyone care to argue that he is *not* a musician?
If the term musical instrument in contemporary terms has now been accepted/redefined include a personal computer or a turntable(s)...I guess so.
In my irrelevant opinion....no....they are not what I would define as a musician. Live venue mixers, entertainers who are very good at what they do even though I'm not interested in the genre(?). Maybe a derivative composer.
Personally speaking only, I do not consider my DAW or any program as a musical instrument. I consider each as tools from which (in my case) I can be a composer of original music/songs. A musician performs said recorded tracks.
Keith - I think the most interesting thing is what he is able to do "on the fly". (Even if it is with hours of practice. I am not sure how much "ad libbing" there is here). Most people that are using loops record them live and then mix them in as they play. Which is (in my opinion) a little boring while they are doing it. I don't think that is what he is doing here and this performance is anything but boring.
Hi Ryszard. I agree 100% with what you say (and Donald Gaynor is a good example). Thank you PG Music for giving us all this opportunity to make music (even those of us who play a musical instrument, but play it badly!)
Well, considering potatoes are buried in the dirt, can't see anything beyond what they're directly on top of. But then consider trees who stand tall and have great vision...
Maybe that's an apt description of yourself, don't know <grin>
There are some interesting prejudices being revealed here, of which I am certain those who hold them are completely unaware. Let me begin with an example from outside our community.
The most common reaction I get from musicians to whom I demonstrate BIAB is essentially, "That's cheating!" (This, in one case, from a man who still does step programming in the sequencer of his DAW.) It is similar to the response I have gotten when I mention the songwriting aid MasterWriter here. "That ain't how Gramps did it!"
THEY'RE ALL TOOLS, PEOPLE! But tools change, and the early adopters are often castigated for it. It happened to J. S. Bach, it happened to Stravinsky, and I am sure students of music history can name many others. Nearly everyone here is involved in computer-aided composition and arranging—that's what BIAB, RB, and PTPA are for. So I find it more than passing strange that anyone here would criticize others who do the same thing, but with different tools.
At some point these discussions usually arrive at the definition of music. Okay, here's a fact about me. I listen to ambient, experimental, and New Age stuff that I'm sure some of you would have trouble accepting as being music at all. There is often no discernible beat and no melody. But because I accept Zappa's borrowed definition of music as organized sound I have no problem with that.
Which brings me back to youse guys. Being the otherwise forward-thinking individuals that you are, I am always surprised when there is such vehement resistance to this idea. Just to be clear, when I say "DJ" in this context, I am NOT talking about turntablists (yes, it's a word). I am instead referring to someone who uses electronics, software, and occasionally keyboards (usually to trigger samples) to produce music/organized sound that did not exist before the performance. There is no question that it is music. Musical Improvisation is impromptu composition; ergo, the performer is a composer. And where does music come from? Instruments, right? Which leads to the inescapable (to me) conclusion that whatever was used to compose and perform that music, be it BIAB, Ableton, Reason together with a OC or Mac, is, again by definition, an instrument. Q.E.D.
You can't talk me out of it. I just wish some of you (not all, of course) could relax enough to accept nontraditional musicians and instruments.
They aren't musicians. They're just taking jobs from musicians because the general public is too ignorant to know the difference and the club owners won't pay a living wage for real musicians.
I thought we'd settled this topic several times before.
dang automobiles...took all the jobs away from the blacksmiths and buggy makers! and the people are too dang ignorant to realize how much better horse and buggy are...oh, and Get Off My Lawn!
Hi All. Sorry to bring up an old beaten to death topic but I was really interested to hear if anybody "modified" their point of view as a result of watching this particular video (or others like this).
I must say that I found this video found far more engaging than watching some girl crooning out bad songs with a ukulele or a guy sitting endlessly building loops with his guitar (but then again maybe that is just me).
Well, considering potatoes are buried in the dirt, can't see anything beyond what they're directly on top of. But then consider trees who stand tall and have great vision...
Maybe that's an apt description of yourself, don't know <grin>
Bob
What an astute observation, Bob. Once again, you prove the old adage about opinions.
They aren't musicians. They're just taking jobs from musicians because the general public is too ignorant to know the difference and the club owners won't pay a living wage for real musicians.
You'd be surprised about the wages some of those DJs earn. They often get more than a five piece band.
I think she swiped those shoes from Bootsy Collins....
In other news.....
A buddy of mine used to DJ for a time. He made more as a DJ than he did as a band.....
In fact, I too did some primitive DJ stuff in my day..... I mixed acoustic sets with spinning some record cuts....and made more doing that than I did in a band. Less gear too.
Is a DJ a musician....? Some probably are, especially the creative ones....... some, probably are not.
What defines a musician anyway? I think maybe.....The ability to coax sounds from inanimate objects? Wood and steel..... cow hides stretched on a ring of wood.... slats of ivory and ebony with mechanical linkages that strike steel strings...... or plastic buttons connected to silicon chips......
What about typing letters into a grid and selecting a style and pressing "play"? Does that qualify one as a musician?
Getting into slippery ground here...... before calling the kettle something or other......hummmmmm
As was pointed out... these things are simply tools....inanimate objects.... it takes the creative mind of the musician to realize the music that hides within each object or tool.
I'm more inclined to call him a technician. He's creating something, but he is essentially mixing loops.
But, isn't that the same thing most musicians do in a similar way? Why is it that one can recognize the playing of a Les Paul, or a Sonny Rollins, or an Alvin Lee, or the drumming of a Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa?
All of those have their licks and chops that they match and mix in different songs or tunes. They just play it note by note.
Remember the original guitar solo in Bill Haley's version of Rock Around the Clock played by Danny Cedrone? Do you think this was an original? Well it was an original by Danny Cedrone, but not original when played in Rock Around the Clock in 1954.
Here's the original: Rock the Joint from 1951, in the pre-Comets era when the band was still named The Saddlemen, even though the record was published after the name change. Even accomplished musicians rely on "pre-made" sequences.
Don't get me wrong. I play myself, but I also rely on prefabricated loops and tracks to enhance my playing's impression for the listener.
Transport yourself into the deepest rain forest. A guy carries a wooden stick, finds a fallen tree that's hollow and starts banging it with that wooden stick in a repeating pattern. Others hear that and start moving uncontrollably (something we now call dancing).
Is that guy, banging on the hollow tree a musician? Those who are dancing to the 'banging' would think so.
Think about it. Whatever tool you use to make others excited enough to make them move (dance), you have created something we call music.
If one is just spinning CDs/records then no a DJ is not a musician. If one is creating new music then yes a DJ is a musician.
If a DJ is creating new music using samples, loops etc then he is no different then us using BiaB's MIDI, RTs, RDs, loops and samples IMO.
I know a couple of disc spinner DJs who are also keyboard players. They can make more money spinning discs than playing in bands, unfortunately.
Originally Posted By: Ryszard
At some point these discussions usually arrive at the definition of music. Okay, here's a fact about me. I listen to ambient, experimental, and New Age stuff that I'm sure some of you would have trouble accepting as being music at all. There is often no discernible beat and no melody. But because I accept Zappa's borrowed definition of music as organized sound I have no problem with that.
You are not the only one. I have been listening to the same genre's for years. In fact I have a lot of it on vinyl!
I'm a little late to this party, and I have an early gig today so I haven't read all the posts, so excuse me if this has been said already.
IMO a DJ is not a musician. He/she may make music, but isn't a musician.
Let me make a comparison.
A person who makes art by pasting cut out images is not a painter, he/she is collagist. The collage may be beautiful and sell to collectors for big bucks, but that's beside the point.
In order for someone to be a musician, they have to play a musical instrument that is capable of reading any piece of at least single part music notation. That doesn't mean everyone has to read music to be a musician, but the instrument you play has to be one that in the hands of some musicians can do that.
If I write an original melody, notate it on a piece of sheet music, and put it in front of every DJ in the world, none of them can read it with their DJ equipment.
If I write 3 new melodic variations on a theme from Mozart and notate it, can a DJ play that?
Millions and millions of musicians can, even millions of bad ones. But the best DJ in the world can not.
