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Posted By: lambada Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 04:22 AM
Hi All

Just wondering how you are all doing? Not good for the older demographic, especially if you're in some kind of institution. Living in Hong Kong, it (and the demonstrations previously) have been a part of my life for a while now. As an elementary teacher, I've been off school for a month and it seems we'll go back at the end of April. I now teach from home - on line.

We've done the mad rush for face masks and hand cleaning alcohol not to mention the bizarre rush for toilet paper! No food shortages now and people are starting to chill out a bit, so there is a danger of more local infections as people let their guard down. I got a lot of info from Wuhan in the early days and that was surreal.

I think Italy is probably the most realistic scenario for what will happen in democratic countries. I dread to think what will happen in 3rd world countries with no public health care systems in place. Anyway, stay safe, don't fall for the fake news etc, but don't underestimate it.
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 04:30 AM
Originally Posted By: lambada
Hi All

Just wondering how you are all doing? Not good for the older demographic, especially if you're in some kind of institution. Living in Hong Kong, it (and the demonstrations previously) have been a part of my life for a while now. As an elementary teacher, I've been off school for a month and it seems we'll go back at the end of April. I now teach from home - on line.

We've done the mad rush for face masks and hand cleaning alcohol not to mention the bizarre rush for toilet paper! No food shortages now and people are starting to chill out a bit, so there is a danger of more local infections as people let their guard down. I got a lot of info from Wuhan in the early days and that was surreal.

I think Italy is probably the most realistic scenario for what will happen in democratic countries. I dread to think what will happen in 3rd world countries with no public health care systems in place. Anyway, stay safe, don't fall for the fake news etc, but don't underestimate it.


I am more concerned about the Stock Markets at the moment. Living off Superannuation with a fair percentage in shares. (No longer living for free).

Here in good old Oz we have brawling in the aisles for a few rolls of toilet paper. Bring back the phone book I say.

Keep well

Tony
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 06:33 AM
Things are definitely going to get worse before they get better.

It would be nice if the administration stopped trying to muzzle the health officials and allowed them to speak freely. Honest assessments by people who actually know what they're talking about would be preferable.

"Hunches" and talk of "miracles" by misinformed bureaucrats aren't helpful.

Anyone have a spare bottle of hand sanitizer?
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 04:41 PM
I knew things were going to be bad but it hit home yesterday morning when I got a call asking me if I had an interest in coming out of retirement.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 06:27 PM
My nursing home is on total lockdown meaning no visitors. Fortunately, I got out to see my wife on Sunday.

Canadians will know of Smokey Point just N of Maryville, WA where my eldest son lives. He flew home this morning and Smokey Point has had 8 related deaths as of yesterday. They have been combining clinics to try to contain the virus. It's especially affecting we older pharts.

If it gets in here, I'm dead!

Some of the staff is/are wearing masks.

It's impossible to find Lysol, hand sanitizer, particle masks, etc. The shelves are bare in Walmart, etc.

Any ideas for a good filter?
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 07:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
.................
Any ideas for a good filter?


Maybe this will help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiC56E9t0r8

Running and ducking for cover!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 07:54 PM
That was hilarious Mario!
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 08:27 PM
Well found Mario, does put a lighter spin on a difficult issue which at some point will affect most of us somehow.

Some time back I had six stubbies (small bottles) or Corona Beer and woke up a bit sick. I guess to avoid being sick from Corona one needs to be more temperate.

Tony
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 08:54 PM
Not a valid mask.....

Attached picture 1.jpg
Posted By: rharv Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/10/20 09:14 PM
Originally Posted By: sslechta
Not a valid mask.....

Your image shows a 2003 version
of course that wouldn't work .. it's decades behind! smile
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 11:29 AM
Tony,

The best way to avoid being sick from drinking Corona Beer is to not drink it! grin

There's much better brands out there. LOL
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 11:41 AM
It's the end of the tourist season here. If it can stay away from here for one more month I'll be very happy.

I read someone from the non-muzzled WHO predicting that about 70% of the population will get it, most mild, some will hardly know, and 2-3% possibly deadly.

Although I'm of the age group it affects, I doubt it will affect me that much if I get it. I rarely get sick, and when I do it's usually mild -- one cold every 15 years or so and I can't remember the last time I got the flu. Considering that I work the 55+ market here in Florida and have done so since 1985, they shake hands, hug, and kiss us too, it's a pretty good record.

I know the press is sensationalizing it. On the other hand I know it's serious for those vulnerable. So it's good to be informed and cautious.

Let's hope our brightest scientists come up with a vaccine soon.

Do you know what goes good with Corona?

Limón in the neck of the cerveza bottle. laugh

Insights, incites and a lame attempt at humor by Notes
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 11:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
My nursing home is on total lockdown meaning no visitors. Fortunately, I got out to see my wife on Sunday.


It's impossible to find Lysol, hand sanitizer, particle masks, etc. The shelves are bare in Walmart, etc.

Any ideas for a good filter?


Don,

Don’t worry about any kind of mask or filter for yourself. Masks are primarily designed to keep someone who has an infection from passing it on. They are not really designed to keep you from picking up an infection. Besides, the very best masks require special fitting.

The administration of your nursing home needs to be vigilant in getting the employees to stay home if they are sick.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 01:30 PM
Where we are at right now from a Public Health perspective is it is an ill conceived notion that this is no different from seasonal influenza.

Seasonal Influenza spread is limited each year by the fact that (1) we have a vaccine against it, and (2) even though the antigens mutate each season there is still a certain amount of herd immunity that mitigates both the spread and the severity.

We have anywhere from 20,000 to 80,000 deaths from influenza each year. There would be more deaths except for the fact that when influenza sufferers develop pneumonia, they are put on ventilators in an ICU and pulled through the crisis. Take note of the fact that each flu season finds both emergency rooms and ICU resources somewhat overwhelmed by the number of infections.

The Corona virus. New virus. No herd immunity and no vaccine available for about a year. I was musing how our very definition of an epidemic alerts us to a problem well in advance of it arriving. An epidemic is when the number of cases is more than one standard deviation over the average. If you had zero cases before now, then a handful of cases is by definition an epidemic. That seems crazy unless you understand the math of an epidemic in a completely un immunized population.

I used to ask a question in an Epidemiology class that I taught. Would you sign a contract with me, for me to work for you for one month, with my starting pay at one cent a day, and the stipulation that you had to double my pay each day for a month? On day fifteen, my pay still looks pretty reasonable at $163.84. On day 20, it’s already looking less reasonable at $5,242.88. By day 30 I’m earning a whopping $5,368,709.12. This is the way a completely unmitigated infection moves exponentially through a population.

There have been descriptions of how the Italians went from preparation to crisis in their response to this virus. They completely cleared all departments of a hospital of cases that absolutely did not need to be there. Day one, the hospital was a virtual ghost town. Then a small population that grew to challenging, then became overwhelming. They became so overwhelmed that people over 65 or with underlying conditions were triaged out of the process and did not have resources wasted on them. That is the reality.

Don’t let anyone convince you that this is no different than the seasonal flu. It’s not, by a long shot.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 01:39 PM
Re: Possible vaccine. There is a company attempting a vaccine production shortcut based on a rather remarkable bit of bioengineering that would cut the production time to 3 months from 12 months. The company that is trying this is staking its whole economic future on the process because they have committed their entire financial worth to this one project. On one hand, it shows they have confidence but it could also prove to be a reckless decision.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 03:03 PM
Keith,

Thank for your knowledgeable and well-informed analysis.

We are on day two of our lockdown and my son's area in Washington State is even in a worse condition which brings the matter even closer to my heart.

The worst-hit are we elderly whose immune systems are already tired and weakened.

As for sickened staff staying home - they generally can't afford to miss work so they attempt to hide it while they expose everyone to whatever they are carrying.

It's not the visitors that concern me, it's the poorly trained staff.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 04:39 PM
Bob,

My late brother, Gordon, lived in Oregon and every time that Joanne and I would weekend down there ( from Seattle ) we'd catch the worst case of Blitz-Winehart flu imaginable. If we went North to Canada, it was the Labatt's Blue Flu.

BTW, Canadian beer is 6%, not 3.2%.
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 07:40 PM
Had a bit of a chuckle. Here in Oz we had a rush on toilet paper (and several other items) due to panic buying. This got to the stage where fights occurred in the aisles of supermarkets. The supermarkets limited the number of toilet rolls per person which created complaints.

Here we are not a week later and the latest complaint is the supermarkets are refusing refunds on toilet paper (and several other items purchased in panic buying.) as having overestimated requirements in panic buying is not a valid reason for a refund. (Tickled my fancy this).

Keep well all

Tony
Posted By: rharv Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/11/20 07:47 PM
That's funny.
Do they not plan on living long enough to use the amount of TP they bought?
It's not like it is going to go bad or anything .. or that they will invent a newer better solution before you can use it ..
Just don't but any for a while, you'll use it up .. or your kids will <grin>
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 02:14 AM
I am 72 and my wife is 75. I have mild COPD. Eva, my wife is in ok health.

I have to "assume" we will both die from this if we get it. I have cleaned the cars and the house with Clorox spray and wipes to better than hospital specs. Eva is a clean freak to began with so she just had a super fun time with all that cleaning.

I have very few real reasons to leave my house. If this gets really bad I will wear my hazmat suit I use to spray chemicals with my tractor to the super market.
I am sure that will turn some heads....lol
That is about the only place I need to go.

Because I live near the Florida keys I am always prepared with enough water and food for at least six months. Two gen sets and pumps to pump water for the toilet
300 gal of gas in the boat to put in the gen or the car.

We have goats and sheep and more chickens than we can eat. I stock a good bit of normal meds like antibiotics an pain meds both for the family and the live stock along with serious first aid stuff.

OH BTW I have plenty guns and ammo. I also have enough guitar strings not to run out for a couple of years.

If the internet goes down, no problem, I have a 200 watt tube guitar amp I am sure you will hear it...lol

I survived two years of Vietnam and I will get through this also.

EDIT: I lived for a long time before I ever saw toilet paper so I still remember what to do....
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 06:45 AM
I was amused, slightly, of the riot caused by the University of Dayton (Ohio) closing their campus.

Students wanting to be in school!!!!!

...Deb
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
....I also have enough guitar strings not to run out for a couple of years....

smile
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 11:26 AM
Billie,

Thanks for putting a humorous twist on this morbid situation.

We, too, don't expect to survive if either my wife or I contract this killer virus.

The media has killed any reference to the known deaths in Washington State but my eldest son is a sheriff's deputy and also lives at Smokey Point where people have reportedly died. We may never know the whole story.
Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 11:27 AM
I hope that folks around the world who take a cavalier attitude toward this realize that even if they are not in a high risk category they can be responsible for passing it on to a friend, family member or stranger who is at serious risk.

My wife and friends will tell you that I joke all the time about nearly everything but I have to admit that I can conjure up no humor regarding this situation.

Be well,

Bud
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 12:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I hope that folks around the world who take a cavalier attitude toward this realize that
even if they are not in a high risk category they can be responsible for passing it on
to a friend, family member or stranger who is at serious risk.

My wife and friends will tell you that I joke all the time about nearly everything but I have
to admit that I can conjure up no humor regarding this situation.

Be well,

Bud


Same here Bud. I joke around a lot but can't find anything funny about this virus. Well maybe one thing. Why a run on TP? That end is not what gets infected! No store around here has any TP, disinfectant soap, or masks. Why? Masks are only for the infected and health care personal. Regular soap and water works just fine. Just use common sense. However that is something that just doesn't exist anymore in a lot of people.

We are concerned as our daughter works in a pharmacy and one son works in a auto store and is in contact with all customers.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 03:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I hope that folks around the world who take a cavalier attitude toward this realize that even if they are not in a high risk category they can be responsible for passing it on to a friend, family member or stranger who is at serious risk.


I so agree! That thought terrifies me. Sadly that goes both ways. Last night we celebrated my dad's 76th birthday. They had us over for pizza, cake, all that kind of thing. I loved being there; but did make mention that we may have to change things up in a little while. Their reaction was "I'm sure it will be fine." But why risk it? Of the kids there, they ranged from 13 to 24. They have active scholastic and social lives; meaning A LOT of contact with people. While it may not be here just yet, ironically 2 cases were discovered 45 minutes south of us yesterday.

I get extremely nervous at the potential risk that may be coming. I keep a level head, and am not an alarmist. I also don't have to be too bright to see that they are handling this very differently than I've ever seen. Not just in 1 country either.

If you have kids or grand kids, and we get to that point of having to self quarantine for a bit. Don't make it difficult for those who love you to protect you as best they can.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 03:35 PM
I just lost my first gig due to COVID. A pool party we have played for at least 10 years.

Since common colds are caused by a different coronavirus, and since I rarely catch a cold (one every 15 years or so), and when I do it's very mild, I figure I have a pretty good chance of making through this infection.

On the other hand, I'm being careful. Not panicking, just being careful.

But I'm still gigging in close proximity to people.

----

A few people have asked, "Why toilet paper". I figure if you are quarantined, it's a convenience you don't want to do without.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 04:20 PM
Two pieces of good news I heard from Dr. Siegel on Fox this morning. The first is we don't hear much about cases in the southern hemisphere which ties in to the comment about not being able to return TP in Australia. It's summer there. Nothing much being reported in S. America or Africa. Same thing. This virus like other cold and flu viruses seems to be seasonal. It doesn't like hot weather, the UV goes up and that kills it. Spring is coming to all of us in the north. It appears it should be slowing down in the next month or so and on into the summer.

Second is a new report out of S. Korea. They were hit hard a month ago but had millions of testing kits. Their new stats show exactly what several doctors have been predicting over the last few weeks and that is the 3-4% death rate is way skewed because of not enough test kits to really get a handle on how many already have had it and recovered. We know the exact number of fatalities but don't know the other number. S. Korea now says the death rate is about .5% which makes a lot more sense. Still a worry for the elderly in nursing homes, none of this changes that but for everybody else probably not a big deal. I'm a pretty healthy 74, never smoked so no lung issues. Yes, I'm concerned and taking precautions but I'm probably fine if I get it. Got an email from the VA yesterday saying everybody entering the building is getting screened and no visitors will be allowed in most cases.

Tom Hanks and his wife Rita are in Australia right now under quarantine and they're posting on social media a lot. They're both a healthy 63 and he's diabetic. So far they're doing fine it's basically no different than a cold. Same with all the athletes like some NBA players. They will almost certainly be fine by next week sometime. Yes, this has people in a panic but that will pass. I agree with no immunity this will eventually go through the majority of the population but with a big "probable" slowdown coming with warmer spring and summer weather. That should allow a vaccine to come online in time for the next cold season. If not then we will cycle through this again in 8 or 10 months but they should certainly have a vaccine by then.

Basically no reason to panic but nursing homes really have to be careful, this good news certainly does not apply to them but otherwise we'll be fine and don't worry about the stock market either. This will turn out to be another huge buying opportunity just like 2008 was. There will certainly be short term economic disruptions like flying, large gatherings of people at sporting events, music festivals, your gigs Notes and all that stuff. But for you Notes, you're also in a warm, humid climate and it's getting hotter quickly now. There's nothing coming out of Mexico either, again hot and humid down there. I think this should pass in Florida and the South pretty quick. Right now it's the northern area's where winter is still solidly in force, it's cold and dry that will continue to get hit until spring.

Just a final comment about Italy. We tend to think of Italy as a first world country but it's really not, just like Greece and the whole eastern Mediterranean isn't. They're not the Congo but they're not all that advanced either but the good news for that area is it's pretty hot so that helps with this.

Bob

Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 04:35 PM
I have this seemingly nowadays curious interest in science. Hence I’m more attracted to what an epidemiologist might say rather than an internist MD pundit on a news channel.

COVID-19 is a novel disease with no meds to treat symptoms and no vaccine. The asymptomatic incubation period is extended. South Korea has drive through test venues. You cannot get a test today in virtually all of America. Testing is more critical to America than the stock collapse...and I say that as a person exposed to the vagaries of the market. Oh, and then there are the 700 vacancies in the CDC.

FWIW, etc.

Bud
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 05:47 PM
Well said, Bud.

For those that find this funny, just watch this report from Kirkland, Washington ( near Seattle ) of moments ago:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2296086910685459&ref=notif&notif_id=1584043434418536&notif_t=live_video
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
Well said, Bud.

For those that find this funny, just watch this report from Kirkland, Washington ( near Seattle ) of moments ago:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2296086910685459&ref=notif&notif_id=1584043434418536&notif_t=live_video


I don’t think anybody finds this funny however, the behaviour of some people is. If not funny then ridiculous or silly.

Don’t kid yourself it is not happening south of the equator we in Oz are not immune. Watching the news just now there is a fair chance the Grange Prix will be called off. They were already running practices yesterday. There are many cases in Oz. We have spent weeks already trying to kerb the issues.

Am I worried? In the Australian vernacular “Too bloody right I am”. I’m a diabetic in my 70s living in a retirement village. In the village I’m very involved in the community being President of the Village Bowls Club I have some critical decisions to make. I’m resigned to the fact we will get this but listen carefully to any advice from all over the world.

My rant
Tony
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 07:20 PM
Mario, that is sooooo funny. Anyway who's afraid of the big old "Corona Virus"??? Okay, just joking and do realize some people do need to take it seriously. Did anyone hear that it was genetically engineered by the Russians to help Trump win the next election? I heard old liberals were at a higher risk of dying from the infection.
Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
...I heard old liberals were at a higher risk of dying from the infection.


Zero smilies here. We are both legally elderly.

J&B aka Old Liberals
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I have this seemingly nowadays curious interest in science. Hence I’m more attracted to what an epidemiologist might say rather than an internist MD pundit on a news channel.

COVID-19 is a novel disease with no meds to treat symptoms and no vaccine. The asymptomatic incubation period is extended. South Korea has drive through test venues. You cannot get a test today in virtually all of America. Testing is more critical to America than the stock collapse...and I say that as a person exposed to the vagaries of the market. Oh, and then there are the 700 vacancies in the CDC.

FWIW, etc.

Bud

Well said Bud! I'll trust science over Faux News any day!
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:22 PM
Hey Bud, I do understand both legally elderly and liberal. Hey, I'm elderly too age 66 but not concerned since it appears the virus was engineered not to bother us. Somehow I'm not totally surprised at your post since you had already banned me some years ago and yes, I was expecting you to chime in. I'm surprised you even read my posts since you know I'm a Trump supporter. I'm not apologetic about my beliefs since America is still a free country, thank God and I have a right to my thinking and preference as so do you as that what makes the world go round. So, I'll keep my sense of humor as it keeps life more fun at least for me and I don't have to take Xanax every day.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:30 PM
Nobody is saying the virus doesn't exist in the southern hemisphere, of course it does. It's just the warmer summer climate tends to suppress it somewhat or at least that's a supposition right now. It is true there are few stories about this from South America for example.

And at age 74 I'm right there with you Tony. I live in a retirement community too but not any kind of assisted living, just a 55 and older community. Everybody loves to say hey, I'm a healthy 74, age is just a number and all that rot. I'm not naive, healthy or not there's no way people our age are anywhere near as strong as someone in their 50's much less 30's. We're basically healthy for our age. Whatever that's worth.

Test kits have been a problem for sure but yesterday they're saying there are over a million available now and 5 million basically in transit and available in the next few days and ramping up from there. We will have a handle on this fairly soon I think and my guess is the overall death rate will start coming way down. Still a heckuva risk for us older folks and the more compromised your health is the worse it could be.

My friend and neighbor is 78, been a smoker all his life, still smokes a bit even now but he's one of those where he's been cutting down for years but seems to not make progress, his lungs are compromised, he has high BP, a heart murmur and other issues but not been in a hospital for about 20 years.

He has to go into town to the Walmart for food shopping and he's worried and I'm a bit worried for him too. But, just checking the website now there is not one case reported within 20 miles of me, there are a 6 in surrounding communities, mostly from the cruise ship and they were already isolated several days ago. So, what's the risk then? High? Low? Medium? I have to say pretty low. Already in the last two weeks there have been several fatal car accidents around here and many other deaths and accidents from all kinds of causes.

Keep this in perspective. It's foolish to simply ignore this but equally foolish to suddenly feel we're all under a death sentence. There are risks all around us and have been all around us our whole lives. We're merely the lucky survivors, how many friends and relatives have we all lost over the last 10 years?

Bob
Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:36 PM
Donna, I “chimed in” regarding this thread well before your post. I could care less who you support or your politics. Live and let live is my mantra. I just did not find that remark amusing and would not have irrespective of who posted it.

Hey who let Facebook in? Back to music.

J&B
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 08:42 PM
Hey Bud, I didn't for one minute think you would find it amusing. Liberal humor died with George Carlin. So live and let live. You are entitled to your thinking as well as I am also.
Posted By: Tangmo Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 09:27 PM
Many areas of the U.S. Are like "developing nations". Sometimes these areas are in close vicinity to the "first world". The virus doesn't care about wealth. It also doesn't care about conspiracy theories. I am much like it.

Maybe there is some overreaction, but given the facts elucidated in previous posts, overreaction seems prudent.

There is a lot more mask-wearing here than is usual, but what it is signaling is "I care about you.". If we all take that attitude--factually informed and caring--we'll get through this better than if we don't. What form that caring takes may change over time, but if it remains at the core, better.
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
Billie,

Thanks for putting a humorous twist on this morbid situation.

We, too, don't expect to survive if either my wife or I contract this killer virus.

The media has killed any reference to the known deaths in Washington State but my eldest son is a sheriff's deputy and also lives at Smokey Point where people have reportedly died. We may never know the whole story.


Our best wishes go out to you and everyone for that matter.
I am sure we will never know the whole story for any part of the world.

My wife and I have been together so long I can not imagine living without her. This is a really scary situation. We have made all the preparations that I know how to do. Made the last trip to the store today.

We have isolated ourselves (to the extent we can)but that is on seventy acres so we don't feel real cooped up.

This situation should inform you how little help you can really expect from the government. How is it possible we do not have enough medical equipment, not even rubber gloves.

When this gets really bad doctors will be forced to save younger people and let old people like my wife and I die.

I have no real idea how bad this is going to get but I am preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/12/20 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal

Second is a new report out of S. Korea. They were hit hard a month ago but had millions of testing kits. Their new stats show exactly what several doctors have been predicting over the last few weeks and that is the 3-4% death rate is way skewed because of not enough test kits to really get a handle on how many already have had it and recovered. We know the exact number of fatalities but don't know the other number. S. Korea now says the death rate is about .5% which makes a lot more sense.


Mortality rates can only be skewed downward, not upward by a lack of testing. Case fatality rates on the other hand (which is what you are apparently citing) are far more dependent on the level of testing and I would argue that it is impossible to ever precisely know the case fatality rate for a disease. Case fatality rate is something that we use as a planning tool to respond to pandemics and has always been calculated using some very complex mathematical models because you will never know the number of undiagnosed cases there are for any disease. One of the criticisms that we get is that the models have been deliberately designed to avoid underestimating case fatality ratios so that we are not under prepared. Because of that you are always going to be able to criticize the estimated ratio as too high.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/13/20 12:00 AM
Of course Keith. This is merely an observation as reported by health professionals. I've been thinking more about this while I was cooking and eating dinner. Try this out and I'm using the word "you" in the general sense.

Most of us here have been to large sporting events, music festivals and the like with very large groups of people at least a few times. Take the Miami Dolphins stadium for example, capacity just over 65,000. I once saw a Rams game in Anaheim, roughly same number of fans. Say they had a promotional drawing for a brand new $50,000 pick up truck. One person out of 65,000 won that truck. Would anybody really be upset they didn't win? Of course not, you're sitting there surrounded by this huge sea of people and the odds are 65,000 to 1.

The population of the US is about 331 million. 65,000 divided into that is just under 5,100. Just for round numbers say 5,000. That means if the confirmed number of cases in the US reaches 5,000 that equals one person in that stadium. We'll almost certainly get to 5,000. Take it up by 10. 50,000 cases, ten people in the stadium. OK, that's not too farfetched either. If those ten won the truck again would you really be upset thinking you should have won, you must of been cheated or something? Again, of course not. 6,500 to 1 is still very long odds. They're not that bad in Vegas.

Take it up by a factor of 10 again. Now we're talking a half million confirmed cases in the US, 500,000 people. That's still only 100 people in that stadium. Does taking it from 10 to 100 out of 65,000 really upset you that much? You're still sitting in an absolute ocean of people everywhere. A massive parking lot, probably takes you a good half hour just to get out of the lot when the game is over. Surrounded by thousands and thousands of people in their cars. See my point?

Now a factor of 100 equals one in 650. When's the last time you went to a grocery store, even a huge one like a Walmart and 650 people were there? Lets say that one was there and he/she was infected. What would it take for you to get it? Beat odds of 1 in 650. There are tons of meds that people take every day because they need it where the documentation says the chance of dying from that med is around that number. I know I would take those odds if I had some bad affliction.

How many times have we all gone shopping and there's only 10-20 people there and two cashiers? What does it take to catch the virus from that one in whatever number of people at the store? First, very close contact, they basically have cough or sneeze right on you. Will you allow yourself to be that close to a total stranger in this envoronment? Probably not but sometimes it can't be helped. The other way is they left the virus on a door handle to the mens room or on a cart, a store shelf or even a can of coffee they touched but then put back. We all know how to handle that situation now.

Add all this up and is this something to really get upset about to be so worried you're paralyzed with fear?
Half a million cases just to get to 1 in 650 and even if you came fairly close to that one the chances of catching it from them are still quite low.

These are exceedingly rough numbers, you could throw out the population who are old enough or infirm they never go out shopping but other than that you would count everybody else including newborns because the kid could have it and they do the mom probably has it too. But still, now I'm assuming a total number of cases at a half million and fell free to take the odds down to 1 in 500. Still long odds. Will we get there? Who knows but even if we do consider these numbers.

Now if it goes up another factor of 10 to 5,000,000 cases and the fatality rate gets to 1 or 2 percent or 50,000 to 100,000 deaths. OK, time to hide in your well stocked, end of the world, zombie apocalypse/nuclear war bunker until there's a proven vaccine.

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/13/20 02:01 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Of course Keith. This is merely an observation as reported by health professionals.

Bob


I was just pointing out that the source of this information didn’t know the difference between a mortality rate and a fatality ratio which have two different uses in Epidemiology.

As far as the rest, the worst case scenario is that 150 million people get infected. If we accept .5 as a “more reasonable” fatality ratio as you suggest, then 750,000 people die.

News on estimates

The numbers that are most concerning

Triage measures in Italy
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/13/20 02:12 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Nobody is saying the virus doesn't exist in the southern hemisphere, of course it does. It's just the warmer summer climate tends to suppress it somewhat or at least that's a supposition right now. It is true there are few stories about this from South America for example.

Sort of like how it's suppressing the dengue virus they're dealing with?

The first case in Latin America wasn't reported until February 26. So it seems a bit premature to assume anything about how it behaves.

Quote:
Test kits have been a problem for sure but yesterday they're saying there are over a million available now and 5 million basically in transit and available in the next few days and ramping up from there.

I'm not sure who "they" are, but we're not seeing test kits around here. Despite assurances to the contrary, people who need testing simply can't get it.

Ironically, one of the most high-profile American couples with the virus - Tom Hanks and his wife - wouldn't have been able to be tested if they hadn't been in Australia.

And even if the US had millions of kits available, we simply haven't got the infrastructure in place to process those many kits.


Quote:
We will have a handle on this fairly soon I think and my guess is the overall death rate will start coming way down.

If by "have a handle on this" you mean we could contain this outbreak in the US, we're well past the containment stage.

That leaves mitigation, with a goal of reducing the rate at which the virus spreads.

Given an exponential growth rate and a population with no natural immunity, I'm not sure how well that's going to go, but there aren't a lot of options at this point.

As for the death rate, you're right - the current estimate based on the numbers from South Korea is around 1%. But that's not an even spread, and for people above 60 years in age, it's particularly brutal.

Quote:
Keep this in perspective. It's foolish to simply ignore this but equally foolish to suddenly feel we're all under a death sentence.

Am I under a death sentence from this virus? Statistically, I'm not.

As for perspective, with exponential growth in a population with no immunity, 1% death rate could be a really, really big number.

Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, says that complacency could lead to the death of "many, many millions".

I'm hoping you're right and I'm wrong, but until we know better, let's neither panic, nor encourage complacency.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/13/20 02:26 AM
Yeah, I'm gonna err on the side of safety! Cut way back on my trips to public places. Wash my hands frequently. Wipe down surfaces I must touch with strong wipes. Etc.

And remember this is not just being cautious to protect yourself since "I am healthy"! It is also so that you don't spread the virus to people who are not as healthy as you. This whole BS approach of "don't worry, everything will be fine" gets people killed!
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/13/20 06:28 AM
The scariest part of the whole virus event? Living in an area where the hospitals have some of the lowest ratings in the country.

If you go to the hospital, believe the nurses not the doctors. The doctors were probably the goats of their graduating class.

...Deb
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 01:22 AM
It's good to see that our "very stable genius", (his words, not mine), finally realized this pandemic wasn't something he could BS his way through. It would have been even nicer if he hadn't downplayed it earlier and wasted weeks, if not months calling it fake news and a Democratic plot.

As always, he placed the blame on others for the delays and failure to respond to a health crisis. We can always count on him to do that. As he said this afternoon, "No, I don't take responsibility at all".

Of course you don't, Mr. President.
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 01:51 AM
The realities of isolation have begin to set in.

I "assume" my wife and I don't have the virus.

The inability to be tested limits what I can do. The guy and his wife who live down the street have to go to work. They have no other option. They have three small children all school age. The schools have been closed. If I could test the kids and me and my wife I would keep the kids until this is over. This testing thing is Fk up!!!

My fishing buddy who lives sixty miles away called last night and told me to stay home. He said he would bring me anything I need and drop in in the drive way.There a few really good people left in the world!!

I am about 99.99% sure my house and surroundings are virus free.

What do I do with stuff delivered by UPS or anyone else? Put on my hazmat suite an disinfect it before I take it inside?

We have a old house that is sort of in the country so some of my chickens come to the back porch. They are the only friends I get to touch. Isolation is very unnatural.

I read there 10 nursing homes in Washington State that have Corona virus.God help you if you have to depend on the government for anything.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:15 AM
quoting Planobilly:


"The inability to be tested limits what I can do. The guy and his wife who live down the street have to go to work. They have no other option. They have three small children all school age. The schools have been closed. If I could test the kids and me and my wife I would keep the kids until this is over. This testing thing is Fk up!!!"

Fortunately, a Chinese billionaire pledged to send 500,000 test kits to the US around noon today.

https://www.sfgate.com/cnet/article/Alibaba-co-founder-Jack-Ma-to-donate-500-000-15129020.php

Around 3:30PM this afternoon, Trump bragged that we would have 500,000 test kits available next week, yet he never mentioned Jack Ma, the guy who's giving the test kits to us.
Posted By: rharv Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 11:02 AM
Quote:
Had a bit of a chuckle. Here in Oz we had a rush on toilet paper (and several other items) due to panic buying. This got to the stage where fights occurred in the aisles of supermarkets. The supermarkets limited the number of toilet rolls per person which created complaints.

Here we are not a week later and the latest complaint is the supermarkets are refusing refunds on toilet paper (and several other items purchased in panic buying.) as having overestimated requirements in panic buying is not a valid reason for a refund. (Tickled my fancy this).

Keep well all

Tony
Three days ago I jested about your TP post.
Then I went to the local grocery store last night. My mission; pick up some chicken breasts for the wife's recipe.
I failed the mission.

Meat section was totally cleaned out except for a commercial size bag of drumsticks.
No beef or pork to be seen at all.
Many other aisles were empty too.
Surreal.

/we just made something else for dinner, I'll not participate in the initial panic
//you're welcome
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 12:05 PM
Billie said:

Quote:
What do I do with stuff delivered by UPS or anyone else? Put on my hazmat suite an disinfect it before I take it inside?


UPS, FedEx, and the US Postal Service appear to functioning unmolested. It seems to be the means that would succeed in intentionally propagating the virus.

Imagine the chaos it would cause if those services were to be shut down.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 12:10 PM
I've now lost 3 gigs due to COVID. A fourth one is still undecided.

2 one-nighters my market pay about what a 5 night gig in a club pays. So I've lost a lot of this month's income.

When you gig for a living, you don't get paid when you are cancelled. Under the circumstances I offered to either return their deposit or let it float for the next time they book us.

There are a lot of Canadians that we play for. Last night we played at an RV resort that about 600 Canadian RVs park for the winter. Almost all have gone back to Canada.

I talked to a few that are left. They bought US health insurance for their 6 months here in Florida, but they are going back home anyway because they say the health system in Canada is much better than that of the US. (I've heard this many times by Canadians).

I'm sorry to see them go, but I understand.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: Roger Brown Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 12:50 PM
I looked up some numbers this morning, just out of curiosity. This is NOT intended to make light of or diminish the seriousness of Covid 19, but simply to provide perspective....so don't blow me up.

Currently, as of the moment I'm posting this, there are just over 150,000 confirmed C-19 cases globally, in 149 countries, and 5,617 have died. In comparison, the 2019/2020 seasonal flu, in the U.S. alone, has had over 26 million cases, 14,000 deaths, and 250,000 hospitalized. Again, that's globally vs. U.S. numbers alone.

The 2009 H1N1 virus, in comparison, led to over 12,000 deaths in the U.S. - the global estimates are varied, somewhere between 150,000-580,000 deaths (I pulled these #'s from the CDC).

This is clearly a very serious virus, but IMO it doesn't warrant the panic that has ensued. Wash your hands, be smart and stay safe.
Posted By: furry Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 12:59 PM
Couple of hundred case in the UIK, Nothing this far north as of yet. Maybe our dreaded midge will kill the bugger before it gets us
Posted By: Roger Brown Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 01:07 PM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/11/media-fueling-coronavirus-panic-under-fire/

not sure if that will link....interesting article.
Posted By: furry Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 01:13 PM
Agree with that Roger, the media have gone completely bonkers over this and are probably helping to give people heart attacks worrying over it
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 01:42 PM
I guess you think Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), is part of the media hype;

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anthony-fauci-fights-outbreaks-with-the-sledgehammer-of-truth/2020/03/12/b3f81f52-6473-11ea-845d-e35b0234b136_story.html

While I agree that we don't need to panic, acting like it's no big deal is incredibly dangerous and short sighted.
Posted By: furry Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:10 PM
Oh it's a big deal Bob, that's for sure, but the media have made people panic buy worldwide and they should be held accountable
Posted By: Roger Brown Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:19 PM
Maybe you should go back and carefully re-read my initial post. You know....the part where I said "This is NOT intended to make light of or diminish the seriousness of Covid 19...."

or maybe when I said "This is clearly a very serious virus".

Where, in that, did you possibly presume that I was "acting like it's no big deal"


Reading comprehension....it's a thing.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:33 PM
Roger,

My reading comprehension is fine, thank you.

But even mentioning "media hype" is playing into the administrations constant attempts at trying to get the American public to distrust the media.

I'll choose the media over a self serving politician with a rampant history of lying to the public every time.
Posted By: Roger Brown Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:40 PM
And there it is.

You...YOU...are the one making this political. You have no clue about my political beliefs. Nothing I posted, or said, was political. I posted statistics....from, I might add, the CDC. Purely informational. And yet somehow you've managed to twist this around to be about Trump, who I personally couldn't care less about.

And yes, the media has absolutely hyped this. I don't base that on what Trump has or hasn't said, just on what I've seen with my own eyes. Like people in a fist fight in a grocery store over CANNED VEGETABLES. That type of behavior is stupid and unwarranted. If you disagree with that, or take exception to the factual numbers I posted, you're nothing more than part of the problem.

Have a nice life.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 02:52 PM
Roger,

I would be saying exactly the same thing regardless of which party was in office right now, all other things being equal. If a Democrat or a Republican lies to me, then its still a lie and I would call them on it.

By the way, I'm a registered Republican.

