Posting your creativity online is not for the faint of heart. You have to have a rather thick skin. Thankfully, most people on the BIAB site are respectful and nice. However on some sites there are always that one or two. While I think it's helpful to get real positive constructive feedback, rather than just LIKES, there are other responses that go far beyond helpful. The other problem I find with social media is that you only have someones written word without all the other communication we usually see, someones facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc. Many people are just not good at writing appropriately.

They say everyone has an opinion. As a songwriter, though, you deal with an aspect of modern life that people even just 15 years ago didn’t have to deal with: how quickly an online consumer of your music will offer that opinion.

It’s not just the immediacy of opinions, though. If you’re involved in the creative arts at all, it can be shocking — if you’re not used to it — how harsh, callous and hateful those opinions can be.

How do you deal with haters? And what’s happened to common decency when it comes to expressing a dislike for music?

It’s an important aspect of being in the arts these days, and I don’t suppose it will change much in the foreseeable future. So how do you deal with negativity?

If you’ve been posting or streaming your songs online, and you’re having a hard time coming to terms with people who express hate for what you do, I offer some advice:

Stop reading comments. Easier said than done, but do what you can to simply quell the interest in what others are saying online. This is not the same thing as saying that you shouldn’t care what people think. But there are other — and frankly, better — ways to get people’s opinions.

If you must read and respond, always take the high road. Never let someone’s hateful comments allow you to respond in kind. No matter how harsh they are, reduce it in your mind to the essential “point” they’re making, and then respond as if they worded their comment respectfully. You’d be surprised how much this can disarm an online troll.

Don’t take someone’s negative comment as evidence that you’ve written something bad. Everything you ever write will have those who love it and those who hate it. A bad comment, on the face of it, is not evidence that your song is bad.
Be courageous, and keep your long term vision. You became a songwriter for a reason, and one person’s (or even thousands of people’s) opinions shouldn’t be allowed to sway you from that vision.

Online bullying is horrible, there is no doubt. The people who do it can be amazingly normal in most other aspects of life, and it simply makes you shake your head to understand why they allow themselves to descend to the levels they do to express hatred.

The worse thing you can do is succumb and descend to their level. Be strong, remember why you’re doing this, and keep moving forward.

Well said! Bravo!

Belladonna,
nicely said.
I have slightly different take.

In my opinion, there is a huge difference between "hate" comments and negative comments. Hate comments...well, they are hate comments, nothing to argue there. Negative comments can actually be very helpful if they are sincere and offer a backdoor for improvement.

I am a proponent of what can be referred to a harsh critique...At times it is better to scrape off wound, so new skin can re-grow faster

This is an interesting topic for a variety of reasons.

First of all, a person's comments say more about the person making the comments than about the person who is the object of the comments. Comments are generally opinions, and as such, they testify to the mind and heart of the person who is sharing them.

Another interesting aspect of sharing our opinions about music or any kind of personal expression is that some reviewers are actually just saying whether they like it or not, which is highly subjective and not usually what the song writer wants to know. Given the large number of musical genres, the chances are probably slim that any of us will post a song that appeals aesthetically to most people on the forum. Yet, the average person, in the spirit of "honesty" feels compelled to share their dislike or like for the song.

Any time I've ever posted a song, I started with the assumption that subjective comments weren't going to be useful to me. What I wanted to hear was whether or not people could detect what I was trying to accomplish. Whether they noticed the effort made to achieve good time, rhythm and meter. Whether they noticed word play, dual meanings etc, especially if two possible interpretations of a word gave the song two completely different meanings. Whether they noticed and could accurately identify the hook and the melody and the signature guitar riffs. Those are completely different considerations than whether or not all those elements work together to please the listener.

An intelligent person can appreciate things he/she doesn't find pleasing to the ear, if there are other things about it that stand out as being done well. As a general rule, I think its good to ask yourself what the song writer was trying to accomplish, then comment accordingly. I never listen to country music, but some of my favorite BIAB song writers are masters of that genre, and it is a pleasure to watch how they make their magic happen over and over again. But if you were to ask me if I liked the songs for the sake of listening, I'd probably say no. That answer is not a reflection on the songs (which are awesome), it is a reflection on my preferred musical genre, which isn't country.

