One More Time

Posted by: Mr_Songman

One More Time - 09/27/11 06:36 AM

Hi all,

Here's another song that I've been working on for a while. Recording that is, not writing.

I still struggle a little with the recording process. An hour to write and almost a year to record!!

I'm hoping this will be my final mix, as I think this is the best that I can get it.

Equipment: Roland VS 1680
Digitech Vocalist VR
Alesis 3630 Compressor
Rode NT1 Microphone
Art Studio V3 Pre Amp
BBE Sonic Sweet

****** Song Summary *************
Key=C , Tempo 80, Length (m:s)=4:30

Style is =FBL12SP.STY (LitePop w/12str.FpkAc.Guit(65RT))
Style MIDI Instruments are : Strings (49),
RealTracks in style: 1036:Bass, Electric, NorthernRockBallad Ev 065
RealTracks in style: ~~362:Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Ev 085
RealTracks in style: 1003:Guitar, 12-String Acoustic, Rhythm ClassicRockPicking Ev16 065
RealTracks in song: 1004:Guitar, 12-String Acoustic, Rhythm ClassicRockStrumming Ev16 065
RealDrums in Style: NashvilleEven16^6-HiHat,HHatO

Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 09/27/11 07:52 AM

Hi Martin,

Wow! This is a very engaging song. I love the groove. I think it was around about bar 4 when I noticed that my fingers were tapping on the desk and my foot was tapping away on the floor.

I completely agree with you about mixing and mastering. It's a tough, tough job! For me, that's the part of the song that takes ages. One of things that I found about mixing (I picked up from Mac on the forums here) is to mix at volumes that are on the quiet side. This has worked a treat for me. Mostly, I'll mix a song with the volumes a little quieter than normal conversation. Then, every now and again, I'll turn the mix up a bit to see how it sounds. Doing it this way has really reduced aural fatigue. I've also found it very important to leave the mix alone and to rest for a couple of days. When I return to the mix after not having heard it for a while, I can hear much more objectively for the first couple of run-throughs.

I'm just passing on the above in case it's useful for you!

I'm going back for a second listen now.

All the best,
Posted by: Sundance

Re: One More Time - 09/28/11 01:08 AM

Hey Martin,

I think your mix sounds great. A year - and I thought I was pretty dog gone slow. Mixing....the one true love hate relationship. It's like Dan says, a never ending learning process. There are so many really good mixers on here I've sure learned a lot and am still learning. So believe me you are not alone in your mixing struggles. BTW, good advice from Noel (and Mac) as always.

I like this song too Martin. Love the lift into the chorus. And I'm always taken away on those soaring harmonies. Keep up the great work!
Posted by: Skyline

Re: One More Time - 09/28/11 05:24 AM

Excellent song, Martin!
Very hooky, great mix. There's nothing I'd tweak or change.

Mixing: I gathered together all the tricks and tips I've learned over the years onto my web site here, maybe some might be of interest.

Great song!
Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 09/29/11 08:31 AM

Hi Noel,

Thank you so much for the comments. Hope you still liked it second time around.

You are so right about the "quiet" mixing technique. Something I only learned relatively recently but it has helped so much.

My main problem is always in mixing the vocal into the track and getting the right sound and feel on the vocal.

My problem is that I export the BIAB backing track to a 16 track Roland and record the vocals. Then mix the vocals from there and, when I'm happy - ish - export the whole lot back to the PC to master.

My problem is that the vocal is now part of the mix so whatever I do to the mix affects the vocal too.

I think I need to start recording the vocal directly to BIAB so that I have everything on separate tracks which, I assume, I could then open in Realband. Not that I've ever used realband, but it would allow me to use some of the excellent mastering and vocal software that is out there.

All I wanna do is write and sing lol........oh the pain...the pain!!

Thanks again for listening.

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 09/29/11 08:36 AM

Howdy Josie,

Thanks, as always, for taking the time to listen. Glad you liked it.

You're right - some of these guys n gals on here are soooooo good. The sound they achieve is superb - and I hate them all lol!!

The good thing is, as with all musicians, they are such a friendly, helpful bunch. And like you, I have learned so much from them already.

It's not my favourite part of the songwriting process, so every piece of help and advice I get is truly appreciated. Anything that'll make the process a little easier!!

Take care.

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 09/29/11 08:40 AM

Hi John,

Thanks for listening, and those kind comments.

