++ Another thread ++ started a nice discussion about how Band-in-a-Box's graphical interface needs improvement. I'm starting this thread so users and prospective customers can provide PG Music with specific suggestions for improvement. I've copied an edited version of Peter Gannon's thoughts below:
"Here's a screenshot of Band-in-a-Box 2015 http://static.emediamusic.com/product_assets/bb/2014-bandboxwin.jpg And, no, that doesn't look like a cartoon to me. I happen to like that there is text present on most of the buttons and elements in BiaB, unlike the DAW program screen that has just icons with no text for many items.
Now don't get me wrong here- I am all for improving lots of aspects of BiaB GUI, and there's lots to be done there! But only in a way that makes it easier and more intuitive to use. So I'm not about to get rid of text on the buttons for example."
User jford posted some thoughts many users agreed with:
My personal opinion is that I like the retro "look" of BIAB. I don't know that I want BIAB to start looking like every other music app out there and become just a face in the crowd, like so many other music applications today. "It's familiar" (a great Andy Griffith line from "No Time For Sergeants").
That being said, there are a few (I would imagine) fairly simple things that could be done to modernize the user experience. Peter has often said to provide specifics for changes, so here goes.
The main screen has a lot of white, errr, grey space on it. The little chord entry box has been discussed at length recently, but just look at all the unused space surrounding the little box. The white space areas should be able to be used more efficiently, which is where some of the below suggestions come into play.
I think what would go a long way towards modernizing the interface would be to make all the window elements floatable (where you can move it around on the screen and resize it), dockable (you can lock it into place it on the screen at the top-bottom-left-right), visible/invisible (if you don’t want to see it on the screen, then poof, it’s gone, easily brought back), and scalable (which is different resizable – for example the static mixer window elements are of fixed size, which is why there isn’t room to see the Thru or Audio tracks. Resizable usually makes things disappear; scalable changes the size of the fonts and graphics to continue to display the entire element).
Toolbars should be fully customizable – dockable or floating. You should be able to determine whether the buttons have text on them, or are large or small buttons. You should be able to add/remove any buttons, as well as re-order the buttons to suit your own workflow.
While colors currently are user customizable, this should be made as easy as possible, with clear descriptions of what each screen element represents.
The request for improving chord entry in the chord grid has already been made and discussed at length, so I won’t go into here (other than something should be done to improve it).
Right now, for example, you can bring up the floatable mixer, but the static mixer stays on the screen. And they don’t look the same or have the same functionality. And the reason you made it floatable was to reclaim screen space, but that doesn’t happen. There should be ONE mixer window with all the functionality that could either be docked to one of the sides of the screen (PGMusic could figure out how that would work and what would go where when there are multiple elements docked), or it could float and you could move it around as you see fit (and all tracks should be displayed.
Additionally, when you change an instrument on the chord grid (maybe by using the F5 key at a certain bar), the mixer should change to reflect that new instrument, not just keep showing the instrument as originally defined in the style. It’s confusing to see a guitar listed and hear a violin, for example.
The VST/DX screen is in need of rework (this issue affects both BIAB and RealBand). The top part of the window takes up a third to half of the screen, leaving little room for the actual VST (which is what you really want to see in the first place). When I want to just check, for example, if an instrument is playing through the VSTi, I should not have to bring up the windows, move the window to the top of the screen, resize the window so I can adjust the scroll bars, then adjust the scroll bars to see the VST interface. By that time, I’ve forgotten why I clicked on it in the first place. The stuff at the top is important, but ought to be called up only when you need it, not visible on the screen the whole time. Maybe a twisty where it by default displays the current selection only (on a single line), but then you click on the twisty to see the other tracks and selections, and then click the twisty again and it just displays the [possibly new] current selection. That way, there’s plenty of room for the actual DX/VST interface, which s what you wanted in the first place.
Even though there has been some work done here, the menus need to be reworked to remove redundancy.
For example, on the File Menu, how many “Open” commands do I need. I should only need one, and then I can choose what to open once the “Open” window appears (just like other Windows applications do).
Likewise on the Export To and Send To commands. I understand that one is the “last one selected”, but just make the default entry on the “Export To” command be the “last one selected”. The redundancy is not needed.
