Biab 2021

Posted by: beatmaster

Biab 2021 - 07/21/21 03:25 PM

Just cancelled my cross grade to 2021 mac version , I hope by now i can give a a view to my honest opinion without being shot down (I'm ducking anyway ).

I know utility tracks etc . have been added and so on !. but sorry its the same old , same old styles patterns !

We have had year on and year on , its not getting the even modern basics for song writers !, its a brilliant programme .as in what we can do ...enter chords and the musicians play them Wow ! . But that was back then and this is now .

Believe me this is no way a negative post, this is a constructive one !!.

Listen really listen to the new real tracks and styles , Brilliant for Americana, country etc.

I posted a song using my midi keyboard and my Roland Bk 7 m module !! a few comments i got where ...ah ! they copy styles of songs?artist etc for live gigging ?. Even from a PG Music staff !!. so does PG music for heavens sake if your an america/ country writer Yea all good !!.

A don't think the age group on the users of Biab is an Issue , i believe its stuck in its core as in when it was produced / commercialiased to a software programme .

I hear great work on the user showcase forum , Brilliant stuff , but I'm sorry i listen and every time i go Wow !! be brilliant if the chorus section had more of an uplifting effect than what it has at the moment !.



Just my tuppence worth as they say here in my Homeland , 2021 was not good at all to me !!.

Again please respect my opinion !! as i have felt this for a long time ! . I see posts of many songs and most time i listen and hear the same old guitar bass and drum styles etc > .aAnd wonderful performances as in the vocals the lyrics and i honestly i know the song is much better if only !!.


Again please respect my opinion ! .
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/21/21 03:52 PM

I will piggyback on this, though what I am about to add probably belongs in the Wish List area, but it's time to get some new players to do the real tracks. I don't know how well the artists are compensated, but I saw Covid as a great opportunity to recruit some "newer thinking" studio players to provide tracks. They had no work. Touring artists as well. This comes from someone who has no idea about the parameters of how those people provide those tracks, but man, Paul Franklin, John Jarvis, Brent Mason.. it's all same old. I see a real need for new blood in those Real Tracks. It may just be too expensive, but 18 months went by when those guys weren't busy.

A related story. Just to be a clown, which I usually am, I sent a Tweet to Eric Marienthal saying "Hey thanks for providing the sax solo on one of my songs." He Tweeted back something close to "Who are you?" (I cleaned that up) and I explained that I used BIAB/RB and I pieced together a solo based on the snippets he supplied to PG. He responded "Oh man that was SO long ago I barely remember doing it." That kind of sums up what the OP addressed.

2021 now.

How about this?

How about some Matt Finley trumpet tracks? Some Dave Snyder guitar tracks? Some Notes Norton sax tracks? Some Herb Hartley? Some Roger Jackson? Each of those people play very well with a flair and style that is unique to them. Herb did a solo for me that was like Carlos Santana coming to my home. Rog has a lot of bluesy taste. Matt plays his Latin rhythm chops really well. (His CD was great, BTW.) Dave plays every style (And has a WICKED sense of humor!!) and his work has a certain "playfulness" in it.

Salt and pepper are great on chicken and eggs (no matter which came first) until the first time you try smoked paprika!
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/21/21 04:10 PM

Beatmaster,
while I agree to a degree to some points you made...

Check this out:
I do not view BIAB as a program that will write music for me. It is a flexible tool with a lot of very interesting content. While YES, there is certain inclination toward community favorable genres, however (for me) there is a loaded elephant worth of very usable content. I am not shielding anybody or anything, this is my experience and opinion. BIAB is unique tool and because of that it's natural for it to have weaknesses, but benefits overweigh them by far for me.

Do I have requests..? Sure I do!
Winds, Reggae, Ska, cellos, sitar, straight rhythm brass and about 20 other items big and small as far as software goes smile

But again, for reasonably priced software I feel I am getting a bargain, even if I use only 5% of new yearly content.


M.
Posted by: Rob Helms

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/21/21 06:19 PM

I see BM's point, and i agree with RSpoon. Eddie just cracks me up. Anyway (Hey Eddie those are some great suggestions all ribbing aside)here is my take. BiaB can get somewhat stale if you don't change it up some, (kinda Misha's point) if you take a nice Style, and switch out a couple instruments, maybe do a mid song style swap and back you can get some really cool stuff out of it. Roll your own styles just start with a blank no style canvas and audition some cool midi and RTs mix some together and save your own style.

Finally add tracks in from other sources other software. play a couple yourself.None of this is meant to argue agains BMs point just to offer some encouragement to what does PG always say, oh yeah "Have Fun"!
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/21/21 07:16 PM

I'm gonna have to agree with beatmaster here. For the past few years it seems we get more of the same RealTracks with every upgrade. And I have reached the point where I seriously consider skipping further upgrades.

Until lately I have continued to have a lot of fun with each year's new RealTracks but I'm kinda in a bit of a rut and it seems so is BIAB.

So yeah I would really love to see some exciting new RealTrack directions. We have enough jazz, country and polka!

And to those eternal optimists who love to BIAB'splain that you can do anything with BIAB if we just put in the additional effort, I would remind them that we understand that and we know we have lots of other options with real instruments or VSTs.

But the value BIAB brings is in being able to prototype (or even finish) a complete song WITHOUT all that additional work!

So, when someone asks for new RealTracks for modern music they're not looking for a complex process by which BIAB can do this! They're hoping to be able to put together a modern song as swiftly as we can now for jazz, country or polka!
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 07:10 AM

I agree with everyone here. crazy
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

Winds, Reggae, Ska, cellos, sitar, straight rhythm brass and about 20 other items


I just went into Real Band, put in the Bob Marley classic "Is This Love" as my song title that was supposed to give me similar styles.

Not one of them was even close, and none were really useable. Nothing at all like Is This Love.

I also tested with Might Might Bosstones, Sublime, and Reel Big Phish. Again, nothing really of any value.

Reggae and Ska are sadly and sorely under-represented.
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 11:22 AM

Rustyspoon .....see this is whats wrong even in the forum !! you post .. I do not view BIAB as a program that will write music for me !!.


Then what is it !. Take a look at the videos that promote Biab to first timers !


Also i never said it didn't have in your words a loaded elephant worth of very usable content .

While YES, there is certain inclination toward community favorable genres..... What!! Thats not what i was posting Across the globe not community !!

It needs to get more modern real tracks and as posted earlier by Eddie that means players !


Also see that your on the showcase awards list , so you got it free Well thats worth it aint it !!!
Posted by: rharv

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 02:34 PM

To be fair, I'm pretty sure he had to own it BEFORE he entered the contest to get anything free.
So he's invested apparently, at least historically ..
Posted by: ROG

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 03:40 PM

If the question is, do we need more Realtracks and more variety, then the answer is almost always going to be YES.

Sometimes though, with around 3K RTs on the system, I wonder how many of us actually know what we've got already.
The problem with having this number of RTs is compounded by the descriptions - nothing wrong with them in themselves,
but it's hard to accurately convey a performance in three or four words. I tend to work in Realband and I often find that
I'm piecing together several RTs, all from radically different genres, but ones which still seem to work for the song.
I mean, how many people who might be doing a rock track bother to check out country guitar RTs, but sometimes the descriptions
can be misleading and the track may be just right.

I remember when I got a DX7 and I knew what all the 32 voices sounded like. A few years later we had keyboards with 1000 voices
and I hardly knew five percent of them. Now it's the same with RTs.

So, is the problem really that we don't have enough RTs and genres, or just that we don't have time to audition them all?

Just a thought...
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: ROG
The problem with having this number of RTs is compounded by the descriptions - nothing wrong with them in themselves, but it's hard to accurately convey a performance in three or four words.


My thought is this. Just to check, I just went through the path of Generate => Real Tracks and put in rock guitar. I don't know how many tracks came up, but it was maybe 12 names, many of whom are not relevant in 2021. One guy I never heard of has to be listed like 100 times. Do we need 100 options for THAT guy playing guitar, or would we benefit more from 20 options by each of 5 guys?

I liken it to this. The band I am in could really use to replace 2 of the players with better players. However, the power brokers of the band are SO lazy that they would rather ride it out with these 2 guys who can't play than have to go through the trouble of recruiting and auditioning to find better. It is hard to find better "things" when you don't bother to look for them.

There is a long list of musicians who had zero income in 2020. Like major touring dudes. And now they are scrambling for anything they can find to try and recover. Brian Culbertson took to streaming (His stream is GREAT, BTW) and creating a membership based "Hang Club" that gives different levels of access to him. This is a guy with 20 albums and normally a busy touring schedule. He has turned to heavily promoting his merch, selling paintings he does (that all look the same), t-shirts, caps... Now if a guy at THAT level is so hungry to recover a loss of many dollars in 2020, it is extremely likely that the studio dudes who were unemployed for that year are too. Did anybody approach any of them, or is it just like the band saying "It's easier to just ride with what we have though if we worked at it we could find better"?
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/22/21 08:48 PM

Beatmaster,
I am a bit disappointed in your false presumption /accusation that I wrote what I wrote because I won the Showcase award... Actually I won it more than once... I am somewhat active in Showcase because I got to know people, their music, their personas, done several interesting collaborations, members helped me with technical aspects etc. It has nothing to do with me winning a generous award. I participate, because I like it. If it will change your mind, I re-gifted all my awards to my musical friends,  paying for my upgrades, because I believe in supporting a smaller company that makes something special and very useful to me.  Loops, Beats, elements are abundant elsewhere.... I use BIAB mainly for creating arrangement, ease of chord input, "live" sounding tracks, non looped rhythm guitars, solos, bass etc. The things that are very difficult to program so they sound real. 

Speaking of loops. Do you have any loop packs? It is a mix-bag, but there are whole bunch of decent modern items there.  Problem is sorting, but that is a "whishlist" item that was discussed recently, and perhaps that wish should be taken seriously, because I think it is a difficult task to stay focused on auditioning many unsorted items and it relates to what ROG said: "or just that we don't have time to audition them all?"  Nevertheless, these packs have some fun modern material.


Do I think JJJ right about slim selection of particular genre styles and complete prototyping - yes he is... 
I do not have a crystal ball, but  Peter Gannon and  I believe, Tobin of PG  participated in lengthy conversation about modern styles / Pop not too long ago. Perhaps the new release will feature a decent group of requested genre particular content.
  
I should consider myself lucky because I like many genres smile The point I am trying to make is:  BIAB is far from perfect, but for the price point you get one hell of a ride. 
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 07:49 AM

As in my original post , same old , Same old on the forum as well.

You just cannot let a person have a point of view can you?,without turning it in to an attack or what seems like one .

