Jim Holmes Is Going To Hell *DELETED*

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don't hold back, Mike... tell us what you REALLY think!

Recording is great and the use of BIAB is good too, but really, it's too soon for this song. (And besides, he might have been totally mentally ill. Will he burn in Hell for being sick? Don't take it personally, just saying.)

yeah...my wife cautioned me about posting the song. Again, not intended to offend, and I know wounds are still very wide open on this, so I should've just not put it out there.

Points well taken...

Mike, first, thanks for listen and comments on my latest song.

I wasn't advocating for you to remove your song. It was well done. And, besides, freedom of speech dictates that you have the right to voice your opinion. But I understand your removing it too. I sounded great.

Also remember that not everybody believes there is a heaven and hell....

And from the political side, nobody mentally ill can plan a military operation like he planned. Remmber, he had his apartment booby trapped, as in "I plan to get killed during this and won't return so I need to destroy the evidence."

But this is a music forum. I'll save that for CNN....

I don't appreciate this post. There are plenty of other places you can express your opinions and feelings on this subject. Song or no song, this is out of line.

Bob

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I don't appreciate this post. There are plenty of other places you can express your opinions and feelings on this subject. Song or no song, this is out of line.

Bob

it's a slippery slope when we start telling people they aren't allowed to say things we don't like.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

It is the nature of songs to express the opinion of the song writer. It is the nature of opinions not to have universal acceptance.

The forum is for the posting of original songs, and this is an original song.

None of us has the perfect point of view by which all other points of view are to be judged. The standard reply when people want to censor TV programming is "If you don't like it, don't watch it"

In a free society opinions may be expressed openly, even unpopular ones. When that ceases to be true, it is no longer a free society.

my 2 cents. YOMV

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I don't appreciate this post. There are plenty of other places you can express your opinions and feelings on this subject. Song or no song, this is out of line.

Bob

it's a slippery slope when we start telling people they aren't allowed to say things we don't like.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

It is the nature of songs to express the opinion of the song writer. It is the nature of opinions not to have universal acceptance.

The forum is for the posting of original songs, and this is an original song.

None of us has the perfect point of view by which all other points of view are to be judged. The standard reply when people want to censor TV programming is "If you don't like it, don't watch it"

In a free society opinions may be expressed openly, even unpopular ones. When that ceases to be true, it is no longer a free society.

my 2 cents. YOMV

I don't dispute his right to express his opinions, or his right to freedom of speech. I just don't think this is the place to do it. Besides that, it's insensitive and provocative at this point in time and at the very least, in poor taste.

Bob

Bob

Guys,

I see both sides of the argument. While I might lean towards freedom of speech, I realize that I'm not hosting this site, and if the song has offended anyone, then I will respect their wishes. As such. I have removed the song link.

Doesn't much matter to me weather someone believes in Heaven or Hell, believes in the death penalty or not, or whether they believe the perp was or was not insane....this was an expression of how some "might" feel in the wake of such a horrible event. Expression of the "feeling" is what I aspire to achieve, not political/social commentary or attempts to force others to believe as I believe. To be honest, personally, I'm not even certain I'm in favor of the death penalty...

Anyways, again my sincerest apologies to anyone who feels the material was inappropriate. I do understand why you would feel that way. I certainly never intended to create any controversy here, and hope the spirit of musical expression will continue without negative distraction ...

Interesting that the offended party has a quote from an adult film star as his signature file....

Had this gone down in another state and not been close to home, would you still be offended?

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Interesting that the offended party has a quote from an adult film star as his signature file....

Had this gone down in another state and not been close to home, would you still be offended?

Jamie Gillis was initially a mainstream actor and this quote applies to practically any human endeavor. As such it is used as literary irony. Interesting that you're only aware of his later work. A fan perhaps?

Insensitiveness is in poor taste no matter the zip code. And thanks for making my point about the provocative nature of the post.

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Interesting that the offended party has a quote from an adult film star as his signature file....

Eddie,

That comes off as a personal attack like you are baiting Bob to pick a fight. His choice of a quote in his signature file has nothing to do with this song discussion.

I like both you guys and I'd hate to see this spiral into something it shouldn't between you two. Why not just let it go.

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I don't appreciate this post. There are plenty of other places you can express your opinions and feelings on this subject. Song or no song, this is out of line.

Bob

Josie, this is the original post, containing the words "I don't appreciate this post."

I don't appreciate any post containing a quote from someone in "that" industry.

Is his "I don't appreciate" worth more than mine?

I am out of this one and will block that user so I don't see his posts.

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I don't dispute his right to express his opinions, or his right to freedom of speech. I just don't think this is the place to do it. Besides that, it's insensitive and provocative at this point in time and at the very least, in poor taste.

Bob

1) censorship always begins with a rational explanation of why certain things cannot be said (but that still doesn't justify censorship)

2) Comparing true liberty to a semblance of liberty that restricts words and behavior to certain "allowable" places is like comparing an untethered dog to one that is tied to a tree. The ability to move about in a restricted space is not my idea of liberty

And once that definition of liberty becomes law, the leash tends to get shorter and shorter until it becomes a noose.

