Hi,

This may be the other side of the world from BB but there is a lot to learn that can be applied to BB on this video.

https://youtu.be/XWMKAX8Chuc

Cheers,


Billy

Billy,

Great info, thanks!

Don

Enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.

There were several aspects in this video I found interesting in comparison to my BB workflow and equating the session musicians to RealTrack/midi/Supermidi BB musicians.

Their workflow in the video begins with a rough outline of a song, they listen, evaluate and rehearse the song, finding and developing the groove of the song along the way. Once they find the groove, they can quickly record the actual sound/vibe into the demo. I think this part of the session is similar to most recording sessions, be it demo or tracking a major cut.

Whereas, I begin a song, lyrics, melody and chord progression and proceed to the demo or final recording stage all in a single BB song. Sometimes because of all the evaluating and auditioning of styles and instruments, my final version is not a recording of the song initially created in my head. Not in style, instrumentation or even time signature and tempo. Band in a Box itself becomes an integrated co-writer/producer of my original song. That's completely different than what this video portrays.

It makes me wonder how my outcome is affected by this in the area of commercialism and accounts for the Band in a Box sound that is sometimes easily identifiable.

The video also mentions another interesting topic regarding the speed of production. Here, it is pointed out that in the Demo stage, a session usually works to complete 3-4 different songs as opposed to a release recording where it's illustrated that Lionel Richie had 3 three hour sessions per day for three days having 27 hours in the single song, "Stuck on You". I recall an earlier video post here on the forum a few months ago with Alan Parsons on recording vocals. In the video, Michael McDonald relates how he normally has to sing for 3-4 hours before he gets a vocal suitable for a recorded take. It was mentioned in a documentary about the day John Lennon was killed that the work scheduled for the studio on the day he was killed was to overdub and punch in vocals. Nine hours of a major studio with top level engineers, producers and artists just to tweak vocals. Amazing to me.

Finally, I recommend if you have the opportunity, to take time to view one of the YouTube recommended videos that are attached to the above video. It chronicles Shania Twain, developing a demo of one of her original songs with David Foster. It is also an excellent 'development of a demo' from the professional point of view. Shania Twain's self imposed vocal insecurity as she has struggled back was surprising.

This video would have been a little more instructive if we could hear the vocal...copyright issues

I pick up little things like " I covered the vox up with the drum fill, have to re do that"

That is a huge deal actually, not a small thing and he caught it as soon as he played the track back.

Learning to think like a pro can only be done by being there next to the pro...via video in this case.

The internet is crazy cool for getting to "set in" on a session like this.

Billy

You've identified a problem/crutch. This is a good thing



If you have David Foster working on your 'demo' it really shouldn't be considered a demo anymore.
<grin> If I had him working on a song with me I'd be touting it as collaboration.

Thank you for posting this!

There have been several times where people make comments about "the pros do it in one take" or "they come in without rehearsing and just do it perfectly the first time." I usually don't comment, but know that is BY FAR not typical if ever. I think those are passed down stories from people who are not experienced in professional recordings.

This is video is the type of situation I typically see. Musicians need to communicate to get it right. It may not always take a long time to do; but there is plenty of communication and working to get the right feel, sound, tempo...all of it.

So again I thank you for posting this.

It is an impressive thing to watch seasoned studio musicians "do their thing".
Also nice that they recorded a session to share...

One thing that they did not show in this case is how good those guys are at writing charts.
They had one done beforehand - most likely by Paul since he was obviously in charge.
In a typical demo session, they will be doing 4-5 songs for a "customer" (songwriter(s)) who simply bring a cassette tape of a quick guitar/vocal - as rudimentary as it gets.
They slap that in a player and the musicians write the chart as they listen. One time through. They then chat around about what they hear to make sure they all have they same thing. Then, as you see, a quick "groove check", some discussion about various parts and hit record. One take is typical (once all the preliminary set up in done). A few punch ins for a missed note here or there. This is typical of songwriter demo sessions. Generally, there is a long standing relationship between the writers and the musicians, so everyone knows what they are after.

