Here we go again, a decade later
I deleted my post from yesterday about this primarily because there are so many other issues that are far more important that are weighing on my mind.
As I thought more about it, I concluded that all of those issues are beyond my control other than the right to vote this fall.
My original post about this problem was on 03/01/2010. Peter Gannon joined the debate and it lasted for a few days. To their credit, PG did isuue videos about a work around to address the problem about 4 years or so later. A "work around" should only be used when you are trying to do something that is outside of standard notation or tablature.
Something that isn't up for debate is how bluegrass music or fiddle tunes are notated. 99.9% of them are notated in 8th notes. The very few that are notated in 16th notes are done by people who have no understanding of the music. PG usually treats them as 16th notes.
So you may ask, "why is that a big deal?" I'll only offer one answer that should be more than sufficient. You can't take a piece of bluegrass sheet music music and enter it into BIAB as it is written in most so called bluegrass styles without using a work around.
I haven't upgraded BIAB since 2014 because of this issue. I don't plan on upgrading or recommending the program to ANYONE until this is corrected.
This may have been corrected in upgrades since then, but I'm not willing to spend hundreds of dollars to find out.
The default timing for bluegrass and most other acoustic music is 4/4 time and it's written in 8th notes. That should be reflected in all of the bluegrass or acoustic styles.
I hope that Peter Gannon weighs in on this as he did before.
Bob,
I don't read sheet music so I can't tell you if the issue is corrected or not. I hope someone can post it is because bluegrass and Band-in-a-Box otherwise complement each other like peanut butter and jelly.
Hello Bob, you have been gone a long time. However, I don't think things have changed that much in regards to you interest. Here is a brief peek at what is in BIAB 2020.
The very bottom chart is from Nov 2019
bobcflatpicker:
I don't know if you are aware of this forum article or not but it is worth the read if you have not seen it. Peter Gannon shows how to modify any existing 16th based bluegrass style into an 8th based style. He even offers one to download and install.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=120359&Searchpage=13&Main=18709&Words=Bluegrass&Search=true#Post120359I have been also griping about this for years now as I have been playing bluegrass since the early 70's.
Since it has been 11 years since I first brought this to their attention and it has not been corrected by PGMUSIC, I took it upon myself to modify my favorite bluegrass styles and saved them as I saw fit. I figured it was easier for me to spend about 1 hour doing this instead of waiting another 11 years for them to do it.
One can only hope.
bobcflatpicker:
I don't know if you are aware of this forum article or not but it is worth the read if you have not seen it. Peter Gannon shows how to modify any existing 16th based bluegrass style into an 8th based style. He even offers one to download and install.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=120359&Searchpage=13&Main=18709&Words=Bluegrass&Search=true#Post120359I have been also griping about this for years now as I have been playing bluegrass since the early 70's.
Since it has been 11 years since I first brought this to their attention and it has not been corrected by PGMUSIC, I took it upon myself to modify my favorite bluegrass styles and saved them as I saw fit. I figured it was easier for me to spend about 1 hour doing this instead of waiting another 11 years for them to do it.
One can only hope.
I would feel differently about it if I were asking them to do something outside of the box.
I'm just asking them to do it right.
Did I miss something here? I thought the issue was about "notation" not about tempo settings. I assume how the tracks actually play and sound is not an issue because it sounds like bluegrass to me.
But I don't want to open old wounds so, nevermind.
It's obvious that PG Music knows they have a demand for bluegrass styles or they wouldn't have created so many of them.
What is insulting is that they believe most of us won't realize they are substituting 16th notes instead of using 8th notes as transcribed in 99.9% of written bluegrass music.
Is BIAB unable to process these styles at faster tempos?
If that is the case, at least have the decency to say that's why you notate it incorrectly!
This was frustrating when I started a thread about it 10 years ago. It still hasn't been fixed. Does anyone want to take a guess about how it feels 10 years later?