The winners of the showcase awards are always going to form a majority of the same old soldiers who patrol this forum !,


Conflict of interest to post about a softwares worth when you don't pay for it , regardless of this year last year or whatever as in this software it's an annual upgrade so I'll make it clear I'm speaking about this years upgrade !.

And I'm not alone in my thoughts, I've had numerous private messages agreeing and pointing out the same and other ways to take the software forward in the future before it's too late .


So please read my post again ,I made it abundantly clear this was my views .


And Eddie spot on that puts it plain and simple, same player playing too many times the guy must end demented trying to vary them slightly in most cases .
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 08:21 AM

interesting thread.
for me actually , i think mario has shown me the way ie useing third party budget orch libs with pg's rb/biab.
(ive posted my 2022 wishes in the wish lists....and saying daily prayers my wishes come true...lol)
so i'm thinking bout updateing not as often as i might have once, and useing the extra money for orch libs. //sample libs.
because my budget is limited due to other family obligations.
BUT THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES BOUT THE MUSIC INDUSTRY I OFTEN PONDER AS FOLLOWS...
many of us song creators spend lots of money on various products like biab that help us create songs, and for many of us like myself its an outlet for ones creative juices and a hobby.
(moi..)
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE A PROPER CAREER AND EARN SERIOUS MONEY so they can raise a family etc etc ......which brings me to the following points...and questions.
** imho the music industry is "broken" in many respects. there dont seem to be defined career pathways , like there are in some industries anymore.
**how do the next generation of aspiring songwriters actually make a decent living and raise a family ?
will they be willing to invest in software like biab if they are makeing 5 buks a month off of streaming for example ?
**do the normal masses of music consumers actually visit unknown musicians web sites ?.
from what ive seen only a few people do. thus its sorta like creating a great "party"....but what if nonone comes to the party ? you could have the most brilliant beef medallions (songs) at your party, but what if nobody comes to your party (web site.) ?

i have a feeling that there are millions of songs sitting on web sites that might not be visited/accessed without marketing aggressively. ie millions of songs nobody knows about.
with tens of thousands new songs added every month.
so is it enough if one wants to make a living just to set up a music site showcaseing ones talents on the net ? will anyone visit your site ?
**where do the thousands of commercial radio stations fit in ? and why is it often very difficult for new aspiring artists to get exposure on such ?
in the "old days" a demo tape or a 45 mintly pressed would find its way to commercial radio thus provideing a jumping off platform for a brand new artist in getting recognised. but this is a different era.
be curious on peoples thoughts re the above topics.
best
OM
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 09:49 AM

You know Muso, everything you said is just a sign of the times. The music biz as we of the old guard know it was born and raised in a time when most of the distribution as we know it didn't exist yet. I mean back then you COULD record off the radio with your little cassette player, but that's not like today when the availability of music for download has largely eliminated sales. There have been hacked plugins for apps that allow music from streaming sources to be captured almost since the streaming services started. I had one for Pandora that had a save button right next to the skip button that allowed even free users to download songs. I quit using streaming like Pandora (NEVER used Spotify) for many reasons, most revolving around how little I care to listen to music anymore. (Can someone verify that even paid subscriptions to those services do or don't have ads?) Then was Napster, Limewire...

Remember when satellite radio was commercial free? That was like the first shot of heroin to get us hooked. We bought equipment, subscribed to the services (back then either XM or Sirius - now Sirius/XM), and then the commercials started creeping in.

Young musicians anymore know where the start button is on some device that didn't exist 40 years ago to play loops that someone else created and speak beat poetry over them and call it songwriting. How many people here can't play a note and post 17 songs per day, all created by the "start button" that is BIAB?

Look toward the newspaper industry as a parallel. How many people don't even realize that the newspaper they crave to have in their hands to read it with morning coffee is just a revisit of everything that happened yesterday? Those things were on the internet the minute they happened, and on TV news. Why read yesterday's news? (Because that's the way it has always been!!!) I frankly don't know how newspapers still exist. If Bob beats up Joe with an axe handle, there is no detail that a paper in THIS city will have that the newspaper in THAT city won't. That event was reported on the internet within an hour of it happening. Nothing changed since it happened, and if it does, the internet will have it first. Some day there will be one big Times-News-Post-Journal-Press-Leader-Tribune, which was the goal of William Randolph Hurst, and he was born in 1903.

Everybody on this planet needs to read Thomas Friedman's "The World Is Flat". Much of what is going on with globalization is discussed and explained in that book. Think about The British Invasion in the early 60s. Then think about how much faster that would have evolved if there had been an internet then.

Everything has to evolve. In some cases, just the perception of "new and improved" works. Why else does Tide continue to tell us it is "new and improved" every couple of years? It's frickin' laundry detergent. How much can that be improved upon? But the (stupid) public believes that somehow laundry detergent has changed significantly since 1946 when Tide first came on the market.

PG however, is not laundry detergent. It has to improve, and there is room to do that. New musicians providing samples is a great place to start.

EDITED to clean up 3 typos.
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 11:31 AM

What is happening here? I...am...agreeing...with...Eddie???
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 11:46 AM




[Rog] "I tend to work in Realband and I often find that
I'm piecing together several RTs, all from radically different genres, but ones which still seem to work for the song."

[Rog] "I remember when I got a DX7 and I knew what all the 32 voices sounded like. A few years later we had keyboards with 1000 voices
and I hardly knew five percent of them. Now it's the same with RTs.

So, is the problem really that we don't have enough RTs and genres, or just that we don't have time to audition them all?"



______________________________________


Excellent points and you're explaining what's a very common workflow for many audio enthusiasts using BIAB as cross-platform software for creating accompaniment tracks, practice tracks and original music. As you noted, BIAB in a similar fashion to the keyboard analogy, has grown dramatically in the volume of RealTracks, RealStyles, genres/sub-genres and Real instruments over a relatively short period of years. An issue besides what you've listed is that for cross-platform users, cross-platform compatibility has not kept pace with BIAB growth. This is true even for users that use RealBand.

If you start a project in BIAB, enter the chords, select a style, key and tempo and then save and open that song in RealBand to audition, load additional instruments and comp instrument tracks, that process severely restricts search options and some features that are available in BIAB that are not cross-platform compatible with any DAW including RealBand.

A search example that BIAB offers which RealBand, can't replicate is to audition a Style, Real or Midi, over the Chord Progression, tempo and key of the song project. A Style can sound radically different on the users Chord Chart than the Style Demo does. Simply opening RealBand, the only DAW having the capability to audition PG Music Styles, eliminates the opportunity to take advantage of this unique, exclusive and powerful search tool to the point of not finding a suitable instrument or style for your song project.

Another restrictive deficiency of bypassing BIAB for RealBand is the loss of the BIAB exclusive MultiStyle feature. PG Music Style developers have long made use of MultiStyles. They predate the introduction of RealTracks and RealStyles. My system has more than 8,000 Styles and nearly 1,000 of them are MultiStyles. Bypassing BIAB and using RealBand to either search Styles or to take advantage of pre-made PG Music MultiStyles, negates those nearly 1,000 Styles because RealBand doesn't respond to the MultiStyle Feature. All of the built-in programming is ignored and the feature is negated and the file is generated as if no editing had been done. To accomplish what a MultiStyle provides can take hours to get the same results in RealBand or every other DAW. MultiStyles are a very powerful programming tool and also quite versatile. Every Style in your StylePicker can be modified and converted into a custom MultiStyle by users. It's a simple process that can be done quickly either from scratch or by modifying an existing Style. MultiStyles can have up to 24 Substyles with each substyle having 'a and b' sections.

I've attached two m4a versions of a PG Music developed MultiStyle, Western swing soloist MultiStyle Demo, WSWING+.STY. One version is the Demo opened, loaded and rendered unaltered in BIAB and the second, opened, loading the style demo in RealBand and rendering it unaltered. The demo is the same in both programs but the rendered audio has radically different results that you'll hear for yourself and quickly realize the loss of productivity and ease of creating more complex, higher quality arranged tracks by opening your project in RealBand rather than BIAB. The BIAB version has multiple Soloists, different Styles, is more dynamic, interesting and lively.

Unfortunately, such radical differences will apply to every MultiStyle opened between the two programs. Cross-platform capability doesn't apply to the feature. Of course MultiStyles can be generated and exported from BIAB and the exported audio will play correctly in any DAW but my point here is to demonstrate the deficiency and restrictions of bypassing BIAB and searching and playing Styles and RealTracks from RealBand. There are many other features that are negated or unavailable to users of the cross-platform workflow with RealBand.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
What is happening here? I...am...agreeing...with...Eddie???


Isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse?
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 12:49 PM



Beatmaster,
re-read carefully what I said about Showcase award that you pointed out so gently and see if your statement still makes sense.

"Conflict of interest to post about a softwares worth when you don't
pay for it..."

This is the last post I will make in this thread. I was only trying to be helpful. I hope you find what you are looking for.

P.S. When you talk about constructive, on the topic you raised... This was pretty constructive:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=645362#Post645362
Posted by: sslechta

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: eddie1261
Isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse?

Most Definitely!
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 02:21 PM

Ok Thanks Rustyspoon the link you posted , to me was once again same old same old for too long ....Just like a rusty spoon take care !!

Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/23/21 06:30 PM

Here's one for the users who can't play but post songs they have "written".

(I know... I know... Be nice.)

Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 04:01 AM

I do enjoy that kind of 'dark humor' grin
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 06:27 AM

for fun my dear wife gave me one birthday custom T shirts she had made that say "BE HAPPY PLAY GUITAR"
lol.
imho theres nothing quite like cranking a guitar amp to 11.
it makes me happy.
and whats with this ? ive been trying various new "teles"
in past few years. all seem to go out of tune easily...sigh. mind you i can be rather rough on a gtr.

back to biab i wish pg included a full blown orch lib at a decent price, thus precludeing extra time spent on midi traks and then useing third party plug ins.
gimme crazy unique horn and brass sounds for example...
bassoons oboes etc etc.

peace out
OM
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 07:29 AM

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
back to biab i wish pg included a full blown orch lib at a decent price.


That has always been a missed marketing opportunity in my opinion. Instrument section VSTs sold alongside their product. Horns and strings seems like a good thing to have available. Lounge Lizard does it for Rhodes pianos. PG can do it for strings. While I have used some of their violin Real Tracks, stand-alone orchestral horn and string sections would be great.
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 08:17 AM

"back to biab i wish pg included a full blown orch lib at a decent price, thus precludeing extra time spent on midi traks and then useing third party plug ins.
gimme crazy unique horn and brass sounds for example...
bassoons oboes etc etc."


