Need help/advice from a drummer

Posted by: Planobilly

Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/14/20 10:04 AM

Hi,

The intro to this song I did on a little AKAI MPK keyboard with drum pad.

As you can see I am not a drummer. Where the vocal happens I want hits on a rivvit cymbal or a open and closed Hi Hat to produce a sizzle sound. Can this be done in any software? Any software kits with a rivvit cymbal?

I wish I had a Hi Hat setting here...I could play it live.

https://soundcloud.com/planobilly/mixdown-1/s-FaPVyB0tsw6

Thanks,


Billy
Posted by: dcuny

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/14/20 01:50 PM

In addition to open and closed, you can have a half-open hihat. That'll give you a sloshy sort of sound.

This might be the sound you're after - an almost closed hihat being struck.

You can also play the hihat without hitting it with a stick, just by opening and closing the hats with the foot pedal.

Depending on how wide you've got the hihat open, you'll get different sounds.

As far as a cymbal goes, you might get the sound you're after from a jazz kit.

The Toontrack Americana kit has a Sizzle Ride in the kit, but it doesn't have much "sizzle" to my ears.
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/14/20 02:15 PM

Thanks David,

The sound I want a drummer would produce on a Hi Hat. I normally hear them call that a sizzle effect. It is generally created in a pattern with a closed then a partially open Hi Hat. Perhaps the sizzle sound comes first the two hits on the closed Hat. Typically done in a shuffle rhythm.

Something sort of like that can be done on a rivet cymbal but for sure not the same sort of sound.

My issue is I don't have a acoustic drum kit. I am not a drummer but I could play that few measures that I want.

I am trying to get around the issue with software and I have Toontracks Americana. I will go take a look.

I have a hard time to justify hiring a drummer to just play four measures. I thank it may be cheaper to buy a Hi Hat!

Billy

EDIT: Just saw a DW 3000 used for 50 bucks.
Posted by: dcuny

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/14/20 04:16 PM

I suspect you'll be able to find an appropriate sample if you look.

Good luck!
Posted by: Guitarhacker

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 08:39 AM

check out some of the drum synths. Most of the better ones are going to have a fully supported website and a forum. Go in and ask the users or contact the company support line and ask your questions.

It's amazing the stuff that can be done in some of the synths. IIRC, Jamstix will let you do real drum rolls on snare and other parts of the kit that doesn't sound like a machine gun.... it sounds like a real drummer doing a roll. I've used NI's Battery to do cymbal rolls that were with mallets and built to a crescendo.

Check around.
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 09:15 AM

Thanks Herb,

I will check that out. I have a friend who is a collector of drum kits. At last count I think he has over two hundred kits. He is sending me a Hi Hat with 22" Zildjain cymbals.

I also have been considering buying a Midi drum kit. They don't make any real noise and fold up into a pretty small space. I'm not a drummer. I don't have the coordination to play a drum kit. I can do things one or two kit pieces at a time. And with a midi kit sorting out the mistakes is not too hard.

Cheers,

Billy
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 09:44 AM

Hi Billy,

Bing/google free VSTi drum kits and you will find a number of them. You may find something that sounds like the kit you want.

Also check out Groovemokee drum MIDI loops:

groovemonkee.com

They have a tremendous about of MIDI drum loops in just about any genre you want. They are not quantize and are played by real drummers on a MIDI drum kit. A drum loop package is separated in divisions like intro, verse, chorus, etc with a number of loops in each division. In Studio One Pro it is an easy drag and drop method to get them into my DAW. I have a most of groovemonkee loops.
Posted by: dcuny

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 10:00 AM

A midi drum is a compromise - most of the sounds are going to be there, but not all of them. For example, not all midi drum kits are going to support splashing the hi-hats.

Have you considered finger drumming? You can do it directly from the keyboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlk9s5gPgXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmOfvq9h1OU

You can also do it from a pad, which seems to be the favored what of doing it these days.

Not that there's anything wrong with learning "real" drums, of course! I've got a couple kits myself. But if you're already got your keyboard set up, it's just a matter of getting a nice kit. I haven't tried this one yet but it looks good:

https://stevenslatedrums.com/ssd-free/
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 10:23 AM

Is the issue here the sound or the ability to tap in a drum part? I can't tap in drums worth a darn because I am not anything approaching a drummer. Can't even visualize drums.
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 01:23 PM

Hi guys,

To David's comment, actually I would prefer a acoustic drum kit. a mid 1960's Sonar and also while we are at it a Gretsch of the same vintage...lol I just don't have the room or the money for that! I do have the room for the Hi Hat and a midi kit would do most everything else. I also currently have a small drum pad on a AKAI keyboard. I can put the kick and the snare where I need them,more or less, but I have not found a way to close the Hi Hat to make it "sizzle".

To Mario's comment, thanks, I also have a good bit of grovemonkey stuff. I have EZDrummer, Addictive Drums, and several other drum programs. I find them pretty difficult to use. In some ways they are like BIAB, what you want may in fact be there. Finding it becomes the issue.

