Hi, all.

I have a challenge that a friend of mine said that's impossible to achieve.
I'd like to lower a voice 3 tones down, but keeping the most similar timbre from the original version.

Is it impossible, the way I was awarned?
If no, how to do it using Melodyne?
Or other tool?

Thanks.

My practical limit for pitch correction is three HALF steps. By tones, did you mean half steps or full steps? I assume half.

Melodyne Editor has the largest pitch range of any program I've used. I don't foresee a problem. You just locate the note on the grid and drag it up or down to change pitch (and left or right to change timing). Pretty easy, really, and very powerful.

Does your question have anything to do with Band-in-a-Box specifically? The new Playable RealTracks make pitch changes possible, but I haven't pushed the limits of how far you can go without hearing artifacts.

Welcome to the Forum.

Hi, Matt.

Thank you very much for your quick reply.

I'm newbie and I'm afraid to doing wrong actions.
I put a emoji into my reply and it goes just a part of it.
And I couldn't edit it...
Your system here is very severe...
I had to wait for 300 seconds... ...to post again.


This is the full reply:


Hi, Matt.

Thank you very much for your quick reply.

well, I mean full step.
But, yes, I have to explain more.

In fact, my goal is to change the whole song to a key 6 half tones lower.
Not just one or two notes.
I.e, from A to Eb.

But when I do that, the voice changes too much and gets another timbre and it seems to belong to another singer, not the same one.

Challenge is to adjust that modified timbre to return to the original one. Or, at least, to a very similar one.

I'm talking about the whole song, not only parts of it.

In Melodyne you use the format tool to change the timbre of notes. You might be able to get something close to the original timbre, however 6 half tones is a lot jump so you may run into other artifacts.

But the real question is how good is your friends hearing? The reason I ask is because even though you can move notes around they will not sound exactly like the original note. Each note has a specific set of harmonics/formats. When you move a note those harmonics/formats move the same amount as the original note while the destination note will have a different set of harmonics/formats.

BUT only a few people will be able to tell the difference. I worked with a guy whos daughter sang a wrong note so I moved it to the right note one step higher. He could tell that wasn't sounding right; he had no idea what I was doing while using Medodyne. Personally I can not tell the difference.

#Thank you, very much, MarioD, for your reply.

Sorry if I make dumb questions, but I'm very new to Melodyne.

Yes, I was aware that formant tool would be the right one to work on timbres.
I'll show as example of song that I'm trying to "transpose" key, preserving timbre.

First, I have the original panel:




So, I changed pitch from A to D#:





And moved formant back to A:






It show up too many artifacts, as you can see.
Is it normal?
Did I do the right procedures to achieve what I'm trying to do?

Thank you, MarioD, but my reply is awaiting the Moderation approval.

Now, waiting for some comment about my previous post, if I did the right thing to lower the key (keeping the timbre) and if there is a better way to do that.

Anyone?

That's a tritone worth of pitch change. I don't know any wind instrument that can retain the same timbre after that much change. This is one of the reasons why I have trumpets pitched in Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G and A. Also why there are soprano, alto, tenor, baritone and bass saxes, each tuned a fourth or fifth from the next one.

For voice, I don't claim to know.

What moderation approval?

I see...
But, if I try to change less tones, let's say 3 or 4, instead of 6?

And the point here is more about the use of Melodyne.
Did I do the right steps? To do the task?



I don't know either.
After click "Submit" button, I got a message saying that I had to wait the Moderation approval.
Some minutes later, my post was released.

And also:
Until some minutes ago, I wasn't allowed to edit none of my previous posts.
If I'd tried, I'd got a message saying that my account had to be analyzed first.
I think it's because I'm new here.

It's been over twenty-seven years since I was new here (and there was other forum software prior to 2000), so I don't know. Perhaps like some forums there is a five-post minimum to gain some privileges, as a tool to combat first-time spam posts? Anyone else know about this?

In Melodyne Editor, I just drag a note, or a highlighted group of notes, or a pitch in the left column that highlights all notes of that pitch, up or down to change pitch. Is there another way?

Thanks, Matt.

Let's wait a little more.
Maybe someone else knows more than us both.

If you are using Reaper you could use JSFX Spectrum Matcher.
It would analyses your current recorded vocal's timbre and then apply EQ etc. to correct the your pitch shifted one.
It'd take some experimenting and tweaking but should restore at least some of the tone you're after.
You can find the VST/Plugin in the Reaper stash and there're a couple of videos on Utub to assist.

Thank you, rayc.

I downloaded Reaper and had installed JSFX Spectrum Matcher plugin, as you had guided. I never used that program/plugin before.
For a big newbie as I am, it's a little complicated to analyze this sort of stuff, at first view.
But I will try to understand its main concepts.

If you, please, could explain more details or show a little example, it'd be great.

Thanks.

I often use ZTX for what you're trying to do. It is bundled in a large number of applications including TwistedWave, Digital Performer and ProTools. Unfortunately, you cannot just buy it standalone from Zynaptiq except as Pitchmap and that's pretty expensive.
Zynaptiq

Changing instrument tracks in Melodyne more than a 3rd is a lot of work — no way do I try that with vocal tracks. Just sounds weird.