Why reinvent the wheel? These libraries are FREE:

https://thehomerecordings.com/the-11-best-free-orchestral-vst-libraries/


Back to the topic, I agree with a lot of what's been stated.

I've been requesting a clean, tasteful 2nd Guitar RT for a long time. Brett Mason is a great player, but he's a Blues Pig, and every track is overplayed, over-amped and absolutely swimming in reverb.

There. I feel better now. grin




Regards,

Bob
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB
I've been requesting a clean, tasteful 2nd Guitar RT for a long time. Brett Mason is a great player, but he's a Blues Pig, and every track is overplayed, over-amped and absolutely swimming in reverb.


AND a perfect study in "how many notes can I fit into this 8 bars". While I admire his skills, he plays with very little taste IMHO. I will take a Joe Walsh type over a Brent Mason type every day. Joe's solos say something. Brent Mason's solos say only "look at me".
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 12:41 PM

Joe Walsh !!! now your talking !! thats the style needed !
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 05:12 PM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB

Why reinvent the wheel? These libraries are FREE:

https://thehomerecordings.com/the-11-best-free-orchestral-vst-libraries/


The point is that we shouldn't have to be piling up stuff to get these sounds. I don't know that place. I download that software and it has a keylogger in it to record my passwords, and then what? Also we are talking about Real Tracks from which parts can be built. VSTs are just sounds and then I have to play parts. I have a program that plays parts. So I don't have to.

People here would like to see some new artists and not 100 snips played by the same guy that are only slight variations on a theme.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 05:26 PM

Two quick points... which appear to be getting lost in the discussion.

1) Eddie, as you know any of the BIAB midi tracks or midi chord charts or individual RT midi transcriptions can be used to play any VSTi. So you can use these to play the parts. By combining this features of BIAB with the world of VSTi's opens a huge variety of high quality sounds.

2 BIAB has thousands of styles so it should not surprise anyone that they have a good selection of Orchestral Styles. Here is a listing of 83 which are all essentially Real Styles. But when they have RT transcriptions as many do, see point #1 above.

These two points have been a focus area for me over the past year or two. I only wish I had some good examples of their applications to illustrate these point. But that is another sad story.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/24/21 06:17 PM

Beatmaster,

Please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read your initial post you present two points:

Point One:
Quote:
Just cancelled my cross grade to 2021 mac version , I hope by now i can give a a view to my honest opinion without being shot down (I'm ducking anyway ). I know utility tracks etc. have been added and so on!. but sorry its the same old, same old styles patterns!
I've read and reread this multiple times and come to the same conclusion, you expected the styles to be different between the Windows and Mac programs. I don't think that is what you mean.

What I suspect you mean is you've used the Windows version in the past. You decided to cross grade to Mac this year. You don't like the new for 2021 styles and wouldn't like them regardless is you had purchased this year's Window or Mac edition.

Point Two:
Quote:
I don't think the age group on the users of Biab is an Issue , i believe its stuck in its core as in when it was produced / commercialiased to a software programme .


I understand that to mean you believe the core program has stagnated.

I'm not convinced the program has stagnated. I believe the program has been added on so much that it has become complex and difficult to enjoy or use to it's maximum potential.

Several other forum members have mentioned they want more musicians making RealTracks. May I suggest people look at UserTracks and Performance Tracks as a way to add variety to their audio productions? UserTracks and Performance Tracks allow anyone to create custom audio tracks that will work in Band-in-a-Box or RealBand. UserTracks work best for rhythm or background tracks while Performance Tracks are the perfect tool to use for riffs, melodies or solos. If a user knows what they want, but is unable to play it themselves, they can take the money they would spend on an annual upgrade or RealTracks set and hire a musician to record the part. Once they've created the RealTrack or Performance Track they can offer the part for sale and recoup some or all of their investment.
Posted by: Janice & Bud

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 04:56 AM

This is perhaps off topic but then maybe …

I find the DI option extremely helpful on many rhythm and solo guitar RTs. Once rendered DI I can then apply one of Logic’s many amps; mics and cabinets for a much different sound than the original RT. And when using DI it is easier comping different RTs as you get the same tone, etc. on your track. FWIW.

Bud
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 05:20 AM

There are two schools of thought in this thread, 1) BIAB is getting a bit long in the tooth and needs an infusion of new blood, and 2) the possibility of BIAB is limited only to ones imagination and creative talent.

I fall somewhere in the middle. grin

By the way, here is an example demonstrating #2 by our own FJ.
https://soundcloud.com/fj-2/cowgirl-cinderella
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 06:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
This is perhaps off topic but then maybe …

I find the DI option extremely helpful on many rhythm and solo guitar RTs. Once rendered DI I can then apply one of Logic’s many amps; mics and cabinets for a much different sound than the original RT. And when using DI it is easier comping different RTs as you get the same tone, etc. on your track. FWIW.

Bud



While that is true, it still doesn't address the problem of overplaying. Everything is played way over the top, as a "solo". No finesse.


Regards,

Bob
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 06:41 AM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
There are two schools of thought in this thread, 1) BIAB is getting a bit long in the tooth and needs an infusion of new blood, and 2) the possibility of BIAB is limited only to ones imagination and creative talent.

.............


I believe both schools of thought are correct.

For #1 - I think BiaB is falling behind other music generating software. Having limited time signatures, not having the ability to put chords on 8th or 16ths notes, not having more contemporary RTs or GUI are just a few examples.

For #2 - There are a number of forum members who are taking BiaB to the outer limits of creativity. Some are doing amazing work with RTs and/or MIDI.

My experience with RTs is very limited so all I can say is that there are a number of companies issuing loops that can be cut and pasted into songs. Thus there must be a big market for that and that could/does take revenue from PGM.

I know for a fact that BiaB is far behind others on the MIDI side. SuperMIDItracks (non-quantized tracks) are the norm outside of the PGM world as are the examples in #1.

YMMV
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 09:15 AM

Mario, let's see if I can be succinct in my sleep deprived, light-headed state.

MY personal issue, and I may be a minority of 1, is not at all about the functionality (the program). It is about the content (the samples tracks). That is what has gotten stale. The same old-ness of the Real Tracks seem to have not had any new names of faces since my first copy (2009). Brent Mason is played out. So is Paul Franklin on pedal steel and John Jarvis on piano. Their samples sound like they sat on a stool, saw the red light go on, and said "How many notes can I fit in here to impress everybody with my glitz and glitter?" If you go through those styles carefully (you will likely never see all the cross-pollination unless it becomes a full time job) you see the same names surface on EVERY genre. I know full well that if I have a pattern in my mind that no generation software is going to randomly create it. All I am asking for (and some others seem to agree) is new names with different musical thought patterns and different skill sets. I think part of the obliviousness (and I didn't even know if that was really a word) comes from how many people have never left BIAB for RB. (I have never left RB for BIAB.) There seems to be a difference between what the 2 can create for soloing. (Someone who has used both please correct me on that if it is not correct.) I don't know if both pull from the same sample pool. In fact I don't even know what they mean by "sample tank". As I said earlier, studio and touring musicians were largely unemployed for 18 months. Did any of the power brokers at PG even consider approaching them about contributing?

I wish I could find that Twitter exchange with Eric Marienthal where I thanked him for doing a solo for me and he replied "Who the &$@*% are you?" Then I explained. LOL!
Posted by: Brian Cadoret

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Two quick points... which appear to be getting lost in the discussion.

1) Eddie, as you know any of the BIAB midi tracks or midi chord charts or individual RT midi transcriptions can be used to play any VSTi. So you can use these to play the parts. By combining this features of BIAB with the world of VSTi's opens a huge variety of high quality sounds.

2 BIAB has thousands of styles so it should not surprise anyone that they have a good selection of Orchestral Styles. Here is a listing of 83 which are all essentially Real Styles. But when they have RT transcriptions as many do, see point #1 above.

These two points have been a focus area for me over the past year or two. I only wish I had some good examples of their applications to illustrate these point. But that is another sad story.


Although quite a few of the 83 Orchestral styles are good most of them still use the same Realtracks and Midi tracks.
Up until I upgraded to BIAB 2020 there have been no more Orchestral styles added since 2017
Posted by: Janice & Bud

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
This is perhaps off topic but then maybe …

I find the DI option extremely helpful on many rhythm and solo guitar RTs. Once rendered DI I can then apply one of Logic’s many amps; mics and cabinets for a much different sound than the original RT. And when using DI it is easier comping different RTs as you get the same tone, etc. on your track. FWIW.

Bud



While that is true, it still doesn't address the problem of overplaying. Everything is played way over the top, as a "solo". No finesse.


Regards,

Bob


Another old guy FWIW smile

Bob,

When I was using a lot of RT guitar solos I used to create a separate SGU with only repeats of the solo chords and then regen and render the solo RT (set on simple and DI). When brought into the DAW I would have as many as a dozen options for the the solo. Frequently but not always I managed to find a mellow one either standalone or by comping. But as we all know some insist on playing virtually the same thing even with repeated regens. Heck, sometimes I'd alter the chords in the solo just to get something more like I was looking for. Regardless no disagreements -- just musing over how I tried to work through it.

Bud
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 12:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
This is perhaps off topic but then maybe …

I find the DI option extremely helpful on many rhythm and solo guitar RTs. Once rendered DI I can then apply one of Logic’s many amps; mics and cabinets for a much different sound than the original RT. And when using DI it is easier comping different RTs as you get the same tone, etc. on your track. FWIW.

Bud



While that is true, it still doesn't address the problem of overplaying. Everything is played way over the top, as a "solo". No finesse.


Regards,

Bob


Another old guy FWIW smile

Bob,

When I was using a lot of RT guitar solos I used to create a separate SGU with only repeats of the solo chords and then regen and render the solo RT (set on simple and DI). When brought into the DAW I would have as many as a dozen options for the the solo. Frequently but not always I managed to find a mellow one either standalone or by comping. But as we all know some insist on playing virtually the same thing even with repeated regens. Heck, sometimes I'd alter the chords in the solo just to get something more like I was looking for. Regardless no disagreements -- just musing over how I tried to work through it.

Bud



Simple and DI don't cut it for what I'm talking about man. It's still just a simple, DI'd OVERPLAYED lick. I'm talking about Red Shea, Terry Clements, Steve Goodman accompaniment licks. Finesse...sweetness.


Regards,

Bob
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 12:17 PM

[Eddie1261] "There seems to be a difference between what the 2 (RB and BIAB) can create for soloing.(Someone who has used both please correct me on that if it is not correct.)"

You're absolutely correct. The BIAB Plug-in can also be included. Neither RB or the Plug-in are fully functional BIAB programs. Both, at best when it comes to being BIAB, are BIAB lite.

