If a song has a mix of 3/4 and 4/4 time signatures, and needs to start in 3/4, it needs to use a 4/4 style and use F5 to set the first bar to 3/4. However, this means that the count-in will be in 4/4 when the song then actually starts in 3/4.

It seems to me that it would be a whole lot more practical if Band In A Box just produced the count-in using the same time-signature as the first bar of the song. If the first bar plays in 3/4, the count in should automatically be in 3/4. This would be a great improvement.

Hope others approve.

Regards
Trevor

+1

++1

I remember the first time, after learning that I must use a 4/4 style if I wanted to have both 4/4 and 3/4, setting the first bar to 3/4 and getting a 4/4 count-in. Whoa.

Yes, totally agree Matt. Expecting a 3/4 count-in, but getting a 4 beat count-in and then immediately launching into a 3/4 song is very distracting. I got used to it but nevertheless there has to be a much nicer way.

Frankly, I don't think it would be incredibly difficult for the program to determine the time signature at the first bar and apply a count-in to suit. (2013.5 !!??)

+1

+1

Thinking further upon this, I can make a case for BIAB looking at the first several bars to determine the count-off, if the number of beats per bar varies and that variation repeats. And you should be able to override the program's choice.

For Take Five, where you might write repeating measures of 3 beats then 2 beats, it would be nice to get a count-in of 3, 2.

For another example, let's say we are writing out Blue Rondo a la Turk as measures with beats as follows: 2, 2, 2, 3. You might want to reproduce all four measures as the count-in. Or, perhaps you would be comfortable with a 4/4 count-in because of the transition from the bridge.

Thanks Matt. Of course you are exactly correct, but I hope these additional technicalities don't get PG to put this in the too hard basket. I understand that the program works with limitations for songs containing bars with different time signatures, slicing off beats to get the correct value.

However, for these occassions, maybe a much easier way is to just provide an override option checkbox in the Song Settings dialog:



Any takers?

+1 anyone????

A BIG +1

If I could expand on it why not make any number of beats available for a count-in? This would satisfy any time signature from 2/4 to 12/8 including 5/4 and such. This goes along with what Matt had said earlier.

Yes, +1 for override. I did mention that above.

Thanks Guys for your endorsement. Yes, the mock-up is only a concept, and could definitely be improved on.

The key point is that the count-in could be tailored to suit each specific song, rather than relying on Global Settings. As mentioned, this would be great for songs in different time signatures (5/4 etc)

It might be something like:

Count-In based on actual time-signature of first bar

BUMP !!!!
There has been absolute forum members agreement, not one objection, but nothing happened in about 3 years.

This is a really important issue. If the song starts in 3/4, please just provide a 3/4 count in. Just like every musician in the real world does.

(Instead of looking at the time-signature of the song to decide the count-in, just look at the time-signature of the first bar. C'mon team, not hard, surely?)

Please support this PGM. This is a Wishlist for Product Improvements, not a lucky-dip wishing well. There is a difference. Please support this pragmatic request.

+1 Agree for the second time. This needs to be done.

Well, you could've fooled me!

I wish Peter said 'Thanks' or 'Good Idea' or at least something to this one....

+1 from me Trev

Thanks Mike

Yours, and others ongoing support for this fundamentally very reasonable request is appreciated <hint>

+1 Count me in!

BIG +1 !!!!

This seems like such an obvious and relatively easy one to tackle!

Sure, I'll +1 this again.

I like the suggestions by VideoTrack for the additions to the Count-in dialog. And I agree, I don't want to make it so complicated that this becomes hard for PG Music to implement. Having said that, I think it needs to offer something like these checkbox options:

__ Count-in will be played
__ Specify numbers of measures for count-in (pulldown)
__ First bar has emphasis on every second beat only (multiple bars only)
__ Count-in uses beat pattern in this number of measures (pulldown)
__ Play count-in when spacebar pressed in measure one

Something along these lines, not that I've provided a complete list. Note: the forum software doesn't seem to allow me to indent. The second checkbox would be indented and grayed out if the first is unchecked etc.

))))) BIG +1 !!!! This seems like such an obvious and relatively easy one to tackle!