Therefore DJs are not musicians but instead musical collagists.
That's not to say they aren't talented, that doesn't mean they don't create music, it just means they aren't musicians.
If we call DJs musicians, then we need to call people who create collages painters, and people who can write simple web pages (like myself) computer programmers.
Bob Norton: You (and perhaps others) should read my two posts for context. FWIW, Josie says she agrees with what I have said. Perhaps I should say that I haven't watched the video to which she posted a link. I've just been waiting to pounce the next time this subject came up again, 'cause I missed the last go-round. I know I'll take some heat for it, but I think it's worth it. The times they are a-changin'.
Some of you are clinging to your guns, which is to be expected, but I think I see some softening in the hearts of others. I like that.
90 dB, I think that ol' Igor, iconoclast that he was, would approve. There were riots after its premiere, but "The Rites Of Spring" is still being played and appreciated for the groundbreaking work that it is. Now the baton is being passed, and some of us old farts are sneering at the new kids.
I have to repeat this for those who have not read the entire discussion. The term "DJ" has two meanings now. The first is the one we are all familiar with: Someone who plays vinyl, disks, or audio files for the entertainment of others, often at dances. However skillfully they do it, it is simple playback of prerecorded material. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE MUSICIANS.
I think it is unfortunate that the term has been applied to a new group of performers who use electronics and digital media to do their thing. If another term had been chosen we might not be having this discussion. In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before. Again, read my previous posts to flesh this out.
Re: Organized sound: I have accepted this term as a definition of music from Frank Zappa, who borrowed it from a mentor/20th-century classical composer. Youse can look it up.
A person who makes art by pasting cut out images is not a painter, he/she is collagist.
In order for someone to be a musician, they have to play a musical instrument that is capable of reading any piece of at least single part music notation. That doesn't mean everyone has to read music to be a musician, but the instrument you play has to be one that in the hands of some musicians can do that.
If I write an original melody, notate it on a piece of sheet music, and put it in front of every DJ in the world, none of them can read it with their DJ equipment.
.... DJs are not musicians but instead musical collagists.
That's not to say they aren't talented, that doesn't mean they don't create music, it just means they aren't musicians.
If we call DJs musicians, then we need to call people who create collages painters, and people who can write simple web pages (like myself) computer programmers.
I don't think a "collagist" would classify themselves as a painter...... but they would certainly classify themselves as an artist. In the same way a sculptor doesn't paint, but is certainly an artist.
In the same way that a guitarist may not be able to play a piano and would not classify themselves as a piano player but would certainly classify themselves as musicians.
By whose standard does an instrument have to be able to be played to sheet music? That's like saying all communication has to take place using smoke signals. Call me crazy, but times and technology are making lots of things possible. If that guy has a drum pad sampler in his rig...and honestly, I did not watch much of that video..... and he tapped those pads, waaaa laaaa..... musical instrument capable of being played by following sheet music.
Set some sheet music in front of me for Bach's 79th cantata, or even twinkle twinkle little star and I will simply stare at the notes, but does that mean I'm not a musician because I can not read the sheet music and convert it to sound with my guitar?
I agree that if you simply spin records or mix recorded music using turntables .... no, that's a DJ in the strictest sense of the word and not exactly a musician..... however, if you are running samplers and loopers and doing it live to and with the records and other things that are under your control, then yes, I would classify that person as a musician..... certainly not a sheet music reading piano player, but definitely a musician since they are creating music on the fly.
When DJ's first became popular and started spinning records, I was on the side of the argument that non-musicians were taking jobs away from musicians...... however, that is no longer the case. Some of those folks are extremely talented with what they do. So I have to come down on the side that says, yes, a DJ can be a musician.
so, if this guy is not a musician then neither are piano players! he pushes buttons in a certain order and makes music...they push buttons in a certain order and make music!
but of course the guy is a musician! I will never understand why some folks are so close-minded to something new. him being labeled a musician does not take anything away from those of you who play a more classic instrument! I recall a time when rock artists were sneered at by music snobs because they were not playing it the way "they were supposed to"!
and that whole "their takin' our jobs" line is simply nonsense! they can only take your jobs if the audience likes them better! that's on you to up your game!
This has turned into another exercise in "DIFFERENCE IN KIND VS. DIFFERENCE IN DEGREE"
Differences in KIND occur across a large range of proficiency... (starting with the guy in the woods with a stick and a log. He can't read sheet music, but he has started a new KIND of behavior that will eventually lead to people who can.) ranging to the person like Michelangelo who excels at many kinds of artistic expression.
Differences in DEGREE reveal proficiency within a subset of the KIND. Subsets of ART are painter, collagist, sculptor, and many many more... including music.
People in one subset of the arts are almost always very specific in their focus, and therefore not proficient at all in the other subsets. It would be incorrect to say that a sculptor is not an artist because he lacks the skills of the painter. It would be equally false to say that an art student is not an artist because he/she cannot yet paint like Michelangelo. The terms "artist" (and "musician" ) do not imply excellence , only activity within a KIND of pursuit.
To say that an artist is not an artist because they don't perform at the proficiency of someone else in a different subset is false logic, for it then becomes an exercise in comparing apples and oranges.
If you bring notation into the picture as a "requirement", then you must consider the different KINDS of notation.. including MIDI. If MIDI were the notation kind, then many DJs COULD use that kind of notation to reproduce other peoples' works of art. But we should still remember that the original guy in the woods with a stick hadn't progressed to reading notation yet... yet he would be considered a primitive musician by the KIND of activity, if not by the DEGREE of his proficiency.
The arts have traditionally been defined very loosely and inclusively, because its the nature of creativity to venture into new territory.
“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.”
Richard -
If you believe that "playing" this:
Is the same thing as playing this:
I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority.
“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.”
Richard -
If you believe that "playing" this:
Is the same thing as playing this:
I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority.
I will say since he has a vision (maybe) and seems able to implement it, using those tools, he could be called an "artist" or better a "performing artist." Maybe that "dude" is even a genius, in whatever art form that is, but IMHO he is NOT a musician.
Of course today we call anyone who takes in O2 and expels CO2 on any street corner, who is in some reality TV show, is contemplating their own navel under a tree, or putting religious symbols in excrement - "artist."
Gentleman (and Josie): If you accept the output from these people's apparati as music, then they are by definition musicians. If you don't, there is no basis for further discussion.
“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.”
Richard -
If you believe that "playing" this:
Is the same thing as playing this:
I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority.
Regards,
Bob
Bob, a piano or synthesizer keyboard is not an instrument, either; it is an interface. The Novation LaunchPad is an interface for the Ableton Live DAW and performance program, which I DO consider an instrument. Why? Because people make music with it.
“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.”
Richard -
If you believe that "playing" this:
Is the same thing as playing this:
I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority.
Regards,
Bob
Bob, a piano or synthesizer keyboard is not an instrument, either; it is an interface. The Novation LaunchPad is an interface for the Ableton Live DAW and performance program, which I DO consider an instrument. Why? Because people make music with it.
R.
Thanks for clarifying that for me Professor.
As for what you “consider an instrument”......you can call a duck a chicken all you want, but it doesn't make it so, and the duck is sure to resent it.
My goodness, I have sort of stay out of this battle up to this point. I feel music, just like beauty, is in the ear/eye of the beholder. To sit an argue over it seems a bit crazy to me.
For me, music is expression. It's emotion via sound. I really don't care how it is created. If someone expresses themselves in a creative way, and they want to call it music, good for them. I may not like it, but I do like that they do! If that creation is heard by someone else who also enjoys it, and it moves them, good for them. Mission accomplished in my book.
We use different processes to achieve this. To look at a guitar and think it is a natural instrument is strange to me. It's a traditional instrument, but it's not like the guitar just happens in nature.
Quote:
To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd.
I don't know that anyone was.
I don't think you could compare most guitarists to him either.
What this guys appearance has to do with it, I'll never know. Again, could apply to many guitarists as well...or any other "musician."
An instrumentalist is someone who plays an instrument.
In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song.
