BIAB Support For Diminished Triads

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Please, please can we have support for Diminished Triads!

Background
==========

This is, what has become, my yearly plead for pgmusic to support diminished triads in BIAB!

I would like to see support for Diminished Triads 1-b3-b5 and not just for Diminished 7ths or Half Diminished (m7b5) Chords.

Currently Diminished is interpreted as Diminished 7th.

BIAB Supports these triads:

Major Triad: 1-3-5 : e.g. C
Minor Triad: 1-b3-5 : e.g. Cm
Augmented Triad: 1-3-#5 : e.g. Caug

And these two variations:

Suspended Triad: 1-4-5 : e.g. Csus
Major Triad with lowered 5th: 1-3-b5 : e.g. C5b

Rational:
The Diminished Triad is the basis for the Diminished 7th and The Half-Diminished (m7b5) and is often used in pop piano charts where basic triads are the staple chords.

Current Work around:
Use either dim (which is dim7th) or m7b5 depending on chords function in chart and then if necessary edit the exported midi file to remove the 7th.

Solution
=======

IMO, The simplest solution to support Diminished Triads would be along
the lines of:

1. In preferences have a check box which says "Interpret Dim as Dim7"
This box would be checked defaulted and ensure complete backward
compatibility.

2. Unchecking the box would mean that all Dim chords are interpreted
as 1-b3-b5

3. Change existing Diminished (dim) code to be used when Diminished
7th (dim7) is typed.

I wish to add my support for Alisdair's request for support of diminished triads separate from fully diminished 7th chords and half-diminished 7th chords.

Alisdair's suggestion of a user-selectable option to make the "dim" suffix be a diminished triad and that "dim7" would be necessary for a full diminshed 7th and the current "m7b5" would still be necessary for the half-diminshed 7th.

OR

leave dim as it is (full diminished 7th chord) in order to maintain perfect backward compatibility with already existing files, but add the following chord suffix: dimt (t for triad) and interpret it as Root, b3, b5 (C Eb Gb, for example).

OR

simply change the behavior of the program so that "dim" implies diminshed triad, "dim7" is necessary for full-diminshed-7th and the current "m7b5" still be the norm for half-diminshed-7ths.

I realize that with the vast number of BIAB files already in existence, many of which want the full diminished 7th where the chord suffix dim is used, any change in the handling of diminished chords will create havoc for some. But in my opinion adding this capability will enhance the program and we should all be able to deal with it.

And the use of the shortcuts file can allow people to adjust things to their own way of working, once the diminshed triad is functional in the program.

It baffles me that something so basic to how Western harmony is organized, labeled, and presented in almost any theory book you care to llook at, can be overlooked in BIAB. Before you even come to considering 7th chords as a student, you encounter the deminished triad.
So yes, please add this capability to the program!
It's fundamental!

I'd like to see BIAB support Diminished Triads too

Yes, this is a glaring omission. Please correct. BTW, there is yet another triad, the suspended 2nd; 1-2-5. I think this one is supported.

Add my support for Diminished Triads.

Yes, I agree. Diminished Triads should be supported properly.

Let me add my support. I have on occasion wished for a diminished triad option as opposed to a diminished seventh chord.

Good idea. Diminished triads in BB.

Vote for this...

Dragan

You can count me in ...

And me too...

Alan

Specifying triads more fully and accurately in contrast to 4 or more note chords would be great!

I'm thinking of how that would work so well in combination with the also much wished for ability to use more than 4 chords per bar.

Even more specifically for "fast" walk down and walk ups. ( For a guitarist with less than olympic level gymnastic fingers -like me- being able to specify switching using the triad as opposed to 4 note chords or barre chords could be helpful )

Please, please can we have support for Diminished Triads!

I'm with Alisdair!

Thanks,

Songhammer
Phoenix, AZ

Yes, support for dim triads would be good. Others on this thread have suggested ways to implement.

Also, support for "add" chords, such as add9 or add13.

Thanks for the consideration.

