Could you pls help me with this question.

If you generate a song in BIAB, usually it only has a few tracks (bass, drum, guitar, piano, synth).

If you add your own vocal singing the melody, and some harmony vocals, it seems you still only have about 10 tracks.

But when I saw some mixing tutorials on the web, especially for the professional songs, apparently a song may have 60, 70 tracks.

How can you have so many tracks? Could you pls explain what tracks you should or can add after generating the song in BIAB?

My sincere thanks,

My jazz CD had 32 tracks, not unusual for 13 players, but even that was complicated to mix. What you may not know is that a set of drums can easily eat up 12 or more tracks, with separate mics on each part of the kit and some overhead mics. But if somebody needs more than ten to record a single singer-songwriter, they are probably just showing off their mic locker. Not only that, but there are very precise placements required when using multiple mics. It is normal to double up the lead voice for some added depth, but I also cannot imagine why so many tracks. Mixing expertise is something that takes time and experience to develop. You can read a lot and get opinions but ultimately just go with what you know sounds right.

And even with the same instrument, you don't always put it on the same track. You might want different effects applied at different parts (perhaps the solo is processed differently than when playing the chordal parts). Putting the same instrument on multiple tracks gives you great flexibility in managing the sound.

You might find yourself doubling some tracks to fatten the sound. You might double harmony tracks to get a choir feel. Even if you only have a few drum tracks, you will probably have separate percussion tracks for each instrument. You might split your harmonies to multiple tracks. If you go for an orchestral feel, you are definitely going to have a bunch of tracks, depending on if you use a "strings section" sound or build it yourself with individual instruments.

If you do a mix of MIDI and audio, you will probably render each MIDI track to an audio track, but keep the MIDI track (even if muted) in case you need to make any changes and re-render.

It's easy to find yourself with many many tracks.

BIAB has a feature that allows you to gain additional tracks that effectively provide the means to exceed the 8 track physical limitation. Each track in the mixer can have as many as 10 different instruments. Using the bar settings menu, near the top, select the Realtracks button and follow the prompts to quickly select and load an instrument at any bar. Changing instruments this way duplicates having two tracks and using F5 to mute/unmute between the two instrument tracks. So, using all 10 of the available instrument change slots equates to 10 tracks. This could result in having 60-70 instruments in a normal BIAB 7 track song. (no audio track recorded, all BIAB tracks) a fast and easy way to check out this feature is to create a chord chart and search for "medley" in the stylepicker. BIAB has created several medley styles that change by bar and part marker.

An added benefit to do instrument changes on a single track is BIAB automatically adjusts to the changes and creates smooth endings, transitions and intros.

Great advice from all of you. My sincere thanks.

I will try out gaining additional tracks in BIAB.

Normally, my tunes have about 12 to 18 tracks. Sometimes less, sometimes more. It really depends on the song. I think the most I have used is about 24.

Professional studios that record the songs you hear on the radio often have well over 100 tracks.

It's not uncommon for a song project for a hit singer like Mariah or Beyonce, for example, to have well over 100 vocal tracks alone. Keep in mind that not all the tracks will be complete tracks. They may have just a section of the song....a verse or a chorus, or even as small as a line or a word. That gives the mix engineer a lot of options for finding the perfect take and comping it out to the final vocal track. many of those tracks will end up as doubling and harmony tracks in the final mix.

In our home studios, we often don't have the reasons to lay that many takes so we might record several..... in one of my projects.... ( Missing Person ), there are about a dozen vocal tracks beyond the instrument tracks. There were 2 singers, and each had at least 3 lead vocal tracks as well as several harmony tracks. None of them were cloned. They were all unique recordings. When I mixed them, I took the best vocal performance and put it in the center and up front. The other two were -16dB or so panned left and right respectively. The harmony tracks were also panned L&R but at around -12dB for a thickening. Volume envelopes were used to bring the various tracks...vocal and instruments, in and out, up and down as needed.

For us it's around 30-40 normally.

Two takes of drums can easily eat up 16-20 tracks, so that's really not a lot.
During the writing stage this will be more like 20-30, but final takes often get a couple versions of each track .. then additional 'extras' like additional backup vox, a unique sound/effect here and there .. it can add up fast.

There have been only a couple times I can remember when the RB/PT limitation of 48 tracks caused an issue, but it does happen.

Thank you so much.

