So, it seems so simple but....

Lets say you want to make a minor 7th chord into a dominant seventh chord, for example, in the key of C, if you wanted to sound an Am7 as A7, but you wanted to write this in Roman numerals

So, A minor is the VI chord, I would think of this as A C E. If I wanted to denote this as a minor 7th chord, then I would write Am7 ACEG. If I then wanted to change the chord to a dominant 7th of the same root I would write A7 A C# E G, .
Now, in Roman numerals. Firstly the triad chord would simply be VI. Secondly if I wanted to describe a minor seventh chord I would write VI7 ( I guess), Now, if I want to write a dominant 7th chord in the sixth position, I would write what? A VI7? But that's both a dominant and a minor seventh chord sharing the same symbol?

Do I have something wrong?

Z

A minor chord in C would be vi (lower case),
so VI would be A major in the key of C

VI7 would be a A7 chord while
vi7 would be the Am7 chord.

cheers, now its only impossible with my handwriting!

Hi Kemrich another question please.... then of the locrian chord? In its natural form it would be a vii? Rather than a VII? It sounds minory..

The native chord built on the 7th note of a major scale is a diminished chord -- In C: b, d, f. If you write it just as a vii, then most folks might play it as a minor chord -- b, d, f#. I guess you need to add that little diminished symbol to the vii symbol to ensure that it is played correctly (although some folks would try the vii as a diminished chord first).

Here's a link showing the chord symbols for the diatonic major scale/chords: C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished.




EDIT: Dang, I just noticed that BIAB uses all upper case for its roman numeral display. In C:
Cmajor = I, Dminor = IImin, ... , Bdim = VIIdim. That seems so non-standard to me.

Zero,

What Kevin says about lowercase for chords that use a minor 3rd up from the root and uppercase to denote chords that use a major 3rd above the root is an excellent way to distinguish the two.

This is something that developed in the last 100 years or so. Prior to that the classical musicians would use VI for the default, diatonic chord based on the 6th note of scale of the key signature. Thus in the key of C major, VI classically means Am. (Even today, there are theorists who prefer not to use lowercase Roman numerals.)

When chords outside diatonic harmony were used in the past, there were different techniques to employ. In the case of A7, this would have been considered a secondary dominant 7th and so it would have been written as V7/II (since it is the dominant 7th chord of II (Dm) if note II were temporarily considered the key at that point in time - that is V7/II leads to chord II).

Thus the progression I VI7 II7 V7 classically means...
C Am7 Dm7 G7

By comparison, the progression I V7/II II7 V7 means...
C A7 Dm7 G7

Here's an article about secondary dominants in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_dominant

Regards,
Noel

Hello Again

Noel, there seems to be conflicting notations, I notice you don't make use of lower case. Wiki does it seems.
Also (talking C) it is notable (not saying it's wrong)that the A7 is regarded as the Dominant of Dm, as the chord build on the fifth would be a Am. I am perfectly cool with this though as I understand that in minor harmony the fifth mode is 'dominatized' .

I have a set of jazz ballads that I am presently taking through all 12 keys. In order to do this I am creating chord tables in Roman Numerals. Once I have got a robust system of my ad hoc notation, I want to use it so as I can forget keys and just play any in any key, by glancing at the structure.

What do people think of this site?#

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/44

Do be sure to click on a sentence as the image changes in context

The bit that really starts to do my head in is the way the inversions are notated using 6 and 4. That makes my brain cell hurt!

I think I will stick with 1 for first inversion and 2 for second.It's ridiculously hard to achieve the 6/4 fraction in WORD.

Z

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxud1uxsuvs9axb/Over%20The%20Rainbow.docx?dl=0

Is my prep sheet if your interested - you might find it useful. The melodies are just memorised.

Z

Try this site ...

http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=87&la=en

Also, if you want a good book to read on the principles of harmony, I suggest the original Walter Piston book called "Harmony".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Piston

His book was published in the mid-20th century. Professor Piston is one of America's great theorists. He only ever used uppercase Roman numerals. I don't know whether his revised edition (edited and added to by another music academic, Mark DeVoto) uses uppercase or a mixture of upper- and lowercase.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. At the end of the day, the best approach is to do what works best for you. I prefer all uppercase Roman numerals because the major/minor 3rd is accommodated by the key signature in diatonic harmony. I also prefer using the system that incorporates aspects of figured bass with the Roman numerals (as mentioned in the page you posted the link to).

For example ...



In the key of G major, the above chords would be Bm, Am (first inversion), G (second inversion).

In the key of Am, the same notation would refer to Caug (if one uses the harmonic minor scale), Bmb5 (first inversion), Am (second inversion).

By the way, that's a very understandable notation that you've put together for "Over The Rainbow". It does the job well. That's all that matters.

Thank you Noel,

Yes I have the Piston, read it some years ago. I only read treble clef fluently, unfortunately, so the examples are beyond my reading skills. As it is late in life for me (I started piano about six years ago at 54) I skipped the reading, except real book style, which is not a problem. I don't do much classical, though I memorised some Bach. I find memorisation prevents sight reading skills from developing - but that's another thread....

PS I have tidied up the template