And you really only need a “Save” and “Save As” command. If something hasn’t been saved previously, then it should invoke the “Save As” command; otherwise, it just saves with whatever options you previously set. And then any options you want to set should be on the “Save As” screen (this is where you would be able to save with patches/harmonies/etc).
The help menu also has a number of (in my opinion) unnecessary redundancies, but all menus should be looked at carefully.
Yes, there is more that can be done (did someone say StylePicker, RealTracksPicker, Songlist, etc?), but as a start these would, in my opinion go a long way towards improving user experience and workflow for creating music. Of course, these are just my opinions and suggestions. Take 'em or leave 'em. I still love BIAB/RealBand and will continue to support it, regardless. Nothing else comes even close to doing what they do. _________________________ John
And my own contribution:
The ONE idea in the FL Studio video I would like PG Music implement is for the GUI to use vector graphics. BiaB and RB users have a wide variety of displays being driven by a variety of graphic cards or on board motherboard chips. The Fl Studio video demonstrated how vector graphics provides a sharp image on any size display. That's exciting!
I would like to see Band-in-a-Box and RealBand have screen tabs similar to those used in Chrome or Firefox. Each tab would display BiaB or RB from a different perspective. For instance, the default RealBand tabs might follow the progression to create a song with Tab 1 offering a minimal track screen, commands to import a SGU or midi file, chord sheet and load instruments, tab 2 geared to editing, tab 3 mixing and exporting.
While changing to vector graphics may prove a stretch, an effective use of tabs could eliminate a great deal of clutter.
Others suggestions were posted but I was unable to copy all of them.
"We want to take things out of the box, turn them on and see them leap into action without having to read anything"
taken from a blogg about user interfaces (2007).
The Sequencer Window. If I were a new user, who knows chord E A and D on the keyboard and has a shrewd idea of what a sequencer was, if I was exploring the interface as part of my dipping my toes in the water, if I pressed a button marked "Sequencer"
I would expect to see a sequencer view.
What the user actually sees actually get is:
1] A pop up box asking him to choose between a 'melody' and a 'soloist'
Bemused by the difference (don't soloists play the melody?). The user click one at random
This presents the user with.......... a question about mutlichannels
The user begins to wonder if irt is some sort of initiation test, all he wants to do is see the sequencer.
He clicks a guess again...
He is presented with another warning message saying the track screen will be blank "Great!" he thinks and click on still hoping to find...... a sequencer.
What appears is a strange screen showing buttons for all or none of - nothing. It does not look like a sequncer at all. He tries in his mind to compare it to a sequencer, but there is just not enough resemblance to make any connection. He is baffled.
By chance he clicks the video button and a strange video appears (check it out). Whatever is being explained does not answer the question where is hte sequencer?
Yes where is the sequencer?
Well weeks later you discover, there isnt one. At least there is one but you have to go out of the program load into RB and work from there.
All you wanted to see was a sequencer. You wanted to see the Audio and the MIDI tracks along with your recorded tracks.
Months later it dawns on you what PG thinks is a sequencer is only something that applies to the "Melody" track and the "Soloist" track. You Wonder why you cant see the MIDI for the MIDI drum.
Proposed Solution
Provide a proper sequencer window.
Drop the notion of melodist and soloist (whilst cleverly retaining their function)
just have tracks and track types.
Make any track recordable by the user.
On any MIDI track make the Notation and the Piano Roll screens accessible by clicking on the tracks in the sequncer.
Make a chord track behave like a chord does already and show this at the top line of the sequencer
Show the parts underneath
on MIDI tracks have a notation button, which glows when notation is available. On clicking, provide three choices "score view" "manuscript view" and "Sequencer view". The Manuscriot view shows the part in concent with other parts. The Sequencer view shows the part in (treble or bass or twin) under the sequencer track.
Make similar functions available for the Piano roll view.
Be able to edit and move chunks of things with tools
Make Transport controls moveable and dockeable
Melody and SOLOIST tracks can still remain but simply as a track type in the sequencer. As a specified type they would have specific editable attributes.
each track type would have its own attributes - Real Tracks might have to arrive in blocks. Cut shape and fade tools would be provided.
Stop the need to work in two applications integrate them intelligently.
If this was done the new user would click on a sequencer button and see a useful sequencer, with useful tools.