And thanks for pointing me to your website. That was so helpful and informative. Just proves the point I was making to Josie above regarding the kindness of those on here.

Not sure what my next step is regarding my recording process - time to sit and ponder!!

Thanks once again.

All the best

Posted by: Skyline

Re: One More Time - 09/29/11 01:25 PM

Martin, from how you describe your recording process it sounds to me like you could benefit from buying a full-blown DAW like Sonar for example? You'd be able to record all your tracks separately and try all mix options, as well use mix and master tools like TRacks or Ozone.

Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 09/29/11 05:47 PM


I completely agree with John. It sounds like you need a good DAW (Digital Audio Workstation).

I use Reaper and find it brilliant. My workflow is: write the song in BIAB; assemble the tracks I want in Realband (because RB works with BIAB files); take the tracks to Reaper, mix them and record vocals. When you buy Reaper, you automatically get a huge collection of excellent plug-ins that allow you to dress-up tracks. I can honestly say that buying Reaper was the best $40 I've spent. For years I used Sonar/Cakewalk Home Studio; the Sonar people didn't give away too much for free.

Posted by: Steve Young

Re: One More Time - 10/01/11 12:59 AM


Good song, good job, good sound! I agree, with the comments about getting a full blown DAW. Once you get past the initial learning curve, you will find that it saves you a lot of work. I agree with Noel that Reaper is a really good DAW for the price. I don't use it (because I have Logic Pro) but I have toyed around with it, and it really has a lot of powerful features. Also, because it is such a low cost DAW, it is really catching on in the industry, and you can find a lot of tutorial videos for it on YouTube. Just a thought.

Anyway, good job! Keep it up!

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 06:55 AM

Okay we go!

I've downloaded Ozone 4 to try it out. I've bought Reaper as my DAW of choice.

I've watched the tutorial video telling me how to drag and drop tracks from BIAB.

it ain't working!!!!!

Can't seem to get Reaper to play any WAV files. It's playback is stuttery and distorted. I've checked the few settings that I actually understand.

Now I have no idea what to do!!
Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 07:11 AM

Hi Martin,

Have you downloaded the instruction manual for Reaper?

I use ASIO4ALL with Reaper and it travels along on my Vista 32-bit OS without a hitch. I also prefer to use theme Options | Themes | Default_3.0 because I personally find it easier to see the VU meter in the Mixer.

I suggest that you don't install Ozone yet. Wait until you have Reaper up and working and you're feeling comfortable with it. Ozone only gives you 10 days to try it out and it would be a shame to not maximize those days because of still learning a DAW.

Below are the settings I use - found under Options | Preferences | Audio | Device.

  • The Audigy 2 ZS is my external soundcard that I use for both inputs and outputs.
  • I did nothing to configure the ASIO settings under "ASIO Configuration".
If your Reaper experience is destined to be anything like mine, it will take a couple of weeks for you to start feeling comfortable with the DAW. It's incredibly powerful and there's an awful lot to get one's head around. What I did was to download the file "All Through The Night.RPP", progressively work my way through the User's Guide, and follow all the instructions in the Guide about how to modify "All Through The Night" in the many described ways.


P.S. It's probably better to take this discussion over to the "Off Topic" forum. It's likely to get lost in this thread.
Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 08:08 AM


Here's a link to some Youtube videos that are worth watching.

These were prepared by our own Shockwave199 (Dan). He's done a great job. Dan also uses Reaper. The videos follow the sequence of: 1) preparing a song in BIAB; 2) dressing it up in Realband; 3) Mixing it down in Reaper.

Just some more food for thought for you.

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 08:45 AM

Hi Noel,

I thank you so much for trying to help me on this, but I'm afraid I'm already losing the will to live.
And for someone like me, who has very little already, that's dangerous ground.

I tried the settings you suggested using the ASIO thingy and I just get no sound at all.

I had already found those videos on youtube and I'm sure they are excellent for someone who enjoys working with these things. I just don't have the patience.

I use BIAB because it's what I understand and enjoy working with. It's like working with other musicians. It deals with beats, bars, chords and instruments. And I understand and enjoy that.

This DAW business loses me completely. All I really wanted to do was find some way of simply recording my vocal and backing vocals directly to my PC as separate tracks so that I could take advantage of the software out there capable of putting the final polish to my vocals.

I've always hated and been disappointed with the quality of sound on my vocals which is made worse when I hear from other excellent posters on here what can be achieved.

