How do you tone down the jangly fizzy hats in rts (no stems) without losing the punch of the drums? Maybe I'm overly sensitive but some of these cymbals and hats really drive me nuts and eq alone or de essing does not seem to be answers. It can look fine in Tonal Balance 2 and still grate on my nerves.
I don't know - I've tried too much stuff - I get stressed and the tinnitus flares up - eck it all gives me a headache. Just me???? What's your secret sauce?
I NEVER use a ride and avoid as much as possible open high hats. I always double the snare and sometimes the kick. This lets me run the RD track a bit lower in gain but with a good snare pop and that "I think" makes the offending bits less noticeable. So...from a guy with tinnitus and a high freq loss it seems to work
Thank you Bud, I'm gonna try that on a new song I'm finishing up. Is there a musician or mixer/producer over 35 who doesn't have some high freq loss in at least one ear? That's a rhetorical question. The tinnitus freaked me out at first when I didn't know what it was but it's not constant Thank God. Besides, I looked that up and there are also lots of famous mixers/producers with that too. So you're in good company.
that is indeed a problem with real drum tracks. I posted about it some time ago.
My workarounds
I double the drum track in the DAW then cut and paste bars from elsewhere in the track to fix the really brutal moments. I can normally find something that works. A bit of volume automation and eq (to a degree) also helps
If you try this approach it really helps to match your BIAB track tempo with the DAW tempo so you can get easily clean cuts at the bar line. I normally replace a bar or two at a time. If its a single hit I typically use volume eq Having 2 tracks really gives you a nice visual picture of the work. At least for me
If the problem is throughout the track I generate another version or find a different drummer. Sometimes I'll use my DAW (Logic) drummer.
Admittedly the above are workarounds, not really solutions to the problem. Sometimes the resulting track is not all it could be. Still better than nails to the brain. Looking forward to stems.
I tend to go to the RealDrum QuickList and pick RealDrums that don’t have rides etc. Quite a number of RealDrums have many more choices than you see in the styles.
To get to the RealDrum QuickList “ To open the dialog, right-click on the Drums track button, and select [QuickList] RealDrums in Song from the menu.”
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. So I know the kick, snare etc., are at the end of each drum file. When I try to copy the snare or the kick into RB l'm not doing something right. What is the best easiest way to do this? Maybe I should be doing it in Reaper?
The following method by Kenny Gioia using ReaComp (or any other compressor) is something that I'd try in this situation. I use this approach with ReaComp for de-essing and it's excellent. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy.
The basic principle is...
1. Identify the range of frequency inhabited by the sound you want to remove.
2. Send that range of frequencies to a compressor (say, ReaComp) on a second track.
3. Have the track compress just this range of frequencies.
Adjusting the amount of compression can make quite a difference. Also, the ability to narrow the range of frequencies is also very useful.
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Another approach from Kenny that might also be useful is to create a band/channel splitter that allows for a particular frequency range to be manipulated with specific plugins. I've found that this is quite a useful technique sometimes.
Hope these thoughts open up some possibilities for you. Noel
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. So I know the kick, snare etc., are at the end of each drum file. When I try to copy the snare or the kick into RB l'm not doing something right. What is the best easiest way to do this? Maybe I should be doing it in Reaper?
Thanks again.
Josie
My method is not particularly relevant as my DAW is Logic Pro but FWIW. I use my wave editor to snip, for example, the snare out of the "kit file" that you mentioned. I then drop the that snare clip into a new track in Logic. I place it in the correct positions on one bar and then copy that bar across the file which takes about three minutes. I then set the RD track to what Logic calls the "Groove Track" and then set the snare track to lock to it. Bingo all the snare hits are perfectly aligned with the RD track snare. Just placing the hits on the proper position within the bars is not sufficient as the RD is a, well, real drummer and they are not perfect but Logic fixes that.
So the whole process might take 10 minutes. I then find a Neutron 3 or Waves CLA drum setting that I like for adding "pop" to the snare. And I do this with other "hits" when I think it will help. By doing this I can added the sound I want to the snare and as previously mentioned pull the RD down 2-3 db from where it would rest otherwise.
Another method I have used is to isolate the RD drum bit I don't like and create a volume automation lane to bring it down. I create the lane for a bar or two and then copy the lane across the entire song. I do is is when Janice plays cajon and I want to remove some of the competitive sounds from the RD.
For the most part, I avoid any RDs that use a ride or open hi-hat. Those are usually in the B sections of a RealDrum - so don't use those. Just use the A section (you can freeze that if you want the B section for other instruments. I find MANY of the crash cymbals in RDs to be far too loud. Those I tame with volume envelopes or remove and replace with a cymbal sample of my choosing (and a kick since they usually happen together).
A multi-band compressor can help accentuate the snare and kick and lessen the high-end sounds. Studio One includes a preset called "S1 Drumgroup" that I use (almost always). It includes a multi-band compressor and EQ set for stereo drums. Using a notch EQ to reduce a small band of high EQ can help, too.
