Is There Such A Thing As Too Loud When Mixing or Mastering? (Article Link)

Numerous forum conversations have started with a simple question, "How loud should my finished project be?" +++ This +++ answer probably isn't what many of us thought the answer would be.

Good read, thanks!

A very interesting read, Jim. Thanks for sharing

Noel

my latest song: Deciduous Love (Rock Ballad)

Very interesting read. Thanx for sharing Jim.

I knew this except for the TV info. Good article, easy to read, technical but understandable by musicians. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Jim,
I knew this and mix/master all my stuff using a LUFS meter which I have set at about -14 to -16 LUFS. This seems to work really fine for MP3. I then use MP3Gain to set the MP3s at 90 (higher than the 89 default.) However, What no one seems to speak about is what is a good or the best peak level. What difference does setting the peak at -1 dB make to setting it at -3dB. It seems that this is arbitrary and really is about clipping. But what is the effect of going too low. E.g. bouncing a master to -14 LUFS with a peak of -0.5 may clip. To go to -3 won’t clip. Going to -1.5 May or May not clip. I am really lost and hung up on this. Maybe I should not worry but it is all about learning.

Tony

Interesting article!

Quick question about LUFS in regards to the Streaming and iTunes section of that article, I'm sure someone here knows this and LUFS is just something I've started paying attention to

The article says they check the loudness of each track and "then a playback gain offset is calculated for each track so that they all play back at similar volumes usually -14 LUFS"

I'm experimenting using my latest song and running it through the iZotope insight meter. There are two numbers it gives for LUFS, three actually, but two that I think are relevant. Those are Integrated LUFS and Momentary Max LUFS.

When I play the entire song I end up with an Integrated LUFS of 14.1 and a Momentary Max LUFS of 9.2.

My question is when the streaming service is checking for loudness, are they looking for the average loudness or the peak loudness? i.e. is my mix too compressed because I have a peak of 9.2?

Dave,

It's the 'Integrated' that sites use. As I understand it, this is the one that calculates the LUFS of whatever section is played. If the whole song is selected then the averaging is of the entire song.

Regards,
Noel

Dave et al, see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31zHqzjRn4c&ebc=ANyPxKpo7IGcp2tDKBGyKs8nmUJje2ijq07cMLdpDa7Byg7AtujheHkK_9Byl279D3aK-sHswlX9RPN6bwaZqr-ByZjqyJyWJA&time_continue=2#fauxfullscreen

This seems to explain the LUFS bit.

More is in this video where he shows what happens to loud tracks that are streamed https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Yfl6KGRk8&ebc=ANyPxKqoA9IL7iZp5Uw1VINp1Rk9bFrAzptS_o2dDLbmKUjwqRwSbMVHNxOEPz8GRJs7kZUJYtONpyzoCc8pDD14ayYcthRjgA

Tony

Originally Posted By: Noel96

Dave,

It's the 'Integrated' that sites use. As I understand it, this is the one that calculates the LUFS of whatever section is played. If the whole song is selected then the averaging is of the entire song.

Regards,
Noel

Perfect! Thanks, Noel

Good video Tony, thanks! Watching it now ....

Dave I added another video by the same guy. He shows what happens to levels in streaming services.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Yfl6KGRk8&ebc=ANyPxKqoA9IL7iZp5Uw1VINp1Rk9bFrAzptS_o2dDLbmKUjwqRwSbMVHNxOEPz8GRJs7kZUJYtONpyzoCc8pDD14ayYcthRjgA

Tony

Good read, and thanks for sharing.

There is but one answer though. 11. As we all know, THAT is THE magic number.

Originally Posted By: HearToLearn

Good read, and thanks for sharing.

There is but one answer though. 11. As we all know, THAT is THE magic number.

WHAT?

Ducking and running for cover along with Nigel.

Originally Posted By: Teunis

However, What no one seems to speak about is what is a good or the best peak level. What difference does setting the peak at -1 dB make to setting it at -3dB. It seems that this is arbitrary and really is about clipping. But what is the effect of going too low. E.g. bouncing a master to -14 LUFS with a peak of -0.5 may clip. To go to -3 won’t clip. Going to -1.5 May or May not clip. I am really lost and hung up on this. Maybe I should not worry but it is all about learning.

Tony

The newer versions of Ozone have a codec preview setting that will show if the project you are mastering will clip when converted to MP3.

Even better, built into the lurssen mastering console is a "Digital Delivery Mastering — “Mastered for iTunes”" function that is absolutely brilliant IMHO.

With that enabled your WAV files will never clip when converted to MP3. I have no idea how they manage to do it, but I've tested it extensively here over the last few months and it works as advertised.

Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude

The newer versions of Ozone have a codec preview setting that will show if the project you are mastering will clip when converted to MP3.

Even better, built into the lurssen mastering console is a "Digital Delivery Mastering — “Mastered for iTunes”" function that is absolutely brilliant IMHO.

With that enabled your WAV files will never clip when converted to MP3. I have no idea how they manage to do it, but I've tested it extensively here over the last few months and it works as advertised.

Thanks Dave, I am one of the number that purchased Ozone 8 Elements when on special a week or so ago. Using their Master Assistant which is brilliant and makes the job very easy however it sets a Peak of -1db which causes the Youlean LUFS meter to indicate the True Peak hits over 0db (usually snare or kick drum). However if you drop the peak to -2db no issues. This then drops the LUFS level slightly but you can easily lift it by dropping the threshold by about 1db.

I have found however if you drop the threshold (which increases the overall level) then MP3GAIN reduces it again by about the same amount. For my use there seems to be very little value in altering the threshold after dropping the Peak.

I don’t put what I do onto streaming sites. I just want reasonable backing tracks at the same volumes and that I’m getting.

Tony

Hi Tony,

I just had a look at Ozone 8 Elements, it seems it does not have the codec preview function I mentioned in my post. I'm using the pro version here.

Yes I agree, that Master Assistant function is great!

Man, all this makes my hair hurt. I've skirted around the periphery of learning about this topic but always seem to bog down. Sometimes the old dog just can't add another trick.

When I master I often find a reference recording from within the last five years by an artist that I like and for which a similar song is available. I then try and match it not by using Ozone's reference matching but just my listening (often my mastering consists of nothing but Waves' LinMB and Ozones's limiter). The below wave form of a recent project shown in audacity is, from a visual perspective, what I shoot for. And it's what my references look like and what everything I master nowadays tends to look like. And they all seem to sound about the same gain wise and don't clip. But I have only marginal hearing left (I cannot differentiate a 320 mp3 from a wav file) and from what I'm reading none of my approach matters regarding the streaming platforms. So w/o understanding this luft thing I fear we have an album on all the major platforms and 50 songs on Soundcloud that must sound like crap. A bit depressing.

Bud

I'm betting they sound just fine, Bud. The waves I produce look similar, i.e., not too compressed. The LUFS movement got started to put an end to the loudness wars, which as you know was all about compressing the crap out of your track so that it would sound as loud as possible.

It is the overly compressed tracks that now sound like crap when that playback auto gain offset is applied by spotify and iTunes, etc.

That is talked about in the second video Tony posted.