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Posted By: floyd jane Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/22/22 04:01 PM
There have been a LOT of great new additions to the guitars (both electric and acoustic) with many that are aimed at "singer songwriter" style of playing.
(Thanks! for that!!!)

This is NOT the case with the BIAB pianos.
We have a HUGE amount of GREAT piano tracks.
But they are mainly intended to be part of a full production - and are often very "busy" - "full bodied" you might say.

Singer songwriters who play piano typically play "subtle" piano.
Mainly chords (on the beat) with grace notes (before or after the chord).

It would be nice to have a full suite of subtle songwriter piano tracks that could be used to create "intimate" piano/vocal recordings.

Often these songs will begin with JUST block chords. (A section?)
Then the second verse opens those chords up a little with grace notes. (C section?)
The chorus will, again, be slightly busier - but NOT "showy". (B section?)
In addition - as an alternative, there are often later verses (or a bridge) that will use chords up an octave (no bass notes) for a "softening"... (D section?)

NOT Elton John or Billy Joel piano (they are "showy" players)

I'll provide a few examples as I find them...





































Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/22/22 06:22 PM























Posted By: NigelSpiers Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/26/22 07:49 PM
Hi Floyd,

I agree - that would be a great bonus for BIAB users.

Best Regards
Nigel
Posted By: MarioD Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/27/22 12:47 AM
+1 for RTs and MIDI.
Posted By: rodipoet Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/27/22 08:46 AM
Very good idea.
Both midi and realtracks
Posted By: B.D.Thomas Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/29/22 12:08 PM
Another +1 from my side.

And, while your at it and nobody mentioned it yet (but it's in Floyd's examples), the same with slow piano arpeggios.
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/29/22 02:48 PM
Floyd, I don’t write in that genre, and I don’t recognize most of the tunes you wisely gave as examples, but I’ll add a comment and a question.

Comment: there does seem to be more emphasis on new guitar tracks than on piano tracks.

Question: just checking, in the styles you use, do the piano RealTracks have the ‘Simpler’ option in the picker, and does it do anything in these tracks? For example, if it played block chords, then you could generate two tracks, with just one using the Simpler option, and mute each track where desired.
Posted By: Jim Fogle Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/30/22 07:40 PM
+1 in support of more simple piano RealTracks.

I will ask you though Floyd, have you looked at some of the MIDI or MIDI SuperTrack styles? There are a fair number of styles that include piano. I've found one that has only held chords, some really nice patterns for right hand and left hand pianos, rehearsal piano, country ballads. Add a nice sounding VSTi and you might already have some of what you're asking for.
Posted By: dcuny Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/03/23 11:27 PM
+1, especially for the MIDI tracks.

There are some very pretty piano RealTracks that I can't use, because they've got pedaling artifacts, or sudden cuts before chord changes.

I just did a quick test, and... yep, it's still there.

On the other hand, the MIDI Tracks don't have that problem. They're the only instrument where I prefer the MIDI version over the RealTracks.
Posted By: Jim Fogle Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/04/23 03:16 PM
David,

Originally Posted By: dcuny
There are some very pretty piano RealTracks that I can't use, because they've got pedaling artifacts
and
Quote:
or sudden cuts before chord changes.


Many of us and PG Music may not be aware of these RealTrack issues. I admit I'm not aware of them.

Can you identify the RealTracks and which issue each RealTrack has?

PG Music is pretty good about fixing RealTracks once they become aware of an issue.
Posted By: DrDan Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/04/23 05:36 PM
FJ, thanks for all the examples. Allow's us to know exactly what you are looking for. And ya, these are not the typical RT piano offerings from BIAB.

For me I look first at the BAIB MST pianos for this groove/feel. But really because this provides for the piano sound by VST, which is critical when it is just voice and piano. You don't get that option with RTs.

Then there is the Singer/Sounwriter pak from ToonTracks. I think this provides the most midi options for this sound. These provide multiple options to insert intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, bridge all at specific designed tempos. But you already know that...

So my leaning is definitely midi for this feel.
Posted By: Jim Fogle Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/04/23 09:07 PM
Dan,

Are you referring to +++ Singer-Songwriter EZkeys MIDI +++? Doesn't that package require +++ EZKeys +++?

Toontrack has some excellent products but it's easy to get expensive and fall down the MIDI pak or instrument pak rabbit hole. smile
Posted By: DrDan Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/04/23 09:14 PM
Yes EZKeys and Yes thats the Midi pak, and Yes about that Rabbit hole thing. But there are several of us here in the forum who have traveled down and back several time. I suspect FJ may be one. grin

And in regards to expensive. The secret is buy only when on sale (just like BIAB). That Singer Songwriter pak was likely $10-12 USD when I got it on sale.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/04/23 10:21 PM
Yes, they require EZKeys. Just wait for a sale. I have picked up a few EZKeys for around $50-$70 USD when they were on sale.