Regarding the instruments in BIAB, during the mixing process, do you usually double any instruments, hoping that the sound will be fuller? For example, the bass? Or do you just keep one bass as originally done in BIAB?

Hi Charlie,

It seems that I was able to do as you instructed when I clicked Realtracks.

Thank you so much.

I do not double BiaB instruments as a general practice.

A lot of producers when recording a live bass track record two feeds from the performance take. Though a DI (direct Box) into the DAW as well as they will place a mic on the bass amp. This gives them more versatility to manipulate the tone, fullness and adding effects. Many times the bass track is a mono signal so there is no advantage to doubling other than to increase the overall volume of the track without raising a slider or increasing the gain. Many RealTracks offer a direct in version of the instrument so the signal is 'dry' and available with no tonal treatments and the user can feed that signal into an VST amp modeler such as Amplitude or similar. That would provide a similar effect in BIAB/RB or any DAW to recording two feeds if you use the BIAB 'treated' track and mix that with the amp modeled DI track.

What I do more often is to use a number of different bass instruments from different styles to create a unique style from the many different instruments. This method provides a lot of additional RT audio for the BIAB generating engine to select from and I end up with a composite track that is virtually impossible to be replicated by another BIAB user. An example, and this is just an exampled because I don't know the actual amount of recorded audio a particular set of bass tracks I may select have, is assume for this example, each bass track has 1/2 hour of recorded audio. Using two bass instruments would provide the BIAB track generation and hour of audio to select from as it will access the audio of both RealTracks. Four instruments would be double that amount and so on.

It probably does not equal out to that example in a real amount of time because access is determined by the chord chart, but the percentages are accurate. In other words, the applicable recorded audio that the BIAB track generation would have access to would double by using multiple instruments.

Regardless of the actual RealTrack Audio accessed, you will be creating a unique, track.

It is sometimes useful to double a rhythm instrument and pan each wide to widen the stereo image of the recording but that is a technique that works better on some songs than other and really comes down to the mix you are trying to accomplish.

Great. Thank you so much for your informed advice.

You can sometimes get nice results with BIAB doubling rhythm guitar parts, because when BIAB is generating the parts each guitar track will be slightly different. Then pan those two tracks right and left.

Here is an example of a song I did using that technique, 99 Degrees

Sounds good to me anyway

The two BIAB tracks panned left and right are 364:Guitar, Acoustic, Fingerpicking Ev 065

In the final mix I usually only have 2 - 5 instruments playing at once at any given point in the song. Add to that a short interlude where a solo instrument cuts in for a few bars and add to that a lead vocal and some background harmonies.
Depending on the song some of those instruments might be stereo or doubled.
This could be up to around 10 - 12 tracks used in the final mix. My drums are always either 2 tracks or one stereo track of either RealDrums or MIDI drums.
During the process of recording I'll often have upwards of 20 - 30 tracks. But, they get muted in sections, I copy/paste/merge sections from them. One is just a tempo track. Others are first takes that have the original expression for reference. Others are ideas that I can't throw away 'cause I'm a hoarder. There are lots of reasons to have excess tracks that you never hear, or don't know they are there, in the final mix.

Under 10 tracks. That is using pre recorded drum tracks which probably had 5-10 mics on them. My ability to ‘arrange’ kind of falters after 5 tracks or so. We have heard MANY BIAB songs that could have used about 1/2 of the tracks used and it would have sounded less cluttered

For us excluding vocals it is typically 4-6. But that's because we favor open "airy" mixes that sound like something a small band could play live in a club, etc. I've mixed projects with many more tracks but, perhaps counter-intuitively, I find it more of a challenge to get a "big" sound with a "small" number of tracks.

No value judgements here....just our preferences. And I should mentioned that often one RT track in our mixes will be comped from many regenerations of that same track...but I count it as one

Bud

<<< But when I saw some mixing tutorials on the web, especially for the professional songs, apparently a song may have 60, 70 tracks.

How can you have so many tracks? Could you pls explain what tracks you should or can add after generating the song in BIAB? >>>



Bud, you actually get to the heart of the OP's original question. Your final mix plays what appears to be 4-6 instrument tracks but the total tracks used to get to that final count may actually be 30-40 tracks. Because of the unlimited track count of many DAW's, these producers he watches on YouTube rarely, if ever discard or erase a track. They save everything and their entire mix is a comp of dozens of tracks.

I recall one tutorial I watched on YouTube where the intro played a single guitar for 8 bars but the intro was comped from three different takes.

