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Hi Guys ..,

I have an awesome idea / suggestion / wish ..., for an All new .., B.I.A.B Audiophile 'PRO PLUS' Edition cool


In this proposed suggestion / wish for a NEW Audiophile PRO PLUS Edition .......,

* Id love to see the Audio files offered in a higher bitrate quality of 24 BIT .., instead of the 16 bit format (as they are now).

* I'd also like to see a DRY TRACKS also available (in this proposed new Audiophile PRO PLUS version)


- ie; DRY track versions also offered for the Real-Tracks Audio ..., (DRY meaning - a bare bones audio track with zero FX added / printed with the audio)

- ie; Minus their already printed 'added reverb and compression etc' , thus giving users the ability to instead add their own 3rd party FX in their own personalised flavour via both the BIAB FX slots , or In a DAW


The increased bitrate suggestion to 24 Bit Audio would ...,

Allow these proposed 24bit audio samples a much better better chance of retaining their full fidelity upon final the mix down after they are mangled & mashed within the DAW

Real mixing examples of this are :

- File conversions,
- Time stretching to fit to project tempo's and tempo changes throughout a song,
- Adding FX
- 2 Track stereo Mastering
- Dithering & even more converting



The Dry Tracks suggestion would ................,

Create a better 'all round' end result to your mixes , by allowing the user to sit the instruments in the mix where they like , (and not where BAIB pigeon holes' it to be) ........,

This means ....,

- the amount of reverb also not only creates a sense of space (eg: size , like room, hall, cathedral etc)
- it goes further than that by giving its own uniqueness to what type that space actually is and the materials contained within (wood , stone etc).
- Reverb can be special FX also , like plate reverbs , tube reverbs , reverse reverbs , pre-delay adjustments , Dry vs Wet signal blending (or using FX sends) etc .
- Reverb can also be Taylor made also in many ways including, not just the depth , tail length and decays
.., but other things to like the EQ of the reverb ..., for example you may want to only add reverb effects the high end only ,
.., but not to the bottom end frequencies of whatever instrument etc you are adding that reverb to.
- Perhaps you only want a custom convolution reverb .., Reverb is a powerful thing and colours and adds different moods and feels your mix in so many different ways .., and a DRY tracks Option for BIAB would allow us to control all of this in our DAW mixes.

...,and most importantly by adding your own reverb to a DRY audio track enables the producer to place emphasis on giving the listener an idea (ie; attention or focus) to where the vocal, or instruments 'actual placing is' within the sound field.
- All the above applies to compression FX also.

This placing could be either being up close and personal, through to being further back in the room , and all points in between.




I think it would be a great idea to grant the user the freedom to decide where this space and place and feeling needs to be in their mix

All this can be done without placing a finger on the volume fader.
.., Turning up that fader will only increase volume - and not increase that vocal or instruments presence (ie; focus point) in the mix.

Rather than restricting all your other added elements within your mix into the confines of BIAB's pre-determined mix boundaries (ie; due to BIAB's FX Printed audio tracks) .., much of our possible Mixing power, our uniqueness, and our freedom to mix where our heart takes us is being handicapped with the current 16 bit & Printed FX to Real tracks specifications .




ps ; I had this post in another thread , but I think this deserves a thread of its own smile

Question .., what are your thoughts ..., and who would like to jump on this option if it was available ?
Well said. This request, both parts, has been made several times before and some of us have indicated support.

We users do not know how the thousands of RealTracks and RealDrums were recorded. We also do not know what program modifications might be needed for BIAB to read files of higher bit and/or sample rates. The size of the USB drive would have to be larger than the present 1.5 TB drive.

The dry tracks probably exist, in CD quality, though it depends if reverb was applied during recording. I think that would be unlikely since some dry tracks are already supplied with BIAB.

It would be nice to have these options if it's possible.
I can see how some users would like that.

For me I would like to see the opposite, an audiophile minus edition.

Basically it would be WMA files for the realtracks, along with WAV files for the realdrums.

To my ears the WMA files sound fine for most instruments, I can't tell the difference between a WMA and a WAV and if I can't hear it I'm not willing to pay for it.

Drums are different, I can certainty hear lack of high end definition on the WMA file, cymbals etc.

