Hi folks.

For the past several days I was trying to solve a problem that I do not know exact cause of.

I came to BIAB from the world of hardware/software arrangers. So far, I was lucky to avoid such issues as latency with common cures.... Here is the issue: My software arranger has it's own synth and it outputs WAV files for individual tracks, similar to BIAB...

When I import these files to DAW they do not sync up well to time grid (and to files from BIAB) The BIG question for me is that I do not know whether it is plain latency or more vicious problem like tempo map errors. Before I try to cure something, I would like to know the cause...

Can anybody with knowledge about these things help me, by looking at a file and telling me what is exactly wrong with it... Is it latency or more than that...? It would help me a lot.

Thank you.


P.S. I took many (many!) steps tweaking hardware scenario / buffers etc. I am 99% percent sure it is internal to that specific arranger software, that can not be alleviated by "tweaking" hardware.... I think only option is... is to do something with the outputted files.

Hi Rustyspoon,

The Audio Chord Wizard would actually help you figure this out. If you import that audio file into the Audio Edit window and set all the bar lines using Audio Chord Wizard mode, then send of chords back to Band-in-a-Box, Band-in-a-Box will insert a tempo change on every measure to sync its bars to the audio.

If those tempo changes vary by much, then I would say that the audio file's tempo was inconsistent. If you have trouble doing this, feel free to send me the audio file. I might not be able to get to it right away, but I'll be happy to check it out for you when I have a minute.

Thanks
Kent
PG Music

Kent, Thank you for volunteering!

I was doing more experimenting with recording files on my arranger...
I used same chord grid and used different styles, recording separate tracks, and whole mix. I came to the conclusion that it is latency, which is very consistent with the rest of the tracks from my arranger. What I mean by consistent, is that all files outputted by arranger are in sync with each other, but not syncing with DAW grid or files from BIAB.

I am just trying to figure out how to sync files from BIAB with ones from arranger, with least amount of headache. It seems that what you suggested (Chord Wizard) might work... Not sure if it is possible to just get a Tempo Map from file to use in BIAB to compensate for latency...

I have a suggestion... If you think that might work, maybe you can do "show me how" video, that way it will be available as tutorial for somebody who faces similar issues. If you are up for the task, kindly let me know and I can give you file(s)... either drums or whole mix that have latency issue.

Thank you,
Misha.

Misha, is the amount it is not syncing consistent?

By that I mean is bar 2 beat 1 off the grid by the same amount as bar 1 beat 1?

If so can you just slide the track(s) so that they line up properly with the grid? Not sure what DAW you are using, but that is very easily done in Reaper.

Hi Dave, thanks for trying!
No, it is not that simple.
It is exponential latency. It is consistent within tracks exported from arranger. You do not feel it first 4 bars or so, than it is more and more evident. By bar 20 it is a chaos.

It is an uphill battle with developer of that arranger record audio of correct tempo. I am 99% sure it is not related to my hardware. I am left with current and future files from arranger and BIAB. I hoped that joining those two file sets would be a love from first sight, but it feels more and more like arranged marriage

Misha.

Hi Misha,

So, it's almost like the BPM is off by a fraction. You wouldn't notice it at first but the more the song progresses the more out of sync it will get.

Hopefully someone smarter than me will have a solution!

Misha, I've had similar issues in the past in which one tool handled BPMs by whole number and another would handle to one decimal place to the right. When I would look at the tracks in my Pro Tools DAW you could see at the end that they didn't line up. I used a stretch feature in Pro Tools to drag the set of tracks that were off to line up at the end of the song and it worked. Not sure if you have that capability in the software choices you have.

Dave, Steve,
Thanks for trying!

You essentially speaking of same thing. It would work, if lets say one set of files was recorded at 100BPM and the other at 105BPM. I can see that stretching would work... In my case, I believe it is exponential. It is sort of Fibonacci effect.
If it was one time deal, I would slice and dice the "thing" into 4 bar sections and just align everything, but it is far more than that.. I have many things already arranged in that software, and hopefully will be using it in the future. Just have to find the right method/workflow with BIAB. Tempo map, certainty sounds interesting.

Misha.

Misha,

Can you use Dropbox or equivalent to make a couple of files available and then post links to those files in this post? One wav file from your arranger keyboard and one from BIAB is all that we'd need. We could then download those files and see what exactly the the alignment problem is. It would be much easier to help find a solution if we had something physical to work with.

Regards,
Noel

To make things simpler I have uploaded two drum lines.
Both are supposed to be 105BPM. The BIAB syncs to time grid/bars perfectly in Cakewalk, the one from software arranger drifts away. Any line (bass, piano etc...) from software arranger drifts same way with same latency pattern.

BIAB:
BIAB 105 BPM



Soft. Arranger:
arranger


I know how to manually fix a track, but was hoping to find easier, more automated approach to fix this latency as a part of workflow, not surgery Would appreciate some input.

Thank you,
Misha.