The issue between RB, BIAB Plug-in and BIAB is not with content, they all use the same content, it's functionality. Most of the functionality lost between the two lite programs and the fully functional BIAB however involves how that content can be programed and manipulated. So in your case where you don't use BIAB at all, you fail to get any of the benefits, advantages, diversity and sometimes exclusive uniqueness of BIAB that no other software program including RB and the Plug-in can access.

My point is solely to answer your comment above. No disagreement to the fact I fully support both the requests for more content, new content and new artists. That said, I think some of the staleness you and others find in current BIAB/RB RT content is due to the lack of accessing many features that's exclusive only to BIAB.
Posted by: Wyndham

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 02:19 PM

I have owned BB for many years and have learned quite a lot. As I wish I could play an instrument but that is not one of the things i have been able to accomplish. but....
BB has allowed me to put into musical expression what goes on in my head,,, to a point.

The dilemma as I see it is my lack of musical ability, is RT"s stop short of us being able to be the brains and talent behind the musician, hence the compositions fall a bit short of (in my case) my expectations but is far better than than without it.
Now those who play, I can see the frustration of the rt styles being stale. they are for me also, but stale is better than none and for the price, well worth it.
I recently watched a youtube vid by Guy Michelmore, a British composer using Cubase Pro and Native instruments and other hardware with his keyboard. There was the gap between me a wantabee and where my head hears ideas.
BB can be more but at what price?
Just an observation not a solution
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 03:04 PM

Every music software program has at least one advantage as compared to other music software. For example Reaper is known as being easy to customize and low cost, ProTools for its integration with Avid hardware, MultiTrack Studio for it's integrated MIDI sound module.

The Band-in-a-Box advantage I've noticed is it allows use of third party content like audio loops and MIDI files in addition to it's native content.

I don't know what the answer is but there does seem to be a higher than normal disillusionment with the content and to a lessor degree the program.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 03:29 PM

As you read this thread it is important to remember context. We have people from everywhere and who embrace different genres at different levels. I love The Cure, Daft Punk, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Public Image Ltd... I was big into the post punk thing. Yet having studied music in college, I also love bands that were orchestral, Like ELO, and the funkers, like EW&F, AWB, OP... I may be 70 but I'm not locked in a box. You have people here who will tell you that if it ain't country it ain't music. We have a guy who leads a Brasilian Samba band. We have techno/dance/trance/rave kind of people.

My idea of a fun band would play Talking Heads, Thompson Twins, Howard Jones, Daft Punk. OMD, Gary Numan, Pet Shop Boys... Just me with a wireless guitar and a bunch of MIDI instruments running around like a maniac to make sure no notes stick... But that won't be the favorite cup of tea for a 75 year old guy from the south yelling "That ain't no Hank Williams song!" Others will tell you music died when The Beatles broke up.

Point being, how daunting of a task is it for PG to make software with real track samples that will keep everybody happy? They do a really good job of it. Yet again, I still say it's getting a little "same old" and would love to see new artists samples instead of devoting a lot of time to some bit of programming minutia that maybe 4 people care about and will use once. "The most good for the most people" seems to be appropriate.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 05:58 PM

EDDIE.
i gotta agree with all you say.
imho its time to inject some "va va voom" or "pizazz"
into the product.
i agree when you say why should we have to buy all these other 3rd party products. for example i have other family
financial commitments.
yes its a great product; but i just feel really ...
new suites of grreat RT's would "knock it outta the park" !!
best
om
Posted by: lambada

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/25/21 10:10 PM

Interesting thread. I made a decision to play modern songs in my set. Pop hits. I added a sample playlist to explain what I'm looking for. I've yet to see if I can create them in BIAB or Reaper/BIAB. I use the VoiceLive 3 Extreme, so I've got the modern vocal sounds more or less covered.

I love Realtracks, but simplicity is definitely the order of the day for some of the new Realtracks. I'd love to see the Usertracks tool developed as well. So much talent we could leverage just from this group. When I see you guys give up on tools, I tend not to go down that rabbit hole.

Sample playlist:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3biOj8B3vi8MfAfMujvCUo?si=71ad41d1a1eb4e50
Posted by: musiclover

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 01:51 AM

+ 1 for a new band of realtrack artists.
Posted by: Teunis

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 03:02 AM

Seems to me if PG released a heap more RealTracks one would still find a need for a different RealTrack. Rarely do I use a RealStyle as it comes. Almost always I’ll replace or add a track. Often I wish there was a track that had this or that and sometimes create my own track. Then maybe several projects later I find the track I wish I had.

From my perspective, when it comes to creating or generating songs for me the biggest limitation is my imagination.

Tony
Posted by: chulaivet1966

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB
While that is true, it still doesn't address the problem of overplaying. Everything is played way over the top, as a "solo". No ]finesse[/i].
Regards, Bob


Howdy 90....

I see your point but I tend to prefer the overplaying.

IE:
I don't just keep any particular default lead track as is and let it play throughout.
I tend to generate 2 or 3 versions of a particular lead track and cut them up.
That's where my arrangement work really begins. (in this context)

With this type of program I prefer they overplay.
I'll take a 1 or 2 bar riff and make it a signature revisited riff at appropriate parts of the arrangement.
Maybe the 8 bar lead line playing through verse 3 will be the one I think is best for the lead section itself.

I can cull or edit out what parts that don't fit with what my pea brain is trying to put together.
That process is how I work so I don't see it as overplaying.
I see it as having many creative options to consider and flesh out to my creative satisfaction.
Of course, that doesn't mean anyone else will think my originals are worthy. smile

Hope that makes sense....have a great day.

(Although, in reading other comments I do agree with getting new RT blood from other stellar musicians....not an easy task, I'm sure. I'm still on 2015 UltraPlusPak)

Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 04:55 AM

Quote:
Seems to me if PG released a heap more RealTracks one would still find a need for a different RealTrack

And therein lies the heart of the issue. You can only please some of the people some of the time. No matter how many RealTracks, MIDI tracks, Styles or more were produced, something would always be missing. Not a complaint, just a fact.
Posted by: musiclover

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 09:37 AM

Was just wondering, who on here is going to break the bad news to Brent Mason that he has lost favour on here, (plays way too fast) and we want him out of the band, Oh I know he is going to say we we are an ungrateful lot, was available 24/7 never got drunk etc, and maybe even say we give him some sh***y songs to play on.

Maybe this is a job for Eddie.

smile
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/26/21 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: musiclover
Was just wondering, who on here is going to break the bad news to Brent Mason that he has lost favour on here, (plays way too fast) and we want him out of the band, Oh I know he is going to say we we are an ungrateful lot, was available 24/7 never got drunk etc, and maybe even say we give him some sh***y songs to play on.

Maybe this is a job for Eddie.

smile


Get me his number. I'll handle it. He's a fellow Buckeye. He can take it!
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 03:49 AM

So loops and Samples the way to go then ,Any recommendations for good sites where I can buy some to start giving it a go ?.

Its been posted quite rightly, about users of Biab already doing great songs using loops to add the spice.

Well that was my original point a guess , with the upgrade/cross grade cost, I will now spend it on the loops etc.

Any suggestions of good quality ones ?
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 04:32 AM

Originally Posted By: beatmaster
Any suggestions of good quality ones ?


Pretty much just that Google is your best friend.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 09:10 AM

+++ Big Fish Audio +++ is my go to for song construction kits, loops and samples. They are a distributor for many developers. They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
+++ Big Fish Audio +++ They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.


You don't say? This looks very interesting to me at this time. There was always a bit of a hurdle for me when I work with loops. Perhaps this is what I was missing. Thanks Jim, for the referral.
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 09:50 AM

So, the resolution to the points made in this thread is that after paying $569.00 for the program, one would need to purchase some loop libraries. grin This is if you want to have a "modern" sound. cool


No new players, no new styles. It's a disappointment.


Regards,

Bob

Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 11:27 AM

Definitely be looking at Big Fish Audio !!. Thanks Jim !

OH ! do you need full version Kontakt ?.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: beatmaster
Definitely be looking at Big Fish Audio !!. Thanks Jim !

OH ! do you need full version Kontakt ?.


Not for audio loops. But read the descriptions carefully as they do have Kontakt only presets. Some may say in wav, aiff, and presets for Kontakt. You can use those wav files without having Kontakt. Searching for loops is your best bet.
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 12:38 PM

will do Mario
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 12:45 PM

will do Mario
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 05:55 PM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
+++ Big Fish Audio +++ They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.


You don't say? This looks very interesting to me at this time. There was always a bit of a hurdle for me when I work with loops. Perhaps this is what I was missing. Thanks Jim, for the referral.

Dan, if you get this figured out lemme know how you do it! I bought one of their loop packs about 6 years ago and could never really figure out how to use it. smile I installed it in Kontakt and I can play around with the loops but never really ever figured out how to use these in a song. There doesn't seem to be any real documentation on how to use them so I'd love some tips!
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/27/21 06:48 PM

Will do.

I actually am not looking to purchase more loop packages. I am sure if I look around my hard drives I will find loop collections which I already have. So I am hoping this will work with what I have. What caught my attention here was a statement that "...just insert loops and they fit themselves into your arrangement within the DAW. So I am hoping this is that missing tool I need to make loops work for me.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 11:33 AM

Momentum is a sampler that can be used instead of Kontakt. Plus, it is free.

Samples and loops have many different features. The biggest is some loops have embedded pitch, tempo and key signature meta data and some don't. Those that do typically identify as "Acidized Waves". You'll also find loops with features specific to a certain program like FL Studio, Halion, Rex and Reaktor.

Loops and samples that take advantage of all the features Momentum offers will be identified as KLI or Momentum compatible.

Big Fish has multiple free loop sampler packages available for download. You will find them +++ HERE +++. Free loops is a great way to practice and learn how to use.

Just like Kontakt has a free library, Momentum has 3.8 GB of available content to practice and learn on.

+++ THIS +++ webpage has Windows and Mac download links as well as tutorial videos to help get you started.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB
So, the resolution to the points made in this thread is that after paying $569.00 for the program, one would need to purchase some loop libraries. grin This is if you want to have a "modern" sound. cool


No new players, no new styles. It's a disappointment.


Regards,

Bob



Not really. PG Music provides 2,000 loops with Band-in-a-Box so we know loops work inside Band-in-a-Box. Where do you go if you want more loops or a specific loop (cowbell anyone?). I suggested a source for loops.

I haven't seen any program advertised as the only music source you'll ever need. Of course there will be new styles. There are new styles every year. There are new RealTracks every year. What we don't know is who will be the musicians playing on the RealTracks.

Maybe PG Music should avoid controversy and revert back to the alias or pseudonym of "PG Artist" that performed many of the guitar and mandolin RealTracks.