The audiophile version as it stands it too pricey for me, but I would pay more money to get the audiophile version of realdrums.
Dave, yes, the cymbals are one of the best places to hear compression artifacts.

We greedy users (!) started asking for access to even higher quality drum tracks almost as soon as they first became available, around, I think, 2008. Then the request was repeated when RealTracks were introduced. But your suggestion should be doable; there's nothing new that would need to be created, and the program already handles it technically. If BIAB reads a .WAV file, it loads it. Otherwise, it loads and uncompresses a .WMA file. All that's needed then is a repackaging and a change of marketing. As a bridge to the full audiophile version, it might even prompt more eventual upgrades for PG Music.

I think this is the first time this specific request has been made. And SFG's revisit to this topic was very helpful to prompt your idea. Good job all around.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Well said. This request, both parts, has been made several times before and some of us have indicated support.

We users do not know how the thousands of RealTracks and RealDrums were recorded. We also do not know what program modifications might be needed for BIAB to read files of higher bit and/or sample rates. The size of the USB drive would have to be larger than the present 1.5 TB drive.

The dry tracks probably exist, in CD quality, though it depends if reverb was applied during recording. I think that would be unlikely since some dry tracks are already supplied with BIAB.

It would be nice to have these options if it's possible.


Hi Matt,
You make some interesting points and its encouraging to hear other users would be interested . If PG can see a market they will surely act to fill that void.


Re; The 1.5 TB Drive : ..., I also see that compulsory drive as a shortfall in itself .

That Included Hard Drive (that ships with BIAB Audiophile Edition)
..., Sure its good to have have it for those who want it - but it should be an option IMO

.., for me personally

- I see that PG provided drive only option as an expensive white elephant that makes the purchase price of BIAB more expensive than it needs to be .
(in my case $400 more expensive as I'd also need to pay international shipping + import taxes on the full BIAB price incl shipping costs - once that shipped BIAB hard drive enters my country mad .., then there is the unwanted cost of the drive itself )

IMO - A downloadable OPTION should be made available !
(other companies easily manage this by breaking down their large download into numerous , smaller more manageable sized download 'chunks' (eg: Zip files of 1 - 10 GB each in size) where the download picks up where it left of incase your internet connection gets interrupted during the download

Advantages in Downloading BIAB Audiophile would be this :

- The Buyer - would save on the expensive freight ..., (there is no freight cost when it is a download)
- The Buyer - (international) wouldn't have to pay import duty on the product ..., (if it was downloadable)
- The Buyer - would save money by not having to buy the hard drive from PG in the first place
- The Buyer - may not need (or want) the PG, hard drive ..., (I prefer storing Samples & V.I libraries on separate SSD's, or on PCiE's for faster loading)

The Physical Hard Drive included with BIAB unnecessarily adds to making BIAB more expensive than it needs to be.
Please PG - to make your product even more attractive to buyers (by lowering your purchase price to include a downloadable version) surely this would increase your sales also .., Please make this alternative option available wink




RE; PG & those 24 bit files ..,

I presume there has to be 24 bit Audio files stored safety away within the 'PG' data vaults,

..., as I have never heard of anyone choosing undertake a serious studio recording session by setting up their project with a sample rate and bit setting of less than 44.1kHz and 24 bit
(ie; at least within the last 15 years or so wink )

..., Now that Hard Drive storage space is getting cheaper, many are now choosing to record at at 96kHz , and up to 194kHz.

As for sound sample libraries Go ..., 44.1kHz x 24 bit samples have been the accepted industry standard for many years now , well before the introduction of BIAB .

16 bit BIAB files are truly fine on their own living within the APP known as BIAB (fidelity wise) .., just the same as your CD's at home are also that same 16 bit.., but it is when we export these 16 files into a DAW to endure the further processing - is where that originating 16 bit file starts to suffer.


As no doubtably we are opening our new DAW projects these days at a 'minimum' selected audio quality of 44.1kHz , and 24 bit ...., we proceed to import those 16 bit BIAB files into our DAW project . The very first thing that happens to those 16 bit BIAB files upon importing them to our DAW project is they are 'UP Converted' to 24 bit to conform with our chosen project setting . This does not increase the fidelity of that originating 16 bit file , this conversion does the opposite.

