After many years of Reaper I am seeing some cracks in its armor and this may be a good time to look elsewhere.

Since I am on a PC I am considering Cakewalks Sonar Artist.

I need:

1) a "professional" package
2) Solid performance - meaning bug free
3) Must handle midi as well as the best
4) must have a good user forum for help as needed
5) must be compatible with my collection of VSTs

Any thoughts?

I have found Sonar to be very good, have been using it since version 6 (professional version). I may be partial to this DAW, but it gets the job done. I'm sure, there will be plenty of suggestions coming your way.

FWIW...

Dan,

What cracks are you seeing? I'm a huge fan of Reaper and haven't stumbled across anything yet that causes me concern.

Noel

Howdy....

I've been with Cakewalk since 1994 with almost every version since and on X3 now.
I would highly recommend Cakewalk as a consideration.

I don't know how it compares to the features you need but here's a start:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator
Found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AReOK3d6fLk&list=PLeySI9gLWqewLAdPSeqJOkzdkZVSrzVJl

Personally, I believe all DAW programs have their place.
It's a matter of finding one that suits your needs, intuitive according to your sense of work flow and easy on the eyes.

Hope that helps....happy spending.

Carry on....

I use Steinbergs Cubase pro 8.5 and have been using the DAW since Cubase 5. It ticks all the boxes you mentioned.

What I like about Cubase is the workflow, the fact that it is very, very complete and it's easy to assign inputs and outputs.

It handles MIDI very well and has a lot of MIDI functionality. You can, for example, route MIDI tracks to onboard synths (be it native or external softsynths) or you can route them to outboard synths.

It is ideal for recording songs and song ideas. If it's just you singing with a guitar or you record a band on 48 (or more) tracks. Cubase will give you the power of controll.

The mixer view is absolutely brilliant: it feels like using a digital (or analog) mixing desk. So when all is recorded and all the parts are lined up, you can concentrate on making the best mix as if you would do as a FOH tech during a live event.

Steinberg.net hosts a forum where users are pretty active.

Disclaimer: a DAW is a kind of a personal thing. Most DAWs need some getting used to, as they are usually quite large and versatile programs. What works great for one person can be a pain to work with for another. Use YouTube and look foor tutorials on DAWs you consider. That may give you an idea of the workflow and the feel of the program.

Good luck and let us know what you decided on.

Mostly all daws have a trial.

I downloaded four daws and used them on different projects over the month of the trial.

You can have them installed at the same time, so switching over to one, then to another.

I settled for sonar.

I had sonar artist and sonar professional loaded on pc to try for a month.

Good luck

Interesting post Mike as I was about to write the same thing about Sonar. It sounds like they are a lot alike.

I agree about the DAW being a personal thing and that regardless of which one is chosen there will be a learning curve.

My advice is to DL the demos of each DAW and see which one fits your needs. Your workflow may be different than someone else so asking what DAW should I get depends only on your workflow. Thus you have to find a DAW that best fits that criteria.

PA - I think most professional DAWs are solid contenders and are relatively crash free. In fact I rarely have crashed Sonar but when it did the crash is always from a plug-in, mostly old 32 bit ones. I delete them if they cause problems. YMMV.

{edit} - an after thought. Make sure that you have the computing power to run these DAWs. This usually means having more computer then the minimum requirements.

I have been with SONAR (or its predecessor) for decades. I have worked in the studio on ProTools and Digital Performer, but I don't want to learn another one now because it's serious work to become skilled at whichever you choose.

One of the relative weaknesses of SONAR is its notation, what they call Staff View. Cubase is reportedly better. If you are not a composer or arranger, editing and writing in music notation, then this difference wouldn't matter. And even SONAR is OK (I have written symphony scores in it). Of course, some DAWs don't have notation at all and handle only audio.

Thanks much guys, really appreciate the words-of-wisdom. I have downloaded Sonar-Artist for a trial. I immediately recognized the challenge ahead of me if I do make the switch. the learning curve may be too much for me. Years of using Reaper have a least allow me to focus on the music when I am recording rather than "how do I do this or that?"