Take care, and I hope you have a nice life too.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 03:17 PM
Not long ago, I finished listening to a Trump lead news conference, after the major players came out of a strategy meeting in the situation room. My take on what I heard is that the administration is no longer in denial about the seriousness of the situation, and if they follow through we will no longer be talking about Republican or Democrat responses to the pandemic but a unified national approach. Symbolically, Trump was wearing a Blue USA cap instead of his usual Red MAGA cap.

Just as Congress and the Administration came together right on the bare edge of economic collapse in 2008, it appears from the language used in the news conference that the accusations of HOAX have come to an end, and the levers of government are now being pulled to mitigate the spread of COVID-19 albeit with some rewriting of history and some self congratulatory back patting for their now visionary response. It’s sad that we always have to wait until we are on the bleeding edge of disaster before we acknowledge what the experts say for weeks in advance, but at least this morning, our government appears to have all been singing from the same page of the hymnal.

Visits to nursing homes will be banned, sick people will stay home with government backed financing for their sick leave, test kits are being made available, special websites set up and more. We can still argue what could have been done earlier to have made our response more robust and less financially difficult than we now face, but there are no longer any vocal deniers of the problem at the national level.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
While I agree that we don't need to panic, acting like it's no big deal is incredibly dangerous and short sighted.


Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
But even mentioning "media hype" is playing into the administrations constant attempts at trying to get the American public to distrust the media.

I'll choose the media over a self serving politician with a rampant history of lying to the public every time.

Well said Bob!

Those who speak dismissively of the dangers of Coronavirus (COVID-19) are potentially causing much greater harm than the media "hyping" those dangers.

The risk is very real. Seniors and those with compromised systems are especially high risk. Many WILL DIE! And if you are not in that age group you can still carry the virus and infect those who are at risk!!!

If the media causes your local Walmart to run low on toilet paper, well, La Dee Dah! So what? On the other hand if the increased awareness causes lots more people to stay at home and that results in fewer people spreading the virus to my parents and yours then that is a HUGE WIN!

One more thing while I'm on my soapbox. After the concerted efforts of government, media and responsible citizens actually succeed in containing the virus, the same folks who are dismissive of the risks will be the ones exclaiming "See, I told ya it was no big deal". SMH!
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 05:03 PM
Originally Posted By: KeithS
Not long ago, I finished listening to a Trump lead news conference, after the major players came out of a strategy meeting in the situation room. My take on what I heard is that the administration is no longer in denial about the seriousness of the situation, and if they follow through we will no longer be talking about Republican or Democrat responses to the pandemic but a unified national approach. Symbolically, Trump was wearing a Blue USA cap instead of his usual Red MAGA cap.

Just as Congress and the Administration came together right on the bare edge of economic collapse in 2008, it appears from the language used in the news conference that the accusations of HOAX have come to an end, and the levers of government are now being pulled to mitigate the spread of COVID-19 albeit with some rewriting of history and some self congratulatory back patting for their now visionary response. It’s sad that we always have to wait until we are on the bleeding edge of disaster before we acknowledge what the experts say for weeks in advance, but at least this morning, our government appears to have all been singing from the same page of the hymnal.

Visits to nursing homes will be banned, sick people will stay home with government backed financing for their sick leave, test kits are being made available, special websites set up and more. We can still argue what could have been done earlier to have made our response more robust and less financially difficult than we now face, but there are no longer any vocal deniers of the problem at the national level.

I generally agree with your assessment. But, as I'm sure you know, trump is only on-board the sane train as a matter of pressure and convenience. He'll be red-hatted and off the rails again shortly!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 05:10 PM
There's nothing new concerning a huge glut of new cases here or anywhere else. A few hundred here, a few hundred there. 247 confirmed cases in in the entire state of California as of 3 hours ago with a population of about 38 million. Will it go up of course it will. An 82 year old woman with emphysema died while a 89 year old man recovered. Many articles now online by survivors describing basically a bad cold or flu. They say they were scared but ultimately no big deal.

What are we being told to do that we haven't been told to do during flu season for the last 30 years? Wash your hands, stay in if you're sick, cover your mouth and nose if you sneeze or cough, wear a face mask if you're concerned about infecting others but understand they don't help much in protecting you. Did I miss anything?

As far as lack of testing kits in the US yes that has caused us to be way behind other countries. Where are the US cases? Lets assume for a minute that there really are many thousands in California who had bad symptoms over the last few weeks but because of no testing we don't know about them. Wouldn't many of them show up in ER's? Wouldn't those ER's have reported an uptick in respiraitory cases that they now think could have been COVID 19? Any reports like that from ER's anywhere in the country?

In migrant communities all over the country many have no health insurance so they go to ER's. They also tend to live in very crowded conditions like 2 or 3 families in the same house with one bathroom. The ER is their health insurance which is why btw when people like to say there are milliios of uninsured so they can't get care are full of crap. By federal law, anybody can go to an ER and get full medical care with no questions asked. In California especially, those ER's would have been handling many thousands of additional respiratory cases if this virus was so bad and would have reported them by now. An ER waiting room is about the worst place to be if there's a bad virus going around. Whether or not specific COVID 19 testing was available would have had nothing to do with that. If they're sick over the last month or so people would go to the ER and if it was that prevalent and easy to catch the ER's would have been a huge breeding ground.

Where are all those stats from ER's?

I don't trust the Chinese too much but if they actually have millions of cases and untold thousands of deaths and are hiding it I think that story would still get out. This tells me it's not that easy to catch. People and the news are acting like if you walk into a room with an infected person bam, you're dead just like that. They're not actually saying that but the tone, facial expressions and the questions they keep asking guest experts all imply that. Yes, it's huge media hype.

I'm still not overly concerned about this, cautious of course but panicked, oh hell no. This is all about potential. Potentially this is a first step by the aliens us wipe us all out. Potentially this is the worst thing since the Black Plague.

Wait for actual evidence and facts before being freaked out about UPS packages.

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

I generally agree with your assessment. But, as I'm sure you know, trump is only on-board the sane train as a matter of pressure and convenience. He'll be red-hatted and off the rails again shortly!


There is no doubt in my mind that someone finally convinced him that ignoring the experts would be the end of his rule, so he is only doing what is politically expedient. As soon as we are out of the woods misinformation will rule again.
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/14/20 09:47 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
There's nothing new concerning a huge glut of new cases here or anywhere else. A few hundred here, a few hundred there... Will it go up of course it will.

Here's a forecast model based on something more than anecdotal evidence:

https://time.com/5801726/coronavirus-models-forecast/

Quote:
What are we being told to do that we haven't been told to do during flu season for the last 30 years? Wash your hands, stay in if you're sick, cover your mouth and nose if you sneeze or cough, wear a face mask if you're concerned about infecting others but understand they don't help much in protecting you. Did I miss anything?

Large populations - entire countries - have been isolating themselves during this pandemic.

This action is significantly different than prior flu seasons.

Quote:
As far as lack of testing kits in the US yes that has caused us to be way behind other countries. Where are the US cases?

As of March 12, the Johns Hopkins researchers counted about 1,600 confirmed cases in the US. The actual number of cases is likely much higher.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/13/21178289/confirmed-coronavirus-cases-us-countries-italy-iran-singapore-hong-kong

Quote:
This tells me it's not that easy to catch.

The virus that causes COVID-19 seems to be spreading easily and sustainably in the community (“community spread”) in some affected geographic areas.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmission.html

Quote:
People and the news are acting like if you walk into a room with an infected person bam, you're dead just like that.


"Epidemiologists and disease modelers studying Covid-19 told Vox a more reliable global case fatality rate is about 1 percent — but there’s still a lot we have to learn about the disease. And even when we better understand how deadly this virus is, it’s likely to look pretty different country to country."

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/5/21165973/coronavirus-death-rate-explained

But the true danger of coronavirus is unlikely to be the death toll. Experts say health systems could easily become overwhelmed by the number of cases requiring hospitalisation – and, often ventilation to support breathing.

An analysis of 45,000 confirmed cases in China, where the epidemic originated, show that the vast majority of deaths were among the elderly (14.8 percent mortality among over 80s).

But another Chinese study showed that 41 percent of serious cases occurred among under 50s, compared with 27 percent among over 65s.


https://www.sciencealert.com/the-new-coronavirus-isn-t-like-the-flu-but-they-have-one-big-thing-in-common
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 01:56 AM
Hi All. Very interesting reading what everyone has to say and my prayers/good thoughts whatever are being beamed out to everyone from here in Hong Kong. This is an excellent talk given by an American health economist. One of the clearest explanations of what's going down or will/could go down and some interesting statistics that I wasn't aware of. I hold my head in shame at what the UK's PM has proposed for my country of birth, the UK. Anyway, it's Al Jazeera, so the host may irritate a few of you, but the health economist is American and seriously switched on. He starts about 40 seconds in. Really worth listening to, especially if you still think it's a hoax, media scam etc. stay safe guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtSJBETsOqM

Just re watched it and realised it's 2 days old now. I actually watched it on TV a few minutes before I posted it here. From what you guys are saying and would seem that some things are now being put in place to deal with Mr Carona, which is good news.

On a more humerous note, We were actually drinking Corona out of solidarity for the the Brewery which we fear may go out of business! When SARs broke out in Hong Kong, the Government's Tourism gurus had a theme of
'Hong Kong will take your breath away.' crazy
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/apr/09/pressandpublishing.marketingandpr
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 04:34 AM
Predictions, models. I get it. We have to have something to base decisions on. It's called plan for the worst just in case which is a good idea. Just for fun I did a little research into the SARS infection in 2003. The description, symptoms, infection rate sounds exactly like COVID 19. Look at the name SARS. Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome. The two names and descriptions could be interchangeable. If anybody cares read this article from 2003 about using models to predict SARS spread and consequences:

https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/10/831

Scroll halfway down and look at the charts. Same very dire predictions we're hearing now all based on models because hard data wasn't there yet. I'm really struck by the initial similarities between the two incidents. SARS never even came close to the predictions, barely a small fraction. 2003 was before social media and the absolutely suffocating news cycle which I think is making a huge difference in public perception. Don't panic over modeled predictions, wait for the facts.

What really upsets me is my 78 year old friend had to go do some shopping today. He decided to take a longer drive into Palm Springs. He called me this afternoon to say Trader Joes was completely packed with a line waiting to get in. The Vons was the same, Target ditto. He couldn't buy anything and it's all because of these stupid modeled predictions being completely hyped to the moon by social media and regular media. I'm making a prediction of my own: Those big numbers ain't gonna happen, this will blow over by April/May but not with millions getting infected and not 100,000+ deaths.

Basically all I'm doing is choosing to dwell on the positive rather than on the negatives. I'm well aware of both. Here's a quick quote I just saw:

Nelson Michael, director of the Center for Infectious Diseases Research at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, also expressed cautious optimism during a briefing on COVID-19 on March 5. "This is a respiratory virus and they always give us trouble during cold weather," he said, predicting that the coronavirus may react like the flu and cause "less trouble as the weather warms up."

This ties in to what I posted the other day. Is it a fact yet, no but I choose to think this is the case and we'll just have to wait and find out.

If it turns out to be really bad, then freak out. Why do I say that? Because other then the usual standard precautions there's nothing else we can do anyway. Either we get it or we don't and even if I get it I'm not afraid of the odds. Of course of you guys suddenly don't hear from me ever again, well....

Bob
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 06:06 AM
I don't know much about SARS as I arrived about a year later in Hong Kong. House prices had dropped 80%, so I should have, but didn't buy an apartment. If I had, my retirement would have been sorted... My sister left during it or shortly after and she said the fear was palpable. Remember it had a far higher mortality rate, I think about 10% from memory but it wasn't air born. They had trays of disinfectant outside the doors of their apartment and nobody knew what was going to happen. Their fear was that it would become air born. It spread through government housing estates via the badly designed drainage systems. Again, this is from memory. People were terrified, so this time they were a bit calmer here. It was also in Southern China as well, but the numbers were small. Interestingly, my brother is a professor of public health who worked at that time for the WHO and he was very shocked when his young colleague died of SARS aged about 40 leaving a widow and a young family.

For those who are interested, below is an assessment of SARS from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine by Dr Lee Shui Hung MD FFCM. It's worth reading, because it's probably about where the US is now. Apparently the Hong Kong government did not take it all on board either but the whole community in Hong Kong was changed forever by SARS which is partly why so many of them dislike Chinese from the Mainland although ironically most of them were immigrants/escapees from the Mainland post 1945. In the 1980s when I stayed in Hong Kong, people spat in the streets, regularly ate street food etc. If you were caught spitting in the last 20 years you'd be fined.

Having said that, we were more lucky than prepared for Covid-19 and our government has nowhere near as much ability or will to control the population as the Mainland even with their initial cover ups and failures. The government here was afraid to even close the boarders with China for fear of their masters in Beijing. Before the riots prior to Covid-19 we (with a 7.4 m population) had 61 m Mainland tourists coming here in 2018. Surreal figures. Macau, our formerly Portuguese sister SAR is a bigger gambling centre than Vegas! Mainly doing its job of money laundering, Mainland money or so I'm told.

SARS

'Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) reached Hong Kong in March 2003.1 From 11 March up to 6 June, a total of 1750 cases had been identified (Figure 1), and during the same period 286 people died of the disease. Before the advent of SARS in Hong Kong, the nearby Guangdong Province in Mainland China had experienced an intense outbreak of the atypical pneumonia later termed SARS. This outbreak started in November 2002 and reached its peak in February 2003; up to 5 June 2003, Guangdong had recorded 1511 cases and 57 deaths. Later in April 2003, SARS cases were reported in other provinces and cities of Mainland China including Beijing, Shanxi, Neimonggol, Tianjin and Hebei. Up to 5 June 2003, Mainland China had a total of 5329 cases with 336 reported deaths.

From March onwards, SARS was detected in other countries and areas in the Asia-Pacific region. By the beginning of June, Singapore had had 205 cases with 28 deaths, Vietnam 63 cases with 5 deaths and Taiwan 686 cases with 81 deaths.

The SARS epidemic in Hong Kong has gone through three phases. The first was an explosive outbreak in a teaching hospital, affecting a large number of hospital staff and medical students. This phase took place in March 2003. The second phase was an outbreak in the community as a result of the spread of infection from the hospital to the community.3 This reached its peak in early April 2003 when the disease affected a housing estate known as Amoy Gardens; a total of 329 residents in that estate came down with the disease and 33 died. The third phase began in early May, with continuing occurrence of the disease in eight hospitals and more than 170 housing estates throughout the city but with the daily number of new cases declining from double to single digits in mid-June (the time of writing).

The first phase started when a professor from Guangzhou, who had been treating patients with atypical pneumonia in a Guangzhou hospital in Mainland China, visited Hong Kong in February 2003. He stayed at the Metropole Hotel in Kowloon on 21 February. The professor was already unwell when he travelled to Hong Kong and on 22 February he was admitted to the Kwong Wah Hospital in Kowloon. Later he died. From this first index case, 7 other people whose rooms had been on the same floor of the hotel contracted SARS, including 3 visitors from Singapore, 1 visitor from Vietnam, 2 visitors from Canada and 1 local person. Seemingly it was these 7 individuals who, having acquired the infection from the index case, transmitted SARS to Canada, Vietnam, Singapore, and elsewhere in Hong Kong. The local person was admitted to a teaching hospital, the Prince of Wales Hospital, at Shatin on 4 March 2003. From this patient the disease spread through that hospital, ultimately affecting over 100 medical and nursing personnel.

Amoy Gardens
Phase 2 began in early April with the spread of SARS into the community. This was the time when daily new cases reached their peak. The severe outbreak in Amoy Gardens, a housing estate in Kowloon, began at this time. The index patient in this outbreak was a 33-year-old man who lived in Shenzhen and visited his brother in Amoy Gardens regularly. His chronic renal disease was being treated at the Prince of Wales Hospital. SARS symptoms developed on 14 March 2003. On that day and 19 March he visited his brother who owned a flat in Block E of the estate. He had diarrhoea and used the toilet there. His brother, his sister-in-law and 2 nurses who attended to him at Prince of Wales Hospital subsequently developed SARS. By 15 April 2003, there had been 321 SARS cases in Amoy Gardens, with an obvious concentration in Block E (41%).

A thorough local investigation, conducted by the Department of Health in collaboration with eight other government agencies, then indicated that environmental factors had played an important part in this outbreak. Each block at Amoy Gardens has 8 vertical soil stacks collecting effluent from the equivalent section on all floors. The soil stack is connected to the water closets, the basins, the bathtubs and the bathroom floor drains. Each of these sanitary fixtures is fitted with a U-shaped water trap to prevent foul smells and insects getting into the toilets from the soil stack. Clearly, for this to work, the U-traps must contain water. However, because most households were in the habit of cleaning the bathroom floor by mopping rather than flushing with water, the U-traps connected to most floor drains were probably dry and not functioning properly.

Laboratory studies indicate that many patients with SARS excrete coronavirus in their stools.5 As many as two-thirds of the patients in the Amoy Gardens outbreak had diarrhoea, so a very substantial virus load would have been discharged into the sewerage in Block E. Probably the index patient infected only a small group of Block E residents, with the remainder acquiring the disease via sewage, person-to-person contact and shared communal facilities such as lifts and staircases. These residents subsequently transmitted the disease to others both within and outside Block E through person-to-person contact and environmental contamination.

The bathroom floor drains with dried-up U-traps provided a pathway through which residents came into contact with small droplets containing viruses from the contaminated sewage. These droplets entered the bathroom floor drain through negative pressure generated by exhaust fans when the bathroom was being used with the door closed. Water vapour generated during a shower, and the moist conditions of the bathroom, could also have facilitated the formation of water droplets. The likelihood of exposure was enhanced by the small dimensions of the bathroom units (about 3.5 square metres). Virus-contaminated droplets could readily have been deposited on floor mats, towels, toiletries and other bathroom equipment.

The possibility of disease transmission by other routes—airborne, water-borne, infected dust aerosols—has been examined but there is neither epidemiological nor laboratory support for such mechanisms. A team of environmental experts from the WHO, visiting Amoy Gardens by invitation, agreed with the results of the investigation and also declared the buildings, now cleansed and disinfected, safe for habitation.

PREVENTION AND CONTROL
The prevention and control measures undertaken in Hong Kong include: (1) preventive education and publicity; (2) tracing the source of infection; (3) introducing five major control measures (compulsory isolation and surveillance of contacts, stopping school and university education sessions, exchange of epidemiological information between Hong Kong and Mainland China, temperature checking of travellers at points of entry and exit, district-wide cleansing campaigns); (4) strengthening collaboration and communication with Mainland China and the WHO; and (5) developing a quick diagnostic test for SARS.

When the first few cases of SARS were identified, the Department of Health of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government passed legislation to make SARS a notifiable infectious disease. Patients with SARS were isolated in the hospitals, and family or close contacts were kept under surveillance, initially at home but later in isolation centres where they were observed for 10 days.

The public health workers undertook the investigations of the source of infection and the tracing of contacts, and promoted application of control measures including the wearing of masks, strict adherence to personal hygiene, and disinfection and cleansing of affected households and housing estates. Incoming and outgoing travellers were screened for fever exceeding 38°C and were required to complete a health declaration form. Apart from their intrinsic value, these measures served to alert the public to the high infectivity of SARS and the need for preventive measures.

In the middle of May 2003, when the epidemic began to slow down, the Government announced further measures. Three committees headed by senior government officials were established—one responsible for the overall cleansing campaigns and environmental improvements in the housing estates; a second for drawing up programmes to revitalize the economy of the city, including tourism, trade and employment; and the third to devise ways to promote community involvement and partnership in improving the physical, social and economic environments of the city. Additional funds were approved to support research on diagnosis, treatment, and vaccine development for SARS. A Centre for Disease Control and Prevention would be developed to strengthen surveillance, research, training and collaboration with other health authorities regionally and internationally.

At the end of May, the Hong Kong Government of the Special Administrative Region appointed a committee of nine experts from the USA, the UK, Australia, Mainland China and Hong Kong to make recommendations on future prevention and control of the disease. I am a member of this team.

Canada
It is pertinent to refer briefly to the SARS outbreak in Canada, the country most severely affected outside Asia. As mentioned earlier, 2 visitors from Canada were infected at the Metropole Hotel, in Kowloon. Returning to Toronto they developed symptoms and later gave rise to a cluster of 16 other cases including 4 family members, 2 close contacts and 10 healthcare workers. When the outbreak in Toronto began in March 2003, the WHO issued a warning notice to travellers intending to visit the city—a notice later withdrawn after representations from the Canadian Health Ministry. When no further cases were reported, the outbreak seemed to have been brought under control. However, in mid-May there were further cases. In view of the evidence that more than one generation of cases had occurred, the WHO restored Toronto to the list of infected areas. By 14 June over 90 probable cases had been reported in this resurgence. This Canadian experience highlights the importance of continuing vigilance even when cases begin to decline.

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SHORTCOMINGS
The SARS outbreak reached epidemic proportions so quickly and explosively that the health and hospital authorities were unprepared. Initially there was an acute shortage of masks and protective clothing for the medical and health personnel, who were hard hit by the disease. Lack of epidemiological information about the disease hampered the prompt application of effective control measures. Because of inadequate communication, panic developed in the community and weakened cooperation and support from the public. Some contacts did not respond when the Department of Health asked them to attend for surveillance and quarantine. There were difficulties in designating hospitals for the isolation and treatment of SARS patients, because Hong Kong has no infectious-disease hospital as such. Since the wards of the general hospitals were not designed for patients with infectious disease, infection of healthcare staff became a serious issue. By June 2003, 386 medical, nursing and other healthcare workers in the hospitals and clinics had developed SARS and 8 of them (4 doctors, 1 nurse and 3 healthcare assistants) had died. Some hospital wards had to be closed temporarily, and general patients were transferred to other medical institutions to make way for the SARS patients. In the absence of a specific isolation centre for infectious disease, contacts were accommodated in holiday and recreation centres outside the city. Not being designed for the purpose, these were far from ideal. There was much evidence of distress among front-line healthcare workers and members of the public, many of whom were anxious, fearful and depressed. The SARS epidemic damaged not only health but also tourism, international travel and trade, social and business activity, and educational programmes.

Several features of the epidemic rendered control measures difficult in Hong Kong. Initially the cause was unknown, and lack of information on the mode of transmission hampered efforts at control. Because of the large number of cases, patients were admitted into various general hospitals unequipped to handle highly infectious diseases and numerous medical and nursing staff became infected. The lack of isolation facilities allowed infection of patients admitted to the same wards for other reasons. Many patients when admitted to hospital did not have the typical signs of SARS (fever, cough, evidence of chest infection), thus worsening the difficulties of cross-infection control. At one point there was discussion whether a single specially equipped hospital with 600-1000 beds should be designated to cater solely for patients with SARS or with fever on admission. Another issue was whether there should be permanent and proper quarantine facilities for isolation of contacts. Surveillance of contacts at home was not considered effective.

A further controversy arose over the International Health Regulations (IHR). These specify three diseases—namely, cholera, plague and yellow fever—about which the WHO must be notified by the health authorities concerned. The city must then declare itself ‘infected’ with that disease until after twice the incubation period from the last case reported. At the beginning of the SARS epidemic there was doubt whether Hong Kong should declare itself infected with SARS. Although the existing IHR did not include SARS, the WHO had issued a warning notice advising travellers not to visit Hong Kong because of the SARS epidemic—an advisory that drastically reduced the number of international visitors. In May 2003, when the epidemic began to show signs of decline, the WHO set out three conditions for withdrawal of the advisory—no case of SARS spreading to other cities outside Hong Kong; number of new cases less than 5 daily for three days; and number of patients in the hospitals less than 60. At the end of May, the WHO deemed these conditions fulfilled and lifted its advisory on international travellers, though Hong Kong remained on the list of infected areas.

In some circles the WHO is perceived to have over-reacted to the epidemic,8 causing unnecessary panic on the international scene and putting unjustified barriers in the way of persons from ‘infected’ areas wishing to attend such events as business exhibitions or international sports activities. It is noteworthy that, in May 2003, the World Health Assembly passed a resolution to revise the IHR. This was an appropriate decision since the emergence of new and highly infectious diseases has made the existing regulations out of date.

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LESSONS LEARNED
The lessons learned by Hong Kong can be summarized as follows:

SARS differed from previous epidemic infectious diseases in its explosive spread, which caught the health and hospital authorities by surprise and ill-prepared.

Inadequate epidemiological information about the disease hampered the prompt application of effective control measures. Insufficient communication with the public led to panic and thus weakened public cooperation and support.

Because there were no specified infectious disease hospitals, there were difficulties in designating hospitals for the isolation and treatment of SARS patients.

The SARS epidemic in Hong Kong not only affected the health of the people but also had social, economic, and humanitarian repercussions. It unveiled deficiencies in the public health arena and in coordination between the Department of Health and the Hospital Authority—reflected in lack of action between 22 February, when the index patient was admitted to Kwong Wah Hospital, and 4 March when the local contact arrived at the Prince of Wales Hospital. In that interval, the alarm could have been raised and front-line staff could have prepared themselves.

There was also deficient communication between the Secretary (Ministry) level responsible for health policy and the management level responsible for operation of the hospitals. Management inertia at various levels hampered decision-making and delayed implementation of effective measures.

The SARS epidemic also shed light on basic failings of the existing healthcare system in Hong Kong—overcrowded wards; poor ventilation in some hospitals; lack of isolation facilities; inadequate intensive care facilities; staff already working under heavy pressure; difficulty in isolating and cohorting patients with suspected or possible SARS, particularly at the point of admission and immediately thereafter.

The effect of the outbreak on intensive care and nursing personnel was disproportionately high. This worsened the pressures on other branches, particularly during the recovery phase when normal services had to be resumed.

Healthcare workers were put at special risk by certain procedures including use of nebulizers, endotracheal suction and intubation, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, nasogastric feeding, and the use of high flow rates of oxygen.9 The high risk presented by these procedures has implications for medical practice and organization of hospital care in the future.

There is a need to strengthen the exchange of epidemiological information on infectious diseases, especially the emergence of new infections, between the health authorities in Mainland China and Hong Kong. The establishment of a Centre for Disease Control and Prevention in Hong Kong should meet this need.

Hong Kong will continue to face the challenges of infectious disease, because of increasing environmental pollution, population movements, the influx of refugees and immigrants, the emergence of new infections and the changing lifestyle and behaviour of the population.10 There is a great need to set up a Centre for Disease Control and Prevention in Hong Kong so as to strengthen surveillance and exchange of epidemiological information with other health authorities, to undertake research and development on new vaccines and to train medical and scientific personnel on prevention, treatment and control of infectious diseases. On the plus side, the epidemic created an unprecedented sense of unity among all sectors—Government, non-governmental organizations, medical and nursing personnel—in the struggle to contain the epidemic. Various foundations were set up by non-governmental organizations and by public-spirited citizens to provide financial support to victims of SARS and their families. The devotion and self-sacrifice of medical and healthcare staff drew praise and appreciation from all sides, and strengthened the city's resolve to cope better with the challenges of infectious diseases in future. In this way, Hong Kong can be said to have turned the threats of the SARS epidemic into opportunities.'
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 09:48 AM
The news media is sensationalizing this, no doubt, that's simply what they do.

Those who read/watch the news are misinformed, those who do not are uninformed.

Since some people have no symptoms, other people have mild symptoms, and the fact that there is a severe lack of testing kits, there is no way to know how many cases are out there.

Since there are an unknown number of unreported cases, the reported death percentage is surely lower that what is reported. How much lower? Without knowing how many unreported cases there are in the world, we don't know.

There is no way to know if someone you just shook hands with, served you your lunch, handed you cash/change for a purchase, gave you a receipt, or touched the door knob before you has no symptoms and is a modern equivalent of "Typhoid Mary."

Are we over-reacting? For sure some are and some are indeed under-reacting. That's just human nature.

There really is no way to stop it now. The fact is, sooner or later almost all of us will be exposed to it. I figure the best plan is to protect yourself so that you increase your chance of getting it later rather than sooner. The later you get it, the more the medical system will know about how to treat it.

I guess it's best to err on the side of caution but not to over-react. On the other hand, if you have a compromised immune system, I think it's best to take this very seriously.

I'm going to stay calm, do what I can, keep my immune system up, and figure if I get it, I'll be one of the mild cases. I don't think I've had the flu since the 1980s (I really can't remember), and I catch a mild cold every 15 years or so.

Good luck to all (including myself)

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 10:31 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal

In migrant communities all over the country many have no health insurance so they go to ER's. The ER is their health insurance which is why btw when people like to say there are milliios of uninsured so they can't get care are full of crap. By federal law, anybody can go to an ER and get full medical care with no questions asked. .


You don’t have a very accurate understanding about what Federal Law requires for hospitals and emergency rooms. Hospitals are NOT required to provide FULL MEDICAL CARE to people without insurance. Hospitals and ERs are required to provide treatment for uninsured patients who present with life threatening conditions. If you show up with something not life threatening, you can be turned away. If you are treated, it isn’t free. The hospital can attempt to collect what they are owed.

The federal law on this is explained HERE.

Based on how the early cases have shown up, I would not expect a large number of cases in the migrant or low income groups until a bit later in the epidemic. The virus is currently being brought into the country by people with the financial means to travel overseas so the initial spread is going to be within their peer group.
Posted By: CountryTrash Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 10:49 AM
I've been reading through this post and contemplated the future from this end of the world.

At least you guys have a better chance than us being in the first world!!

Rumours / Fake news are rife and although people read about the extent and risks nobody really knows what to do or how to change their behaviour.

Masks and gloves are sold out! Hand sanitizers sold out! People are ripping each other off after bulk buying!!

Anyway .. good luck to all over there (wherever that is)
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 02:06 PM
Here's an interesting article featuring Dr. Anthony Fauci just out today;

Fauci: "If it looks like you're overreacting you're probably doing the right thing"

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/487639-fauci-if-it-looks-like-youre-overreacting-youre-probably-doing-the
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: KeithS
You don’t have a very accurate understanding about what Federal Law requires for hospitals and emergency rooms. Hospitals are NOT required to provide FULL MEDICAL CARE to people without insurance. Hospitals and ERs are required to provide treatment for uninsured patients who present with life threatening conditions. If you show up with something not life threatening, you can be turned away. If you are treated, it isn’t free. The hospital can attempt to collect what they are owed.


I don't want to derail this thread but SoCal is ground zero for illegals from Mexico and Central America. Sorry but I use the term illegal, not immigrant. There are an estimated several million just in the LA/Orange County areas. The ER is their primary doctor and they absolutely DO NOT get turned away. Gazillions of local news reports about that over the years. I and a couple friends needed to to to an ER on a few occasions in the last 10 years and the waiting rooms have been packed, sometimes with folding chairs because the regular chairs and benches are full and 99% of the people are hispanics. They have no problem getting care and nobody cares if the ER produces a bill for payment either. There is a ton of cross border traffic and just my opinion, COVID 19 would go through that group very quickly if it was easy to get and it hasn't happened or we certainly would have heard about it.

Lambada what a great history of the SARS thing, thanks for that. No doubt COVID 19 is different so we can't make a direct comparison. My only point is the predictions vs the final reality. That may or may not play out the same in the current environment but I'm hopeful it winds up similar and I really do believe the rise of social media has had a huge bearing on all of this.

Bob
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/15/20 05:15 PM
Here's a great video I found that's a Joe Rogan podcast featuring Dr. Osterholm who is a world renowned specialist in infectious diseases and gives talks at the Mayo Clinic among others. This is very sobering and is poking holes in some of my comments. I'm posting this because I'm more then willing to change my opinion and it could be helpful for others. Unlike news programs where you get a minute two of soundbite info this is an hour and a half and well worth watching.



What's really cool about this is it's a freewheeling discussion with almost no time limits so he's talking about COVID 19 then goes into another point about a deer virus that can get into humans then gets back to COVID 19 so don't bail out when that happens thinking the current virus part is over, it isn't. In the middle of this vid he starts talking about hand sanitizers, masks etc and he blows a lot of assumptions there too, some good, some not. Then later they talk about the "wet markets" in China with every animal imaginable and how these markets breed all kinds of bugs and viruses. Lots of food for thought here.

Bob

Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 08:18 AM
South Florida government is taking things pretty serious. Closing the beached and saying spring break is over.All school closed. Reduced hours for restaurants.

Bringing in the National Guard to help with testing.

In my neighborhood people are not taking this serious. Loud drunken birthday last night. Not changing hugging and such.

Number of cases has dubbed over to weekend.

By fishing buddy has lost over $150,000 in his 401K.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 03:23 PM
Up here all schools are closed and at 8 o'clock tonight all bars and restaurants will be shut down. Restaurants can only have take out orders, i.e. no sit down eating. All grocery and department stores close around 11 pm for disinfecting and restocking.

My son works in Walmart and said there is a run on bullets! It must be that people need to protect their toilet paper!
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 03:53 PM
Washington State represents 20% of US cases.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 05:48 PM
Played a St.Patty gig last night. I thought they would cancel, but they didn't.

As a self-employed musician, we of course had to show up.

We have a few outdoor gigs left this month, I hope they don't cancel, we'll be behind our gear so that'll be our social distance barrier.

Again, I think sooner or later we'll all be exposed.

I got this from a friend - can't verify it though:

--------

Coronavirus and the Sun: a Lesson from the 1918 Influenza Pandemic

Fresh air, sunlight and improvised face masks seemed to work a century ago; and they might help us now.

by Richard Hobday

When new, virulent diseases emerge, such SARS and Covid-19, the race begins to find new vaccines and treatments for those affected. As the current crisis unfolds, governments are enforcing quarantine and isolation, and public gatherings are being discouraged. Health officials took the same approach 100 years ago, when influenza was spreading around the world. The results were mixed. But records from the 1918 pandemic suggest one technique for dealing with influenza — little-known today — was effective. Some hard-won experience from the greatest pandemic in recorded history could help us in the weeks and months ahead.

Put simply, medics found that severely ill flu patients nursed outdoors recovered better than those treated indoors. A combination of fresh air and sunlight seems to have prevented deaths among patients; and infections among medical staff. There is scientific support for this. Research shows that outdoor air is a natural disinfectant. Fresh air can kill the flu virus and other harmful germs. Equally, sunlight is germicidal and there is now evidence it can kill the flu virus.

`Open-Air’ Treatment in 1918

During the great pandemic, two of the worst places to be were military barracks and troop-ships. Overcrowding and bad ventilation put soldiers and sailors at high risk of catching influenza and the other infections that often followed it. As with the current Covid-19 outbreak, most of the victims of so-called `Spanish flu’ did not die from influenza: they died of pneumonia and other complications.

When the influenza pandemic reached the East coast of the United States in 1918, the city of Boston was particularly badly hit. So the State Guard set up an emergency hospital. They took in the worst cases among sailors on ships in Boston harbour. The hospital’s medical officer had noticed the most seriously ill sailors had been in badly-ventilated spaces. So he gave them as much fresh air as possible by putting them in tents. And in good weather they were taken out of their tents and put in the sun. At this time, it was common practice to put sick soldiers outdoors. Open-air therapy, as it was known, was widely used on casualties from the Western Front. And it became the treatment of choice for another common and often deadly respiratory infection of the time; tuberculosis. Patients were put outside in their beds to breathe fresh outdoor air. Or they were nursed in cross-ventilated wards with the windows open day and night. The open-air regimen remained popular until antibiotics replaced it in the 1950s.

Doctors who had first-hand experience of open-air therapy at the hospital in Boston were convinced the regimen was effective. It was adopted elsewhere. If one report is correct, it reduced deaths among hospital patients from 40 per cent to about 13 per cent. According to the Surgeon General of the Massachusetts State Guard:

`The efficacy of open air treatment has been absolutely proven, and one has only to try it to discover its value.’