But you only need one EZKey to run all of the MIDI. There are a number of simple piano styles included in the following EZKey's MIDI:
Big Band
Classic Soul
Contemporary R&B
Emotional Ballads
And many others. I also purchase them only when they are on sale.

They are found under Variations 01.

You can take an EZKey MIDI, drag it to your DAW, and use it with a BiaB style. I have done this a few times. You may be able to use EZKeys in BiaB but someone else will have to verify that as I don't that kind of thing in BiaB.

I am really impressed with EZKey MIDI.
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Floyd, I don’t write in that genre, and I don’t recognize most of the tunes you wisely gave as examples, but I’ll add a comment and a question.

Comment: there does seem to be more emphasis on new guitar tracks than on piano tracks.

Question: just checking, in the styles you use, do the piano RealTracks have the ‘Simpler’ option in the picker, and does it do anything in these tracks? For example, if it played block chords, then you could generate two tracks, with just one using the Simpler option, and mute each track where desired.


That's a good thought.
However...
Anytime that I have tried the "Simpler" option I cannot tell much difference from the original RT.
Having to build a track for multiple tracks (muting), would have to be labeled "a work around".
RTs dedicated to the style - "simple songwriter piano" would certainly be better - and might draw a few new customers who might be looking for that type of tracks...


Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 11:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
+1 in support of more simple piano RealTracks.

I will ask you though Floyd, have you looked at some of the MIDI or MIDI SuperTrack styles? There are a fair number of styles that include piano. I've found one that has only held chords, some really nice patterns for right hand and left hand pianos, rehearsal piano, country ballads. Add a nice sounding VSTi and you might already have some of what you're asking for.


Another good suggestion.
However...
I find it difficult (quite tedious) to try to find this style of piano in MIDI styles.
(For me) that requires loading in every MIDI style and then auditioning the piano.
I don't know of a way to narrow that search down.
I once tried to do a similar thing for acoustic guitar MIDI tracks (that are included in early styles).
It was FAR too time consuming to continue for long....
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 12:03 PM
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent

Then there is the Singer/Sounwriter pak from ToonTracks. I think this provides the most midi options for this sound. These provide multiple options to insert intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, bridge all at specific designed tempos. But you already know that...


Yes, EZKeys provides a lot of what I am asking for in RTs.
And I have about 20 EZKeys MIDI paks (including the Singer/Songwriter pak).
The problem there is that the "answer" is "Go buy EZKeys and the necessary MIDI paks..."

It would be nice if BIAB provided a whole suite of "Songwriter Piano" RTs.
So that the "answer" would be "Buy Band-In-A-Box!!!"
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 12:06 PM





Michael Rojas is credited with the piano tracks for this album
He is one of our BIAB ReatTracks Artists








Posted By: MikeK Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 01:30 PM
+1 indeed.
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 03:12 PM
1542:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm PopBelieve Ev16 065

...does a pretty good job of this



1839:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 ....isn't bad

2365:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm CelticAir Ev 085 - works for some things. The piano sound of the the RT is questionable, but there is a MIDI SuperTrack, so you can choose a different sound source (a good thing!)

MIDI SuperTracks 2999:Piano, Rhythm CountryFolk8thsMike Ev 085 - not bad
MIDI SuperTracks 2853:Piano, Rhythm CountryPopMike12-key Ev 085 - nicely if you keep the tempo lower (60-65)
MIDI SuperTracks 2831:Piano, Rhythm GospelSlowBalladMike Ev 085 (nice at 65 bpm)

MIDI SuperTracks 3674:Piano, Rhythm NewAgeArp16 Ev16 090 - This is quite nice if played at 70 bpm






Posted By: MarioD Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: floyd jane


Another good suggestion.
However...
I find it difficult (quite tedious) to try to find this style of piano in MIDI styles.
(For me) that requires loading in every MIDI style and then auditioning the piano.
I don't know of a way to narrow that search down.
I once tried to do a similar thing for acoustic guitar MIDI tracks (that are included in early styles).
It was FAR too time consuming to continue for long....


I agree. Finding individual MIDI tracks should be as easy as finding individual RTs or Super MIDI Tracks.!
Posted By: dcuny Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 05:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Many of us and PG Music may not be aware of these RealTrack issues. I admit I'm not aware of them.

Can you identify the RealTracks and which issue each RealTrack has?

As an example, have a listen to 1949: Piano, Acoustic, Soloist PopRootsyJohn Ev16. A lot of it is quite good.

