Hi!
I'm a teenage classical guitarist, just started my university studies on a music academy.
I've just always wondered what's others people opinion about classical guitar? If you would have to listen to a classical piece on a classical guitar, would you rather enjoy it or not? If not then why, if you don't like the sound or anything tell me why.
Just really curious about regular people's opinion about classical guitar.
Part of why I'm asking is I'm kinda wondering if i took the right path. I've always been the best guitarist at the music school and I'm pretty sure im talented but will I be able to life a fulfilled life and be able to afford things... And thats what got me wondering because my family always struggled financially, I havent even got my own luthier guitar, so I need to build my adult life all by myself, and considering how much currency I have coming into adulthood it doesnt seem too shiny at the end...
but whatever :-)
just anything you want to tell about classical guitar, i want to hear it
cheers, orbs

I like Baroque music. Guitarists Andre Segovia and Christopher Parkening. I also volunteer for a Philharmonic Orchestra. Recently Yo-Yo Ma performed with the Orchestra:

[img:left]https://flic.kr/p/2aN7xXt[/img]

I am around Classical Music a lot.

Now the odd part I play Country and Bluegrass. My instruments are Banjo, Guitar and Bass Guitar.

Go figure, eh?

Anyway, follow your dream. Life is not easy but doing what you love makes it so.

...Deb

I love listening to classical guitar! (I just wish I could play that kind of music)

I have played saxophone all of my life. I taught school band for 37 years and for a short period of time I had a guitar class and spent many hours learning classical guitar. I have always enjoyed classical music as well as jazz. The time spent on classical guitar made me truly appreciate the complexity and difficulty of mastering that instrument.

I do enjoy classical guitar, and was fortunate enough to not only attend a concert by Los Romeros but to meet them and have a chat with Pepe.

Insights and incites by Notes

I enjoy listening to classical guitar players but mostly I really appreciate their techniques. I wish that I could have taken classical guitar lessons back in the day.

Hi,

I have studied under two Segovia students and also teach classical guitar.

I would highly recommend it.

If you learn to play classical, and properly, with sight reading, and scales and exercises every day, your ability to play in any style will skyrocket. It makes you better at everything. I use a lot of chord progressions from classical guitar songs and classical music in general when I am writing. Below are the soundcloud versions of songs I later put out on an bossa album playing classical. I used BIAB for the backing tracks and played the main guitars myself.

You can skip the first song with the vocals and start with #2. It is instrumental as are the rest. This is not classical, per se, it is latin, but it will give you an idea.

https://soundcloud.com/david-snyder-guitar

You don't have to spend a fortune to get a good classical. I would suggest not buying anything new.

I went to a used guitar shop and bought a beat up "Dauphine" handmade in Spain for $125. Very old.

It is the most beautiful sounding guitar I own.

Let me know what else you want to know.

Yes, go take classical lessons. You will not regret it.

Here is one my my favorite players playing one of my favorite songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjX-m4LkYk

If this doesn't make you want to learn I don't know what will.

Also Google Christopher Parkening.

One career note, most REALLY GOOD classical guitarists have second jobs. Exceptional ones teach at colleges but it is not known as a profession where you become wealthy.

Unless you are Christopher Parkening who retired at 30, and had started the classical guitar department at USC when he was in his twenties. (He came out of retirement and still does that.)

Google him and watch his youtubes.

Aamzing.

I am only suspecting from limited experience and observation that there is and will continue to be a growing demand for classical training with guitar. I personally witnessed a music graduate and guitar teacher send his teaching practice to the next level when he started teaching that traditional way. Not only did the students respond favorably, but the parents felt better about their investment in their students' music education.
I have no data to back this up.
Quickly, now, guitar and piano are two different animals. I think if you keep an open mind, apply yourself, and learn to apply the classical teaching methods to your chosen market, it could work out well. But, I think you will have to think outside the Flamenco and Latin sound and sell it as a most logical path toward mastery of the instrument.

IMHO classical training is good for any instrument. The skills it teaches you can be applied to other genres of music and can make you a better musician.

Insights and incites by Notes

[quote=edshaw I think if you keep an open mind, apply yourself, and learn to apply the classical teaching methods to your chosen market, it could work out well. But, I think you will have to think outside the Flamenco and Latin sound and sell it as a most logical path toward mastery of the instrument. [/quote]

Ed, to add to this:

I start out each day playing Bach and Tarrega at eight in the morning as part of a routine.

If you want to give your fingers and heart a workout, try the Partita 1 in E Major from the Bach Lute Suite.

Sometimes it is about what is good for your soul and there does not need to be another reason.