Guess it might be easier for me to scrub this idea altogether and have my songs recorded at a pro studio.

I am honestly grateful for the help you and all have given me on here but right now I am moments away from taking a hammer to the lot!!!!! No joke!!

I haven't recorded a new song for months, tho I've written so many, and it's getting really frustrating!!

As someone said: "God give me patience............but hurry!!"
Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 09:07 AM


Did you install ASIO4ALL? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure that the ASIO drivers that come with soundcards always work. I know that my Creative ASIO doesn't work with Reaper but ASIO4ALL does.

To be honest, it's really persevering with a DAW. That being said, it does take time and effort and, if you are seeking instantaneous results, I can appreciate the frustration.

When I set up Reaper, I did nothing special at all. I simply installed ASIO4ALL, then installed Reaper and it all worked. Mind you, it was all very very confusing to start with

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 12:43 PM

Hi Noel,

Yes I did install ASIO4ALL.

I honestly don't expect instant results - but from a program designed as an audio workstation I do expect sound lol!!

Unfortunately, after spending the whole day searching umpteen forums, and finding countless people having the same problem with Reaper - I still have no sound.

Or if I do have sound, the playback is slow, distorted and echoey. I'm sure there's an obvious fix for this but I'm damned if I can find it - and damned if I care anymore.

I'm sure I should be able to achieve what I want in Realband - he said optimistically!!

I won't take up anymore of your time - you've been more than generous with your time.

Thank you

Posted by: Steve Young

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 02:40 PM

Hey Martin,

I don't know about where you live, but where I am, in most of the larger music stores they offer lessons (for a fee) for just about anything musical. Not only for instruments, but for recording software, etc. as well. I have never taken advantage of any of them, but they seem to have pretty knowledgeable personnel. I would think it may be worth making a small investment (in one or two lessons) to have someone help you get your software setup, and give you a short get-started class to just be able to accomplish your simple goals.

It sounds like you have reached a wall of frustration that is keeping you from getting where you want to go. (That happens to all of us. ) It just might help to have someone who is not frustrated to help you get back to a more peaceful place.

Since you've already invested in Reaper, just one more small investment may get you there.

Good luck!

Posted by: Noel96

Re: One More Time - 10/03/11 07:22 PM


What are the specifications of your computer, what operating system do you use, and what soundcard is installed?

Posted by: anieyo

Re: One More Time - 10/06/11 02:01 AM

Hi Martin, very groovy song! I'm curious, why can't you just do your recording/mixing with RealBand? It does the same things as other DAWs and works well with BIAB. For vocals, I hook up a USB mic to my PC and record directly into Realband, where I can mix it with the other realtracks. RealBand also has a good set of built-in plugins, like gain, reverb, EQ, etc.

I think sometimes we can get too caught up with the technology aspect when the whole point is to make our song sound good and professional. I think BIAB + Realband is good enough to create a professional song.

Posted by: gibson

Re: One More Time - 10/06/11 11:31 AM

I believe anieyo is right Martin, for your needs at the moment. Start with a programme (yeh I'm British) that is made for BIAB. Apart from it being an excellent starter DAW the forums are excellent as advice is always available.

I believe many of the contributors use Real Band or Power Tracks for their recordings and then eventually move on to different DAWs. I use Cubase SX1 myself as I got a freebie years back with my 1st PC and upgraded for a while, as I understood it.

Use BIAB and RealTracks/PowerTracks to write and record your songs then move on if you want to, to Reaper etc.

I had a 1680 which was great for recording live bands but mixing was very hard with the little screen and the sub-sub-sub menus. I actually swapped it for a good PC, many many years ago, best thing I ever done Apart from adding computer gear to my addiction for new musical stuff

Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: One More Time - 10/06/11 08:09 PM

Well a little unusual to find all this "DAW setup" discussion over in this forum. I do think I saw someone suggest this be moved to the Off-Topic so this could be really worked out. Shame it hasn't been the song and vocals show a lot of promise and talent - but the vocals and not set right in the mix. Which is what Song_man can hear himself. I am sure the issues with Reapear and your computer (of which you never provide details) could be worked out. Heck we have had folks literally login remotely to newbees machines (ala Teamviewer) to do the necessary configurations.