Misha, The BiaB drums are spot on. The arranger drums drift. This is plainly shown but the pics below. Thus the problem is with the arranger. Probably due to BPM differences. Maybe the arranger when set at 105BPM isn't exactly like BiaB's 105 BPM. You may have to experiment with the arranger to get the BBMs to match BiaB. I can plainly see the drift on my Studio One DAW.

Mario, thanks for trying.
Yes, I am aware that issue is with arranger...
Arranger does not adheres to any clock. There are no special adjustments in arranger. This is the WAV file it records. The question is how to fix it right so files works with BIAB...

Ok pulling both files into Melodyne shows Drums105 @ 105.046 BPM and 105Drums @ 104.862 BPM. As Dave said fairly simple fix in Reaper. In Melodyne too. In Melodyne simply load the track it shows the speed eg 104.862 then set the BPM to 105 you can see the file shuffle then save the file.

My two bobs worth

Tony

Tony, thank you!
Can you please clarify something for me. So if I take 2 files The arranger and BIAB to Melodyne and set them at 105 firm (individually) / save them, they should be in sync, correct?

I never used Melodyne, but I believe I have a basic licence that came with Nectar...

Misha.

They will synch better but there still a bit of drift within the file

You would need Melodyne Editor or whatever to do stuff such as guitars the easier way is pull the drums into Melodyne it will tell you the speed. Then in Reaper set the speed to exactly what Melodyne tells you say 105Drums and set the Bpm tp 104.862. Then pull the file into Reaper. Change the speed to 105 Bpm and render. Then create a new project for Drums105 set the project speed tp 105.046. Do the same change the speed to 105 then pull the previously rendered file in and they should synch.

Tony.

Forget that it did not work as I thought. One file has drift within. I think.

For Logic Pro X it’s a very simple quick fix. Mark the track you want to match as the “groove track” and then any other track you select will align with it after a one or two second analysis.

I mention this under the assumption that other DAWs have a similar feature.

Cheers,

Bud

Ok I have it. In Reaper set up a project with the BPM @ 104.862 and pull in the file 105BPM drums change the speed to 105 BPM then pull in file Drums 105 BPM they then match spot on. It seems file 105BPM Drums (arranger) is out the other is on actually 105 BPM.

Also drop the level of 105BPM it clips.

Tony

Bud, Thank you for suggestion. I use Cakewalk, they have a tool called Audio Snap, I was experimenting with it without major luck. Very similar to what you are describing. Considering drums are the easiest of the bunch.

Tony, thank you for trying! I have done similar in Cakewalk. It allows resolution of 104.86 (which is close enough) I changed it like you described to 105 and imported second file.. Good thought but track wondered away in about a minute. It seems, there are internal tempo issues.

I know of a workaround as far as using software arranger to get the right tempo. Just exporting good old midi files.... What got me sold on software arranger is that it has it's own custom GM synth, which is pretty unique. It is "ok" for live "stand alone" setups, but exported files are nightmare to sync to something with correct tempo, such as BIAB WAVs.

P.S. Maybe developer of arranger will honor my request of fixing tempo issues. Hope is the most difficult thing to kill

I also use Sonar for some stuff but I found Reaper much easier for this type of thing. As I said in Reaper set the project speed to 104.862 and pull in the file 105BPM drums. Then change the project speed to 150. It will change to 150 and stretch accordingly. Then the second file can load normally (it is already 150). Sonar does not do the same thing as far as I know.

Yes shifting all transients is a huge job. I’ve been there and done that. That is why once I started manipulating audio files in Reaper I found it far easier than Sonar. I therefore kept Reaper as well as Sonar. I prefer Sonar to Reaper for midi (cntrl F1 gives a heap of scripts to manipulate midi in Sonar)

You could download the trial of Reaper. Convert the offending file, render it and pull it into Sonar to do the rest. Very quick. Just a thought.

Tony

Misha,

How did you create the mp3 from BIAB? I notice that it is 192 kbps, 48,000 Hz.

The arranger file, on the other hand is 192/44,100.

This difference in frequency might be impacting in some way. I'm not sure how but it is something to consider.

In BIAB, such a frequency difference can cause issues between MIDI and audio if the soundcard is not set so that BIAB can take control and operate it at 44,100. This is a Windows setting. (See image below -- it's #4.)

Also, rendered files in BIAB default to create an acidized loop which means that if you drop the audio into (say) Sonar, it will automatically adjust to the tempo set in Sonar. I wonder if this too might be impacting in some way?

These are a couple of things that I'd investigate just to make sure that they are not having any impact.

Regards,
Noel

Had a thought I should learn about dropbox.

Here are the files (I Hope)

105BPMDrums = Arranger =

https://www.dropbox.com/s/00i59lbk8kncqn3/son%20of%20fred-001.mp3?dl=0

Drums105BPM =

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gr3irjdf6j4d1yj/son%20of%20fred-002.mp3?dl=0

Both files are at 105BPM on my PC. 30 secs work in Reaper where they do match (once you know how)

I rendered them as 128 bit MP3, I also dropped the level on them to reduce the clipping.