Does that make sense?

JohnJohnJohn yes!!! RustySpoon I do like your idea of honest, frank but constructive comments. I wouldn't really call that negative, but a constructive comment, if you really have something to say that might help someone or make a difference to improve the song. However as we all know, some people are really sensitive to anything said about a song and may not benefit from the comment and unfortunately it raises negative emotions in that person. Also, sometimes it's way over someone's head the advice given and also may not be helpful. I do think sometimes we would all benefit more from honesty rather than "Good write" or "Another Good One", but I think most people would think it's close to suicide. I think it's in the way something's presented and a lot of people may not know how to do that.

Pat Marr, Yes, a technical, objective comment about the write is more helpful than just "Likes". But then I've also found some raw, unpolished less technical songs that stirred my emotion, so for me I can't really say it's all about how professional or polished the writer or musician is. I've found great songs in all genre's, even metal music my son listens too. I tend to like COOL Lyrics and music that emotes and that can happen in many genre's, but again that's just my preferences. I do agree everyone should be applauded for all their hard work and effort just to produce a song as we all know it's not easy.

Obviously the write is of importance but for the User Showcase IMO the most important factor is your use of BiaB and the roll it played in your production. I’ve frequented another forum where the focus is primary on the lyric and melody with little emphasis on production/arrangement values. Those folks can get vicious in a heartbeat. They rip people apart over one line, etc. They seem to have enormously inflated senses of self importance. I think think folks here take a more holistic view of the song. But if one asks specifically for feedback on an aspect of a production they will typically receive it, negative or positive, and it is almost always well stated and civil (even when negative). As a “reviewer” if one is looking at the lyric, the melody, the chord structure, the arrangement, the miix, the mastering, the vocal or instrumental performances and, of course, the use of PG Music products there is a LOT to comment on if one chooses to do so. I tend to comment on the aspects that I feel comfortable in offering a honest opinion and avoid those for which I have little or no experience. FWIW, etc

Bud

Well, when you can't control trolls, you just ignore them, but here is idea that can potentially resolve some issues related to misunderstanding that can arise among normal human beings:




Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly think this is very important topic and if one wants honest critique, there should be a way to indicate if that person is open to less than "positive" comments

Bud Well said, you summed up this site perfectly and most of us here really appreciate BIAB and PG Music. Also, all the super talented people on this site. It has made all the difference in our music experience.

RustySpoon, So great, Love this, funny!!! We all need a personal threat level symbol. Ha! Ha!

I think many times a song is posted without much direction regarding why the post exists.

When a song is posted for listening pleasure, say so. If a song is posted as a lyrics showcase, say so. If the poster is seeking advice, then say you're seeking advice about so and so.

When a person seeks to develop or showcase an audio production skill or technique and is seeking advice or feedback then state that is the goal. I believe it is also nice for the reader to be given some background information so there is an understanding of what skill level the poster believes they are at. Obviously there are different expectations of someone posting "my first ever recording" versus a song released by someone that earns an income from recording or audio production.

There are many different reasons for a song posting. Without knowing why a song is posted it is way too easy to have feelings hurt.

By the way, great topic in need of much discussion. Belladonna I'm very glad you opened this topic.

I totally agree....it's best to be specific about what type of 'direction' the OP desires.

Me....if I post a song, it's finished, and I'm only concerned about how the mix translates to other systems....not if my song is appealing or deserves a second listen.
If one does give a listen I'm sincerely grateful and more so if they commented on the mix and thought the song actually sucked.

Knowing that song writing is an extremely personal endeavor it takes courage to put one's song writing efforts out for public comments or scrutiny.
But....we're all adults here and there's always going to be someone that chimes in who will be perceived as too honest, rude, not patronizing enough or just plain insulting.
No matter...I must take the bitter and the sweet, maintain thick skin and ignore the 'bitter'.

I have no tolerance for anyone being cruel with their comments.

That's my take....a good day to all.

My take on the showcase is that any song posted is open to comment. Most comments are very positive. On occasion I will give a suggestion based on my perception of said song. However I never do it in a hateful or negative way. I feel all of us on these forums are very respectful to those whom post here.