My problem with Reaper became manifest in my recent use of NI Kontakt instruments. Just like when I have used ST3 in the past the hoops you have to jump through to do multi midi channel synths is too much. Too much to remember when you don't do it all the time... I hoped that something else would handle this situation better. But I am afraid the I don't have the time to learn a new DAW.

Pro Tools. Boom.

Eddie, does that mean you like it boom, or it can self-destruct boom? I've had more experience with the latter.

Ya, I have heard of them.

Actually my first DAW back in the late 90's early 2000's I ran on one of the first MBox'es with PT-Lite. Then I upgraded to Win7 and PT did not!! Left me high and dry with a non functioning MBox and no other compatible non-proprietary interface. I used to say, "PT left me I didn't leave them". That was my angry years. I have since mellowed and forgiven, but I will not return.

The problem with a question like this is time. As in do you have a life outside of DAW's? If you're in the biz and this is all you do, great. BUT, if you are like all of us here, there isn't enough hours in a 30 day trial to get proficient enough with one DAW for a valid comparison let alone several. You really want to devote weeks and weeks to evaluating the demo's of a bunch of DAW's? Seriously?

How long did it take you to get good with Reaper? How long did it take you to get good with Biab?

Stick with what you know.

Bob

I like ++ MultiTrack Studio ++ because it is very stable, up-to-date and includes a nice sounding suite of modeled instrument patches that are almost GM compatible except for the fact no sound effect instrument patches are included.

Bob

Was that a dig at my post as it seems I am the one who suggested this to try for a month.

Seriously !!!


I work full time ..what I was saying simply was try before you buy,.

I have not been doing this that long on daws etc..!


You really want to devote weeks and weeks to evaluating the demo's of a bunch of DAW's? Seriously?

answer... I can say in my short time that all daws are the same.. only certain actions different places i.e.


How long did it take you to get good with Reaper? How long did it take you to get good with Biab?


answer not that long...thanks.



Stick with what you know.

Answer ..and the wheel would still not be invented..!

a google\bing regular as well as video search like cubase kontakt multi out where you substitute your daw of interest will be revealing

noe appear to be easy or intuitive from my experience

once you get it working the suggestion is to save the configuration for reuse each time you need it this too is diffferent for each daw

i feel your pain

Bob

Was that a dig at my post as it seems I am the one who suggested this to try for a month.

Seriously !!!


I work full time ..what I was saying simply was try before you buy,.

I have not been doing this that long on daws etc..!


You really want to devote weeks and weeks to evaluating the demo's of a bunch of DAW's? Seriously?

answer... I can say in my short time that all daws are the same.. only certain actions different places i.e.


How long did it take you to get good with Reaper? How long did it take you to get good with Biab?


answer not that long...thanks.

Stick with what you know.

Answer ..and the wheel would still not be invented..!

One way to narrow down the choices is with a comparison chart. I found ++ THIS COMPARISON CHART ++ on Wikipedia.

Another interesting comparison (that has absolutely nothing to do with answering your question) is this ++ COMPARISON OF FREE SOFTWARE FOR AUDIO ++. There is some very specialized audio software floating around on the internet that is free!

I was just saying jim

they are all pretty much the same.

no offence intended.

You only need to look at my posts.

I am not about because of work commitments I am always away from home.

But I always nip in to the biab forum to see the posts.

But still I had a wee hour or so a week to try the daws I had on trail

Take care

Hi colly,

I was responding to jazzmandan's original question. I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough in my post.

I guess to each his own--in everything.

I LOVE Sonar because it seems intuitive and has some great onboard effects (though I have about 200 + Xtra VSTs.) I just really like the workflow of it and the layout.

For composing, I would never think to edit in staff view, I would do that in Finale or even Guitar Pro and then reimport the midi. Oddly enough, I find Guitar Pro much easier to edit in than Finale (because it is, I guess), the only drawback being you need Finale to run the Garritan Libaries, or a DAW like Sonar that handles it.