BTW, I respect your right to protest as much as I respect Mike's right to say the things that you protest.

Whether or not we agree with what another man says, we should defend to the death his right to say it.

Healthy protest leads to dialog. Dialog leads people to rethink. Mike willingly rethought his position and removed the song as a result of your protest. We didn't need a rule or law to get consensus. In my mind, there is a big difference between open disagreement and censorship.

In open dialog, both opinions are allowed. In censorship, only the opinion of the party with the biggest gun is allowed.

I recently read a book on oppression in North Korea, based on interviews with people who had fled to the South. It's a very eye-opening book... I can't imagine anyone reading it then advocating opinion control

The name of the book is NOTHING TO ENVY
http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0385523904

It's reminiscent of Orwell's 1984, only real life and current. Just because it happens to other people doesn't make it fiction.

Here’s a different take on it. I didn’t listen to the song. It was already deleted. I wouldn’t have listened to the song if it was still up.

Trying to silence people for their views is NEVER a good idea. If my neighbor was a member of the KKK, I really don’t want to have to sneak over and peek in his basement window to find out. I’d rather he/she display it proudly on their front porch.

Then I’d know who I was dealing with. It wouldn’t mean their ideas had merit. It would simply mean everyone else would know this persons views.

Maybe if the piece of human debris who shot the people in CO had felt free to talk about his screwed up ideas, then maybe someone could have stopped him before he acted.

Forget heaven or hell. Use a little common sense and don’t try to police thought and the expression of it.

very well said, Bob!
I agree!

which prompts me to add:

You have a way of putting a complex thought into very succinct sound bytes. That is highly desirable in lyric-writing. I hope you are using this talent musically.

I am not sure how you support "free speech" and anti-censorship by trying to silence Hawgly from expressing his opinion (ha, ha).

By the way, first amendment rights don't really apply here on this privately owned message board.

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I am not sure how you support "free speech" and anti-censorship by trying to silence Hawgly from expressing his opinion (ha, ha).

but I DIDN'T forbidhis opinion. In the spirit of free dialogue, I merely offered an opposing point of view

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By the way, first amendment rights don't really apply here on this privately owned message board.

1st amendment rights aren't the point of this discussion. Did I say anything about 1st amendment rights? No, I didnm't. Your objection is a classic example of turning the discussion into a different question altogether in order to mmuddy the logic.

My point is repeatedly over and over in all of these discussions that when you start repressing what people can say and where they can say it, it doesn't change extreme attitudes, it only sends them underground looking for another way to vent. In my opinion, those who push for the silence of another point of view believe that point of view has more credibility than their own, and so they want to limit what others can hear to include only what the stifler likes to hear. It is a form of thought control and that is not a good thing.

Please read the book I mentioned then come back with your thoughts.

By the way, I understand that you are not a lone in your thinking, and that all points of view should have a means of expression. I'm glad you speak up. Dialog is good. Repression, not so much.

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but I DIDN'T forbidhis opinion....

I wasn't talking about you personally.

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1st amendment rights aren't the point of this discussion.

I guess we will have to disagree on that point.

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1st amendment rights aren't the point of this discussion.

I guess we will have to disagree on that point.

Kevin,
are you suggesting that you understand what I was trying to say better than I do? The speaker is the one who defines his own intent, not the listener.

If I was talking about 1st amendment rights, why would I mention North Korea? They have no investment in the American constitution. But they have people and they have oppression. Sentient people should be able to learn from other peoples' mistakes. Or not.

It has been said that a wise man can avoid trouble by learning from the mistakes of others
an average man learns from his own mistakes
and a fool keeps making the same mistakes over and over without learning a thing.

Discussion helps us to see what others have learned. Resistance to discussion is not the tendency of the wise. What observation would complete that analogy?

I like you a lot Kevin. It really grieves me that I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way. Please believe that is not my intent. This is a topic about which I have very passionate stance. I'm not arguing with you as much as I am arguing a certain mindset that I do not want to see spread and become mainstream. (it may already be too late) The removal of personal freedoms IN ANY SOCIETY happens gradually, with a bunch of small losses along the way.

A very large boulder can be moved by gradually removing one piece of supporting sand at a time. And liberty works the same way... not just here, but everywhere.

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...The speaker is the one who defines his own intent, not the listener...

The listener gets to decide what the intent of the received message is, not the speaker. Once the words have left his mouth or pen (or keyboard), the listener is then in control of the message's interpretation.

I am not mad or upset at anyone. I was just defending the right (actually a privilege here) of hawgly to state that he didn't think this song belonged here. On another forum (another music one, too!) a discussion was going on about Aurora and 2nd amendment rights. A canadian and Scot were blasting the US for having the right to bear arms, but not having the "right" to universal health care. I tried to explain that a right is something that is natural and can be taken away from you by government (mankind has "armed" themselves from before the caveman days), but that healthcare was a benefit from society that you have to pay for (somehow). But like all political discussions, no one's mind actually gets changed so it is starts to become a time-waster.