As for what you “consider an instrument”......you can call a duck a chicken all you want, but it doesn't make it so, and the duck is sure to resent it.
Very true, and calling a piano a guitar, doesn't make it a guitar. But they are BOTH instruments. Just as a duck and chicken are both birds.
Perhaps I'm a little jaded on the whole "what is a musician" subject because I am a drummer. LOL
it takes the creative mind of the musician to realize the music that hides within each object or tool.
Great line! That is exactly what the good DJ's do. They "hear" the music hidden within all their tools and bring it forth for the audience. Thief that I am, I'm going to use that somewhere in the future.
My goodness, I have sort of stay out of this battle up to this point. I feel music, just like beauty, is in the ear/eye of the beholder. To sit an argue over it seems a bit crazy to me.
For me, music is expression. It's emotion via sound. I really don't care how it is created. If someone expresses themselves in a creative way, and they want to call it music, good for them. I may not like it, but I do like that they do! If that creation is heard by someone else who also enjoys it, and it moves them, good for them. Mission accomplished in my book.
We use different processes to achieve this. To look at a guitar and think it is a natural instrument is strange to me. It's a traditional instrument, but it's not like the guitar just happens in nature.
Quote:
To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd.
I don't know that anyone was.
I don't think you could compare most guitarists to him either.
What this guys appearance has to do with it, I'll never know. Again, could apply to many guitarists as well...or any other "musician."
An instrumentalist is someone who plays an instrument.
In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song.
1. The 'taking jobs' element is in there, repeats every 6 month or so on the forum, some saying yes, some saying no. 2. The argument about what constitutes a musician with the common threads of can/cannot read music, plays a real/not real instrument, composes or doesn't compose, etc. 3. Style elements 4. It is missing the element of whether or not a singer is a musician or not. C'mon all of you who say no, you need to weigh in here.
The question is actually - does it really matter what anyone says as to who is a musician and who is not?
If someone says those who are called DJs these days says they are musicians, what does it really matter? Perhaps it's an identity matter?
My sister is a straight-up studio singer and she recently did another gig this past week with the Anderson, IN symphony orchestra as a soloist. SHE says that she's not a real 'musician' because she has never composed or improvised. She can sing the socks off of anyone who has ever posted a song on this forum; in just about any style from coloratura soprano opera to R&B, to C&W, to pop, to jazz. That's just the facts. Google Heather Bays music to listen. But she says that I'm more 'musical' than she is, and I'm a hack, but I have written about a hundred songs, taught myself to play many instruments, etc. But I can't read music very well. I'm learning one of Chopin's simple preludes (I thin it's Opus 28 #4), but I'm struggling with it. Who cares? It's a beautiful song.
I also enjoy listening to the songs my kids love from the modern dubstep DJs. They are about the only crowd that are doing interesting stuff with synthesis/electronic music these days that has a public acceptance. Being a fan of synths since some of good stuff of the early 70's, it's refreshing to see/hear that the world of synthesizers and electronic music is not dead. Just bought my 14 year old an Akai XR-20, which is basically an MPC pre-loaded with sounds. He's into rap (clean, non-misogynistic stuff) and he is learning how to program drum patterns and lay in bass-lines. All from pads arranged in a non-keyboard fashion. He showed interest, and it's something for him to do besides baseball (on the JV team). He's also taking guitar lessons. Do I consider his beat making any less important than learning guitar? No. He also plays clarinet. Hasn't blown the clarinet in 3 years, took it off the shelf a couple weeks ago and he could play many of the tunes that he played while being the only 6th grader invited from his school to play in the Colorado Springs-wide middle school honor band. I'm not going to force him to play, because he enjoys it at will. If he enjoys making sounds creatively, I'm not going to stop him. He may someday invest in one of those Ableton controllers.
I remember back on this forum when the video of the Rick K. and the Allnighters drummer caused a stir as to whether he was a musician or not. Musician or not, he is the reason the Allnighters have a solid tour schedule. http://www.rickkandtheallnighters.com/tour/ all these years later.
If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result.
If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result.
My thoughts exactly!
And that's REALLY great to hear about your son. Kudos to you for letting him find his way.
I thought I would express myself one more time in direct reference to the video.
The music is not something I really care for. I don't hate it, but it's not my thing.
That being said, at 9m 45s something really cool happens. Both artists are smiling and the crowd is happily applauding. I'm not saying that has to be your goal, but it looks and sounds like they have accomplished theirs. It was the performance of their music that made that reaction happen. I'm not going to fault them because they didn't string wires across wood, or the equivalent, to do it.
For me it's not what they used to move people, it's that they moved them!
Related to the original post in this thread. I STRONGLY desire the Teenage Engineering OP-1 synth that this guy has in his kit - it's the white-ish Casio VL-Tone looking thing.
For you synthesizer geeks, go have a look at youtube videos of the OP-1. You're welcome.
This is a crazy topic. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer LOL!!
This is a crazy topic. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer LOL!!
Wise words Ray.
Every time this topic comes up, the same folks suggest that the people who refuse to call a DJ/Mixologist a musician must have an ulterior motive for their position.
It's kind of like having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce sitting in front of you and someone walks into the room and tells you that you're eating spaghetti. After all, the end result is the same in your belly.
When you point out that it's not spaghetti, they suggest that you must have a hidden agenda for resisting their mischaracterization of your Italian treat.
It's kind of like having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce sitting in front of you and someone walks into the room and tells you that you're eating spaghetti. After all, the end result is the same in your belly.
Actually, to me, it's more like you are having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce and someone comes in and says your not eating Italian. You asked them why and their response is "Because it's not spaghetti. ONLY spaghetti is real Italian."
You see, "Italian" and "Musician" are broad terms. "Rigatoni", "Spaghetti", "Guitarist", "Mixologist" are more specific. "DJ" is somewhat broad. I believe some DJ's are musicians. Some are not...example someone who talks on air at a radio station. The determining factor for me is, do they make music.
Quote:
There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer
That makes no sense to me. By your logic, a singer is a singer, a drummer is a drummer...then a pianist is a pianist, a cellist is a cellist, a trombonist is a trombonist. I feel, they are all musicians.
I'm sure I'm not changing any minds here, but so be it.
I think, in general, it has more to do with people feeling superior to others. From my experience, it's always someone who considers themselves a musician that points out all of the other people they feel are not musicians.
I would rather see people encouraged, which has a better chance of them learning MORE about music. From there, greatness can happen.
I've heard there are two ways to have the tallest building in town. Build a taller building, or tear all the rest down.
I think, in general, it has more to do with people feeling superior to others. From my experience, it's always someone who considers themselves a musician that points out all of the other people they feel are not musicians.
The only people I “feel” are not musicians are people who are not musicians, and by the way, I don’t “feel” it. I use my brain instead of my feelings.
I know it’s PC to make everyone “feel” good by lying to them, but it’s still a lie in the end.
Correctly labeling the myriad forms of the arts isn’t a put down for anyone. It just more accurately describes what the artist is doing.
Part of what separates the arts from the sciences is the subjectivity of art. It's not hard to get agreement in science... but in the arts its darn near impossible.
Definitions tend to be crafted by academics, who are usually highly influenced by the sciences... therefore, they typically use similar terminology to describe art. But art resists such rigid definition.
When something new happens, it takes a while before people notice, it takes longer before they understand and categorize it, and it takes even longer before academia formally defines it. Therefore, definitions tend to lag behind reality.
IMO, ten years from now fewer people will disagree that the guy in the video is a musician. But there may never be consensus... because art, by its nature, is subjective... we all perceive it differently and personally.
So which of the many different points of view get to be crowned as the "right" definition? It doesn't matter. Because as soon as you define art it changes into something different. Defining art empirically is like trying to make a map of where the bubbles are in a pot of boiling water.
Disclaimer: presented as my opinion, not as the one true definition
What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!
IMHO . . . The young lady is a musician, the cat operating the the switches is a sound man.
Later,
Ha Ha Danny. That is a good one...
Originally Posted By: Ryszard
Gentleman (and Josie): If you accept the output from these people's apparati as music, then they are by definition musicians. If you don't, there is no basis for further discussion.