Since there hasn't been a response from PG Music, I guess I should just accept they are never going to fix it.
It wouldn't be as bad if I hadn't praised PG Music for their outstanding customer service to friends and fellow musicians over the years.
What really sucks is that PG Music knows for a fact that what I'm saying is 100% correct. And still they refuse to correct it.
I'm done with PG Music as far as BIAB is concerned. I still have friends on the forum so I'll participate there to stay in touch with them. But I'll never again recommend the program to anyone.
Hi Bob. I don't know the first thing about bluegrass but I do have some information that may help.
I just loaded a demo that had most of the melody in 16th notes, and fixed it rather easily.
In the last couple of years with the new GUI, you do Edit, Song Form, Expand. [This was possible before, but the menu command changed in 2018; same function.] Expand doubles the length of the song, doubles the tempo, and makes the melody notated in mostly eighth notes as you want.
Then I went through the RealTracks that were playing frantically and changed each of them one by one to play Half-time. This feature has been possible for several years now.
What is more recent is something I asked for and got only a few years ago: the ability to alter the RealDrums the same way. You now have the option to make the RealDrums Half-time, which is needed in this example. Note that I had a similar reason to make this request like yours: all the BIAB sambas are written at tempos of around quarter = 200, when most sambas in the real world are composed in 2/2 time using tempos close to half = 100. Much easier to read!
Put it all together and it sounds adequate to me (but again, for bluegrass, I wouldn't really know).
So, to answer your original question, BIAB has not to my knowledge introduced styles that meet your request, but it DOES now have the tools necessary to construct them, if a bit awkwardly.
And has anyone made the request in the Wishlist in the last two years, now that we do have a half-time option in RealDrums? Worth a try.
Matt,
Thanks for your response. I did post this issue on the Wish List before I started a thread on the Off Topic forum 10 years ago.
It's not that this problem is an unknown issue. PG Music including Peter Gannon have been aware of it for more than a decade.
Awkward work around's just aren't the same as doing it right in the first place.
I hope you and yours are doing well through these troubling times.
Doing fine, Bob, except for not playing any concerts!
So I’m confused. Did you also post this recently in the Wishlist? Or just ten years ago? My point is that BIAB should now be able to do this easily, since the addition of timebase changes in both RealTracks and now RealDrums.
I will pass a message on to the developers anyway. If you have a recent request in the Wishlist with a good problem description, please post the link here. Otherwise I’ll just link to this thread.
Stay well.
Matt,
I haven't posted it on the wish list recently. Just more than a decade ago and then I started the thread in March of 2010 on the Off Topic forum.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could get the developers to correct this or at least give a serious look at it.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Bobflatpicker March 01, 2010 thread:
+++ BIAB and its HUGE problem in handling bluegrass/newgrass/jazzgrass/Dawg +++June 11, 2010 follow up thread:
+++ Bluegrass styles in 8th notes, tempo ranges from 160-220 +++There is one quote from the original request that is worth repeating.
This has kept a lot of my friends from buying BIAB because when I show it to them, they are impressed by its capabilities but say “they don’t understand bluegrass”, and they are right.
+1 in support of the request.
Jim, Bob and others: I did report this to the developers yesterday.
It's worth taking the time to read through the thread Bobflatpicker started a decade ago. It is a nice, civil discussion with input from current members like Notes Norton, Jford and Silvertones but also from former members like Mac.
Peter Gannon made a comment about the midi bluegrass styles worth repeating:
BTW, most if not all of the MIDI bluegrass, newgrass etc. styles that we've done (even and swing) were played in live on MIDI instruments (typically MIDI guitar), and not quantized.
Seems like we were using SuperMidiTracks before they were famous!
Two things stick out in re-reading these old threads.
1. From PG Music themselves: From Mr. Gannon: "We should have a converter, that takes any style and changes it (save-as) from 8th note based to 16th (or vice versa). Then all of the bluegrass styles would be available as 8th or 16th. I'll add that to the to do list."
