I am hoping a few of you will do me a favor. I am working on a blues project. I am starting the tracks at home with BB/RB and then taking Wav files to a studio to add some horns and do the vocals.

My engineer is older and he has a lot of experience in recording soul music in the South. We are using two horns, trumpet and tenor sax. The other night, he wanted the players to double the parts (stacking as he calls it). I was fine with that but it had an annoying chorus effect and I said something about it. Turns out he was doing it sound on sound so I am glad I did. He stopped doing it, but he said the horns would not come out well if I didn't double them. Also, he said all the Stax sessions used doubled horns.

So today I listened to some Sam and Dave, then some Otis Redding. The horns don't sound chorused to me at all. Reverbed, but not chorused.

The second thing is about vocal reverb and horns. I am listening to Al Green's Let's Stay Together. The lead vocal seems to be very close and intimate, with very little reverb. The horns seem dry and panned to one side rather than spread.

Does anyone have a few minutes to give a listen and let me know if I am missing something? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Here's a URL for DOck of the Bay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmUhYSr-e4

Here's one for Let's Stay Together:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COiIC3A0ROM

And here's one for Sam and Dave:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iki0DG9-ZG0 If you go out to :50, the horns are in a lot.

Thanks.

2b

You're looking for the sounds of the Memphis Horns - The core of the group being Wayne Jackson and Andrew Love. They were staff musicians for Stax records - On records for Sam and Dave, Otis Redding, Isaac Hayes, and Rufus Thomas. They were not exclusive to Stax records. They played for Al Green, Neil Diamond, Elvis Presley and Stephen Stills, Sting, Jack White, Alicia Keys and Peter Gabriel according to their Wikipedia site. Every song on your list above was performed by the Memphis Horns.


For modern day recordings 'in the style of the Memphis Horns', look on YouTube for The Band of Oz "Shama Lama Ding Dong" "Build me Up" and "Ocean Boulevard"; The Catalinas "Summertime's Calling Me"; The Chairmen of the Board "Carolina Girls"; The Fantastic Shakers "Walk with me Talk with me"; The Embers "I love beach music".


These are active bands and particularly, The Band of Oz do a lot of studio recording for other bands. Most have members that are originally from The Embers.

Thanks, Charlie.

2b

Hey, maybe I gave the idea that Charlie's post answered my question, but it didn't. If anyone has time to give a listen, I would appreciate your feedback. If not, I understand.

Thanks.

2b

To me you haven't clearly stated a question.
I could listen to all your posted samples, but what are you looking for?

Just guessing-
Chorusing effect is often due to phasing vs time alignment.
Doubling tracks (and slightly moving them) induces this.
Simply putting a delay on the track can induce this also.
How much Chorus is introduced depends on how out of time the doubled/delayed tracks are.

Is this what you are concerned with?
Maybe try to slide the doubled tracks around a bit in time to create the effect of a 'section' instead of a chorus effect.
These would usually be pretty small time adjustments.
Line them up closer.
Or maybe even try a phase correction plugin (or such) on the doubled tracks.

Thanks, rharv. I am just trying to figure out if something is there that I am not hearing. I've listened and had a horn player listen also. Neither of us can hear the chorus effect on the Sam and Dave or the Otis Redding.

As far as cutting the delay time, it makes sense. I think my engineer's problem is he wants to put the doubling on the same track. That means I am stuck with it if I don't like it. So I am going to have to tell him we can't do that.

Thanks again.

2b

Yeah, I'd keep any doubling effect separate enough to be edited later for delay times etc.

Glad it may have helped.
You may need to adjust this differently for, say, YouTube than DVD/CD in the future.


The more options we get, the more complicated it gets.

Your "engineer" isn't as knowledgeable as he claims to be if he's doing sound on sound and having problems with comb filter phasing (chorus effect)........ or, more likely, and or in addition to that...... he's just plain lazy. BTW: a good engineer doesn't have to double parts to make them sound good. But he does have to know what he's doing. You can decide for yourself which is the case in this instance.

Well.... technically he's correct. Horns sound good in horn sections..... BUT.... getting a doubled or stacked horn section to sound good, as you pointed out is not easy. It's better to record just one horn on a melody. Now if you notice, 9 in the example Dock of the Bay) there are places where the two horns are playing harmony melody parts. That's totally different and easy to record. It's when the 2 or more horns are playing the same exact melody that problems occur. It's called comb filtering. You have two very close notes and you have all sorts of things going on with the out of phase waves. Addition, subtraction, beat frequencies, all of that adds up to give you the phased sound you describe.

Go with ONE solidly recorded track for each. ONLY use the same instrument on parts that are harmony with no unison notes. ALWAYS record the instruments in their own unique tracks for each take. That makes it easy to change levels, edit notes out, etc,,,, in the final mix.

The way I work with stacked tracks is as follows.
1. Each take has it's own track
2. Each take is recorded in such a way as to ensure ALL notes start and end at the same time. Phrasing is super critical. No loose ends. Also.... using Melodyne to correct pitch drift is a really, really good idea as well. Nothing says "tight" like tuned parts.
3. If unison is used..... one track is the lead. The other tracks are panned fairly hard off center one way and the other. (3 tracks) One center, one hard left, one hard right. Both the hard panned tracks are also volume enveloped to be barely audible. In other words, down at the -10 to -14 dB below the dB level of the lead or main track. Doing this lets you have the fill you want..... but low enough that comb filtering is not very evident.
4. that time consuming effort is applied to each and every track that is stacked or doubled.'