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song.
I tend to agree Ryzard and HearToLearn
Originally Posted By: jford
Just because I like to sit back and eat popcorn.
Is your voice an instrument?
Interesting John. Especially now that you hear people are studying music at Berkley in "Voice".
Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result.
Now, press repeat......
I think the snobbishness around who is and who is not a musician has put off (and put down) a lot of people. A couple of years ago I was too intimated to even walk into our local music shop. Even the other day I was in there looking for monitors and I was playing some of my BIAB music through their PA. The young guy who was helping me was very impressed and told me so a number of times. Then this older guy walks in and literally turns up his nose and walks out....Time to move on I think and change the way we think.
Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
Related to the original post in this thread. I STRONGLY desire the Teenage Engineering OP-1 synth that this guy has in his kit - it's the white-ish Casio VL-Tone looking thing.
For you synthesizer geeks, go have a look at youtube videos of the OP-1. You're welcome.
Ha ha Scott. YES! But I also STRONGLY desire the time to get to know how to play it!
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
For me it's not what they used to move people, it's that they moved them!
What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!
What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!
This is a crazy topic. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer LOL!!
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
That doesn't mean a guitarist that cannot read music is not a musician. He is still playing an instrument that is capable of playing any piece of music in the hands of another musician.
If I write a new melody, any player of guitar, saxophone, piano, violin, accordion etc. who can read music can play it. No DJ in the world can because it hasn't been recorded yet.
That's a major difference to me.
DJs are entertainers, some are extremely skilled, but not musicians.
We have differences in nouns to identify things. When we start calling things by other names to include them into some group, we corrode the language and impair communication.
If we start calling DJs musicians, do we then have to call musicians DJs as well? After all, you are implying the two are interchangeable.
Do you get the right picture in your head when in conversation someone says, "My brother is a musician" when he spins records and plays samples?
And if you ask, "Oh, what instrument does he play?" will a turntable and Ableton "live" button array come into your mind before the answer comes back to you?
There is a difference in terminology because we want to be clear in communication.
I don't say this for some 'superiority' issue (you know they aren't real musicians or anything like that), it's just to define what they are by what they are doing.
Call him a DJ and I see him up there with the tools of his trade in his hands. Call him a musician and I see him with the tools of our trade in his hands. It's about communication to me.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
That doesn't mean a guitarist that cannot read music is not a musician. He is still playing an instrument that is capable of playing any piece of music in the hands of another musician.
If I write a new melody, any player of guitar, saxophone, piano, violin, accordion etc. who can read music can play it. No DJ in the world can because it hasn't been recorded yet.
That's a major difference to me.
DJs are entertainers, some are extremely skilled, but not musicians.
We have differences in nouns to identify things. When we start calling things by other names to include them into some group, we corrode the language and impair communication.
If we start calling DJs musicians, do we then have to call musicians DJs as well? After all, you are implying the two are interchangeable.
Do you get the right picture in your head when in conversation someone says, "My brother is a musician" when he spins records and plays samples?
And if you ask, "Oh, what instrument does he play?" will a turntable and Ableton "live" button array come into your mind before the answer comes back to you?
There is a difference in terminology because we want to be clear in communication.
I don't say this for some 'superiority' issue (you know they aren't real musicians or anything like that), it's just to define what they are by what they are doing.
Call him a DJ and I see him up there with the tools of his trade in his hands. Call him a musician and I see him with the tools of our trade in his hands. It's about communication to me.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Notes
You don't understand, Bob. After all, you're just someone who “gets up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretends to be a band!”
Rather odd criticism on a site devoted to creating backing tracks, no?
If I write a new melody, any player of guitar, saxophone, piano, violin, accordion etc. who can read music can play it. No DJ in the world can because it hasn't been recorded yet.
I think THIS is where a lot of people miss the mark. DJ CAN play notes! You need to get caught up with what DJ's. There was a time I would have agreed with you. Times have changed my friend. They can duplicate a melody that someone has play OR they can play something they themselves made...an original melody!
Quote:
MUSICIAN
: a person who writes, sings, or plays music
: a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist
I'm a lyricist. I can't imagine, for the life of me, someone saying that I didn't write the lyrics I have written because...
1-I didn't use a quill pen and actually "write" them like they did "back in the day."
2-I used a computer which isn't a pen or pencil or carvings on a cave wall!
3-I'm using a font that I, personally, didn't make. Someone else made the font, therefore the words and ideas (via letters in the font on my computer) I'm "assembling" aren't even mine.
We have differences in nouns to identify things. When we start calling things by other names to include them into some group, we corrode the language and impair communication.
If we start calling DJs musicians, do we then have to call musicians DJs as well? After all, you are implying the two are interchangeable.
I'm not saying not to differentiate. There are general nouns, and more specific nouns. It's not corroding the language to specify this.
By your argument we shouldn't call an orange a fruit, because an apple is a fruit, and they are clearly not the same thing?
"Fruit" and "Musician" are general terms. "Guitarist", "DJ" are more specific. I will say that "DJ" is a term that isn't AS specific though. It has several meanings.
Quote:
Do you get the right picture in your head when in conversation someone says, "My brother is a musician" when he spins records and plays samples?
And if you ask, "Oh, what instrument does he play?" will a turntable and Ableton "live" button array come into your mind before the answer comes back to you?
The fact they had to ask what instrument he plays proves that "musician" is a general term. Because it means different things to different people, the person had to clarify. That actually made my point.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
Surely what you said here is not what you meant? I can create a piece of "written music" with a range that can only be played on piano and, by this definition, if you play any other instrument with less range than a piano you are not a musician?
And, if the DJ's box has knobs, buttons and switches, allowing him to create musical notes, and he plays a melody with the box that can follow (or create) a written music piece, please explain again how he is not a musician!
Even with the backing tracks Bob is still a musician playing his horns. A DJ/Mixologist is all backing tracks. My son is a drummer and DJ. When he plays drums he's a musician, when he spin discs he's a DJ. That's how he refers to himself. There's nothing superior or inferior about being called a musician or a DJ. The two are separate jobs or callings.
Even with the backing tracks Bob is still a musician playing his horns. A DJ/Mixologist is all backing tracks. My son is a drummer and DJ. When he plays drums he's a musician, when he spin discs he's a DJ. That's how he refers to himself. There's nothing superior or inferior about being called a musician or a DJ. The two are separate jobs or callings.
To Ray, Bob Norton, and perhaps others: I have commented at least twice in this discussion that the term "DJ" has two meanings, and defined each. Although I cannot be certain, it appears that you have not read those remarks. If not, I respectfully suggest that you page back and do so. This discussion isn't about people who play recordings of any kind.
Even with the backing tracks Bob is still a musician playing his horns. A DJ/Mixologist is all backing tracks. My son is a drummer and DJ. When he plays drums he's a musician, when he spin discs he's a DJ. That's how he refers to himself. There's nothing superior or inferior about being called a musician or a DJ. The two are separate jobs or callings.
Ray, the definition of musician being put forth by Notes and others would seem to exclude your son.
Now you're saying a drummer is not a musician. There are a lot of old jokes about drummers not being musicians, but they are just jokes. You are just playing semantic games.
I DIDN'T say that! I believe a drummer IS a musician!! Notes said, "Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician."
Now you're saying a drummer is not a musician. There are a lot of old jokes about drummers not being musicians, but they are just jokes. You are just playing semantic games.
I DIDN'T say that! I believe a drummer IS a musician!! Notes said, "Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician."
Now you're saying a drummer is not a musician. There are a lot of old jokes about drummers not being musicians, but they are just jokes. You are just playing semantic games.
I DIDN'T say that! I believe a drummer IS a musician!! Notes said, "Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician."
Never heard of drum notation, Bugs?
Yeah Bugsey, get back to me when your pre-recorded drummer plays Für Elise!
What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here yet there are some who act so OLD with their heads set in concrete. I told my girls years ago I'm NEVER going to be that guy.