This was back in 2010. Ten years later, we still don't have this 'converter' they were going to put on the To Do list.
2. "BB doesn't support 2/2 notation, so we write the notation in 4/4, with 16th notes."
Go to TablEdit.Com and look at the bluegrass tabs. I personally have hundreds and hundreds of them written in 4/4 time using 8th notes for the most part and playing at between 140 to 260 BPM, depending on the song. I have been playing bluegrass since back in the very early 70's and have been taught by some of the best players around, some of them veteran studio musicians. I have 100+ bluegrass books in my collection, many of them going back to the mid 60's. I have 18 3" binders all filled with tabs and songs I have collected over my 50+ years, both Flatpick Guitar and Banjo. I have the entire Banjo News Letter collection dating back to 1973 full of tablatures and the entire Frets Magazine collection. All of the songs are written in 4/4 time using 8th notes per measure, not 16th notes.
Now no one is going to tell me that for the past 50 years I have been involved in bluegrass that all these teachers and all these books are wrong and PG Music is right.
The problem is that they DON'T understand how bluegrass is played or written. That is a fact. I saw that when I 1st started using BIAB back when it came on Floppy Disks. I put up with it simply because it plays correctly but it certainly is NOT written correctly for that genre.
The converter you talked about would be a godsend for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of bluegrass musicians throughout the world who love and use your product and faithfully return year after year to upgrade. I know I would.
Thanks to all who have weighed in on this. I do appreciate it.
To those who haven't weighed in I have a few simple questions.
What if your favorite musical style was notated wrong in BIAB? What if that had severe implications in how you would use BIAB? What if your beliefs were supported by almost 100% of written music?
What if you had supported their product by upgrading for almost 20 years in hopes they would eventually fix it?
How would you feel about that?
A friend of mine who is an excellent guitarist was approached by Mel Bay to do an instruction book/cd for fiddle tunes. He explained to them that he doesn't read music or use tab.
They told him "no problem. Just play the songs at tempo and then play them slow and we'll have someone notate/tab them." He did and they put out a book/cd combo. I bought the combo and was surprised to see that Mel Bay had notated it in 16th notes. I started to ask my friend about it and decided not to because I knew for a fact that the guy wouldn't know 16th note notation from 8th note notation since he doesn't use either. Everything he does is by ear.
That book is the only one I've ever seen that notates bluegrass/fiddle tunes/traditional music in 16ths. All of the others notate the styles in 8ths.
PG knows that creating these styles in 16ths is incorrect. It would be a simple fix for them to create all of those styles in 8ths and release it in the update at the end of the year. They wouldn't need to do away with the 16th styles, just duplicate those styles in 8ths as they should be.
That's really not much to ask of them. Especially since they know for a fact the current styles are incorrect. It's not even debatable at this point.
I would love to upgrade this winter when the new version is released but I'll never purchase or recommend another PG Music product until they fix it. I've been asking them to do it for over a decade.
I just want to be able to take a song “as written”, and enter the progression into BIAB and use bluegrass styles. These songs are written in 8th’s. We could debate swing 8th's versus even 8th's, but they are still 8th's.
I have been at it for a decade also, I started out a nice guy
I remember opening bluegrass songs in TablEdit and I think they were all as you described, though I'm not musical enough to get it all.
EDIT: I remember now that was the issue, I had to halve them to fit the Biab tracks.
This is the free TablEdit player
http://www.tabledit.com/tefview/download.shtmlyou can download free flatpicking etc.. .tef tabs
http://www.tabledit.com/links/tabarchives.shtmlhttp://www.flatpickingtabs.com/https://www.flatpickerhangout.com/http://www.flatpickingtabs.com/indianhills.htmjust google them...
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I can put a Biab 16ths 100bpm into Reaper at 200bpm 8ths.
So I can enter the notes correctly to fit the Biab tracks.
