bin using biab for dozens of years. recently purchased mixer to feed biab background rhythm from laptop thru mixer into sound system. All of a sudden music will lose temp, speed up or quit all together in middle of song. very disconcerting when playing along as soloist to audience. Have changed drivers in computer, but problem persists. Often it does not show up until later in the performance, e.g. runs well for an hour then starts to crater. need help urgently. Traditionally mixer used by live musicians to feed sound through amp. Because biab is computer generated music, can there be a conflict coming out computer thru mixer. any help or advise greatly appreciated.

Welcome to the forum.

I do not think the mixer has anything to do with it. If your problems started with the new mixer, that's likely a coincidence. I suspect your laptop, either hardware or software running on it.

Bear in mind we are fellow users. You can always call PG Music Support if we can't figure this out.

Could you please tell us some info so we can get started?

Windows or Mac? And what version operating system?
What version of BIAB?
What kind of laptop, and what is the soundcard?

Windows 10 2016 BIAB, Will advise type of Laptop, but it is less than 1 yr old. Thx so much for responding, as we are totally at sea on this. We have used BIAB for at least a decade, changing up to the newest model as they come out. It has always been a totally dependable system upon which to build our music until very recently. We have changed sound cards and upgraded drivers. It is so strange that the problem started when we added the mixer.

“It is so strange that the problem started when we added the mixer.”


Not enough information, as Matt said. What was your signal path before you got the mixer? What is your new signal path? How are you routing the signal from the laptop to the mixer?


The BIAB tracks are actually slowing down?


Regards,

Bob

flugelboneman,

Welcome to the forum.

Do you always perform at the same location? Are all your equipment plugged into the same power receptacle? Are you using an extension cable from the power receptacle to your equipment location for power?

I suspect your equipment is experiencing a power issue. If your equipment is receiving power from multiple receptacles then there may be a ground or phasing issue between the power circuits. If you are using an extension chord the cable may be too small for the amount of current your equipment requires.

Hi Bob

Thx for ur interest. We have performed at many venues, but power source usually good. We do use an ext cable but is is short and wide in diameter. I guess the issue is that BIAB has been consistently excellent for decades. Recently, we changed computers and added the MG10 Yamaha mixer. Those are the two variables recently. We currently are having the computer examined for adequate drivers and sound cards. We are told that the MG10 mixer is a good product and , probably not the culprit, and we agree that it is unlikely that the mixer has contributed to the problem. As also mentioned before, it is unsettling to be rolling along on a song, doin our thing when the background rhythm provided by BIAB goes wonky, either changing tempo or quitting altogether.

“...either changing tempo or quitting altogether.”

That's the bizarre thing. Jim's suggestion is a possibility – power can fluctuate wildly. Do any of your amps or stage lights dim when BIAB goes wonky?

It's not the mixer. It's a good little board. How are you sending the BIAB signal from the laptop to the mixer? Miniplug? USB? Balanced XLR?


Regards,


Bob

Yamaha MG series are not USB.

No power fluctuations. We connect with USB.

How do you make the USB connection? Can you list the inputs/outputs?

The MG10XU series does have USB with stereo send/return. It uses ASIO drivers.

I recently read of two other USB mixers experiencing the same drop out issues. One was the new Soundcraft Multitrack mixers and I don't recall the other brand but both brands experienced issues as the poster described and the fix for both was to replace the original USB cable with high quality USB cables designed for audio transfer.

The poster may want to give that a try.

Charlie

Man. I have both Yamaha and Soundcraft mixers.

Fortunately, they are a bit more high end, and have never given me problems. Good call on the USB cable Charlie.


Regards,

Bob

thx Charlie,very good advice, will make the change.

Thanks Bob and flugefboneman. Hope that's all it turns out to be.


Charlie

The USB cable might be bad, but I still don't see loss of data transfer causing audio to "lose temp, speed up or quit all together in middle of song."

Maybe the signal coming in and out, or static, but "speed up"? That's weird.


Regards,

Bob

I agree. But maybe it sputters like a water hose when it's pushing air and water??

A poor quality cable and poor connections could introduce interference that the cable would transfer down the cable the same as data. The data would not necessarily be lost but maybe delayed which would compress it into following data that could sound like a skip (dropout) or the data sped up the same as water in a hose will burst out under the pressure of being pushed by air and exit the hose at a higher rate of speed than the normal water flow.

I would start with the cable since the issue is similar to others symptoms that replacing the cable solved the issue but the mixer could be bad or the computer could have a problem. It could be as simple as a buffer setting isn't correct, bad driver, memory issue.

It will be interesting to see what actually solves the problem. I hope the poster keeps the forum updated.

Really makes you miss the old acoustic days, no?

Charlie, what are the electrons doing while they are delayed?

Not sure Matt. Electrons are above my pay grade and in another department. I was just passing office gossip. <g>

I was trying to dazzle Bob with Science.... My science - not the real thing - you outed me.....


Charlie

We gonna switch the usb cable. Will let u know how we make out. When we get to Carnegie Hall we don't want our backup to back up.

You do know how to get to Carnegie Hall, don't you?


Regards,

Bob

Hi Guys

Just to let you know, upgraded USB cable, changed computer drivers did almost everything possible. Did a rehearsal and played every song on gig list with no problem. Played a gig today and all of a sudden, BIAB speeds up and gives us the total willies. We are totally flummoxed. Now will change lap tops completely to see if this helps. Currently we are totally paranoid when we start out a selection, waiting for the background to pervert. Its amazing after using six different BIAB updates and never a prob in 12 years.