I have had hateful negative posts on other forums. One person said my stuff was not music at all, it was just garbage. But I tried to listen to his music and it was all rap. Of course his view of music is totally different then mine.

Here people from different genres are very respectful to others. I for one really appreciate that.

Jim, I like your idea of the song creator actually giving more information if they want more of a critique other than just presenting a song. Here on the BIAB Forum, it says "User Showcase" so in some ways that says it all. I think many people are just showing what they created with BIAB. But sometimes someone may want more feedback on their songs the production, mix, melody, lyrics, etc. Also, people are at different levels of abilities. So, I think you're correct in that if someone wants more information other than just "Likes" then more information from the poster is helpful. Any I like Misha's sensitivity meter. Ha!! just kidding.

The other thing is that some of us, myself included, may not be skilled enough with technology to really offer input on the mix, production other than just what we would hear, so I notice I tend to comment about lyrics, melody and overall feeling, emotion of the song.

Thanks Chulaivet for weighing in. Mario, I have had the same on other sites, so nice this one is friendlier. Also, I've heard "Don't Mess with Old People" They don't like being old in the first place, so are already in a bad mood. Ha!! Just Kidding. We're all headed there if we're lucky.

Oh boy....shaking my head.
Being reminded of what I think of "rap" that person sure had some nerve.

One person's perception of music is another person's definition of noise.

Back to it....

Well done piece of thinking, Belladonna. Advice that may be well taken. Also, a praiseworthy line of responses from distinguished forum members. I'll add a thought and be brief, if that's possible.
When I hear one of the contributions, just about the last thing on my mind is how that song could be better. There are plenty of threads that allow for technical and aesthetic discussion. Hearing a song is hearing a song, IMHO. If I simply say, "good job," that's a way of saying, "listened, liked, keep up the good work." After a while, we begin to follow each other's work. If I have been lavish with praise at any time, it has been to add extra encouragement to something going the way I like it to go.
There is something of the Simon Cowell complex that many people today want to be a part of. Notice, Simon surrounds himself with warm and friendly supportive judges. A little bit of Simon goes a long way.

Ed Shaw, You have a wonderful, simple reflection on just appreciating someone's creativness without alot of judgement and a cheering on when things are going well. That's a nice way of commenting, unless someone is wanting more and probably they should ask and give more specifics as to what they are seeking feedback on. I agree a little Simon Cowell goes a long way and too many people are trying to be one and come across that way.

Sorry for the bump, but here goes.

When I think of all the things that "we" go through as independents to get to something presentable, there aren't enough people commenting at all to cover them all. I'm happy if someone notices one thing about what made "me" think this was a project worth completing, and if some of them are urging me on to stretch a bit further, I'm happy to read them--even if I'm exhausted and just put it in the suggestion box for future stuff.

I think it's probably always been this way. Unless I write a song that affects large numbers or even impacts a culture, then no individual will ever give as much thought to that song as I did. At the level of my "audience", everybody combined can't give as much reaction. That's why we have to please ourselves first, last and foremost.

On that note, where are you guys posting that draws hate comments?

I like Pat's comments. When I was posting at Acid Planet (now defunct), it was a posting venue heavy with EDM and other electronica makers. I knew if one of my songs peaked into the "charts" I'd be getting comments like, "I don't usually like this kind of music, but I think this was pretty good." Even more likely, I'd get comments like "Great track. Check out my latest joint." Now, neither of those was "hateful" (though there were certainly trolls there) but neither was either of them helpful...except every comment tended to get you more exposure.

So you could get more comments like that.

Does a version of that happen here? That jury is still out with me. Am I posting too much? Probably, but when I'm done, up it goes. In between, I'm just trying to clear out the archive for Dave, and promote other uses of BIAB.

As for comments, I try (and sometimes fail) to gauge where a person is on the great continuum of "talent" and "skill" and not post negative/destructively constructive comments to people who maybe can't benefit from another POV anyway. More power to us all.

I've told this before, but it is worth repeating. When I was just a boy, I wrote a song that I was sure would change the spiritual lives of millions. My grandmother said it was "cute". That wasn't "hateful", but it still hurt. My skin is way thicker now, but it was a good lesson in refusing to let the opinions of others deter you. That doesn't (to me) mean you shouldn't let them influence you. For the record, she was way righter than I was.