Yes, I thought it would be relatively straightforward, but apparently it must have them stumped.

Sigh. Well, we can only wish.

I've been a musician for a very, very long time, but I still can't get used to hearing a 4 beat count-in for a song that starts as a Jazz Waltz. Seems odd to still be doing this in 2016, doesn't it?

+1, of course

EDIT >> Please disregard this post. I tested the wrong thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I just tested this with 2 different Waltzes in BIAB 2016 (build 127) and it appears to be fixed. Proper 3/4 count-in.

Trevor, can you confirm that this is still broken in the Windows version, or has it been fixed?

Hi Zedd
Thanks for the request
The problem is that if a song has a mixture of 4/4 and 3/4 time signatures and starts in 3/4, a style with a 4/4 time signature must be chosen.

The first bar is set to play 3 beats. But the count in is in 4/4.

You can download this sample SGU I just created that demonstrates the problem.

The Count-in that is set from Preferences is Global, not local to a song.

Try this on your system. Download the song and play it. It starts with the first 4 bars as a 3/4 and on the second 4 bars it changes to 4/4. Listen to the count-in, then start playing. Whoa!

BiaB checks the style to determine the count-in to use. All BiaB has to do is check how many beats are in the first bar, and use that as the count-in. Easy? Well, that's what I thought. Apparently this must be quite difficult. 3+ years, stacks of support, not one disapproval, and we're still waiting...

I'm so sorry to have troubled you with this. I wanted to +1 this thread, but thought I ought to try it out first to hear what's going on... but I forgot about testing something that had both 3/4 and 4/4 (which was the whole point).

Indeed it's not working, and could easily throw you off if recording or playing along. I wonder why this hasn't been addressed after all this time? It seems as though it should be such a simple thing to remedy.

+1 for fixing this.

Apologies again for my oversight. I read all the posts in this thread, and then proceeded to test the wrong thing like a nitwit.

Hey Zedd, no need to apologize at all.

Your post gave me a chance to create a sample of the issue that PG Music staff can now listen to and hear for themselves how problematic it is <hint>.

I'm still leaning to the idea also of making the count-in selectable on a song by song basis, rather than global (it's currently either Off always or On always). Some songs don't need a count-in.
Something like this would resolve:

That is a very sensible solution Trevor. That ought to be fairly easy to implement, and seems like an essential addition.

Thanks to you for also lending your support Zedd. Yes, this can't be an impossible challenge, and it is only asking for what a real musician would expect in "real-world" conditions.

So, I'm going out on a limb here. Someone has to. Let's imagine you were in a band, and the band leader supplied a 4 beat count-in but expected you all to start playing 3 beats in the bar. No? I guess you can't imagine that. I certainly can't.

What would someone from PG Music play if they were in that band?

I'm going to keep pushing this, because what happens currently is just fundamentally wrong. This is not about improvement. It is about program "problem resolution" (note: I restrained myself from saying the "B" word, even if that's what it is.)

Imagine if Roland or Yamaha did this with their Arranger Keyboards. Imagine if a 3/4 song on their system started with a 4/4 count-in. No? You can't imagine that? Well, neither can I. If Roland or Yamaha did that you'd probably take it straight back to the shop. But that's exactly what BiaB currently delivers. Is that really musically OK? Think about it.

I have only ever tried to provide support, suggestions for improvement, and positive ideas to PG and his staff, and to offer ideas to better the product. My suggestions are supported not by 'just talk' but by demonstrated "real world examples". I can only hope that someone from PGM is listening. This is too important an issue to walk away from.

If you agree with rectification of product issues, then don't be afraid to lend your support, OK?

We all will benefit (PGM too...).

Trevor

+1000 again.

Fixing obvious problems like this (please note that I also haven't pronounced the forbidden "B" word, in order to avoid offending a couple of pgm fanboys here) should be the first priority for PG Music.

Good points.

I do it the other way. If the song starts in 3/4, I use a 3/4 style, then I select the measure where 4/4 starts and highlight the range of bars and use the set time signature for a range of measures. Then, I chose 4/4 and I'm good to go. I did this with a song where it had one bar in 2/4 and it worked. It took a little effort to for BIAB to figure out to make that one measure 2/4 but it worked.