But you can hear a stop in front of lot of chords. And once you hear it one BiaB piano track, you hear it on all the piano tracks.

And intermittently, you'll hear the timing of a downbeat is off, like a slight hesitation by the pianist.

Now, in context with other instruments, it sounds fine.

Maybe it's just me, because I've got such a lead foot on the piano's sustain pedal when I play. But MIDI doesn't seem to have this problem.

Posted By: DrDan Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/05/23 07:31 PM
Originally Posted By: dcuny
As an example, have a listen to 1949: Piano, Acoustic, Soloist PopRootsyJohn Ev16. A lot of it is quite good.

But you can hear a stop in front of lot of chords. And once you hear it one BiaB piano track, you hear it on all the piano tracks.

And intermittently, you'll hear the timing of a downbeat is off, like a slight hesitation by the pianist.



OK, easy to hear if you solo the piano. Just may need to be hidden in the mix. I am afraid this may be the current "state of the art".
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/06/23 12:19 PM
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: dcuny
As an example, have a listen to 1949: Piano, Acoustic, Soloist PopRootsyJohn Ev16. A lot of it is quite good.

But you can hear a stop in front of lot of chords. And once you hear it one BiaB piano track, you hear it on all the piano tracks.

And intermittently, you'll hear the timing of a downbeat is off, like a slight hesitation by the pianist.



OK, easy to hear if you solo the piano. Just may need to be hidden in the mix. I am afraid this may be the current "state of the art".



There are A LOT of Piano RealTracks that have a "funny" (odd?) sound.
They seem to be drenched in reverb and often have a "wobble/worble" to them.
Particularly the older one.
They are basically unusable as a "piano only" track (though usually okay in a full production).

SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs).
Applying a 3rd party VSTi piano allows for a clean, unprocessed piano sound.
It also makes it possible to use the piano track at a much wider range of tempos.

Adding MIDI SuperTracks for the older existing piano RTs that do not have them would be nice...
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/06/23 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: floyd jane


SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs)…
Really? I must have missed that announcement. That would be very good news.

My understanding was only that piano tracks now have accurate MIDI notation because they were recorded on a digital piano, so the correct notation was captured at the same time that the audio was recorded for a RealTrack. Thus, anyone could capture the playing to be used by a different synth.
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/07/23 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Originally Posted By: floyd jane


SO... MIDI SuperTrack of any new piano RTS is essential (I believe PGMusic is already doing this - including a MIDI SuperTrack for any new piano RTs)…
Really? I must have missed that announcement. That would be very good news.

My understanding was only that piano tracks now have accurate MIDI notation because they were recorded on a digital piano, so the correct notation was captured at the same time that the audio was recorded for a RealTrack. Thus, anyone could capture the playing to be used by a different synth.


There was no "announcement".
ALL of the new pianos and organ RTs (in 2023) have a corresponding MIDI SuperTrack.
It makes sense that once they (PGMusic) realized that MSTs were a good thing they would have any future recording (of MIDI capable instruments - like pianos/keyboards) - would have the MIDI captured while the performance for the RealTracks occurs to create the MST.
But...that is just an assumption on my part.
Posted By: DrDan Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/07/23 07:17 PM
Quote:
ALL of the new pianos and organ RTs (in 2023) have a corresponding MIDI SuperTrack.
It makes sense that once they (PGMusic) realized that MSTs were a good thing they would have any future recording (of MIDI capable instruments - like pianos/keyboards) - would have the MIDI captured while the performance for the RealTracks occurs to create the MST.
But...that is just an assumption on my part.


I can't imagine this is true? While I agree the RTs on Piano and keyboards do have the midi with full velocity and pedal controllers included with the audio, but I don't believe that a separate SMT is also included to replicate the RT/Midi instrument. I looked and the new RTs and new SMTs and I don't see the alignment. But...that is just an assumption on my part.
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/07/23 08:25 PM
Right, this could use clarification. Or a deep dive into past posts. I think I recall some PG staffer saying all the pianos in BIAB had notation now. Maybe I misinterpreted that to mean all, ever, rather than just the new ones. And I don't know if that's even right about the new ones. But I do remember something was said about this.
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/08/23 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent

I can't imagine this is true? While I agree the RTs on Piano and keyboards do have the midi with full velocity and pedal controllers included with the audio, but I don't believe that a separate SMT is also included to replicate the RT/Midi instrument. I looked and the new RTs and new SMTs and I don't see the alignment. But...that is just an assumption on my part.



Not sure where you are looking, but...

I walked through the new RealTracks
https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.222newrealtracks.htm

...picking out the Piano and Organ RTs

And then checked the list of MIDI SuperTracks (in the program)...

....and found every one of them in the list.


