Unnamed is disingenuous as it's a well known song but is a cover that I shouldn't post BUT it is an experiment in BIAB strings as well as other parts.
Sung by CeeBee of Germany.
The "strings" are built from two separate iterations of a RealTrack string quartet as well as a cello and a fiddle squished together with some master bus style compression and EQ boost in different parts of each to emphasize the movement. Added to them are a couple of Mel9 tracks as well as a simple track using the Yamaha FX500's Soft Focus setting which creates a pad/bed for the strings. Oh, I also used the Mel9 clarinet to create a sound that moved between chords.
Additional BIAB tracks are one of the classical guitars (there are four - three by me) and DRUMS. the other bits are me, a Mustang (Squire), a Marshall amp and a Vantage bass.
It's not been "mastered": just straight from the stereo bus.
Unknown unnamed BIAB experiment
Unknown - louder vocals
STRING THINGs
STRINGS n THINGS
Volume, pan & bypass envleopes
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/iz7jyd27n47erab/string%20automation.png?dl=0[/img]

EQing for differences.
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8ci6j3l3ye0ncm/string%20EQs.png?dl=0[/img]

Strings sound good to me, I've never had much with them myself, especially during chord changes. I like the guitars too.

Is this you on vocal? I like it, you have a good character voice. Should be a bit louder though in places IMHO.

Nice ending!

Great song too of course

Using strings for a solid base is something that most people overlook (I think). This is a good demonstration of how they can carry the load.

All the supporting players sound good - guitars, drums and (especially) bass...

Vocal works (as Dave mentioned...it could be louder).

A big sound (once I turned my speakers up enough).

fj

Strings can easily form a solid base as this proves.

Nice work. In places it reminds me of the Moody Blues and how they used strings to great effect in some of their music.

Strings are above our paygrade -- just too much happening with them for my old brain to comprehend mixing. But, man, you made good use of them.

You singing? Cool.

Like the way you got the RT fiddle and cello to work in so well with the string quartet. Nice guitar and bass things happening also.

Lush, mellow rock that keeps one engaged all the way through...

Yeah!

J&B

Thanks folks,
the singer is a chap who goes by CeeBee, and is a BIAB user, I know from a different forum.
The trick I found with the strings was to generate two different quartets and then, using EQ, focus on a different aspect of each by boosting that difference. Afterward I blended in the cello & fiddle with, again, variation in the EQ. The Mel9 parts, orchestra & strings, allowed me to generate movement from chord to chord. I sent them all to a bus, added a little reverb, hammered it with a heavy compressor and then played with the levels across the song.

Hi Ray,

I like working with strings very much, as you may have noticed in my songs. But I didn't use them so orchestrally as you did in this song. That is still a bit too difficult I fear. the way you used them in your song is very nice. This supports the song in a great way. Together with the guitar they make a very interesting, intriguing melody. The vocals in it reminds me of Shane MacGowan from the Pogues, an Irish-English folk/punkband. They don't sound nice, but they are interesting and are therefore very good. Though the song is nearly 6 minutes, I found it a bit too short...

I agree with others on the forum the vocals must be mixed a bit more upfront. But you wrote this was an unmixed/mastered version, so I'm not complaining, just telling.

Hans

Hi Ray,

I've always admired people who manage to use strings in their arrangements, because I've tried it so often, but never managed to get them right, so I alwys deleted them after a while.

It's not only an art to get the right sound - I always found it hard to write their parts, much harder than writing a brass arrangement.

What you did sounds really good and (I guess you're the vocalist) very cool singing.

All the best,

Stefan

Your voice has a soothing feel and it makes me want to listen closer to what you are saying. I agree it needs to be louder. I can almost identify the song, maybe Pink Floyd. I do like the strings.

Nicely done, rayc. Strings sound great! I try to use them from time to time, but haven'e gotten them to behave as you have so masterfully done here.

I don't know the original so this is all new to me. I like it. A great mood piece. I like it. Great use of BIAB.

Love this track, strings really give it a warmth. Trouble with the RT strings is that I find them too choppy in a lot of chord changes. They sound a LOT more natural on this recording though. Well done

Just listening to the strings track alone, I think it loses the character of "real" strings and has more the Mellotron sound.