Fluglebone man and I are musical buddies so I'll put my two cents worth in!
First of all, the computer is an Acer Aspire E5-551 Windows 10, 64 bit with 8 gb RAM and about 800 gb free on hard drive.We've had it checked over by a technician and reinstalled the audio driver.
The mixer we use now is an MG10XU that we connect to the computer with a USB cable. The previous mixer was a Mackie that was hooked up through the computer's headset out jack.
To clarify what's happening, the "bouncing ball" black line that shows the music's position on the chord page of BIAB will occasionally stop for a second or so during playback. The music stops at the same time then continues as if nothing is wrong. You can imagine what that does to the musicians. It never speeds up but sometimes it stops completely and doesn't continue. We can open another song and it usually plays through with no drop-out.
We did a DPC Latency check which showed a maximum spike of 1400 ms.
Hope this helps.

Wow. Gretschky and Fluglebone! Great Band name.

Sounds to me like something is running in the background and tripping up BIAB. Eddie is the one to troubleshoot this though - HELLO.....EDDIE.....YOU THERE???

“It never speeds up but sometimes it stops completely and doesn't continue. We can open another song and it usually plays through with no drop-out.”


Have you gone through all the songs to determine if it's just affecting certain songs? If so, they might be corrupt song files.

I would disable everything not BIAB related on the laptop. Windows Updates, virus protection – everything. Your computer has plenty of juice. Check out what's running in the background.

Then, of course, there is the old “Return To Factory Settings”.


Regards,

Bob

Thanks, Bob. I don't think that there are any corrupt files because we've played the stuttering/drop-out ones later and they are fine.
We had disabled WIFI, Anti-Virus and everything that wasn't BIAB although it's possible that we missed something so I'll take your suggestion and go through it again.
I talked to PG Music and we returned BIAB to factory settings as you and they suggested - still with no luck.
Geesh!

Do you absolutely need to render the BIAB file every song? Are you arranging on the fly?

I prefer fixed tracks, and use MP3's exclusively. I'm singing lead and playing guitar, and there is no way I could mix or arrange on the fly.

I know a guy who brings the entire Jet Propulsion Laboratory to a gig. I'm too simple for that.


Regards,

Bob

Band-in-a-Box "builds" a song different than what you might suspect. It "builds" the first few measures, begins to play the song and "builds" the remainder of the song as a background task while also continuing to play the song. In theory the BiaB media player should never catch up with BiaB's construction of the song. In practice the media player may catch up to the construction and when the media player catches up it pauses and waits for more construction to be completed. The process is comparable to watching a video over a slow internet connection. You download part of the video prior to viewing the video, you begin to watch the video while the remainder downloads in the background. If your viewing position catches up to the downloading position, viewing pauses.

One way around this is to use RealBand to play your songs. RealBand
completely 'builds" a song before the song begins to play.

Another way to minimize the issue is (BiaB 2016 build 438) to open "Options" > "Realtracks" to open the RealTracks Settings window and place a check mark for the settings "speed up generation of realtracks (disable on slow machines)" and "High Quality Tempo/Pitch Stretching (disable on slow machines)".

Another option is to render the songs to an (wav, MP3 or wma) audio file and use the media player of your choice the play the audio files.

I'm going to answer Jim and Bob together.

Bob Wrote, "Do you absolutely need to render the BIAB file every song? Are you arranging on the fly?"

I prepare the song in BIAB (choose the rhythm accompaniment, etc.) then hit 'Generate and Play' and after it's generated hit 'Freeze' then save it into a folder in BIAB as part of our gig list. When it's time to play the song I open the folder, click on the song and when it's loaded, hit Play and start strummin'.

Jim, we use Real Band for most of our songs. We had already checked, "speed up generation of realtracks (disable on slow machines)" but didn't check "High Quality Tempo/Pitch Stretching (disable on slow machines)" so I'll try that.

"Another option is to render the songs to an (wav, MP3 or wma) audio file and use the media player of your choice the play the audio files."

We hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the suggestions,

Danny (aka Gretschky) and Ian (aka Flugleboneman)

You're making it too hard on yourself. Mix the tracks down to MP3, pick up this free program, and Bob's your uncle.


http://www.mike-warren.net/dfbhelp/


Regards,

Bob

Thanks, Bob. We'll have a look at it for sure.
I listened to and bought your song, Run, and love it!
Danny

Thanks Danny. You will like Digital Fakebook. It gives you lyrics as well.


Regards,

Bob

That sounds like problems I have had in the past.
First suggestion, export mix to WAV file or available file of your choosing.
Put the file on an external storage, like a thumb drive. Load it and play it on a known good computer. ( I take it you are playing this file directly into the board as part of the mix, like you would a backing track or like that. ) If problem persist, might be the board. Return all settings to default or find someone who knows that board. Boards are a specialty in themselves. These are just ideas.

I eliminated a lot of problems, such as latency, when I started using a Tascam or other brand 8-track portable digital recorder. I'll make a Band in the Box track, save it as WAV, and plug the recorder into a USB and drag & drop into a folder on the digital recorder. Actually, you can save each track as individual WAV
and load them one by one onto the recorder's flash card, then load to individual tracks. This would be rare, but for a serious work.

First, if you have immediate gigs coming up then by all means render these tracks to MP3 or even wav's if you have the space and just play them.

But the bigger picture is this sounds like a ASIO driver issue. I used to get that kind of thing every time I used ASIO on my old system. Any time people report glitches like this the standard reply was to not use ASIO and switch to the MME drivers. MME has latency but unless you're playing a midi controller live that doesn't matter. All you're doing is playing along so nobody cares if the song starts playing a third of a second after you hit the spacebar.

If this fixes it then later when you have time you can track down what the problem is with your ASIO driver. But, if you not playing any kind of midi controller be it a keyboard, a wind controller or guitar controller you don't need ASIO anyway.

Bob