I've written but a few songs ever meant to have meaning, purpose or social impact. If I have something to say, it's said lyrically. I write for personal enjoyment and fun. If you ask me, I'll typically say I can write a song about any topic one would request. I can but most likely it will be woefully lacking. I rush things and I can go back to every song I've recorded and find something wrong lyrically, arrangement, production or performance - most times, something with each of those elements because I rush and don't take care to critically examine and correct little and not so little things I'm capable of completing. Criticism is expected and deserved.


I love Noel96's critiques and analysis and if one of your songs get his review, you should feel like you've written a gold record because he has the knowledge and talent from years of study and he's seen something worthwhile to take some time with your song and to comment. It's a songwriters highlight to get one of his critiques. At the same time, I've paid money to have Taxi throw away one of my songs. None of my User Showcase releases have ever drawn the attention or comment from Dr. Gannon. He rarely comments, but you've done good work if he does take time to comment.

My guess is if any here on the forum ever achieves commercial success with one of their songs, it will likely to be viewed and interpreted by the public in such a way that was not foreseen by the writer.

As a songwriter, I look good on paper but that has not translated into me becoming a songwriter by trade or even to attempt to make a living from music. I'm curious to know if anyone has been writing longer than me. I had my first song copywrite in 1959. Anyone go back further? I've had a home recording studio of some type since 1968. I've had more than a dozen songs commercially released. I've sold a song to a two time Grammy nominated Producer and it's being distributed worldwide. I've had a song stolen. It's all a paper castle.

I have a long and storied love-hate relationship with songwriting, recording and performing. I've become frustrated at times and given away my entire studio worth thousands of dollars and lost all interest in writing, recording or performing only to rebuild it all again. I only enjoy performing when I'm actually performing. I do not like the preparation, practice or commitment of performing. I do enjoy being a sound engineer for bands and events.


Good songs and good songwriting success boils down to exposure. Read about Gordon Lightfoot, John Mellencamp, Bob Segar and so many others who were touring and playing many of their original songs years before they garnered a break and achieved fame. Their songs were always great songs but were not accepted or sought after by the public until the song became associated with the artist and their fame. If Steve Young, Bob Dean, Floyd Jane, Tom Adams, Bud and Janice, Tangmo, and countless others here on the forum are ever discovered and become a huge commercial success, their existing catalog will also be discovered and some of their work we've been enjoying may become staples and standards in the music industry.

Charlie, I’m impressed. My first original jazz song was not until 1968. I did, however, have good recording equipment a bit earlier than you, soon including a Teak 10” that I still own.

This is a really great point to discuss I think. When we post our content on the internet, we set ourselves up not only for praise, but also criticism. For many people who just begin sharing their work with the public they hope to hear praise and aren't aware of the darker, less-constructive side of some people opinions and how they carry themselves, and it can certainly leave people disheartened, discouraged, or sometimes make them want to give up. I think it's important to always important to come at things with a critical eye, but only speak on it if it's been asked for directly. I think it's okay to say you don't want the criticism, but I also think that if someone asks for constructive feed back it doesn't give others license to tear them and their work down.

I have never seen anybody tear another user down here on the PGMusic forums, and I think it's lovely that everyone is so supportive.

Well, it has gotten to be a bit of a family, here.
As such, a thicker skin might be in order, but nothing
on the order of Facebook and Reddit.

A little while back, David Synder made a really insightful post about the PG Music forums.

It's well worth the read. In case you missed it, here it is...

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=516213#Post516213

Regards,
Noel

P.S. Charlie Fogle, you have a private message!

Thanks, Noel. That whole thread was a good read.

But, rather than bumping up another older thread, I want to ask (as someone who is still a "new guy" in this forum family) about something David Snyder said--or seemed to be saying, as I may well be misunderstanding.

He said: "It (the positives of the showcase) could NOT work if all you did was post and had little time to respond to those who commented on your songs. Then, the whole system breaks down.