Generally, one of the songwriters is in the vocal booth to provide a scratch vocal as they go.
A seasoned demo singer will be brought in later to do the vocals - in a separate session - you can't waste the musicians time getting the vocals right. It makes for some funny vocals when a a couple of guys have written a "girl song"...

Keep in mind what this costs. A 4-5 song session (which is typical at high end studios because everyone gets more bang for their buck) will cost $2000 ($400-$500 per song). So BIAB cost basically the same as one song - and it's FREE after that!

Also...keep in mind, these guys do this 24/7. And they only have to do their part. And they work together day-in and day-out. Coming up with the grooves and licks that fit what they hear on that simple cassette demo is nothing to them - it's automatic.
As you do your BIAB production, you have to do all the thinking. Think like a guitar player. Think like a fiddle player. A steel player. A drummer (who can do that?!?)
SO, it is going to be a bit tougher to "get that groove". But the tracks are there that will give it to you.
You just need to learn to listen like a producer - and then poke around RTs until you find something that will give you what you need.

Yes. It seems so. I'm excited to see how well I can take advantage of the knowledge and improve my recordings.




I've not kept up with all of what Shania Twain has endured and don't know if there is a medical condition regarding her voice but I found it interesting the insecurity she showed with her vocals and also the vulnerability and intimidation toward working with David Foster. Mr. Foster displayed a lot of respect for the talents of Shania Twain to both her vocals and songwriting. Of course, there was nothing for her to be nervous about. I'm amazed at how ordinary some talented celebrities think of themselves.

"SO, it is going to be a bit tougher to "get that groove". But the tracks are there that will give it to you.
You just need to learn to listen like a producer - and then poke around RTs until you find something that will give you what you need."

I agree with you. My mindset is that what we have with RealTracks, and the ability to regenerate them to some degree, is not very discernible from what we would receive if we had the opportunity to record in one of the big studio's and the RealTrack artists of BIAB were the session musicians for our demo. We would receive a generic, superbly played instrumental with small changes to correct an error or create a livelier part if needed.

So, depending on our individual level of talent, experience and technological ability, how we compare to one of these top level musician demo sessions productions using BIAB comes down to lacking the producer and engineer, disregarding the quantity and quality of the equipment and studio of course. But these studios are also now working daily with tracks recorded in environments and with equipment that is the same as what we have.

Everything you wrote is right on but since this thread is about doing a demo that is going to be presented to a producer or publisher...

Biab will not cut it by itself. It's fine to lay out the song, get the basic elements there but to use Biab tracks for the whole thing except for your vocal or you playing? I could be wrong and there are exceptions to everything but imho I don't think so.

Example when he stops the session to say he wants to put the Pretty Woman drum lick in there as a break. That is a good idea and adds a real nice bit of spice to the song. Somebody trying to do this demo in Biab is going to have their Real Drum track just playing through that or they're going to try to somehow cut and paste a fill in there that will not flow correctly.

This is exactly the sort of thing that gives away the fact that it's a Biab created demo. These guys are not stupid, they know all about Biab and all the RT/RD's. The guitarist and keyboard guy are playing somewhat generic but still specific parts for this demo. They don't sound like what the guitar or organ RT's sound like. When Harvey Gerst was posting here a few years ago he explained in detail how he might create an 8 bar RT to fill in a background guitar strum part because the guitarist had already gone home and they didn't want to pay him to come back so he filled that in with an RT. Huge difference between that and using Biab for the whole thing.

Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video.

Bob

I can understand that part for sure. When you work with people that have those kind of credentials you *should* feel a bit intimidated. I know I would.
/It may actually help with the extra effort side of things


Stay true to the song. Use these tools but put down an original scratch track of the idea so you can refocus and make better decisions along the way if needed.
I've wandered off track many times playing with RT's etc, but found this little trick well worth the few minutes it takes. A couple of times it reminded me of a bridge or other little tidbit I had forgotten. It doesn't need to be pretty, just get the idea down before you forget it.