Next we time stretch it,
- add FX (where possible - but these possibilities very limited , or even disabling - due to those files already have FX printed on them )
- mix and mash
- often slight compression is also added on the master buss (to glue the mix)
- Next .., the mix is either Dithered and bounced down to a 16 bit stereo mix ready for print on a CD ,
- Or ..., handed off to a Mastering engineer who does further processing , then dithers and converts the stereo mix to 16 bit.

For the folk who just use BIAB and stay in BIAB .., then the 16 bit files do not pose an issue for you guys
.., but for those who exported those BIAB files out to their DAWs for further mixing and processing then it does effect your final mixes.

.., If you were to then listen to that originating 16 bit BIAB sample after all that mashing in those steps listed above
Hypothetically .. it would be comparable to a comparison of quality between your favorite purchased CD it's the MP3 version.

Please Note Guys:
My reasons for this thread is not to highlight the short comings (ie; limitations) of BIAB in a bagging out or disrespectful manner, but merely to highlight what could easily be possible - with the hopes of seeing BIAB move towards being a more professional and even better product than it already is cool


Yes, yes, I know all that but this is a good explanation for anyone who doesn't understand the request.

Modifying the download strategy is a good suggestion. PG Music also did some experiments with flash drives as the delivery method but apparently did not adopt it for performance reasons.
I'm 100% on board with DRY Real Tracks. Perhaps offer it as an option. For those if us who use a DAW to mix, I know I'd love to have non-effected tracks.

However, I realize the monumental task of going back and remixing the existing RT's to dry.

There would still be a need for the "normal" version since many users do not have the time, or skills, to work with dry tracks to make them sound good straight out of the box.

It would be interesting to know how many people would be interested in the raw, 24bit edition..... to make it worth while investing the time and effort into from PG's end of things.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Yes, yes, I know all that but this is a good explanation for anyone who doesn't understand the request.

Modifying the download strategy is a good suggestion. PG Music also did some experiments with flash drives as the delivery method but apparently did not adopt it for performance reasons.


Hi again Matt ,

I already had an idea you knew your way around a console Matt .., or the traps . I should have addressed your post first before writing the rest of that post . blush
.., plus you had suggested correctly about my explanation being aimed towards some of those users who may not be as familiar with DAWs and the more detailed aspects of Tracking and Mixing and how it all links to the suggestions.



I hope my detailed explanation was not "too long winded and boring" but explained it well enough in layman terms for those wondering , or the guys that use BIAB for other reasons (as there are many diverse users using BIAB for different reasons).

I know my suggestions are likely to be aimed towards a minority of BIAB users ATM, but I do know with these suggestions implemented that BIAB would be welcoming and attracting a whole new user base.

As a Mac user, I quelled the idea of integrating BIAB with DAW use as it wasn't too long ago that some of the lacking features in BIAB for Mac turned out to be dealbreakers for me .

Now on a brighter side - I now see some of those previous deal breakers have been implemented just recently .., and this has re-sparked my interest in BIAB, and now I am at least sitting on the fence 'umming & ah-ing' and alllllmost ready / planning to make my 1st BIAB purchase ,

.., but it is the lack of those items suggested that is holding me back from instantly and enthusiastically leaping with head,hands,& feet with an open chequebook. For me and my intended use for BIAB to be honest - without those items implemented means BIAB is only half the product of what it has the potential to be .., and that potential is one of awesomeness ..., meanwhile all the studio guys are asking "are we there yet"....., ?

If PG implemented those suggestions , then PG would be sending out the welcome mat while raising the eyebrows of a whole new range off studio / Daw users.



I completely agree with you: BIAB could more easily attract a new (though perhaps small) user base of pro musicians and recording engineers. If it's technically possible, it would be really terrific if higher bit rate files were an option. You're right, 24-bit recording is the standard, and it seems likely PG Music would have used that for the master recordings, but we users don't know.

I think your explanations were fine! I tend to go slowly at first until I see what the appropriate level of knowledge is.
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
Basically it would be WMA files for the realtracks, along with WAV files for the realdrums.

While I doubt that I'll ever purchase an Audiophile version (I'd use EZ Drummer if I had issues with RealDrum quality), this seems a very sensible suggestion.
no interest in 24-bit...don't even own audiophile version...but dry tracks are always welcome!
Dry Tracks ?

