I've happily posted works on the internet without any thought to officially registered copyright, membership in PRO's, formal publishing or any other such stuff above my place in the music business. Up to me, I'd continue to do so happily.

Lately, I've gone back to Fiverr looking for people to play a lead instrument on a chordal arrangement made in BIAB. I asked for something "melodic". Now, I know they give rights to commercial use and it is considered a "work for hire"...but this is about right and wrong, and not about "rights".

What if what they come up with is really uniquely "melodic" in the sense that it becomes "the song"? What if it is so coherent and beautiful that it could stand alone even without my "backing"? I truly hope that happens, and that it is not simply joining the harmony....if that makes sense.

There is, to my mind, a continuum between playing along and composing within limits where a collaborator/musician affects the outcome to such a degree that he/she ought to be considered a co-writer.

While I ponder that, I think I need to prepare for such contingencies to share in a more concrete "business" way not just credit but ownership.

But I don't have a clue how, even if I can figure out "when".

What do I need to do? If it's good advice, I might even start doing it for myself (and my back catalogue and collaborations).

When people hire me to play on their tracks, I do a lot of preparation to build on what they already have, not introduce something that might warrant a co-write decision. I use their music to suggest the harmony, counterpoint, or even hook. I think that takes more skill than just doing my own thing.

You are hiring a musician to perform on your session, in other words a session musician. Part of the agreement should be the musician receives money up front and in return signs away their rights to any audio they provide you.

One of the reasons people hire session musicians is to have access to their creativity. I've heard that most of the signature riffs you hear in popular music were created by session musicians "on demand". The producer says "we need something special" and they deliver time after time.

Thanks, Matt. I'm assuming, though, when people hire you to play on their tracks, they have already written a melody. All I "wrote" was a chord progression. I suppose there is melody in there (even if it's just the root notes), but it's not coherent and beautiful.

Likely what I will get back is improv over chords. That's probably not "co-write" worthy. But it is possible that I'll get back something I can also do for myself--draw out a melody from the progression that stands alone and "becomes" the composition or the song. It's melody that is copyright-able, and rightly so. Nobody hums chords. And to my mind, regardless of whether or not they worked for hire, that is something worth recognizing.

Note: I'm speaking as a song-writer. The world of composition has never really been my world, and both law and custom may apply differently.

Jim. Yes, they sign away rights to audio. I can use it any way I see fit. But there remains that component on the continuum when a simple improv or lead-line becomes the piece itself. Not a riff. Not a phrase. The piece.

I'm not trying to protect myself here. I'm trying to do the right thing.

Anyway, answers that tell me how to do THIS will also inform me how to do it for solo works and other collaborations, past and future.

Tangmo,

I understand your intent and where you're coming from. The law is one thing but what's right is another.

Jim is correct. That's what session musicians get paid to do, there's no "agreement" per se, it's just an industry standard and it's always been done that way. It's a fair arguement that they should get some kind of royalty - in most countries, artists/producers/session musicians get a performance royalty, or "performance in a sound recording". The U.S. is one of a very small group of countries that does not pay that royalty. Efforts have been made, and continue to be made, to change this, but the radio broadcasters lobby is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the U.S. and they have thus far completely blocked that from happening.

They should not, IMO, get a co-writer credit on the songs they play on however. If a session musician ever asked me for that, I would tell them (not very politely) to pack their gear and take a hike. They get paid a fee to perform a service - they get paid regardless if the song ever gets recorded, or becomes a hit, or not. They assume none of the risk, take on none of the responsibility of trying to get the song recorded, or played, etc. To get paid master or demo scale, and get writing credit on top of that, is double dipping and there's no way I would ever go along with that. It should be addressed in the performance in a sound recording, and that's not happening because of broadcasters.

Watch a bit of the videos below of legendary session guitarist Reggie Young. He played some of the most iconic guitar licks in history, and he didn't get songwriter credit for any of them - never expected to. He DID argue later in life that they (studio musicians) should get a performance royalty, and I agree with that. But that's entirely different than writing credit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEkHO6jxjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-6zd-z1qm8

Tangmo, no, none of the artists I played for gave me a song with no melody. A chord progression alone is not copyright-able so I suppose I would negotiate at this point, and depending on what results I might ask to be a co-writer. The song would not be finished enough without a melody for me to do my session work.

Roger, I don't know how or if you collaborate and/or share song-writing credits but imagine this: Someone brings you a really nice, somewhat unusual chord progression and demos it strumming on acoustic for three minutes. You write a melody line for it. Would you not think it was reasonable that you get at least a share of the writer's credit?

That's essentially what I've done...wrote a (hopefully) good progression. It's something beyond the usual, and because it is BIAB, it's something more produced and polished than a guitar strumming. My guy might spice up the progression with complimentary lines, licks, etc. Is he a co-writer? No. Neither is PGMusic or the players on RealTracks. He got paid and I got what I got.