The midi from Biab is halved (set rate=0.5)
The chords are imported with mxml.
Because the tracks are at 100bpm 16 instead of 200bpm 8 you will only get a maximum of 2 chords per bar.
Will think about it more in the morning.
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We agree on the point that bluegrass melodies (and similar feels like reels) are typically written using 8th notes, not 16th notes (as BIAB does if you don’t choose edit-expand). This is because the tradition is to write the melodies in cut-time (2/2, also known as Alla breve). In Cut-time, each beat where you tap your foot is actually notated as a half note, to make it easier to read. It makes the notation easier to read, but it would be not advisable to implement that in an accompaniment program where you need to mix n match parts from different styles, because you'd be matching a quarter note with a half note. For example, chikin pickin guitar or other country styles are never notated like that in 8th notes, it's always 16ths, so you it would be awkward adding other parts to your 8th note based bluegrass style.
In my analysis, using 8th notes in bluegrass is called cut-time and 2/2 time signature, though they don’t write the 2/2. That has been done since the 1600s and the original name for it is alla breve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve It doesn't affect how the music is played, it just affects the appearance of the notation.
What BIAB needs is a mode to display the notation in cut time 2/2, and then you’d see 8th notes. In cut time each beat represents a half note. We did add notation modes like that for 6/8 9/8 and 12/8 but haven’t done cut time mode yet. That mode would be useful for styles like bluegrass, reels or sambas where you want the notation in cut-time (as if the tempo was doubled). Hopefully we can add that before the end of the year.
>That book is the only one I've ever seen that notates bluegrass/fiddle tunes/traditional music in 16ths. All of the others notate the styles in 8ths.
Note that many bluegrass musicians do notate with 16th notes. For example here is a page with different users uploading bluegrass riffs. You’ll note that most use 16th notes and not 8th notes.
https://www.soundslice.com/genres/bluegrass/examples
https://www.soundslice.com/slices/CVkcc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/cKMcc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/DlCcc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/XM9cc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/yj8cc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/skbcc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/FftNc/https://www.soundslice.com/slices/XjmVc/In the meantime:
1. for the last eight years we have an 8th note based bluegrass RealStyle _BGBAND8.m4a (typical tempo 270)
http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_BGBAND8.m4a 2. and for the last 18 years, we've had a 8th note based bluegrass MIDI style Ozark.sty (typical tempo 270)
http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Ozark.m4aBoth of those provide the functionality you are asking for. So that, for example, this statement.... "You can't take a piece of bluegrass sheet music music and enter it into BIAB as it is written in most so called bluegrass styles without using a work around" can be appended with .... unless you use an 8th note bluegrass Real style like _BGBAND8.sty or MIDI style like Ozark.sty. The melodies are notated in 8th notes, the tempos are high like 270 etc.
And by the way, when you listen to one of these styles, are you really tapping your foot (or counting them in) at tempo 270? I don't, it's 135 for me.
_BGBAND8 works alright with the tracks on halftime it will reduce the chord duration by half, generate, then expand the chord duration x2.
So that's basically doing what I was doing in Reaper.
If users from the bluegrass communities could record some UserTracks instruments 8th notes, tempo ranges from 160-220+.
Here's the current Bluegrass RealTracks Ev16 Tempo 100-140 (Ev8 200-280).