Currently it must appear almost designed to confuse.
Z
provide a editable mixer that floats resizes and twins with this.
Well, seeing that I managed to 'rock the boat' yesterday (this was unintentional, although it appears that I managed to completely capsize it...), I thought it my duty to come up with practical ideas instead of talk. Talk is cheap. Ideas, and functional concepts are required. It was therefore my duty to put in some effort to restore normality - if that's possible.
So, I spent a little bit of time today with some 'ideas only' concepts of how the interface could be improved, by reducing clutter, an hopefully streamlining the look and appearance, so to speak.
This is a rough shot, only a day's work (including video), and is completely conceptual. It could be improved for sure, but it's a start.
I hope that others might think this has merit and could be taken further, or offer their own suggestions, as others already have.
(I hope PGM staff get a chance to see it too. Peter, feel free to PM me for design ideas.)
Watching on YouTube at larger size is perhaps more beneficial to see the new features.
Feel free to provide all comments, criticisms, good, bad, anything.
My intentions (as always) are only to provide ideas to improve and advance the product, nothing less.
None of the ideas in the video are difficult to implement too.
That's a very impressive video. You have some good ideas. Here are some random thoughts.
The tabs or buttons might work better if they were on two rows with the top row selecting broad functions like create song, practice, perform, custom 1 and custom 2. Buttons on the second row would change based upon the top row selection. For example, when perform is selected you would see second row buttons for import songlist, play songlist, create songlist, display lyrics on/off, display chords on/off.
Trevor, I would adopt that in a heartbeat. Really great job. A lot of this is like changing the navigation scheme on a website, leaving the underlying called pages the same as they were but giving a whole new appearance = easy to implement as you said. I love it.
Your ideas for the progress bar and audio meters look great, too.
We definitely should make you feel bad more often!
By the way, great name for a song: "Uncontrollably Brazen". Even better name for a band. But the song on the screen is not what we were listening to...
Jim, yes, we can refine ideas for the button/menu system including sublevels. I think Trevor was going for the concept of showing how we could have the chordsheet take most of the screen, which I would really like. I'll bet those who use a laptop and play live gigs using the conductor would agree. This is quite exciting stuff.
The thought occurred to me when the curser was over the tracks button, why stop at the limited tracks that biab has, why not let the "tracks" actually open all the tracks in a style vieweable as in a DAW and maybe the ability to add up to 24 tracks or more?
00 I agree with most of your ideas. What I would add or change is to have all 16 MIDI channels open for the user. That way we could add more strings, guitar etc to the mix. Make all 16 channels open for either MIDI or RTs.
I would also add going to 64 bit at the same time.
I would not merge BiaB and RB into one product. I would have two products; one with the enhancements to BiaB and another with RB added to the enhanced BiaB. YMMV.
Excellent job Trevor! The only thing that I would change would be to have the play/record/song track/meter toolbar be floatable and able to be pinned anywhere in the main window. I prefer mine to be on the very top. This is nitpicking for sure but something to think about.
Now I have to get you mad about the lack of new MIDI styles
+1 Trevor. I think the ability to see what you're typing in the chord cell should be implemented. This may have been mentioned is someone's previous post. We shouldn't have to look elsewhere to see what we're typing.
Excellent job Trevor! The only thing that I would change would be to have the play/record/song track/meter toolbar be floatable and able to be pinned anywhere in the main window. I prefer mine to be on the very top. This is nitpicking for sure but something to think about.
Now I have to get you mad about the lack of new MIDI styles
+1 Mario and how about the ability to pin yellow messages
+1 Trevor. I think the ability to see what you're typing in the chord cell should be implemented. This may have been mentioned is someone's previous post. We shouldn't have to look elsewhere to see what we're typing.
It's interesting to me that the GUI is perceived to look 'better' when there is a menu structure (buttons) to bring up only the part(s) I want to see at the moment.
But I want to know about the song. Did you do that in BIAB??? The horns were terrific. Mixed with the synth - that was cool. Can you post that in the Showcase - and give specifics on how you created that?... Share!!