Fresh Air is a Disinfectant

Patients treated outdoors were less likely to be exposed to the infectious germs that are often present in conventional hospital wards. They were breathing clean air in what must have been a largely sterile environment. We know this because, in the 1960s, Ministry of Defence scientists proved that fresh air is a natural disinfectant. Something in it, which they called the Open Air Factor, is far more harmful to airborne bacteria — and the influenza virus — than indoor air. They couldn’t identify exactly what the Open Air Factor is. But they found it was effective both at night and during the daytime.

Their research also revealed that the Open Air Factor’s disinfecting powers can be preserved in enclosures — if ventilation rates are kept high enough. Significantly, the rates they identified are the same ones that cross-ventilated hospital wards, with high ceilings and big windows, were designed for. But by the time the scientists made their discoveries, antibiotic therapy had replaced open-air treatment. Since then the germicidal effects of fresh air have not featured in infection control, or hospital design. Yet harmful bacteria have become increasingly resistant to antibiotics.

Sunlight and Influenza Infection
Putting infected patients out in the sun may have helped because it inactivates the influenza virus. It also kills bacteria that cause lung and other infections in hospitals. During the First World War, military surgeons routinely used sunlight to heal infected wounds. They knew it was a disinfectant. What they didn’t know is that one advantage of placing patients outside in the sun is they can synthesise vitamin D in their skin if sunlight is strong enough. This was not discovered until the 1920s. Low vitamin D levels are now linked to respiratory infections and may increase susceptibility to influenza. Also, our body’s biological rhythms appear to influence how we resist infections. New research suggests they can alter our inflammatory response to the flu virus. As with vitamin D, at the time of the 1918 pandemic, the important part played by sunlight in synchronizing these rhythms was not known.

What do you all think about that?


Notes
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 06:13 PM
Who knows? The info I posted about the Southern Hemisphere mentions high UV in the summer months can kill viruses. Some viruses. Personally, I don't think the fresh air part means anything but then what do I know?

What I know right now is it doesn't matter whether this thing turns out to be overblown media hype or a huge disaster. The Gov Coumo vid I posted is the reality of where we're at now because all he did is follow the same blueprint all other governments are following at this time. Trump just said the next 15 days will tell the tale so who cares about opinions, we're all in a holding pattern now.

Also, those in the stock market including me haven't lost a cent if you haven't sold anything. If you don't have to cash out because you need the funds, my only opinion is just hold and wait it out if your heart can take it. Maybe buy some gold.

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
This is very sobering and is poking holes in some of my comments. I'm posting this because I'm more then willing to change my opinion and it could be helpful for others.


I commend you for keeping an open mind, Bob. I’ve attended lectures by Dr. Osterholm and read a number of his research papers and he knows more about infectious disease than anyone I can think of. Plus he is a very effective communicator. Anyone who thinks we aren’t facing a public health crisis needs to listen to this podcast.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 06:25 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal

Also, those in the stock market including me haven't lost a cent if you haven't sold anything. If you don't have to cash out because you need the funds, my only opinion is just hold and wait it out if your heart can take it.


The one good thing that came out of the last Federal budget is that the RMD age has been raised to 72, so I have 3 years for my equities to revive before I have to start drawing down.
Posted By: rharv Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/16/20 08:07 PM
Michigan has done much like many other states.
Shut 'er down. Restaurants, bars, gyms, anywhere people congregate.
Of course MI included some unenforceable rules, like take out food places can only allow as many people inside as can manage to remain 6' apart .. sigh
Some people have no depth perception and others have no idea how to guess 6 ft .. and who is standing around measuring to enforce this?

In the end we all need to be responsible.
We've enacted a work from home policy starting tomorrow. I had to write it for my department today (yay me).
At least staff will be safer.
Unfortunately a few of us have to man the stuff they can't from home, and be ready to assist those that need help working from home along the way. (yay me again)
3 of us in a 2 story office should be able to keep '6 ft apart'.
We're doing our best to do the right thing. Whether the employees stay home after hours is anyone's guess but we did what we could, and because we are in the tech business we're trying to help other local businesses do this too.

Almost every support request we received today was for additional remote access for employees of other companies, so it appears others are doing much the same.

I read one study (yeah I know limited sample) where people with no symptoms (didn't know they had anything until tested and exhibiting no symptoms) were exhaling more 'load' (more live germs) than those with symptoms. My thought was it may be related to decreased breathing capacity in those with symptoms, but I found it interesting, since previous thought was the more symptomatic people were more contagious. I think it was an article on the Massachusetts outbreak for those interested.
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 02:32 AM
I will test the sunshine idea pretty soon. I wash my boat with clorox every time I use it. Florida sunshine and salt water will kill most anything including stainless steel....lol The boat must be the most virus free thing I own.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 09:04 AM
I watched the NBC Nightly News and the ABC Evening News on youtube last night it was pretty surreal. Even as old as I am I've got to say that I've never seen anything like this, especially on a global scale.

Even President Cheeto seems to have realized the gravity of what we're facing and has stopped denying what most of us at least suspected might be coming months ago. No doubt he's looking through the lens of how all of this affects his re-election chances but it's better than him calling the whole thing a hoax or a liberal plot against him.

Let's all hope the worst case scenario doesn't come to pass. Dr. Anthony Fauci is a breath of fresh air when it comes to being straight with the public, even though the truth hurts sometimes.

Here's a big old plus one for science over politics and spin, ... especially in a time of crisis.

Take care and be safe.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 09:56 AM
Lost a couple of more gigs frown

Looking at the bright side, it means I have less exposure to possibly infected people.

On the dim side, that's a lot of combined income as Leilani is out of work too.

I play once a week at an outdoor restaurant, if they close this down, I'm completely unemployed except for 2 private parties in April that haven't been cancelled (yet).

Back on the bright side, it gives me more time to work on style and fake disks for BiaB.

I've got two new style disks done, and we just got three fake disks back from the subcontractors I use to choose the styles.

So we are going through the fake disks song by song, playing them in real time, triple checking the chord changes, holds, hits, rests, etc., and making sure everything works as well as it can within the limitations of Band-in-a-Box.

We send our the fake disks to subcontractors to choose the styles, telling them not to favor the Norton styles, but to choose the best style for the song. (If I picked the styles myself, I'd surely favor mine because I know them best.)

Then we'll update the style picker data, make installation routines, web pages, and release the disks.

This should help people who are in self-isolation, as if we are quarantined, we need toys.

I live with my windows open (no A.C.) and here in Florida there is plenty of sunshine. I think I'll spend some time working in the yard.

Good luck to all (we need it)

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 04:34 PM
here is a good resource for factual numbers:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Since discovering this site, I've been marking the numbers on my calendar to chart the daily change.
To give you an idea of how the numbers are escalating globally...

on Monday (yesterday as I write this) the total number of cases globally was 153,524. I'm assuming that was all cases since mid december when the problem was first identified in Wuhan. That's 153,524 cases in 3 months

As of this moment, (one day later) the number of cases is 195,892. And the day isn't over yet.

In one day the number grew by 27% of the total cases over 3 months. The graph of cases outside China looks like a hockey stick.

(That moment when you feel bad for the senior citizens, then realize you are one!)


edit: this site continually updates its totals. Since posting this a little while ago the new total has risen to 196,639... day still not over. The one-day increase is now 28% of the previous 3 month total
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 05:15 PM
The news is coming so fast from so many sources it's hard to keep up.

Here's an interesting one about grocery stores in the North Eastern part of the US. Several have implemented senior hours meaning the first hour or so of opening is reserved for seniors only. They get first crack at all the items that were just restocked that night. It's early, like 6 am but hey, I think that's a great idea and I can get my butt out of bed for that right now!

Let hope that gets implemented everywhere.

Bob
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/17/20 05:27 PM
I was in the store yesterday. The only thing in the frozen section was 2 bags of brussel sprouts.

...Deb
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 06:10 AM
I killed one of my chickens yesterday. I hate killing my animals. I wonder what the kids would think if they had to be there.

The good part was the chicken and rice and biscuits . It tasted just like just like 1956.

We walked over to my neighbors house and talked from behind the glass and left some chicken on the door step. She is in her eighty. Her husband died a few months back and life is not very good. She has plenty of money but money won't buy you happiness.

There are no cases of the virus in the Florida Keys. I want to go fishing pretty soon.
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 06:35 AM
In the Retirement Village I live in I’m president of the lawn bowls club. Yesterday I had to make the decision to suspend formal lawn bowls for an undefined time. I have also had to point out to a number of elderly people that social interaction is probably not a good idea. Some of the elderly folk really struggle with some restrictions they are being asked to support.

The other issue is how long will all this last. Our Prime Minister said this is a long haul and expect six months at least.

This will give me a heap of time on my computer doing stuff.

I was to go to Europe at the end of June for a river cruise. Looks like that is shot, I just hope I can recover some of the monies I spent on it. Then I can buy another AmpleSound Guitar (the Martin looks to be coming).

Anyway enough from me.
Tony
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 05:24 PM
Well, they banned bands here because they "draw crowds" and all my gigs except one private party have been canceled from now to the beginning of June. I suspect that one last gig will be canceled as well.

So I'm unemployed for the next few months. If the virus isn't contained by June, I'll be out of work even longer.

Things could be worse, Leilani and I have no symptoms so are probably OK, and with no money we have no where to go wink

Being self-employed, we do have some reserve in savings, but not knowing how long this will last, we are tightening our belts.

And we're hard at work making new style 'disks' and fake 'disks' for Band-in-a-Box.

Notes
Posted By: jazzsax Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 07:44 PM
Bob, here in San Jose several grocery stores have reserved 9:00 to 10:00 a.m. for seniors.
Something that I hadn’t considered was that seniors were fearing the thought of shopping
because of the large crowds.
I have been in self-quarantine recovering from surgery since Jan.7 and it looks like
I now have a much longer way to go. Music in general and BIAB in particular has been
a blessing in my recovery.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 08:03 PM
Ya got me!
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 08:42 PM
Bob,

You just can't pass up a chance to get in your political shots, even if they come nowhere close to resembling the subject.

So once again a very sincere post from Lambada on a very serious subject turns into shots at the POTUS, wow.

Best of Luck to ya,
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/18/20 10:15 PM
Danny,

Criticizing a sitting president for their handling of a national emergency isn't necessarily political. It's simply freedom of speech.

My comments would have been the same regardless of who was POTUS if they had spent weeks or even months denying what is happening and ignoring advice from every health official.

Best of luck to you too.
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 02:45 AM
Hi All again. It looks like Hong Kong will go the same way in the end. We're getting hit now by a second wave (probably the first real one) of people returning to Hong Kong or escaping to Hong Kong where quarantine is still voluntary, although that could change today. I think a lot of people let their guard down here, thinking it was a China problem and that we were over the worst of it. I fear not. I see S Korea, who have done an amazing job of testing I think due to them having a pandemic test run a couple of weeks prior to the real outbreak, are now facing new clusters. Latest Chinese research is showing that people with Type A blood are more at risk and in Italy, the overwhelming majority of those who are dying are over 80 with pre-existing health issues. There's also research in the US saying that the young are at risk too. Certainly a lot of young people here catching it according to the stats. Everyone seems to agree that social distancing is the way to go, but its not easy, especially when you're at home all the time with extra time on your hands and we're talking weeks. I've lost track now, but I don't think they'll be school for months.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 06:26 AM
I think everyone realizes that the response to the pandemic was badly botched at the Federal level but rubbing salt in the partisan wound isn’t necessary. The folks who argued that this was a hoax will be dining on crow for years to come.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 10:59 AM
Come on folks, in the U.S.A. "Democratic" Republic, it's OK to criticize the government for botching things up, after all they are supposed to protect us from this.

Firing the entire NSC's Expert Pandemic team before the storm to give the rich a bigger tax cut was just stupid, just as calling it a hoax and blaming it on others was.

If it was OK to criticize Obama for the stupid things he did, so it should be OK to criticize the present administration; as long as the criticisms are appropriate to the thread, fair, and not just cheap shots and name calling.

We all make stupid mistakes, and if we go on ignoring the mistakes of others, we will have no idea how to correct them. You won't learn from your mistakes by refusing to acknowledge them.

Hard times are ahead, it will get worse before it gets better. By noting what is being done wrong and what is being done right, perhaps we can learn something for the next time. And there will be a next time.

Musicians, bartenders, wait staff, housekeepers, porters, DJs, Karaoke hosts, taxi/uber drivers, fishing boat captains/crew, museum workers, dancers, actors, theme park employees, souvenir shops, tourist attraction owners/employees, restaurant owners, bar owners, and a lot of other people will be without income for a long time to come. And here in Tourist Friendly South Florida there are a lot of people with no income now. They have a right to be angry at the guy who cut health services.

Remember Harry Truman's line, "The buck stops here." The captain of the ship is always responsible.

I'm of the age and gender that is most vulnerable to losing my life, I've already lost most of my income, so I too have a right.

I've been very careful to keep this apolitical, and I think the criticisms so far have been fair.

They are duly noted, no sense repeating them again and again. If they are brought up, take them with a grain of salt.

There will be more mistakes made before this is over, let's learn from them. And let's do this together.

Peace,
Bob
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 12:43 PM
Well, in a couple of weeks the big Mai Mai start showing up about forty miles offshore from my house in the Keys. So not to much more of staying at home.

The good new is fuel for the boat has dropped by $1.50 A GAL. Only around $500 to fill the tank.

No Corona virus in the middle of the ocean. No toilet paper required, plenty of salt water to wash your butt and cool off in!!

Eva took a peak at the supermarket today and come home empty. She said we got more stuff than they do!!
Posted By: Jim Fogle Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 01:23 PM
I'm set! laugh

Attached picture Charmin.png
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 01:30 PM
I went to Walmart yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks and was only able to get less than half of what was on my list. Most of the employees were either trying to restock the shelves or were cleaning and disinfecting the shelves.

One of the items on my list was 2 lbs. of butter. When I got to the shelf, they only had 2 lbs. of butter in the whole section. Rather than getting both of them, I only took one.

A few minutes later a little old lady who was previously behind me passed by and I saw the other pound of butter in her shopping cart. A simple thing like that made me feel good about not being selfish and taking both.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 01:55 PM
Bob,

I followed that old lady home and watched her go into her basement, unlock a 300' cubic walkin freezer and stack that 1lb of butter on the 150lbs she purchased within the last two days.

Just kidding of course . . . Have a great day!

Later,
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 03:07 PM
After spending the morning scanning the news articles about the various stimulus packages being proposed and the response steps being taken in relation to Covid 19, it made me think of an old quote:

Winston Churchill — ‘You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.’

LOL
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/19/20 05:30 PM
Chloroquine, an old malaria drug, may help treat novel coronavirus, doctors say

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/chloroquine-old-malaria-drug-may-help-treat-novel-022210702.html

From ABC News
Posted By: Charlie Fogle Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/20/20 05:39 PM
A known way to kill bacteria, germs, fungus, mold and virus's (including Covid 19) is UV light.

A CPAP Sanitizer is a source for UV light that can be used to disinfect small household items—such as toothbrush, hearing aid, dentures or glasses, cell phones, cordless phones,computer mouse, Iphone, Ipod or any household item that will fit into the cleaning chamber.

They are somewhat expensive but readily available.
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/20/20 07:40 PM
OMG (in general)

Would the moderators please pull this thread - it is not music related (never really was) and it's now mainly political so.....

Larry

Posted By: beatmaster Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/20/20 07:49 PM
OMG (in general)

Would the moderators please pull this thread - it is not music related (never really was) and it's now mainly political so.....Larry




Think you will find it is in the OFF TOPIC category.

I'm not very active on the forum for a while now due to commitments, although I do pop on for this and other topics.

It keeps it real to hear from others from all over the globe who we know and trust ,instead of the media who we ….well I will rest my case There !.

Keep the posts coming.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/20/20 10:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl
OMG (in general)

Would the moderators please pull this thread - it is not music related (never really was) and it's now mainly political so.....

Larry


Reading this thread is not mandatory! smile
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 12:40 AM
Also, even even though I was sorely tempted to shoot down with devastating wit and panache certain political comments I decided not to so as not to make them look bad. Hahaha, yeah right.

I think this thread is very useful and it could help others so keep it up.

Bob
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 01:41 AM
To lighten up this topic....
Apparently, if the Olympic Games go ahead, they're going to introduce a new sport.

The Great Toilet Paper Race …… and apparently the Aussies are tipped to get the Gold.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 03:59 AM
Has the toilet paper been lab tested?



Do you remember this ad Keith?
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 04:43 AM
Hee hee, yes I do Noel. And also the ad with the little kid from Hey Dad....... "Hurry Up !!!!"
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 09:41 AM
priceless
Posted By: beatmaster Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 09:53 AM
To the youth of today
I stare out through the window, as isolation begins to bite .
It’s not a normal Friday as the virus has gave me fright .
There’s no one down the bingo or at the pub tonight
A group of youths have gathered they don’t seem to care at all .
They are waiting on a cargo so they can have a ball.
I remember those nights well and the mess that I,d get in .
As I sat up in the park swigging from my tin .
Could not wait for Friday to get my little thrill, but there was not a COVID virus waiting for the KILL
Sometimes a team with bricks and cans and maybe knives as well
But when you seen them coming you could always run like hell
From this virus you cannot run if you hang about in teams
If any of you catch it , it could kill off all your dreams
So listen to what their saying ,I know your not all a bad crew
Just doing all the things that many teenagers do
Listen to what their saying , keep your distance the noo
There is a killer lurking out there , that none of you can see
It’s waiting for a victim , I am hoping it’s not me
It may feel just like a hangover to any one of you
But if you take it home with you or any of your crew
It could kill your granny and even your mum and dad too
Listen to what I’m saying ,Take heed of what I say and when this is all over you can party another day
Take care everyone
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 10:19 AM
Perhaps many of you have a million friends to talk to when something comes along that may end your life. Perhaps some of you only feel comfortable to express ideas here. Why would anyone try to prevent what little comfort that could be gained by ending this discussion. These discussions and others like them sometime produce music. Some have no ability to hear it.

The lamppost stands with folded arms
Its iron claws attached
To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail
Though it shadows metal badge
All and all can only fall
With a crashing but meaningless blow
No sound ever comes from the Gates of Eden
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 04:05 PM
This thread actually is music related when you look at how many thousands of musicians have been put out of a job by the virus.

Notes has told us about how its affected him and many others. Most of the artists I follow are small independent folks who travel constantly in order to make a living. They've all posted that shows and festivals are cancelled indefinitely.

It's too bad that we didn't know about this oncoming pandemic back in January so there could have been a coordinated response by the government and health officials.

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-intelligence-warned-trump-of-pandemic-in-january-2020-3
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 06:47 PM
I think it is important to be able to discuss our feelings even though the topic is somewhat controversial at times. In my opinion this virus has the ability to bring a whole lot of people together (by this I mean caring for each other whilst maintaining a social distance).

Here in Australia they had to close beaches because there were so many people gathering on beaches. We as a community need to understand the seriousness of this issue. I suspended some activities I am responsible for in the Village where I live. Some folk thought it over the top now the Government are pushing the same thing.

When it comes to politics. We have been fairly lucky in Oz at least the two sides of politics appear to be on roughly the same page and therefore things are getting done as much as they can. But, our infection rate is increasing at a scary rate.

Anyway that is my opinion. KEEP WELL ALL.

Tony
Posted By: Will Josef Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I hope that folks around the world who take a cavalier attitude toward this realize that even if they are not in a high risk category they can be responsible for passing it on to a friend, family member or stranger who is at serious risk.

My wife and friends will tell you that I joke all the time about nearly everything but I have to admit that I can conjure up no humor regarding this situation.

Be well,

Bud


This post is so much on the point... it is the biggest problem we have in Europe right now.. people (especially young men) having disrespect for rules about social distancing.

And to the guy who are using South Korea as an example... please inform yourself better before writing... most of the initial cases in South Korea was in a religious sect with a huge following from young people, so you cannot use it as an example of how the virus will behave in other countries.

Will
Posted By: beatmaster Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/21/20 08:39 PM
The good new is fuel for the boat has dropped by $1.50 A GAL. Only around $500 to fill the tank.

No Corona virus in the middle of the ocean. No toilet paper required, plenty of salt water to wash your butt and cool off in!!

Eva took a peak at the supermarket today and come home empty. She said we got more stuff than they do!!


That is class so funny and … always look on the bright side of life, stuff. you made me more than smile
Posted By: Guitarhacker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 11:01 AM
on second though.... nahhhh I ain't jumping into this
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 11:23 AM
They closed the beaches in many neighboring counties, the parks are closed and the restaurants are take-out only.

The bright spot however is according to an article in our local paper (s USA Today affiliate):

Quote:
... But scientists point with further hope to other studies the prove heat and humidity puts a damper on the spread of influenza viruses.

Low humidity, to the contrary, increases spread of those viruses. An animal study of influenza last year by Yale researchers found that low humidity obstructs immune response by preventing the tiny hair-like structures, or cilia, in airways cells from removing viruses and mucus. It also limited those cells' repair functions. Dry air also hampered the ability of infected cells to trigger the immune system to attack. ...


It's in the mid 80s with some very low 90s coming. Summer has hit South Florida.

And the fact that your immune system is crippled by dry weather, it's another good reason to ditch your Air Conditioner.

The fact that I don't live with AC (by choice) might be the reason why I catch a mild cold every 15 years or so and it usually lasts 2 days. I can't remember the last time I got the flu or sick for any other reason. I'd guess early 1980s.

Since we are unemployed from our main profession, Leilani and I are spending our isolation time making new aftermarket products for Band-in-a-Box. So at least we aren't bored wink

Notes
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 12:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl
OMG (in general)

Would the moderators please pull this thread - it is not music related (never really was) and it's now mainly political so.....

Larry



Larry,

I respectfully disagree. Music has tremendous curative powers beyond scientific explanation while exercising 100% of the brain. It provides at least temporary relief from the troubling world situation.

My vote is: keep the mutual encouragement going as long as possible. I see friendships being strengthened rather than weakened by this world crisis.

People are resilient and quite malleable - they may need to be beaten into shape/submission occasionally.
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 12:31 PM
Here...we can make this music related AND Band-In-A-Box related...

Silver lining.

Some advice.

How very relevant...

Let's Stay In - (A COVID-19 Song)


smile

(yes, unabashed self-promotion...I know....)
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 02:58 PM
Very well done Floyd! If you haven't already posted this one to Facebook, then you definitely should.
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/22/20 04:26 PM
FJ, this sends a great and important message.

Given the world's current situation, I would never call it "unabashed self-promotion"
Needs work!

I hate bad news as much as you or anyone else does. The problem is, at the moment, the only news that is actually true is bad news.

Hiding our heads in the sand and pretending everything is okay doesn't work.

People taking steps to at least slow it down helps, if only a little.
Hey Bob,
Everyone one this site knows your political position. Sure you would say it needs work, but I think it's spot on and I get to define my position and my songs regardless. You can believe the bad news if you want to, it's your right and it's my right to my "free speech" as you often advocate.

I did not say it was not serious, I said we need to do this for all flu's as we should have for the past ones that the media didn't even tell anyone about and the upcoming ones in the future, not infect others, stay home if you're sick and we should all be cognizant.

I just don't believe it's the end of humanity and that most of us are gonna die. Many of us could do with a lot less news mania. We are mature common sense adults and know what to do without being told very few minutes to "wash our hands". Duh!
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Is Anyone As Tired on the News As I Am? Everyday it's the end of the world. I've started watching "Sponge Bob". Anyway, I wrote these lyrics which I'm hearing as a Reggae Song, if anyone wants to do it just message me. Otherwise, maybe I'll do it later.

There's so much disinformation here. frown

Quote:
Hey, we all know what to do
They preach like we just turned two
Why not be cognizant of all flu’s

H1N1 is an influenza, but SARS and the Coronavirus are not.

As for "we know what to do", here's a message that you might want to take to heart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=o_cImRzKXOs&feature=emb_logo

Quote:
SSARS H1N1 had more deaths too

This isn't accurate. As of February 10, 2020, the total number of deaths caused by the Covid-19 exceed that of the SARS.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20774/coronavirus-sars-deaths-and-cases-compared/

It's true that H1N1 deaths currently surpass those of COVID-10. With an intense global response, we might be fortunate and keep the number of fatalities under that of H1N1.

Dr. Lutz said it's too early to tell if COVID-19's numbers will surpass those of the H1N1 pandemic, but that because of a more intense global response, hopefully those numbers won't get as high as they did during the H1N1 pandemic, even with COVID-19's higher fatality rate.

https://www.khq.com/coronavirus/we-re-not-overreacting-how-covid--compares-to-past/article_2236605e-68c6-11ea-8121-934e40ceda93.html

Quote:
For their Pres they were quiet as mice
But this one they’re anything but nice

It is not true that the nationwide panic level was “totally chill” during the H1N1 pandemic of 2009-2010. As reported by Reuters during the early days of the swine flu outbreak, swine flu chatter spread swiftly through blogs and social network sites like Twitter and Facebook while U.S. cable news networks’ saturation coverage of the outbreak gave way to a major political story (here). An academic paper that analyzed the hysteria presented by the media at the time says “media attention was immense.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factc...a-idUSKBN2172HT

Quote:
Every day two weeks it’s doomsday
But we’re all dying in twelve years anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgPZtTeEG5k

Quote:
They even wanna’ close the border
Enemy of the People

The POTUS has already declared both the north and south borders to be closed:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/03/19/u-s-mexico-officials-look-ban-non-essential-travel-across-border/2874497001/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/18/us-canada-border-closed-non-essential-traffic

Quote:
Some youngun’s don’t give a fu$k
Cause reporters cry wolf too much


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, joined CNN's Brianna Keilar to discuss efforts to combat the coronavirus.

"People sometimes think that you're overreacting," he said. "I like it when people are thinking I'm overreacting because that means we're doing it just right."


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/03/15/dr_fauci_on_coronavirus_if_people_think_were_overreacting_that_means_were_doing_it_right.html
Dcuny,
Appreciate your data and statistics. You have no way of knowing how accurate the statistics you are relying on are? They did not do a lot of testing back then as you well know how much trouble they are having now with testing, only hospital cases. Many people had SSARS and H1N1 and did not get tested or documented. I don't believe statistics anymore as they are only as good and as accurate as the input and have proved in the last two elections to be totally inaccurate. In my song I'm just saying the press did not hype up the panic back then with either of these two flu's and small businesses did not shut down, nor did people quarantine. This is a fact.

However, songs are just songs and they are specifically that person's individual reflection on what's happening at the time according to that person's take on it. We all see the world in different ways. You could argue with many songs of the past as to how accurate or not or was it the artist's interpretation of what was happening.

Does a song have to be politically correct or statistically accurate? I hope not because all creativity is out the window and we're then living in a communist environment which dictates that all our creativity has to comply with what the state tells us we can or cannot say.

I am not writing a historical documentary, even different news channels state different statistics from day to day and medical doctors disagree with each other as to how serious this is.

This is a song, it's my interpretation and my right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It's not meant to challenge you or anyone else's take on the world, but neither is it anyone else's right to try to define what I should write, think or feel. You don't have to like it and you don't have to agree.
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Appreciate your data and statistics. You have no way of knowing how accurate the statistics you are relying on is?

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be suspecting the number of reported deaths from SARS and H1N1 as inaccurate?

Based on what? Because you feel that it's not right?

Quote:
In my song I'm just saying the press did not hype up the panic back then with either of these two flu's and small businesses did not shut down, nor did people quarantine. This is a fact.

No, that's not entirely factual.

Fact: SARS is not a strain of the influenza, so it's not a flu.

Fact: The press did "hype up" H1N1. I included a link to support that statement, as well as paragraph from the article, in case you didn't feel like clicking the link.

It's true that business in the United States didn't shut down, and people - for the most part - didn't quarantine.

You seems to be implying that because we didn't act the same with H1N1, the reason is politically motivated reasons, or perhaps because of media hype.

If you had checked out this link I provided, you'd have gotten an explanation of how H1N1 differs from Coronavirus.

Since you seem adverse to clicking links, I'll provide a summary.

The Coronavirus is a "novel" virus, meaning that it's "new", and there's no existing immunity. In contrast, H1N1 is a strain of influenza, and wasn't completely "novel", so there was some level of existing immunity in the community - especially among older people.

H1N1 has a shorter incubation period than the Coronavirus, with symptoms showing up in one to four days after contracting the virus. Symptoms for the Coronavirus may not appear at all, or take up to 14 days to appear.

The mortality rate for H1N1 is estimated to be around 0.02%. For the Coronavirus, that number is in flux, initially reported at 2.3%, but now estimated to be perhaps at 1%. That's still a larger than H1N1 by a factor of over 100.

H1N1 was also less contagious than Coronavirus.

All these factors together indicate that the response to the Coronavirus needed to be different than the response to H1N1.

But if you still feel that none of those facts provides adequate justification for treating Coronavirus differently from H1N1, you could look to how the Coronavirus is effecting countries like Italy. I provided several links on that, as well.

So you don't have to click the links, here's the summary: "We underestimated this. You don't have to do the same."

Quote:
However, songs are just songs and they are specifically that person's individual reflection on what's happening at the time according to that person's take on it.

Statements of facts in songs are like any other sort of statements of facts.

In this case, some are inaccurate.

Quote:
Does a song have to be politically correct or statistically accurate?

If a song states something as if it were factual, then it should be accurate.

Quote:
I hope not because all creativity is out the window and we're then living in a communist environment that it all has to comply with what the state tells us we can or cannot say.

No one's First Amendment right has been abridged.

You've chosen to exercise that right by writing inaccurate information.

I've chosen to exercise that same right by pointing out where you are factually inaccurate.

Irony Alert: We're writing this on a commercial message board of a Canadian company. And - spoiler alert - our speech on this forum is censored.

Quote:
I am not writing a historical documentary, even different news channels state different statistics from day to day and medical doctors disagreeing with each other as to how serious this is.

Medical doctors disagreeing with how "serious" something is means they're discussing statistical likelihoods of something happening in the future.

The number of people who have died from H1N1, SARS and COVID-19 aren't seriously in disagreement, other than perhaps some level of undercounting.

Quote:
This is a song, it's my interpretation and my right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

Yes, you certainly have the right to be wrong, and you're fully exercising that right.
Hey Dcuny,
My next song is gonna be called "If You're Right, Then I Wanna Be Wrong". Signing off from you forever.
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
I just don't believe it's the end of humanity and that most of us are gonna die.

Your hype is much worse than the media hype you complain about. No one said "it's the end of humanity and that most of us are gonna die". Literally no one ever said that.

And as others pointed out, your "facts" are wrong. You were presented with links to facts and you responded with what you believe. Your beliefs will not save you from dying when our already strained healthcare system is overwhelmed and you need a life-saving ventilator!

This is quite serious and anyone spreading such disinformation should be called out.
Did someone say hyperbole
David,

Thank you for all those links. I found the graphs and the articles eye-opening. I sincerely appreciate your posting them.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 02:49 AM
I just noticed the name on the thread got changed from "Covid 19 Virus (Corona)" to
"Covid 19 Virus (Corona) Since This is Related, My Take" on post #587129.

I thought I'd been redirected when I saw the name change in the thread. I'd never noticed you could rename it internally while posting.

So I changed it back to the OP's original name, "Covid 19 Virus (Corona)".
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 03:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl
Did someone say hyperbole


"Hyperbole" is better used when it's not about a current event that requires serious attention to actual details and facts.

i.e., saying that "everyone was at the party last night" is okay because people realize that "everyone" wasn't at the party. There were billions of people who weren't there.

Taking an international health crisis where the number of infected and dead are increasing by the minute and trivializing it with lies and misinformation is not only a bad idea, it's terribly irresponsible.
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 06:58 AM
Hey, I had H1N1 and it was not hyped in any fashion.

3.5 weeks off work then I had to get 2 "all clear" diagnosis before I could go back to work.

Nasty thing. Please do not say or suggest it was hyped. You were just blessed if you knew no one who had it.

...Deb
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 09:37 AM
Last year my Father-in-Law caught pneumonia and I had to take him to A&E in Hong Kong. As my dependent, he has a HK ID card. After triage and a 6-8 hour wait he was taken into infectious diseases unit for possible H1N1 and then 2 weeks in intensive care. Total cost for over 4 weeks in hospital about $400 US. Also a friend's wife is in isolation after she came into contact with a Covid-19 customer in her hairdressing salon.
Here's her on-going blog
https://www.self-employedmummy.com/post/my-fear-of-the-unknown-coronavirus-day-1-in-quarantine?fbclid=IwAR2jIiX_Bzio0rj8xmcIEUgDir3GHk4wepEtMulLLGXjLec0RlUyaq0ezWA

This is not for the light of heart but was enough to get me to demand my family go into isolation now we're being hit with round two of the virus here in Hong Kong.

A Medical Worker Describes Terrifying Lung Failure From COVID-19 — Even in His Young Patients
“It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy [*****], this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube.”
by Lizzie Presser March 21, 5 a.m. EDT

As of Friday, Louisiana was reporting 479 confirmed cases of COVID-19, one of the highest numbers in the country. Ten people had died. The majority of cases are in New Orleans, which now has one confirmed case for every 1,000 residents. New Orleans had held Mardi Gras celebrations just two weeks before its first patient, with more than a million revelers on its streets.

I spoke to a respiratory therapist there, whose job is to ensure that patients are breathing well. He works in a medium-sized city hospital’s intensive care unit. (We are withholding his name and employer, as he fears retaliation.) Before the virus came to New Orleans, his days were pretty relaxed, nebulizing patients with asthma, adjusting oxygen tubes that run through the nose or, in the most severe cases, setting up and managing ventilators. His patients were usually older, with chronic health conditions and bad lungs.

Since last week, he’s been running ventilators for the sickest COVID-19 patients. Many are relatively young, in their 40s and 50s, and have minimal, if any, preexisting conditions in their charts. He is overwhelmed, stunned by the manifestation of the infection, both its speed and intensity. The ICU where he works has essentially become a coronavirus unit. He estimates that his hospital has admitted dozens of confirmed or presumptive coronavirus patients. About a third have ended up on ventilators.

His hospital had not prepared for this volume before the virus first appeared. One physician had tried to raise alarms, asking about negative pressure rooms and ventilators. Most staff concluded that he was overreacting. “They thought the media was overhyping it,” the respiratory therapist told me. “In retrospect, he was right to be concerned.”

He spoke to me by phone on Thursday about why, exactly, he has been so alarmed. His account has been condensed and edited for clarity.

“Reading about it in the news, I knew it was going to be bad, but we deal with the flu every year so I was thinking: Well, it’s probably not that much worse than the flu. But seeing patients with COVID-19 completely changed my perspective, and it’s a lot more frightening.”

This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people.

“I have patients in their early 40s and, yeah, I was kind of shocked. I’m seeing people who look relatively healthy with a minimal health history, and they are completely wiped out, like they’ve been hit by a truck. This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people. Patients will be on minimal support, on a little bit of oxygen, and then all of a sudden, they go into complete respiratory arrest, shut down and can’t breathe at all.”

They suddenly become unresponsive or go into respiratory failure.

“We have an observation unit in the hospital, and we have been admitting patients that had tested positive or are presumptive positive — these are patients that had been in contact with people who were positive. We go and check vitals on patients every four hours, and some are on a continuous cardiac monitor, so we see that their heart rate has a sudden increase or decrease, or someone goes in and sees that the patient is struggling to breathe or is unresponsive. That seems to be what happens to a lot of these patients: They suddenly become unresponsive or go into respiratory failure.”

The lung is filled with so much fluid, displacing where the air would normally be. “It’s called acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS. That means the lungs are filled with fluid. And it’s notable for the way the X-ray looks: The entire lung is basically whited out from fluid. Patients with ARDS are extremely difficult to oxygenate. It has a really high mortality rate, about 40%. The way to manage it is to put a patient on a ventilator. The additional pressure helps the oxygen go into the bloodstream.