Other than that, I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about.
Posted By: DrDan Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/08/23 05:19 PM
Originally Posted By: floyd jane

Not sure where you are looking, but...

I walked through the new RealTracks
https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.222newrealtracks.htm

...picking out the Piano and Organ RTs

And then checked the list of MIDI SuperTracks (in the program)...

....and found every one of them in the list.


Here is the list of new 2023 Piano/Keyboard RTs. I count ~ 25.

Then in the "Select Midi Super Tracks Window", I have 218 Piano SMTs (Froms #1796 -# 4430). I see no way to fully compare the titles of the SMTs to the RTs to confirm which are identical? If I just look and the highest number SMTs, assuming these are the newest (2023), then Yes I see Kevin, and Miles and Daniel ... so I guess these could be the same performance files as the RTs, but not sure how to confirm that without listening to each one. Kinda wish the numbering system would have lined this up for identification.

But back to the point which I may have confused... Fact is, I have always (for at least a decade) found the midi provided in the RT Keys to be equivalent in quality to the midi provided in the MSTs. It is easy to drag the midi portion of the RT Keys to my DAW and use them just like MST midi with a VST. Although I never felt they might be identical. That was my only point. Sorry for confusion. So OK, lets ask this question directly to the powers to be. I posted message to developers.



Attached picture Screenshot 2023-01-08 140935.jpg
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/08/23 05:41 PM
...and here are the latest MIDI SuperTracks.

You can find each of the above RTs in these lists:

Attached picture Piano RTs.JPG
Attached picture OrganRTs.JPG
Posted By: Tobin - PG Music Inc. Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/09/23 03:41 PM
Hi floyd jane,

Excellent suggestions, and that's fantastic that you've put so many great youtube examples in there. That makes it way more likely that we'll be able to add styles that will be close to what you have in mind. I'd love for us to add a lot of new songwriter pianos this year...
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/16/23 12:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Tobin - PG Music Inc.
Hi floyd jane,

Excellent suggestions, and that's fantastic that you've put so many great youtube examples in there. That makes it way more likely that we'll be able to add styles that will be close to what you have in mind. I'd love for us to add a lot of new songwriter pianos this year...


That is encouraging, Tobin....
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/16/23 12:28 PM
Some more...

Posted By: Peters Garage Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/22/23 06:27 PM
+1

And in general - it would be nice that "Force to Simple arrangement" actually minimized embellishment and was a much less busy track - that goes for all Real Tracks.
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/24/23 09:22 AM
I'm late to the party on this one, but I definitely support all of the suggestions that have been put forward.

+1 for Simple, Songwriter Piano
Posted By: MikeK Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/28/23 12:52 PM
+1 here as well.
Posted By: ejdecker Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 05/20/23 06:32 PM
+1

I agree!

One other wonderful option that'd arise at that point, would be to have that relaxed intimacy, but then be able to "Jazz Up" the chords played so that a wider palette would be possible...
Posted By: ejdecker Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 05/20/23 06:35 PM
Great Tobin!

From your keyboard to god's ears!
Posted By: rayc Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 09/04/23 08:34 PM
Yep.
Posted By: Rustyspoon# Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 09/09/23 02:04 PM
+1 for simpler backing pianos: RTs and their MIDI counter parts.
Posted By: Derochette Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 09/18/23 03:58 PM
Hi Floyd Jane,

Thank you for this very constructive post. You say out loud what others would not dare. In your analysis everything is correct. I will add that for guitar solos, a single realtrack is not enough. On a theme, there should be two or three with the same sounds to be able to easily apply variations and bring your creative mind into play. A big thank you to you, renowned musician.
Posted By: major7th Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 10/05/23 04:47 AM
+1,000
Posted By: floyd jane Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/05/23 01:46 PM
heartbroken
Posted By: swingbabymix Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/08/23 04:56 AM
+1 for RTs and MIDI.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/08/23 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by swingbabymix
+1 for RTs and MIDI.

Another +1
Posted By: swingbabymix Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/16/23 05:27 AM
You want a piano that feels like this? Is that right?


https://www.toontrack.com/product/acoustic-songwriter-2-ezkeys-midi/

https://www.toontrack.com/product/acoustic-songwriter-ezkeys-midi/
Posted By: swingbabymix Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/16/23 01:17 PM
Acoustic Pop EZkeys MIDI
https://www.toontrack.com/product/acoustic-pop-ezkeys-midi/
Posted By: swingbabymix Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 12/16/23 10:22 PM
Through my recent tests, I think it is necessary for BIAB to have these pianos RT.

Because BIAB typing chords is much more convenient than ezkey2!
Posted By: swingbabymix Re: Simple, Songwriter Piano - 01/31/24 12:58 AM
Is no one following this post anymore?
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