In context, they work, but I'm not sure they're any better than using a plain string pad.

My general feeling is that you shouldn't have to do this sort of editing to get good RT tracks out of BiaB.

Earlier this week I was working on a backing track for a friend, and decided to try out some RealTrack strings. Ironically, I picked 2458 - Strings, Rhythm CelticWaltz Ev 100, which are actually sampled strings played on a keyboard.

They were completely unusable. Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. Even manually crossfading the transitions wasn't enough.

I know that putting together good RealTracks isn't trivial. But I really can't understand how such sloppy editing got past QC.

dcuny,
I, mostly, agree.
The Mellotron sound you hear is actually the FX500 - a thick pad but is guitar generated. The Mel9 strings are quite low in the mix and the clarinet is more prominent.
The Sudden cuts etc that Real Strings generate is the reason for the FX 500 track - it helps fill those gaps.
Personally I can hear the different characters within some of the Real tracks.
The strings on offer aren't good enough to work on their own and that's a given for a few RTs at present. Context is needed for the brain to accept them. As an experiment I think it was instructive and as music I think, within the context of the song, it worked. Perhaps PG will get the hint.

>>> Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. Even manually crossfading the transitions wasn't enough.

Yes, strings are sensitive to gaps or timbre changes from transpositions. There are some things you can do to improve that though, within BIAB.

These things typically improve transitions on strings.
1. Thickening, so 4 string parts play instead of one. This is done in the realTracks picker using the medley button (after selecting the correct track with the radio buttons)
And
Disabling “allow transpositions (song settings dialog). Transposing can introduce timbre differences on some sounds like strings.

or 2. Switching to a MIDI SuperTracks 2059 Celtic Waltz Strings. That replaces the RealTracks with a MIDI equivalent. That would cure the different timbre changes you noticed.

I tried these, and they each improved transitions a lot. It just takes a few seconds to do this, and hear the results. It’s possible for us to revisit those realTracks and make that happen automatically (thickening, no transpositions). That would just be a setting, no editing of tracks needed. In the meantime, those suggestions might help.

Ray,
I listened for the strings ( though the vocalist has the right amount of smoke in his verse for this great song)- really glad you posted your efforts as I often wonder how to use them to get close to the orchestral sounds I hear in my head. I liked the way you used the cello overtop of the string section towards the end.

Thanks to Peter for the tips above... maybe they should be on a tips article somewhere- I know I`ll forget them!

Robert

Excellent tips PG.I'll try option one as I'm not fussed on MIDI. I think the transposition one will make things flow much better too.
THANKS

HUGE fan of the strings here!

A while back I actually posted a video on how to make strings, among other tracks, more natural sounding and with smoother transitions.

The entire video is relevant, but for the example demonstrating strings, skip to 10 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUBNZvNAjzk&t=83s

Thank you,
I'm downloading the vid as I type.
Two sets of tips to improve - I enjoy the learning curve.

Ray,
Strong collaboration!
This is quite different. I am sure many hours and trials & errors went into production, but it surely paid off. Making strings do what you want is like training cats, you done a grand job on them! Overall amazing large sound! Bass certainly injected some life into this. Vocals fit very well. I liked the version with louder vocals. I know this is a special tune, and my honest opinion, CeeBee's voice worked very well on this. Thank you for sharing!

Misha.

An update based on comments here & elsewhere.
I'm working through the info Mr G offered as well as DeaconBlues09's video.
I've put too much effort into this particular experiment so will aplly the new stuff, once learnt, to my next project.
Here is more vocal level, unison & harmony bvox in the chorus and some more tidying of esses, plosives etc.
UPDATED by Suggestions

Very interesting - very unique, but it came out sounding really good. It flows really well - I personally preferred the version with louder vocals just a tad, though both make for a good listen.