“Normally, ARDS is something that happens over time as the lungs get more and more inflamed. But with this virus, it seems like it happens overnight. When you’re healthy, your lung is made up of little balloons. Like a tree is made out of a bunch of little leaves, the lung is made of little air sacs that are called the alveoli. When you breathe in, all of those little air sacs inflate, and they have capillaries in the walls, little blood vessels. The oxygen gets from the air in the lung into the blood so it can be carried around the body.

“Typically with ARDS, the lungs become inflamed. It’s like inflammation anywhere: If you have a burn on your arm, the skin around it turns red from additional blood flow. The body is sending it additional nutrients to heal. The problem is, when that happens in your lungs, fluid and extra blood starts going to the lungs. Viruses can injure cells in the walls of the alveoli, so the fluid leaks into the alveoli. A telltale sign of ARDS in an X-ray is what’s called ‘ground glass opacity,’ like an old-fashioned ground glass privacy window in a shower. And lungs look that way because fluid is white on an X-ray, so the lung looks like white ground glass, or sometimes pure white, because the lung is filled with so much fluid, displacing where the air would normally be.”

This severity ... is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience ... or people who inhale caustic gas.

“With our coronavirus patients, once they’re on ventilators, most need about the highest settings that we can do. About 90% oxygen, and 16 of PEEP, positive end-expiratory pressure, which keeps the lung inflated. This is nearly as high as I’ve ever seen. The level we’re at means we are running out of options.

“In my experience, this severity of ARDS is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience — they have a bunch of dirty water in their lungs — or people who inhale caustic gas. Especially for it to have such an acute onset like that. I’ve never seen a microorganism or an infectious process cause such acute damage to the lungs so rapidly. That was what really shocked me.”

You’ll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you ...

“It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy [*****], this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube and out of his mouth. The ventilator should have been doing the work of breathing but he was still gasping for air, moving his mouth, moving his body, struggling. We had to restrain him. With all the coronavirus patients, we’ve had to restrain them. They really hyperventilate, really struggle to breathe. When you’re in that mindstate of struggling to breathe and delirious with fever, you don’t know when someone is trying to help you, so you’ll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you, but you are drowning.

“When someone has an infection, I’m used to seeing the normal colors you’d associate with it: greens and yellows. The coronavirus patients with ARDS have been having a lot of secretions that are actually pink because they’re filled with blood cells that are leaking into their airways. They are essentially drowning in their own blood and fluids because their lungs are so full. So we’re constantly having to suction out the secretions every time we go into their rooms.”
I do not want to catch this.

“Before this, we were all joking. It’s grim humor. If you are exposed to the virus and test positive and go on quarantine, you get paid. We were all joking: I want to get the coronavirus because then I get a paid vacation from work. And once I saw these patients with it, I was like, Holy [*****], I do not want to catch this and I don’t want anyone I know to catch this.
About This Story

The medical details in this story were vetted by an infectious disease doctor, a cardiologist and an internist at three different hospitals. All of the information about ARDS, the condition that the respiratory therapist describes, was fact-checked against peer-reviewed articles and UpToDate, a resource for physicians to check current standards in care, clinical features, and expected complications and outcomes.
“I worked a long stretch of days last week, and I watched it go from this novelty to a serious issue. We had one or two patients at our hospital, and then five to 10 patients, and then 20 patients. Every day, the intensity kept ratcheting up. More patients, and the patients themselves are starting to get sicker and sicker. When it first started, we all had tons of equipment, tons of supplies, and as we started getting more patients, we started to run out. They had to ration supplies. At first we were trying to use one mask per patient. Then it was just: You get one mask for positive patients, another mask for everyone else. And now it’s just: You get one mask.

“I work 12-hour shifts. Right now, we are running about four times the number of ventilators than we normally have going. We have such a large volume of patients, but it’s really hard to find enough people to fill all the shifts. The caregiver-to-patient ratio has gone down, and you can’t spend as much time with each patient, you can’t adjust the vent settings as aggressively because you’re not going into the room as often. And we’re also trying to avoid going into the room as much as possible to reduce infection risk of staff and to conserve personal protective equipment.”

Even if you survive ... it can also do long-lasting damage.

“But we are trying to wean down the settings on the ventilator as much as possible, because you don’t want someone to be on the ventilator longer than they need to be. Your risk of mortality increases every day that you spend on a ventilator. The high pressures from high vent settings is pushing air into the lung and can overinflate those little balloons. They can pop. It can destroy the alveoli. Even if you survive ARDS, although some damage can heal, it can also do long-lasting damage to the lungs. They can get filled up with scar tissue. ARDS can lead to cognitive decline. Some people’s muscles waste away, and it takes them a long time to recover once they come off the ventilator.

“There is a very real possibility that we might run out of ICU beds and at that point I don’t know what happens if patients get sick and need to be intubated and put on a ventilator. Is that person going to die because we don’t have the equipment to keep them alive? What if it goes on for months and dozens of people die because we don’t have the ventilators?

“Hopefully we don’t get there, but if you only have one ventilator, and you have two patients, you’re going to have to go with the one who has a higher likelihood of surviving. And I’m afraid we’ll get to that point. I’ve heard that’s happening in Italy.”
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 10:01 AM
Corona is an anagram of Racoon so to a dyslexic is it a Racoon Virus? laugh

(lame attempt to lighten up)

There is no way to predict how bad it is going to be. I suspect sooner or later most of us will be exposed to it. "Flattening the curve" by closing everything will allow the medical establishment to handle it better and thus save lives.

I read that in Italy anyone over 60 years old doesn't get a ventilator, because there aren't enough to go around.

That's a good reason to self-quarantine and flatten that curve here in the US, Canada, and elsewhere.

We're economically self-quarantined, bands are banned, restaurants are closed, beaches are closed, malls are closed, and all our gigs are cancelled.

But we're safe and showing no symptoms, so I'd rather be broke than sick.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 10:39 AM
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams


Be well!

Bud
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 11:20 AM
Bob,

I'm normally optometrist, but I have so much stacked against me; age (79); general health; prior major health issues (stroke); ad infinitum so I really don't expect my wife nor myself to make it through this crisis.

Also, I see countless violations of safe health practices that none of we patients will survive and the other homes are even worse. The local hospital and the VA no longer recommend this home and that's a death-blow. Mysteriously, State Health Inspectors are blind to the violations. Are they being bribed? I am helpless to dig deeper for fear of retaliation.

My kids have become involved so my level care is about to improve soon. My youngest son calls daily to check on my quality of care.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 11:56 AM
Don,

I'm so glad that people are watching out for you. I saw a marked improvement in my mothers care in the nursing home when they realized there were 3 children who were in there several times a week making sure she was getting proper care.

Take care my friend. I wish the best for you, Joanne and Don Jr.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 12:01 PM
I just saw an article headline where it said "the surgeon general gives grim warning".

It then dawned on me that under the current administration, when I see a statement by the Surgeon General, the Attorney General, the Secretary of State, or any other person in the Executive branch of government, that I have have NO confidence in what I'm hearing because they are all terrified of Trump and will only say whats been pre approved by him.

That is a sad position for our country to be in. Especially in a time of crisis. I know there will be accusations of "politics" from Trump supporters but I'm going to call bullsh*t on that in advance.

I've called out Obama, "Dubya" Bush, Clinton, daddy Bush, Reagan and every other president that's been in office when I thought they were in the wrong.

I am sick of people people acting as if its treason to call out an incompetent fool, a con man and a liar just because he managed to get elected.

So, should I click on the link with a message from the Surgeon General? Or is it just going to be a message from Trump with someone else's face and voice?

Dr. Anthony Fauci is the only one I've seen willing to contradict the president and speak the truth. It's too bad we don't elect people like him. The only problem is, people like him don't seek power.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 12:02 PM
Don, I’m not a praying man, but you have my best wishes and a promise to worry along with you.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 12:24 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
I just saw an article headline where it said "the surgeon general gives grim warning". I have have NO confidence in what I'm hearing .


A couple of other forums that I’m involved in are populated by members of the Medical and Public Health communities. One sub forum which is made up of some friends of mine from the Philadelphia area had a nurse who asked a question about some rumored delivery of PPEs in a given amount by today. She said that the President had said they would be delivered and wanted to know if it was true.

The truly sad thing about even having to ask a question like that in a time of crisis, is that if the POTUS says something, you should be able to take it to the bank. We have a White House thot has so often used “alternative facts” that now when he says things, or his representatives say things, you don’t know if what you are being told is the truth, or an alternative fact. That might be good practice for a political campaign but it doesn’t work for a country that supposedly is on a war time footing.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 06:09 PM
Fauci gets frank about Trump: ‘I can’t jump in front of the microphone and push him down’

(copy and paste the link to read)

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Fauci+Trump&filters=tnTID%3a%225CD93417-2322-4949-BE45-EA884A180008%22+tnVersion%3a%223449613%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%226%22+tnOrder%3a%224f52b294-a955-4300-9c55-459c0e3d6637%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 06:32 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Fauci gets frank about Trump: ‘I can’t jump in front of the microphone and push him down’

(copy and paste the link to read)

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Fauci+Trump&filters=tnTID%3a%225CD93417-2322-4949-BE45-EA884A180008%22+tnVersion%3a%223449613%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%226%22+tnOrder%3a%224f52b294-a955-4300-9c55-459c0e3d6637%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0

We are so lucky that good people continue to stand next to trump and try to keep him honest. His cult ignores them of course but at least those of us who listen can get factual information.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 07:46 PM
From the NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/health/coronavirus-drugs-remdesivir.html
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 08:38 PM
Bob I know your busy contributing positively to the world condition but next time before you get on that high horse: please READ which post I was referencing (aka RTFQ) then you may get my sardonic use of the word “hyperbole.” Otherwise explain how is it irresponsible to reference JJJ’s post insinuating that maybe, when Belladonna needs a lifesaving ventilator, there might not be one for Belladonna? (Yes I realize JJJ was generalizing - but that generalized set includes Belladonna)

I'll leave this one at that
Larry
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 09:10 PM
Larry,

I'm not egocentric enough to believe I'm "contributing positively to the world condition" but I am trying to be a better person and part of that is speaking up when I do believe our country is under assault not only from people who mean to do it harm, but also by well meaning folks who are being deceived by an incredibly proficient con man.

If I misunderstood which post you were referring to, then I apologize for my mistake.

I was going to post the following by itself, but I guess this is as good a place as any to include it:

As a registered Republican and someone who loves our country dearly, I have a statement and a question for all of my Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian and Socialist friends.

We are now seeing the kind of nightmare that can happen when we elect a megalomaniacal reality TV host with no political experience at all when it comes to leading a diverse nation during a crisis.

Who would've thunk it?
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/23/20 09:31 PM
I’ll lighten the mood for a few seconds. I read this earlier (I made it family friendly):

“Your Grandparents were called to fight in world wars. You are asked to wash your hands and sit on the couch. Don’t screw this up.”


====

Back to not so light. Since this has become a “we are the on the moral high road and some of you are not” thread and I was so hurt after being admonished many posts back to drop this thread (you don’t believe I felt hurt that do you?)

Forum rules: #9 “All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.”

I'm still looking for the music related and/or CONSTRUCTIVE posts on this thread.

There is nothing constructive on this thread and hasn’t been for many pages. This thread has been reduced, primarily, to a barrage of, listings of, and statements of “the numbers get worse everyday” - That’s what a growth function does it shows increasing numbers, sorry math is math. No to mention lately how the administration sucks, can't be trusted, probably secretly caused this (I just made that one up to make some forum member feel good and to see how many idiots quote it), how "he" stole my free lollipop,...

There are posts with links about hospitals running low on gloves, and masks, and gowns, and beds,… and quotes from famous immunologists and epidemiologists and doctors, and 3rd world expert bureaucrats galore. Al of which we can Google ourselves so why put it here (yes, I'm I hypocrite I you'll notice I put my own links later - LOL).

Folks you truly want to do something “constructive” then offer up you house as mini aide station/hospital extension and move to a tent in your backyard. Frankly if we don’t get our collective heads out, and get back to work NOW, you might just be living there soon enough, think your grandparents circa 1930. Offer up your car, SUV, truck as an ambulance - you aren’t using it to go anywhere anyway. etc.

How is sitting at home and wringing your hands, patting each other on the back about how you care more than the next guy, or doing the old back handed "compliments" and down right frontal attacks on the president (frankly I don't give two turds about whether you trust him, like him, voted for him or not - show support you downright "upright" irresponsible people) is somehow being more “responsible” to or for the world.

FYI - I have zero intention of doing any of the above or anything even remotely like that for my fellow citizens. I did my 21 plus another 30 for them already, so the “kids” can carry it the rest of the way (or not – up to them).

A little background for our new viewers at home watching the “we must worry” or we are being irresponsibility WWW station:

I’m an old guy (Vietnam vet), so I am at least as old as most here and I’m in the CV-19 HIGH risk group. I have heart disease, Type II diabetes, I'm way overweight, I’m a former 4-pack a day smoker when I quite 10 years ago, had lots of respiratory problems as a kid even at that I started smoking about the age of 10 [yea I know you’d think I’d know better but… nope], plus all the run-of-the-mill old guy issues bad knees, bad back, neuroma's in both feet, neuropathy in both feet and legs, macula degeneration, a prostate the size of Texas, plus I’ve probably got a little plaque on the gray matter and scores of other issues but I don't dwell on any of it. All of that was to explain that I’m not outside the possibly affected CV-19 group, who knows I might even get CV-19 and die, crap happens: you're born - you die - that's cold but its FACT - (since we are so fact based here now).

Let us really get the hackles up, as a bonus feature my wife is Chinese, all of her relatives live in Taiwan and that aside SHE agrees: TRUMP IS RIGHT THIS IS A CHINA CAUSED EVENT they hid it for OVER a month while 5M (5,000,000) people departed for all points of the compass to pass it on to all you "administration" haters as well as the rest of the population.

BTW: Come here and call her a racist and she’ll kick you in your nether regions, hard and repeatedly - LOL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_in_November_2019_%E2%80%93_January_2020#17_November_2019

https://www.businessinsider.com/5-million-left-wuhan-before-coronavirus-quarantine-2020-1


Therefore, I think my views and thoughts on this topic are as valid as anyone else’s here ('m old and at risk and I DON'T stay home). I have just as much skin in CV-19 game as the average member of the U.S. population. Additionally, unlike most of the average U.S. population, at least I’m actual “scientist,” I don’t play one on TV or the interweb. I’m a mathematician, statistician, and operational researcher, with a “way back when” undergrad microbiology minor - so I think I can follow a simple exponential curve without fear, awe, panic, reverence, or other useless affectation.

Some look at an exponential curve and get all tingly inside and think OMG it will go to infinity (and beyond); therefore, the world is doomed: the curve DOES NOT and the world is not. There are always natural boundary conditions, growth limiting and reduction factors (e.g., treatment, cures, other human intervention) that keep most biological exp. curve's in check.

I predict we won’t even break 10M dead world wide. Yes, that’s a big number and cold when and heartless when stated so matter-of-factly, and I'm sorry I know the death of loved ones hurt but it is also part of life. Although, if right 10M would be barely half of the cardiovascular deaths world wide a year (~17.8M) but what do I know. Post me when we get to 10M + 1 to gloat about how wrong I was.

https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death

If you read to here – you must really be bored out of your skulls!

Larry
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 02:47 AM
Yeah, it is racist to call COVID-10 the Chinese virus. And very stupid too! Why would anyone with half a brain crap on the country that just might be able to help us medically and economically?

It is also stupid to tout unproven drugs as possible cures until proper testing has been done. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/03/23/man-dead-from-taking-chloroquine-after-trump-touts-drug-for-coronavirus/

As Bob has said repeatedly this is not a political issue and has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. This is about the extraordinary danger a reality TV star has put us in.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 09:56 AM
Originally Posted By: KeithS
<...snip...>

The truly sad thing about even having to ask a question like that in a time of crisis, is that if the POTUS says something, you should be able to take it to the bank. <...>

Remember, a person who either settled out of court or was convicted of fraud was elected POTUS. And you expect to believe anything he says?

So to be constructive, don't believe the present administration. Get your facts from the less political WHO instead.

Do self-isolate, keep a social distance, and take protective measures.

Despite our best efforts at this, the WHO predicts 70% of the world population will get this. The effort is to "flatten the curve" so that the hospitals have room for you and a ventilator if you need it. In Italy, the hospitals are so full that the rule is "anybody over 60 doesn't get a ventilator." That's a death sentence.

When there are so many dying that the doctor can't save them all, the doctor has to make a decision that almost no doctor wants to make; Who will live and who will die?

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 03:49 PM
You mean the same WHO that tweeted January 14th that China confirmed the virus is not transmissible by human to human contact? Trump also never said the virus is a hoax, if you think he did post the link.

Bob
Posted By: raymb1 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
You mean the same WHO that tweeted January 14th that China confirmed the virus is not transmissible by human to human contact? Trump also never said the virus is a hoax, if you think he did post the link.

Bob


Here's what he said: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 05:53 PM
Hi Larry,

You mentioned in your post above that your wife has relatives in Taiwan. I don't know if this news has made it to the USA but Taiwan is a COVID-19 success story with just 135 cases and two deaths as of March 20.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjqD_9ScTlA

Because of a nasty experience with SARS around 2003, Taiwan learnt from that experience and had measures and strategies in place when COVID-19 was first detected. These measures have proven to be powerful.

In my view, Taiwan should have a place at the World Health Organisation as this country's experience is unique and other countries can learn a great deal from it.

The above video is a very interesting watch.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. I'm with you regarding politics. What I find fascinating is...

  • this forum is Canadian
  • it is the internet travelling lounge for people from countries spread all around the world
  • even though these forum pages contain comments from many nations, it is, by and large, just the USA comments that branch out into politics

A while ago, there was a post in this thread where someone from the US was demanding their right to freedom of speech. As a Canadian forum, though, there are limitations on how far that freedom can extend. I don't think that that person was aware of this. (As an Australian, when I read that comment, it came across as a little bit arrogant and as out of place on these pages.)

It made me think: "Should I start jumping up and down about my federal and state governments? Am I doing the wrong thing by keeping quiet about Australian politics and COVID-19? I wonder what other forum members from around the world and PG Music would think if I started being noisy, too?"

P.P.S. The above said, I have found the COVID-19 health information and statistics given by a number of people in this thread very valuable and insightful and I appreciate the time and trouble that they have gone to to detail it. For those reasons alone, I think the thread is valuable.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 06:05 PM
Exactly. Also this came out today:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-was-most-prepared-country-in-the-world-for-pandemics-johns-hopkins-study-found-in-2019

The US was the most prepared country in the world for a pandemic? All I've read is how crappy we've been including here. I'm getting a little tired of it guys.

This is a serious situation, keep politics out of it.

Bob
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Exactly. Also this came out today:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-was-most-prepared-country-in-the-world-for-pandemics-johns-hopkins-study-found-in-2019

The US was the most prepared country in the world for a pandemic? All I've read is how crappy we've been including here. I'm getting a little tired of it guys.

This is a serious situation, keep politics out of it.

Bob

Doesn't matter how prepared you are if the leader ignores the threat and goes golfing. And it is NOT about politics. But amusing you quote the ultimate politically biased "news" source!
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 07:55 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
.............
This is a serious situation, keep politics out of it.

Bob


A super big +1
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 08:14 PM
hmmm is that what I said? Go reread what I typed please (typo’s and all if needed - my typing sucks, so be it)

I never “typed” or said (yet) it was a "Chinese" virus. I did type “…CHINA CAUSED EVENT…” (anyone not know what an ellipsis is?):

1) It originated in China (no fault of theirs, at least no proof anyway), and

2) China (i.e., the communist gov’t thereof) hid it from world for at least 2-3 weeks if not a full month or more. See the supplied links, I include them again so no one has to scroll back up. This thread has been sort of reduced to links to “the truth” – to web pages that never lie, are never altered in anyway, EVER, by anyone -(honest trust me I 'd never....) and all those links only include pure, unadulterated, and universal objective truth and it is as solid as the Ten Commandments, as given Moses on stone tables and written by the finger of the Almighty Himself! (how many PC infractions did I just incur? I don't care) Hence, my links are as good as the stone tables as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_in_November_2019_%E2%80%93_January_2020#17_November_2019

https://www.businessinsider.com/5-million-left-wuhan-before-coronavirus-quarantine-2020-1

Having beat that dead horse some more, I must beat it a few more strokes. For context I said it before, I’ll say it again: no horse is ever so dead it can’t be beat some more.

After reading links and other sources (be my guest do more Googling) - do we reasonably agree it originated in China or not? Unless, of course, you have proof of other origins and patient zero locations. Maybe Mongolia, Vietnam (China and Vietnam are not really very friendly), Nepal, Canada (they never get credit for a good spy program)...?

Or maybe it is true, maybe the tin hat folks are right: it was created by USAMRIID or other U.S. Gov’t Lab maybe even evil BIG PHARMA (to cash in on the cures?) developed this strain and then Rambo, or Bourne or other black program operative or simply a lowly U.S. Army SOF operator(s), out of say of CENTCOM, went to wine & dine as a cover in Wuhan and sprinkled it around. Tell you what, I'll come out of retirement and I’ll personally look into all the unacknowledged codeword programs and get back to you on that one.

We are finally at the “dead horse beating" part: If it originated in China then by definition, and general English word construction, that really does make it a “Chinese” virus.

Compare English usage to other similar references: It’s not a “Japan” restaurant it is a “Japanese” restaurant; it’s not a “Turkey” restaurant (unless all they serve is turkey meat or they only serve meals to turkeys - LOL) it’s a “Turkish” restaurant; it’s not a “China” restaurant (unless we are in China or they only serve china plates, bowls, cups etc. – again LOL) it’s a “Chinese” restaurant.


Finally, one earlier viewer admonished me that I didn't need to visit this thread if I didn't find it useful, OK he was and is right! So I will see most of you on other posts here at the PG MUSIC forums, assuming you don't block me, but not here (have fun I guess)

To all be safe, be well, be healthy and go live life (or is that GET A LIFE).

Larry
Posted By: raymb1 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 08:55 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 08:57 PM
I knew you or someone would say that about Fox JJJ! I've been prepared and waiting!

Check this out! It's the actual study! On the Johns Hopkins website!


https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/02/27/trump-johns-hopkins-study-pandemic-coronaviruscovid-19-649-em0-art1-dtd-health/

Bob!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 10:04 PM
Bob,

I don't think there's any doubt the virus started in China.

The trouble with calling it the "Chinese Virus" is that it gives racists just another excuse to assault and harass Asians of all backgrounds for something they have nothing to do with.

I'm sure they are just as scared as the rest of us about this whole mess.
Posted By: Tangmo Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/24/20 10:42 PM
Thanks, Noel, for reminding "us" about the obvious. I love your even temper and measured response.

There's a deeply ingrained hubris in the American psyche that assumes every gathering is led by us. The US seems to have rather purposefully given up a role of leadership in the world, but not every American netizen has received the memo. Thanks for your forbearance as "we" deal with this character flaw.

As for the President? I am with most of the rest of the world in saying that he holds no active place in my mind and daily thoughts. I like it that way. That's the way I've lived most of my life--without a single thought about Donald Trump. Neither "yeah" nor "nay". Just absence. Beyond that, when prompted to have a thought he occupies, he gave up access to my soul long before he was elected. How I long for those happy days again.

Do the best you can, everybody. You don't need me to tell you that, because you will.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 12:04 AM
Two steps forward and one step back;

"Trump says there will be 'suicides by the thousands' if the US coronavirus shutdown continues"

"As countries around the world lock down to prevent the spread of the virus, President Donald Trump is pushing for Americans to return to work.

"We have to put the country to work," he said on Fox News Tuesday, warning that if the economy suffers, there will be "suicides by the thousands."

During a Monday evening press briefing, Trump said that deaths caused by a poor economy "definitely would be in far greater numbers than the numbers that we're talking about with regard to the virus."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-suicides-thousands-us-183713796.html



And some people wonder why Trump is getting called out by so many Americans. This is appalling.

Calling criticism of him "politics" is BS folks. He is fumbling his way through so many things that affect the survival of millions and the only thing he cares about is how everything affects him.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 01:43 AM
Why Trump's call to restart the economy in April is being derided as 'totally nuts'

The virtual shutdown of the U.S. economy is barely a week old, yet the debate over when to restart is already in full swing — even as coronavirus cases surge.

The coronavirus pandemic has infected nearly 400,000 people worldwide. With over a dozen U.S. states ordering citizens to remain indoors and shutting down establishments deemed non-essential, economists think the world’s largest economy has already been thrust into a deep recession.

The nearly $2 trillion stimulus package being hammered out in Washington is meant to help stave off the mounting economic carnage, but millions of jobs are still expected to be lost in the coming weeks.

The damage — both economic and political — has stoked a widening debate over when the U.S. can return to a semblance of normalcy. With his re-election chances likely to be defined by a recovery from the crisis, President Donald Trump on Tuesday called for the economy to be restarted by April 12.

“You’re basically turning off the country…that’s never been done before,” Trump told a Fox News town hall.

“Its been very painful for our country. It’s been very destabilizing for our country…but we have to go back to work,” the president added.

‘Totally nuts’
Yet public health experts and Wall Street economists are pushing back against the suggestion that the U.S. economy can restart in a matter of weeks, warning about the risks posed if infections continue to surge. There are now nearly 50,000 domestic COVID-19 cases, with New York considered an epicenter of new infections.

“The experience with China has been you shut down everything for 2-3 months, the number of [new] cases goes to zero, and then you restore economic activity gradually, and that’s the right thing to do,” economist Nouriel “Dr. Doom” Roubini told Yahoo Finance in an interview on Tuesday.

However, Roubini warned that accelerating that timetable would be a recipe for disaster — arguing that the U.S.’s caseload could easily top 500,000 within a month given the rapidly accelerating infection rate.

“This idea we’re going to restart everything soon enough in a week or so is totally nuts,” the famed economist said. “It’s the worst thing you can do, it’s going to be a nightmare and it’s going to imply that [the U.S.] ends up into a depression.”

He added: “Think about what’s going to happen to this economy if you don’t shut down everything for a month or two, whatever it takes, to stop this contagion.”

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/why-trump-to-restart-the-economy-in-april-is-being-derided-as-totally-nuts-190129407.html




People need to speak up now to stop this lunatic from savaging our country with 10's of thousands of Americans dead.
Posted By: CountryTrash Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 07:13 AM
Well here in South Africa we are now entering a 21 day lockdown from Friday. Only Supermarkets/pharmacies/healthcare will remain open.

People are going nuts. They are panic buying, standing/shopping shoulder to shoulder! They seem to think if they don't look you in the eye then then they won't get it or give it...

It is actually surrealistic ...

Our infection rate is now starting to spike..

I think its going to get worse before it will get better.

It feels like War of the World's Red Weed that is spreading. I wonder where the Aliens actually landed first , Wuhan?
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 02:08 PM
.

Attached picture 8ujNg6H.jpg
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 02:28 PM
EXACTLY Steve!

What makes trolls annoying is if you ignore them they get more demanding for your attention.

If you give them any attention, they get more demanding for your attention.

Now back to people not changing their minds...
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
.............
This is a serious situation, keep politics out of it.

Bob


A super big +1


+2

I was enjoying the tread in the beginning out of concern for the people here.

Now it's become the most political "NOT POLITICAL!!!!!!!" post I have seen.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 03:20 PM
Bob, just stop it. Please?

The question when to put everybody back to work is the 800 pound gorilla. What is the timeline? What should it be? What could it be? "The cure is worse than the disease" is a legitimate point to raise.

This is a real debate that is going on right now. This 2T stimulus package is designed to cover a portion of workers paychecks for 4 months. In addition to that $1,200 to each individual making less than 75K. All that does is move this thing from being a total catastrophe to a mere standard disaster.

People are being trained to be very careful now, we all can see it. The behavior is slowly being ingrained into everybody, some more than others. I'm in LA and do taxes. I work from home and the office. The building is only open to tenants with electronic security cards. Swipe to open the door and again to use the elevator. In the office we're all staying apart, lots of sanitizer and wipes. I use fresh paper towels from the mens room to open the door to anywhere then wash my hands all the time.

I'm pretty sure everybody in the country is doing the same thing now. Give it a few more weeks for this safety training to become even more ingrained and I think it will be safe enough for everyone to get back to work. Imagine an office with say 50 people in cubicles and a few are sloppy with this. Trust me the others will come down on them hard and if they don't they'll get sent home.

When I say "safe enough" I'm not saying as safe as it was before, I mean the risk while still there is manageable. Obviously we're not there yet but another 3 to 5 weeks we could be.

Bottom line we can probably agree next week is too soon and year end is too long because if we stay in lockdown until Christmas that would be an economic catastrophe this country has never seen before. Any nation's national security is based on it's economy. The question then is at what time between next week and Christmas do we get back to work?

Don't ridicule the President for talking about that.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 04:00 PM
Bob,

We're obviously coming at this from different viewpoints, and that is perfectly okay.

It appears that you have some confidence in Trump to try to do the right thing. That must be a pretty good feeling.

I have absolutely NO confidence in Trump to even try to the right thing. That's not a good feeling. I honestly believe the only person he cares about is himself. Everything else is just a political calculation about what might help him get re-elected.

I'm not naive enough to believe that politicians don't make calculations like that all the time. This the only time I've ever even suspected that a sitting president couldn't possibly care less about this country and its people beyond what they could do for him.

I won't be quiet about that.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 04:23 PM
"The cure is worse than the disease" is a legitimate point to raise.

Legitmate point?? It's a stinking platitude! Which is the most offensive ignorant misinformed piece of crap platitude I have ever heard. Period. It's disgusting mentally ill fascist talk from an ignoramus and cohorts who values money and adoration over all else and are more concerned about an upcoming election than public health. Makes me want to puke.

The disease being referred to in this case is literally DEATH - there is nothing worse than death where death can be preventable. This is not just an old people's problem. 48% of the deaths in this country are people under fifty.

This is not about a senseless outrageous slogan a politician made up. The only legitimate point is life and death.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Sundance
"The cure is worse than the disease" is a legitimate point to raise.

Legitmate point?? It's a stinking platitude! Which is the most offensive ignorant misinformed piece of crap platitude I have ever heard. Period. It's disgusting mentally ill fascist talk from an ignoramus and cohorts who values money and adoration over all else and are more concerned about an upcoming election than public health. Makes me want to puke.

The disease being referred to in this case is literally DEATH - there is nothing worse than death where death can be preventable. This is not just an old people's problem. 48% of the deaths in this country are people under fifty.

This is not about a senseless outrageous slogan a politician made up. The only legitimate point is life and death.



Its good to hear from you Sundance. Take care and be safe.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 04:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Sundance
"The cure is worse than the disease" is a legitimate point to raise.

Legitmate point?? It's a stinking platitude! Which is the most offensive ignorant misinformed piece of crap platitude I have ever heard. Period. It's disgusting mentally ill fascist talk from an ignoramus and cohorts who values money and adoration over all else and are more concerned about an upcoming election than public health. Makes me want to puke.

The disease being referred to in this case is literally DEATH - there is nothing worse than death where death can be preventable. This is not just an old people's problem. 48% of the deaths in this country are people under fifty.

This is not about a senseless outrageous slogan a politician made up. The only legitimate point is life and death.

Well said Sundance!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 04:59 PM
I'm talking the big picture. Everybody understands medical triage. I'm talking about economic triage.

Are you willing to throw this country's and the entire world's economy's into total ruin over a virus that has a better than a 99% survival rate? Just like in an ER, sometimes difficult decisions must be made and some will die including me because I'm 74. That doesn't change the calculation. Doesn't matter if anyone believes Trumps motives, the question about how long to stay locked down remains.

Doesn't matter who's in power.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 05:00 PM
Bob,

The economy will recover.

Dead people won't.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 05:09 PM
The "cure is worse than the disease" folks are missing one extremely critical point. Without extreme measures the hospitals WILL BE OVERWHELMED within weeks. States like New York, California and Illinois are already doing what should be done nationally to try and stop this. And when the hospitals are overwhelmed with sick and dying the economy will be in far worse shape.

Again, this is NOT a political issue! Here is what two prominent REPUBLICANS are saying as they urge trump NOT to "back off aggressive containment policies within the United States."

"There is no functioning economy unless we control the virus...When it comes to how to fight #CoronavirusPandemic, I’m making my decisions based on healthcare professionals like Dr. Fauci and others, not political punditry" - Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.

"There will be no normally functioning economy if our hospitals are overwhelmed and thousands of Americans of all ages, including our doctors and nurses, lay dying because we have failed to do what’s necessary to stop the virus" - Rep. Liz Cheney, R-Wy.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Are you willing to throw this country's and the entire world's economy's into total ruin over a virus that has a better than a 99% survival rate?

YES!

I don't think you see this in the big picture. Imagine hospitals overwhelmed across the nation. And it is easy to imagine because take a look at Italy right now!

Now think about your comment about it being just "a virus that has a better than a 99% survival rate". Yeah, on its face that sounds like something we can just live with, right?

Well, NO!

The problem is it is new and we have no immunity and no vaccine.

The problem is it spreads fast and far. It already has. trump bragged about us having only 15 cases and said it would soon be zero. Now we have 54,453 people infected that we know of.

Left unchecked, or even left inadequately checked, or America opened up by Easter, means certain overwhelming of our hospitals. Not enough ICU beds. Not enough ventilators. Not enough healthcare pros who are not themselves infected and home sick.

At that point people die who did not need to die. Yes, maybe it affects the elderly more and some seem to think that is a price we can afford. But what about all the people who would normally go to the ER at that point? A very sick baby? A mom who just had a heart attack? A dad in a bad accident? Guess what? Those people die too because the system is overwhelmed!

This is NOT hype! It is already happening in other countries.

And when this happens here how good do you think the economy will be once we have an overwhelmed system and then we must shut it down again? The second time will be far longer and harder.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 05:46 PM
JohnJohnJohn,

First, I would like to say you had, in my opinion, some really good points in these last two posts. To me, conversations could be had about what you said. That's productive.

However, saying things like...

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

Again, this is NOT a political issue! Here is what two prominent REPUBLICANS are saying as they urge trump NOT to "back off aggressive containment policies within the United States."


makes it political. I do understand what you were going for; and it's a valid attempt at showing that. I like what Morgan Freeman had to say when asked about how to get past racism. His response, "stop talking about it." I thought that was brilliant.

In this thread, there have definitely been people who have an agenda beyond the pandemic we are facing. It IS political for them; and them just saying it's not doesn't make it true. Some don't even say it. They just bash and blame away with no concern. You can tell this by the pleads to stop with the political BS followed by several posts about political BS.

I know some people could care less about what I am saying. That is the problem. This forum is a great place to be. When people start spouting off with total disregard for the forum and the people on it; I do feel the need to say something.

I would really like to see how our friends in other countries are doing; and how they are facing things. I would also like to support our community where possible. I like this place and what goes on here musically.

We are guests here. I think we need to remember that.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 06:08 PM
HearToLearn, we are facing a potential catastrophe worldwide. Thousands or maybe millions dead who didn't need to die.

I truly hope the worst pain you experience in this crisis is the "political BS" in this thread.

I stand by Everything I've said here!
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
HearToLearn, we are facing a potential catastrophe worldwide. Thousands or maybe millions dead who didn't need to die.


I'm well aware of this.

Quote:
I truly hope the worst pain you experience in this crisis is the "political BS" in this thread.


I don't think that will be the case; but that doesn't change that it shouldn't be here. It's not what this board or forum is supposed to be about.

Quote:
I stand by Everything I've said here!

The sad thing is, most of what I stated had nothing to do with you and wasn't recognized as such.
As far as you were concerned, you seemed as though you were trying to prove how this wasn't political for you. If that was the case, I thought I would show you a perspective of how someone may take what you're saying as being political. I see now that you weren't looking to relate. You are looking to defend your stance regardless of effectiveness. That just makes me curious the point if it's not about being effective. Not enough to make me really want to know though. So, I'm good. Please keep safe.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I stand by Everything I've said here!