I agree new artists creating new sounds would be nice. But I haven't heard much new music that I like so I'm like a child in a candy store; I know I want something different but I don't know what it is I want. I just know that when I hear it I'll like it and will be inspired.
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 12:38 PM

"Not really. PG Music provides 2,000 loops with Band-in-a-Box so we know loops work inside Band-in-a-Box. Where do you go if you want more loops or a specific loop (cowbell anyone?). I suggested a source for loops."


It's called "Band In A Box", not "Loops In a Box". grin


"I haven't seen any program advertised as the only music source you'll ever need."

When did I make that statement? Never, actually.


"What we don't know is who will be the musicians playing on the RealTracks."

Really? In my experience it will be the SAME OLD PLAYERS.


"Maybe PG Music should avoid controversy and revert back to the alias or pseudonym of "PG Artist" that performed many of the guitar and mandolin RealTracks."


'...avoid controversy...'? They named the artists to cash in on their notoriety in the first place. laugh


"I agree new artists creating new sounds would be nice."

Finally; something we agree on! I would edit your statement (since you have chosen to quote a statement I never made); I would say "new artists creating new sounds would be expected for my $569.00".


Regards,

Bob
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 02:18 PM

I am pretty happy with BIAB just like it is. I can think of many things I would like them to do.
I really like Brent Mason for country tracks. I think he is very over used on other styles and is certainly not my favorite blues player.

The price of a audiophile disk is pretty cheap for what it does, then again I don't have to consider refinancing my house to pay for it.

It's called BIAB not "live professional studio musicians will show up at your house and play for you.

The biggest complaint I have with BIAB is the difficulty in learning to use it.

Billy
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 02:32 PM

"It's called BIAB not "live professional studio musicians will show up at your house and play for you."

Really? This is from the PG Home Page:


1. What is Band-in-a-Box?
Band-in-a-Box is an intelligent automatic accompaniment program. You can hear and play along to many song ideas and go from "nothing" to "something" in a very short period of time with Band-in-a-Box as your "on demand" backup band. Just type in the chords for any song using standard chord symbols (like C, Fm7 or C13b9), choose the style you'd like, and Band-in-a-Box does the rest. Band-in-a-Box automatically generates a complete professional quality arrangement of piano, bass, drums, guitar and strings in a wide variety of styles.


Seems to me that's exactly what the program is promising.


Regards,

Bob


Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 03:38 PM

Well Bob, that is their sales pitch and for the most part true. What the quality of their "complete professional quality arrangement" is does not often make me satisfied.

I paid a vocalist more to sing on one tune than the audiophile disk cost. I did use BIAB to lay out the chord structure which it did a very good job of.

Many people here say they get a finished product from BIAB. I am glad they are happy with what they get.

The last serious studio project I did cost me $30,000 in cash.

Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital.

Musicians universally complain about everything for the most part.

By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. I do think they make a pretty good product and they have been a nice company for me to deal with.

Nothing I say here is likely to change anyone's mind about anything.

Billy
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Planobilly
Well Bob, that is their sales pitch and for the most part true. What the quality of their "complete professional quality arrangement" is does not often make me satisfied.

I paid a vocalist more to sing on one tune than the audiophile disk cost. I did use BIAB to lay out the chord structure which it did a very good job of.

Many people here say they get a finished product from BIAB. I am glad they are happy with what they get.

The last serious studio project I did cost me $30,000 in cash.

Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital.

Musicians universally complain about everything for the most part.

By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. I do think they make a pretty good product and they have been a nice company for me to deal with.

Nothing I say here is likely to change anyone's mind about anything.

Billy




Well, Billy,

As a customer, and a long-time proponent of BIAB, I think I've earned the right to comment. You may disagree....whatever.


"Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital."


I lived in LA for 15 years. In the music scene. You take a lot for granted.


Regards,


Bob
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Planobilly
--- By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. ---
There's stock?
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
--- By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. ---
There's stock?


Sorry Matt, I misspelled that. I don't own any socks. I live in the tropics and find no need for them.

Billy
Posted by: JoanneCooper

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Momentum is a sampler that can be used instead of Kontakt. Plus, it is free.

Samples and loops have many different features. The biggest is some loops have embedded pitch, tempo and key signature meta data and some don't. Those that do typically identify as "Acidized Waves". You'll also find loops with features specific to a certain program like FL Studio, Halion, Rex and Reaktor.

Loops and samples that take advantage of all the features Momentum offers will be identified as KLI or Momentum compatible.

Big Fish has multiple free loop sampler packages available for download. You will find them +++ HERE +++. Free loops is a great way to practice and learn how to use.

Just like Kontakt has a free library, Momentum has 3.8 GB of available content to practice and learn on.

+++ THIS +++ webpage has Windows and Mac download links as well as tutorial videos to help get you started.

Hi Jim
I’m keen to give this a go! I have only ever used percussion type loops where pitch is not important. How do these loops from big fish transpose to the right key?
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/28/21 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
Well Bob, that is their sales pitch and for the most part true. What the quality of their "complete professional quality arrangement" is does not often make me satisfied.

I paid a vocalist more to sing on one tune than the audiophile disk cost. I did use BIAB to lay out the chord structure which it did a very good job of.

Many people here say they get a finished product from BIAB. I am glad they are happy with what they get.

The last serious studio project I did cost me $30,000 in cash.

Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital.

Musicians universally complain about everything for the most part.

By the way, I don't work for PG Music or own any stock. I do think they make a pretty good product and they have been a nice company for me to deal with.

Nothing I say here is likely to change anyone's mind about anything.

Billy




Well, Billy,

As a customer, and a long-time proponent of BIAB, I think I've earned the right to comment. You may disagree....whatever.


"Get in your car and drive to LA and get a "complete professional quality arrangement" done and see what it sounds like and what it cost. It would be ever so cool if some software program could match what comes out of Sony studios or does the kind of mastering work done at Capital."


I lived in LA for 15 years. In the music scene. You take a lot for granted.


Regards,


Bob


First you have the right to say anything you like. We agree on a lot of things, Brent Mason for one. I also lived in La for many years and worked in the music business for Universal Studios and played in my band there and in Europe.
If you lived, played, and recorded in LA you know exactly what the quality of things are there and how difficult it is to get what you want even in LA with plenty of money.
No software program is going to replace that.
That is not to say BIAB has no value because it dose.

I took the time to go to Band Camp and listen to a good bit of your songs. You have some pretty nice songs. Some sound like they were created in BIAB. That is not necessary a bad thing, it is also not pro studio.

I liked 100 Miles From Austin how ever it got put together. There are people here who do excellent work. Jane Floyd comes to mind but I can assure BIAB is not the only tool he uses.

Not everything has to come our of Abbey Road Studio in London to sound good.
I have a couple of really good songs that a very well professionally recorded using top session players in LA that no one seems to have a interest in except me and a few friends.
Thake a listen,

https://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw/three-long-years

There are no guitar players on BIAB that can play like Lewis.

Cheers,

Billy
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
+++ Big Fish Audio +++ They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.


You don't say? This looks very interesting to me at this time. There was always a bit of a hurdle for me when I work with loops. Perhaps this is what I was missing. Thanks Jim, for the referral.


Downloaded and worked with this for about an hour this morning. Doesn't seem like it is for me, but I did not delete it. I will put a little more time in later to see if I can get over the learning curve of momentum. So far it don't sound musical to me.
Posted by: bloc-head

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
+++ Big Fish Audio +++ They also have a free sampler, Momentum, that can slice, dice and remix a sample like Reason while offering the sequencing and playback capability of Kontakt.


You don't say? This looks very interesting to me at this time. There was always a bit of a hurdle for me when I work with loops. Perhaps this is what I was missing. Thanks Jim, for the referral.


Downloaded and worked with this for about an hour this morning. Doesn't seem like it is for me, but I did not delete it. I will put a little more time in later to see if I can get over the learning curve of momentum. So far it don't sound musical to me.

I watched the "Momentum Trailer" and I thought it was lame at best... The background "music" sucked (IMHO). I recently purchased Komplete Kontrol, and am currently at the bottom of the learning curve.
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 11:25 AM

I checked my download links for the loops I bought from them in 2015, and while they say these loops are compatible with Momentum, the links for those versions are grayed out. Dunno if I would have to buy them again to get them but I won't do that in any case.

I just don't understand what to do with them unless it is to simply build a track from scratch in my DAW by copy/pasting the slices. And if that's the case this seems like more work than I'd like unless I just really need something I can't get another way.

I wish they provided a step-by-step walkthrough of creating a track using their loops. Maybe Dan will do that? laugh
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 12:22 PM

Demo some of the loop packs they sound excellent tho pricey, but I guess you get what you pay for !
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 12:37 PM

JohnJohnJohn,
Quote:
build a track from scratch in my DAW by copy/pasting the slices
That's exactly how song construction kits works.

Here are some notes from a song construction kit I purchased:
Quote:
301 Loops

30 bass loops (5 loops in 6 pitches)
36 brass loops (6 loops in 6 pitches)
10 drum kits with variations
36 guitar loops (6 loops in 6 pitches)
24 keys loops (4 loops in 6 pitches)
24 pad loops (4 loops in 6 pitches)
24 piano loops (4 loops in 6 pitches)
18 Rhodes loops (3 loops in 6 pitches)
24 sequence loops (4 loops in 6 pitches)
18 synth loops (3 loops in 6 pitches)
18 vocals loops (3 loops in 6 pitches)

[Tempo] BPM=90 [Harmony Table] Scale=C

Sample1=C
Sample2=d
Sample3=e
Sample4=F
Sample5=G
Sample6=a


The website page for this set includes two songs that demonstrate multiple ways these loops can be mixed together. I recorded the demo songs and placed the recordings in the construction kit folder so I can remember how the loops sound in context.

I've included some screen shots to illustrate my comments.

This construction kit was purchased from +++ Producer Planet +++. Producer Planet was Sony's original website to demonstrate and sell their Acidized loops and the site has a limited number of kits. +++ Big Fish Audio +++ also has construction kits.

Band-in-a-Box typically has one loop per track. There are ways around that limitation but one loop per track is the norm. That works well with percussion tracks. It also works well when you want a singular riff played in a section or throughout a song. Construction kits such as the one I've included screen shots from give you more instruments to use in your songs
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 01:02 PM

Getting the hang of the loops, well that helps Jim A picture paints a thousand words, How would you know the Construction kits from normal loops ?.

Im trying to get as much info for a buy a loops pack at 129.00 so the more the merrier !! (info).
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 01:08 PM

<< I wish they provided a step-by-step walkthrough of creating a track using their loops. Maybe Dan will do that? >>

Also, Forum member, Mr. Henry Clarke, has put out two tutorials, one using BIAB specifically and one using a DAW.