Things change guys. Cultural values evolve, language evolves and especially musical values evolve. People do things different ways now. If you could resurrect a high brow Victorian and have them listen to what most of the people in this thread think is good music what do you think that person would say about that? Why, what kind of noise is this?? This is music??? Blasphemy. A Strat is an instrument?? A drum kit?? How about a synthetic electric violin? You kidding me? That would kill them all over again.
Someome please 'splain to me how this isn't an instrument:
I saw this at the NAMM show and even noodled around with it a bit. Pretty cool and whoever posted the pic of the Push earlier, do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty old
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
Bob
As I can on my Akai drum pads. Apparently I am not a musician if I am playing my drum pads, keyboard MIDI controllers, Guitar MIDI controllers or my wind controller as all of them need a computer to make sounds. I am only a musician if I am playing my guitar. Now before anyone jumps on my @ss I can read music for all of my MIDI controllers as well as my guitar!
What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here yet there are some who act so OLD with their heads set in concrete. I told my girls years ago I'm NEVER going to be that guy.
Things change guys. Cultural values evolve, language evolves and especially musical values evolve. People do things different ways now. If you could resurrect a high brow Victorian and have them listen to what most of the people in this thread think is good music what do you think that person would say about that? Why, what kind of noise is this?? This is music??? Blasphemy. A Strat is an instrument?? A drum kit?? How about a synthetic electric violin? You kidding me? That would kill them all over again.
Someome please 'splain to me how this isn't an instrument:
I saw this at the NAMM show and even noodled around with it a bit. Pretty cool and whoever posted the pic of the Push earlier, do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here yet there are some who act so OLD with their heads set in concrete. I told my girls years ago I'm NEVER going to be that guy.
Things change guys. Cultural values evolve, language evolves and especially musical values evolve. People do things different ways now. If you could resurrect a high brow Victorian and have them listen to what most of the people in this thread think is good music what do you think that person would say about that? Why, what kind of noise is this?? This is music??? Blasphemy. A Strat is an instrument?? A drum kit?? How about a synthetic electric violin? You kidding me? That would kill them all over again.
Someome please 'splain to me how this isn't an instrument:
I saw this at the NAMM show and even noodled around with it a bit. Pretty cool and whoever posted the pic of the Push earlier, do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
But would it still look like one if a DJ played it?
I haven't seen a whole lot of DJ/Mixologist's since I'm not a fan of the genre, but the ones I have seen or watched videos of weren't using an instrument to play melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios or leads.
They were triggering loops, samples, drum tracks, etc. They weren't "playing" anything. I wasn't able to get through more than a few minutes of the clip Josie posted because the music was so obnoxious, so forgive me if the guy pulled out an instrument like the Linnstrument and actually "played" a song later in the clip.
If a DJ/Mixologist triggers his backing tracks and then pulls out an instrument and plays melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios and leads over those backing tracks, then he/she is a Musician/DJ/Mixologist and will probably stay as busy as he/she wants to as a professional performer.
As John cubed so sarcastically called it, they'll enter the "tree house" of the musicians if they actually play an instrument during their performance. Even if it's an unconventional instrument like the Linnstrument.
But would it still look like one if a DJ played it?
I haven't seen a whole lot of DJ/Mixologist's since I'm not a fan of the genre, but the ones I have seen or watched videos of weren't using an instrument to play melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios or leads.
They were triggering loops, samples, drum tracks, etc. They weren't "playing" anything. I wasn't able to get through more than a few minutes of the clip Josie posted because the music was so obnoxious, so forgive me if the guy pulled out an instrument like the Linnstrument and actually "played" a song later in the clip.
If a DJ/Mixologist triggers his backing tracks and then pulls out an instrument and plays melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios and leads over those backing tracks, then he/she is a Musician/DJ/Mixologist and will probably stay as busy as he/she wants to as a professional performer.
As John cubed so sarcastically called it, they'll enter the "tree house" of the musicians if they actually play an instrument during their performance. Even if it's an unconventional instrument like the Linnstrument.
Bob, I give you a TON of credit! Please know there is no sarcasm in that either. I believe we all have those types of music we don't like. To give a shot at listening to something you know you don't like to expand you mind...awesome my friend.
And believe me I get it! I had a trip to Chicago once that we stopped in a jazz club. I like some forms of Jazz, but not all. There was a drummer playing...I assumed warming up. The reason I thought he was warming up was there was also a guy on keys playing as well. BOTH were playing in different styles, tempos...not AT ALL the same song. And it kept going! I asked someone when then were going to start, and I wasn't kidding. The guy next to me, who was really into it, said it was free form jazz. I know and appreciate jazz, and like a lot of it. He was telling me the goal of this was to both play as opposite of each other as possible without being influenced by the other. Nothing was supposed to go together! Interesting concept that sounded horrible to me. I'm sure not all free form jazz is like that, but wow!
Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have.
On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned...
THE OPPOSING SIDE
I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha!
Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have.
On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned...
THE OPPOSING SIDE
I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha!
I equate what he is playing in his demo to the BIAB "musical" ability displayed in this video-
I see it that both the DJ playing his instrument and someone using this feature in BIAB can create music but cannot necessarily duplicate the same song again. In the same manner, any individual can also randomly pluck strings of a guitar, play random notes from a sax or trumpet creating music or musical notes but it is a musician who has the mastery to replicate melodies, harmonies and notes into a cohesive, repeatable duplicate composition called a song.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
<...snip...>
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Notes
You don't understand, Bob. After all, you're just someone who “gets up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretends to be a band!”
Rather odd criticism on a site devoted to creating backing tracks, no?
Regards,
Bob
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
<...snip...>
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Notes
You don't understand, Bob. After all, you're just someone who “gets up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretends to be a band!”
Rather odd criticism on a site devoted to creating backing tracks, no?
Regards,
Bob
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob-
Actually, I was agreeing with you. I was paraphrasing a previous poster who made the statement:
“What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!”
I see it that both the DJ playing his instrument and someone using this feature in BIAB can create music but cannot necessarily duplicate the same song again.
He replicates it as much as any other live musician would. It's a performance, so there will be subtle variations, but it's the same song.
Quote:
In the same manner, any individual can also randomly pluck strings of a guitar, play random notes from a sax or trumpet creating music or musical notes
Give me a break, what he is not as random as you are making it out to be. You make it seem as though anyone with no skill can sit at a guitar and randomly pick notes and have it sound as good as what he is doing. Please.
Quote:
but it is a musician who has the mastery to replicate melodies, harmonies and notes into a cohesive, repeatable duplicate composition called a song.
The fact the he, and many others do exactly that, has me believing...by your own definition...is making a song.
Can he/does he replicate his melodies...yes! Can he/does he replicate harmonies...yes! Is it a cohesive, and repeatable composition...yes! Look out world...he...made...a...song! But I'm sure you will find some other way to disagree. So...
I think I am done with this topic.
At some point you just have to look at people and realize that for some the facts don't matter.
For every point that is made, I can show you someone doing that very thing to counter it.
But it doesn't and won't ever matter to someone that doesn't want to change their mind. Evidence and proof don't matter. It ultimately comes down to people just disagreeing without valid points. They are just disagreeable.
I have SOOOOO much more respect for someone that just says "Yeah...to me that sounds like crap. I honestly HATE it with a passion. But they are skilled at playing their instrument, even if it's not like any instrument I've ever seen, and making whatever that noise is." LOL
I lose respect for people who are of the thinking of "That's not how I do it, so it's wrong."
Believe it or not, I've gained A LOT of respect for some people from this thread. I'm glad the discussion was had.
Thanks to all of you...even those with opposing views! It was neat to see the examples given and have me think a bit more about what a musician and song is! I even had the discussion with my family and showed them examples. How cool is it that things like this spark conversations like that?
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Well said in many ways. A few questions for you my good sir.
1-Is a person who composes and plays a keyboard with piano samples instead of an actual piano, a musician? (Bear in mind, this person did not record the piano samples on their own). Why or why not?
2-Is a "DJ" who goes into a recording studio and creates his own samples, meaning he actually records various sounds and manipulates them to what he needs for his song, THEN plays those sounds via his keyboard a musician? Why or why not?