Re:

So I interpret that you are saying that by choosing 4/4 you make a 3/4 style play 4 beats to the bar?

How do you do that? What steps do you use? In my version of BiaB (2016), if you tell a 3/4 style to play 4 beats it plays 3 beats. You can only lose one, not add one.

OK, reading and analyzing further, I'm presuming that you use 2 bars of 2/4 to make something that 'sounds' like one bar of 4/4. If that's the case, then how does the score look? It won't read correctly like one bar of 4/4.

And in any case, I think you've respectfully missed the complete point of these posts. To recap, change your song that has the 3/4 style to start (the first bar) with 2 beats (or 4 beats), then listen to the count-in. I suspect that you'll get 3 beats.

BiaB always plays the count-in based on the selected style, not the number of beats in the first bar. It's a long-term major design issue. I'm really hopeful that it's being resolved. (3,100+ views to date...)

Bump for 2017...

+1 again.

Still on the "get around to it" and "to do" list for 2017.

+1

This overdue request needs resurrecting, just in case the 2018 team aren't sure what needs to be included

+1

Just making sure the great development team see how many views and how much support there has been for this missing feature

+1

+1 again.

Oh man, I'm getting writer's cramp on this one. I just went back to review the whole thread, and while it seems like a little thing, I've given it perhaps more of my +1 votes than to any other request.

I hope it isn't hard to implement. My suggestions early on about some of the subtleties that would help shouldn't stop the basic 4/4 - 3/4 count-in issue. Let's start there.

+1 on the count being based on bar 1.

not trying to hijack, but
i can't help but think that this is a child-problem of the parental problem of PG's implementation of meter specification in biab.

seems the ability to specify the actual meter of the song other than 4/4 (3/4,5/4, 11/8, etc) would provide this desired feature and a host of other ones also.



but i could be wrong.

We have asked for this, an expansion of chord that can be entered in a measure, and cut time for years. It should have been done by now.

Maybe there's still time for 2018?

A 4+ YEAR WAIT SO FAR...

To have a very major program bug resolved.

Boy, I sure hope it's delivered in the next version.

I also want to have 6/8 as an actual time signature and cut time. I'm want to make sure that the chord align with the song I'm playing.

I didn't see this very missing feature in the latest version, but hopefully the team could finally include it in one of the 2018 patches.

I very much hope that we wouldn't have to wait another year to have this long standing serious problem resolved. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, it's not a missing feature, it's a major design fault in the program. Nothing less.

+1. Since the 2018 edition notation supports alternate time signatures it would be nice if the automatic count-in matched the first time signature used in a song project.

+1 again. I think that fixing program faults like this one, which has been reported for years, should be top priority for the development team.

A request to fix a genuine and very real operational bug in the program that frankly should still not be there.

This particular bug fix request is only 5 years old now. The fault is not imaginary. This can't really be impossible to fix. Action available? 2019? Can we possibly hope?

I am not agitating. Many feel strongly about this and don't want to and should not be let down for another year.

+1 for sure!

The bearing in my mouse wheel just seized up scrolling all the way from the original 2013 post to the latest 2018 post !

In the pic it's using a 4/4 style with the first 4 bars set to 3 beats per bar but the count-in bars are on 4 beats per bar.
Maybe as it's using that 4/4 style rather than starting with a 3/4 style it needs the 4/4 count-in bars ??
The only work around I can see is mute the count-in in prefs> count-in import a 3/4 count-in wav clip @ beat 3.

if bar1_beats == 3 then mute_count = 1 and play_count34_clip = 1
else mute_count = 0 end

3-4 count-in for 2 bars 4-4 120bpm.WAV

1. Options > Preferences > Count-in/Met > Uncheck Play Lead In & Audible Lead In
2. File > Import > Import Audio > Ok > Yes stereo
3. Audio > Set Audio Master (Base) Tempo.. > 120 (this will adjust count-in to your current bpm).

Still laughing, at least you brought some humor to this tragic situation.



If we do that then not a single song will have a count in. The Count-in is a global setting.
That's my other aging but very genuine Wish List item

This way you manually load the count wav clip you want, but if I can do it manually there's no reason why BB can't do that automatically with some if thens, I can also create it in the piano roll.
So there must be an easy fix for this ???