Country Song from Samples

and

How to use use BIAB Loops to create an infectious Disco Beat Tutorial" Henry Clarke
Posted by: Tangmo

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 03:55 PM

This thread is getting novel length and I may be conflating different "objections" into one reply, but here goes.

I started my computer-aided music making with loops. Acid software from Sound Forge...20 + years ago. It still exists, having gone through the hands of first Sony, and now Magix. I was also a regular listener and contributor to it's "showcase"--Acid Planet--as were some other members of this forum. It no longer exists. I heard some good stuff, and an awful lot of awful stuff from people who painted three loops coast to coast and called it a song.

As is the case here, the "best" loop-based material had other input. Live recordings, synths, samples, vocals, whatever.

IF you are looking for a music creation method that will bend to your will in ways that some are complaining RT's do not, you are going to be very disappointed with loop libraries. Even free ones. Even massive ones.

The "one to four bar phrases" that BIAB delivers in RT segments are in some significant ways LIKE LOOPS. BIAB manipulates it's RT phrases with input to and from the program...tempo, key, chords, groove adjustments, time and pitch stretching, etc. combined with intelligence. That's the way loops work. It's just the input method that is different.

Modern production relies heavily on loops, midi, and samples. Even live recordings are often "looped". Making a loop out of a human (non-quantized) performance is a skill. Cutting a smaller snippet may be a skill as well, but it is not anywhere near as difficult. In "loop" parlance, we referred to these "snippets" as One-Shots.

In modern production you are stuck with loop libraries unless you know how to make your own loops. You can make a loop with midi. You can make a loop with audio. You can even make a loop out of other loops. But until you know how to make one yourself, you're going to be limited to the sounds resident in the loop. And unless you just enjoy making loops which may or may not ever have any real-use application, you're going to need to do it in the creation of the project.

And then you have to be creative in using them. Modern production might have 40, 60 or 100 tracks, some of which may only play for a beat or two.

I haven't looked into the link Jim provided yet. I've no doubt they've simplified and automated the process considerably since I gave up trying to make complete pieces with them. They can be "fun" and add some significant sparkle to a piece, But unless you create your own, on the fly, and manipulate the hell out of them, you are not setting yourself free. Not by a long shot.

For me? Viva BIAB. I'd have never touched a loop if I'd known about it way back then. Besides, there are thousands of hours of live play ready to be sampled, manipulated, and even "loopified" that come in the package.

Have fun.

Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 04:26 PM

I am beginning to have a very DejaVue moment. I now remember working quite a bit with loops - likely some two decades ago. Tangmo helped me recall. His experience sounds frightenly similar to my own. I remember working with Fruity Loops. It was a lot of fun and in early days of recording it was pretty flashy. But I never really made any music with it.

As I am finding now loops and loop based music is not the workflow I have honed my recording skills and will not help me achieve my music objectives. Trying to relearn this is not what I should be doing. For me it is a step backwards. Furthermore, I am more than convinced that the content of BIAB, with all its strengths and limitations, is not what is restricting my music making. It is not even on the top 10 list.

So just to close this loop (pun intended), for me and mine, the conclusion regarding Loops is it is not for us. grin
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 05:50 PM

I'm not following this thread actively, but I recall when Fruity Loops became FL Studio. I also experimented with loops, including acidized ones, quickly got bored, and determined to go in another direction. I do not agree loops are essential for music making or the future development of BIAB, as implied by someone earlier. Loops seemed to be a fad at the time. Of course, like anything else in music, I'm sure someone can make great music with them but I find them far too limiting.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 06:44 PM

I only use loops for percussion, like a tambourine played in way better time than I can pay it. Shaker instruments, etc... I don't consider looping a 4 bar phrase 28 times and reciting beat poetry over it to be music.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 06:48 PM

Tangmo, I'm pretty sure +++ Producer Planet +++ is the old Acid Planet website and content. At least it recognized my Acid Planet sign-in.

The site is not as active as it once was. The site doesn't have the monthly song from furnished loop pack contest it use to have. Back in the day Acid Planet was a fun site with an active showcase and forum.
Posted by: musiclover

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/29/21 10:42 PM

For anyone interested the basic version of Cubase (Elements) comes with a good collection of content including loops and samples, I have got it, easy enough DAW to get on to, doesn't cost much either, £70-80.

https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/downloads/cubase_11/cubase_elements_11.html

There is a 30 day free trial.

https://new.steinberg.net/cubase/trial/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpLL2nJaK8gIVEYBQBh1FRA4NEAAYASAAEgLfsfD_BwE

I haven't really worked much with the samples though, but probably fairly useable if you take the time to learn how to use them in your workflow.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 06:25 AM

The real question here is what do you consider loops?

Thanx to Tangmo I recalled Acid Planet and my feeble attempt at using acid audio loops. I found acid type audio loops very limiting. I still do today. The only acid type audio loops I use today are percussion loops like shakers, tambourines, and occasionally drums.

BUT a lot of string instrument software uses loops. For instance a number of guitar strumming programs use loops, i.e. press a key or two and get a guitar strumming said chord.

https://www.applied-acoustics.com/strum-gs-2/library/

https://realitone.com/products/realibanjo

https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/kinetic-string-motion-engine/

and NI Session Guitars just to name a few. Plus you can save either the audio and/or the MIDI output on many of these.

How about MIDI drum loops? There are a ton of them out there. Plus there are MIDI loops for a lot of instruments available from a number of companies.

So when we are talking loops we must specify exactly what kind of loops we are talking about. In fact I call RTs intelligent loops, both the audio and the MIDI side of them.

YMMV
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 06:53 AM

I guess that we're lucky that this post stayed on track. Sometimes they drift a little bit wink
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 07:00 AM

This is the original post.


"Just cancelled my cross grade to 2021 mac version , I hope by now i can give a a view to my honest opinion without being shot down (I'm ducking anyway ).

I know utility tracks etc . have been added and so on !. but sorry its the same old , same old styles patterns !

We have had year on and year on , its not getting the even modern basics for song writers !, its a brilliant programme .as in what we can do ...enter chords and the musicians play them Wow ! . But that was back then and this is now .

Believe me this is no way a negative post, this is a constructive one !!.

Listen really listen to the new real tracks and styles , Brilliant for Americana, country etc.

I posted a song using my midi keyboard and my Roland Bk 7 m module !! a few comments i got where ...ah ! they copy styles of songs?artist etc for live gigging ?. Even from a PG Music staff !!. so does PG music for heavens sake if your an america/ country writer Yea all good !!.

A don't think the age group on the users of Biab is an Issue , i believe its stuck in its core as in when it was produced / commercialiased to a software programme .

I hear great work on the user showcase forum , Brilliant stuff , but I'm sorry i listen and every time i go Wow !! be brilliant if the chorus section had more of an uplifting effect than what it has at the moment !.



Just my tuppence worth as they say here in my Homeland , 2021 was not good at all to me !!.

Again please respect my opinion !! as i have felt this for a long time ! . I see posts of many songs and most time i listen and hear the same old guitar bass and drum styles etc > .aAnd wonderful performances as in the vocals the lyrics and i honestly i know the song is much better if only !!."
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 02:38 PM

Just loaded my version of Mixcraft yesterday, it comes with a load of loops and i think what Jim meant construction loops as well !.

I have been using it to learn the loops before any strong purchase , Getting the feel of them is no bother in Mixcraft (loops are theirs so ..!) .

I feel they do have a part as has Biab, with them along side as a good strong writing tool and i also feel they are the missing link .

This has put the spark in me again !.

And I hope a food for thought in PG Music ?.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 05:59 PM

There is a lot to like about Mixcraft 9, especially $49 for Recording Studio and $99 for Pro. Pro is an especially good value when you consider it includes Melodyne Essentials which costs $99 on its own. Both include a pile of content.

I hope you continue to enjoy it.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 06:39 PM

Look at the overwhelming massive response, excitement and enthusiasm here:
ReaTracks Artist Chris Nole UserTracks unbelievable the amount of responses isn't it !
If users want something different that is how you get it, if you get together and just hire a session player you can get what you want or get the session player to sell the tracks.
UserTracks are working a lot better now than they did originally, sure there are things that need adding to make them perfect but they are usable.

Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this.
Rather than sit back, wait n hope like chickens waiting to be fed, engage in it. Look at the Reaper forum there are so many different threads with users contributing and creating addons for other users to use with Reaper. The users drive Reaper, Reaper don't drive the users.
I have recommend PG to add user shortcuts/buttons that can be set to any Biab function no matter how deep it is within menu trees. This will allow for macros and scripting.
There is no reason it can't be more user driven, in the above post link, engage, contribute and encourage.
Look here:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=597652#Post597652
Floyd posted some free session drum tracks and I made them into UserDrumTracks, they can also be made into actual RealDrums.
There are plenty of Session Drummers out there you can ask to make up the style you need, and they can sell them or you get together and all pitch in to hire them. I can't be the only one here that has to do it.
Don't sit back for another 10 years hoping and praying.

Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Pipeline
From here: Whatever happened to Hammond B3 Soloist?

I got onto ReaTracks Artist Chris Nole and suggested creating some UserTracks that could be purchased from his website.
There could maybe be a short free UserTrack for each instrument as a demo, then ones with a lot more material for purchase.
He would like to offer up tracks, styles, keyboard instruments that people are needing/wanting.
You can find examples here https://chrisnole.com/online-piano-tracks
So any suggestions would be much appreciated.
If you could suggest Biab Styles/Sw Ev/Tempos for the keys listed below including B3.


Quote:
Specializing in piano, organ, electric piano, strings, and synth overdubs for Singer-Songwriter, Country, Blues, Pop, Rock, Gospel,
R&B-Soul, Americana, and New Age genres.
Posted by: NigelSpiers

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/30/21 08:00 PM

Hi Pipeline,

Thanks - I have had a listen to Chris Nole playing on his website and he sure is talented.

I'm really looking forward to the next release of Band In A box to hear their new Organ and Blues Harp Solo tracks.

Also their new Jump Brass Section Real tracks.

Best Regards
Nigel
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 06:32 AM

"Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this.
Rather than sit back, wait n hope like chickens waiting to be fed, engage in it. Look at the Reaper forum there are so many different threads with users contributing and creating addons for other users to use with Reaper. The users drive Reaper, Reaper don't drive the users."



Aside from being characterized as 'chickens waiting to be fed', which is in itself patently insulting, your entire premise doesn't hold water. Reaper is a DAW, BIAB is an Auto Accompaniment program. Reaper sells for $60, BIAB costs you $569.


"Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this."


For $569, and $399 for an upgrade, I don't expect to do R&D for the company. You may have the time to do that; I don't.