Like I said...
Posted By: DrDan Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 06:58 PM
I live in the northern Illinois, the far NW suburbs of Chicago. My wife is a retired nurse. In conversation with her nursing family we were informed that the two major hospitals in our area both are each reporting 1 case of a patient admitted for Corona virus. That is two in total! Not sure what that means but I was greatly surprised by this fact. Meanwhile I sit at home and watch my business slowly die.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I stand by Everything I've said here!

Like I said...


Yes you did. No surprise.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
I live in the northern Illinois, the far NW suburbs of Chicago. My wife is a retired nurse. In conversation with her nursing family we were informed that the two major hospitals in our area both are each reporting 1 case of a patient admitted for Corona virus. That is two in total! Not sure what that means but I was greatly surprised by this fact. Meanwhile I sit at home and watch my business slowly die.


Hopefully you will be able to get some help with that. Best of luck to you. smile
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 08:19 PM
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I stand by Everything I've said here!

Like I said...


Yes you did. No surprise.

Great!
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 08:24 PM
What's happening in my little corner of the world...

I live in the Australian state of Victoria. The below pdf is Australia's federal response to COVID-19.

Australia's Health Response to COVID-19

We are currently on what's called "Stage 2 Restrictions". This includes things like...

  • no more than 5 people can attend a wedding
  • a maximum of 10 people at a funeral
  • maintaining social distancing of 1.5 metres or a maximum or 1 person per 4 square metres
  • wash hands regularly and avoid touching your face (because of the virus' ability to survive for days on various surfaces)
  • family gatherings are out
  • cinemas, sporting events, stadiums, etc., are closed
  • 2 weeks self-isolation applies if: returning from overseas; travelling to some of the other Australian states; one is exposed to COVID-19. This is being monitored by police and enforced where needed. There is a maximum fine of $20,000 for anyone who flouts this.
  • essential services -- supermarkets, pharmacies, doctors, etc. -- are operating
  • our major supermarkets have set times where only the elderly and disabled can shop and separate set times where only people from the health sector can shop. The regular population shops outside these times.
  • restaurants are only open for take-away food
  • we are told to stay indoors unless we have to travel to doctors, supermarkets, etc.
  • the list goes on...

So far, around 2,000,000 people (10% of our population) have become unemployed. Our major airlines are down to around 10% of their usual number of flights, and daily I read in the paper about more industries that have temporarily closed and have suspended people's employment. Our state and federal governments are doing what they can to provide financial safety nets.

I'm a school teacher and at the end of last week, my school moved to distance education. This means, that my classes are now conducted over the internet using Microsoft Teams. Since I'm a 'chalk and talk' kind of teacher, MS Teams (with video and audio) and Onenote suits me perfectly. However, many of my colleagues are not finding it that easy to instruct their students online. We are told that it is likely that we will be remote teaching for some time yet. No-one knows how long because this is all new territory.

Because being a classroom with close contact to 25 students is a bit scary right now, I'm glad that I can work via the internet. After having had a number of serious health issues in the last handful of years, I don't think that I'd cope too well with COVID-19. I don't want to find out whether or not that is true, though.

  • As a number of others have indicated in posts above this one, the important thing always to keep in mind with COVID-19 is that the ONLY reason that the statistics are favourable right now is because governments all over the world have taken action to contain transmission of the virus. This has stopped hospital systems from being overwhelmed and has allowed people to be treated. Italy and Spain are showing the world what it looks like when health sectors start crumbling.

    In the news, article after article shows just how ferociously and eagerly this virus travels from person to person. Because of this, it would be very easy for countries to become incapable of providing treatment. If that happens, the statistics would change enormously because escalating cases would be impossible to accommodate.

The 'around 1% death-rate' is misleading because it more closely represents the best case scenario where medical containment of the virus has been, more or less, accomplished. Were this virus allowed to run wild and free, the situation around the world would be vastly different than it is right now.

Literally, we are all in this together. I'm more than happy for my governments to err on the side of caution. As Sundance says, there's no coming back from death. I'm going to do whatever it takes to stay alive as long as I can. 'Inconvenience' is a small price to pay for living.

I'd love to hear stories from other forum members in other countries and find out what they are doing and how they are coping.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 09:04 PM
This morning, there was an article in one of our newspapers, The Age, about how the corona virus' impact on mental health is around seven times greater than the impact of the bushfires. The link is below (although this probably won't work if you are outside Australia).

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/coronavirus-impact-on-mental-health-seven-times-bushfire-anxiety-20200325-p54dwg.html

This is pretty frightening because the emotional damage of the bushfires was enormous!

This article made me realise that, even though we are now in a state of household isolation I need to keep in touch with friends and family and be mindful that they may not be coping well.

Because I'm a teacher, I have a job that is regarded as essential. This means that I am guaranteed an income. Some of my friends and family do not have that guarantee. Because of this, I have told those around me that if they need money for living expenses, they should ask me for it without feeling embarrassed. While I can't promise to cover everything, I will certainly do what I can to help. Even if I cannot provide money, I might have some thoughts that could help reduce anxiety.

These are extraordinary times and I don't want to lose anyone because I could have helped out when they couldn't cope.

In 2014, I lost a son to medication for severe PTSD that was a consequence of his years of working in Iraq and Afghanistan. The day he died, my employer let me have time off to be with him. When lunch ended, I debated in my mind whether or not to return to work or to take him home - he lived about an hour's drive away. I chose to go back to work because he was in good spirits and so I sent him home on a train. I never again want to feel the immense guilt and the overwhelming loss that I felt when he left this world later that day.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 10:26 PM
Originally Posted By: CountryTrash
Well here in South Africa we are now entering a 21 day lockdown from Friday. Only Supermarkets/pharmacies/healthcare will remain open.

People are going nuts. They are panic buying, standing/shopping shoulder to shoulder! They seem to think if they don't look you in the eye then then they won't get it or give it...

It is actually surrealistic ...

Our infection rate is now starting to spike..

I think its going to get worse before it will get better.

It feels like War of the World's Red Weed that is spreading. I wonder where the Aliens actually landed first , Wuhan?

I know how you probably feel. Driving around mid-week on major roads that have little traffic certainly does feel spooky. I guess the good side is that vehicular CO2 emissions will drop for a little while.

Your situation doesn't sound too different from what's happening here. Fortunately our panic buying is settling down and supermarket shelves are starting to fill again.

All the best with the lockdown!
Noel
Posted By: SpaceDog Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 10:52 PM
I simply want to wish everyone well and hope the you are spared the worst of the impacts from the health issues to economic issues. At times like this we find out more about ourselves than anything else. I pray that when this is over we are all able to live with the decisions we made and the things we have lost.

Don't lose hope or faith.

Mike Bonadonna (DC SpaceDog)
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 10:56 PM
Originally Posted By: SpaceDog
I simply want to wish everyone well and hope the you are spared the worst of the impacts from the health issues to economic issues. At times like this we find out more about ourselves than anything else. I pray that when this is over we are all able to live with the decisions we made and the things we have lost.

Don't lose hope or faith.

Mike Bonadonna (DC SpaceDog)

They're really nice words, Mike.

Thanks for posting them.

All the best to you and yours too.
Noel
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 11:26 PM
Look guys, you're not reading and understanding my last two posts about needing to get the world back to work. I'm not talking about now or even a month from now. I only posed a question earlier and I'll rephrase it again and then make a few comments. Here it is:

How long would you shut down the the worlds economies? DO NOT answer "As long as it takes". Give me some kind of answer. Christmas? Sometime next year? If some of you answer yes to that then think about that for a minute because NO government anywhere can support everybody that long. No schools for a year and a half? All sports leagues, concerts, Las Vegas and all that stuff shut down until when, 2022?

I know the numbers and potential numbers as much as anyone here. This virus is now the new normal, it's not going to go away no matter what we do. What does "keeping it under control" mean? What does having a vaccine mean? We've had a decent but not perfect vaccine for the flu for decades yet millions get it and hundreds of thousands die of the flu every year. My guess is unless we're very lucky and this thing mutates itself out of existence, it's going to be with us basically for years, decades even. We can't shut down everything for even one year, much less decades. It's death stats will simply have to be added to everything else we're at risk from.

Just another anecdote from this morning. I was scheduled for my annual physical at the West Los Angeles VA today. It's one of the largest VA's in the country. I got a call from the nurse last week saying they had stopped taking walkins for routine appointments and my doctor would call me for a telephone consult which he did. I need to do the usual annual blood work and he said just check the website and I'll be notified when they think it appropriate to come in for that, he thought 4 to 6 weeks or so. I asked him how many COVID 19 patients they had. He said 1 for sure that he knew of, maybe 2. I was shocked. That's it? I figured at least 10 or 15 by now. And the VA is heavily weighted towards older patients some going back to WW2. The VA is also the largest single health care system in the US. This is in the face of our governor saying he expects 56% of California's population of about 30 million to catch this within 60 days. So he's been telling people over 20 MILLION Californians are going to get infected in 60 days?? Where's the evidence of anything remotely like that anywhere in the world?

I'm sorry folks, call me stupid, call me unrealistic but I really don't see that happening. Not that isn't still very serious but man, give me a break.

Oh and FWIW, the WHO today said Trump is doing great with the response to this.

Bob
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/25/20 11:52 PM
In Louisiana we had one case on Mar 9. Today we have 1795 cases and 65 dead.
Posted By: Tangmo Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 12:00 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
...
How long would you shut down the the worlds economies?...

Bob


How the hell should "we" know?

Here's a few suggestions.

1. When testing is widely enough available to confirm and/or modify the models.

2. When appropriate Health Officials declare that a relaxing of social distancing restrictions would not put us back to square 1 in exponential increase in infections, making all this current pain absolutely pointless.

3. When appropriate government officials listen to them, plan for the "re-opening", and communicate effectively. In the US, those officials are state-wide and local as well as national. NYC and New Orleans might need to handle things differently than Bismark SD. They may need to do so not only for "themselves" but for their less effected neighbors. The rest of the world will handle things as they see fit in their situations.

If those suggestions too much resemble "as long as it takes", feel free to name your own date and rationale.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 12:06 AM
Bob,

How long should we shut down? I don't have a clue. I'm just a layman with no medical background. But April 15 seems to be rushing it.

I called one of my sisters today to check on her, and she's a big Trump supporter and even she was worried about the April 15 date.

Since we don't have a clue how many people have it and aren't showing symptoms yet, then it would seem to me that a target date at this point would be the middle of May at the earliest.

The experts can't even agree on how long its going to take, so my WAG means nothing.

I'm just an old overweight fart with high blood pressure and just had 5 heart bypasses in open heart surgery a little over a year ago. If I get a bad case of it, I'm toast.

What worries me much more than myself is my young adult son. He's been prone to viruses and bacterial infections since he was an infant so this is a big concern for both of us.

So once again, April 15 seems to be much too soon to set as a potential target date. An additional 30 days would be hard on the economy but it wouldn't be devastating.

Hopefully Keith will weigh in with a more educated estimate since he knows much more about this than any of us.
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 12:09 AM
Jazzmammal et. al. Look at this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

This is what is very scary. I’ve been looking at it for a week and the daily figures from all over are very scary indeed.

We in Oz are lucky at least on the surface all areas and sides of Government seem to be working together.

My thoughts

Tony
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 01:37 AM
A little bit of cheery news here in Hong Kong. Due to all the Covid-19 precautions, our annual flu deaths are way down and the flu season has been shortened. Death rate down by at least a couple of hundred. Pollution over China is also way down. We will learn a lot from this episode. It seems, if you can believe what you're told, that China and more importantly S. Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong seem to be keeping a lid on Covid, at least for the moment. We've gone back to serious self-isolation as there is a spike due to infected folks coming back to Hong Kong.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 02:46 AM
Bob,

These are my thoughts...

Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
How long would you shut down the the worlds economies? DO NOT answer "As long as it takes". Give me some kind of answer.

Who knows? You're an accountant. If you don't know why on earth would I know???? I'm just a secondary high school teacher.

My immediate concern is not when this is over, it's getting to tomorrow.

Getting to the future requires travelling through the present. If tomorrow doesn't come for me, then no amount of my worrying about world economies is going to amount to anything. I'll cross that bridge later in the journey, if I get to it.

At the moment, I'm just doing all I can to ensure that I make it through today.

Quote:
...I'll be notified when they think it appropriate to come in for that, he thought 4 to 6 weeks or so. I asked him how many COVID 19 patients they had. He said 1 for sure that he knew of, maybe 2. I was shocked. That's it? I figured at least 10 or 15 by now.

Did you ask how many tests they'd done? The numbers you give are not that relevant if you don't know how many tests were conducted.

Here in Australia, the government is not testing everyone. This means there could be heaps of people around who have the virus and don't know. That's why I'm a supporter of social distancing.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 02:47 AM
I don't care what those numbers are, I don't care what the percentages or projections are, that's not my point. IT'S IRRELEVANT.

This 2 trillion stimulus package is designed to get us through 4 months, that's it. After that there's no more bullets in the gun. Unemployment is not going to pay your rent or mortgage, or car payments or maintain your standard of living. It's just to try to hold things together and keep us from starving during that period. If you don't bloody well get your job back fairly soon you're toast economically. What about past recessions you say, people survived for years before they got rehired or found new jobs. This isn't the same scenario and I'm not going to explain it it would take way to long. Just believe me here.

Just one example. You have a mortgage but are forced to default on it. Normally it goes back to the bank and they sell it. The numbers even during a very bad recession is manageable because EVERYBODY is not being forced into foreclosure. If the ENTIRE economy stays shut down for a year or more the banks have absolutely no one to sell those houses to. The banks go under because the FDIC means nothing if there's nothing coming into the treasury. Boeing goes bankrupt because there is NOBODY to buy their planes, the airlines go under because nobody's flying and so on throughout the economy from cars to TV's to computers to casino's to EVERYTHING. The authorities all know this in every modern country in the world.

Read this article about flu cases and flu deaths.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year

I'm not comparing the flu to COVID 19, I am saying we've been willing to go to work have a good life and enjoy our good economy in spite of these flu numbers. By themselves these numbers are alarming, no? Where is the outcry that we should shut our schools and everything else until these numbers are eliminated? Somebody earlier said we're talking about DEATH here. Right, what about these deaths? The flu will never be eradicated because a very large number of the population refuse to get vaccinated. The estimate I think is about 30%. Great, 70% is still a decent number and so far we're all perfectly willing to live with the resulting serious flu cases and deaths. Just another cost of doing business, right?

Why are you guys not jumping up and down, blaming Trump and everybody else for not doing something about it? We should be ignoring peoples religious and personal beliefs and passing laws you MUST get vaccinated or go to jail. (Actually, not a bad idea) The world governments could have done the same thing they're doing now by deciding these flu deaths are unacceptable and nobody does anything until we get a better handle on it. Why haven't they?

Because the general public wouldn't stand for it that's why. In other words, those deaths ARE acceptable. We hope for the best, plan for the worst but overall we also have to accept reality, we're all going back to work, no not by April 15 and maybe not by May either but sooner than you think. We simply cannot afford to do otherwise. Yes it will be sugarcoated somewhat, they'll make us believe it's the best thing and NO it's not just because Trump wants to get re-elected because all the major governments will do the same and believe me they're already planning for it. They're not going to throw the entire world into the economic stone age because of this virus. I'm thinking it's not going to be that terrible but even if it is, we literally have no choice, we will just have to live with it.

Lets say the hopeful thinking comes true, that spring is here it will quiet down somewhat, almost go away in the summer but comes roaring back in the fall. We're going to shut down all the schools again, kill the entire new school year and everything else for another 6 months or whatever? No way will that happen. There is no second 2 trillion dollar bailout coming, we'd be on our own.

And yes folks, if we keep the world shut down for a long time (pick a number) like a year or more the the cure IS worse than the disease. It is "only" about a 1 percent fatality rate and of course 1 percent in absolute terms is a very large number. But...we can live with it and survive very well not because it's ok, or we're murderous serial killers or anything like that, it's because we'll have no choice. We'll live with it, keep working to eradicate it and move on.

Bob

Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 03:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Sundance
In Louisiana we had one case on Mar 9. Today we have 1795 cases and 65 dead.

Hi Josie,

Those statistics say it all. It's definitely a virus to be wary of.

Here in Australia, because of the measures that we now have in place, the number of new cases has fallen for the last two days. They're the vertical light-blue bars on the graph.

Hopefully this continues. I'm taking it as a positive sign that isolating oneself where possible, practising social distancing and keeping hands washed is working.



As of March 25, we have identified 2,423 cases and there have been 8 deaths. Our population is around 25.5 million people.

A large proportion of our cases -- I'm guessing but the graph shows that it's around 70 - 80% -- have come from overseas. The pie chart below shows which countries were the origins of the travellers. The two large sections are Dark Blue (Europe) and Lightest Blue (The Americas).

Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 03:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Teunis
We in Oz are lucky at least on the surface all areas and sides of Government seem to be working together.

Hi Tony,

I agree. The top graph that I posted in my reply to Sundance shows that the number of new cases for the last two days have fallen noticeably. This is great news.

I'm more than happy to pay the price of inconvenience to achieve this.

From what I've heard, and seen on Youtube, the journey through a full-blown case of COVID-19 is extremely painful and it seems that it's not possible without external ventilation.

Also, because lungs are so badly damaged by the virus, I imagine that there are long term problems for many people who survive. I haven't read too much about this yet, though.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/26/what-happens-to-peoples-lungs-when-they-get-coronavirus

Maybe we are the "Lucky Country" once more!

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 03:28 AM
Originally Posted By: lambada
A little bit of cheery news here in Hong Kong. Due to all the Covid-19 precautions, our annual flu deaths are way down and the flu season has been shortened. Death rate down by at least a couple of hundred. Pollution over China is also way down. We will learn a lot from this episode. It seems, if you can believe what you're told, that China and more importantly S. Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong seem to be keeping a lid on Covid, at least for the moment. We've gone back to serious self-isolation as there is a spike due to infected folks coming back to Hong Kong.

Hi Neil,

I was talking to a work colleague today about how countries who were significantly exposed to SARS back in 2003'ish are much better prepared than us in fielding COVID-19. We mentioned Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea... these are doing an excellent job!

These COVID success-stories provide good beginning models for other countries to work with for the next time we see a pandemic. (I'm pretty sure it will arise again.)

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 03:53 AM
Hi again, Neil,

Just in case you are interested, here is a snapshot of COVID-19 as of March 24 in a few countries.

South Korea have definitely kept the lid on the virus in a big way. What makes this even more impressive is that their population is around 51 million people.



If you are interested in seeing more pretty amazing COVID-19 graphs, go to...

https://www.statista.com/chartoftheday/

...and have a look around. David Cuny posted this link the other day and there are some pretty amazing data presentations at the site.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 05:14 AM
Thanks for the graphs. Interesting times. I spend my time when not on line teaching watching CNN, Fox, BBC, Bloomberg, Al Jazeera, RU, France 24, Sky TV etc etc. It can get overwhelming so I read Reuters for peace of mind.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 07:13 AM
Here's an excerpt from an article released late night about the timeline we were discussing.

Fauci: 'You don't make the timeline, the virus makes the timeline' on relaxing public health measures

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, had a straightforward message Wednesday night about how long the novel coronavirus could affect daily life in the US: "You don't make the timeline, the virus makes the timeline."

"You've got to be realistic," Fauci told CNN's Chris Cuomo on "Prime Time."

"And you've got to understand that you don't make the timeline, the virus makes the timeline. So you've got to respond, in what you see happen. And if you keep seeing this acceleration, it doesn't matter what you say. One week, two weeks, three weeks -- you've got to go with what the situation on the ground is."

His comments appear at odds with President Donald Trump's growing desire to ease the public health guidelines that have shuttered businesses and kept workers at home as the virus has spread. The President has even said he wants the nation "opened up and just raring to go by Easter" -- a date just weeks away that few health experts believe will be sufficient in containing the outbreak.

"You may see in a relatively shorter period of time, when you're seeing the inkling of the flattening and coming down," Fauci said in reference to slowing the speed of the outbreak. "But you know, you can't make an arbitrary decision until you see what you're dealing with. You need the data."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/politics/anthony-fauci-coronavirus-timeline-cnntv/index.html
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 08:45 AM
Bob,

They had a write up about Dr Anthony Fauci in the Melbourne paper a few days. He's an extraordinary individual. I doubt that there is a more competent expert on epidemics anywhere. What he says makes perfect sense. The virus controls the timeline.

How people respond to the virus and impede its transmission also impacts on the timeline. Ultimately, though, the virus has the last say because it doesn't just disappear in 24 hours.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Teunis Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 08:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Bob,

They had a write up about Dr Anthony Fauci in the Melbourne paper a few days. He's an extraordinary individual. I doubt that there is a more competent expert on epidemics anywhere. What he says makes perfect sense. The virus controls the timeline.

How people respond to the virus and impede its transmission also impacts on the timeline. Ultimately, though, the virus has the last say because it doesn't just disappear in 24 hours.

Regards,
Noel


At least Sco Mo told folks to expect at least 6 months. I just hope he can get his business hibernation to work. If so there is at least some hope down the track.

Tony
Posted By: Janice & Bud Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 09:36 AM
Noel,

We appreciate your calm, studied data-based approach. We are a bit weary of posts that are overly didactic and filled with imperative sentences.

Thank you,

J&B
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 09:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
We are a bit weary of posts that are overly didactic and filled with imperative sentences.

You're not alone...
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 09:48 AM
The answer to Bob's question is simple. When the fear of starving or better yet watching your kids starve overcomes your fear of going out to work, you will go back to work.

Not even the US government has enough printing presses to sustain this fore more than a few months.

This is not the end of the world. Worst case millions die and the rest become immune.

This is not a safe planet and never has been. Keep dumping plastic in the ocean and you are going to die. Yellow Stone blows it top and you are going to die. Some fool touches the wrong button and you die. Asteroid....and on and on.

Amazon will sell you a pretty good Hazmat suit that will protect you even in the old folks home where everyone has the virus.

You don't have to die from this, just get off your butt and take some action.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 10:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Teunis
At least Sco Mo told folks to expect at least 6 months. I just hope he can get his business hibernation to work. If so there is at least some hope down the track.

In Victoria, Dan Andrews will probably head off in his own direction eventually. I was reading The Age tonight and it was saying about how the federal government will ultimately be supporting tweaks that states make to the existing restrictions.

Each state has its own unique circumstances to consider so it makes sense to me.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 10:50 AM
I don't care what the percentage is, if I die it's 100%. If my wife dies it's 100%.

My lungs are important, even if I survive what about permanent reduced lung function? I make my living with my lungs, saxophone, wind synthesizer, flute, and vocals all need strong lungs.

Understanding exponential curves, IMO a lock-down is the right approach. This "herd immunity" concept means many more people will die than if we practice "flattening the curve"

If we go for the herd immunity concept, the hospitals will be overloaded way beyond capacity, many people who could be saved will die. The 1%, 4% or whatever the fatality rate is now will skyrocket and the very medical professionals we count on will have their numbers greatly reduced. It takes years to train a new doctor or nurse. So what about next year, or what about if you get some other disease and there is no one there to help you?

The president seems to be saying, "You should give up your life for the sake of the stock market and for my re-election". Remember, 80% of the stocks are owned by the 5%. The oligarchy who are really running the show.

I don't care if the stock market hits a new low, I don't care if the hedge fund investors go broke, I do care if I live or die. My life is more important than Trump's, the economy, and everything else on the planet.

For those who say, "Your lives are less important than the economy" I say, do with the kings of old did, get on your proverbial horse and get in the front line of battle. If you think our lives are that trivial, then I suggest, 'You first'.

Sorry about the rant, but the complete mismanagement by our sefl-called "genius" is threatening my life. And remember, the Captain is always responsible for the condition of the ship. He can't blame the last captain or the first mate. It's his responsibility.

And not for a bit of humor to lighten up the day:

Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 10:54 AM
Love that pic Notes.... Here's another:

Attached picture im-no-expert-on-covid-19-but-this-is-the-cure-literally-band.jpg
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 11:01 AM
Notes,

I'm with you 100%.

My main concern is my son. He's a h*ll of a lot more important to me than the economy. My secondary concern is the rest of my family.

Last of all, I'd like to live through this thing myself.

Trump, as always, is looking out for himself and his donors. I don't think the country and the individual lives of Americans matter to him at all. I wish I was wrong, but I don't think I am.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 11:40 AM
Yes and I repeat. Those who want us to give up our lives for the sake of the economy - please lead the way.

When the titanic hits an iceberg, the first mate isn't to blame, the captain is. So if Trump wants us to give up our lives, he must go down with the ship or I'm not listening.

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 11:45 AM
I just had a thought today. If I die from this virus, my wife is going to sell my Guitar Collection for what I told her I paid for them. shocked
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: KeithS
I just had a thought today. If I die from this virus, my wife is going to sell my Guitar Collection for what I told her I paid for them. shocked


Have her contact me please..... grin
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 12:07 PM
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
We are a bit weary of posts that are overly didactic and filled with imperative sentences.

You're not alone...


No, you are not alone.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
We are a bit weary of posts that are overly didactic and filled with imperative sentences.

You're not alone...


No, you are not alone.


So agreed.

I am hoping my comments yesterday did not cross those lines. I've seen so much of it I felt I should say something. That could be taken as me doing the same. Let me straight out say, if my opinion is different than anyone else's I do not think I'm superior. We are all human. I don't understand how some people come to the conclusions they do. No amount of "facts" they present will entirely do that. That means things like this bring out the best and worst of us. I try to focus on the person. I very much believe we are all equals. Although we have strengths and weakness unique to us; I believe we are meant to fill in the gaps for each other.

I've said my peace. Now I'm grabbing popcorn and sitting back. Stay safe all!
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 02:06 PM
Noel-my children had to start online schooling last Tuesday. There were a few small hiccups in adjusting, but overall it has gone very well. My kids enjoy it; but do miss their friends.

In full disclosure, my children are MUCH better students than I was. They feel like they have slept in when they start their school (self paced) at 9:30am. Most days they are done around lunch, aside from waiting back for answers/feedback on what they have done.

The teachers are to be truly commended for their efforts. I can't even begin to imagine the adjustments on their side. You are one the people I would believe would adapt very well. The other side of the equation would be the willingness of the students. Of course, many will do fine. But there are the less motivated, or some that have issues at home that would make it difficult. School will be taught; with lessons coming from it far beyond the required lessons.

I truly wish you the best of luck!
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 03:13 PM
Just informed - my doctor has discontinued routine monthly lab tests to minimize my exposure to virii. Phlebotomists are the ideal host/carrier as they make their rounds from the hospital to nursing homes.

You might ask your doctor if he/she will postpone routine labs.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Noel,

We appreciate your calm, studied data-based approach. We are a bit weary of posts that are overly didactic and filled with imperative sentences.

Thank you,

J&B

Good morning, J&B.

After reading the above this morning, I went and had another look at those picture of your property that you sent a while back. Wow! I cannot imagine a better setting to self-isolate. Your wild azaleas must be coming into bloom around now.

Sitting here at my computer, when I look out the window, I can see my back fence about 15 yards away and two side fences. It looks like these are destined to be my new best friends for the immediate future smile

COVID-19 is worrisome. The good thing, though, is that there is a huge amount of knowledge and experience in the world that is now accessible to all of us via the internet and global media. This makes things a whole heap less frightening.

Australians experienced the value of having ready access to information in our recent bushfires. The fires were the worst that we'd ever seen but the loss of life was the kept well below what had become the norm for such events. People even survived in their homes with fires raging all around them because they had a plan that was based on expertise. Here is one brave young woman who captured some of her journey through the fire on video.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=six3BQ9jSdI

This was pretty amazing to me because I'd never heard of this kind of bravery happening before to such an extent as we saw in these fires. It made me realise that what might seem "impossible" today truly can become "I'm possible" tomorrow.

I cannot imagine what the Spanish Flu epidemic back in the early 1900s must have been like when all anyone could see and know about was their own back yard.

It greatly reassures me that when I want to find out the latest way to deal with COVID-19, all I need do is consult Google and read what experts around the world are saying. Their strategies increase my chances of getting through today. Then, when the worst passes, I'll worry about what comes next.

I hope that all is well for you both and that you stay safe.

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
Noel-my children had to start online schooling last Tuesday. There were a few small hiccups in adjusting, but overall it has gone very well. My kids enjoy it; but do miss their friends.

I truly wish you the best of luck!

Thanks, Caaron.

Face-to-face contact is definitely important for emotional growth. Some subjects thrive on discussion and the bouncing around of ideas from student to student. While this is possible online, it's a little harder to manage.

I teach years 11 and 12 and, because of this, I have it a bit easier than many teachers. So far, it's been an adventure for my classes and me and everyone has approached online lessons with good, positive frames of mind.

It will be interesting to see where we go with this as the future unfolds.

I wish you and your family the very best in these times of uncertainty.

Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
Just informed - my doctor has discontinued routine monthly lab tests to minimize my exposure to virii. Phlebotomists are the ideal host/carrier as they make their rounds from the hospital to nursing homes.

You might ask your doctor if he/she will postpone routine labs.

Hi Don,

That's a really good thought about postponing regular testing. I haven't read that before. Thanks for passing it on.

My next door neighbour is in her mid-90s and lives by herself in her own home. I'll pass this thought on to her.

I hope that things are going well for you and that you and your family are travelling through this in the best way possible.

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 08:31 PM
Australia's unemployment is at record levels because of corona virus. Centrelink is the government agency that handles all those who are unemployed. The queues at these agencies are enormous.

This morning I read a really heart-warming story in the paper and I thought I would share it. Sometimes it seems like there are just not enough good news stories at the moment. I hope this article inspires. As I read it, I tried to imagine how the people at the receiving end of this good deed must have felt.

Originally Posted By: The Age
In these bleak times, it's nice to be reminded of just how extraordinary people can be.

Take lawyer and businessman John* (who did not want to use his real name), who rolled up to the Box Hill Centrelink this week and started handing out $100 notes, or as he calls them, "lettuce leaves".

"I came here as a six-year-old from a village in Greece and this country has been good to me," he said.

"I was watching the queues at Centrelink – all those people lining up just so they could buy food for their families – and it made me sick to my stomach. I couldn't take it anymore."

John went to his bank and withdrew the maximum amount of $10,000.

"I started at the back of the line so I didn't miss anyone," he said. "I still had money left over so I went in the building and made sure everyone inside got some too.

"That day they just needed instant relief. These are just innocent people who, through no fault of their own, can't put food on the table.

"There is a lot of wealth in this country and we can ship some of that off so people can get back on their feet, that's all there is to it.

"If everyone who is a little better off can take out what they can and hand out some lettuce leaves, do you know how much better we will be?"


Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/26/20 10:25 PM
Talking about doctors.

I have an annual physical at my docs - cancelled

Just as well, I'm not keen on sitting around in waiting rooms trying to stay 6 feet away, nor do I feel comfortable going to a place where sick people need to go.

I have a routine teeth cleaning appointment at my dentist - cancelled

Same for the waiting room and sitting in a chair with my mouth open while someone who may have touched a COVID person without knowing it hovering over me.

We're learning how to disinfect things with dilute Clorox so we can grocery shop safely.

Since all our gigs until October have been cancelled, we are in economic isolation.

Fortunately 24/7/365 is not enough time for Leilani and me to spent together. It's actually fun to be together all day and night with no other commitments. We're working on style and fake "disks" for Band-in-a-Box.

It's warm out mid 80s in the day and upper 60s at night, the windows are open, the sea breeze is drifting through, the birds chirp all day long, and life is pretty good this way.

It's like we are musicians on a 7 month break.

But we do miss gigging. It's a very fun thing for us to do.

This too will eventually pass.

Stay healthy every one.

Notes

PS, if I crossed over the line airing my frustration, please accept my humble apologies. March is supposed to be our big money month and April tied with February in second place.
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 10:55 AM
No issues with that here Notes.

Our dogs' annual appointments for shots/exams were canceled too.
Posted By: Tangmo Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 11:48 AM
Just two words for the TP poor.

Bum Guns.


Once you've used them (or at least once you've mastered using them) you'll never look back.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 12:11 PM
No problem Notes. I feel your frustration.

Our doctor visits have been cancelled.
Our vet and dog grooming appointments have been cancelled.
Our routine dentist appointments have been cancelled.
My dental implant appointment has been cancelled. So here I sit with a gab in my teeth, a very noticeable gab as it is in the front. Think Alfred E. Newman with the gab in a lower tooth.

But things could be a lot worse.

I hope everyone on these forums are safe and healthy.
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 12:41 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
So here I sit with a gap in my teeth, a very noticeable gap as it is in the front.

Send me a pic of that!! I'll use it in my next video. laugh
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 03:06 PM
I totally understand economics is not well understood among a group of musicians. Notes made a point that he doesn't care if hedge fund managers go broke. Ok, what would make them go broke? What is their money based on?

The stock market. What is the stock market based on? All the companies we all know and some love. Apple, GM, IBM, Chevron, Airlines, Tech, Healthcare and on and on. If the wealthy people who own tons of stock go broke it's because the market crashed. Why would the market crash? Because all these companies crashed. What makes them crash? Nobody is buying what they're selling. What do these companies do? They hire people to work for them, millions and millions of people who are then out of work.

So no, you do not want all the hedge fund managers and everybody else in the market to go broke. Very, very bad for all of us.

Here's the breakdown of the top 10% wage earners by income in 2018:

Top 0.1% of Earners $2,757,000 5.2%
Top 1% of Earners $718,766 13.4%
Top 5% of Earners $299,810 28.0%
Top 10% of Earners $118,400 39.1%

Look at the Top 10% number. Is 118K some greedy filthy rich person who rapes and pillages the "little people"? I have a client who's a deputy sheriff, he makes 75K and his wife is a nurse who makes the same. 150K household income. Where is their retirement money? In the stock market along with millions of others in mostly 401K plans. It crashes, the hedge fund managers go broke what happens to their 401K retirement?

I'm only giving this very basic lesson in economics here because it is the main point I made earlier that we WILL be going back to work relatively soon regardless of what the virus does because we have no choice. Government emergency financial bail outs do work but they're only a temporary bridge to help us get through the emergency then everything gets back to normal. All that is what the government is there for, it's why we "mostly, haha" agree to pay taxes. They take our tax money and then pay it back out for our general welfare. All good and normal in a free society.

But, with no tax money coming in how long can a government keep giving it back to us? If you want to use the Great Depression scenario, they can do it for 10 years but that would mean the majority of the population is barely living at a minimal subsistence level.

That's why we're all back to work sooner rather than later. Could be next month, maybe 3 months, I can't predict that. But stretch it to a year? Dunno, but I doubt it. At some point we will accept the stats and just deal with it.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
I totally understand economics is not well understood among a group of musicians.

Bob




Goodness gracious Bob. That's the most condescending remark I've ever seen posted on here.

I've been deliberately trying to lay off and let emotions die down a little on this thread but comments like that don't make it easy.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 04:19 PM
What would you call it then with some of the comments here?

"I Don't care how long it takes, I don't want to die" seems to be a fairly common sentiment. Remember I'm also in the high risk group and I don't want to die either but that doesn't matter to my point.

Anybody who can't understand the reasons why people need to be getting back to work sooner rather than later doesn't understand economics.

Good news is it's looking like this could be moot anyway. Even though the numbers in the hardest hit areas are still going up, the rate of growth is beginning to look linear rather than exponential. Even when someone says that's only due to everybody being home and not working still misses a very big point. When we all get back to work, it will not be like before this virus hit. There will be very strong sanitary measures being taken so no, I don't see the virus starting to rage through the population again.

The other thing I believe is that now that everybody is totally shocked into being so clean and sanitary the rates of infection from all the other things we are at risk from like flu, colds, bacterial and all that will be down a lot. That should offset some of the COVID 19 numbers.

And, these two comments doesn't take into account new therapies being worked on right now that can handle this thing. I'm getting fairly optimistic about this.

Bob
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 04:47 PM
I'd be interested in seeing those reports that show the spread is now linear. Looking at today's CDC data I am not seeing that.