Unfortunately, another basic feature still not implemented in 2019 (yet?).

It's hard to image a system where the song starts in 3/4 and the user receives a 4/4 count-in.

+1

+1, another obvious bug reported for years, still waiting to be fixed.

Nobody here, as user, still understand why it is so difficult to implement !

Disappointement is growing...

+1

Bump

+1, since I haven't done this in a while. This is a very sensible request, and one that I think would be essential to those using BIAB to perform live.

I think it's possibly time for another Bump to this long outstanding issue.
Bump!

I completely agree.

Bump.

If this issue were known to potential purchasers I think anyone likely to work in 3/4 would pass on by.
For all the good the prog does this little aspect is symptomatic of companies that may put "moving forward" ahead of dealing with their past.
I wouldn't use the program to back a live 3/4 song - there'd be too many stumbles unless I'd deliberately prepared a long intro and didn't play until that was almost over.

This is another request that has been around since 2013 (and by others before me)

Hopefully we will see this issue finally resolved in 2020. It's not too late yet. Hope others also support this.

49 problems solved (+ Count-In based on actual time-signature of first bar) with Band-in-a-Box 2020

I'm really, really, really hopeful.
(Actually, after all these years, really really, really, really hopeful)
Please remove this significant bug and deliver for 2020
(I dislike using the 'b' word, but that's what this is - by any other name - if the song starts in 3/4, the count-in should be in 3/4)

What about 6/8

Masi

Baby steps?

One of my main uses for BIAB is lead sheet printing. PLEASE FIX THIS !!!

Yes. Hopefully this is at the very top of the shortlist for resolution by now.

As noted, this shortcoming continues to cause significant issues to many users.

(Also, make the count-in setting local to each song, not global. Not all songs need a count-in).

Thanks.

Yes - +1
I end up modifying the count-in in DAW.
Ian

Hardly ideal. Having to go to a separate DAW, just to get a basic count-in sorted, no?

AGAIN A BIG +1

With all the good things happening lately, I think it's time to revisit this important one.
Another +1
Any other takers?

If you have a 2 bar count off in BB and it's using bars as "cells" and joining them to emulate time signatures greater than 4/4 how would you do that with the 2 4/4 bars ? would you have to do it in midi and don't write it to the track ?

Hi Pipeline, I'm not sure if I follow, but I am trying. The count off (count-in) is not part of the bars of the song, but precedes the first bar. I think you are indicating that if the song is in a time-signature something like 5/4, it uses two bars to make up the 5 beats. Yes? The way that's achieved is a workaround, agreed.

However, separate to those workarounds, if the song starts in 5/4 time, the count-in should reflect that. Otherwise, why even have a count in at all? The absolute best thing that a wrong count-in can do is confuse the performers. And that's its best achievement. Why do a 4 beat count-in for a song that starts in 3? Huh? What?

Somewhere down the track it's gonna need real time signatures.
But for now they should be able to use midi without playing the 2 bars -1 and 0 but playing a midi count-in then start play at bar 1.
You just won't have any pickup notes/lead ins.
I'll look at it more tomorrow.
Look at Reaper you can set it to count-in any time signature at any bar:

Hopefully that's being acknowledged by those who can deliver the goods.

Reaper is certainly well advanced. I'd just settle for BiaB to deliver a count-in that matches the time-signature of the first bar. Not a big ask, I would've thought.

+1

I must be well into double digits by now for this request.

I could make a simple GUI with Tempo, Time Signature and number of count-in bars and a start button or shortcut key to start the count-in then it sends "spacebar" to the Biab window.
It could read the current tempo from Biab.
It I could do that in a few minutes someone should be able to add that into Biab ?

Well, that's what I thought too... but apparently not so, not yet anyway, but I won't give up trying.

I included the AHK script as well as compiled exe 32 & 64.
If you run Biab as admin do the same with the exe,
if you are running the script go to AutoHotKey install folder and set AutoHotKey.exe to run as admin.