Regards.


Bob
Posted by: musiclover

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 07:41 AM

Good to see you back and on form Bob,

smile
Posted by: cxp

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 10:02 AM


The biggest drawback to RealTracks is not the musicians, but the fact that you are confined to the instrumentation that PG chooses to use. This is almost always traditional instrumentation. This may be fine for most forum members who tend to skew older. However, from time to time much has been made of the product not appealing to younger music makers and the look of the interface has been blamed. I believe it is not the interface or the musicians, but the featured music that does not appeal to potential younger users.

MIDI SuperTracks are the answer. To make music sound fresh and modern you need to use comtemporary instrumentation. With MST You are not bound by the instrument that the track was performed on. These tracks are only data and can be applied to the infinite number of patches available with todays modern synths and romplers.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: cxp
MIDI SuperTracks are the answer.


Not too loud, that is a bit of a secret around here. grin
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 11:53 AM

Some of the MIDI styles are OK also. But I am biased as I use MIDI 99.9% of the time.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 01:32 PM

Quote:
Aside from being characterized as 'chickens waiting to be fed', which is in itself patently insulting, your entire premise doesn't hold water. Reaper is a DAW, BIAB is an Auto Accompaniment program. Reaper sells for $60, BIAB costs you $569.
For $569, and $399 for an upgrade, I don't expect to do R&D for the company. You may have the time to do that; I don't.

Yet, still here we are year after year after year.

You don't have to pay that if you don't like the tracks offered:
Upgrade from
2020/2021
$69

Reaper can be anything you like for $60, it can do Auto Accompaniment if you so like.
I don't come here to lie and make things as hard as possible for users.
There are so many features in Biab that "you" yourself now use because I spend a hell of a lot of time here and in the beta forum giving development ideas to PG.
I tell the truth to help users, whether they choose to listen, attack or ignore that is their issue.
I got out of my way to help users and contribute.
Why do things I say go over the top of heads ??, I see this all the time, BUT years later when understanding kicks in they become common place.
I have seen users in the past knock ideas I suggested only to see the same users recommend this now new feature to other users. True story.
Baffling mystery beyond comprehension ???

"Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."


This does take a lot out of me, you maybe right, I may be be crazy to keep at it smile
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 03:19 PM

pipeline..............You don't have to pay that if you don't like the tracks offered !!!.

Exactly the point of my post !! I choose not too !!
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 03:26 PM

ALL.
ive pondered this thread quite a bit.
1. yes i feel if one is spending just under 600 buks...then one should expect a LOT..BUT..
2. i feel the under 100 buck (on a usb stick) option is one heck of a deal. cos one could still do a ton of songs with this option. because realband, a great daw is given free with biab.
---------------------------------------------------------
personally i'm waiting for 2022..and IF i find no great compelling reason to upgrade my 2020 ultrapak with
a 2022 ultrapak ; then the under 100 buk option i'll prolly go for. because i'm getting more and more into mario's great idea of augmenting with free // low money orch lib s.

haveing said that if pg included with biab/rb all norton style disks (via a deal with norton possibly..) and all biab styles n a zillion RT's and midi supertraks plus a full blown orch lib to rival the expensive orch libs that the big boyz use that cost thousands , and it cost 1k TOTAL.... for everything but the kitchen sink...lol..i would definitely be tempted.

because i simply cant afford thousands and thousands for all the top orch libs. my wife and i like to eat..lol.
best
oldmuso
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 03:35 PM

L.O.L. Oldmuso its no secret that I too have a love for Midi , your post (via a deal with norton possibly..) , well i would feel there is at least something there to make my upgrade worth while .

This is my take if Biab was too do the changes some folk request and it has too get more expensive then yea a can/will pay a bit more ""
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 04:12 PM

I have not read through all this thread but yes there's loops and Virtual Instrument as mentioned that can be made into UserTracks or use direct.
How easy is this now with Midi Chord Track Drag Export.
Just drag any RealChart it into the Piano Roll, select just the Chord Track Channel, load you Virtual Instrument in that will follow this, draw the midi pattern change notes or program change in where you want the pattern to change or drag n drop any other midi patterns in like MusicLab's RealGuitars.
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 04:24 PM

Pipeline.. I've always been in awe of your wisdom and skills you don't even know you possess.

I wish I had half of it, your posts are inspirational keep them coming as you are the jewel in the crown on this forum .

I am quite computer savvy but some of what you do/ develop should/could be implemented in too Biab as has been mentioned numerous times on this forum !!.

So Why then has PG Music not been in touch to do this !!.

Another mystery why they turn their back on progress and the future !! beats me !!.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 04:49 PM

How did we get from wanting fresh artists contributing live samples to loops created with no real instruments?

I would be happy if they just made the drum parts individual tracks by default so if I don't like the snare I can replace it with a different snare. Those complied drum tracks leave no flexibility at all. I would imagine there is some way to extract the drum parts to tracks but I am not going to back to college to learn how. Just make it an selectable option to compile the drums or use individual tracks.
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 04:52 PM

Agree ! Eddie so Pipelines magic should be what we pay for not what we should learn, if so a think we should pay him !!
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 05:33 PM

Quote:
I would be happy if they just made the drum parts individual tracks by default so if I don't like the snare I can replace it with a different snare.
You are lucky I'm here......

But until that happens you can use Live MultiTrack Drums complete/Loops and just change any drum/cymbal to what you want with a drum replacement VST, you have lots of tracks now.
If you look at the UJAM Virtual Instruments they are real session musos playing the sections, they also have a sample set of the instrument that you can use midi to add any custom riffs for drums or instruments.
I suggested to PG to have a sample set of the Real Instruments/Drums to add any custom riffs. I did make some sample sets for Oliver's guitar in the User forum.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 06:23 PM

Eddie,

Try running your stereo drum track audio through +++ THIS +++ online application called EZ Stems.

There is a standalone service too but I didn't link to it since it is still in Beta.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 06:59 PM

Pipeline, I want the drum tracks that Real Band creates. Just not the voices that it uses. To load outside loops and such isn't going to be the drums that align with the song. Live MultiTrack Drums? UJAM? What am I not understanding here?
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 07:00 PM

Jim, that link doesn't work. I select a track to upload and it doesn't even populate the track name box.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 07/31/21 08:19 PM

Quote:
Pipeline, I want the drum tracks that Real Band creates. Just not the voices that it uses. To load outside loops and such isn't going to be the drums that align with the song. Live MultiTrack Drums? UJAM? What am I not understanding here?

Can you use the RealDrumChart with the voices you like ?

You can drop Multichannel drums into RealBand but it is so much easier in Reaper to match tempo and cut, copy sections around, crossfade sections and replace the voices.
The UJAM drums you can use the prerecorded sections as well as your own midi patterns/riffs.
The UJAM Guitars will follow the BB Midi Chord Track shown above, and same as drums your own midi.
https://www.ujam.com/drummer/solid/



https://www.ujam.com/guitarist/amber/





Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 06:06 AM

Can we back up a few steps here and address my initial question?

Is there a button on Real Band that will take that compiled drum track that Real Band generated and split every part onto its own track? Let's just address that one question for right now. Check these pics out.

Here's the track screen. I click track 1 and then ctl A to select the data on the track.



From there the logical choice is MIDI and then SPLIT MIDI DRUMS.



Which gives me this result.



And then this after I okay the error message.



That is the main question I am asking. Is there a way to disassemble the Real Band generated drums so each of the components is on its own track. That will allow me to replace the kick, or the snare, or whatever. I have the VST I want to use for the replacement sounds and I know how to assign voices to tracks. The problem is that the drums are compiled and I have tried a lot of things to separate the drums onto individual tracks. This HAS to be possible.

You said that one of those things you showed will "follow" the Real Band song and play drums. I don't understand how that VST knows the drum feel I want to play.

I guess at the root is whether or not what RB generates are truly MIDI drums or not.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 07:25 AM

Sorry I would of been here sooner but I had to use RealBand.
I opened RealBand64 (6) and set it to Also Generate RealChart, BUT it won't to do that for the Drum track, I had a crash, when I restarted RealBand I thought I would load the crashed session back so I so I clicked Ok BUT that was return to factory settings dialog, so that stuffed things up !!!
I don't NAG about RealBand bugs anymore as I use Reaper, so you will need to report the BUG that's it's not Generating the RealDrumChart.
So you can drag the drums and chart in from the BBPlugin or Biab, this will give you the midi drum track for that drum style.

Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 10:11 AM

Here is a picture of what I want to do. I want an option to extract every component of the generated drum track and put it on it's own track. Like this. Then I can say "That kick sucks. Let me put in this kick or that snare." Will Real Band do that or not? If it doesn't, then it doesn't, though it should. I still don't know if what Real Band creates as drums are MIDI or audio. Appearance says it's audio. But this is what I want it to do.



and so forth.

Pipeline, I know you are trying hard to show me options but nothing will give me this result.

I like using this



or this



for drums, but short of sitting here tapping every note in and trying to do it it time, I have no way to do that.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 10:43 AM

Good questions Eddie. If I had to answer this I would say BIAB or RB drums have never had kit components on separate midi tracks. But then I never really understood what all this RealChart stuff, which was introduced as a new feature in BIAB 2019.

As a result I have always made my midi drums in either EZDrummer 2 or JamStix which does permit you to change the sounds for any drum kit components.

Lets see if we can get a clear answer. Good luck. grin
Posted by: rharv

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 11:08 AM

Eddie, the basic solution to your dilemma is to generate MIDI drums to begin with
Then you can use RBs 'Split drum tracks' feature and get each drum on their own track

Then you can send any track to whatever synth you want. Snare from Synth A, bass drum from Synth B etc
Or send them all to any single synth
Once they are Audio (Realdrums) it becomes much more complicated, so while it may be *possible, your results will likely be less than desired and a whole lot more work

If you make them MIDI drums to begin with it becomes a whole lot easier
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 11:53 AM

Eddie, Are you uploading a stereo wave file? Is it a long file? I believe the length limit is 2 minutes. The site states any audio file but I've only tried the site with wave files.

The splitting is done in the cloud. Once a file is uploaded it is placed in a que. It may take hours before you get results.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 12:26 PM

Eddie,
I have no personal experience with any of the following but knowing you don't use BIAB, I'm reasonably sure you're unaware of these tools in BIAB. Just putting this out there so if nothing comes to fruition in your quest, these BIAB tools may work for you. They also may be available in RealBand. Again, I've not used these tools so I don't know.

The first photo shows that BIAB can create Real MultiDrum kits. There's also some PG Music designed Multi Kits you could load and study to see if they will do the job for you. As you see, they can use RealDrums, loops, and UserTracks. It appears to me you can use a Kick from one style, the snare from another and a loop for your hi-hat. You can also create totally custom sounds by creating your own loops or UserTrack either live or from a DAW and VST.