But my guy MIGHT write a beautiful, coherent, hummable melody from my progression that works as a complete piece of music on its own, even if it no longer needs my progression at all. Is he a co-writer? Forgetting what the law says...I think he is. My having paid him does not mean he is not. If music business lawyers need to get involved to justify their existence, we'd just call it an advance on future royalties. Indeed, he may even turn out to be the primary writer. And I'm not the least bit sad about it!

A good number of my songs have started this way...someone else's chord progression in a produced work (backing?) inspires my vocal melody. (on the music side of the write). I guarantee you, I think I'm co-writer of the music...but I'd NEVER EVER contest that if he thought differently. I would not have done MY bit if he had not does his.

Again, song-writing and music composition may be two different worlds and models. I'm not trying to parse the two. I'm not trying to protect myself. I'm not trying to either follow or break custom. I'm just looking for coherent info on how to set up shop so I can do what I want.

Seems like the only solution to your personal dilemma is for you to also write the melody lines and pay the 5er musicians to play the melody you wrote.

I've been writing songs for a living since 1985, and have cowritten hundreds of songs with other writers during that time. All I'm telling you is what I've always done, what all of my peers have always done, and the general way the business has always been done, and provided the Reggie Young example.
If you feel morally compelled to give someone writer credit, knock yourself out. It's really that simple, it's your song-your choice. Over the years I've had artists record songs of mine and make changes to them (Trace Adkins & Ricky Van Shelton made substantial changes that I disagreed with) without asking for or receiving songwriter credit. I've also had artists/producers try to 'strong arm' me into giving them writing credit on songs that they've made no change to whatsoever, with the stated threat that if I don't, they won't record the song(s) - in which case I've always said no, usually in a pretty colorful manner. I've also had a substantial number of artists record songs of mine and copy the demo I produced, on more than one occasion note-for-note. The musicians who played the signature licks/solos didn't get writer credit, and I didn't get production credit on those projects either.
For me personally, if I sit down in a room with someone to write, and a song gets written during that time, they are a co-writer on it - doesn't matter if they don't have a word or a note in the song, my feeling has always been that I wouldn't have written what I wrote if that person hadn't been there...maybe they said or did something that spurred a thought. Not everyone does it that way, that's just me.
Bottom line is, if you genuinely feel the person in question made a substantial contribution to the WRITING of the song, by all means give them a piece of the writer credit. But understand there is a significant difference between WRITING and PRODUCTION. Coming up with a great solo, or intro, or turnaround, or ending; a grooving bass line or drum pattern; adding pushes, stops, or any dynamic movements - things like that are production, not songwriting - and it has been my experience, and is my opinion, that those do not warrant songwriting credit, unless the musician(s) in question are willing to waive their payment for playing on the project as side men.
Hope all that stuff clarifies what I was saying. Cheers.

Thanks, Roger. You're not the first professional song-writer I've "talked" with and I value your perspective on all this. I actually agree with everything you said...especially the part about adding some color to a refusal to be strong-armed. I'll be happy to collaborate on vocabulary, but I have the feeling you've got it covered.

What I will do is listen to my guy's contribution all by itself. If it sounds like a lead-line or improv over chords, he got paid and I am satisfied. If it sounds like a real coherent melody, then I'll decide and come up with a way to notate it. Hell, I may even post it like that for "comment".

The real purpose of the thread, though, is to say I just feel like I've been playing in the internet sand-box for a long time and, even though I have no plans or any real dreams of turning "professional", I'd like to organize my "hobby" in a more professional manner. It can't hurt. And if it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, I'd just feel better about it and more willing to "reach out", if that makes sense.

I laugh maniacally now, but one day it may still happen.

This is a thoughtful article concerning the difference between a "song-writer" and a "composer", and the replies are equally worth reading. Nothing in there about the "biz", but it's a good read.

http://rogerbourland.com/2007/05/11/difference-between-songwriting-and-composing/

In the early days and I am sure even to today, people have forced people to add "writers" to their songs so they have to split the proceeds. They used to do it with Elvis' stuff all the time, basically if you wanted Elvis to record your song, you need to play ball etc. I agree with what you are saying here. Production choices etc. are not co-writing the song. I also agree that if the guy talking in a commercial get's paid every time it airs, the guys or girls playing the music should to and they still don't here in the US. Many songs that the "wrecking crew" folks played on would not have been what they were without their (the studio musicians) contributions so there should have been a way for them to get something other than union scale for their work, but that is the way it works still.

Watched the videos Roger linked. Just makes me that much more determined to do what's right. My fiverr guy will make more money than I will. But if he actually accomplishes what I asked for...

We'll see.

Imagine a very-berry talented hairstylist will start shaving his/hers "logo" on customers heads...