There is also a wonderful tutorial in the PGMusic videos and available on YouTube of the artist making a series of videos writing, recording and completing his project from start to finish. At one point, he creates a unique fiddle riff as a focal point of the song by cutting and pasting from 8 different tracks of a fiddle. He saved the riff and places the comp recording throughout his song.

I like to say it's best to have more tracks than you need in case you need more tracks than you've got....

I think there might be an opportunity here to discuss the difference between basic instrument tracks and additional tracks used for ornamental fills or patches (like a patch to correct a bad spot in a vocal.)

In brief, a BIAB “style” will give you four or five basic instrument tracks to write a song with. It is basically what the Beatles had to work with early on (track-wise) and they didn’t do so bad.

You do not really add extra tracks in BIAB. You add extra tracks by opening the BIAB file in Real Band (the free DAW that comes with BIAB) and generating more instrument tracks there. You add more instruments at your own risk. If you have more than eight or nine instruments in most popular songs, it is going to get way too busy. Eight instrument tracks in a band is about the norm.

Here is an example of what it means to minimize tracks: If in addition to your five BIAB tracks, you play a live acoustic guitar part perfectly the first time through, and decide to keep it, you have one extra track for that instrument part, which is the ideal, of course. If you have to do that in 10 takes on 10 different tracks and chop them up, things will get messy.

For most vocals, even if you do the main take perfectly, you will want to copy that at least twice to other tracks so you can experiment with different effects on each track and then do a blend of those tracks, experimenting with panning effects or other tricks. Or you may do backing vocals. There go another three or four tracks.

And now for drums!

Most people don’t know there is tone toggle on BIAB in the far right hand corner. Moving this and also the reverb switch on the drums will dramatically change their sound. You need to find a good tone for what you want and export at least one track completely dry to make your own effects later (EQ, reverb etc.)

I have found that with Real Drums, if you use at least 3 tracks of the same recording, you can get a pretty fair simulation of a live drum recording session by using EQs and effects (such as Izotope Neutron along with various EQs, including a 10 band EQ) to focus on the kick drum on one track, the toms on another, and the cymbals and snare on another.

If you spend enough time on the drums you can fool many people into thinking you have real drums—almost everyone except for drummers. Well, that’s not true. I have fooled one or two drummers on occasions, good drummers too.

While it may be true that some Nashville recordings have 300 tracks that doesn’t necessarily mean they are good songs. Many of those songs on the radio (to me) sound like a cluttered wall of sound and I can’t listen to them. I would rather hear a great two track song—one great guitar and one great vocal.

Most really good songs have about eight well-chosen instrumental tracks, a few good vocal tracks and as many extra tracks as you need to add what is needed.

The goal in any song is to get what you need done with less. Less is almost always better and more is almost always messy after a certain point.

So, bare bones:

Six to eight instrumental tracks.

About five vocal tracks (including doubles and background vocals).

Three drum tracks.

About 16 to 18 to keep it simple.

Hope this makes sense. Happy Holidays.

* Oh, one another thing, try recording Verses and Choruses (and Bridges too) on different tracks.

There may be a lot of argumentation on this point, but that's okay--and the point is I do not chop vocals. To each his own, but I may sing a verse 100 times but I won't chop it. Even if the take I use has "flaws" and is not "perfect" I find it impossible to get the rock and roll authenticity and passion I want unless all of it flows from one take. (Regardless of how many takes it took to get there.)

Others may do it differently and splice on and on forever and do just great with it, but I just don't find that works for me. I have to do it in one take to get the continuous sound I am looking for.

But again, to each his own.

The last song I finished, "Paradise" has 41 tracks on Pro Tools, 12 of those are BB. 8 of the tracks are vocal harmony and vocorder harmony. There are 10 stereo effects returns as well. I'll often create a second BB version with additional instruments, including different drum styles that can be changed during the song.
I had the advantage of learning engineering working in New York studios, including at Electric Lady under Eddie Kramer, so I get a kick out of building extravagant productions at home.
https://soundcloud.com/willrockwell/paradise

We do one or two vocal takes at most. Janice’s feels like a little is lost each time after that. But when she says she’s ready to record she has as floyd says “lived with” the song and she, well, is ready

We rarely ever use styles. Our recent rockabilly tune is the rare exception. I’ve used BiaB enough to “know” the RT’s that work for our Americana approach. I really enjoy starting with a blank slate and building a band - often from seemingly disparate RT genres.