Previously I would do it with pieces that others had asked me to help develop, but then I realized I should do it for me too.

I think you are exactly right Bob. If I could time travel back to 1960 and take BIAB with me I'd be golden! But nowadays the requirements for an actual demo are sky high and with musicians like those in that crew, there is absolutely no room for canned bits and pieces. But, for folks like me where music is a hobby, BIAB is a truly delightful way for imagining my songs are real!

This is a video of a sort of "demo" I did in Fort Worth Texas.

The back story is that a friend and I wrote the lyrics over the internet. I got on a plane in Miami early and flew to Dallas, rented a car and got to the studio at around six.

The guys showed up around seven. We joked that everyone could only do one take and that is how it got cut.

I talked to the drummer for about two min and told Curtis the engineer to hit record. The drummer and I played the song through, me on guitar.

Big John the bass player showed up about that time and we did the vocal in one take. I showed the lyrics to Robert and he sang it right off the sheet having never seen it before.

We single tracked the guitar lead, harmonica, piano, and steel guitar.

By 10:00 we were finished. Dr Wu was walking around with his video camera and he made the video except for the color intro which I cut in.

Curtis and I stayed up till 3:00 mixing. To tired to go back to the hotel I went to sleep at the studio. Never go to a studio that does not have a bed...lol

What you see is a short version of what went on. It would have been ever so cool if I had BB then to rough out the song. I was a bit stressed out putting everything together with the guys, showing Robert a bit of how to sing the song, playing guitar, running out to get some beer...lol

This was max fun and I wish I had the money to do it once a week...lol

https://youtu.be/lE8PABawHEs

While everyone experiences PTSD differently, there are three main types of symptoms:
Re-experiencing the traumatic event.
Avoiding reminders of the trauma.
Increased anxiety and emotional arousal

The song is a bit serious but making it was fun

Cheers,

Billy

PS...I will look for the lyrics

EDIT: I had to dig to find this...lol

PTSD SONG
Sound effect intro
We did for our country they did it for me
Like the vets from Vietnam back in nineteen seventy three
All the guys from World War Two dug in for the fight
Bullets flying every where in the middle of the night

You found yourself in a hole over there
You met the beast better beware
Trying to kill you but you don’t care
Keep on marching my brother
One foot in front of the other
Solo
You were there in country, you were the elite
Now you’re here back in the world walking down the street
Startled by the smallest sound of a car passing by
You try your best to hide it, the tear from your eye

You found yourself in a hole over there
You met the beast better beware
Trying to kill you but you don’t care
Keep on marching my brother
One foot in front of the other
Solo
You keep you gun by side you you know it’s not right
When you wake up screaming in the middle of the night
The doctor takes the history and then he writes it down
You just keep on thinking they gona put me in the ground

You found yourself in a hole over there
You met the beast better beware
Trying to kill you but you don’t care
Keep on marching my brother
One foot in front of the other
Solo
You know the beast is a monster that lives inside your brain
Every day you wake up he’s driving you insane
Government says there ain’t no cure you put a gun up to your head
Your finger is on the trigger nothing more to be said

You found yourself in a hole over there
You met the beast better beware
Trying to kill you but you don’t care
Keep on marching my brother
One foot in front of the other
Sound effect out


Perhaps I should move this to it's own thread.

OK, I am starting to get it. First it is not Pianobilly, but Planobilly. And Billy plays guitar.

Some good old rock and roll there, thanks for sharing.

I always got a kick out of the name, although it made me think he was from TX ..
/// I thought 'Ziggy' played guitar?? ///

Yes...Plain old Billy...really old...lol.. from Plano Texas...lol

Actually from Houston but there it was Blind Lemon Simmons...lol

Lived in Plano Texas for a few years down the street from Andy Timmons, a real guitar player.