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Um...well you said "makes music"...lol. I think to a point yes. He would have to be familiar with things like song structure, and meter to make that work. Those are essential to...creating music. You couldn't have a two year old take those clips and make a song. I do see your point though.
I think you meant, but could be wrong, is the person who pushes the record button, kind of thing, a musician. I would say no on that one.
Quote:
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
I don't believe so. Does he/she play an instrument besides mixing? Then he/she may be. But the act of mixing doesn't make you a musician in my book.
Quote:
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
It sounds like it would be to me. rhythm and pitch, understanding of hooks maybe. I would say yes. I get not as complex musically as classical music, but neither is most music.
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The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
No. But this is a flawed analogy. The DJ examples I gave aren't using a template any more than any other musician is using...song structure/form.
Interestingly, is the person who takes a piece of sheet music and plays to it not a musician?
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The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
Sorry, but your analogies don't seem to work. The nurse, by definition, is different than the doctor, by definition.
The DJ examples I gave, by definition of "musician", are musician.
Does this mean ALL DJ's are musicians. Not at all.
But to say none of them are, is not accurate either.
There are DJ's who are musicians. You would argue there isn't a single one that is.
And meanings of words do change. It's the nature of language. It's dynamic.
But it doesn't and won't ever matter to someone that doesn't want to change their mind. Evidence and proof don't matter. It ultimately comes down to people just disagreeing without valid points. They are just disagreeable.
This reminds me of the synth discussions in the eighties, poo poo, that's not real music..LOL. Those boxes are just synths in a different shape, where's the problem?
Josie, I am very glad you did. It has served to clarify everyone's thoughts no matter what stand they take. It's probably not a burning issue to anyone but me, but I immensely enjoyed the discussion. No one's feelings have been hurt, and it hasn't gotten personal except for some bizarre remarks about someone who might or might not have belonged to another forum entirely. I'd like to thank you for making the original post.
Oh dear. I have the feeling of "I wish I'd never started that"
Ok, I said I was going to move on, as in not respond further, but when I saw this, I felt the need to.
I in NO way regret this discussion. I'm very happy it happened. I doubt I changed any minds with my contribution, or lack there of.
In my home, though, it was great to hear my wife's and children's opinions. It got a family talking. I feel that way in this forum too.
Ultimately it comes down to opinions. If I don't agree with someone, doesn't mean I feel they aren't entitled to opinion. We simply see things differently. I don't dislike anyone over this FOR SURE.
When I say I need to move on, it has less to do with me being mad, and more to do with me getting my work done! LOL Actually, that's pretty much entirely it.
Yup, I use samples, loops, virtual synths, drum machines, computer-aided composition software (BIAB and Reason), and a few traditional instruments, as well as my PC to do what I do. It doesn't happen in real time, though, and I do play some bass, guitar, and harps, which might mess with the curve for some. But I don't think anyone will argue that what I create is not music, or that I am not a musician. Yes, I can play guitar and sing without any of that. But to do what I love I need all of it.
Actually, I was agreeing with you. I was paraphrasing a previous poster who made the statement:
“What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!”
I could have made the reference more clear.
Regards,
Bob
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Bob
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
Well said in many ways. A few questions for you my good sir.
1-Is a person who composes and plays a keyboard with piano samples instead of an actual piano, a musician? (Bear in mind, this person did not record the piano samples on their own). Why or why not?
2-Is a "DJ" who goes into a recording studio and creates his own samples, meaning he actually records various sounds and manipulates them to what he needs for his song, THEN plays those sounds via his keyboard a musician? Why or why not?
1) IMHO yes. A sample is a very different thing from a loop.
2) Depends on the various sounds and what kind of keyboard he/she is playing them on.
And if the DJ can also play keyboard he/she can be both a musician and a DJ. They are not mutually exclusive.
In the early 80s I played in a 4 piece group that classified itself as "BJs" - Band-Jocks. Play a few live, spin a couple of recordings, play a few more live, etc. Not a bad idea. It didn't go over well, perhaps it was just ahead of its time.
There are from time to time songs a client wants to hear and that may be either inappropriate for us to learn, or too studio intensive for a duo to properly cover. I'll happily "DJ" them during our act, and even noodle along on the guitar while doing so.
There is nothing wrong with various ways to make music. Whether you are pushing buttons on Ableton Live, assembling loops, using an auto-accompaniment app like BiaB, or playing a piano.
There is nothing degrading about being a DJ or making music by assembling loops of what other people have already played. There are different talents involved.
Personally, I'm in awe of what some people can do with sampled loops, a skill I've never wanted to learn.
But we have specific terms for specific things, and when we start using those terms incorrectly, we impede communication.
Since this conversation started, I've taken the liberty to ask non-musicians - some friends - some regular customers about it. I usually pose the question as, which of these would you call musicians, pianists, guitarists, saxophonists, singers, drummers, DJs. Nobody picks DJs.
IMHO that's a good thing because the skills involved in both 'art forms' are different.
So call it what you want. I agree with both my own reasoning and what the general public perceives, DJs make music but aren't musicians.
Machine Translation with a little correction: Michael is not fine, Michael is not fine, Michael is not fine, his nose is all red. Hacking (wood) is difficult for him, to hack is difficult hacking is hard for him and cough plagues him very much. Because Michael is really bad off, all sing very softly now this song. Is the old Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive? Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, he's still alive. Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, does not die.
Michael is sick, Michael is sick, Michael is sick, we will also be anxious and scared. What shall we do then just what are we supposed to do only what are we supposed to just do so, he must now take a rest. Because Michael is really bad off, we all together hum our song. Mmh ...
Michael is half dead, Michael is half dead, Michael is half dead, we have our hands full with him. He is now on the plank, he is now on the plank, He is now on the plank and he does not say much. Because with Michael it's now coming to an end, we all fall quiet for our song. ...
Come on, let's go to the grave visit him once. Just look, a miracle has happened. Dr Michl's not dead, fortunately, therefore we sing the song as loud as we can sing. Is the old Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive? Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, he's still alive. Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, does not die.
Depends on the various sounds and what kind of keyboard he/she is playing them on.
First, , thanks for you reply. It was well thought out for sure! I hope you don't mind me asking, as I am not challenging your opinion so much as trying to understand.
1-So the type of sound is what determines if it is an instrument, not if it is "pitched" to, as an example, key? Am I understanding that correctly?
2-The input device would determine if the person is a musician or not? Not if the person is using music theory, or creating music? More specifically, a piano controller would make the person a musician, however using a keypad controller (even if mapped as a piano) would negate the person as a musician?
As far as meanings of words, it is a natural part of language to have words meanings change or even evolve. Gay, rubbers, sick, bad...all examples.
Just because it is the general consensus doesn't mean it isn't already changing. The fact that we have people in this discussion with opposing views shows there is a shift. We are not all here agreeing on the meaning.
Technology is one of those things that really pushes change in wording. I don't care how many people in 1995 would all agree that they know exactly what a phone is. It is not the thing I carry in my pocket today! The meaning of "phone" has changed, as is the definition of musician.
Just my two cents. I get the feeling I'm getting two cents back in change though
Seriously, thanks for you well thought out, and well exampled posts. I truly enjoy them!
Threads like this are all in good fun, no offense intended to anybody. Btw, someone said maybe I'm not the oldest one in this thread? I'll be 70 in November and everybody is invited on my lawn...just bring some beer.
Anybody besides me recognize Jordan Rudess in that second NAMM show vid posted above? He's the leader of Dream Theater and is one of the monster keyboard players of our time, check him out on YT. Right behind him is the Hammond booth and I was standing right there off to the side while he was playing around with the Linninstrument.
MUSICIAN: 1) a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.
2) any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.
MUSIC: 1) an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2) the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3) musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4) the written or printed score of a musical composition.
I'm not going to cover the "music" definitions as I just wanted to make the point that some DJ's are in fact, highly skilled in orchestration, production and performance of music. To me, that is a musician!
Here is the type of DJ I speak of that I would, hands down, consider a musician. Not a musician?