I frequently, especially with solos, comp at the bar level and sometimes comping individual notes particularly when transitioning back to the vocal. I don’t like mixing with a number of volume shaped tracks of the same RT so I cut/paste into one track before getting serious about the mix. I’ll comp rhythm tracks to hopefully get a signature feel through the tune.

With RD’s I often double the snare (learned from floyd) so I have a max of two drum tracks - the kit and the snare.

Like David alluded to there are a zillion ways to approach all of this. And I deeply appreciate all of the productions with large numbers of tracks - it would make my hair hurt to try it

Bud, how can you double the snare if you are using realdrums? Or, are you building a separate snare track using loops??

I had that same thought when I read it, since RealDrums are stereo recordings of the entire drum set.

David S asked about this and this is what I sent him.

Several years ago floyd told me that he often doubled the snare by using a second track and positioning a snare hit snippet under each BiaB snare hit on the wave form. I later discovered that for each RD there is an audio file hidden in the depths of BiaB folders that includes several minutes of the drum track and at the end has the actual individual hits, e.g., snare, kick, tom, ride, high hat, etc.

So my method is to cut the snare hit out of the respective “hidden” RD drum audio file and use it for the double. Since the RD is, well, a real human, lining them up was tedious at first as the RD snare would not always be right on the beat but for a, say, three minute song it only takes about 15 minutes or so. Then you can process the snare track anyway you wish and it's the same snare that's in the original full kit. I used Ozone’s imager module to “spread” the sound a bit and them pan it dead center. Some times I'll pull out other hits from the RD audio file to build my own drum intro, etc.

Oh, my DAW (Logic Pro X) has a snare replacement function designed for it's drummers but it works pretty well on a RD; however, I think doubling them as mentioned above with the same sound works best. I love the snare sound that Mellecamp has had for decades and that's the sound I aim for. Farm rock

Bud

Very cool, thanks Bud! I'm going to try that technique on my next song

Do the same thing with the Kick on a separate track.

Then you can control both - Kick and Snare...

Hey Bud, I dug up an old post from the "Post your own Tips and Tricks" forum where I went into detail a little more on that in case anyone is interested:

Changing drum style within existing song

Thanks! I knew I couldn't have been the first to find that

Bud

OR,

for lazier people like me, you can double or triple the entire drum track then add a 10 band EQ to extract them snares and pull 'em out..

Technology can do it a lot of thangs...Tater Totts taught me this one...

You get double or triple your money with Band in a Box. It's almost as good as a Double Whopper with a super size side of fries at Thanksgiving.

A typical EDM track has 60 to 100 tracks. The magic answer is 'layering'. A lot of layering goes into tracks that are done properly. On synths, atmosphere, kicks and other elements as well like claps, hi hats, etc. 60 kind of seems low actually but again, depends on what kind of music you are making. For EDM is super low. Maybe even for trap music too.

Also go on Google and type 'Hyperbits Revolution'. Click on the first link and half way through the page is a video tutorial. It's an hour long tutorial and you'll learn TONS! Even if you're not and EDM producer, it should give you a good idea on how to make real professional tracks. Dude easily has over 80 tracks.

Good points.

One observation--actually several. EDM is kind of its own thing. It is also constantly evolving.

You CAN make an EDM composition with 200 tracks but you can also use any one of the EDM or techno styles from BIAB and add in your own string parts and piano parts and such and make an EDM song with 10 tracks or less.

Put side by side, it's user's choice. The listener will decide.

(I found the guy's comment about the basic Compressor unit looking like something from NASA was funny. It was like "Man you haven't seen complicated. That's a cereal bowl full of fruit loops and warm milk, dude.")

Anyway, in music you can do anything you want. If you want to paste together a great song with 5000 samples, you can do it. But you can also do great song in EDM with 12 tracks or a great jazz song with 3 tracks. Or one.

Also, people who play instruments and who have been studying piano or guitar since they were two years old will never agree with loopers on how many tracks you need to make a professional song.

But, since you can do whatever you want in music, I say do it. If you write the greatest song in the world with two tracks and both of them done on the first take I say bravo. If you spend 4 days pasting together 100 synths to do as many variations of the same piano riff, well bravo to that too.

Come to think of it, though, I think I get the most goosebumps listening to Hilary Hahn do one track.

But, well, she has a lot going on, that Hilary Hahn.

One Track. One Take.

Hilary Hahn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3aloHY7I_g

No effects.