None of this is hard and fast "rules" for recording, just guidelines. You can stack doubled tracks all day long with minimal problems but you have to know what you're doing and be working with well recorded tracks.

Good luck

Hey Herb, I really enjoyed your post. I was searching for something else when I came upon it. I was unfamiliar with the comb filter concept. Here's my thing. I'm a woodwindist. I've been doing quite a bit of pseudo horn section, using a combination of my tenor, alto, flute, but also with the TC Helicon harmonizer. I like using that because it generates some pretty complex harmonies and if they're low enough in the mix they can sound fairly convincing. Since I'm not particularly schooled in arranging, sometimes I'll use that inspiration to re-record on horn, what's been suggested. I'd love to have access to a trumpet player, heck a bone player too. Currently, I don't. What results is a reedy, buzzy sound with just too much saxophone quality going on. I've tried techniques similar to what you described with passible results. I'm interested in a really good synthesized trumpet, good enough at least in a block of horns to sound convincing. Grateful for any additional comments you might make. Thanks!

Thanks, Herb. I agree with everything you said. Thanks for giving me a second opinion.

2b

Hi Warren,

My suggestion would be to purchase an AKAI EWI USB wind controller:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...amp;matchtype=e

The reason for this is that horn and woodwinds do not sound real when using a keyboard. A keyboard and a breath controller come close but IMHO a wind controller is the best and as you are a sax player the EWI USB can use sax fingerings.

Also I would pick up either Kontakt https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6/
and the Screaming Trumpet https://realitone.com/products/screaming-trumpet

Or The Trumpet 3 and/or The Trombone 3
https://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products.php

Both of these come with the free Kontakt player so no more expense is needed.

I know this can get quite costly but IMHO these are the best sounding trumpets and t-bones.

MarioD, I'm more impressed with e-Instruments Session Horns
https://www.e-instruments.com/instruments/horns/session-horns/ and at that price! I've written them as they don't name RB as supported (not surprised). Oh, if I could get that to work with my current setup, I'd buy it asap! Any thoughts, folks? Thanks!

Warren, here are the specs for Kontakt Player 6:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/specifications/

Compare them to your system and if compatible then you are good to go.

Note the specs say 32/64 bit so it should work with RB. Is anyone out there using RB have Kontakt Player working?

PS - I have Session Horns and it is a good sounding piece of software.

Thank you MarioD! Here's what Kontakt said in reply to me "Band in Box supports VST, so Kontakt (and therefore Session Horns) should run. We do not recommend 32-bit bridges as this can have a negative effect on the overall performance." So my question- since I really want to use them in a DAW, should I take the chance, using jBridge w/ 32-bit RealBand and a bridge? Hate to move out of RB at this time but I think if they did not work well, that it would be sufficient reason to move up in DAW. Thanks guys!

The Kontakt Player specs say 32/64 bit so it should work in RB if you install the 32 bit version. Note that some software automatically installs both versions so you have to be careful to choose the correct version.

Also BiaB comes with a 64 bit version so you could use the 64 bit Kontakt Player in it and transfer the BiaB audio, i.e. wav or MP3, tracks to RB.

I have Session Horns (and Session Horns Pro), but I purchased as part of Native Instruments Komplete (not from e-Instruments). They do work in RealBand; however, I haven't looked at it in a while. I did have problems with the automated riff generator rendering properly; however, I believe with the help of Pipeline's input to Jeff Yankauer, the timing issues between RealBand and Kontakt were resolved and it should work. Hmmmm, I'll have to go back and check it. But for playing individual parts that you create, including the smart split of instruments from chordal input, it worked fine for me (at least in RealBand 2017 and 2018).

Well, as far as using RB vs. another DAW, I'd suggest that the goal is to create music, not use a particular tool. So pick what serves the music the best.

As for brass libraries... I've got Session Horns (not pro) and Vintage Horns, as well as Garritan's Jazz and Big Band. I've never really been happy with the sounds from these libraries, but I wasn't sure if the blame was with me, or with the libraries.

I've also got Embertone's Chapman Trumpet and Sensual Sax. Need a lyrical trumpet part or an 80's sax solo? They're excellent. For other uses, not so much.

I've had some amount of luck with brass loops. One thing's for sure: they're light on CPU.

I've been pretty harsh about WIVI Band, most of the instruments decent, with (IMNSHO) the sax. Here's a pretty good demo of WIVI Band trumpet.

There are still other brass libraries. FableSounds has Broadway Gig, which is a cut-down version Broadway Lites, which is a cut-down version of Broadway Big Band, their flagship library. But I've read that Session Horns Pro is probably more than comparable to it.

At the end of the day, it's about finding something that has the sound that you're after.

But if you haven't played the SWAM/Sample Modeling instruments through an EWI, you're missing out.


Off topic a bit... If there are USB EWI players on the forum - I'm looking at you, Mario - you might be interested in knowing that it can be converted into a wireless controller using off the shelf part for about $150. I got the parts the other week, and it works as advertised.

Very good information here. Adding to it is the fact that you can use a wind or breath controller with Garritan and Kontakt libraries. That will make them sound more "organic". But as you said nothing really competes with SWAM/Sample Modeling instruments.

Thanx for that wireless tip. Hopefully in the near future I can get those parts.