I've noticed from the beginning that forum etiquette (here) included thanking people for their reviews/comments. I think I understand the impulse. People you "know" have taken the time to respond, and a "thanks" is warranted. I'm just a bit uncomfortable following it "too" often. IF making a comment in my own thread did not bump the post back to the top of the pack, I'd not only feel more comfortable, but I'd gladly do it.

(insert moments of reflection here)

I think, in typing, I've thought of a way to work around this. Funny how that happens.

But I'm still going to click 'submit' because I didn't do all this typing for nothing.

Hi Tangmo,

When I have a thread in Users Showcase, I like to thank people who listen to my work because they didn't have to and if they took the time to comment, the least I can do is to be respectful.

Personally, I like that my song gets bumped back to the top for a short while. The forum moves quickly these days and getting bumped back up exposes the song for a bit longer and gives those who might have missed it first time around a chance to be critical of it. For me, I've learnt a lot from constructive criticism over the years. I've also gained a lot of songwriting confidence because people have said that they like what I've done. Both these aspects have been extremely valuable for me and have helped me grow as a songwriter.

Eventually, a song moves on and progresses its way through the back end of the forum. For a short time, though, it gets to stand on stage in the spotlight

Regards,
Noel

A year ago there was a very contentious thread (a rarity here) regarding bumping your posts in the user showcase forum. Ironically, several of the more negative responses were from members who never or very rarely post there. However, they seemed to be incensed that a song that had left the first page would appear again at the top via a bump. It resulted in an experiment for which posts that were responded to would not move to the top but stay in their relative position. This meant that a song could drop permanently off the front page in a day. Civil comments about this resulted in the current protocol being restored. Another example of the responsive and positive PG Music customer service.

A forum, IMO, should not be a rapid fire scenario like social media where posts are buried in a manner of minutes. It's been said (in that thread and this one) but I'm gonna get redundant. We and I hope many others will always take the time to respond with a thanks (and often more) to those who took their time to listen and comment. We do all this for nothing but fun and are humbled when members take their time to offer comments. These comments are very supportive to us whether a "rave review" or constructive civil criticism - I love alliterations. Simply stated were it not for BiaB AND this forum we would have stayed retired from creating music after leaving it a decade earlier.

We deeply appreciate those members of the user forum who choose to participate in this exchange and contribute to the community. I've mentioned before but I've been the admin of a large board and served as a moderator on other boards and I have NEVER seen a community like this. The lack of mean spiritedness and outright trolls is amazing. We have made face to face friends here and as a couple of decades long bluegrass folks we are learning from them and other members how to write and produce different genres. That has brought us joy.

So no apologies from us for bumping our and other members' posts. If for whatever reason this is found offensive the Eagles have a great song called "Get Over It"

Bud

PS Hey Charlie, thanks for the very kind words in your post above!

Guys...I do understand. I'm not ragging on the way things are done here--not with what people do, and not with the way the forum software operates. I actually LIKE to revisit threads to see what others have said. This is the "discussion" that I can sometimes feel the "lack of" from having put music "out there". And as often as not, it will move me to give the song another listen. And I'm not talking about MY songs or threads, but YOURS.

I was asking because David seemed to imply that things "break down" if that doesn't happen...and I don't want things to "break down". But I do want to feel "comfortable" with every choice and not feel like others are thinking I'm "slacking" by not always doing it.

Maybe it will vary from piece to piece.

Hey, please don't don't think my post above was directed to you...I was just reminded of the old thread that I mentioned. And like Chief Black Hawk said, "every man must find his own path."

Bud

Thanks Matt. That first song was a fluke but it was a real song and a real copywrite and puts me in what's becoming a rather small field of people. I received my first tape recorder for Christmas 1967 and upgraded the microphone sometime the following year. I've been buying and changing out gear ever since.

No worries, Bud. I guess it was a can of worms that I shouldn't have opened. I love all you do. And all Noel does.

Dave, on the other hand...

AND..... you forgot to mention that I wrote my now infamous song as a result of that conversation.....

POST BUMPING BLUES

That was a fun but at times heated discussion. Ahhh the good old days.

hi belladonna this was a great read for me and the others who commented on this post lots to ponder on thanks really encouraging eric !! things can get nasty for sure