To Eddie...It is in this case only about sound and a certain technique to produce it. It is not super difficult to learn to do on a Hi Hat. Most any drummer would know how. The sound in question is produced by closing and striking the the Hat while opening it very slightly so that both cymbals vibrate against one another. The pattern of closed hits interspersed with the "sizzle" sound defines what one is looking for. It would take me about ten seconds to show you and the rest of the day to explain it writing...lol

I really don't understand why we are still operating in the stone age on all the forums. We have free video/audio tools to use.

Cheers,


Billy
Posted by: Janice & Bud

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Planobilly


I really don't understand why we are still operating in the stone age on all the forums. We have free video/audio tools to use.

Cheers,


Billy


Huh? I must have seriously missed something.

J&B
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 04:36 PM

Hi Bud,

My point is we are generally dealing with issues of how to operate BIAB and other software. We are also dealing with how to play certain things on drums, guitars, piano, and so on.

What takes a huge amount of time to communicate in writing what can be communicated in minutes or seconds via video in many cases.

You see and hear the other person and the sounds they are making. It is a way to interact that is available to many of us at no extra cost. Depending on where you live in the world the bandwidth needed to do this can cost more. So in those places it may not be viable.

Programs like Skype and Zoom and google duo are free and give us the opportunity to discuss things live in real time, one on one or in a group. It is not exactly like all showing up to someone's house, but it is the next best thing. It changes the whole relationship. You get to know people on a much more personal level. Friendships develop, meetings in person are an outcome that sometimes happens even when the two people are in different parts of the world and there are ways to do that safely.

I met a guy on a forum who plays bass. We played together on Skype. He lives in Italy. In the course of us playing together his kids and wife came into view at times. I got to meet them. When I went to Europe the last time we all met up and had a wonderful time together. Same thing with a guy I met from Canada. When he came to Florida he came to visit me. We rented motorbikes and went to the keys. Fun stuff.

I totally get that some people want to be anonymous. Nothing wrong with that.

What I would like to see is a video chat box for people who would like to use it in forum software. It does exist. This is a global request having nothing specifically to do with BIAB forum. It is not rocket science and it would not be very expensive in most cases.

Cheers,

Billy
Posted by: Janice & Bud

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 06:06 PM

Guess I’m the consummate imposer of self contradictions. I’m tech oriented to a substantial degree for my age. And the contradiction? Well, for example, if I want to learn about multi-band compression I’d hugely rather read a good article on it than watch a video. If I want to learn how to bleed the brakes on my mountain bike — same thing. Makes zero sense. But with me there’s ample precedent for that. smile

Bud
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/19/20 07:14 PM

I have seen what to me at least is pretty strange ways of communicating. Two girls setting at Starbucks for more than thirty minutes at a table one foot across texting to one another.

I ask my resident teenager consultant about the issue. She said it is the prefered way to communicate and the most fun. It did not require a lot of understanding of the English language and the ideas were more inferred than described.

How someone finds learning new things is different for any one person. I had two Phds in linguistics teach me Spanish. The first thing they did was test me to see what type of learning method worked the best. Visual, speaking to me, reading, writing and so forth.

I have read a substantial number of books trying to learn something new and in general is my prefered method also. I get irritated pretty fast with the youtube videos explaining something when I am two minutes into the video and the person has not said a word about the subject matter at hand...lol If I could talk to this person and I could see what he was doing I would say to him "look man, all I want to know is where the any key is"...lol Press any key, I assume you get the joke...lol On the other hand, it is much easier for me to watch someone's hands on a guitar than have it explained in a book, even in standard notation.

My desire for video contact has been exacerbated by the Covid-19 issue and exposure to the now widely accepted use of video telemedicine.

We are becoming more isolated by the minute, especially here in the United States. It is not safe to go listen or play indoor live music. It's not safe to go to our friends house.

Many of us are relegated to living vicariously through the internet at this point in our lives for many reasons.

If not for Covid-19 this conversation would have never taken place because at this time of year I would have been in Europe seeing my friends live and in color...lol Eating altogether too much ice cream and drinking way too much Italian coffee...lol Playing some music, walking around in the plazzas listening to live music and generally being social.

I'll come back around to the original post idea, a desire for a certain drum sound. I could have described that over video and people would have understood what I was looking for without issue in seconds.

The best to everyone who may be struggling with the isolation of Covid-19.

Billy
Posted by: dcuny

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/30/20 01:18 AM

Too late to help, but I was playing on the MODO Drums tonight, and noticed a nice sloshy half-open hi-hat on the Bb a full step below the standard kick on C. Toontrack appears to map them to the lowest octave, two octaves below the kick, and Jamstix seems to have it mapped to the G# an octave above the closed hi-hat.
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Need help/advice from a drummer - 10/30/20 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: dcuny
Too late to help, but I was playing on the MODO Drums tonight, and noticed a nice sloshy half-open hi-hat on the Bb a full step below the standard kick on C. Toontrack appears to map them to the lowest octave, two octaves below the kick, and Jamstix seems to have it mapped to the G# an octave above the closed hi-hat.


Good to know in any event. The Hi Hat hardware has arrived but not the cymbals.

Thanks David.