At the end of the day I think we all build systems that suit us.

I guess I have said a million times I still record in Real Band because it so easy, and reliable. My old workhorse. And it generates those real track and midi tracks. What a Bargain!!

No probs if you look at page two.

That's were it all began.

I was answering a post .

Bob said,

Take Care

LOL!!! I love it, Matt. Took a class this summer and got to know it and now I am learning more as I go on my own. Bought the program AND a new rocket sauce PC to run it so I am now in neck deep as far as expenses go, so I am going to keep running with it. And again, my application is not like anybody else's. I may do another CD, I may not. I just want to know how to use Pro Tools and the only way to learn how to swim is to jump in the deep end. So $2000 later... LOL!!!

So, boom as in mic drop.

I actually bought TWO computers for Pro Tools. The first was a used HP with an i5 but the mobo only went to 16gb or RAM. The brand new one is an i7 with 32gb of RAM and it runs so fast the commands complete before I finish the mouse click!

As usual, this is just me.

oooh what the .... cross wires sorry Eddie ,,David,,,Noel ,,.,

And Jim SORRY .
take care

What you are going to get here is little more than a vote for what each poster uses. If this guy uses that DAW and knows it well, of course it is easy to use. FOR HIM. Usually what you get is "This is what I could get for free (or very little money) and I don't want to spend a lot of money because I am not a professional full time musician." I have read these kinds of posts for years here. This guy says Reaper is the best ever. That guy says Sonar. Yet another says Samplitude.

Remember what BIAB/RB is supposed to be. It is a composition tool. It HAS a DAW in it, but it is not meant to be a major league studio DAW for producers who rent out their studio for money.

The best analogy I can use is that you CAN drive nails with the back of your electric drill, but is that what your electric drill is made for?

My perspective is based only on this. If I go to 50 basketball games, and every gym uses Spalding as their house basketball, there must be a reason for that, and that reason could possibly be that Spalding is the best basketball. If most major studios use, and have been using, Pro Tools, draw your own conclusion. Then you get the crew that still records analog on 2 inch tape, making that cliche claim about how analog recording makes the best sound. Well, I disagree. I suspect that for that subset of recording people the issue is more likely that they are not computer strong and don't want to invest the time to learn Pro Tools.

I leave you with this. When has more knowledge, about ANY topic, ever been a bad thing? Aren't we supposed to keep growing and expanding as we go through life? Learn something new. If it's in music, learn a new instrument. Learn new software. If it's outside of music, take up cooking if you can't cook. Take up woodworking if you can't cut a straight line or drive a nail. Study the physics of how an airplane flies. (Everybody kinda sorta knows about high pressure under the wing and lower pressure over the wing, but there's more. Ailerons, flaps, slats, rudders, elevators, pitot tubes....) Make some waves in your life. A boat that doesn't rock at all is also probably dead in the water.

But, yeah. Pro Tools. LOL!

All these DAWs are great in knowledgeable hands. Some don't handle MIDI at all, so they are out of consideration here. My experience in pro studios has been that they use Pro Tools and it crashes more than they like.

You will notice I primarily use one DAW and yet I cited only the area that is considered a weakness.

I don't have much experience with Pro Tools yet but the "crashes" I see are usually the result of the computer being "under-rammed". The plugins eat ram like I used to eat wings (in competition).

You may be right about both!

Dan, I would suggest having a look at the Cakewalk lineup. Before you jump in, I would suggest either downloading the demo version of Sonar, or to enter for a lesser sum of money, get the Music Creator 7 DAW.