I will gladly concede that they are not all like him; AND there are many others who are. I don't understand how someone could say he isn't a musician. Using what standard?
Let's see...
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RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY: MUSICIAN: a person who performs OR composes music
He is performing without a doubt here. He also composes. Also, for the record, I don't think you could argue that they are not cohesive or structure. He is playing along to himself, included lead vocal and harmony lines!
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------------------------------------- FUNK & WAGNALL'S standard desk dictionary:
MUSICIAN: 1) A professional performer or composer of music
He is no doubt a professional performer of music. People dance to the sounds from his performance. He is paid as well.
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2) one skilled in performing or composing music
I don't think anyone could argue this doesn't take skill. It's probably more skill than most of us have!
MUSICIAN: 1) a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.
This DJ has made it his profession performing his music...and others! Which mean he is also duplicating his efforts. It's not random as some would imply.
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2) any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.
He is a skilled professional, but wouldn't even have to be.
Again, there are many DJ's who are not musicians. But there are many, and a growing number as the technology grows and improves, that are using it as musicians!
I don't know if it's the shape of the button you push, or what what the button is made of that seems to make some a musician or not. To me, that seems to be more so what people have the problem with.
If it's plastic and on a simulated piano keyboard...musician.
If it's rubber and on anything that doesn't look like a traditional instrument, then the person is not a musician.
It's not about weather or not the person is actually performing something people dance to or enjoy listening to.
It's not about the skill level involved in their performance.
Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have.
On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned...
THE OPPOSING SIDE
I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha!
Enjoyed that quite a bit, and I'm probably well on the old side of the bell curve for this type of music.
Ha! Nope. I just love to learn. By learning more about others and how they think, I also find a bit more about how I think
This would probably surprise many of you, but I have complained to my wife MANY times when I see certain DJ's on TV "performing" by basically pushing play, waving their hands in the air, and every so often adjusting the volume knob like the are really doing something.
Actually, the real question is why they are even called DJs when there are apparently no disks involved. I don't think computer hard disks count, unless you are actually jockeying them around, which of course is bad for the disks.
Exactly, John. The term has morphed in a way that is not obvious unless one has been paying close attention. I had my eyes opened while reading publications such as Future Music, in which detailed looks at these "DJs" gear, software, and creative processes made it clear that they were working at a level far above that of a traditional disk jockey.
Bob, I posted definitions of the two meanings on page 1 and 2 of this discussion. Have you read them? I can't be certain, but it appears that you have not. I agree that the use of the term is unfortunate in the case of the people I am talking about. However, I have been looking at this genre for years, and my conclusion is that people who meet the second meaning are, in fact, musos.
90 db, rather than repeatedly posting gifs of the "beating a dead horse", why don't you just allow the people who are continuing with the conversation to do just that?
I like you, and respect you, but feel you are bordering on rude with what you are doing. I also have read enough of your posts to believe this would not be your intent what-so-ever.
I am simply waiting to see if someone ends up finding a term to describe the people who are currently labeled as DJ's but display musicianship not typically associated with the term "DJ."
If they do, I would like to start using it.
If they don't, maybe we coin one!
So far, I've learned "mixologist" but don't know if that is really the term to use.
this has been a great conversation...for me it comes down to something quite simple...
if you are making music you are a musician.
the term "DJ" is an old one that used to mean someone who simply spins discs and maybe entertains by adding banter between/during the plays. but that is an outdated definition.
folks like the one in the original video Josie posted are obviously musicians...they are just creating music in a way that is unfamiliar to more classic musicians hence the confusion and obstinence we sometimes see!
this is not new as someone else pointed out earlier. each time something new comes along there is a group who refuse to acknowledge and even choose to denigrate it. but that is just their loss!
"90 db, rather than repeatedly posting gifs of the "beating a dead horse", why don't you just allow the people who are continuing with the conversation to do just that?
I like you, and respect you, but feel you are bordering on rude with what you are doing."
OK, my last post on this topic. All the DJs I've seen including my son are spinning discs and doing some mixing. This seems to be the majority of DJs. They are not musicians. Anyone creating music on any instrument is a musician. There has to be some personal input. This doesn't include those who let a computer compose music for them. I use backing tracks to accompany my playing on solo gigs. Backing tracks are just that, background accompaniment. The focus is on my playing.
Josie, I have long said that the term "DJ" has become ambiguous. Many, if not most, associate it with spinning discs of dance music, and a lot of people still do that. No one would argue that this constitutes musicianship.
However, the term has morphed to include people who use programs such as Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason to generate music on the fly. Frank Zappa borrowed the definition of music as being "organized sound" from a twentieth-century classical composer. I staunchly assert that what *these* DJs produce *is* music, and that they are, by definition, musicians.
I back this up with my signature line, which states that "my primary musical instrument is the personal computer." Of course, I play guitar, bass, and other instruments, but what I produce would not be possible without the use of adjunct programs and the PC itself—used in a musical fashion.
The logical next step in that parade is Mr. Don Gaynor, who cannot play an instrument, yet generates some exceptional tuneage. Does anyone care to argue that he is *not* a musician?
Josie, I have long said that the term "DJ" has become ambiguous. Many, if not most, associate it with spinning discs of dance music, and a lot of people still do that. No one would argue that this constitutes musicianship.
However, the term has morphed to include people who use programs such as Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason to generate music on the fly. Frank Zappa borrowed the definition of music as being "organized sound" from a twentieth-century classical composer. I staunchly assert that what *these* DJs produce *is* music, and that they are, by definition, musicians.
I back this up with my signature line, which states that "my primary musical instrument is the personal computer." Of course, I play guitar, bass, and other instruments, but what I produce would not be possible without the use of adjunct programs and the PC itself—used in a musical fashion.
The logical next step in that parade is Mr. Don Gaynor, who cannot play an instrument, yet generates some exceptional tuneage. Does anyone care to argue that he is *not* a musician?
Third post in the discussion.
Hmmm...... Have we reached the point now in this thread where we're not only repeating our positions "ad nauseam", but we're also going to go back and re-post quotes of ourselves from earlier in the thread?
Looks like we have.
Jeez. It's no wonder that 90dB keeps posting gif's of dead horses being beaten.
90 db, rather than repeatedly posting gifs of the "beating a dead horse", why don't you just allow the people who are continuing with the conversation to do just that?
HTL, (You really ought to stick a name to that.)
The conversation isn't being continued. It's just being regurgitated endlessly.
I know some people who don't think country players are musicians. I know others who think jazz musicians only make noise and are not real musicians. I know a lot of people who think those doing rap are not musicians.
1) The goal of discussion isn't to bring everyone in the room to the same opinion... it is to obtain an awareness that is bigger than personal opinion, one based on the thinking of many minds. There is value in that for anyone who wants it.
2) Good discussion is an art form. In order to obtain it there must be "parliamentary rules" that make it possible for people to express their ideas without being punished.
3) All the rules of discussion revolve around preserving the dignity of everyone in the discussion. If you can accomplish that, you can have conversations on any topic without fighting.
4) Without that agreed upon respect what happens is that people seek to "win" by mocking anyone who disagrees with them. Worst case scenario is when mocking degenerates to personal attacks.
5) In the days of the open forums of discussion the ancients really understood the art of debate. They identified and catalogued most (if not all) of the false arguments and explained why they are false. To this crowd it was generally accepted that the person with the weakest argument would be the first to resort to fallacious reasoning or personal attacks. To them such an approach was automatically interpreted as an implied defeat.
My hat is off To all those who have tried to observe the parliamentary rules of discussion. That speaks well of your open-mindedness and respect for people, as well as your respect for clarity in communication.
Bob, I posted definitions of the two meanings on page 1 and 2 of this discussion. Have you read them? I can't be certain, but it appears that you have not. <...>
Richard
Richard, I read all the definitions, and browsed dictionaries on the Internet as well. It seems that the term musician is open to interpretation.
Take this as a worse case example (one I feel that you won't included in your definition of musician).
A person buys an old, antique player piano. Puts the piano roll in it, winds it up, and presses the play switch. Technically, that person played the musical instrumet. Does that make he/she a musician? What if he/she doesn't know an A from a Bb, what any of the black and white keys represent, or anything else about music?