Disable count-in see pic
type tempo in then click Set Tempo
type time signature the click Set Time Signature
This works with the Windows audio device
so if you have set your audio device to be "Always On" it won't work so un-check that in Audio Settings.
Download Biab Count-In-AHK.zip.mp4
remove .mp4 from file name.
EDIT: Updated for /8

Download Biab Count-In-AHK.zip.mp4
remove .mp4 from file name.
EDIT: Updated for /8

Views 31297
They could sell some ad space in this forum to pay for the fix.

This is very neat Pipeline, many thanks. Yes, it is a workaround that provides a solution and your efforts are greatly appreciated. Perhaps you could offer it to PG Music.

PG Music?

+1

39379 views and still waiting...

Here's an updated tool to include Loop Start
Remove .mp4 and unzip
Download > Biab Count-In with Loop Start.zip.mp4

Watch: BB-AHK-Count-In & Start Loop.mp4

If you are running Biab As Administrator:
To run script only .ahk install https://www.autohotkey.com/ and set AutoHotKey.exe to Run As Administrator
To run .exe set to Run As Administrator

This uses the system audio for the count-in beeps so if Biab is set to use the same Audio Device, un-check the Always On in Device Driver.

This item has been in the Wishlist since 2013. I'm just giving it another little 'bump'.
Anyone else care to?

Sure.

+1

Another +1.

Another +1

See my post "4 beats bar in a waltz song" on April 02, 2022 and the responses of Matt

This thread started in 2013 so everyone don't hold your breath until this happens.

Like I said back then have BiaB accurately do all time signatures from the count-in to the export of a song.

+1

Its an obvious request.

Anything less makes playing along/recording along far more difficult than it need be.
Both thumbs up, double plus 1 etc.

Thanks for more votes of support.

This need has been around long before my first post here in 2013, and many other new functions that haven't been requested have been introduced since then. It's reasonable to expect, despite the potential difficulties, that it would be delivered by now. C'mon PG Music, "get-er-done"!

Thanks.

If the issue is fitting a click to the 2 bar count-in roll, why can't it just play the click then start from bar 1 or any custom bar number without playing -1 & 0 ?
The same as the script I made to do this.
The only issue I can see is it won't play any pickup notes in bar 0

PL, Fantastic. You often provide sensational workarounds, and these are greatly appreciated. No doubt there is a big effort to develop these.

But, with respect, we're looking for this feature to be an integrated part of the program. I think you will agree that this would be the most appropriate delivery mechanism.

I suspect that the count-in is perhaps hard-coded to the song's time-signature, but it should be able to be 'modified' to suit the correct timing of that critical first bar. That's the reality.

Can you imagine a band leader who delivers a 4/4 count-in to the band members who then must start playing in 3/4? No, neither can I, but that's what BiaB does in these circumstances.

Sorry I have to say this, but it's way past time for this issue to be resolved. It may be difficult, but it's not impossible.

+1

I totally agree with that. It's really rather fundamental.

I rather suspect there's some nasty under the surface that makes it very difficult ... perhaps backward compatibility issues?

I do wonder if it's tied in with the rather limited handling generally of time signatures. I appreciate that there are some weird ones around(*), but 5/4 and 12/8 are pretty common and 7/8 is not exactly rare.

(*)My wife wanted to sing with the band and wanted "Light Flight" as done by Pentangle. No worries ... the verses are in 5/4+5/4+2/4 and the chorus in 6/4.

Even Pentangle admitted they'd never worked out how to count it in properly :-)

What I'm saying is there is no reason I can see that the method I describe can't be integrated into Biab now, like today, if I had the source code I would code it now and upload it.
Whatever the first time signature is set to it will play 2 bars of that then start play at bar 1 or a custom start point.
Maybe it's because they spend 6 months re-programming Mac that there is not the time left to fit these things in, I don't know......

Watch https://www.dropbox.com/s/nf3htbh420pkbx6/Reaper-Count-In.mp4?dl=0

Views 71598

Hopefully there is still interest from the BiaB fraternity. Feel free to comment.

+1 for a count-in that matches the time signature of the first bar in a song.

Again another big +1

83444 views and still waiting...