Thanks for sharing

Cool song and sound!! Like the strings, and the mix in general! As others have said, vocal could be louder. Good stuff!! Take care. Greg

I'm not sure what I was expecting (or which of the links I am commenting on). That's a very effective vocal. The backing is hypnotic without a hint of cheese. I've not delved too deeply into RT strings, so this is inspiring. I think there was enough glue in the acoustics to work well with them. I much enjoyed the listen.

rayc,

Lovely song!
This song is completely different from your usual sound.
Very orthodox chord progression and straightforward melodies.
Enjoyed my listen a lot.

Best regards.

Shigeki Adachi

Very cool different sound. The vocal really grew on me as the song went along.

Dear 'rayc', the 'Mixing Wizard' of the User's Forum ...

Man! This is something decidely different coming from you, sir, to my ears, at least. I was excited by it.

First off, I think the title of your composition, Unnamed experiment with BIAB Strings, is WAY too much of a throw-away title for a musical work that contains so many diverse listening pleasures. It's...it's almost disrespectful of the vision of its creation that I believe must have inspired you to produce it.

This piece has a gloriously orchestral/pop sound texture that instantly reminded me of certain similarly composed, orchestrated and arranged 'hits' of the 70's, such as Richard Harris' unique and grandly produced song, MacArthur Park.

I said that because your work blended a semi-classical feel with an almost operatic kind of rock sound, which, by the way, was augmented by 'CeeBee's' wise & weary sounding vocal perfomance. Those 'la-la-la's' he sang were straight out of the 'sunshine pop' sound of The Mamas & The Papas, Spanky & The Gang, and other British and American rock groups of that memorable era whose names and songs I can't summon at the moment. I believe Belladonna's mention of Pink Floyd was an accurate comparision to your composition.

It was like listening to something 'out of time', 'rayc'. I did more than 'enjoy' it -- I feel that I re-lived it, because of its nostalgic feel and sound . Bravissimo, maestro !!!

Absolutely sincerely & truthfully,

LOREN

P.S. Please post the lyrics, won't you??? And, concerning the strings, I have been most pleased working with IK Multimedia's Miroslav Philharmonik strings, which offer individual, sectional and full string orchestral samples with an array of easy-to-use preset and individual sound-shaping controls and envelopes. If you're interested in how I applied them, you may want to give a listen to a previous post of mine, I Remember Wes.

Bluage/Loren,
The reason it's unnamed is because it's a cover & they're not supposed to be posted - Leonard Cohen's Joan of Arc from Songs of Love & Hate.
Thanks for the kind comments and the reference to samples/synths.
Lyrics...
Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc
As she came riding through the dark
No moon to keep her Armour bright
No man to get her through this very smoky night

She said, "I'm tired of the war
I want the kind of work I had before
A wedding dress or something white
To wear upon my swollen appetite"

Well, I'm glad to hear you talk this way
I've watched you riding every day
There’s something in me yearns to win
Such a cold and lonesome heroine

“Who are you" she sternly spoke
To the one beneath the smoke
"Why I'm fire," he replied
"I love your solitude, I love your pride"

"Then fire, make your body cold
I'm gonna give you mine to hold"
Saying this she climbed inside
To be his one, to be his only bride

It was deep into his fiery heart
He took the dust of a Joan of Arc
And high above the wedding guests
He hung the ashes of her wedding dress

It was deep into his fiery heart
That he took the dust of Joan of Arc
Then she clearly understood
If he was fire, then she must be wood

I saw her wince, I heard her cry
I saw the glory in her eye
Myself I long for love and light
But must it come so cruel, and oh so bright?

Here's the original...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPf5Ki9ygVY

I thought I commented on this already. It all sounds good to me. I don't know the original (I'll have to go listen), but this is good.

This is impressive. I'd say it's a very successful experiment. The Unknown BIAB Experiment version is great - I like the vocals better in that one. Your use of the strings (even before PG's suggestions) is excellent, and something that I aspire to in my own work. The vocals by CeeBee (I'm a fan!) are excellent and perfectly suited to the song. This song hits me as one that could be playing at the end of a movie as the credits roll by - I can see the main character driving away in his car, window rolled down, the taste of freedom and the open road in front of him, but tinged with sadness at what could have been. Forgive me if I'm rambling but I blame it on the song!