Name Instrument Type Feel Tempo* Genre # N/A Set Stereo Chart Artist TS Holds Simpler Available Direct Input Available
<None> Note: list is filtered by bluegrass 230 Mn
Guitar, Resonator, Rhythm Folk8thsRandy Ev 085 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 85 Folk,Country,Bluegrass 2645 263 Mn N Randy Kohrs 129
Mandolin, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Sw 085 Mandolin Rhythm Sw 85 Bluegrass,Country 1699 153 Mn Glen Duncan 208
Banjo, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Sw 085 Banjo (106) Rhythm Sw 85 Bluegrass,Country 1698 153 Mn Glen Duncan 207
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 598 33 St PG Artist Y 64
Guitar, Acoustic, Soloist Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic Guitar (26) Soloist Ev 100 Country 597 33 St N PG Artist Y 64
Mandolin, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 100 Country 599 33 St PG Artist Y 130
Bass, Acoustic Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 592 33 Mn Dow Tomlin Y 73 s
Mandolin Soloist Bluegrass Ev 100 Mandolin Soloist Ev 100 Country 820 62 St N Andy Leftwich Y 130
Mandolin Soloist Bluegrass Ev 100 (Bluesy) Mandolin Soloist Ev 100 Country 821 62 St N Andy Leftwich 130
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Rhythm - Simple) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 590 33 St Scott Vestal 120 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Rhythm) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 100 Country 589 33 St Scott Vestal Y 120 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Soloist) Banjo (106) Soloist Ev 100 Country 591 33 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 593 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Chops) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 594 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 (Shuffles) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 100 Country 595 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Fiddle, Soloist Bluegrass Doc Ev 100 Fiddle Soloist Ev 100 Country 596 33 St Andy Leftwich Y 75
Guitar, Resonator, Background CountryWaltzRandy Sw 110 Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Sw 110 Bluegrass,Country 2646 263 Mn N Randy Kohrs 129
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 431 11 St PG Artist Y 64
Guitar, Acoustic, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic Guitar (26) Soloist Ev 130 Country 435 12 St N PG Artist Y 64
Mandolin, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 130 Country 432 11 St PG Artist Y 130
Mandolin, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Mandolin Soloist Ev 130 Country 436 12 St N Andy Leftwich Y 130
Bass, Acoustic, Bluegrass Ev 130 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 427 11 Mn Dow Tomlin Y 81 s
Banjo, Bluegrass Ev 130 (Rhythm) Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 130 Country 426 11 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Banjo, Bluegrass Ev 130 (Soloist) Banjo (106) Soloist Ev 130 Country 433 12 St Scott Vestal Y 120
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 428 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 (Chops) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 429 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Rhythm Bluegrass Ev 130 (Shuffles) Fiddle Rhythm Ev 130 Country 430 11 St Andy Leftwich Y 75 s
Fiddle, Soloist Bluegrass Ev 130 Fiddle Soloist Ev 130 Country 434 12 St N Andy Leftwich Y 75
Guitar, Resonator, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Ev 140 Country 1297 121 Mn N Glen Duncan 129,129
Guitar, Resonator, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 (Outside) Acoustic Guitar (26) Background Ev 140 Country 1300 121 Mn N Glen Duncan 129,129
Guitar, Acoustic, Fingerpicking BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1108 96 Mn Gt Pat McGrath 100
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic Guitar (26) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1109 96 Mn Gt Pat McGrath 100
Bass, Acoustic, BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Acoustic String Bass (33) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1106 96 Mn N Byron House 117
Fiddle, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Fiddle Background Ev 140 Country 1107 96 Mn N Stuart Duncan 123 s
Fiddle, Background BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 (Outside) Fiddle Background Ev 140 Country 1144 96 Mn N Stuart Duncan 123,123 s
Banjo, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Banjo (106) Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1105 96 Mn Glen Duncan 128
Mandolin, Rhythm BluegrassWaltz Ev 140 Mandolin Rhythm Ev 140 Country 1110 96 Mn Jason Roller 130 s
> I have 18 3" binders all filled with tabs and songs I have collected over my 50+ years, both Flatpick Guitar and Banjo. I have the entire Banjo News Letter collection dating back to 1973 full of tablatures and the entire Frets Magazine collection. All of the songs are written in 4/4 time using 8th notes per measure, not 16th notes. Now no one is going to tell me that for the past 50 years I have been involved in bluegrass that all these teachers and all these books are wrong and PG Music is right.