I suppose if it's using a 4/4 style that 4/4 Drum will have a 4/4 count-in recorded in it, it would have to load a count-in from a 3/4 recorded drum RealDrum and set the 2 count-in bars to 3/4 but then if you have to use a 4/4 style when you have 3/4 changes then there must be a big issue stopping this if it hasn't been done by now ?


maybe when this is overhauled and updated other issue will be then doable ?

1+

...Deb

I see I was the first +1 ten years ago, but I'm changing my mind. This feature as it is now makes counting in a song more adventurous to follow, and who wouldn't want that? Are all 88,000+ of you not up to the challenge? No? You would like this fixed?

Well, this made me smile (if I didn't laugh I'd cry). I also witnessed the use of the word 'Whoa' from this thread. Very appropriate.

Any more takers? (This is a really important bug that needs resolving)

Gimme a Whoa:

"WHOA"

Gimme a Fix:

"FIX"

What's that spell?

"WHOAFIX"

----------

Huh?

Yeah, OK.

Yes, it's sort of like begging:

WHOcAnFIX ?

Not bad!

Another nudge. PG Music agree it's a good idea.

World peace is a good idea.

07/05/2013 10:16 PM

07/07/2016 01:13 PM
07/28/2023 05:40 PM 89410 views


There are lots of "good ideas" here but I thought you had to get 100,000 views, 10 pages and 10 years first ?
Is this another issue where you are stuck:

Notes: For time signature higher than 4/4, each bar is spread out over 2 or more bars (e.g. 5/4 will be written as 3/4+2/4).
So would you need 4 pre roll bars to get a 5/4 count-in to fit ?
The only way I can see is have it work like the AutoHotkey script play the count-in with a metronome without playing bars -1 and 0 then start play at bar 1 OR any chosen bar to start the count-off as Reaper can do.
Unless you add RealTimeSignatures so then the count-in bars will be in the real time signature and can then play the correct 2 bar count-in.

Hey can I do a + 1 Too?!?!?! I wanna say Whoa like Matt did!

(Obvious attempt to boost post count)

Hey maybe by the time this gets fixed Audio track will be call four dimensional-Ai-track, Musocity will be Nursinghomecity, Rustyspoon will get new silverware, and well Matt will still be Matt

Well, in a nutshell, the program creator favored the idea many years ago, and years later still states it's a good idea. But this serious deficiency still exists in 2013.

This issue does need serious attention.

The count-in to a song is there for very good musical reasons. At the very least it tells the performers
a:) when to start,
b:) the song tempo, and
c:) the time signature.

Musicians need an accurate count-in. Simple. Receiving a 4/4 count-in for the start of a 3/4 song is way beyond crazy. It's an extremely serious program deficiency.

I don’t think I’ve ever posted “Whoa” for any other topic about BIAB. A mismatched count-in is that disconcerting. Thanks Rob; on this one, I’m not changing.

The way it works is a workaround that was added after the fact because it wasn't done right in the first place then everything else was built around the way it works. You see what happens when you mention time signatures, every time I mention real time signatures there was a big fight or posts got deleted.
I think users were too accepting of what was given for too long without speaking up enough about things. I know I go on a lot and some users don't like it but there needs to be more users speaking up (a lot) to get it out of the past, I shouldn't be the only one posting lots of stuff
I love PG but you need to be honest and hold PG to a higher standard.

See it's set to 5/4 and you get 5/4 in the count-in bars -1..... 0....., it's not limited to 4 beats max:

When I came here first back in 2009 after purchasing Biab from finding with a google search, I new nothing about making music or DAWs. I used to fix amps for musos and they had issues with their bands breaking up with bass players running off with drummers wives and all the other dramas that go on with bands and they asked me to look for a way to make their own music, and then building websites that I knew nothing about not to mention scripting or ripping karaoke CD's and laser disc to mp3+g.
I had to learn all this stuff I had not been at it for 20 years like some users here.
I have stayed here because the end result of the software is great but so much frustration getting. It's been a really long haul all those years.
Would a total crossplatform re-write way back when I suggested been better ? YES.
I think we need to look to the BBPlugin to take it into the future being crossplatform. I saw that in a vision and the BBPlugin Standalone becoming the new Biab, easy learning, frustration free design with no 90's limitations of the old Biab.