I'm with Alisdair too. Diminished triads have been lacking way too long. Please make it happen in the next version of BIAB

Philip van Galen

Suggest we have Diminished Triads, Please.

I also would like to see support for Diminished triads.

Also, I would like to see please, for more realistic dynamics, the ability to automate level changes for the `band'.

Ron Becker

I wish to add my support for Alisdair's request for support of diminished triads separate from fully diminished 7th chords and half-diminished 7th chords.
Victor

Perhaps 2008/9 will see PGmusic's BIAB support of diminished triads?

So I'm highlighting my now yearly plead on PGmusic's BIAB wishlist.

I agree. We need the choice...

The capability is already there for diminished triads. I've experimented with "edit - jazz down" and "edit - jazz up" and found that the dim triads will play under jazz down. I used the jazz modern trio style and you can hear, particularly in the bass line, that in the jazz down mode the dim 7th is not played. Switch to jazz up and the dim 7th is played. Later, Ray

Don't know what to say except that it works for me. Being a jazz pianist however, I rarely play a straight dim chord, not without some alterations. Later, Ray

I don't understand the problem. I use diminished chords all the time, and they work just fine. Just type in dim or o as shorthand.

Mike
When you type in dim or o as shorthand, you get Dim7th 1-b3-b5-bb7 chords not Dim Triads 1-b3-b5.

What we're asking for is support for diminished triads.

BIAB supports all the other triads apart from diminished.

Pop, gospel and classical music often use the basic diminished triad without the 7th.

This might not be important to you if you only play jazz as jazz generally extends the chords to include the 7ths, 9th etc.

Nice to have more choices !

PhL

Another vote for the diminished triad here.

Yes please. I'd like to see a diminished triad too. It's chord II in minor keys and equally important as chord II in major keys.

Quote:

Yes, this is a glaring omission. Please correct. BTW, there is yet another triad, the suspended 2nd; 1-2-5. I think this one is supported.

The suspended 2nd 'triad' of which you wrote is actually a major triad with an added 9th - it is entered normally as "C2", "D2", etc., and includes the maor third. In the best of nomenclature it is abbreviated C(9), D(9), etc., respectively.

Quote:

Yes, support for dim triads would be good. Others on this thread have suggested ways to implement.

Also, support for "add" chords, such as add9 or add13.

Thanks for the consideration.

There is support for C(9) and C(13) already.

Quote:

The suspended 2nd 'triad' of which you wrote is actually a major triad with an added 9th - it is entered normally as "C2", "D2", etc., and includes the maor third. In the best of nomenclature it is abbreviated C(9), D(9), etc., respectively.

The 9 should also include the dominant 7th.

The 2 chord should not.

Whether of not you get a third with the 2 chord is a function of the chosen Style because of the patterns and mapping inside the style file.

--Mac

Quote:

Quote:

The suspended 2nd 'triad' of which you wrote is actually a major triad with an added 9th - it is entered normally as "C2", "D2", etc., and includes the maor third. In the best of nomenclature it is abbreviated C(9), D(9), etc., respectively.

The 9 should also include the dominant 7th.

The 2 chord should not.

Whether of not you get a third with the 2 chord is a function of the chosen Style because of the patterns and mapping inside the style file.

--Mac

Not if it is an added 9th to the triad.

Then it should be notated as "Cadd9" not "C9".

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t a C2 chord consist of the notes C-E-G-D in any order (or inversion), i.e. C-D-E-G, E-D-G-C, etc?

Doesn’t a Csus2 chord consist of the notes C-D-G in any order?

Doesn’t a C9 chord consist of the notes C-E-G-Bb-D in any order?

Isn’t a Cadd9 the same as a C2?

Isn’t a Csus9 the same as a Csus2?

Quote:

Then it should be notated as "Cadd9" not "C9".

The parentheses indicates it is added, though this usage is not supported by Brandt and Roehmer.

Quote:

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t a C2 chord consist of the notes C-E-G-D in any order (or inversion), i.e. C-D-E-G, E-D-G-C, etc?