While the MC7 DAW is considered to be a "beginner's DAW" I would beg to differ. It is a full featured DAW and will run 99.9% of the professionally written VST's, synths, and FX plugs on the market. The only things I found that would NOT run on Music Creator were in fact, not the VST itself, but the sound sample set for some third party written things. And that was a sound font set supposedly written for SFZ. In addition, when you buy MC7, you get a bunch of synths and plugs that, if sold by themselves, would be worth the cost of the entire package. I really love the Cakewalk Sound Center Synth. Sampled sounds and a bunch of inexpensive add-on packs are available depending on what you need.

I ran the MC line on my DAW for many years and never exceeded it's capabilities. MC7 has actually broken through some of the limitations that MC, 4,5 & 6 had. I haven't kept up with the specs but I think it now allows more than 2 inputs at a time and the synth limit of 8 is now 24 IIRC.

Sonar and MC both have a very active and knowledgeable forum membership. I was quite active in the MC forums for a time and still pop in over there to assist with questions and problems. I have never regretted buying the Cakewalk line.

The only question you need to ask yourself regarding cakewalk is which product will do the job you need? Look at the specs and make that decision for yourself.

I have used the MC line with great results and satisfaction for years and only cross graded to Sonar X1 essentials because CW offered a "no-brainer" cross-grade deal to get X1e at a killer price. It does everything I need.

Here>>> http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator

Dan,

Although I mentioned MultiTrack Studio in an earlier post it is not the DAW I use; I mentioned that DAW because I admire the feature of having a relatively complete set of general midi instrument patches built-in.

My DAW of choice is Music Creator. I started with version 2 and have advanced up to version 6. The current version is version 7.

I'm not sure if you know it but PG Music sells Music Creator. PG Music's page is ++ HERE ++.

As Herb stated you get some good accessories with Music Creator. For me the biggies are the TTS-1 multi timbrel soft synth and Studio Instruments which includes electric bass, electric piano, acoustic drums and strings virtual instruments.

Groove 3 has a comprehensive set of Music Creator 6 tutorial videos. You can find out more about them ++ HERE ++ . I have the video set and can attest they are like having a knowledgeable good friend spend a day advising you. I use the videos as a reference much more than the manual.

With version 7 of Music Creator you have the choice of downloading 32 bit, 64 bit or both. I suggest getting the 32 bit version. Then the accessories (like TTS-1 and Studio Instruments) will also be 32 bit and will work with BiaB and RB without having to use a bit bridge.

Hey, Guitarhacker, what are the cracks you experience in Reapers armor? It's probably moving from version 5.xx up to 6.xx soon. My assumption only since 5.xx has been around a while and 6.xx would mean more sales for them. But, what are the weaknesses you are finding? Maybe there's a solution without moving to a completely new DAW.

Best to put this thread to rest.

I opened it in the midst of extreme frustration with inserting Kontakt into Reaper. I was just amazed that it was such a convoluted mess to set up a multi channel synth in the software. I went through the exact same experience two years ago working with ST3 in Reaper. So when Kontakt came along I couldn't believe how I had forgotten all the routing. Was it me? or was it Reaper? I was quick to blame the latter.

Fact is, I have now calmed down, Kontakt is running fine on my machine in Reaper. I had downloaded Sonar-Artist during my meltdown and could not even figure out how to create a midi track in 20 minutes of messing around. So I am sticken with the Reap.

Sorry if I stressed anyone out - my initial post was genuine and I do appreciate all the feedback, but cooler heads have prevailed.

I use Sonar so I have no clue about Reaper. Don't have Reaper and never will.

Must have been that noise in your head again.

Huh! Whaah? What was that? Did somebody say something?

Dan -

I'm glad you have come to terms with Reaper, but if you are interested in something else, you might want to take a look at Groove3 videos.

Groove3 has some excellent Sonar tutorials that show you how to do just about everything. Eli Krantzberg is excellent in his presentations and covers a lot of material to get you up and running pretty quickly.

They had a sale not too long ago and I got a one year subscription to everything Groove3 has for not much money (they have an all-access pass sale going right now for $75).

They also have videos for Abelton Live, Cubase, FL Studio, ProTools, Reason, Reaper, Sonar, Studio One, and Tracktion.