Also, Flamenco and Latin are a subset of classical training, and involve different techniques, mostly percussive.

For true enthusiasts, there is no "box" in classical guitar. We/they are fanatical. It is the only instrument in the world (we would say) that is its own built orchestra, as Segovia first articulated, I believe. It think he was onto something there.

Tonklagen,
Yes, I like some classical guitar players.

In fact, before I read your post, I was on YouTube commenting that I love Julian Bream, and find his playing incredibly emotive and just right, whereas John Williams' playing leaves me cold.

Similarly - and this may be heresy, but I will say it, regardless - I am not all that fond of Segovia's playing, although he was obviously one of the greats.

Regarding you wondering whether you have taken the 'right' path, I have had some thoughts.

I think that you just have to give whatever you are doing a good 'go', and evaluate where you want to go from there.

Maybe you are aware that Andy Summers (most famously from The Police) is a classically trained guitarist. He played in some psychedelic/experimental bands in the 60s, and after The Police has collaborated with Brian Eno.

So, his 'journey' in music has been long and varied.

Richie Sambora started to study with Tommy Emmanuel after getting out of Bon Jovi (sorry, I do not like most of the music of either of those players, but it is a good example of what I am saying).

Robbie Krieger was classically trained, and what a distinctive flavour that added to the music of the The Doors.

George Harrison gave up guitar for three years (apart from playing on Beatles' recordings) while he pursued a particular school ('gharana') of sitar. He then invented a whole type of slide playing drawing from his experience playing sitar.

So, there may be many steps on your journey through music.

My only suggestion is that you commit to what you are learning at any given time so that you have a thorough enough exposure to it that you (a) can learn something from it, and (b) can make a decision about whether you want to stick with that, or move on to something else.

One final 'note' (sorry, had to say that). About 12 years ago I started to take sitar lessons - did that for about three years, but I am clunky enough on regular guitar, so gave up the instrument. But North Indian (Hindustani) Classical Music has changed my life. And I get *very* upset because I cannot listen to rock during the time that I am listening to HCM, and vice versa.

So, when I feel things are beginning to change, like a kind of changeover, it takes a few weeks to get into the frame of mind/body/soul to listen to one of those types of music. And then I spend a few months doing that and not listening at all to the other type of music, and then, invariably, I feel myself changing again.

It is a pain in the [*****], and puts me in a dilemma similar to yours (but not as serious because I am doing this for enjoyment, rather than as a career). My dilemma is - should I give up sitar playing for good, or should I give up guitar playing for good?

All the best to you in your journey.

Thank you, David, for those very interesting remarks. We might say how we practice is how we play.
Your comment, "Sometimes it is about what is good for your soul and there does not need to be another reason," fits into a concept I and my friends have been discussing; namely, music study's value for adolescents and post adolescents in learning self management. I'm not trying to be cryptic. Here is an example:
My practice is to play from the lead sheets three times a day, 15-30 minutes per session, three songs at a time. I wake up relaxed, rested, and able to absorb things in a certain way, each day. After lunch, I'm keyed up, agressive, into the day. For the evening session, I'm worn. Common sense tells me not to beat myself up at the end of the day, but, rather, just have fun, take it easy. For adults, this klind of self management has been learned. Kids need to learn the same lesson. They do.

I echo all these comments, but want to add this:
Don't overlook the additional paths that studying classical guitar can take you down!

The greatest example is the Brazilian guitarist/composer Baden Powell..perhaps one of the great technicians outside of strictly classical music.

Watch/listen to this, his own classical composition, then his treatment of a piece of popular Brazilian music, but you can see all the elements of classical guitar in these..so this is an additional benefit of your path of study!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVcz8IP3Ln4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma4SKXEnPtw

Hi Bob,
Your post brought a couple of thoughts and memories to mind.

The first one is that, even though I am an amateur (and very technically bad) musician who can read music to a limited extent, I have been amazed at the fact that, on the frequent occasions when I have jammed informally with people who have been classically trained, those people have not known how to approach performing popular songs with which they are familiar.

While I am trying to actually make up for lost time in terms of learning the parts of music theory which will be useful to me, it is clear that the people I am talking about above have been robbed of being able to just let go and be with the music because of their classical training.

Specifically, several people with whom I have played have panicked because they do not have any sheet music to play from.

In the case of keyboard players, I have just suggested vamping on the 3 or 4 chords of the songs which we were playing, and that has been difficult for each one those people, despite them having achieved the Grade 8 (Conservatory) level of music education.

Another experience I had in rehearsing Beatles songs for a gig was that the lead singer (who is a professional piano tuner, and was trained classically) had to get me to play the introduction to 'Ticket to Ride' several times while she figured out the timing of the song (in order to figure out where she should start to sing, I think).