Time to just ignore this thread and let it die. This is a music forum.

Where is the song? No song, so no idea what's going on!

It was an attempt to be somewhat humorous in commenting on the shootings based on the foregone conclusion that the nutbar is going to be found guilty and either get the death penalty or rot in prison until the other inmates remove him.

However, it was in such bad taste even I was offended, and that is really hard to do. It somehow turned into a debate about the 1st amendment, and these two both have to get the last word. I wrote to PG twice asking them to just delete the whole thread but obviously they have not. If everybody would just agree to stop throwing gas on this fire it would just burn out, but that has not happened.

This is a music system. Unwrap yourselves from the flag and leave the Constitution, along with the misguided notion that the 1st Amendment means you can say ANYTHING you want to (which is incorrect), out of it. The discussion about the actual song was over quickly, as it was awful anyway.

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...The speaker is the one who defines his own intent, not the listener...

The listener gets to decide what the intent of the received message is, not the speaker. Once the words have left his mouth or pen (or keyboard), the listener is then in control of the message's interpretation.

I agree completely that the listener has power to interpret a message... my point is that real communication has not occurred unless the message received is the same as the message that was intended. If the listener gets a different meaning than the speaker intended, one of 3 things is true:
1) the speaker is not a good enough communicator to get his point across
2) the listener is not a good enough communicator to understand the message
3) the listener purposefully twists the message into a straw man argument.

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I am not mad or upset at anyone. I was just defending the right (actually a privilege here) of hawgly to state that he didn't think this song belonged here.

I agree with that statement 100%. If you read the whole thread before commenting you would already know that I said the same thing earlier.

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On another forum (another music one, too!) a discussion was going on about Aurora and 2nd amendment rights. A canadian and Scot were blasting the US for having the right to bear arms, but not having the "right" to universal health care. I tried to explain that a right is something that is natural and can be taken away from you by government (mankind has "armed" themselves from before the caveman days), but that healthcare was a benefit from society that you have to pay for (somehow). But like all political discussions, no one's mind actually gets changed so it is starts to become a time-waster.

I think there's value in speaking even when it seems that nobody is listening. SOMEBODY listening from the sidelines will remember what was said, and his or her life may take a completely different direction as the result of a word fitly spoken. The minds at stake in such discussions are usually those of the listeners, not of the speakers.

Peace, Kevin. I have been an admirer of your songs since long before I saw you here on the forum. I saw your songs on song ramp first. Your taste in music is very similar to mine.

Hey Guys...

I apologize once again for causing such a 'stir' and I hope there are no ongoing hard feelings. I do admit the error in my judgement in posting the song here. I am not the kind of person who looks for attention or controversy, and being new around these parts, I don't want to give anyone the wrong impressions of who I am.

The song was created somewhat out of anger - as I watched the horrific heartbreak of those family members and loved ones dealing with their own personal situations. I cannot even begin to fathom what that must be like for those people. I'm sure everyone one on this board feels similar types of emotions. It is certainly a complex situation for all of us to deal with...

Putting all that aside, though, I still want to be part of this forum. I considered dropping out altogether, in the wake of the firestorm caused by my song. But, I realize that I like it here. I have much to learn about music and songwriting, it is very much a passion, and here I have found folks who share that passion who I can learn from. Talented, friendly folks as well! Perhaps I can help others too.

Discussions about Rights of Free Speech? I think those are important discussions to have, but perhaps there should be a thread over in the Off Topic area. That might solve some of the issue.....

The controversial song was, I assure you, an aberration for me. I promise not to be a lightning rod for division amongst the members of this fine group. In the words of Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along"?

Mike,

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I considered dropping out altogether, in the wake of the firestorm caused by my song.

2 main points.

1} It wasn’t a firestorm, … just some minor debate. Nothing to be concerned about. It happens around here sometimes and it’s no big deal.

2} It wasn’t caused by your song. (Note: see edit on next post.)

There’s NO reason for you to leave the forums. The PG forums are great and if you see a discussion going on that you don’t want to be a part of, just ignore them, (although sometimes you may want to just watch for the entertainment value).

Anytime you have human beings involved …… there will be debates, misunderstandings and occasionally tempers will flare. It all works out in the long run.

In general it’s very civil and enlightening. Welcome to the forums.

Edit: As a side note, ... just based on the title of the song, ...... , what were you thinking???!!!

A song like that isn't something you should ever bother recording, ...... much less post on a music form. It would be better left on a note pad in the bottom of a box in a storage bin!!!

At best, it would only be something where you might pull out your mandolin and play it for your drunk friends on a Saturday night!

JMHO.

LOL.

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At best, it would only be something where you might pull out your mandolin and play it for your drunk friends on a Saturday night!

JMHO.

LOL.

That's what I thought I was doing (without the mando)

Yea...who knew there were so many drunks on here! (BURP!)