Or a modern similarity.
A person buys a piano with a disk drive, like a clavinova. This person knows nothing about music, but likes the idea of a piano in the house, so he/she buys disks from Yamaha and puts them in the clavinova so it plays nice piano music. Technically that person is playing a musical instrument.
Is either of the above a musician?
On the other hand Andre Watts can play virtually any piece of music put in front of him on the piano. He is the opposite extreme.
Most of us fall somewhere in between. There is a line between the two that separates musicians from non-musicians So where a person starts/stops being a musician is just a matter of where each of us draws the bar. And the bar seems to be different between you and me.
Since the various definitions of music seem to be open to interpretation, and some actually seem to conflict a bit with each other, I'm afraid we will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree.
I'm not going to convince you that the guy playing pre-recorded loops in Ableton Live is not a musician, and you are not going to convince me he is. And that's OK.
Most of us fall somewhere in between. There is a line between the two that separates musicians from non-musicians So where a person starts/stops being a musician is just a matter of where each of us draws the bar. And the bar seems to be different between you and me.
Since the various definitions of music seem to be open to interpretation, and some actually seem to conflict a bit with each other, I'm afraid we will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree.
I'm not going to convince you that the guy playing pre-recorded loops in Ableton Live is not a musician, and you are not going to convince me he is. And that's OK.
I know for myself, I am always looking to find out how people determine where they stand on things. It's not that I have a problem with that they have a stance, it's more about what it is
My question to you then is, if a different guy/gal stepped up to that ableton live set up, cleared out all of the loops, and said "I'm going to load in some piano samples" NOT LOOPS, individual samples, and proceeded to originate or duplicate a song (your choice). Is that a person a musician? (Hint, in my book, there is no wrong answer here.)
Just curious your thoughts. I realize our opinions are not the same. They probably are not as far apart as you may think though! If I didn't care what you thought, I wouldn't even ask in the first place
1) The goal of discussion isn't to bring everyone in the room to the same opinion... it is to obtain an awareness that is bigger than personal opinion, one based on the thinking of many minds. There is value in that for anyone who wants it.
2) Good discussion is an art form. In order to obtain it there must be "parliamentary rules" that make it possible for people to express their ideas without being punished.
3) All the rules of discussion revolve around preserving the dignity of everyone in the discussion. If you can accomplish that, you can have conversations on any topic without fighting.
4) Without that agreed upon respect what happens is that people seek to "win" by mocking anyone who disagrees with them. Worst case scenario is when mocking degenerates to personal attacks.
5) In the days of the open forums of discussion the ancients really understood the art of debate. They identified and catalogued most (if not all) of the false arguments and explained why they are false. To this crowd it was generally accepted that the person with the weakest argument would be the first to resort to fallacious reasoning or personal attacks. To them such an approach was automatically interpreted as an implied defeat.
My hat is off To all those who have tried to observe the parliamentary rules of discussion. That speaks well of your open-mindedness and respect for people, as well as your respect for clarity in communication.
I'm not sure I have EVER seen this expressed better. I'm sure I have violated some of these, but it is never my intent to belittle anyone. Just to be clear on that!
I do take the time to read each and every post people make. What many times may look at disagreement, to me, is simply a challenge for "how did you come to that conclusion." Not a challenge, as in, you are wrong. More like, I don't think that way, tell me more...and I may change my mind.
I know my reasons why I feel the way I do, and work hard to express them. I find a big enough segment of people haven't put much thought into subjects they have strong opinions on. When asked questions, they can't express why, or really have reasons. This, at times, makes them angry. That is NOT what I am going for...ever!
Respect to all in this thread. I've seen threads go MUCH worst, as I'm sure we all have.
HTL, you have a lot to say and express yourself well. I also really like that Nev vid you posted. Anybody notice that it ONLY HAS 6 1/2 MILLION VIEWS?
I wanted to post a killer vid I found some time ago but couldn't find it. It's an interview with a big name DJ from the UK and it went into detail about all his equipment and how he used it. What was so impressive was it demo'd one song that he did in collaboration with several other artists who contributed vocals and rhythm parts. He then recorded a whole bunch of his own parts and them performed the whole thing. After that another DJ performed the exact same piece but using his setup, not the first guys,and it sounded completely different. Very impressive and it really showed me what's happening in that field of music.
I call it modern jazz. It doesn't swing but it's live creativity happening in front of a big crowd and some of it is cool even to this old grandpa. These guys are known for their own sound and style just like our favorite players have their own styles. We just don't listen to the new stuff often enough to tell the difference.
Been surfing around YT and found another Nev vid. This one only has 13 million views. I just noticed something remarkable unless I'm missing something. He's actually playing the beat here, there's no click or automatic beat making going on. Here it is:
Thank you. That is appreciated my friend I could and will say the same for you.
As far as the video, I know what you mean. The dexterity to do that is impressive. I don't know if my brain could do it, lol!
He has another video, that is basically a tutorial on how he played that very song. It's very interesting to watch. It shows how he actually plays it all.
I appreciate his sense of humor as well.
376,729 subscribers 35,540,369 views Joined Oct 2, 2012
Not bad
I didn't discuss as much as I would have liked to during the week, being family and job must come first. That being said, I was looking forward to the weekend when I have slightly more time. But the thread didn't see much activity. I can only assume that it's because...wait for it...they were all out doing their DJ gigs?
I just wish there was a visual somewhere, I don't know maybe photo of someone beating a dead horse. Now that would be funny. LOL
It would be ironic. That I had to post asking for people to stop posting pictures of a dead horse... It's not that I don't get it. I would just wanted to continue the conversation with anyone who wanted to.
Apparently, that is not allowed here. Others, who are bored with the conversation, both determine when others should be done with it and have no other option of other threads to comment on.
It's not like you see me jumping in on threads posting pictures or making comments like that when I feel it's done. I just move on; and those that want to continue the discussion...more power to them.
Perhaps we could start a thread for people who like to comment or post gifs of people beating a dead horse? Then when someone gets the urge, they could do so at will
I posted a new thread about my concerns. Many feel this is beating a dead horse. There aren't more comments, so I feel the conversation is as far as it will go.
Thanks for the insights.
With the new work week, and plenty to do, I will remove myself from the thread.
Sorry to those who thought this was going to far. Lesson learned.
I don't know about others, but if I'm bored with a conversation, I find it kinder to those who aren't bored to just say 'good bye' and then no longer click on it.
I just wish there was a visual somewhere, I don't know maybe photo of someone beating a dead horse. Now that would be funny. LOL
It would be ironic. That I had to post asking for people to stop posting pictures of a dead horse... It's not that I don't get it. I would just wanted to continue the conversation with anyone who wanted to.
Apparently, that is not allowed here. Others, who are bored with the conversation, both determine when others should be done with it and have no other option of other threads to comment on.
It's not like you see me jumping in on threads posting pictures or making comments like that when I feel it's done. I just move on; and those that want to continue the discussion...more power to them.
Perhaps we could start a thread for people who like to comment or post gifs of people beating a dead horse? Then when someone gets the urge, they could do so at will
To HTL,
Sorry man, I just think all this much ado about nothing (in my mind anyway) is quite funny. I "play" music, I don't do brain surgery, so "seriously" excuse me for finding some humor (the dead horses) in this prolonged discussion.
I remember when this forum used to be fun, back when I was younger, under 70 or so, lol. In fact if memory serves me correctly that may have been a PG Music slogan, Have Fun! With that said this rather "old juvenile mind" honestly thought the dead horse gifs were funny.
PS: I'll may try to be a bit more serious in the future, nahhh that won't work. But please don't take everything said or posted on this forum so seriously.
Take care HTL please give the forum and especially the good members a little more time before you give up on both.
......"old juvenile mind" honestly thought the dead horse gifs were funny.
PS: I'll may try to be a bit more serious in the future, nahhh that won't work. But please don't take everything said or posted on this forum so seriously.
Later,
My brother from a different mother, we have way too much in common