That's what I'm talking about.

Go Hilary.

Or wait.

Maybe 4 tracks.

Jeff Beck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKjHBd7nOiM

F.M.M. will know what I'm saying.



Tal Wilkenfeld was 15 at the time I think....

I think she was actually in her early 20's at the time of that Ronnie Scotts gig. And the ultimate track for me from that particular concert that showcases her talent is this one:

https://youtu.be/r3ZPWFKrocc

Doesn't get much better than that! I've probably watched that DVD 50 times, never gets old

Unfortunately that cannot be viewed in the U.S. from that link.

Man, that's too bad! Maybe this one will work for you: https://youtu.be/0Hg2zZ_7p0U

Well worth watching, she is amazing!

If not, do a search for "jeff beck cause we've ended as lovers ronnie scotts"

No luck in the U.S. again: "This video contains content from Eagle Rock. It is not available in your country."

This one does it: https://youtu.be/NCRvSe_YiGs

I keep readindg here about how double tracks fattens up the sound.how does that work?If I copy and paste my vocal to a second one surely it just makes itlouder.Then I'd have to knock a few db off both and I'm back where I started.
Open to offers!lol
Wendy

Hi Wendy,

If you just copy and paste your vocal onto a new track then yes; when you combine them you will just end up with a vocal twice as loud.

To get a fatter or bigger sound the best way is to actually sing the same part twice. The reason it then sounds fatter is because it is just about impossible for you to sing them identical both times, they will be off slightly in pitch and in timing.

There are tools that simulate this doubling effect, but best way is to just sing it twice IMHO.

Hi Wendy,

Dave's advice is very good. If you can't or don't want to sing it twice there are a few tricks you can try:

1-Copy your vocal twice. Pan you first track dead center. Pan the second track far left and detune it down a couple of cents. Then pan the third track far right and detune it up a couple of cents. You would do this in a DAW. If your DAW doesn't have detune the use your pitch bend.

2- using either two vocal tracks panned left and right or the above three tracks put a different subtle effect on the far left and right tracks. Maybe a little delay, or reverb or chorus.

3- on a single track put a very subtle chorus effect on it. This can thicken vocals.

4-there are doubling effects out there that combine panning and effects. Waves has one https://www.waves.com/plugins/doubler and it is very good.

5-Copy you vocal twice. Pan you first track dead center. Pan the second track far left and move it forward a tick or two. Then pan the third track far right and move it back a tick or two. You would do this in a DAW. Combine this with #1 and/or #2 if you wish.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Very similar to Mario's step 5: I getter a fatter sound by duping the main vocal twice, especially on the chorus. Pan those two new copies one hard left and one hard right. Shift the left track 10ms earlier and right track 10 ms later than the original vocal in the center. Thickens up nicely.

I think this last series of posts gets at what I was trying to offer earlier.

I ALWAYS copy the main vocal to at least two other tracks. The main stays center and the other two go left and right--slightly, I mean ever so slightly--panned.

The left and right vocals get some treatment, different for each track, maybe something from Nectar on one, and one of my own "homemade" effects chain strips on another with some tape saturation, or plate reverb, and additional EQing.

The MAIN vocal track on my stuff is sometimes completely dry and set just a little higher than the others--this gives my voice a more natural sound, but the other tracks add sweetness.

For my genre, I want to hear the grit and emotion in my voice, even the imperfections, because I am doing rock, or folk rock, or pop rock.

There are many ways to approach this but that is my recipe.

Also, your vocals will never sound twice as loud with a doubled (duped) track. The only way to make it louder is to increase the volume or gain.

Finally, signing along with yourself for another take is a whole different ball game and effect--it creates exactly what it sounds like--you singing along with yourself.

If this is not the effect you want (which is immediately evident) you need to copy and paste the track.

Hope that helps.

Happy New Year everyone.

Guess I’m the odd man out - what surprise

Janice is down with one take almost always as she is a bent note singer and doesn’t like the structure of having to phrase the same way for a doubled vocal. But she will double harmonies on collabs and the wave forms look identical. Go figure.

Anyhow for leads on most of our user forum productions I double her lead and stack them both dead center. Each has somewhat different Nectar 2 settings and I use Ozone’s Imager on one of the tracks.

Many ways to approach this. Big grains of salt and a FWIW and a happy new year!

Bud

Man, some great tips in this thread!

A few mentioned here I will be trying out in 2018 for sure