As for "new therapies being worked on right now" this is something to hope for but nothing exists yet. The malaria drug "solution" has already killed healthy people.

We def need to remain hopeful but the problem with unwarranted optimism is that it encourages unsafe behavior that makes the problem worse.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 06:13 PM
NBC Nightly News Broadcast (Full) - March 26th, 2020 | NBC Nightly News

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC9X1k8rUA
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
NBC Nightly News Broadcast (Full) - March 26th, 2020 | NBC Nightly News

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC9X1k8rUA

It is the American Virus now. frown
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 06:22 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
And, these two comments doesn't take into account new therapies being worked on right now that can handle this thing. I'm getting fairly optimistic about this.

I hope you're right.

But the 1918 pandemic trailed off after the initial wave in spring. This created a false sense that it was over, but returned the following winter harder and stronger.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-commemoration/three-waves.htm

I agree that we'll continue to take actions to deal with things not with the best solution at hand, but with the only solution we have.

And that's likely to mean people returning to work before the level of risk is as low as many would like it to be.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 06:46 PM
Oh, I totally get that. Don't want to be all light and happiness, we definitely have to be vigilant and careful.

The linear thing I got from an interview with the head of a big NY hospital. She said in spite of the huge uptick in cases, it was slowing in the last few days to a more linear manner. Cuomo also said two days ago the number of new hospitalizations was slowing. These two reports are probably not absolutely linear but closer to that than exponential.

Maybe.

I'm probably guilty as charged in looking at these things from the positive side rather than the negative. Also, keep in mind all the stories about people who have the virus and never had symptoms or mild symptoms, never got tested so nobody knows about them. That number could dramatically skew the death rate percentage quite a bit lower. The confirmed deaths is a fixed number but the real total of cases is probably much higher than reported. Another way of positively looking at this.

Maybe.

The people who died from the malaria drug were self medicating, not under a doctors care at least from what I've read. One case was an idiot in Arizona who decided to ingest some pool cleaner because it contains the same chloroquine phosphate that the malaria drug has. Another case was in Nigeria, same thing. I just did a quick search now and that's all that popped up. Certainly it's too soon to say if that can work or not but several doctors and researchers have said it looks promising. Chloroquine is another one of those risk/reward things. Malaria is really deadly so this stuff can save your life if you don't die from the drug first. Apparently it's safe enough under a doctors supervision but unfortunately it's not for us old folks. Too risky.

Bob
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 07:13 PM
And David, since this is a music forum I hate to say this but when people return to work that won't include us. A structured, formal work environment can be well controlled but a "lets have a party!" gig or concert? Obviously not so unfortunately I'm seeing a bleak year or maybe longer of no gigs. Even Broadway shows and movies. After all this trauma, who's going to want to sit in a crowded theater with 1,500 people? It's hard enough for actors and musicians, this is so sad.

Bob
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 07:36 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
I'm seeing a bleak year or maybe longer of no gigs. Even Broadway shows and movies. After all this trauma, who's going to want to sit in a crowded theater with 1,500 people? It's hard enough for actors and musicians, this is so sad.

This is definitely going to change our culture. Certainly for a while. And maybe forever.

There are restaurants, already operating on a razor-thin budget, that will never come back. In the same way Amazon killed book stores this event could tip many retail stores out of business as more and more people become comfortable with shopping online. Same with sports as people have found other things to do with their time. And, unfortunately, same with music.

So much in our culture and economy (speaking of USA) is so completely non-essential. And so much of it is successful only because of extremely aggressive and incessant marketing to bored people who already have all of their basic needs met. I've always felt much of what we have built is a house of cards. I guess something like this can cause it all to come crashing down.
Posted By: Jim Fogle Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 09:07 PM
On a lighter note, +++ Eventide Audio +++ sent an e-mail with photos some of their employees working from home. (side note, Eventide is located near New York City which is getting hit hard). Along with photos of their employees Eventide sent this altered photo of The Beatles practicing social distancing.

Attached picture Abby Road Social Distancing.jpg
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 09:59 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
It's hard enough for actors and musicians, this is so sad.

Yes, this is really going to create a desperate financial situation for a lot of people. sick

I can't even begin to imagine what the long-term consequences are going to be.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/27/20 10:27 PM
All I have to say is this: If anyone thinks the economy is more important than their very life, go ahead, lead the way, you first.

I have self-preservation instincts. Dying for the stock market is not in my plan.

I have a decent sense of local economics. I'm self-employed. I've made a living doing music and nothing but music for most of my life. The mortgage is paid off, I've got some savings, and other than minimal car payments, I'm completely out of debt.

I've been to: 49 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), more than half the Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Austria, Australia, Russia, Japan, and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). And I'm still out of debt.

I practice something the government doesn't do, I live below my means. I don't spend money I don't have and I don't spend all the money I make.

I won't die to keep the modern robber-barons comfortable in their gilded palaces.

There are plenty of companies working on vaccines and treatments. If we can hold off long enough, many fewer people will die.

If we go the "herd immunity" plan and put everyone back to work, the death rate will skyrocket. There will be no available hospital beds, doctors will either quit or get the disease (some already have), and those doctors still on the job will have to say "You can live, but I have to sentence you, you, you, and you to death because there are too many here to treat with the resources we have available."

Every rancher knows, when one or more cows get a virus, immediately isolate them.

If it's good enough for the steers, it's good enough for me.

Again, if you want to die so the super-rich can stay super-rich, go ahead. I'll not be joining you if I can help it.

Insights, incites, and self-preservation by Notes

PS - Historically musicians have done OK in depressions. People need to escape reality.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/28/20 02:14 AM
Since when does federal assistance require adoration from governors? I guess since he's not getting his ego stroked by his cult at the rallies then someone has to fill the void.

"Trump demands appreciation from governors for coronavirus response"

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-demands-appreciation-from-governors-for-coronavirus-response-233142697.html

Whether we realize it or not, this is a very scary precedent to set. Please note that I spelled "precedent" correctly, ... unlike president cheeto when he tried to spell "precedent".
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/28/20 03:22 AM
Even though COVID-19 is spreading around the world like a it's a whirlwind, positive stories are beginning emerge that indicate we are tackling the turmoil well...

This is from Kenya.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69JyN445PyA
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/28/20 03:37 AM
This is an excellent video,

It gives a 4:44 minute overview of what's happening behind the scenes with COVID-19 in labs as scientists use technology to pursue:

(a) fast and efficient testing for it;
(b) vaccines to prevent it;
(c) medicines to treat it.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brnzLFTGkyM
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/29/20 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Since when does federal assistance require adoration from governors? I guess since he's not getting his ego stroked by his cult at the rallies then someone has to fill the void.

"Trump demands appreciation from governors for coronavirus response"

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-demands-appreciation-from-governors-for-coronavirus-response-233142697.html

Whether we realize it or not, this is a very scary precedent to set. Please note that I spelled "precedent" correctly, ... unlike president cheeto when he tried to spell "precedent".


Bob, I have to say this is just too funny. Here in SoCal probably 70% of all my musician buddies agree with you, on a gig nobody cares in the slightest what anybody's political beliefs are and I've said many times I will not allow political differences to get between me and friendship. Friends are too important.

Having said that, in the spirit of us being good musical buddies because we would be if we ever had a chance to meet and play together, your interpretation of this video is pure liberal spin. He didn't say that at all, there is no "demand" there. Look at the props he gave to Gov Cuomo who totally hates him. In spite of that I totally admire the way Cuomo is doing his daily pressers. Politically I can't stand him but during this crisis he has completely shut that rhetoric down and is doing a fabulous job of calmly and clearly communicating what's going on in New York and I give full credit to him. All of his talks are up on YouTube within hours of him doing it, they're well worth checking out.

Contrast that with the governor of Washington. Why did he go there? There's no need for that right now. If Cuomo can do it why can't he? Trump is a counter puncher he simply will not take that crap which is why his supporters love him in spite of all his obvious flaws.

Back to Cuomo, I watched him this morning and there is some good news there. He said that while the cases are obviously going up and will continue going up the rate of doubling has dramatically slowed. A week ago they doubled in 2 days, then it went down to 4 days and now as of this morning the doubling is down to 6 days. That progress.

You take care my friend and I sincerely mean that.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/29/20 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal


You take care my friend and I sincerely mean that.

Bob



Bob,

I'm glad to hear that. I consider you a friend and I do hope the best for you and your loved ones.

Take care my friend. I'm glad you got a chuckle out of my post. wink
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/29/20 06:23 PM
Those with a mathematical background might appreciate this insight.

Yesterday I found the below log-log graph analysis of COVID-19 on Youtube. It is fascinating that the virus initially tracks the same in all countries.

This graph also very clearly shows when countries are succeeding in surmounting the virus's impact.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54XLXg4fYsc
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/29/20 06:36 PM
This is a really great find. Important details explained informatively, including how the data can be evaluated and analyzed in different ways, sometime leading to misinterpreted results. Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 03:48 PM
"Trump now says if 100,000 Americans die from coronavirus he will have done 'a very good job"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-coronavirus-100000-200000-deaths-very-good-job-153353997.html


I wonder how many thousands of American lives would have been saved if he had listened to the health officials and the intelligence officials and instituted the same measures we are taking now back in January when he was warned.

100,000 - 200,000 dead Americans doesn't sound like a success to me. Most presidents know enough to realize the things they don't understand and that's why they have so many experts there to advise them.

Trump only listens to them when he realizes he has no other choice.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
"Trump now says if 100,000 Americans die from coronavirus he will have done 'a very good job"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-coronavirus-100000-200000-deaths-very-good-job-153353997.html


I wonder how many thousands of American lives would have been saved if he had listened to the health officials and the intelligence officials and instituted the same measures we are taking now back in January when he was warned.

100,000 - 200,000 dead Americans doesn't sound like a success to me. Most presidents know enough to realize the things they don't understand and that's why they have so many experts there to advise them.

Trump only listens to them when he realizes he has no other choice.





I wonder how many more would have died if he didn't stop traffic from China when he did? Remember all the liberals were calling it a racist act.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 07:26 PM
You know, arguing about politics is not going to solve this problem. All it does is create a lot of noise and distracts from the problem at hand.

While I have an opinion of Trump and his approach to the world, I'm not going to express it here because it doesn't help make the PG Music corner of the world a better place. Likewise, I'm saving my thoughts regarding Boris Johnson, Vladimir Putin, Emmanuel Macron, Xi Jinping, etc., for comments on articles in my local newspapers.

All we as individuals can do right now is to put politics aside and concentrate all energies on doing the best we possibly can to avoid circumstances that favour transmission of the virus. There's a lot of good medical advice out there and by following it, the chances of surviving COVID-19 increase greatly.

That's what I'm doing. And I want to do it with a smile on my face.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 07:38 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I wonder how many more would have died if he didn't stop traffic from China when he did? Remember all the liberals were calling it a racist act.

Trump has repeatedly claimed that Democrats have “loudly criticized and protested” his imposition of the travel restrictions, and have called the decision “racist.” But while leading Democrats have been outspoken in their criticism of the president’s overall response to the epidemic, very few have criticized his decision to impose limited travel restrictions.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
Posted By: Hugh2 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 10:52 PM
Hi Guys
Just dropping in to wish you all a safe and creative time during this crisis.Praying for Italy and Spain right now hoping for a downturn in numbers.I know Spain pretty well and the Health service is top notch and even it seems to have got over run.
Good news today on the 5-13min test kit developed by ABBOTT in the US.
Well alot of people who were saying the world was in Crisis for the last 20years now know what a real global Crisis looks like!

All the PG music fans and followers have no excuse and plenty of time to produce a record amount of music of the masterpiece variety rather than the pandemic variety hopefully,
Liam Gallagher from Osasis said (paraphrasing) that he feels that their is a great song out their for him and if he is not out their trying to find it some other songwriter will grab it first! I am not sure that this is true but just in case get out their looking!Stay safe and here is an uplifting and melencholy song all at the same tim enjoy Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REin1BuqiZk
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/30/20 10:57 PM
Well, this just keeps getting better (not).

I was curious about testing in LA County. The County has a population of about 10 million and right now the numbers are miniscule. As of noon today it's 2,474 confirmed cases and 44 deaths. The big deal though is testing so I found this article from two days ago. The guy is both an ER physician and the Medical Director of the LA County Fire Dept.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-28/introducing-l-a-s-new-coronavirus-testing-czar-can-he-improve-our-grossly-inadequate-capacity-so-far

I've read this twice now to get a good grip on what he's saying. It's very easy to say "Where's the tests", "why do other countries have all this testing?" "It's all Trumps fault", etc, etc. This is a very complex question, read what he says about this test, that test, false negatives, does a hospital have their own lab or do they send it out? A lot of moving parts here. He's not mentioning the type of test the President just talked about this afternoon from Abbot. It's also very interesting reading his explanation of why doing testing on people with no symptoms is really a waste of time which sort of coincides with what I've said already, the reported death rate is way too high. We'll never know for sure though and against that is the point about overwhelming the healthcare system. If that happens the death rate surely goes up.

Overall a good read even though I'm not thrilled with his conclusions especially considering how low the numbers are right now. It just seems inconceivable to me that we can go from 2,500 cases to some huge number in a fairly short period of time. LA is nowhere near as densely populated as NYC. Then with all the personal sanitation and social distancing going on but yeah, he's the doctor and he's on the front lines so...

To keep my sanity I keep focusing on the good news stories, Tom Hanks and his wife are fine, Prince Charles at age 71 is fine and on and on with many stories about older folks who got through this in good shape. It's a risk for sure but it's not an automatic death sentence.

Bob
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 04:14 PM
New study just released. The death rate is lower.

Coronavirus death rate lower than previously reported

It just made logical sense to me and I think further studies will lower it even more. Lots of variation by age groups though.

And an update to yesterdays story in California:

Social Distancing seems to slow the virus in CA

Sure, it's still too soon to uncork the champagne but again, in looking at the West Coast numbers it just doesn't make sense we're going to have the same ratios as NY. NY really needs all the help they can get so I hope if this holds some of our supplies and health care people can go there. It's too soon for that now but maybe that can happen.

Bob
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 05:57 PM
That's great news, Bob.

Our political leaders have also just recently said that the current signs in Australia are that all the precautions we are taking are starting to pay off.

I read about New York daily. The suffering is enormous. I sincerely hope that they 'turn the corner' sooner rather than later.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 09:42 PM
"OVER 120,000 SIGN PETITION CALLING FOR END TO LIVE COVERAGE OF TRUMP'S CORONAVIRUS BRIEFINGS"

https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-100000-sign-petition-calling-end-live-coverage-trumps-coronavirus-briefings-1495195


The best thing Trump could do for the country is get out of the way of the experts and allow them to speak without fear of retribution. It would also save a lot of time if Fauci didn't have to correct all of the lies and mis-statements the president says.

Getting Trump out of the briefings would also free up a lot of time by eliminating the backslapping and self congratulatory statements he makes about what a great job he's doing.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 10:16 PM
Bob, please knock off your political BS. Lets not start any wars here.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 10:42 PM
Bob, I keep trying to back off the politics but you keep pushing it. You just won't give it a rest. Now I feel I have to respond to a comment you made earlier about how much better off we would be if Trump had taken all these measures back in January so why didn't he do that? I didn't respond to that, I just let it go but now you do this. Again.

To answer your question, two things. first like a whole lot of us, he read the statement from WHO on January 14 saying the Chinese health authorities said they found no evidence of human to human transmission. Great, sound like it's not a big deal. I suppose you don't remember that? It wasn't just Trump, many people gave a sigh of relief.

Then, there was a second reason that sort of took up some of his time.

He was getting impeached! The biggest political spectacle is 30 flippin years!! Then the trial was in the Senate for 3 weeks. And exactly when was this? ALL of January into February. BY LAW, NO OTHER SENATE BUSINESS CAN BE CONDUCTED DURING AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL Don't you think he was slightly preoccupied? All the House had to do when it became apparent this virus could be serious was drop the impeachment farce and focus on legislation that meant something like oh I don't know, beefing up our response to a pandemic?

The Dems knew full well there would be no conviction in the Senate. Zero chance of that yet they pressed on anyway wasting everybody's time just to score political points. To even propose that question about what happened in January is just ridiculous. And now you still can't let it go, it's like every two days or so you're compelled to trash Trump again. We all know how you feel about him, just stop it.

What I said two days ago still holds, we're friends but you don't make it easy to just sit here and ignore comments like this. I try to be a turn the other cheek guy but, damn.

Bob
Posted By: BlueAttitude Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 03/31/20 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Bob, please knock off your political BS. Lets not start any wars here.


Big +1 from me, and I’m sure many others that read these posts but don’t often comment.

This is NOT the place to discuss US politics. Take it to Facebook.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 01:38 AM
I hate it when his daily briefings are timed so they pre-empt my local news. People deserve to be able to see their local news. I'd rather hear from the experts than him drone on. But I don't think a petition is gonna make a difference. The daily briefings are too good a political marketing tool to have a daily spotlight and bully pulpit when there's no longer a way to do live rallies.
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 02:07 AM
Audience and ratings are what drive what news gets covered. If there was better news then they would cover it? Truth is Trump is the news. No one is forcing CNN, MSNBC or any other of them to cover the daily briefings. They are doing it voluntarily. Does anyone wonder why? There is really not anything else for them to cover and make their money.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 04:34 AM
Keyword in my post is "LOCAL" news. My husband has a degree and spent a lifetime in broadcasting both in radio and tv. It's more complicated than that.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 05:10 AM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Bob, please knock off your political BS. Lets not start any wars here.



Mario,

I'm honestly not trying to start any wars.

I start every day by combing through aggregate news sites like the Drudge Report, Yahoo News and Google news. That gives me a fairly broad spectrum of news stories.

Some of those stories get me worked up and I respond on the only forum I actually participate in about a topic I'm very concerned about.

I apologize for offending you or anyone else. I'll try to tamp it down about things that can be considered political, but to me they're not. I get upset with any politician regardless of party affiliation when I think they are abusing the public trust.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 05:16 AM
Bob,

As usual, you make some good points but in the spirit of toning things down here I won't be debating them with you.

I think we both want the same thing for our country.

A return to normalcy with news stories about mundane things would be fantastic.

Take care.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 05:19 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Then, there was a second reason that sort of took up some of his time.

He was getting impeached!

He found time to do 5 political rallies in January and at least 4 golf trips in Jan/Feb! Weeks after his impeachment trial ended, Trump in a February 26 press briefing said that the number of coronavirus cases in the US would be "close to zero" in a "couple of days." Had he acted sooner many lives would have been saved. But he, and his cult, always just blame someone else for everything.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 06:45 AM
John,

A great big plus one. Great points.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
....................

I apologize for offending you or anyone else. I'll try to tamp it down about things that can be considered political, but to me they're not. I get upset with any politician regardless of party affiliation when I think they are abusing the public trust.


Thank you for that.

I added the bold part because I feel the same way. The problem that I have, and maybe yourself, is that I think most of the people in congress are abusing the public trust. That is why their ratings are below telemarketers.
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 12:37 PM
Where I live our LOCAL NEWS is on cable all day long, sort of continually runs, so anyone can watch it anytime or many times daily. I think it's that way in most areas which is good.
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
He was getting impeached! The biggest political spectacle is 30 flippin years!! Then the trial was in the Senate for 3 weeks. And exactly when was this? ALL of January into February. BY LAW, NO OTHER SENATE BUSINESS CAN BE CONDUCTED DURING AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL Don't you think he was slightly preoccupied?

Most actions on the POTUS' part don't require Senate action.

For example, Trump's "travel ban" to China was enacted on December 31, during the time you said he couldn't take any action.

The House was holding hearings on the Coronavirus at the time. Here's Ron Klain at House subcommittee hearing on February 5th talking about the "ban":

“There’s no restriction on Americans going back and forth,” Klain said. “There are warnings. People should abide by those warnings. But today, 30 planes will land in Los Angeles that either originated in Beijing or came here on one-stops, 30 in San Francisco, 25 in New York City. Okay? So, unless we think that the color of the passport someone carries is a meaningful public health restriction, we have not placed a meaningful public health restriction.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/

Quote:
All the House had to do when it became apparent this virus could be serious was drop the impeachment farce and focus on legislation that meant something like oh I don't know, beefing up our response to a pandemic?

Congress and the public health community had been urgently asking Trump for weeks to submit a request for emergency funds.

He finally did so on March 24th, asking $1.25 billion in new funding, with flexibility to take additional $1 billion from existing funds like medical research, Head Start, Ebola vaccine funding and the like.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/24/trump-coronavirus-budget-request-117275
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 05:03 PM
Please don't bring the impeachment into the COVID thread.

He admitted he was guilty, the GOP admitted he was guilty and acquitted him anyway.

The US and S.Korea got their first case on the same day. S.Korea immediately went into action while Trump denied or minimized it for 6 weeks while the legislators dumped their stocks.

6 weeks translates to many additional deaths.

It seems Trump and "our" representatives put their personal interests ahead of the country's best interests.

And since Trump is the captain of the ship, he gets the blame for the 6 week delay.

BTW I'm a +50 year registered Independent, I have voted both sides of the aisle, I'm nobody's fan-boy, and I reserve the right to criticize both parties and whoever screws up. We screwed this one up and it's costing precious lives.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
I have voted both sides of the aisle, I'm nobody's fan-boy, and I reserve the right to criticize both parties and whoever screws up. We screwed this one up and it's costing precious lives.

Well said! I too have voted both sides in elections from dogcatcher to president. And I always criticize based on performance and not on politics! An honest person should be willing to admit their screw-ups!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 06:52 PM
Now that we've saved the world from the politicians, I'll lighten things up by describing my day so far. I log into the office remotely to do taxes for clients. The last two days the internet has been very slow and it's a real pain to navigate the tax program. Not only do I get freezups I get kicked off as well so I have to log in again. I gave up trying to talk to a client on the phone and use the program to review everything with them. Probably half the country is sitting home bored or working like I am and it's choking the internet. I decided to take a break and try it again later. Sooo... I've been completely mopping my kitchen floor with soap, then rinsing in the sink and gradually pulling the soap off with fresh water. I live alone and the kitchen is larger than what I need so this is a real chore. More information than anybody needs but hey, that's my day.

Are we all going crazy yet? I also need to tune my piano and that's a real pain too. I'm not a pro tuner but I've had a few lessons and I can do a serviceable job but man, am I slooow.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 07:24 PM
Bob,

I'm not going crazy just yet. I'm cooking stuffing and BBQ chicken wings.

They're starting to smell really good about now.

I'm glad things are going a little better for folks around L.A.

My new guitar should arrive tomorrow. Can't wait to get my hands on that one.
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 08:31 PM
Following Bob's train of thought...

This afternoon I helped set my Dad up to use Zoom, so he can Zoom with his siblings. He's using my Widget microphone, so all I need to do is find him a webcam.

Easy, huh? It's not like I'm looking for toilet paper.

Everyone in my household already has a computer with a built-in camera so they can Zoom their classwork. So I guess I didn't notice there had been a run on webcams.

There's nothing affordable on the local Craigslist.

Our local Target is still open, so I checked their website. They haven't got any webcams that sell for less than $400.

I had a look at the Best Buy website, and everything affordable there is sold out as well. But the brick-and-mortar store is closed, so that's sort of moot.

Fry's hasn't got any webcams, but then, they're pretty much a shell of what they used to be.

The local OfficeMax does curbside pickup, but the only webcams not listed "Out of Stock" turn out to be "For Future Pickup", which seems to be a distinction without a difference.

There are a number on Amazon, but they have reviews like "Didn't work" and "Worst webcam I ever owned.". Since some of those date back to 2008, I'm sure they work even better on Windows 10! wink

This isn't really a complaint, as much as it's an observation how fragile the supply chain can be.

Edit: Looks like I may be able to find a digital camera and make that work instead. smile

Anyway, I've got to imagine there's a huge load on the interwebs these days.

Makes my glad I'm not a network admin!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 08:42 PM
About LA and CA. The numbers have been pretty low compared to the rest of the country. Well, that's about to change I think. Watching CNBC earlier and I found out there are over 59,000 test kits that had to be sent out to labs over the last several days and it will take a few more days to get the results back. Hmmmm...

OTOH, there's more articles about how the fatality rate is lower then they initially thought.

I sure you will enjoy that new guitar Bob. New toys are always fun!

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal


I sure you will enjoy that new guitar Bob. New toys are always fun!

Bob



Bob,

Especially if they get your mind off death and destruction, even if only for a little while!

wink
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 09:09 PM
https://www.inquirer.com/news/coronavirus-musicians-john-prine-jackson-browne-joe-diffie-20200330.html?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

The Philadephia Inquirer just ran an article on How Hard the Corona Virus is hitting the Music World and a list of those who have died recently.

They say John Prine is starting to recover, so we wish him well, but his wife has it.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 09:43 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
I have voted both sides of the aisle, I'm nobody's fan-boy, and I reserve the right to criticize both parties and whoever screws up. We screwed this one up and it's costing precious lives.

Well said! I too have voted both sides in elections from dogcatcher to president. And I always criticize based on performance and not on politics! An honest person should be willing to admit their screw-ups!


Me too. Staunch independent and have voted both sides of the aisle.

Beside music. My next project is getting out the sewing machine and sewing some homemade masks. I'm no great seamstress but what the heck. It seems the new advice is to wear something over your face when you go out in case you have it and don't know it so you won't spread as much. But they don't want people getting the real n95's or the hospital surgical masks because the docs and nurses really need those. I reckon anything that offers a modicum of protection is better than nothing. Infections in my parish jumped to 90 today. Only one death so far thank God.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 10:07 PM
Great idea! It's not only stopping you from infecting someone else, it's also wearing a mask helps you to remember to not touch your face. On another forum a guy said he was wearing his motorcycle helmet when shopping. That'll stop him from touching his face...

Post a pic of what you come up with, I think we would all like to see it.

Bob
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/01/20 11:44 PM
Hi Sundance,

I'm with you. I think that wearing any kind of mask is better than wearing none. As Bob says, it's good protection against touching your face. Our doctors are also saying that it helps reduce contamination of others if you have the virus and don't know about it.

Here in Australia, a number of our medical professionals (pharmacists in particular) are being treated really aggressively by some people. I don't get that. As I see it, like with the N95 masks you mention, we have to do everything we can to help our medics stay safe. Without them, getting through this contagion becomes much much harder.

You mentioned 'sewing' so this might interest you. I saw it on our news last night.

The below young guy is from Tasmania (my home state). He makes bears for sick children and now he's using COVID-19 isolation in a positive and productive way....



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9ErhrjAG8

I hope things are progressing as well as possible for you and yours.

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 12:18 AM
Noel that is such a sweet video and he's talented at making those bears. I'll be happy if our masks I make (ones for me and my husband) are wearable! LOL!. I'm so happy you are okay. My husband and I staying in as much as possible other than to venture into our own yard and when forced to go to the grocery.

I had to go take labs and they wouldn't let me cancel a doc visit. That was nerve wracking and unnecessary under the circumstances. But the new nurse practitioner refused to write my prescriptions (which have been the same for over a year) unless I came in person even though I've been seeing my regular doc who's out sick and she's filling in for - I've been seeing him for several years. So at the moment I'm pretty down on nurse practitioners at least this fresh out of school one. Maybe I just got a clueless jerk. So I hit the sanitizer every chance I got while I was at the lab and at the doc office and in my car and washed and changed as soon as I got home. Thank goodness it's been 14 days and I have no symptoms. Hope that wasn't too much info. I've missed you.

Josie
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 12:20 AM
Originally Posted By: dcuny
This afternoon I helped set my Dad up to use Zoom, so he can Zoom with his siblings. He's using my Widget microphone, so all I need to do is find him a webcam.

David, do you know if Zoom allows screen sharing? I need to conduct a training session next week and don't want video but I'd like to have my screen shared and audio both directions. I can do the audio over the phone if necessary.

Quote:
Fry's hasn't got any webcams, but then, they're pretty much a shell of what they used to be.

Ahhh, Fry's Electronics! I used to shop at their very first store in Sunnyvale, CA in the mid-80s! Geeks like me were over the moon at the idea of a store where we could buy electronics parts, C compilers and snacks all in one location!! Almost as cool as the West Coast Computer Faire!
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 12:44 AM
John,

I pass this on in case it's useful... I've been using Microsoft Teams for my online school teaching and it allows me to share my screen(s) in realtime with students.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 12:53 AM
Hi Josie,

Not too much information at all.

Your nurse practitioner sounds like they were just making unnecessary work for themselves. If it makes you feel any better, I'm like you. When I go out where people are, which is rare, I sanitise my hands every opportunity, keep the 6 feet or so distance between people and am very mindful of everything I touch.

When I get home, it's wash and change, also. I'm aiming to hang around on Earth a while yet so I'm doing all I can to keep covid-19 at bay.

I saw a woman yesterday who was wearing rubber gloves. I haven't gone that far yet because I don't have any open wounds on my hand. Fortunately the virus doesn't penetrate skin. If I had a cut on my hand, though, I'd definitely get out the latex gloves!

Where safety is concerned, it's much better to err on the side of caution, I think.

It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.

Noel
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 01:04 AM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
David, do you know if Zoom allows screen sharing? I need to conduct a training session next week and don't want video but I'd like to have my screen shared and audio both directions. I can do the audio over the phone if necessary.

My kids - who use it for school - assure me that you can share the screen. smile
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 02:58 AM
I'm using zoom to teach my school kids. You can share your screen, see all the people at the same time or not (Top right corner). It's great. Also they've taken away the 40 min limit on the free version for the time being - at least in Hong Kong. Be warned that there have been articles about security. People taking over webcams and kids recording lessons, and spreading them on the web and basically being little [*****]. Just so you're aware. You can record your lessons to cover yourself anyway. Some of my colleagues don't show their face or home on webcam to be covered.

As for a webcam. I reckon it's of limited interest to older people. Just a lot of trouble. They seem quite happy with audio and it's a lot less bandwidth.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 04:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
John,

I pass this on in case it's useful... I've been using Microsoft Teams for my online school teaching and it allows me to share my screen(s) in realtime with students.

Regards,
Noel

Thanks Noel!!
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 04:41 AM
Originally Posted By: dcuny
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
David, do you know if Zoom allows screen sharing? I need to conduct a training session next week and don't want video but I'd like to have my screen shared and audio both directions. I can do the audio over the phone if necessary.

My kids - who use it for school - assure me that you can share the screen. smile

Thanks David! And, thanks to your kids!!
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 04:41 AM
Originally Posted By: lambada
I'm using zoom to teach my school kids. You can share your screen, see all the people at the same time or not (Top right corner). It's great. Also they've taken away the 40 min limit on the free version for the time being - at least in Hong Kong. Be warned that there have been articles about security. People taking over webcams and kids recording lessons, and spreading them on the web and basically being little [*****]. Just so you're aware. You can record your lessons to cover yourself anyway. Some of my colleagues don't show their face or home on webcam to be covered.

As for a webcam. I reckon it's of limited interest to older people. Just a lot of trouble. They seem quite happy with audio and it's a lot less bandwidth.

Thank you lambada! I heard something about security concerns too.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 09:39 AM
Am I going crazy yet?

Nope.

Leilani and I get along so well that 24/7/365 isn't too much time to spent together. In fact, it isn't enough.

We're making new style and fake 'disks' for Band-in-a-Box, and when we aren't doing that, we're spending quality time together.

Yesterday I left my house for the first time in over a week. We went grocery shopping for perishables. It's like living in a Sci-Fi movie. The enemy is invisible and could be anywhere (cue theremin music).

People wearing masks, keeping their distance, wearing mostly blue or purple gloves, spraying shopping carts, looking at each other with suspicious eyes, greeting cashiers behind plexiglass screens, blue tape on the floor where the lines are spaced 6' apart, and so on.

Needing gas for the car, I brought a disposable nitrile glove, touched everything with only that hand, and disposed of it before getting back in the car.

All this just seems eerie to me.

Following advice I brought a small spray bottle filled with 70% alcohol. Sprayed everything including my credit card when I took it out of the reader. We sterilized our hands before touching the car, washed them many times during the trip and first thing when we entered the house.

We unpacked everything outdoors, rubbed down with either diluted bleach/water or alcohol before bringing the groceries in the house. We stripped to our underwear and hung the grocery bags and our clothes on the clothesline (we have privacy in our back yard). We left our shoes outside as well (that part is normal practice for us).

Paranoid? No. We just decided that since some people who recover have diminished lung functionality, and since we make our living with our lungs (voice, sax, flute, wind synth) it's best to err on the side of caution.

The governor put us on a "stay at home" order today, but I've been doing that for weeks already. Since all my gigs have been cancelled, I call it "Economic Isolation" wink

I probably won't have to leave my little half-acre in paradise for another couple of weeks.

Funny result. Every day I walk up and down our dead-end street for a total of 4 miles. Getting in the car and driving down the road at 35mph seemed like I was traveling at light speed in comparison (that wore off in a mile or so).

I do hope everyone is being cautious and that none of my BiaB buddies will catch the plague.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 09:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
It's like living in a Sci-Fi movie.

I had exactly the same thought tonight as I was driving to get some takeaway food. As you say, it's very eerie right now.

I agree with you... it's much better to overly cautious than not cautious enough.

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 11:09 AM
Using Webex, Zoom, and Micro$oft Teams on my work from home as an IT person in the Stock Market/Finance industry. Webex started slowing down as soon as the virus had people switching to home. Most of us migrated to Zoom when that happened and it's been holding up well considering the large amount of users in both business and education now.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 03:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Hi Josie,

Not too much information at all.

Your nurse practitioner sounds like they were just making unnecessary work for themselves. If it makes you feel any better, I'm like you. When I go out where people are, which is rare, I sanitise my hands every opportunity, keep the 6 feet or so distance between people and am very mindful of everything I touch.

When I get home, it's wash and change, also. I'm aiming to hang around on Earth a while yet so I'm doing all I can to keep covid-19 at bay.

I saw a woman yesterday who was wearing rubber gloves. I haven't gone that far yet because I don't have any open wounds on my hand. Fortunately the virus doesn't penetrate skin. If I had a cut on my hand, though, I'd definitely get out the latex gloves!

Where safety is concerned, it's much better to err on the side of caution, I think.

It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.

Noel

It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.

[Quote ]It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.[/quote]

You are dearly loved 'round these here parts, Josie. We need your logical mind during this unprecedented crisis.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 04:40 PM
I just got back from Walmart and it was a strange but unsurprising experience.

They had the entrance roped off with caution tape and a line formed with people 6 ft. apart heading into the store. They would only let people enter one at a time. You had to wait one minute so the person could get far enough ahead of you to keep the social distancing.

You were met inside by an employee with gloves on and he would give you a buggy. Each buggy was washed and disinfected after each use. I've got to say that was the cleanest buggy I've ever used at a grocery store.

They still didn't have any hand sanitizer, alcohol, disinfectant wipes or toilet paper. Even the items they did have were rationed. The meat section was about 20% of what it usually is.

Welcome to the new normal. The checkout lady asked how I was and I said "I'm socially distant, but that's nothing new." At least I gave her a little laugh.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 04:58 PM
Here's a good easy to read short article on NPR about Covid 19. NO POLITICS. Just good info without all of the techno babble.


"5 Key Facts Not Explained In White House COVID-19 Projections"

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/01/824744490/5-key-facts-the-white-house-isnt-saying-about-their-covid-19-projections
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 05:07 PM
Haha, good one Bob. It's been the same for me too. I left LA 8 days ago and did pretty much the exact same things all you guys are describing. Lots of wipes, sanitizer, paper towels. No mask or gloves though. I haven't needed to go shopping again yet but I will in a few more days, maybe next Monday. I really think with all the precautions everybody is taking plus smaller crowds everywhere the chances of catching anything is really low but I certainly haven't been walking around assuming that. Oh no, I'm as paranoid as all of us here. None of us want to get this until there is good medicine available to handle it. If this subsides to no worse than a bad cold or flu, fine I can live with that. I agree with Notes, lung damage or even dying is certainly a concern so we need some good drugs that stops it from getting that far. I'm seeing more and more stories about research that sounds promising but it's not there yet. Once that happens we can start getting back to normal.