...And then you apply for a 500K executive job and you win that bid.
Would the stylist be entitled to "royalty" because he perfected your "looks" that he/she might presume tipped the scale in your favor when you got the job?

I see it like this, if you like what you got, tip the performer or even better, spread the word about him/her.


P.S. Just having fun. Interesting discussion.

Imagine, now, a very talented hairstylist using your head as a canvas to create a new logo and use pictures and video of it to turn his TM into a 500K asset. His money or yours? I offered my "head" and paid him for the "haircut" and if it turns into something beyond my real expectations...(fades out pondering).


*******************

The conundrum isn't whether or not to do it. Roger told me I could do it if I want to. So there.

It's more of a judgement call concerning WHEN I might want to do it. That depends on how far above it stands.

HOW! Now that's the real problem. If I want to and think it's right, HOW the hell do I do it in a (semi) professional manner?

As to the how, you don't have a lot of options. If you're wanting (insisting) on giving songwriting credit to someone who may or may not be deserving of it, all you have to do is determine how much of your copyright (property) you would like to give away.
50%? 25%? More, or less? Totally up to you.

Just understand you will now be co-owners on a piece of intellectual property, in perpetuity. You can't do anything with the song without your co-writer's approval or blessing. A movie studio wants to put your song in a feature film, but your "cowriter" won't agree to the contract? It's dead in the water.

I applaud the moral position driving your thought process, but the business side of it doesn't make sense. One of my old publishers had a plaque on his desk that said "Emotion + Business = Big Mistakes".

I'll also say this, as someone who feeds his family by writing songs. If I were to make a melodic suggestion on your song, and you offered me co-writing credit, I wouldn't take it. Because I (and this is me personally) don't want my name on anything that I don't feel like I made a significant contribution to.

Follow your own conscience on this, I hope I'm not backseat driving. I just think you should have all the information to consider that you can get.

Roger, thanks for that. What if the rights were assigned to a publishing company that I owned 100% of. Would my guy have a say in whether a not a piece was placed? I'm talking about the rights to the composition, no matter who recorded it...not necessarily the rights to the audio that will eventually likely make its way to the showcase here.

Possibly, but there's no obligation (or real incentive) for the prospective cowriter to give you their share of the publishing. Again, once you give writing credit, you have given away property. In that scenario, if I'm the co-writer, there's no way I'd give you my publishing. The way the royalty structure on a song works, half of the revenue is the writer share and the other half is the publishing share. So on a 50/50 co-write, each writer's royalties are 25% of the total, the other 25% being the publishing share.
Asking someone to give you their publishing is asking them to relinquish half of their potential income. No way in hell I would do that.
Again, and I say this very respectfully....you're trying to be very kind and generous in a business setting - that's rarely a good move. It's called the music business, not music benevolence.
As I read what I've responded with to you, I recognize that some of it may come across as harsh or greedy....but when art and commerce intersect, it's a pretty big collision. For years and years, I had to swallow bitter pill after bitter pill because songwriters are, and always have been, the lowest rung on the music business ladder and consequently get stepped on the most. I've seen a lot of peers and friends make really bad business decisions that effected them for the rest of their lives. Perhaps I err too much on the side of "keeping what's yours", but it's because of how many repeated times I've seen songwriters duped in business dealings because it's our nature to consider what we do "art", when everyone else in the business views what we do as "commerce".

Quote: I had to swallow bitter pill after bitter pill because songwriters are, and always have been, the lowest rung on the music business ladder and consequently get stepped on the most. I've seen a lot of peers and friends make really bad business decisions that effected them for the rest of their lives. Perhaps I err too much on the side of "keeping what's yours", but it's because of how many repeated times I've seen songwriters duped in business dealings because it's our nature to consider what we do "art", when everyone else in the business views what we do as "commerce".

This. Roger is correct. The people who want to be in the music business who end up most successful, if successful means able to earn a living (to some that is not the definition, but I digress) are usually the people who are good at both the music and the business.

When you hire a musician in a work for hire agreement, the only "right thing" is that you own the music and the musician got paid and doesn't own it.

Great, great example: Carol Kaye. Most in demand bass player in session history. She is responsible for more iconic bass lines in the pop songs of the 60's that I care to list here.

Take the time to watch the documentary film The Wrecking Crew. In it she describes how she would go to a session and they would have charts for her. She would think they were boring and would often create her own lines. Nancy Sinatra's These Boots are Made for Walking.... that's Carol's bass line. Sonny & Cher, The Beach Boys, the Temptations..... all among her clients and all have classic bass lines that she invented on the spot for them. She got a paycheck and that's the end of it. She probably didn't get any credit on the album other than Bass: C.Kaye.

You have no obligation to even mention them. If you want to, you can.

And when it comes to myself....If I hire someone, and I have, they don't get any credit or share of the income from the commercial use I make of the song. All the publisher or library want to know from me is that I own 100% of the master rights and have signed agreements with any one else on the music and can legally represent the music in full.