Doesn’t a Csus2 chord consist of the notes C-D-G in any order?

Doesn’t a C9 chord consist of the notes C-E-G-Bb-D in any order?

Isn’t a Cadd9 the same as a C2?

Isn’t a Csus9 the same as a Csus2?

C2 in its simplest form relates "C and D" only, as an interval, which is still a chord. C2 as a triad with the "2" substituting for the third is the same as Gsus4, so in this regard "C2" is unnecessary. C2 as a triad with the third is the same as a C triad with an added 9th, C(9). Tertian harmony shows stacked thirds, used extensively for many hundreds of years, as a basis for chord building. The most popular form of chord suffixes for many years has included an array of inconsistencies that serve more to perplex than to concisely notate up to and including the 13th. Use of parentheses only for added notes, the accidentals only for roots, and the use of only "+" and "-" for alterations greatly provides a much clearer picture of the exactness with which the most complex chords can be abbreviated. The order of the notes may vary but are taught for clarity in the logical series "1,3,5,7,9,11,13". You are correct in the spelling of the C9, more specifically, the C dominant 9th chord. The use of "sus" is only necessary for the "sus4" chords, and thus, can be abbreviated to "4". So a "Csus9" could more easily be written and read with an indicated "C" and a "9" placed over a "4", both numbers being positioned equally above and below the mid axis of the root. The spelling is C,F,G,Bb,D.

The problem here, I think, is that there is really no one standard for fake chord notation.

As testified by many differing offerings from the various publishers of sheet musics etc.

I like to go with something my old teacher used to preach: "Try to make it an easy read and the musicians will love your arrangements." -- Sometimes that may mean adopting geographic conventions, too. For example, "West Coast" notation typically does things a bit differently from East Coast here in the states. Or the use of the Pipe | chord to depict stacked triads is a convention for some, but I've met others who simply just stared at the page as if it was in a foreign language.

As far as PGMusic products go, I would also like to see the programs able to handle different fake chord notations reliably and as all-inclusive as possible.

I'd also like to be able to add "custom" inputs to the chordlist, that may be the best answer for all concerned.

--Mac

--Mac

Diminished triads are common in certain styles, and need to be supported. BIAB is not a complete program without them.

This thread should not fall into oblivion. There are a few issues that are pretty important to the community that did not receive appropriate attention by the program designers to date. Diminished triads sure are essential, as is notation support for compound time signatures.

Agreed... There's a workaround solution, involving copying a style, muting or reimporting all the macro based patterns then dropping the 7th from all the patterns using the velocity command, ...

....but who on earth wants to do all that, and change styles at the appropriate point in a song just to acommodate one chord that ought to be supported anyway?
You shouldn't need to.

Regards

Alan

I have a feeling that the same applies to the pgmusic staff as well.

Going back thru all of those styles, finding the diminished stuff, changing it, of course they would have to then create a new stylename for each one, for just overwriting the existing would bring complaints from those using them as-is and happy with that result, this is a major situation because it has compounded over years' time.

Maybe development can come up with another way to fix the problem, a piece of "global" code and yet another Preference toggle. That sure would save the manhours.

--Mac

Mac

Well if the velocity command can be targeted globally at a single midi note (which it is) then another similarly targeted command mapping one note to another or taking it out of the equation completely is surely possible.

These functions aren't exactly new in midi terms. Cakewalk sonar has had user-defined re- mapping of notes from one scale to another for years, and what we're talking about (a sort of search and replace or search and destroy!) isn't really any different.

Regards

Alan

Possible vs Probable, Alan.

Even automated, there would still be that need to have the old styles do what they did and thus renaming all the new ones.

Perhaps there could be a global routine applied? That would seem to have the most merit and get to the finish line, eh?

--Mac

A thought just occurred. I wonder if any of the pianists on the Real Tracks differentiated between dim and dim7? I suppose it wouldn't make a difference because the pgshortc.txt file translates dim to dim7, so internally they might be programmed to be the same, even in Real Tracks. But maybe not. Just a thought.