As a gigging musician though not full time, I fear the entire summer season is pretty much over. I have a recurring gig at the Catalina Yacht Club every 4th of July but that involves taking a very crowded boat to the island and then there are big cruise ships that anchor a few hundred yards out and hundreds if not thousands take water taxi's into Avalon. That gig has always included 2 or 3 smaller gigs around town and I'll make $600-700 for the week and stay with a friend. Last year I was there 5 days. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen this year.

Bob
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: bobflatpicker
The checkout lady asked how I was and I said "I'm socially distant, but that's nothing new."

Thanks for the laugh, Bob! I wish that I could think of witty things like this.

All the best,
Noel
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 07:07 PM
Here's a very interesting article I just found. It's about what I've been discussing with friends the "California Mystery". We get over 1 million visitors from China per year and it's been going for many years. There is still no huge spike in cases.

This is a fairly detailed article quoting many health professionals and the main point I get from it is the notion that COVID 19 was actually spreading starting last fall. He quotes Italian sources about that. This goes to the point that China has been lying to us all along not only about their true numbers of cases but when it actually started. No proof yet but very interesting none the less.

The California Herd

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 07:10 PM
I’m listening to today’s installment of the White House COVID 19 press conference and the Treasury Secretary said that the SBA loans will be loans that turn into grants. He specifically pointed out that the loans were also available to businesses that are sole proprietorships. I assume that includes musicians.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 07:38 PM
FEMA ordered 100,000 body bags today.
Posted By: rharv Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 07:42 PM
For those using Zoom
They said today, that they (Zoom) had fixed the Windows security vulnerability that was the biggest concern.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/04/unpatched-zoom-bug-lets-attackers-steal-windows-credentials-with-no-warning/

Getting Zoom Bombed may not be totally eliminated, but at least they are going to focus on security for a bit longer, according to the article.
That hole in the article was pretty major, but hopefully the report is true.

Having your meeting disrupted (even if it's embarrassing) is much less of a problem than a compromised computer.
If you have used Zoom in the last few days, may want to run a scan just to be sure you're clean.
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 08:40 PM
It looks like the CDC is reconsidering the advice to not wear masks in public:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52126183

The goal isn't to prevent the wearer from getting COVID-19. Rather, the goal is to help reduce transmission from asymptomatic carriers. Someone infected with the Coronavirus may not present symptoms for up to 14 days. During that time, they could be unknowingly infecting other people.

But there are a number of reasons for suggesting not wearing masks in public:

  • Prevent hoarding medical-grade masks needed by health professionals;
  • Not much medical evidence to show that it's effective;
  • May cause people to feel safe so they don't take other actions, like cleaning hands

But given how widespread the disease is, even methods that may have relatively small levels of effectiveness are worth reconsidering.
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 09:07 PM
My son lives in Sweden where they are taking a more reserved approach to the virus. People are still working and going out to gatherings of less than 50 people. They are not having large increases in the virus. Actually my son did get it and had a fever, fatigue and body aches. No lung issues, didn't go to the hospital or need a ventilator. I do understand that the elderly or people with underlying health issues might need hospitalization as with any bad flu.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/02/20 10:16 PM
Keith,

I stumbled upon a site that showed thousands of fiberglass caskets and that was months ago. Does someone know something they're not telling?
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 02:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton


....Yesterday I left my house for the first time in over a week. We went grocery shopping for perishables. It's like living in a Sci-Fi movie. The enemy is invisible and could be anywhere (cue theremin music).

People wearing masks, keeping their distance, wearing mostly blue or purple gloves, spraying shopping carts, looking at each other with suspicious eyes.....

Insights and incites by Notes


So true and the way you tell it is so descriptive. I heard somewhere that hospital workers are calling the virus "the beast".
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 03:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Hi Josie,

Not too much information at all.

Your nurse practitioner sounds like they were just making unnecessary work for themselves. If it makes you feel any better, I'm like you. When I go out where people are, which is rare, I sanitise my hands every opportunity, keep the 6 feet or so distance between people and am very mindful of everything I touch.

When I get home, it's wash and change, also. I'm aiming to hang around on Earth a while yet so I'm doing all I can to keep covid-19 at bay.

I saw a woman yesterday who was wearing rubber gloves. I haven't gone that far yet because I don't have any open wounds on my hand. Fortunately the virus doesn't penetrate skin. If I had a cut on my hand, though, I'd definitely get out the latex gloves!

Where safety is concerned, it's much better to err on the side of caution, I think.

It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.

Noel

It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.

[Quote ]It's great to see you in the forums, again! It's not the same when you're not here.


You are dearly loved 'round these here parts, Josie. We need your logical mind during this unprecedented crisis.
[/quote]

Virtual hugs to you Don. I don't know how logical but I'm hooked on dark chocolate m&m's. It seems the crisis has brought out an intense need for chocolate. Stay safe.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 03:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
My son lives in Sweden where they are taking a more reserved approach to the virus. People are still working and going out to gatherings of less than 50 people. They are not having large increases in the virus. Actually my son did get it and had a fever, fatigue and body aches. No lung issues, didn't go to the hospital or need a ventilator. I do understand that the elderly or people with underlying health issues might need hospitalization as with any bad flu.


Lucky he was able to get tested and you are blessed he got through it with no serious complications. That must be a great relief to you. Maybe his antibodies can help us all someday with a vaccine.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 05:04 AM
This series of videos seems most appropriate in these times of coronavirus, 2019-nCoV.

On May 8 in 2007, 90-something year old cook and great grandmother, Clara, created a Youtube channel dedicated to teaching people recipes and meals from the Great Depression.

Learn how to make simple, yet delicious dishes while listening to stories from the Great Depression.



Clara passed away on Nov 29 in 2013 at 98 years old. Her legacy remains on Youtube.

Here's the link to all her videos...
https://www.youtube.com/user/DepressionCooking

The internet really is quite an amazing place!

Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 05:40 AM
I lost 2 friends yesterday to the virus. Know 6 more that are sick.

Your mileage will vary with this virus. Don't underestimate it.

...Deb
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 06:26 AM
Dear Deb,

I offer my sincere condolences. I was saddened to read this. I sincerely hope that your two late friends are now resting peacefully and that your sick friends pull through.

My heartfelt sympathy,
Noel
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 06:55 AM
This is marvelous, Noel. I've watched Clara before and unfortunately forgotten about the skills she brought to more modern day living.

Wonderful people like her can give us great encouragement. There have been tough times before, and lessons in humility and resilience like she has delivered can help us all.

Trev
Posted By: BlueAttitude Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 08:44 AM
The big story here (Ontario) is an outbreak in a nursing home just a little north of us.

It's a 65 bed facility, so far 17 have died due to the virus.

My mother, aged 93, is also in a home but so far it has remained virus free.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 08:54 AM
Dave,

I hope the best for your mother and also for you.
Posted By: BlueAttitude Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 09:19 AM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Dave,

I hope the best for your mother and also for you.


Thank you, Bob smile
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 10:51 AM
Good Luck Dave! A lot of folks here in the U.S. that have the means, are bringing some of their nursing home relatives home to try and avoid having them get the virus. Seems to me like a lot of nursing homes need to update their cleanliness standards.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 11:35 AM
Dave,

I live in a 100-bed nursing home and fear staff incompetence, at every level of management, far more than the virus.

The "Peter Principle" is much in evidence here where the staff has been promoted to their "highest level of incompetence, and then remain there."

The staff is currently wearing masks and going through health checks before being allowed in. If the virus should get in, we're all doomed!

When Mickey D's and Walmarts are paying more than nurse aides earn while having no lives in their care, the healthcare industry gets the dregs. Many of this staff wouldn't qualify for McDs.

( Vent over )
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 11:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
Keith,

I stumbled upon a site that showed thousands of fiberglass caskets and that was months ago. Does someone know something they're not telling?


Don, I wouldn’t be too concerned about that website. If it’s what I’m thinking of, that is from an old anti-Obama conspiracy theory that claimed that plastic coffins were ordered for FEMA internment camps. The mention of the body bag order came up during yesterday’s White House press conference.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 12:05 PM
Originally Posted By: sslechta
Good Luck Dave! A lot of folks here in the U.S. that have the means, are bringing some of their nursing home relatives home to try and avoid having them get the virus. Seems to me like a lot of nursing homes need to update their cleanliness standards.


History shows me that every dime that management can trim from the budget is not returned to the patients but is given to the senior management staff in the form of bonuses. Obv, there is no rush to correct the situation. The entertainment budget has been slashed to zero and they are "slow pay" to Danny so he doesn't play here anymore unless they pay upfront. He hasn't played here for several months.

On the cleanliness point; they have laid off several housekeepers and expect the aides to pick up the slack without a resultant impact on quality of care.
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 12:28 PM
Thank you. It makes a big difference when you put a person to a number. Deaths: 6069 on TV right now. One of those are Tom; the other one is George.

...Deb
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 02:33 PM
Originally Posted By: KeithS
I’m listening to today’s installment of the White House COVID 19 press conference and the Treasury Secretary said that the SBA loans will be loans that turn into grants. He specifically pointed out that the loans were also available to businesses that are sole proprietorships. I assume that includes musicians.


It does but the loans are for keeping employees on the books for 8 weeks. The full name is the Paycheck Protection Program. If they do that the loans are forgiven but few musicians have employees.

Bob
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 05:49 PM
Thanks Josie for the good wishes. Glad he's okay and so far his girlfriend didn't get it. Maybe in the future they'll have more of the blood plasma treatment and a vaccine so that we don't have to go through this again.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 07:25 PM
Originally Posted By: DSM
I lost 2 friends yesterday to the virus. Know 6 more that are sick.

Your mileage will vary with this virus. Don't underestimate it.

Originally Posted By: DSM
Thank you. It makes a big difference when you put a person to a number. Deaths: 6069 on TV right now. One of those are Tom; the other one is George.

...Deb


Hi Deb,

It certainly does make a difference when this virus strikes close to home. So far for me, touch wood, no-one I know has had close-range contact with COVID-19. I hope it stays that way but it probably won't.

Were Tom and George caught up in the virus's assault on New York?

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/03/20 09:46 PM
The horizon seems to be glowing dimly with a bit of hope at last...

A Melbourne (Australia) university has just had a breakthrough with COVID-19.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8186287/Monash-University-scientists-anti-parasite-Ivermectin-kill-COVID-19-cells-two-days.html

https://www.medianet.com.au/releases/186067/

Hopefully this is the beginning of overcoming this pandemic.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: DebMurphy Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 07:00 AM
Warren OH - 53 miles from Cleveland OH or Pittsburgh PA. (Just depends on which direction you want to go.)

...Deb
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 10:51 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal


It does but the loans are for keeping employees on the books for 8 weeks. The full name is the Paycheck Protection Program. If they do that the loans are forgiven but few musicians have employees.

Bob


The reason I mentioned this is that the Treasury Secretary said that people like Barbers and Plumbers who work for themselves are eligible. Those don’t sound like people with employees.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 03:09 PM
I just checked into this further and you are correct Keith and thanks for bringing that up. Everything I had seen or heard was about businesses with employees. I just watched this vid done by a CPA and he's explaining it fairly well. Still somewhat confusing but stick with it. I will also post this in my tax thread.



Right now the application process has been delayed for a week. This is brand new and note near the end he says it's not clear if this is based on the gross or net. I have not had the time to dig into this myself so I'm not saying this is absolutely correct but as far as the basic question, yes Sch C people can get this. And since I am one of those for my tax business I'll be looking into this as well.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 03:18 PM
Keith S,

I found one new 3M Cool Flow N95 Pro 8511 respirator in my tool box. I tried to give it to my son but he wouldn't take it. So we agreed that whoever takes it should be the only one who goes out to the store.

My question is, how reusable is it? I know we can't share.

Your thoughts please. I started to send this to you in a message but I thought your answer might be helpful to others.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 04:17 PM
Bob, according to this

https://www.livescience.com/sanitizing-medical-masks-for-reuse-coronavirus.html

"70 C / 158 F heating in a kitchen-type of oven for 30 min, or hot water vapor from boiling water for 10 min, are additional effective decontamination methods."
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 04:30 PM
Mario,

Thanks for the tip. I never thought we would ever be in this kind of situation.

Take care of yourself and your loved ones.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Mario,

Thanks for the tip. I never thought we would ever be in this kind of situation.

Take care of yourself and your loved ones.


Same to you my friend.
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 05:46 PM
I guess it's official - they have distributed surgical masks to all of us this morning.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 05:55 PM
Wonderful news Don!
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/04/20 08:32 PM
Yes, very good news.

Stay safe good buddy.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 04:15 PM
I thought this is a humorous and easily understood way to advise Floridians of social distancing;

"A Florida county is reminding people to maintain a distance of at least one alligator between each other"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/us/social-distancing-florida-alligator-trnd/index.html
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 05:05 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
I thought this is a humorous and easily understood way to advise Floridians of social distancing;

"A Florida county is reminding people to maintain a distance of at least one alligator between each other"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/us/social-distancing-florida-alligator-trnd/index.html



Now that is very clever. A lot of people around here are not practicing social distancing. Stores are starting to limit the number of people they will allow in them. That is a good idea.

When will people learn?
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 05:43 PM
Here's a very interesting vid from a lady with a PhD and she raises some very good points:



One thing bothers me though and it's when she said "If all these people had COVID 19 last winter, we know some would have been hospitalized and some would have died. Where's the bodies?" Exactly the question I posed about California in this thread March 14, three weeks ago. I just checked to find out where did the most Chinese visitors land in the US. Here's the answer:

China recorded an all-time high 1.2 million visitors, making Los Angeles the number one ranked U.S. city for Chinese travelers (6.9 percent increase, the largest net gain among all international markets).

This is exactly what that article posted earlier in this thread said. If this is so contagious and LAX is incredibly crowded in the international arrivals area, where were the bodies? I go to Mexico one to two times a year and I have been stuck in arrivals occasionally for TWO HOURS because a 747 or A380 dumped 400-500 passengers in front of me just before I got to Customs. If there was any virus running around there January-March which is peak travel to Mexican resorts, LA should have been swamped with cases. People say, well we didn't know because nobody got tested. Fine, but my point then and still is now and it's exactly what she just said, were were the bodies? People that sick would have gone to the ER's, been admitted and some would have died. To simply prorate the Chinese visitor numbers equally 1.2 million is 100,000 a month so that's thousands of Chinese visitors in January until travel was closed just through LAX alone. If you go back to November then it's about 300,000. LA should have predated New York, not be following it.

I don't know just what to make of this. On the one hand the prior article quotes Italian and other sources suspecting the virus was in fact around last fall but this lady makes a pretty good point that didn't happen by saying "where's the bodies?" In CA with all the Chinese visitors, same question. LA County with 10 million people as of yesterday has 5,277 cases. They have been going up and many thousands of test kits are waiting for the lab work so that number is surely going up. But, we're talking 10 million people, those numbers are tiny even if they jump to 50,000. My friends and myself have been calling it the California Mystery. We really should have been leading the country in cases with 100,000 visitors just through LAX and about 180,000 monthly to CA as a whole.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 06:37 PM
Bob,

You've obviously put a lot more thought into this than I have so bear with me on this.

The first thing that comes to me is how dense is the population of the city of LA vs NY City?

Based on Bing numbers:

Los Angeles
4.06 million by 1st July of 2020
Land Area: 468.67 square miles
8,662 people per sq. mi.

New York City
8.54 million (2016)
Land Area: 468.90 square miles
18,212 people per sq. mi.

The people in NY are packed in there like rats so the chance for infection is much greater. Even though the streets look empty supposedly the subways are still packed.

If I missed your point, (besides where are the bodies ?), then I guess I did all of that "cyphering" for nothing. LOL

I hope your numbers stay lower than expected.

Take care.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 07:40 PM
I get it, the density was the first thing I thought too. Still, international arrivals at LAX is comparable to a NY subway at rush hour, you're standing shoulder to shoulder with 400 of your closest friends, it's like waiting in line at Space Mountain. LAX is right up there as one of the busiest airports in the world. New York City at 8 million people has 122K cases and LA County with 10 million has 5,200? That just doesn't make any sense to me but we'll all find out soon enough.

To be clear though, this is just an intellectual exercise, I'm just as paranoid as anybody here in this forum. Clean, clean and more clean. My grandmother must be smiling down on me, her house was spotless while mine was surely not but it's a whole lot better now I'll tell you. It's supposed to be pouring down rain soon and last four days. I need to do some shopping so I'm thinking of going tomorrow, maybe less people. Funny how our minds work now.

Bob
Posted By: Don Gaynor Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 08:20 PM
And, speaking of subways while striving to keep this light...

It was two AM and Michael O'Reilly had just closed Murphy's Pub and was unsteadily wending his way to the underground escalator when suddenly confronted by a huge sign: "Dogs must be carried on the escalator! ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS!"

Michael bemoaned: "And just where, pray tell, is a bloke t'be findin' a dog at this unholy hour?"
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/05/20 09:31 PM
Bob, I have read where the sun and higher temperatures can kill or at least cause fewer problems. Could it be the in CA the sun shines a lot and it is warn there? Here in NY it is gray most of the time and colder, in fact where I am it has been gray for three days and the temperature never got over 55°F.

Just a guess on my part.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 04:16 AM
I know, so many plausible guesses, so few hard facts. Here's a quote from a new article I just now read and it's exactly on point to what I wrote earlier today:

About 430,000 people have flown on direct flights from China to the United States since Chinese officials first disclosed the outbreak of what is now the novel coronavirus to world health officials on New Year’s Eve, according to a new report published Saturday.

Most of the travelers flew into airports in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Newark and Detroit in January. Thousands came directly from the city of Wuhan in the Chinese Hubei province, where the coronavirus originated, the New York Times reported.


If this is as contagious as everybody says it explains all these areas mentioned except California. An unusual glut of deaths in CA would not have gone unnoticed. Maybe it is the sun although it's been a 50/50 combination of sunny and cloudy/rainy the last few weeks.

I sure hope we get a handle on this fairly soon, the idea if this being the new normal for a year or more is simply intolerable. For one thing, we all gonna start looking like Grizzly Adams. Although you already do Mario, haha.

Bob
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 04:56 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
... For one thing, we all gonna start looking like Grizzly Adams. Although you already do Mario, haha.

Well, that did give me something to chuckle about...
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 05:42 AM
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
... For one thing, we all gonna start looking like Grizzly Adams. Although you already do Mario, haha.

Well, that did give me something to chuckle about...

Mario, I'm sorry!!! Seriously I am and I sincerely apologise. I chuckled a bit, too, when I read Bob's post. It took me by surprise.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
....................

I sure hope we get a handle on this fairly soon, the idea if this being the new normal for a year or more is simply intolerable. For one thing, we all gonna start looking like Grizzly Adams. Although you already do Mario, haha.

Bob


That's a good one.

I think I just blow my warm weather theory out the window as I just saw on the news that New Orleans may be the next epic center. I know they are warm and humid.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 01:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
... For one thing, we all gonna start looking like Grizzly Adams. Although you already do Mario, haha.

Well, that did give me something to chuckle about...

Mario, I'm sorry!!! Seriously I am and I sincerely apologise. I chuckled a bit, too, when I read Bob's post. It took me by surprise.

Regards,
Noel


No need to apologize my friend. I even chucked at it as it was a good one!
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I think I just blow my warm weather theory out the window as I just saw on the news that New Orleans may be the next epic center.

Yeah, it's looking pretty hot on the national map right now.....

John Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center Map

Attached picture Untitled.jpg
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 02:48 PM
Here's a great tip I just found.

Put a gallon of dishwashing soap and a gallon of bleach in your washing machine and run it for 10 minutes.

It will disinfect your whole house...

Attached picture Foam House.jpg
Posted By: musiclover Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 04:03 PM
What about running most of the Grocery shop under the tap, as lot of it must have been handled by countless people before it reaches the shopper?

I know that neither hot nor cold water will dissolve the virus, but maybe it can wash it off, which is a lot better than handling some milk or food package with the virus on it.

May sound like an Over The Top thing to do, but its a crazy and dangerous world we are living in at the moment.
Posted By: beatmaster Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 05:46 PM
We do that clean everything coming in to the house even parcel deliveries and letters opened with rubber gloves dealt with then thrown out.

That's the British prime minister Boris Johnson in Intensive care unit, worrying times indeed. Stay in Stay safe..!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 10:02 PM
I'm not at all surprised about this one. It's one thing to offer your "spin" on the news and current events. It's an entirely different thing to misinform the public about something that could cause them or members of their family to get sick or even die.

"Fox News Is Preparing to Be Sued Over Coronavirus Misinformation"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/fox-news-prepares-coronavirus-misinformation-lawsuits

They already know they "screwed the pooch" on this one.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 10:35 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
I'm not at all surprised about this one. It's one thing to offer your "spin" on the news and current events. It's an entirely different thing to misinform the public about something that could cause them or members of their family to get sick or even die.

"Fox News Is Preparing to Be Sued Over Coronavirus Misinformation"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/fox-news-prepares-coronavirus-misinformation-lawsuits

They already know they "screwed the pooch" on this one.


If people start suing news media over "It's an entirely different thing to misinform the public about something that could cause them or members of their family to get sick or even die." there could be a ton of lawsuits flying around.

I totally agree with you about the concept of misinforming the public like that but if Fox is going to get sued then CNN, MSNBC, etc, would be next. I have seen them and even our local news give misinformation about this virus. I just hope we all don't go sue happy as we have more important things to worry about right now. YMMV
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 10:48 PM
Mario,

I totally agree with you about people looking to sue someone for their misfortunes.

So far, I haven't seen anything about NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC or CNN preparing for lawsuits because they know for a fact they misinformed the public about an International health pandemic.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/06/20 11:00 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
So far, I haven't seen anything about NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC or CNN preparing for lawsuits because they know for a fact they misinformed the public about an International health pandemic.

And that is because they did NOT misinform the way Fox did. The "everyone does it" defense is nonsense.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 11:21 AM
After our infrequent grocery trips, we wipe all packages with either dilute bleach water or alcohol before bring them in the house.

We also take our clothes off and hang them on the line for over 24 hours (we have privacy in our back yard). In Florida we have sunshine with lots of UV to harm the virus. When they come in, they go straight into the washer.

We even leave the mail outdoors 24 hours before bringing it in.

As far as suing the media is concerned. FOX is not news, it calls itself entertainment in it's business license.
Since it poses at news, and if they intentionally misinformed people about the plague, they should be sued.

BTW, according to politifact, FOX has an 8% full truth rating and MSNBC doesn't do much better with 9%. With Fox 60% ranges from mostly false to 'pants on fire' false. MSNBC is close with 42% ranging from mostly false to 'pants on fire' false.

If you get your news from anything left or right of the 3 middle zones in the chart below, you are getting lied to more than told the truth. Instead of being informed, you are being misinformed. Be careful where you get your "news".

Politifact is a Pulitzer Prize winning, non-profit fact checking website. It shows no favoritism to either side of the aisle.





I'm a middle-of-the-road guy who leans a little right in fiscal issues and a little left in social issues. In the attached chart, I believe nothing to the left of the Atlantic or the right of the Hill.
I don't call the sites to the left or right fake news, I call them either propaganda or fraud news. (BTW, CNN scores the highest in truth ratings).

Now I'm not saying that those in the middle are 100% truthful, but the ones outside are more false than truth.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 01:55 PM
I prefer The Media Bias Chart as it is updated more frequently and includes more media in its rankings.

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/?v=402f03a963ba
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 04:37 PM
Wow, that is a really great chart JJJ thanks for posting it. The one you posted Notes is pretty good too but I think the other one is better. I never considered CNN to be hyper partisan left, I've felt it skews left but it's ok and the same with FOX. It certainly skews right but like CNN, not hyper. I just noticed something, this comment is based on me reading their online articles and I see when I click on CNN or FOX in the chart, the cable versions skew further than the online portals do. I really don't watch either one on cable I mostly read.

I've always had a measured take on all this. I'm not stupid and neither are any of us here. I can tell what's what and I still get good and useful info from many sources.

A very important point, I'm sure this chart is rating the actual news shows not their commentators like Chris Cuomo or Sean Hannity. Commentators can skew as far as they want but the news people not so much. Everybody is human, everybody has their biases and some control them better than others. I don't hold that against anybody from personal friends to the news. My observations over the years is all these people from far right to far left can still make good points that I want to hear and I'll figure it out myself.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 04:41 PM
"Coronavirus Survey: Nearly 3 In 4 Americans Think President Trump Should Wear Protective Mask"

https://www.studyfinds.org/coronavirus-survey-nearly-3-in-4-americans-think-president-trump-should-wear-protective-mask/

Unofficial poll taken by me of myself says he should wear a muzzle instead. LOL

Easy now, ... it's just a joke. grin
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 04:58 PM
I still doubt the viability of masks unless it's a real medical one which none of us can get right now. I went shopping yesterday and yes, now 90% of people are wearing something but a good half are simple bandannas from a scarf of napkin. Pure and complete crap, does squat for anybody. Even now when you read or listen to doctors they're split as well. Some don't want to appear reactionary and will go with the flow but to me at least, I can tell they really don't believe it while others simply say, other than actual medical masks or the N95's which again nobody can get right now, forget it. As for Trump, who knows how he conducts himself behind the scenes? He may be very paranoid about this and is extremely careful but for news conferences he wants to appear normal. Well, normal is a relative term haha. I basically support him because of his actual policies but the man himself? Wow, just wow...

Bob
Posted By: dcuny Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I totally agree with you about the concept of misinforming the public like that but if Fox is going to get sued then CNN, MSNBC, etc, would be next. I have seen them and even our local news give misinformation about this virus. I just hope we all don't go sue happy as we have more important things to worry about right now. YMMV

There's a difference between giving misinformation, and knowingly mounting a disinformation campaign.

And there's mounting evidence that Fox media knowingly promoted a false narrative.

For example, Fox downplayed the seriousness of the Coronavirus to viewers, saying that the outbreak was no worse than the common flu.

But at the same time, network executives told its employees that it was instituting telecommuting, reducing studio bookings, canceling the audience of "The Greg Gutfeld Show" and "reducing the staff footprint at our headquarters" in response to the virus.

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/25/murdoch-family-took-serious-precautions-against-coronavirus-as-fox-news-downplayed-risk-to-public/

Fox promoted a narrative that those warning of the Coronavirus danger were "panic pushers", engaged in "mass hysteria", and that it was all an effort to try to bring down the president.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/mar/17/fox-news-coronavirus-outbreak-trump

Since that point, the tone at Fox has changed drastically.

And certainly, not everyone at Fox media accepted that narrative. For example the above article quotes Carlson Tucker:

Carlson, who in the past has demonized immigrants and described white supremacy as a hoax, criticized those making light of coronavirus more than a week ago, describing it as a “major event”.

“People you trust, people you probably voted for, have spent weeks minimizing what is clearly a very serious problem,” Carlson told viewers on 9 March, at the same time other Fox News hosts, and Trump, were doing that very thing.

“It’s just partisan politics, they say: ‘Calm down. In the end, this is just like the flu and people die from that every year. Coronavirus will pass, and when it does, we will feel foolish for worrying about it.’

“That’s their position. But they’re wrong.”


At the end of the day, Fox media's culpability is a matter for the courts to decide.
Posted By: MarioD ! - 04/07/20 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
................. My observations over the years is all these people from far right to far left can still make good points that I want to hear and I'll figure it out myself.

Bob


Exactly!

If one gets their "news" from only one source they are not getting the entire picture.

My view is that most involved with any 24 hour news stations are editorializing. They are not true reporters.

I'm a centralist. On some things I am very conservative, others very liberal.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
............. I basically support him because of his actual policies but the man himself? Wow, just wow...

Bob


Ditto!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 06:10 PM
An old picking buddy and luthier recently shared this with me;


[img:center]https://www.dropbox.com/s/89055mq24v8w9oe/Trump%20post%20tortoise.jpg?dl=0[/img]



It gave me a good laugh.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 07:31 PM
"Acting Navy secretary resigns over handling of virus-stricken aircraft carrier"

"Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly resigned on Tuesday following an uproar over a profanity-laced address to the crew of the coronavirus-stricken aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt on Sunday, Defense Secretary Mark Esper announced."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/thomas-modly-coronavirus-speech-resign-navy-172625


Good. He should be ashamed of himself for the things he said about the Captain. Even though he apologized, conduct like that is unforgivable.

The Captain has since tested positive for Covid 19.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 07:55 PM
Yeah, what a mess that was. As an AF guy, you NEVER go outside the chain of command so the Captain was "somewhat" wrong I think but the crew sure didn't think so. This is an extraordinary situation, we've never been here before so yeah, I think that Captain should have been cut some slack, maybe a minor reprimand or something but to be publicly relieved of command and then to be insulted like that? No way. Yes, I'm well aware you NEVER reveal something about your command that tells an enemy your effectiveness could be compromised. But, we're not really at war in the sense of a real possibility of an attack on a supercarrier so just let it go. These are not normal times.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 08:05 PM
I think the Captain knew he was risking his command but he felt the lives of his men and women were more important than his career.

Who wants to bet that his men and women get everything they need to protect themselves and their ship after this?
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 09:44 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Wow, that is a really great chart JJJ thanks for posting it.

Yes, this is the best resource I have ever found! If you truly seek the truth you can click on their interactive version and see just how biased Fox evening commentators are compared to even MSNBC. Spoiler alert...Fox commentators are consistently more biased!

On the other hand, Fox News has one of the very best news people in Chris Wallace. I watch him regularly even though he skews a little to the right. I find Wallace is generally honest and will critically attack any liars regardless of their political affiliation.

------------------
Below is from the Media Bias Interactive Chart
------------------
Bias scores for articles and shows are on a scale of -42 to + 42, with higher negative scores being more left, higher positive scores being more right, and scores closer to zero being the most neutral and/or balanced.

Fox News-Tucker Carlson Tonight / Bias 31.00 / Quality 9.75
Fox News-Hannity / Bias 33.75 / Quality 14.25
Fox News-The Ingraham Angle / Bias 24.00 / Quality 25.75
Fox News-Justice with Judge Jeanine / Bias 34.50 / Quality 19.50
Fox News-Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace / Bias 5.00 / Quality 46.33

MSNBC-MTP Daily / Bias -16.33 / Quality 39.67
MSNBC-The Beat With Ari Melber / Bias -11.33 / Quality 31.33
MSNBC-The Rachel Maddow Show / Bias -14.33 / Quality 36.67
MSNBC-The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell / Bias -30.00 / Quality 31.67
MSNBC-The 11th Hour with Brian Williams / Bias -19.33 / Quality 41.67
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Wow, that is a really great chart JJJ thanks for posting it.

Yes, this is the best resource I have ever found! If you truly seek the truth you can click on their interactive version and see just how biased Fox evening commentators are compared to even MSNBC. Spoiler alert...Fox commentators are consistently more biased!

On the other hand, Fox News has one of the very best news people in Chris Wallace. I watch him regularly even though he skews a little to the right. I find Wallace is generally honest and will critically attack any liars regardless of their political affiliation.

------------------
Below is from the Media Bias Interactive Chart
------------------
Bias scores for articles and shows are on a scale of -42 to + 42, with higher negative scores being more left, higher positive scores being more right, and scores closer to zero being the most neutral and/or balanced.

Fox News-Tucker Carlson Tonight / Bias 31.00 / Quality 9.75
Fox News-Hannity / Bias 33.75 / Quality 14.25
Fox News-The Ingraham Angle / Bias 24.00 / Quality 25.75
Fox News-Justice with Judge Jeanine / Bias 34.50 / Quality 19.50
Fox News-Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace / Bias 5.00 / Quality 46.33

MSNBC-MTP Daily / Bias -16.33 / Quality 39.67
MSNBC-The Beat With Ari Melber / Bias -11.33 / Quality 31.33
MSNBC-The Rachel Maddow Show / Bias -14.33 / Quality 36.67
MSNBC-The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell / Bias -30.00 / Quality 31.67
MSNBC-The 11th Hour with Brian Williams / Bias -19.33 / Quality 41.67



Two thumbs up for Chris Wallace. He actually tries to present unbiased reporting.

Mike would be proud.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 10:03 PM
Fox would have a chance of being an actual news network if they were to fire EVERYONE in their daytime and prime time line up and put Neil Cavuto in charge.

He's a very decent and intelligent guy.

Then ask Shep Smith to come back. That would be a good start.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/07/20 10:45 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Fox would have a chance of being an actual news network if they were to fire EVERYONE in their daytime and prime time line up and put Neil Cavuto in charge.

He's a very decent and intelligent guy.

Then ask Shep Smith to come back. That would be a good start.


Agreed.

The three I don't like at all are Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham.

Mark Levin is also very good. Biased yes but he does know the constitution extremely well.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 12:43 AM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Fox would have a chance of being an actual news network if they were to fire EVERYONE in their daytime and prime time line up and put Neil Cavuto in charge.

He's a very decent and intelligent guy.

Then ask Shep Smith to come back. That would be a good start.

Yeah but then they'd have to compete on equal footing with actual news networks. They will never do that because they found their market and it makes them a lot of money while dumbing down an awful lot of Americans.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 01:43 AM
Shep's non-compete is ending in a few months so I imagine he'll be snapped up by CNN or MSNBC. You couldn't pay me to watch Trump Tv aka Fox News channel. Especially at night when all they do is scream and lie. Who knew the secret to ratings success was lying and screaming at the audience while just making it up as you go along - we could've all been Rush....sarcasm intended. I get more news off Saturday Night live. My opinion only - I realize there are those who like being lied to, screamed at and brainwashed with alternative facts. I don't care for it. smile

So I've been working on sewing masks. We'll use the term sewing loosely as I'm going to admit that I cannot sew a perfectly straight seam. Fair to middlin' at best. Harder than I remembered. This may explain why the sewing machine has spent most of it's life in the closet. grin The good news is I have managed to cobble together two masks each for my husband and myself for a total of four using a an old 100% cotton tightly woven shirt and a t-shirt for lining both dug out of the closest.

Josie
Posted By: KeithS Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 12:53 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Keith S,

I found one new 3M Cool Flow N95 Pro 8511 respirator in my tool box. I tried to give it to my son but he wouldn't take it. So we agreed that whoever takes it should be the only one who goes out to the store.

My question is, how reusable is it? I know we can't share.

Your thoughts please. I started to send this to you in a message but I thought your answer might be helpful to others.


Bob, I apologize for the tardy response but I overlooked this post somehow.

The best answer I can give you is that under normal circumstances, and for their intended use they were not reusable at all. Under emergency situations I am afraid that your guess is as good as mine. Most people are of the opinion that anything is at least a little better than nothing.

We received a shipment of 8;800 masks in Montgomery last week from the FEMA stockpile that indicates how dicey this mask situation is and how disingenuous some of the finger pointing is surrounding the earlier depletion of the stockpile during the N1H1 crisis. The entire shipment of masks was dry rotted. Every mask that 3M manufactures has a shelf life of 5 years. Every mask in the shipment had expiration dates that occurred back in the Bush Administration. If every mask taken out of the stockpile in 2009 had been replaced, those would be expired now as well.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 01:09 PM
Keith,

Mine is dated 10/2022 and its in good shape. Thanks for getting back to me.

I used it for the first time today.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 01:34 PM
Fauci predicts kids will be back in school by fall.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/04/07/coronavirus-school-prediction-fauci-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 01:40 PM
This is good news, ... which seems to be in short supply right now. The Olympics is one of the very few sporting events besides the Masters that I make it a point to watch.