But I want to know about the song. Did you do that in BIAB??? The horns were terrific. Mixed with the synth - that was cool. Can you post that in the Showcase - and give specifics on how you created that?... Share!! floyd
Hi Floyd, thanks for the great feedback, appreciated. Unfortunately, I didn't produce the audio with BiaB. It was done using Sonicfire Pro's 'SmartSound' product, which is used to create backing tracks for movies and video. You just pick the genre, select any specific variations (mood, feel etc), set the required track length hh:mm:ss:ff, and it generates a track exactly to fit the desired length. I have a fairly large library of different sound styles. I guess that these are essentially very similar to 'Real Tracks'
I was going to do something in BiaB but run out of time (and maybe creativity by then!). Cheers Trevor
... By the way, great name for a song: "Uncontrollably Brazen". Even better name for a band. But the song on the screen is not what we were listening to...
Hi Matt, as mentioned in an above post, the song audio was produced by a different program. However, I used BiaB's Auto-Generate Song Title feature for a different song that was on screen (one I am currently writing) and it came up with "Uncontrollably Brazen", and well, I couldn't resist.
Wow, great production. I would agree with Mario D. About the play, record..... Personally I would rather wait another year to have a GUI like this rather than get something this year that would be a rehash of the same old look.
Great demo! Thanks for taking the time to put that together. It's always so much easier to "see" something, especially in a video, than to read through a description of it.
Instead of having a colour change to indicate the active bar have some form of symbol
I would favour some other form of indicator
The red line box in the lead sheet window is soooo thin that if you were using glasses precious nano seconds are lost glimpsing at where you are.
I want to say there is a lot to like about the chord sheet window. I run it with Alanah chocoloate theme,. If you are spending hours working on a tune its not a good thing to stare at manuscript whites. OK on a smaller device of course. COlour schemes fonts are really useful.
Agree that we should 'feel' like we are entering directly into a chord click on the chord in the song bang - chord change options apparent.
It would be good to be able to enable/disable a count in for a loop or section.
Would it be possible to use the repeat 1 and Repeat 2" Symbols when displaying the structure of a song. To have the option to show a song that way at a single click, in the main window - to set a pref.
Well done Trev I'm proud of you mate ! it's a shame you have to go through such a fight to point out the the truth but you kickedass and took BIAB into the stratosphere. He who has ears will hear.
I can't do it anymore I'm totally worn out, defeated, and given up !
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
Layout the preferences differently. The present look is crowded to the eye and reduces my mind to peering and hunt and peck. Colors and font prefs are in different places. Could do with a resort.
A Bigger window. Tree Structure pane. More air to breathe.
I am always loosings songs in the ether - Yes I am disorganised.
Suggestion?Brainstorm If we had the concept of 'most used' song, a song search filter for saved after date...
We need some kind of way of organising favorites without having favorite this and favourite that everywhere. Favorite song> Favorite Style, Favorite Real Track ALL one screen one place
Someway of indicating and setting this that Is very apparent
Eric Persing has come up with some new ways of searching for sounds in Omnisphere 2. One could search by "songs that feature this MIDI/Real Track instrument.
Could be very useful if expanded. Always with default but changeable preferences to set in new preferences look.
Add an optional piano/fretboard/notation view.
Show a standard voicing on a keyboard notation or Tab
Hsve some form of intelligent system to offer on the keyboard fret notation alternative chords/ voicings (within BIAB limits). Maybe an indication of a chords 'family'. Different views perhaps.
Well done Trev I'm proud of you mate ! it's a shame you have to go through such a fight to point out the the truth but you kickedass and took BIAB into the stratosphere. He who has ears will hear.
I can't do it anymore I'm totally worn out, defeated, and given up !
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein
SR, I'm pretty honored to get such praise from you. I know you have worked tirelessly with ideas, and taken these further to develop separate improvements that we have all benefited from. Your words speak volumes. There are lots of team players who have contributed. Every positive comment, every positive input is absolutely valuable. Teamwork is what it's all about, I reckon. Much appreciated. And "never give up". Your input has always been more than valuable. Trev
Well, seeing that I managed to 'rock the boat' yesterday (this was unintentional, although it appears that I managed to completely capsize it...), I thought it my duty to come up with practical ideas instead of talk. Talk is cheap. Ideas, and functional concepts are required. It was therefore my duty to put in some effort to restore normality - if that's possible.