Tangmo,

If you simply string together a chord progression and then try to rip off session musicians to put together a melody and claim it's your own, you are nothing more than a thief.

Either write a complete song and then hire session musicians to improvise around it or don't take other people's ideas and claim they're yours.

I can't believe this discussion has progressed to where it has without someone pointing that out for you. You know it's wrong or you wouldn't have asked the question.

Here's a famous example that illustrates this thread's topic.

The band released this song a couple of years before the next two recordings.

Paul wrote the majority of this song (contrary to what most think). He comes up with quite the chord change sequence after "went into a dream". (It's the "ah" part.) Paul threw in some notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Dh-I0_m5Y "A Day In The Life" Beatles

Joe South wrote quite a good rocker based on that chord sequence, adding some notes here and there, and a good beat. He sings "nah, nah, nah, nah". (See how he added the "n" to change things up!)


Joe South was a brilliant songwriter (IMO), one of my favs.

Paul was a brilliant songwriter, one of my favs. In addition, he was one of the two most famous (and powerful) songwriters in the world at that time.

"Hush" is credited solely to Joe South. If any songwriter could ever have claimed copyright infringement due to a chord sequence, that would have been the time and the claimant.

Here's Joe South's superior original (IMO) of "Hush" and the biggest cover hit by Deep Purple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M9se64HoTg "Hush" Joe South

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1PNvopXjbg "Hush" Deep Purple

If anybody is interested, here's the "request" I made at Fiverr.

I'm looking for a flutist (or other wind instrument) familiar with, and competent in, the Byzantine scale for an approximately three minute piece harmonized to that scale in a hard-rock/metal setting. The piece is designed to show off the possibilities of the Byzantine scale, but I don't want endless scale runs. I'd like a coherent, melodic lead-line that uses only notes found in the scale and based off of chord tones. The enclosed sample is a rendering of the body of the piece. An intro may be added later if there is any interest at Fiverr. I'm not in a hurry and don't mind if you aren't either, if you understand the project.

Do I need to explain on a forum heavily populated with musicians the difference between a "melody" and a "melodic lead line"?

I'll admit the first time I read that, I was pretty steamed. But I calmed down and thought about a little while. I thought to myself, 'Surely Bob could not have actually read my posts in this thread and come to the conclusion that I was intending to do any such thing. Indeed, it should have been obvious that I was trying to find out how to do the exact opposite of that. Therefor, logically, he must have some other reason for making a post that strongly appears to be an attempt to accuse, judge, and re-educate me.'

*************************

I'm not an "OK, man...whatever" kinda hippy. I'm a sharp-tongued, clear-eyed, kick-[*****] kinda hippy. Being decent IS good business.

I want to do the "right" thing so I can sleep at night. The facts are: IF my guy composes (even on the fly) an actual melody for this piece, HE is the one who should copyright it, and I (Tangmo) am the one who should be asking for a share. I could register all day, but I cannot claim ownership on anything but the MASTER--the recording. It would be the melody HE WROTE that even IS copyright-able.

And if, all alone, it sounds like a melody (and maybe even if it doesn't) I'm going to tell HIM that.

It doesn't matter what the law "allows". If it allows me to pay for a melody and claim credit...it also allows me to do differently. I am not properly set up to do either.

It doesn't matter if he wrote a melody as a work-for-hire. In my position, I can tell the law to suck it.

If you want to help me do that with links that discuss the current realities, so I can turn a hobby into an avocation, feel free. Google has not been helpful. Everything so far is either snippets attached to a service being sold, or so old that it mentions CDBaby still acting as a CD Wharehouse. I don't expect I'll find any info that suggests I do what I want...I'll settle for info that gives me the ammo necessary to do what I want.

Tangmo.... your very next post puts you over 1000 posts.... nice milestone to hit.


Secondly.... do what you want with regard to credits on any album liners or whatever. Unless it's on an album, there's generally no place to give credit anyway.
Simply list the studio musicians on each song. Many of the albums I have did that. Guests that were not in the band would set in and play and they were given credit for their work. I have no clue what kind of agreement they signed but I can guarantee you this... they did sign an agreement and they stuck to the terms in it as far as ownership and pay.

Generally speaking, if a musician is paid a fee to play on a recording, it is a tacit waiving of ownership of a part of the song. It's double dipping otherwise.

Tangmo,

I gave the whole thread a quick read through and I posted my thoughts about it. If you're looking for a debate then just keep on looking because I'm not interested in participating.

My initial response is the same as it is now. The impression I got is that you came up with a chord progression and wanted other people to play over it so you could take their ideas and flesh out a melody.

I couldn't possibly care less about what you do. Don't post things if you want to take issue with other people's responses when it's not what you want to hear.

Take care.