Once again, I was somewhat shocked, but not surprised given my previous experience.

It seems to me that what the people on this forum have going for them is a really flexible approach to Learning and playing music.

I am not disparaging the actual learning about music itself that Western Classical Music provides; however, it is more than coincidence that I have encountered again and again people who have been classically trained who feel bereft of being able to do the simplest thing on their instruments when they do not have sheet music, or when some other, non-musical factor is present.

Therefore, I think there is a common element in the 'format' of Western Classical Music training that inhibits or precludes people from thinking that they can do certain things.

Now I am thinking about Yehudi Menuhin and Stephane Grappelli playing together. Apparently Menuhin could not function without his music there, and I think that when he played with Ravi Shankar he notated everything and learned that.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

I've been there drutgat.

While I do think that learning music theory and being able to read music is a necessary skill for all musicians, I certainly do not think it is the only skill needed.

I've known a number of musicians, but those who read and those who do not who cannot improvise, others that could not learn by ear.

I was in a band where the bass player (who could not read music) could not learn by ear. I had to figure out the bass parts and show them to him. All I had to do was show him once and he would get it.

Every additional skill you learn can make you a better musician.

Insights and incites by Notes

Yeah... that Tommy what's his name guy is pretty good

The process of making music has changed so much. We can only hope music educators stay on top of it, as opposed to hanging on to those hard earned skills.
I think of as the day it first dawned on an electric guitarist that the instrument he was actually playing was the Fender Amplifier.

Indeed the electric guitar player plays the entire rig, from strings and pickups to the speaker and everything in between.

And music educators should stay on top of the new tools and developments, but don't forget the old theory in the process. The new things add.

Notes

I completely agree with you, Bob.

I am currently endeavouring to augment my so-so ability to play by ear with learning some relevant, practical music theory. The one basic 'skill' I never fully learned, and which is now coming along better, is to instantly recognize and be able to go to the notes on the guitar neck. I have always know the notes on the first five frets, but recently have been drilling myself using a couple of computer apps, and I am getting there, slowly, but surely.

As you said, every additional skill you can learn can make you a better musician.

I am going to disagree that classical training gets in the way of anything.

I can play straight up classical just sighting reading away on some pretty complex pieces and I can also improv my butt off with the best of them--and have--and can write a pretty good song in 15 minutes.

My classical training has only enhanced my ability to let me go into Carlos Santana free fall when I am given a solo.

I can pull the hell out of my whammy bar on the strat, hold it up to the amp and make it feed back and howl, make the girls scream, and all the while be pulling my notes straight out of a Bach violin piece.

I can jam with anybody, anywhere at any time, and as they say in the black church bands I have played with--"Charts? We don't use charts."

Don't need 'em. Just tell me the key and I'm gone.

And it's all from classical.

Classic example from this forum.

I am getting some comments on a recent song post "Listen to the Rain" being "transcendent."

Thanks--but it is Well-Tempered Clavier.

Bach is the man.

He gave us Blackbird too. McCartney admits it.

Or go to 3:18 here.

https://soundcloud.com/david-snyder-gigs2/nashville-rain

This is classical.

But it is also Purple.

Peace to all.

--The Artist Formerly Known as David Snyder

Hi David,
Loved your post.

I did say in the second part of my original message - wanting to clarify, lest I be taken wrong - that is the format of some ways of being classically trained that is the problem (and not music theory itself).

My experience has proven that.

Not disputing any of what you said - except you are misidentifying Paul having acknowledged that 'Blackbird' was inspired by 'Bouree' as that somehow being in support of Western Classical Music training.

Sure, we might not have that amazing song without Bach having existed - but we also probably would not have had the greatest canon of popular song and the incredible innovations The Beatles made if they had been trained - McCartney has been crystal clear throughout his life that learning theory is not for him, and might inhibit his creativity.

Bach - obviously hugely influential, but I find him too 'mathematical'; gets in the way of me enjoying his music.

Learning various aspects of theory has been helpful to me, but has not been the basis of me being able to perform and jam with people; whereas, as I pointed out previously, it clearly has inhibited some of the people with whom I have jammed (not all of them, though).

And they were all far better musicians, technically, than I am.

So, we will have to agree to differ.

And as I have also said previously, I think that people on this forum, by their very nature, are able to transcend the kinds of limits that I describe having encountered.

Looking forward to more songs from you.

I can't agree more.

IMHO if someone says classical training hurt them they probably either didn't do it right, lack talent, or are lying.