If you want them better let me know it is easy to fix. This is as much a proof of concept.

You should be able to pull these into Sonar. But as Noel says check your bit rates are the same. Also I’d work with wav files until the final render. If the BIAB files are acidized then set Sonar so that the BPM is as per the Arranger (104.862). (There are many ways to come to a similar point).

I love problems like this. It keeps me sane.

Tony

Tony is right on the money with this. That's what I was trying to get at a few posts ago when I was saying if the tempo was off just a fraction of a BPM it would sound in sync initially but would get more and more out of sync as the song progresses.

I had to go through the exact same process a while back when my songwriting partner sent me a piano track that was slightly off BPM wise; I set reaper to the BPM of her file, loaded it in, then set the project tempo to the proper BPM, reaper does the rest.

Tony,
Thank you for testing!
I was very persistent and developer of arranger replied this morning with note, saying he is working on Midi SYNC in.
I am keeping my fingers crossed as this is a huge problem for me, that hopefully will get resolved the orthodox way.

If he fails, I will try Reaper approach.

Best regards,
Misha.

I had forum window opened since yesterday... now I see there is a second page

Noel, Dave, Tony,
thank you for taking a second look!

I have tried many (many!) ways, thinking it is related to audio settings or sound card or buffers. I tried internal / external interface. Asio card, Wasapi Exclusive, Asio4All. Running latencymon, disabling everything and recording in "airplane mode", recording live from computer to computer and some other weird approaches before posting here

I initially import WAVs from software arranger to DAW. They do not adhere to bars well by themselves. They start to drift after 4th bar... and I am not talking about jazz here. Silly Disco stuff that is pretty straight forward. Hopefully developer will keep his word and fixes tempo issues in his synth.

Tony, if developer fails, I think your approach is the easiest of all.

Again,
BIG thank you everybody.

Tony, spot on! Reaper did the magic!
I am surprised how well it came out.

When I was trying to fool around with file, it showed fluctuated tempo in Audio Snap...
Not sure how Reaper did it. Was it only BMP fix or it used a more advanced algorithm, like moved transient markers to make it consistent with bars?

Will sit some more with Cakewalk tonight. There must be a similar way if it is only tempo.
Good stuff to learn either way for future adventures

As I said Sonar behaves a little different. I used Melodyne to tell me the BPM of the file but I could have used Reaper (slightly differently). Then I set the Reaper project file to the speed of the worst file loaded the file and changed the project speed to 105. Job done. Then added the next file.

That was the method I used for simplicity. There is a more correct way in Reaper see Kenny Gioia videos about setting track tempos.

I know I keep on about it but I find Reaper much better than Sonar for audio tracks (stretching, altering tempos, slicing and merging) and Sonar much better than Reaper for midi (notation). There are tools in Sonar for editing midi most people are unaware of that I don’t think are available in Reaper.

I find it confusing that folk will have 10 or more compressors or EQs because different VSTs behave differently and yet try to do all in one DAW. Most DAWs have slightly different features and behaviours. Different tools for different jobs. Learning to use Reaper for example will enhance your knowledge of Sonar or RealBand or BIAB even VSTs. The same is true for any DAW I am not saying Reaper will teach you more but having multiple tools for multiple jobs will teach you more. IMHO.

See https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X3&language=3&help=AudioSnap.03.html

This may help to do it in Sonar.

Tony

Tony,
good point. For the available features and price Reaper is a winner. I have to wait for a vacation, so I have a couple of full days to explore it.

The only thing Reaper is missing (I think), is a touch navigation. Believe it or not, it was a game changer for me with Cakewalk. Navigating through timeline, pinch zoom on parts, dynamic track width and other good things. I will have a friend over on weekend, he is a Reaper fan. I will ask him to give me a quick tour into workflow.

Developer of arranger confirmed that work on MIDI SyncIn started. I never used it before, but I am exited as a child before Christmas as he said it will alleviate latency issues. The only part that I do not understand is to where it should be "synced in" to? To BIAB or to DAW? Since these are only 2 types of imported (not live) Waveforms I will be using, logic tells me that it has to be synced to BIAB clock if it works in that manner...

Misha.

Misha, actually I’m an idiot. I got thinking this cannot be hard in Sonar.

Ok. In Sonar - Set the project up at 105 BPM. Import both files onto different tracks.

On both tracks. Where the track shows “clips” select “Audio Transients” in the dropdown box.

Then on each track Right click in the clip and select “Enable Audio Snap” from the dropdown box.

In the audio snap box - under where it says threshold set the Resolution to whole (Whole Note). Then select the Quantize box set the Quantize to the whole note.

Job done in Sonar. Very simple, exactly as you want it.

Sorry for the angst. Marvellous what a belly full of booze can do.

Tony

Tony,
Thank you!

I need some of that Australian smartening belly booze.

Misha.