So, I spent a little bit of time today with some 'ideas only' concepts of how the interface could be improved, by reducing clutter, an hopefully streamlining the look and appearance, so to speak.
This is a rough shot, only a day's work (including video), and is completely conceptual. It could be improved for sure, but it's a start.
I hope that others might think this has merit and could be taken further, or offer their own suggestions, as others already have.
(I hope PGM staff get a chance to see it too. Peter, feel free to PM me for design ideas.)
Watching on YouTube at larger size is perhaps more beneficial to see the new features.
Feel free to provide all comments, criticisms, good, bad, anything.
My intentions (as always) are only to provide ideas to improve and advance the product, nothing less.
None of the ideas in the video are difficult to implement too.
Best
Trevor
Nice job on the demo. But I would like to see them reorganize/refactor the toolbars (and menus and dialog boxes) rather than simply hiding them!
The truth of the matter is that in biab 2013 we had dockable toolbars, but we went backwards and this feature was removed.
Pg music totally buried its head in the sand, and though we were told often enough that the dockable feature would be reinstated and it "was a work in progress" nothing ever happened.
Just part of the reason this has reached the stage that it has now.
Well, seeing that I managed to 'rock the boat' yesterday (this was unintentional, although it appears that I managed to completely capsize it...), I thought it my duty to come up with practical ideas instead of talk. Talk is cheap. Ideas, and functional concepts are required. It was therefore my duty to put in some effort to restore normality - if that's possible.
So, I spent a little bit of time today with some 'ideas only' concepts of how the interface could be improved, by reducing clutter, an hopefully streamlining the look and appearance, so to speak.
This is a rough shot, only a day's work (including video), and is completely conceptual. It could be improved for sure, but it's a start.
I hope that others might think this has merit and could be taken further, or offer their own suggestions, as others already have.
(I hope PGM staff get a chance to see it too. Peter, feel free to PM me for design ideas.)
Watching on YouTube at larger size is perhaps more beneficial to see the new features.
Feel free to provide all comments, criticisms, good, bad, anything.
My intentions (as always) are only to provide ideas to improve and advance the product, nothing less.
None of the ideas in the video are difficult to implement too.
Best
Trevor
Nice job on the demo. But I would like to see them reorganize/refactor the toolbars (and menus and dialog boxes) rather than simply hiding them!
Totally agree the issues are far more than skin deep
All of the above suggestion and comments can be put into BIAB. You can have a Classic view option for those who don't want change or are stuck in the DOS Days and Themes for those who need change, these can be posted in the User Section Forum with a screen shot for anyone to download and change their layout with one click. The themes will have Custom Menus, all dockable, movable and resizable units.
Have the best of both worlds NOT one Layout for All !
They had adjustable docks and menus in BB/RB 2013 but instead of improving them they got rid of them and went backwards. You could have an option of icon big/small with or without text or text only NO icon.
Originally Posted By: solidrock
Originally Posted By: DEddy
Drag and Drop in BIAB.
Please consider having the ability to remove the Mixer window (hide) as this interferes with grabbing some instruments (see screenshot). Tough time trying to access Strings and no deal with getting to the Guitar.
For your consideration.
It should be very easy to do, but if they don't get around to it you can use a Tool to do it. You always have the floating mixer window if you disable the main. If you need it desperately, I can upload a tool. I adjusted it manually but if you know the size you just key it in. BB Custom.mp4
Just drag the cross-hair on the bottom right to the section you want to modify, click the minimize button or maximize if you want a big mixer (or just move it to the far right so you can just see a bit then you can move it back), then drag the cross-hair to the controls section, go to the Modify Window Tab, you have XY position & XY size, just key in size or use mouse wheel or cursor keys the on numbers. You can also move the controls to the bottom and Chords to the top but it would be a lot easier if PG let you do this with a simple click n drag. It's not permanent, next time you start it will be back to it's locked restrictive layout. Will work with RB also.
It's a handy little Tool, maybe it should come with BB & RB
I think it would a good idea to prioritize what improvements should be made. Since BIAB moves slowly with changes, I would like to see some basic functions improved before any changes to the GUI are made. One thing among others is the abiliy to put more than 4 chords in a measure. This has been in the wishlist for many years. I'd like the ability to hide icons not used returned. Ray