For voice only, the AVOX plugins from Antares (Autotune) might be the best. They're available individually or as a suite. 30 day trial.
AVOX 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLh6b88OvFs

I did some more experimenting today and downloaded a bundle of isolated vocals from the internet then set each useful one, (there were quite a bit that had reverb or were done with cheap iso software so were nasty sounding), as a preset. I made sure to use sections from verse and save as verse, then chorus and so forth when there were differences in the vocal tone and other sections of song too.
Here are a couple I did today of the same song.
One has Major tom's help & the other the fellow who lost his faith.
Those were for the lead vocals - each had a verse and chorus profile
The backing vocal profiles are of a few friends of mine.
I'll be spending time to find which profile suits my voice best...that's the point.
Oh, I also, for experiment's sake, made & used a bass profile in the Lost one.
Happy songs profile assisted.

I'll try to find a way to taste that ZTX tool.



I'm realizing that.



Thanks, Mike, for all suggestions.

I loaded both versions into Melodyne and could see little differences between them.
As I could see, they sounds at the same tone.

Playing a little with programs I've never used before, I found a very obvious panel that I think gave me some results similar what I was looking for.

I mean this very evident panel:



Applying 4 pitches down and around -1500 formants, it's enough to get something near of I was expecting.

I found out that it saves me from dragging waveform up and down.

So, I think I'm satisfied with the result I got, for while.
I have to learn a lot more about this programs. Reaper too.
If is it the case, I'll come back for more questions.

Thank you all, gentlemen.

My opinion FWIW is that changing an entire vocal to that degree is going to be noticeable to most reasonably serious music folks. Were it a harmony part then not so noticeable and perhaps not at all. Caveat: I’ve created a couple of low harmonies but have never pitch shifted a lead vocal to any degree - but the ones that I’ve heard have sounded artificial. And some folks like that sound.

Bud

Yes, Bud, you're right.
Result sounds artificial, indeed.

But, for my purposes, I could reach a way to do what I was trying to do, at first.

And I'll confess what is it.

I like to hear and sing some songs together with my wife.
And some songs are higher than the comfort of my vocal range.
If I only down the pitch, timbre seems to come from another singer, from the music I'm hearing. Very weird.
Adjusting it, to higher, it goes back to what it was before.


I'm satisfied with results I could get, by now.
Nothing for business or professionals.

Merry Christmas, folk!

I doubt that a visual in Melodyne will tell you much about the change in timbre.
Remember that Melodyne & other tuners reduce the vocal to a manageable size, (some sort of trickery with how low & high it places steep filters), to do their magic...effectively they are lossy processes.
Use your ears, experiment.
You're trying to do something that's, realistically, not likely to work.
You've been given that advise and some tools, in my case freebies, to address some of the issue.
Do you really think you've the experience to know Spec match isn't going to work for you after a quick go and a VISUAL cross check in Melodyne?
Changes can be subtle or aggressive, productive or destructive. I've been playing with it for a couple of hours and know that it can improve my voice - I want it to be subtle and I want to find the right profile for the right song. I'll keep looking & trying.
I suppose I should have added the caveats YMMV/YRMV.
Mate, if you want one click solutions you're in the wrong hobby/field.

As I've already said before, I do know that it doesn't become realistic:

As I've said before, it has already worked. I'm not worry about realistic sound:

____________________

Thank you for your suggestions.

As I said since the beginning, I'm a complete newbie.
I'm not judging Spectrum Matcher.

Where did you read that I'm a experienced guy to give sentences about Spectrum Matcher?
I'm arriving right now, I'm asking for advice from you gurus.
I couldn't understand Spectrum Matcher and I've gave it up.
I found another solution that has satisfied what I was looking for.

____________________

I ask to disagree.
I could find an one click solution and I'm fully satisfied with it.
Of course, it won't prevent me to explore more and learn much more this wonderful field.

Thank you, rayc, for all your comments.
All of them helped me along this thread.

Merry Christmas.

I've used melodyne editor for quite a while. It's really good and transparent on moving pitch a step or less. Beyond two steps, you have to go to the formant tool in many cases.

It is also dependant on the pitch of the voice and whether that voice is upfront as a soloest or a background singer.

Personally, I haven't used the format tool much since I generally get really close to the note. However, on the few occasions I experimented using melodyne to create harmony tracks, using the format tool and attempting to get the vocals to sound natural was an exercise in frustration.

I'm not saying it can't be done or you can't change the vocal timbre so it sounds good or like someone else is singing, but it's going to take time to get it right and once again, the less you move the note from it's original pitch, the easier it's going to be to get it sounding right.

That's been my experience.

All you need to know about Melodyne right there...... Track it the best possible on the original recording....

Absolutely. These kind of tools work much better when they don't have to work as hard.

That is true for any pitch shifting software.

This is a fact, however, when you move more than just a couple of half steps in pitch, the timbre of the note sound changes, especially with complex sounds like human voice. You quickly get something that doesn't sound even close to the tone of the original note as sung. They do have a formant tool in Melodyne that supposedly lets you dial it back in but I've never been satisfied with the results when I attempt to move a vocal note too far from the original pitch.

You can however, use that nicely to create harmony that's in the background, but when it comes to the lead vocal.... that's a different thing totally.