"Athletes who already qualified for 2020 Olympics will keep their spot in 2021"

https://www.cbssports.com/olympics/news/athletes-who-already-qualified-for-2020-olympics-will-keep-their-spot-in-2021/
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 09:27 PM
No need to worry about the economy after Covid 19. Ivanka Trump is going to help fix it:

"Report: Ivanka Trump to Pause Guitar Lessons to Rescue Entire Economy"

"Two things you likely know about Donald Trump by now are that he’s a pathological liar and creepily obsessed with his eldest daughter, Ivanka Trump. While it would be nice for humanity if, in the midst of major crisis, he could ease up on the cascade of bullsh*t that flows from his mouth and/or the categorically insane remarks about his child, that’s just not the way he rolls. Instead, on Tuesday he managed to jack things up a notch.

Hosting a call with business leaders to discuss what the administration is doing to provide financial relief to small businesses, the president put it out there that his daughter, whose professional experience peaked with a failed clothing line, has personally created, wait for it, 15 million jobs."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/ivanka-trump-coronavirus-small-businesses
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/08/20 10:34 PM
Hey, so he exaggerates a little...

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/10/20 07:02 PM
"Trump tweets about ratings for his coronavirus press briefings for the 3rd day in a row as US death toll surpasses 18,000 and unemployment nears 17 million"

"President Donald Trump has repeatedly bragged about high TV ratings for his daily coronavirus press briefings.

Trump has tweeted about ratings three days in a row this week, suggesting they're proof that critics of his handling of the coronavirus pandemic are wrong.

As Trump focuses on ratings, the US surpassed 18,000 deaths from coronavirus as of Friday afternoon.

Almost 17 million Americans have also filed for unemployment in recent weeks as a consequence of the pandemic."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-tweets-ratings-coronavirus-press-163615365.html


Obviously, he thinks people are tuning in to see him, instead of tuning in to get the latest information to protect themselves and their families.

He never fails to believe that everything centers around him.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/11/20 03:09 AM
Really uplifting 80 seconds from Doner advertising in Detroit. It'll make you feel better no matter where you live.


Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/11/20 05:19 AM
Hi Josie,

Thank you for posting this video. It's awesome! I love how the what many see as negative is flipped on its head. It's very empowering! You've lifted me out of the doldrums today. Thank you smile

All the best and stay safe,
Noel
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/11/20 09:01 AM
Thanks for bringing some positive inspiration out of all of this. Yes, a long way to go, but true determination will help us get there more quickly, and feel better about what we achieve.

Stay positive, stay strong, stay safe.
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/11/20 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Sundance
Really uplifting 80 seconds from Doner advertising in Detroit. It'll make you feel better no matter where you live.

Sundance, if you like that, you'll love this. The song and footage seem to go together very well as I felt very emotional during parts of it.

It's filmed like the one you shared but from New York, Chicago, Budapest, Paris, & Lisbon after lockdown due to Covid 19.

Disturbed: "Sound of Silence" - Simon and Garfunkel cover
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/12/20 08:45 PM
Those vids are very nice, fun and well done. They don't help us with trying to figure this thing out though but they are a nice diversion so thanks for posting them. Here's one that's very interesting from a doctor in a NYC ICU:



His point is the same one I read a few days ago and it also has to do with what is called "proning" It means to flip over and lay on your stomach. That doctor specifically talked about getting more oxygen into the lungs and lowering the ventilator pressure needed for that or even not needing a ventilator. Just a standard oxygen tube could be enough. Laying on your stomach pushes your heart to the side just a touch which opens the bottom of your lungs enough to help with that.

So much going on, so many unknowns.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/12/20 11:49 PM
If many of you are like me and have unplugged from TV service, then you may have missed this from earlier today:

Meet The Press Broadcast (Full) - April 12th, 2020 | Meet The Press | NBC News

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVkmaBCXMx4
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/13/20 12:46 AM
"Trump retweeted a threat to fire Fauci after he said the US's slow response to COVID-19 has cost lives"

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-retweets-threat-fire-fauci-2020-4
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:25 AM
If we needed another reason to think our Federal Government has lost touch with reality:

"Oh Thank God: Trump Appoints Ivanka and Jared to Council to Reopen America"

"Pop quiz time! An unprecedented pandemic has killed more than 118,000 people worldwide and infected more than 1.9 million. The U.S. just surpassed Italy as the country with the highest number of deaths. As a result of people necessarily being told to stay home, i.e. the only way at this point to slow the spread, the economy is in shambles. Almost 17 million Americans have filed for unemployment, with some predicting that 20 million will be out of work by the end of the month. Economists believe the chance of a recession within the next twelve months is 100%, with many saying the country is already in one. You, as president, are in charge of said country. What do you do? If you’re Donald J. Trump, you (1) resist mass testing or really any semblance of a plan for developing virus-tracking measures that could, in theory, help some parts of the population safely return to work, and (2) appoint your idiot daughter and son-in-law to your economic task force, because scarily, in a family of certifiable morons, they’re considered the smart ones."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-council-to-reopen-america

How much evidence does it take for people to realize we have a lunatic at the helm?
Posted By: Hugh2 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:59 AM
Hi Bob,
The actual figures dead on Corona
Uk 13,000 65 million population
US 24,000 330 million population
EU 68,000 450 million population
China ???? estmated up to 250,000 dead but who knows.

Even if you adjust the EU figures for higher population then you can see that the US (even though it had a case before the EU )is about 60% less deaths than the EU.
The only other president that was threated anyway like Pres Trump was Pres Bush the younger.But even that threatment ,the name calling etc was a drop in the ocean .Here is Bush on the pandemic in 2005 now being called a visionary in 2020 by the same people who called him a lunatic in 2005.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spcj6KUr4aA
H
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:18 AM
Hi Hugh2,

If your information is correct, it appears that you're from Ireland.

I can't recall anyone on the forum ever trying to stick their nose in the pervasive issues in your country.

Do you recall anything of that nature?

Our country is in jeopardy from someone who is totally clueless and it affects all of our lives.

If you are in Ireland, how about minding the business of your country and let those of us affected by this moron decide for ourselves.

Thanks
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
................
How much evidence does it take for people to realize we have a lunatic at the helm?


If you insist on keeping it political I will just add that this "lunatic at the helm" is one hell of a lot better that the last four lunatics we had at the helm.
Posted By: bloc-head Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 12:25 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
................
How much evidence does it take for people to realize we have a lunatic at the helm?


If you insist on keeping it political I will just add that this "lunatic at the helm" is one hell of a lot better that the last four lunatics we had at the helm.

Thank you Mario...
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 12:42 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Hi Hugh2,

If your information is correct, it appears that you're from Ireland.

I can't recall anyone on the forum ever trying to stick their nose in the pervasive issues in your country.

Do you recall anything of that nature?

Our country is in jeopardy from someone who is totally clueless and it affects all of our lives.

If you are in Ireland, how about minding the business of your country and let those of us affected by this moron decide for ourselves.

Thanks

Bob,

With all respect, and I mean that sincerely, that is an unfair comment. This is a forum that's for all of us around the world to use.

If you post comments in a Canadian forum that has a pretty huge selection of people of many nationalities, then all those nationalities are entitled to comment on your posts. Otherwise, why on earth post here?

If you don't like comments from other countries, don't post USA politics here. I'm sure there is a USA forum somewhere that would do the job much better.

I'm suddenly reminded of that old saying that goes something like, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". I've done my very best to steer things away from politics and Trump, blah, blah, blah, but it keeps on coming back. I guess I'll just have to start voicing my opinions on USA politics and what my local papers and political and economic analysts are saying. It should go down a treat. For what it's worth, most comments that appear in my local papers parallel and support the thoughts you share in your posts.

I know it's a time of angst for all right now but let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a global music forum and not a USA-specific platform for raucous politics.

Please stay safe,
Noel
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
................
How much evidence does it take for people to realize we have a lunatic at the helm?


If you insist on keeping it political I will just add that this "lunatic at the helm" is one hell of a lot better that the last four lunatics we had at the helm.


Thanks Mario, I learned a long time ago it is very easy to stir up the hate pot when you have nothing to loose.

Our best to you and your Linda.

Later,
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 01:12 PM
If you run out of face masks, here's an interesting trick from Armando Requejo on Twitter laugh

https://twitter.com/i/status/1245162797115334656

And here is a rough analysis of isolation

https://twitter.com/markarayner/status/1249385801416392705/photo/1
Posted By: lambada Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 02:53 PM
My Filipino wife's uncle just died in New York from Covid-19. His Filipino wife and daughter work in the hospital system. One in ER. We don't know the fate of the rest of the family yet. It suddenly made it all very personal.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 02:59 PM
Mario,

For the ump-teenth time, its not about politics. I don't trust Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Socialists, Libertarians, etc. I always vote for whoever I believe will do the best job. Absent that, I try to pick the one I think will do the least damage.

I've voted for far more Republicans for president than I have for Democrats. I don't accept the "politics" accusation for one minute since I know it isn't true.

For me, "politics" is when you tow the party line and support them regardless of how atrocious their actions are. Its also about not being willing to admit you screwed up when you help put someone in office that literally is putting your country and the world in danger because of their incompetence.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Mario,

For the ump-teenth time, its not about politics. I don't trust Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Socialists, Libertarians, etc. I always vote for whoever I believe will do the best job. Absent that, I try to pick the one I think will do the least damage.

I've voted for far more Republicans for president than I have for Democrats. I don't accept the "politics" accusation for one minute since I know it isn't true.

For me, "politics" is when you tow the party line and support them regardless of how atrocious their actions are. Its also about not being willing to admit you screwed up when you help put someone in office that literally is putting your country and the world in danger because of their incompetence.


Bob,

In all due respect anytime one comes out against a political figure, especially the US President or any countries leader, then it is political.

I despised the last four presidents and many Dems, Reps, and independents today. You don't see me posting about them on a music site do you.

In my view it is political and it should not be allowed here. But I will respond if I see the need.

peace
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
I know it's a time of angst for all right now but let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a global music forum and not a USA-specific platform for raucous politics.

I completely agree. Well said Noel. It's definitely not all about us in the U.S.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 03:27 PM
Mario,

So we can't speak out about someone who has mishandled a pandemic and now has a death toll in the USA of an estimated 25,073 per Bing on a thread titled Covid 19 without being accused of engaging in politics?

Peace to you too my friend. Stay safe.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:27 PM
Noel,

I would fully expect and even hope that you would tell me to mind my business if I were to speak out in support of one of your leaders that you and millions of others in your country believed was not only ruining your country but also putting millions of lives at stake.

Take care.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:32 PM
Ever tune into a performance where the performer plays the same predictable set-list every show, show after show, week after week, month after month, year after year . . . boring show after boring show? Am I the only one who screams at the tube, PLEASE LEARN A NEW SONG?

But I digress, or do I? No need for answers, just rhetorical questions.

Later,
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:38 PM
Danny,

Have you ever noticed how some people pin a flag to the wall behind them and point a finger at the camera because they believe it shows they love their country?
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Noel,

I would fully expect and even hope that you would tell me to mind my business if I were to speak out in support of one of your leaders that you and millions of others in your country believed was not only ruining your country but also putting millions of lives at stake.

Take care.


Noel would have the common sense not to do it here.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Noel,

I would fully expect and even hope that you would tell me to mind my business if I were to speak out in support of one of your leaders that you and millions of others in your country believed was not only ruining your country but also putting millions of lives at stake.

Take care.


Noel would have the common sense not to do it here.


I didn't start the thread and I'm commenting on the topic at hand.

Common sense makes me compelled to do that. If PG wanted it taken down, they would have done so already.
Posted By: Planobilly Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 04:52 PM
Off-Topic (162 viewing)
This forum is for music-related discussions that aren't covered in other forums.

Well...we all can read the above. Based on the fact that people all over the world are passing away by the thousands with no real end in site perhaps we 'should' disregard the normal use of this part of the forum and be able to talk about Covid-19. Plus anyone who is offended can log off.

For sure we should condemn Emmanuel Jean-Michel Frédéric Macron for all the mistakes real and imagined. And what that guy who never combs his hair....old whats his name from England. You would think the Queen would have a word with him.
Giuseppe Conte has really made a mess of things so I have been told but I have not been to Italy sense last year so I am not sure.

As for all the sheep and lemmings that can not think for them self, blaming the leader of the country for their condition deserve just what they get.

As I live here in the USA most of the time, I could care less what Trump or any government knuckle head has to say. They actually don't control me. I put on a good face mask the first day I was aware that Covid-19 exist and so did every Dr. who had to deal with it. Perhaps sheep just don't know what to do in a Pandemic or Hurricane or other disaster and are totally dependent on people like their national leaders.

This Corona virus really sucks for me and my wife as both of us are way over seventy. What that means is we will have to ware a mask and gloves and stay away from people until a vaccine is produced in a year or two or perhaps never.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Mario,

So we can't speak out about someone who has mishandled a pandemic and now has a death toll in the USA of an estimated 25,073 per Bing on a thread titled Covid 19 without being accused of engaging in politics?

Peace to you too my friend. Stay safe.


You and others think he mishandled the pandemic but me and others think he is doing a great job. But you don't see me or others bragging about his performance on a music site.

Peace and stay healthy and safe my friend.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker


I didn't start the thread and I'm commenting on the topic at hand.

Common sense makes me compelled to do that. If PG wanted it taken down, they would have done so already.


I was just stating that Noel would have the common sense not to do it here.

Troll on.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 05:30 PM
HearToLearn,

I've already been accused on this thread of being possessed by demons in a now deleted post from earlier today.

Being accused of being a troll is laughable after that. grin

LOL
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
HearToLearn,

I've already been accused on this thread of being possessed by demons in a now deleted post from earlier today.

Being accused of being a troll is laughable after that. grin

LOL


To set the record straight I do not think that you are a troll or you are possessed by demons. I believe that you are a person with strong feelings against this president and that you have the right to express those feelings. I just believe this is not the forum to express them.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 06:06 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD

To set the record straight I do not think that you are a troll


Also, to set the record straight, nor do I. Further explanation later.

Quote:
or you are possessed by demons.


I don't either.

Quote:
I believe that you are a person with strong feelings against this president and that you have the right to express those feelings.


Totally agree.

Quote:
I just believe this is not the forum to express them.

Totally agree again.

However, because I don't believe it's relevant to what this forum is about, to continue with it to this extent is troll-ish behavior. That is why I said "troll on" instead of calling anyone a troll.

Now, some may argue you can't do that without being a troll, I would argue I strum strings and play chords on a guitar, BARELY. To call both Bob and I guitarists would be an insult to Bob. wink If someone asked if I play guitar, I don't even say "A little." It's a "nope" from me.

Anyway, um....carry on, I guess? And I'm not calling anyone "Carrie" either. wink

Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 06:44 PM
Not really concerned with "the likes of people like that Bob". because "I do love my country".

OK your turn, let me guess another I hate Trump Song coming up. laugh

Ooops, Sorry I just changed the channel.



Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 06:47 PM
Holy crap! I get busy with taxes and don't visit this thread for two days and THIS happens??

FlatpickerBob, what in the hell are you doing dude? Somebody coined the phrase Trump Derangement Syndrome a few years ago and while I thought it was funny, never took it seriously. Now I am.

Lambada, a respected member of our family here, just lost a family member and is concerned about the others. My condolence go out to you man and I really hope everybody else is good.

Lets talk about the virus, what's the latest with it, what are the projections going forward.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 06:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Danny C.
Not really concerned with "the likes of people like that Bob". because "I do love my country".

OK your turn, let me guess another I hate Trump Song coming up. laugh

Ooops, Sorry I just changed the channel.






Danny,

You might also want to change your pic. It screams of Alex Jones.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Lets talk about the virus, what's the latest with it, what are the projections going forward.

Bob



My heart goes out to Lambada and his family.

I've got a question, ... how do we talk about the virus in the USA without talking about the person who claims to have absolute control over all of the states and whether or not they lift the travel and working bans?
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:26 PM
Danny,

Did you get a loved ones opinion of whether or not you should use that pic to represent you?

Surely they would have said NO!

I know, ... Don't call me Shirley. grin
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:34 PM
Bob,

Now let's attack Danny . . . wow just think if I were from another country, according to you I would not be able to even have or express an opinion.

My opinion is that you are so transparent with your blatant attacks on Potus, after which you run and hide behind your, gee guys "It's not political camouflage" and we are all supposed to buy that BS. Just man up and admit you hate this Potus and relish in the thought of putting him and his family down, instead of hiding behind your "it's not political BS".

Just FYI, I am not a fan of Alex Jones but if I were, wouldn't that be my business, sort of like the photo I use on my profile. Speaking of being a fan, heck I can even remember when I was a fan of Bob Flatpicker before his TDS went full blown.

Again I am reminded why I spend less and less time on what IMO used to be the best forum on the web.

Now I have to work on some new tunes, this one has nearly bored me to death.

Stay Safe All,
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:37 PM
You are not now or ever were funny Bob, or is this your "Hey I'll use some Comedy Camo" after the insult.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:38 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
I've got a question, ... how do we talk about the virus in the USA without talking about the person who claims to have absolute control over all of the states and whether or not they lift the travel and working bans?

Bob, like you, I am capable of rising above politics and clearly see the problem. Like you, I have voted for people on both sides of the political spectrum. As you have said, this is not political. Thousands of innocent Americans have died and continue to die due to gross incompetence. But you will not convince anyone here I'm afraid. Some don't want to even discuss the issue for fear of appearing political while some are so drunk on the kool-aid they can't even hear you.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:48 PM
Danny,

I'm not attacking you, but after all of the comments that were directed toward me did you really expect me not to respond?

I made the comments about your profile pic in brutal honesty. It is yours and you alone get to choose what you use.

As far as the big orange Cheeto in chief, I do despise the man. Not because of his party but because he's a fraud.

I hate that he's fooled so many good people into thinking he actually gives a sh*t about our country. He doesn't.

Take care Danny and I do hope the best for you and your family during this pandemic.
Posted By: musiclover Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 07:48 PM
Come on guys everyone just calm down and shake hands...ah I forgot that’s not allowed....just wish each other well...we are all supposed to be buddies here!

Just thinking that if any us succumbed to the virus, wouldn't it be terrible to think that the last exchange you had with them in the forum was a lot less than a pleasant exchange.

wink
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:13 PM
Luckily our creator has a hard drive that is not erased by mere mortals. BIAB moderator erased my comment today even though he allows Bob to spout his vile political rhetoric ad nauseum. He as well as all of us will eventually be held accountable for our actions whether you agree or not. One good thing about this pandemic is that many mortals have realized they could actually die and whether they will have to answer for their actions or be shut off forever. We'll see if he also deletes this one or not. The truth always hurts.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:18 PM
John,

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

After being called "demon possessed" and a "troll" today, it's nice to hear some words of encouragement.

After some have attacked me without having the balls to call me out by name, it helps that you understand where I'm coming from.

If I have a snide remark to make about someone, I'll at least have the gumption to call them out by name.

Take care my friend.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:23 PM
belladona,

Thanks for suggesting I was demon possessed.

Please don't pray for me. Even if I was a believer, please don't ever pray for me.

You might want to make an appointment with an appropriate doctor.

I thought it was you who had deleted the comment after you realized how ridiculous it was.

My bad.
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:36 PM
Bob, I can't help but think your heart is in the right place. I will pray for you because only God can bring peace and love. I want to say I can even love you because all can be loved.

Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:48 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
John,

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

After being called "demon possessed" and a "troll" today, it's nice to hear some words of encouragement.

After some have attacked me without having the balls to call me out by name, it helps that you understand where I'm coming from.

If I have a snide remark to make about someone, I'll at least have the gumption to call them out by name.

Take care my friend.



Who said you were a troll? Just curious.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:50 PM
HearToLearn,

So you want to hide behind semantics?

C'mon, ... you're better than that. Have the balls to own up to what you implied!
Posted By: Charlie Fogle Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
HearToLearn,

I've already been accused on this thread of being possessed by demons in a now deleted post from earlier today.

Being accused of being a troll is laughable after that. grin

LOL


Just for the record, I posted and then deleted my particular post earlier today but it did not mention Bob, demons or Trolls in any shape, form or fashion so it's not the deleted post he mentions above.

My post was a list of verifiable, validated figures regarding the US government's response, directives and recommendations and the governments organizations in charge of determining what the response, directives, recommendations and the official policy of the US government has been.

The post was facts and not politics but after reading through this thread and seeing some of the passionate feelings of posters, I realized the facts did not matter into how some members could construe the facts to be intolerable to their pre-conceived political based conclusions about government personnel, policies and the government response and somehow take personal offense. So, I chose to delete my post.

Regarding the second portion of my post, it explained that the WH Task force is the same organization that's been in place since 1955 and since 1984, the current director Dr. Fauci, has been the director and has directed, advised, developed the responses and been the head leader/adviser to every president since Jimmy Carter. Were anyone beside President Trump the current president, that government organization and the medical leadership and advisers would be the same as it is today as would be their directives, advice, recommendations and medical response.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Bob, I can't help but think your heart is in the right place. I will pray for you because only God can bring peace and love. I want to say I can even love you because all can be loved.




I'm not an expert, but maybe medication can help you.

Take care Belladona
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:22 PM
Bob,

It's not semantics.

Your posts are not about politics, as you have stated. How am I supposed to know this? Because, you stated so.
Mine are not about calling you a troll. How are you supposed to know this? Because, I stated so.

Now, to be fair, I did bring the word "troll" into the conversation as a verb; but you are clearly not a verb Bob. You, my good man, are a noun. Had I used "troll" as a noun; I would agree with you.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:32 PM
Originally Posted By: HearToLearn
Bob,

It's not semantics.

Your posts are not about politics, as you have stated. How am I supposed to know this? Because, you stated so.
Mine are not about calling you a troll. How are you supposed to know this? Because, I stated so.

Now, to be fair, I did bring the word "troll" into the conversation as a verb; but you are clearly not a verb Bob. You, my good man, are a noun. Had I used "troll" as a noun; I would agree with you.







LOL./ Wait now until I stop laughing at you "straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel!"

If you're going to debate people, don't be cowardly about it!

You know what your implication was and to reduce yourself to trying to split hairs about nouns and verbs is ridiculous. Jeez!
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:38 PM
Bob, only God's healing is real, not man's. I will pray for all of us and you included because Jesus said to love everyone.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 09:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Bob, only God's healing is real, not man's. I will pray for all of us and you included because Jesus said to love everyone.



If I were a praying person, then I would pray that you get professional help.

Telling someone they are "demon possessed" is crossing the line by any account.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:00 PM
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker



LOL./ Wait now until I stop laughing at you "straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel!"


The irony is hilarious. Sorry it was lost on you.

Quote:
If you're going to debate people, don't be cowardly about it!


I wasn't debating. It's odd you see life that way; but not surprising.

See, you didn't call me a "coward." You called me "cowardly." Very different. Nicely done.

Quote:
You know what your implication was and to reduce yourself to trying to split hairs about nouns and verbs is ridiculous. Jeez!


Wait a minute...so you were calling me a "coward?" shocked laugh

Have a great night Bob.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:08 PM
HearToLearn,

I'm glad to see that you picked up on that.

I was calling you a "coward", just like you called me a troll. Only difference is I'm not afraid to admit what I said.

Have a great night too.
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:11 PM
Hate consumes from the inside. Love is the only thing that frees a person. If you want to be at peace and happy. Love your enemies.
Posted By: Hugh2 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:55 PM
Hi Bob
Your answer is deflecting from the figures I gave .I gave the accurate figures and you wont comment on them because they are so straight forward and simple to evaluate.

Look at the figures only. This a Canadian forum if anything.
I wanted my government to close borders but they didnt and I wanted the EU to close borders but they wouldnt because they were married to an open borders philosophy and wounldnt admit that was a complete disaster when it came to Coroan virus.
The biggest asset you have in a pandemic is your borders and the USA closed them on the 31st jan before they had a single death and they were ripped apart by the EU for doing it .
Look at the figures out of the EU 70,000 plus dead compares to the USA s 25,000 even when you adjust the 120 million extra in population of the EU ,the EU figures are a disaster zone .
You wont answer the figures and that makes your reply biased ,everybody has a bias ,everybody but the fact that you didnt try to overcome your bias is the issue,
They always said when the USA sneezes the rest of the world gets a cold but I think we can now say when China sneezes....H
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 10:59 PM
I don't hear the left yelling for open borders now or even santuary cities. All hiding in their closets. Amazing how things change once their personal lives are on the line.
Posted By: Sundance Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 11:19 PM
My goodness, gone for a bit and this has turned weird. I just hope nobody here gets it. I don't care who thinks Trump is a deranged moron or who thinks he's a stable genius. It's a scary time. If we don't get testing and safety measures in place so people aren't afraid to go back to work - it's not gonna matter who "opens" up the country. More people have died than live in some small towns I've lived in. Somebody loved each of them, they had families, hopes and dreams, they're not just numbers, each one had a name and a life story.

I'm thinking nobody in our lifetime has dealt with anything like this. Our way of life is gone. We don't know how, when or if it'll ever be the same. Maybe we're all going through the stages of grief. While some of us are still in denial, others of us are in anger, some of us are bargaining, some of us are depressed and I don't think any of us has truly accepted it yet. It's hard to get your head around.

Trump is so divisive about the only thing the pro Trump and no more Trump can agree on is we disagree. I don't hold any hope for either side winning new converts here. Sad as either side may see that.... So please y'all let's be kind to one another. We've all been friends too long around here and we need each other now more than ever.

BTW, Bobflatpicker I went to your SC and listened to some mighty fine bluegrass the other night. It had been a long time and I had forgotten just how good that picking and grinning sounds.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/14/20 11:54 PM
Hi Josie,

Thank you so much for shining a bright light on what is really important! The bottom line is that, right now, it's all about people's lives.

You've put it so well!

Thank you smile

Noel
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 04:13 AM
"Bobflatpicker I went to your SC and listened to some mighty fine bluegrass the other night. It had been a long time and I had forgotten just how good that picking and grinning sounds."

Sundance,

I'm glad you enjoyed the show. The other members of that trio were Jay & Debbie Blankenship. They are two very old and dear friends. We stopped playing together after I moved out of the area and took a job that required almost constant travel making it almost impossible to have time for playing music.

I miss them and their children a lot.

The host of that show was also an old friend and a fine fiddler named Joe Dobbs. He passed away a few years ago.

Good times gone by.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 06:06 AM
"Trump's name will be added to stimulus checks"

I'm not sure if it will say Trump or the big orange nitwit, but hey it's a check!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/trump-name-checks-coronavirus/index.html
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 11:20 AM
Bob make sure you don't accept the check, just return it.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 12:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Bob make sure you don't accept the check, just return it.

I suppose you'll be sending yours back because "socialism"!
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 12:22 PM
Imagine your neighborhood is burning. Your house is on fire. Your family and friends' houses are on fire. Lots of folks you don't know, their houses are on fire too.

A large fire company sends pumper trucks to various places in the neighborhood. They are actively pouring water on the fire. They're not the only one but they are making significant contributions to controlling the fire.

But the mayor of said neighborhood believes that the fire company might have withheld info on the fire or otherwise mismanaged the handling of it. And he may be right! Yet their current fire fighting efforts are significant in helping put out the fire and preventing further spread.

So, instead of waiting until the fire that is ravaging the neighborhood is under control, the mayor orders the water, being used by that fire company to put out the fires, be immediately TURNED OFF!

We could all agree, regardless of politics, that that is dangerously stupid, right?

https://apnews.com/f49b0be2bca44de0bf045cdaa95b69c6
Posted By: Belladonna Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 12:29 PM
Hey, I love President Trump. I'll probably frame the check.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 03:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Belladonna
Hey, I love President Trump. I'll probably frame the check.

Enjoy that. He'll be nothing but a dark stain on our history by January.
Posted By: Charlie Fogle Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Imagine your neighborhood is burning. Your house is on fire. Your family and friends' houses are on fire. Lots of folks you don't know, their houses are on fire too.

A large fire company sends pumper trucks to various places in the neighborhood. They are actively pouring water on the fire. They're not the only one but they are making significant contributions to controlling the fire.

But the mayor of said neighborhood believes that the fire company might have withheld info on the fire or otherwise mismanaged the handling of it. And he may be right! Yet their current fire fighting efforts are significant in helping put out the fire and preventing further spread.

So, instead of waiting until the fire that is ravaging the neighborhood is under control, the mayor orders the water, being used by that fire company to put out the fires, be immediately TURNED OFF!

We could all agree, regardless of politics, that that is dangerously stupid, right?

https://apnews.com/f49b0be2bca44de0bf045cdaa95b69c6



I was in agreement with you up to the sentence; "They are actively pouring water on the fire. They're not the only one but they are making significant contributions to controlling the fire." as to your story correlating to the WHO's current issue with President Trump in your link where WHO corresponds to being the fire department and Trump the mayor. The WHO (fire department) has not had a significant presence nor significant impact in the US coronavirus response. You may have better luck than I did in a Google search where I used the query "what significant help has WHO given the US during the pandemic" which didn't return a single story highlighting or featuring the WHO leading the US response.

A more accurate analogy of WHO's (fire department) role in the neighborhood fire is they monitored the fire but didn't pour water on the fire. Rather, they provided incorrect, insufficient, misleading and false information about the fire's intensity, severity and locations that caused the other fire departments fighting the fire to delay, misdirect resources and otherwise significantly miss getting ahead with their initial response.

Although WHO did not provide significant help in controlling the neighborhood fire, and the fire is still raging, WHO demands their normal share of the neighborhoods water supply they have contracted with the neighborhood in a Mutual Aid Agreement. The mayor can't cancel or negate the water payment to this fire department but he's certainly within his rights and has a duty to his neighborhood to delay the water payment and also review that fire departments conduct.

Also, regarding your imaginary fire department, WHO's duties and funding is not similar to your analogy. WHO's funding is separated into two types, assessment and voluntary. Assessment funding covers operating type expenses primarily and WHO has discretionary control. Voluntary funds are mostly bestowed and designated to how it's spent. The mayor (Trump) has no say in a lot of those funds.
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Imagine your neighborhood is burning. Your house is on fire. Your family and friends' houses are on fire. Lots of folks you don't know, their houses are on fire too.

A large fire company sends pumper trucks to various places in the neighborhood. They are actively pouring water on the fire. They're not the only one but they are making significant contributions to controlling the fire.

But the mayor of said neighborhood believes that the fire company might have withheld info on the fire or otherwise mismanaged the handling of it. And he may be right! Yet their current fire fighting efforts are significant in helping put out the fire and preventing further spread.

So, instead of waiting until the fire that is ravaging the neighborhood is under control, the mayor orders the water, being used by that fire company to put out the fires, be immediately TURNED OFF!

We could all agree, regardless of politics, that that is dangerously stupid, right?

https://apnews.com/f49b0be2bca44de0bf045cdaa95b69c6



I was in agreement with you up to the sentence; "They are actively pouring water on the fire. They're not the only one but they are making significant contributions to controlling the fire." as to your story correlating to the WHO's current issue with President Trump in your link where WHO corresponds to being the fire department and Trump the mayor. The WHO (fire department) has not had a significant presence nor significant impact in the US coronavirus response. You may have better luck than I did in a Google search where I used the query "what significant help has WHO given the US during the pandemic" which didn't return a single story highlighting or featuring the WHO leading the US response.

A more accurate analogy of WHO's (fire department) role in the neighborhood fire is they monitored the fire but didn't pour water on the fire. Rather, they provided incorrect, insufficient, misleading and false information about the fire's intensity, severity and locations that caused the other fire departments fighting the fire to delay, misdirect resources and otherwise significantly miss getting ahead with their initial response.

Although WHO did not provide significant help in controlling the neighborhood fire, and the fire is still raging, WHO demands their normal share of the neighborhoods water supply they have contracted with the neighborhood in a Mutual Aid Agreement. The mayor can't cancel or negate the water payment to this fire department but he's certainly within his rights and has a duty to his neighborhood to delay the water payment and also review that fire departments conduct.

Also, regarding your imaginary fire department, WHO's duties and funding is not similar to your analogy. WHO's funding is separated into two types, assessment and voluntary. Assessment funding covers operating type expenses primarily and WHO has discretionary control. Voluntary funds are mostly bestowed and designated to how it's spent. The mayor (Trump) has no say in a lot of those funds.


Well, you are just wrong in your reframing of my analogy. trump knew long before he acted so the vast majority of American deaths are on him. Maybe he can get his signature added to their death certificates?

And you are short-sighted as to how the WHO helps America. Because a deadly virus just can't be taught to Make America Great Again, it kills indiscriminately! So a deadly virus that spreads throughout Africa or Asia will certainly find its way to our shores. If you doubt that see COVID-19! So the work WHO does around the world always helps us here.

Finally, people a damn sight more intelligent than you or I, from both sides of the political spectrum and around the world are condemning this stupid move by trump. trump is desperately seeking someone to blame to distract from his own culpability.
Posted By: Hugh2 Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 04:56 PM
Hi,
Joe Biden is a likeable guy and he has a chance of winning in November but the incombent usually has a better chance of holding no matter who they are.One of his downsides is that he cant be a "change" candidate and another is that he has a record to defend that has a few ups and downs in it.If the question comes down to Joe or Donald on the Economy their is only one winner there so it really depends for Biden on what will the issues be at the time.If they are non economic issues he has a chance.The last election was very interesting because of the huge difference in political philosphy .Hillary and the democrats wanted "open borders" and Donald and Republicans not only didnt want open borders he wanted to "build a wall" on the border.
Why "open or closed borders" was such an important issue and remains so is because if you have open borders everywhere you have global governance and if you have closed borders you have independant country governance(America First).The question really is do you want to go down that road or not?Democracy could not work at global level and so it would be something else socialism or communism or some kind of mixture and with some kind of voting but not meaningful in anyway.M
My own view is that country state. borders and democracy have served the world well because it stops bad things going from one place to the next quickly whether that be a virus like we have now or a bad political idea or a bad social idea.It also keeps politics local or close to local and if you dont like whats going on kick them out at the next vote.
The real beauty of the American System of Government is that it was designed delibrately by its founders not to work fluently ( which is genius) and no one can get the upper hand for a long period of time whether you are GOP or Democrat.
Thats my thoughts on it
Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Hugh2
he has a record to defend that has a few ups and downs

Now that is the understatement of the decade! Impeached. Lost the popular vote by 3,000,000. Proven to have benefited from Russian interference. And on and on. Hands down worst president ever.

Quote:
Joe or Donald on the Economy their is only one winner there

Well, since the economy Obama created over 8 years was then trashed by trump due to his pandemic response, Biden should have that edge!

Quote:
Hillary and the democrats wanted "open borders" and Donald and Republicans not only didnt want open borders he wanted to "build a wall" on the border.

Democrats don't want open borders. And trump never built a wall. Oh and...AIRPLANES!
Posted By: sslechta Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
I know it's a time of angst for all right now but let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a global music forum and not a USA-specific platform for raucous politics.

Sorry again sir....
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:43 PM
I'm curious, who here has changed their mind from all of this "non political" talk?

I know of one person, I believe it was in this thread, that changed his mind on something specific and humbly admitted it. It wasn't as a result of this thread though. It was based on information he found.

So who has?

What good is coming from this?

How is this serving this forum?

I'm sincerely asking. smile
Posted By: MarioD Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:47 PM
I have contacted the moderator to public inform those of us posting American politics on this forum to stop. If it keeps up I feel there is a war coming here and some people's feelings will get hurt. Hopefully they will post a warning, we will stop, and then it will get back to a friendly group again.

If not I am locked and loaded.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:49 PM
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I have contacted the moderator to public inform those of us posting American politics on this forum to stop. If it keeps up I feel there is a war coming here and some people's feelings will get hurt. Hopefully they will post a warning, we will stop, and then it will get back to a friendly group again.

If not I am locked and loaded.


Agreed! Thanks Mario.

We are guests here.
Posted By: HearToLearn Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 05:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Noel96
I know it's a time of angst for all right now but let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a global music forum and not a USA-specific platform for raucous politics.


100%

I also wanted to say that I don't think the OP thought it would go this way. I feel his intentions were really good. smile
Posted By: Callie - PG Music Re: Covid 19 Virus (Corona) - 04/15/20 06:35 PM
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