Unfortunately Mr_Songman does not seem to be inclinded to invest the time and effort to bring the power of a DAW to solve the problem - I don't mean that critically, it just ain't for everyone . I think You did suggest going to a pro-shop to record and I agree, they will do wonders with your talent.

Good luck.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: One More Time - 10/06/11 08:16 PM



What are the specifications of your computer, what operating system do you use, and what soundcard is installed?


Bingo, that is the right question!
Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 02:57 AM

Hi guys,

Just wish to apologise to one and all for not getting back to you sooner regarding all the helpful advice given in this thread.

Unfortunately I suffer from a Bipolar disorder which sometimes sends me into a deep dark state of despair that makes me shut myself away for varying periods of time.
This one hit me as I was already going through a frustrating time regarding my recording problems which may have exacerbated the nosedive. But I doubt it
They hit me with no rhyme or reason.

Anyway just wanted to let you know that I am grateful for all the help and advice given by all you great guys on here - and now that I'm raring to go again and back on top, I shall endeavour to do something with it.

I am still having problems but, as has been suggested, I shall direct my questions to the off topic forum as I'm sure you all have the knowledge that I sadly lack.

I have just ordered the M Audio Fast Track Pro, and I have been exploring and experimenting with Realband, which seems an overly complicated programme but that maybe because I'm not used to it.

The oh so perfect answer for me would be for PG to add 3 or 4 more Audio tracks to BIAB and I'd never need another DAW. I could do all I want in there!!

Although I did purchase Reaper I have still had no success getting any sound out of it - but I will try and deal with that on the proper forum - where I shall list the specs of my machine!!

Thank you all once again for taking the time to help - I am truly grateful. If anyone can get me up and recording, it's you guys.

Thanks again!!

Posted by: redguitars

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 07:50 AM

The recording is great. It's a perfect snapshot of you performing this song.

The song is great. I love everything about it. But I really love the lyrics. You really hit the nail on the head.

It's my kind of song. It's something I wish I could write.

Great work and I dig your voice too.
a new fan, Wayne,
Posted by: Zan Cantwell

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 11:22 AM

Great song and a heartfelt delivery...dig it to the max
Posted by: 90 dB

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 12:39 PM

Love this one Martin. Especially like the chorus.


Posted by: MarioD

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 05:05 PM

Another great song from the Songman! Again super lyrics and mix. Personally I wouldn’t change a thing.

I agree with you about mixing. That is the hardest part of the process for me. I would rather just play! Alas I don’t have a lot of money so I must do everything myself. Based on your last two upload it appears that you have a very good handle on mixing.

My advice about DAWs is to pick the one you want and stick to it until you master it. That hardest part about a DAW is setting your computer up with the right drivers, buffer sizes, etc.. However once that is done you do not have to worry about it.
Posted by: airtcon-161

Re: One More Time - 10/25/11 10:39 PM

MarioD is right. I just switched over to cubase 5 from a tascam 2488 and after getting things set up with the right drivers etc I am quite happy. Very nice song by the way. I like your voice and it certainly suits the song. Well done


Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/26/11 09:18 AM

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for those kind words - very glad you liked it.

I've just been listening to your stuff on Soundclick - and you blew me way!

As for my song being something you wished you could write - you can. And then some!!

Songs like Night After Night, I'll Get Us Through and Alone In This Room are superb!! I just love them.

Anyone on here who hasn't heard them, take a listen!!!

Great songwriting!!

A new fan.

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/26/11 09:20 AM

Thanks Zan - glad you dug it!!
Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/26/11 09:22 AM

Hi Bob,

Thanks for listening - and the kind words.

Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/26/11 09:29 AM

Hi Mario,

Wow - what can I say but - thanks a whole bunch!!

Regarding a DAW I've taken the advice of Noel - who has been soooo helpful and patient with me - and I'm exploring the mysteries of Reaper.

You're right about the drivers and such. It's taken me a week just to get sound out of the blasted thing lol!!

Also just ordered the M Audio Fast Track Pro which I'm hoping will set me on my way!! Fingers crossed!

I'm sure you'll come across many of my questions and cries for help on the other Forums on here in due course!!

All the best

Posted by: MarioD

Re: One More Time - 10/26/11 04:56 PM


I'm sure you'll come across many of my questions and cries for help on the other Forums on here in due course!!


Any way I can help I will, just ask.
Posted by: Mr_Songman

Re: One More Time - 10/31/11 03:24 AM

Thank you Mario - very kind of you!