Ziggy aka John Ziegler got to cool for Texas and moved to LA to teach guitar and play at the Baked Potato, spent way to much time hanging around Larry Carlton...lol

A little arcane Texas history...lol...guitar slingers, hum dingers, dead ringers...

https://youtu.be/aCPjLSKJ3DA

You guys are gona kill me soon...lol

Billy

Depending on the style of music I suppose...IMHO I feel you could totally pull off a demo with BIAB. Yes you will have to tweak a few things (as pointed out) to give it a few signatures, but there is a lot that could be used very effectively.

What you can't use is the "generate and that's good enough" attitude for sure.

From what I typically hear, BIAB or a local band in the studio, what usually is missing is arrangement. It's not knowing how to develop all sorts of hooks...and repetition of them.

Last, and most important many times, is the vocals. If those aren't there, good luck. Yes there are exceptions, but if the goal is a song that people like, a voice they like helps in that

Just my 2 cents. I may be getting my 2 cents back soon...lol.

Great topic!

BIAB is really good software and with enough skill and willingness to spend large amounts of time getting all that can be gotten from the program one could come up with a pretty good sounding demo.

But...only in certain styles, and I think there would always be the need to play something live.

You could pull a thirty thousand pound trailer with your pickup truck but why would you?

I really like BIAB and I am glad I have it but I don't think it is logical to ask the software to do something way out of it design parameters, even if it can be done. It is just to much work and there are much quicker ways of doing things.

I am not willing to spend three hundred hours getting something out of BIAB that I can buy for a hundred bucks for example. That's just not cost effective, for me a least.

Last word on this subject...There also is no sure way to get what you want from a first class pro studio. Everything has limits.

Billy

Always a joy to watch pros at work.

I've talked with a local studio owner/producer/engineer/guitarist. Essentially, he does in his studio what we do with BiaB. Singer-songwriters come to him with their songs and he produces them. He has a sweet studio with high-end gear. Sometimes he'll bring in local musicians, a fiddle player for example, or singers depending on the situation. He sends the song to another studio where the drum tracks are recorded.

I approached him because I wanted to know his prices and if he would mix/master what I'm recording at home via BiaB/RB/Sonar. He listened to a few of my recordings online and in his opinion thought they were adequate.

Now, I know my recordings are not demos and they can always be better, okay. I go back and listen to them now and then...some of them are awful. His mixes are terrific, but I hear productions from people on this site that can compete. And instead of hundreds of dollars per song, it's a few hundred for their whole catalog!

Obviously, there is no substitute for professional musicians in a recording studio. My hope is that I can model that process 'in the box' by taking multiple instances of the generated audio and slicing and dicing until I get something in the ballpark.

One day I may spend the bucks to demo a song or two, but for now I'm quite content, elated actually, with what PG Music has enabled me to do with BiaB!

Jazzman. I disagree with you when you say it is not possible to produce a good demo using band in a box. You only have to listen to the quality of some of the songs in the user showcase. I have joined deuling mixes (by graham from the recording revolution) and every month they give you the raw tracks and then you see how your mix sounds compared to the "pros". I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the tracks that biab generates. It is all in how you do the arrangements and mixing. Those raw tracks are no great shakes but the end product (produced by the "pros") is awesome. Me....I am going to keep trying to learn everything I can about this amazing tool and hopefully improve my productions by continually producing music.

"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont.



Regards,

Bob

I have been using BIAB/RB extensively in the studio.

Number of pros who have commented on the tracks being generated or "canned"...0

Just saying, I think it has more to do with what you do with it.

Adding in your own playing (or some else's) goes a long way in making it more believable IF they are any good. If not, it actually hurts you. It screams "amature."

That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob

In case I, or anyone else, has maybe strayed too far from the original post...

I love seeing any of this kind of thing!