Are you sure they weren’t using the cut-time signature mark (a C with a vertical line through it, indicating 2/2 time, with four 8th notes per beat), rather than just a C (indicating 4/4 time)?
Many of the bluegrass sheet music and instruction books I look at use 8th notes, but clearly label the time signature as “cut-time” which is 2/2. The cut time signature is a C with a vertical line through it. That doubles the displayed note values turning 16ths into 8ths and 8ths into quarter notes etc., so that it is easier to read. In that time signature, there are 4 eighth notes per beat and 2 beats per bar. But that isn’t 4/4 time, and if you want to write it in 4/4 time signature (as done in BIAB and most other styles of music) you need to use 16ths notes.
Using either time signature, the typical tempo of bluegrass is about 130 bpm, and not 260. If you don’t believe me, try counting in a bluegrass tune with your band at tempo 260 and see what happens!
For example, the Real Bluegrass Book
https://www.amazon.com/Real-Bluegrass-Bo...C310&sr=8-7( click "Look Inside" and scroll down to a tune like Alabama Jubilee and notice the cut-time 2/2 indicator)
If someone walked up to you and asked you to play some 16ths notes banjo riffs for him, would you answer that bluegrass banjo players would only rarely play 16ths notes, and typically play 8th notes, as seen in bluegrass music books?
As mentioned, we plan on coming up with a cut-time display mode before the end of the year, so that any notation could be displayed with 8th notes instead of 16ths, but that will just affect notation display and not affect the tempos or sound of the music.
Peter, I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion. While I’ll never be using the bluegrass styles, the same concept is involved for my preferred genre, samba. You helped me understand your thinking some years ago and I appreciate that. I think it was less clear in that case whether ‘most’ used cut time; I recall you asked me for examples because it wasn’t always obvious. I’ve also seen examples where the original was notated in cut time but fake book or pop versions write it in common time.
What really helped me was the addition of time base changes to RealDrums a few years back. I requested it. Now I can make anything work and I don’t consider that too difficult or time consuming. But whatever converter you might come up with for the bluegrass styles, please keep samba in mind as well. It could save a few minutes of experimenting. Thank you again.
Matt, Good point and yes, samba has that same issue (where the same speed of samba can be thought of as a tempo of 90 or 180 depending on the context. A converter and a cut-time display mode to show 8th notes instead of 16ths) would help out there.
Very cool. And Bob should be happy and upgrade.
As an aside, my drummer for many years was Joel Rosenblatt. Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power and is now doing New York City work (including Hamilton). He was very gracious with me as I counted off samba tunes in 4/4 because I had composed them in BIAB! But he helped me to understand how I should be doing it.
btw) if you want any style that is done at a tempo of say 120, to work at double tempo (240), you change the timebase of the tracks at the top to half-time, and then it works.
for example, _YEEHAW.sty is a tempo 130 bluegrass style,
to change timebase of a song or a style......
and if you instead want it to work at a tempo of 260 so it shows eighth notes, you use the radio buttons at the top and set each track of the song to "half-time" and then it will play fine as 8th notes at 260. Then you can choose File-StyleMaker- save song as style and you'll get a style that will always play like that. For example, save it as _YEEHAW8.sty
If you prefer to just work in the stylemaker to begin with....
to change a style ....
You can also edit the style like that (menu-file-stylemaker-edit Ctrl-Shift-F9) to open the stylemaker.
1. for RealTracks, RealDrums and MIDI SuperTracks...press MISC and MORE and then change the timebase of each track to HALF TIME, and save-as the style with a new name like _YEEHAW8 and then that style will always play at double tempo.
2. For MIDI tracks in the style, use the menu item Style-Expand Style (to 8th notes).
Right, I do just that. It wasn’t fully possible until RealDrums had the timebase adjustment to match whet RealTracks could do.
If PG Music or users made those converted styles, could they be made available to all? I might give some samba styles a try.