In the second photo, you'll see that BIAB offers a Drum Kit that is similar to the ones you posted earlier. The third photo is the tool window to customize a midi file from any style BIAB recognizes. That includes third party styles like Norton BIAB styles as well as any custom Midi style you create. Styles can be created from scratch, any Midi song file or by modifying existing styles. That's an endless supply of material to work with. In other words, you should be able to use any drum sound, drum beat or drum kit you can get in your possession.

The last photo seems to indicate that a BIAB project can save a Midi drum kit on separate tracks. Since all of the RealDrums now have charts, this window could possibly provide you the capability to use the Drums RealCharts on separate tracks and modify the Midi data and change patches.

Just letting you know these tools are in BIAB if not also in RB.



Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 02:22 PM

Ok

Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: rharv
Eddie, the basic solution to your dilemma is to generate MIDI drums to begin with
Then you can use RBs 'Split drum tracks' feature and get each drum on their own track.


You have NO idea how angry it makes me when a guy from that state up north points out something that I am actually embarrassed to NOT have thought of myself. I mean, DUH, I want MIDI drums so I an assign outside drum sounds so maybe (again, duh) START with MIDI drums.

Thanks for pointing that obvious thing out.

(duh)
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 03:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Eddie, Are you uploading a stereo wave file?


The drum track I was trying to select was almost 4 minutes.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 03:24 PM

Aha!! So it IS possible!! Between that and rharv pointing out that I just need to start with MIDI drums that should do it!

Thank you all!
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 03:45 PM

Did you try the RealDrumChart as it will give the same drum style ?

Biab did have an option File > Import > Import Stems from Audio File but you needed to have Spleeter installed, I can't see that function anymore, maybe it was too confusing for users or they are going to make it self-contained ??

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=605070
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 04:09 PM

And again let me dig my grouchy old man heels in and again say that I am not installing Spleeter, Schweeter, Splatter, Neener, Nanner or anything else. I have PG Music BIAB/RB which costs a lot of money (to me) and I am tired of having to chain 17 other programs to it in order to make it do things it should already do. For a guy who just likes to play with toys I don't want a musical Erector Set (How's THAT for dating myself?) just to make a song. This "load that then route this and splice from the VST and then file, spin, collate and dickle" is a science project I do not care to take on. The drums in Real Band are, and have always been, really limp and have no spirit, but I am also not skilled enough, and I can't stress this enough, nor do I want to, sit and tap hi hats and drum fills in on a MIDI controller or drag little tick marks around a grid. There isn't enough quantizing in the world to pull what I would assemble into time.

I just want to be able to say "Take that weak snare out and use this one", and rharv seems to have come up with the simplest and most logical solution. Start with MIDI drums. Then I can put in John Bonham's kick and Phil Collins snare and Omar Hakim's incredible hit hat work. Somewhere I have the Steven Slate drums plugin and the amount of sound in there alone will keep me tweaking the drum sounds for weeks.

Back to topic, how about some more recent and relevant guitar and piano players in the Real Tracks?
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/01/21 04:31 PM

Did you try the RealDrumCharts ?????



Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/02/21 06:20 AM

Here's a video on how to load the full RealDrums audio/mid style into RealBand to manually choose the sections.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywau2e4lzyk9j5p/RealBand-RealDrumCharts2.mp4?dl=0
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/03/21 10:28 PM

Back to topic, how about some more recent and relevant guitar and piano players in the Real Tracks?

L.O.L. Controlled environment !!!.

Although some excellent advice from pipeline !!.
Posted by: Will Josef

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/04/21 06:24 PM

Important tread! More contemporary styles needed!
What you get when searching for Reggae, House, Techno, Future Garage, Chillstep, Trance (and many other newer genres of music) is a joke and not useful in any way...

Will
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/04/21 07:36 PM

Those styles in Biab seem to be mainly using Loops.
If it's all electronic they can be made up in UserTracks.
There's a lot of free loops that can be downloaded to create a UserTrack but I wouldn't know where to start.
I can put midi phrases into RapidComposer and it will refit them to any chord progression to create a UserTrack.
I can make some up but you will have to give some examples of what you want, if you can point me to some examples or free midi files/Loops I can give it a go.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/06/21 09:42 PM

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/sampleradar-352-free-chillout-samples-506250
https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/free-music-samples-royalty-free-loops-hits-and-multis-to-download
To Acidize the above loops set Acidizer to Disk-Based > Tempo and key,
drag all the loops in with the same key then Acidize them, close Acidizer then do the same with the next key.

Here's Chillout UserTracks made with the above free loops.
Chillout 01 Ev16 4-4 90bpm.rar
Chillout 01 Ev16 4-4 90bpm Demo.mp3
You can open the rar with 7zip and drag the folders out into bb\RealTracks\UserTracks
put the _CHILOUT.STY in your bb\Styles folder
If you want to see how to make them here's the Reaper Chillout 01 Ev16 4-4 90bpm Project Files.zip when you open these point them to the musicradar-chillout-samples folders.

Acid Tool for Reaper

Free Acidizer
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/07/21 03:31 AM

Interesting !! Never knew That Thanks Pipeline !
Posted by: Planobilly

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/07/21 06:00 AM

I reread this whole thread again last night. There are people here who have very good understand of what they would need to make BIAB truly useful to them. Those changes are not likely to happen very soon or at any time for that matter. Some are not even possible.

I see the the Word "Brent Mason" come up many times. Brent is obviously a skilled country guitar player. But even having said that I don't think we are getting his "A game". To use Brent to the extent he is used in BAIB for many different style of music is simply not logical. Everything turns into a Brent Mason country sound. He over plays many things for no good reason. I like country and the last couple of songs I have posted have been in that style. I do not want him playing on a blues tune because to tell the truth he just does not sound like a blues player. The fact that he is a Grammy award winning musician is less meaningful to me than perhaps some people. Are you really going to promote a song to the public with " featuring Brent Mason on guitar"?

I don't use BIAB to make money or even use music to make money for that matter. It is a fun distraction that has been a lot more useful during the pandemic due to the isolation from all my musical friends. I have never been serious about "home recording" and never will be.

I certainly would be inclined to buy P G Music's latest stuff every year if there were new musicians playing new stuff in whatever genre and if they were able to fix a bunch of limitations just about everyone complains about. I also have no intention of upgrading every year based on the current offerings.
I only upgrade every two or three years as it set now.

I just don't like their DAW, I don't like Pro Tools, and I rarely use Reaper but I own all three and a couple more. I have gone to Studio One from Sonar which I used for a long time and liked as well as anything.

Like Eddie I found session drummer which came in Sonar easy to deal with. Once a midi drum track is developed there are endless sounds that can be applied. Many live drummers have midi triggers on there live drum kits both in a recording environment and live.

There is a huge number of reasons why people buy and use BIAB and a extremely wide variation in in skill level in it's use.

I will continue to use BIAB for what I can get out of it. In the total scheme of things the price is not a material amount of money.

Billy
Posted by: musiclover

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/07/21 06:10 AM

I think the general consensus is we don't want to see any 2022 biab new feature video promoting any new Brent Mason Realtracks (others included) else its going to be a huge turn off to do the upgrade.

What I would like PGMusic to do is totally surprise us, give us new musician realtracks in different genre that will take us out of our comfort zone and a nice surprise as well.

Just make it a nice 2022 upgrade treat.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/07/21 06:39 AM

frankly i would like the 2022 version of biab/rb to address some of my wishlist needs.
if that doesnt happen then i will be less inclined to upgrade.
maybe i'll get the 80 buk flash drive upgrade.

i think most of us that have used daw software for any length of time could pretty much use any daw.
in my case ive used the combo of biab/rb/reaps on tons of songs. ...i simply refuse to purchase any product useing hardware dongles. i dont want a nest of them.
i just wish the capabilities we have today i had when i started doing songs seriously as a teenager doing originals.
it was a struggle cos my family and i couldnt afford studio time in pro studios.
which is why i'm thankfull today that we have lots of inexpensive tools to create songs.

for me its always been about the enjoyment of the creation process....ive never understood the desire by some people to be big frankly; as it has its negatives as ive found out from people over the years that were
seriously involved in the music biz day to day.
yeah the buks is good and the toys and cars and houses etc..
but its naieve to assume there arent downsides....like lack of privacy being just one.
so i determined just to "potter on" makeing songs that make me happy...and IF some other people find they like them...well thats a nice bonus.

i'm a happy lad right now that has a lot to be thankfull for includeing surviving major surgery (fit as a fiddle now..) and life with a wonderfull wife...
frankly i'm just glad to be around on this crazy planet.
i'll shut up now...lmao.
ps...btw i dont think...much as i admire the mans "chops" ive ever used a Brent RT on a song. but to be fair i'm very demanding both of myself and the RT's.

best
om
Posted by: beatmaster

Re: Biab 2021 - 08/07/21 06:46 AM

i just wish the capabilities we have today i had when i started doing songs seriously as a teenager doing originals.
it was a struggle cos my family and i couldnt afford studio time in pro studios.
which is why i'm thankfull today that we have lots of inexpensive tools to create songs.


My thoughts exactly, If only !!!
Posted by: Bernard Rasson

Re: Biab 2021 - 09/12/21 08:11 AM

I could be totally wrong but I am under the impression that for all kinds of Techno or Hip Hop genres and subgenres people are using mostly groove boxes and/or loops, not a Chord centric application like BIAB
european superstore Thomann lists 69 products so obviously there is a huge market for them:

https://www.thomann.de/be/search_dir.html?sw=groove+box&smcs=32a97b_7258
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: Biab 2021 - 09/12/21 09:19 AM

My main "thing" is this.

Remember the original iPhone? And how with every new model came a campaign and lines outside stores and all that insanity? (Do you HAVE to have the new phone the first day???) How often did people get newmodels and realize there was little discernable difference from the one before? They'd make claims about the new OS being faster and all of that, but how many of us knew if that was true or not? That's like going to a comedy club. Your brain is set to laugh. You are going to a place that has funny people telling funny jokes and you KNOW it is going to be funny. And then the comedian sucks, but your brain has you convinced that the comedian MUST be funny, so you laugh. That was many new iPhones.

There was a commercial once spoofing the newest bestest greatest new iPhone release. Once clip showed a tall guy with curly hair saying, with a great amount of deliberate drama in his voice. "Get this. The headphone jack is going to be on the BOTTOM!" And then made the "Brain just exploded gesture".

So when 2022 comes out, don't just move the headphone jack to the bottom. Read the wish lists and try to fulfill some of those wishes.