It's like saying, "I'm a great motorcycle mechanic, but going to school to learn to fix V8 truck engines ruined my motorcycle skills."

Learning something new, does not take away from what you already know, it just adds.

Rock musicians have borrowed themes from classical composers, and a few of them have even written their own classical pieces: John Lord of Deep Purple, Billy Joel, Paul McCartney (with help), and so on.

It's the person and not the theory. A person whom has limited themselves in only one genre, whether it be classical, country, rock, etc limits their musical knowledge.

For example, I am wearing a guitar t-shirt while getting fitted for new glasses one day. The lady fitting me went on about how she plays violin in a classical orchestra as well as string ensembles and such and has done so for many years. She wants to start to improvise as she has never done it before. When I told her the golden rule of improv, that is if you land on a wrong note just move up or down a semi-tone and you will be golden, she was flabbergasted. She had never heard of that before. She only had played the music that was in front of her. She never had jammed before.

My point is that is not classical training or theory's fault. She just never ventured outside the realm of her chosen music. YMMV

Exactly, Bob.

And to say Paul McCartney doesn't know theory is silly. He knows it like the back of his hand. He just says that to be cute. I have heard him talk theory on countless interviews. He may not know it in the the "college" way but it is in his DNA.

When they were practicing for his current tour, they said the band got tripped up on an old tune (I think it might have been Hard Day's Night) because Paul couldn't remember if he was playing a ii, a IV or a vi on the bass at a certain spot and the recording was muddy. So they sat there and kept listening over and over and over until he was sure he had found the EXACT note he had been playing. He is OCD as all get out about the precision of notes and harmony and that's kind of what theory is, no matter how you learn it.

What drives me crazy when I am jamming with some people is when they play the same old tired blues scales over and over and over, and they shoot the cannon off in the first minute. No build. No strategy, just musical porno.

Classical sensibility (which the Beatles have in their DNA whether they admit it or not) is just that--a sensibility. It is all about the FEELING. The slow build. The foreplay if you will. Mediocre guitarists just have sex with their instrument, in the crudest way.

Great guitarists make love to their instrument.

It's the difference between...well, strike that, strike that too...night and day?

If you are a genius you can feel free to do it naturally, but if you aren't, hey a few classical lessons won't hurt!!

Hi Guys,
At the risk of re-re-stating what I have already said, I am certainly not saying that knowing music theory is harmful.

If you go back to my posts and re-read them, you will see I did not state or imply that.

And, David, to say, "And to say Paul McCartney doesn't know theory is silly", is a silly statement itself, because, as with what I refer to above, I am talking about Macca not knowing how to read and notate music according to the Western Classical way of doing that.

As he has said, he can see the movement of notes going up and down (on the staff), but that is about it.

As Notes noted (to be alliterative about it) in his post above, McCartney has worked within the Classical world "with help" - part of that help was to have Clive Davis (and others) be his guide, and part of it was to have one of the tracking programmes produce notation - because (unlike Elvis Costello) he did not want to learn how to write notation for fear of it limiting his creativity (I do not think that it would have).

Paul is not as "OCD" as you say about getting things 'right' - not only does he play songs in different keys now (probably a necessity because of his voice), but some (such as 'Her Majesty') he plays differently live than on record, and he is very 'loose' (i.e., non-"OCD") about getting right down to the right notes (e.g., 'Every Night' in which he consistently now plays the descending figure on acoustic guitar differently than he did).

MarioD, when you talked about the violinist who "...just never ventured outside the realm of her chosen music", that is exactly what I am saying, and what I think is common to many who have had a Western Classical Music training.

I am not blaming the theory here, rather the sensibility that the teachers of that theory often instills in people. Thankfully, we have places like Berkeley.

David, The Beatles' sensibility was to break the 'rules' in so many ways. Macca still does this occasionally - I remember a friend saying about 'Here Today' "Who starts a song with a diminished chord?"

How many people do you encounter in the Classical world who experiment in the ways that The Beatles did (either on their recordings, or in concert)?

David, I love your metaphor, and agree "Great guitarists make love to their instrument". I also completely agree with what you said about some people "shoot[ing] the cannon off in the first minute. No build. No strategy, just musical porno".

For me, being somewhat technically and theoretically 'challenged' with regard to my knowledge of music theory and my ability to perform technically well, I think that a 'less is more' approach to building solos can help to counter that tendency - to a large extent, I think that, it is not what you do, but how you do it; as you say, it is about feeling.

I am loving the exchange of views here.

It's all good man.

These conversations are fun.

We aren't really arguing after all.

We are just "conversatin'" as they say in the hills of North Carolina.



Now I gotta go play my banjo...and drink some shine....