>As an aside, my drummer for many years was Joel Rosenblatt. Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power and is now doing New York City work (including Hamilton). He was very gracious with me as I counted off samba tunes in 4/4 because I had composed them in BIAB! But he helped me to understand how I should be doing it.
Matt,
Thanks. Would your drummer call this tempo=200 or tempo=100?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7EDPldTuwIt looks like the dance studios refer to the samba tempos based on 16th notes and would call that 100.
https://arthurmurraystudios.com/latin-dance-tempos/"there are two main styles of Samba: International and American. In the American style, it is performed at 104 beats per minute for pros and amateurs. The International Samba is performed slower, at 96 to 100 beats per minute."
The 2013 dance final video, right?
Pretty sure he would call that 100. I would.
On my 2006 CD I have a Samba composition at 113. Romero Lubambo put down the original tracks at 110 but we decided to speed it a bit when we got to the studio to add the rest of the band. That’s probably the fastest samba I play regularly. But my book has tunes from 90 to over 120, and then 180 to mid 200s. Most of the ones in the upper range are because I wrote or transcribed them on BIAB before I started changing to cut time.
Peter: It's all over the place with no standardized notation. Many of the books don't even have notation, just tablature. Some have 4/4 time with no cut-time or common time symbol, some have 2/4 time with a cut-time symbol, some have 4/4 time with common time symbol.
Earl Scruggs definitive book on Bluegrass Banjo has them as 2/4 time with the cut-time symbol but that seems to be the exception in my collection. Janet Davis's excellent book on Melodic Bluegrass Banjo from Mel Bay is all 8th based notes with 4/4 time signatures. All 12 volumes on flatpick guitar from Flatpick Guitar Magazine are all showing as 8th based notes using 4/4 time. Steve Kaufman's 406 page book on American Fiddle Tunes from Mel Bay has over 300 songs all notated in 4/4 time with 8th notes.
I understand where you are coming from and the BIAB way of notating does not bother me at all since I have quite a few years (50+) under my belt playing banjo, guitar and bass.
Interesting note that PG Music's old program, Master Flatpick Guitar Solo's, which I bought decades ago, has some of their songs, in notation mode, showing as 8th based notes with no cut-time symbol and some has 16th based notes also with no cut-time symbol.
All that being said, the new cut-time display mode will be a welcome addition to this already fantastic program I have been using since the days of floppy disks.
Keep 'em coming.
Joel played 13 years with Spyro Gyra, then Tower of Power
Really? What years? As closely as I have followed TOP I don't remember him ever playing with them. I know Spyro Gyra and that he's played with Blood Sweat and Tears for like 10 years now.
>All that being said, the new cut-time display mode will be a welcome addition to this already fantastic program I have been using since the days of floppy disks.
Thanks.
Hello Peter,
Thank you for joining the discussion. I think you may have came up with a way to address the problem.
I sure hope you can get it included in the winter upgrade. I'd love to be able to get up to date with BIAB.
Thanks again.
> I sure hope you can get it included in the winter upgrade. I'd love to be able to get up to date with BIAB.
Bob,
Great. Sounds like a plan!
Whoever posted the jpg of the BIAB Bluegrass, do you still have that file? I'd love to get it and play with it some. To say I am unfamiliar with the genre would be like saying Ft Knox is a little bank in Kentucky.
Here is why I am at a loss to grasp this whole conversation. In one breath, I hear "We need BIAB to write in 1/8th notes." And in the next breath "Bluegrass players don't read music or play charts." If that is the case, you must be playing by ear. So how does your ear know if the music is written in 1/8th or 1/16th notes? And why does it matter as far as printing music out? I am interested in this discussion but lost as to what the origins and logic are.
The example I referred to above I viewed and it says it was in 70 bpm. What happens if you make it 140 bpm?
The disclaimer here is that I have never used BIAB, always RB, and never written anything that wasn't 110-140bpm groove kind of music that didn't require that fast chicken-pickin' kind of thing that Bluegrass is.