I have done the add-a-snare-and-kick trick in the past. Manually placing the hit in my DAW. It is tedious, but only takes about 20 minutes for a song - (I tried to figure out if Studio One includes a feature like Bud uses in Logic, but I could never figure it out). I haven't done that in a long time though. The more recent RDs have snappier snares.
To get the single drum samples into an existing project.
Go to a blank track Import the base RD WMA file to that track Highlight/copy the sample of the drum you need Paste it to another blank track Rinse/repeat as needed Mute the WMA so it doesn't play during playback, or remove/delete it
I've also used drum samplers like the DR-500 to load these samples into a synth instead, but that's a whole different workflow.
Try adjusting the drum sound using the Band-in-a-Box audio mixer tone control for the drum track. You will be surprised at what a difference the BiaB audio mixer tone control can make to the sound of a track.
Another trick is to make three duplicates of the drum track. Equalize each track so one features the bass (kick) frequencies, the other the snare frequencies and the third the high hat frequencies. Then mix the three tracks to create a new sound you like.
As with almost everyone, I encounter this problem often with stereo Real Drum tracks. Step one is to try the other variations within that drum track in the hope that one avoids the sizzle. Often there're no options. In REAPER I use a high shelf cut that reaches as far down the frequenciess as needed with a pretty tiny Q. I'll often, when it's really annoying, add a 2nd instance of the EQ VST and do a band cut right on the most aggressive frequency and leave that "on". If it's only a problem in sections of the song - say - just choruses, I automate the bypass so the shelf happens when needed. Try to do the EQing AFTER and reverb etc as reverb tends to accentuate high freqs, (unless you've a reverb with pass filters & know how to use them). Finally using a mid/side EQ will allow you to address the side the problem is on AND a multiband compressor, oh so easy to stuff up so I try to avoid them, can do the work for you.
I have an EQ preset for BIAB RealDrums I can get a screen shot of that if you need it....It's set up with sections to combat click, click, to address snare and to deal with cymbals.
You can easily replace the track with a different one.... most of the time I like the drum track and try to find a way to peacefully co-exist with it.
I don't recall if you work in a DAW. That would open up a variety of options if you do.
I will often use EQ and multiband compression. If you have Ozone.... you have the tools needed to do this. But it can be accomplished with most other EQ and kind of with compression but to a lesser degree.
With a good multiband EQ, you can narrow down to the cymbal frequencies and notch them out generally without killing the rest of the kit. Do the same thing in reverse.... bump and boost the snare and kick freq. Using multiband compression can help with the kick and snare by tightening it up and leaving the remainder of the kit unaffected. Ozone has several tools that let you adjust the bands and boost or cut as needed. I've got a few Cakewalk default EQ's as presets for Drums that have the bottom fattened a bit and the top end rolled.
So where does a ride cymbal live Hz wise? Typically between 300-600 Hz, all the way up to 4-6k Hz for upper sheen. “Air” and high harmonics can go all the way up to 20kHz, and beyond the hearing range actually. What this means is that the initial cymbal hit is in the midrange. After a second or two, you are left with the higher frequencies that are in the 4k and up range. If the drummer is riding the cymbal or HH, you not only have the fundamental midrange hit..... but you have an on going 4k+ noise floor that is being introduced. Roll off the EQ from that point. It doesn't get rid of it but it does kind of hide it or take the harsh edge off.
Hope this helps... Those rides and HHs have gotten me a few times. Gotta learn about them and pay attention in the mixing.
This is such a strange thread for me, as I usually feel the need to work the snare, HH, and other cymbals to get more of their clarity (which is to be expected; I feel compelled to do the same with the multitrack drums we record with actual drummers). Hearing others have the opposite issue, makes me wonder if it is a genre/RD combination thing .. or if, maybe, I just mix different than others.
The problem you're facing is that since these are already recorded and mixed performances, you're stuck with the drummer's choice of cymbals and the engineer's choice of mic selection and positioning as well as his mixing decisions. There's only so much you can do about it; you can't unbake a cake.
If they gave you raw, unprocessed multitracks, you could do a lot more. But that would dramatically increase the file sizes and I don't think that most of BIAB's core userbase is that interested in engineering drum sounds.
Some combination of multiband processing or EQ automation might help to a greater or lesser extent but ultimately the solution might be to forgo the Real Tracks and use something else that has a sound more to your liking.
Depends on how much work and/ or money you want to put into it.
... makes me wonder if it is a genre/RD combination thing .. or if, maybe, I just mix different than others.
I suspect it's due to differences between amount and type of hearing loss, and amount and type of tinnitus between different people.
I rarely have a problem with cymbals and was initially shocked to find some people hated the sizzle. But I sometimes have issues with some sounds "jarring".
The tinnitus freaked me out at first when I didn't know what it was but it's not constant Thank God. Besides, I looked that up and there are also lots of famous mixers/producers with that too. So you're in good company.