I also like that it shows people first hand what it is actually like in a studio. The reality and many of the stories I hear are far from each other. This looks accurate to me.

Thanks again for sharing the video!

Actually, it was generated in Jammer Pro – vaguely similar to BIAB but only MIDI. I still think it's a valid point. A guy with 40 years of studio work, backing everybody in Nashville, was fooled by a MIDI/Soundfont track. RealTracks, on the other hand, are actual instruments. Mo much betta.

I've been pitching BIAB songs for several years. No one has ever said they thought they sounded canned.



Regards,

Bob

Well, that wasn't the Ziggy I was thinking of, but then again, you said you're from TX .. <grin>

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ziggy+played+guitar

As a live sound engineer, the most interesting thing I saw in the video was the hand-made 'flapper dampers' on each of Paul's drums. Gonna have to give those a try. One more occasions that I can count, I've made gaffer tape or 'gasp' duct-tape dampers where I fold up a paper towel to about a .25"x2"x2" square and tape that onto the drum head near the rim to tame a ringing snare or rack tom. Works a treat. I think the flapping version in the video would do the same with less of an aggressive effect.

My take on demos and the rest....

There are no demos anymore. Well, not demo quality. With home recording advances, and the music coming out of home studios being comparable if not better than some "pro" studios, demo quality is a thing of the past and now days, if you want to be seriously considered and have someone actually listen to the songs, you'd best be producing master quality stuff. Radio ready as it's called or broadcast quality material.

I've said this before, but for the new folks, I was at a songwriter's convention a few years ago in LA. In one of the sessions, they played a #1 song that anyone in country music would have instantly recognized. First they played the "demo" that was submitted and then the actual radio hit by the artist. Seriously.... it was nearly impossible to tell which was which. The demo could easily have been the one on the radio except it was an unknown "demo singer" from 16th Ave. That was simply to show us the quality of the competition and the quality of the demo's going in to the publisher's offices in Nashville. The saying.... Go big or go home.... comes to mind.

That means, good vocals by someone who can sing in key and on pitch and hopefully sounds somewhat like the artist you are pitching to. Instrument parts that don't sound midi, fake, or canned. Production chops that have interesting musical things going on. And a polished, professional sounding mix and finishing. Oh yeah, and the writing and composing better be good too. It all has to be good, no.... it has to be the best of the best.... Super!!! If any part of it is less than stellar.....No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig...it's still a pig.

Can it be done with BiaB? I think so. The musical parts anyway. But you can't usually take the stock tracks straight out of BB and throw it into a mix and call it done. Some work and skill needs to go into making it right. Adding some live tracks and a good singer will set it apart from a straight up BB production. Using tools to make the production pop and sound pro is essential.

I have a number of my straight up (meaning 100% BB tracks with production chops) BB project songs signed to a few of the bigger A list publishers. And a number of the hybrid tracks. So yeah, it's possible. I only had one publisher tell me that an early BB song I sent sounded "too stiff" to use. He suggested I used "live musicians" and resubmit the song.

Watching the pro's work is a thing of beauty. They make it seem so simple but it's not. However, when you learn to look for the things they see (and I heard a number of things in the video that many people miss because they simply don't know) , and then start applying those things to your music and production, there will be a difference for the better in your work.

Details count. It's the details that set the pros apart from the masses.

enjoyed that video.

I think it is entirely possible with BiaB to have fills, turnarounds and short solos that complement the singer and the melody. FWIW I frequently will regen many, many times to get the "right" feel and often I comp tracks at the bar level down to sometimes a note or two - even rhythm tracks. A single track in my DAW may be comprised of bits and pieces of 15-20 or more regens. Worth the trouble? Dunno but hey that's what the Bud part of J&B does

Janice, can you clone Bud and send him over...lol

I never in a million years would have imagined this thread would generate so many comments.

One thing is clear, to me at least, Music is a team sport, and these guys in the video have a great team.


Cheers,

Billy