If "Direct Input" is checked, the selected RealTracks will use a "clean signal" guitar so that you can add your own effects through AmpliTube or similar Plugins. See the "Direct Input Available" column for availability of clean recordings.
Pipeline, I think the point is that "dry tracks" (Direct Input) was released after a number of RealTracks had already been released. So the checkbox only works for those that have that option, and you need to go look and see in RT Picker whether it does.

So there are those tracks that are just processed, and those that have the option of processed or dry (double the space). This to me sounds like a request that all be "dry".
* I'd also like to see a DRY TRACKS also available (in this proposed new Audiophile PRO PLUS version)

"If "Direct Input" is checked, the selected RealTracks will use a "clean signal" guitar so that you can add your own effects through AmpliTube or similar Plugins. See the "Direct Input Available" column for availability of clean recordings."

That says it all, there are already dry tracks and the only ones you are gonna get are the ones that are available. You can't get all DRY.
Originally Posted By: jford
Pipeline, I think the point is that "dry tracks" (Direct Input) was released after a number of RealTracks had already been released. So the checkbox only works for those that have that option, and you need to go look and see in RT Picker whether it does.

So there are those tracks that are just processed, and those that have the option of processed or dry (double the space). This to me sounds like a request that all be "dry".


Hi John ,

Yes my suggestion was for dry tracks for everything .

meaning.., it would be great if PG could go back to their DAW project backups of those original performances that would have no doubt been recorded at a higher bit rate (ie; 44.1kHz or higher x 24bit) ,

and re-bounce / export those original individual tracks out of the DAW


..............., But this time around .............,


- Export them a 24 bit (not 16 bit)

- Make inactive / turn off / disengage all added FX inserts and sends - from those individual tracks before bouncing out those new version 24 bit instrument recording - so that they have ZERO FX at all printed to them (Dry tracks)

.., this includes all instruments .., guitars basses, horn,keys etc ..., the lot.

Note : on occasions a recording engineer 'might include a very slight compression on some instruments like a bass guitar to tame the signal during the recording stage for controlling peaks to the signal meaning - that effect is printed regardless .

.., but anything added after that stage can easily be disengaged from the audio and exported FX free.

Cheers
Dave.

PS: I also think the original printed tracks (but in a 24 bit format and not the current 16 bit format) should be provided also - some guys mentioned that .., My suggestion is give the users the choices .., my point is without the 24 bit tracks and dry tracks , our options limiting to achieve professional sounding individual mixes is too limiting

I also know to suggest the above is lots of work , But to lift the bar and strive for a higher level is always going to mean work .., right

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Drums are a different story (unfortunately) and harder to provide FX free stereo stems

Unless BIAB could provide ALL the separate Drum tracks ..., FX FREE .., including ..,

- All individual drum tracks including,
- Kick (in)
- Kick (out)
- Kick (sub)
- Snare (top)
- Snare (bottom)
- Toms
- Hi Hats
- Overhead Mics,
- and any other Ambient room Mics if present

(all individual dry tracks in 24 bit each of course) ..., Hey theres an idea cool cool cool cool


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


anyhow..., there are possible issues with providing FX free real drum tracks (in stereo) .......................................................,


Real drums may be a issue .., as the drums are stereo stem mixes (ie; a sub mix off all the individual drum mics including overheads and distant room ambience mics (if any)

.., usually when making a sub mix like this ...,

Compression, Reverbs, & EQ for each individual drums are treated separately - with all the different FX levels designated for each drum added individually on an 'as needed basis' .., (eg: a snare may have reverb, while the kick wont have any)
- This is to balance / help / and blend these individual drums and cymbals (all with different frequency ranges) to sit nicely in the mix while not overcrowding the other instruments within the mix.

For each Individual Drum /Cymbal / Room Mics .., Pan settings and FX settings , and even volume settings carefully need to be calculated and adjusted during this stage to specifically enhance that actual songs individual characteristics.
These specially prepared individual settings then combine to help that song flow, or perhaps it requires a boost, or maybe a pushing, give it a rushed feel, an in your face feel, or perhaps you want a laid back feel to sit just behind the beat - with the surrounding song they are being individually mixed for.

So thats why those individual drums are mixed in such a way - ie: for their own unique reasons , not a generic one (as we are already all aware of wink )



So .., getting back to that Stereo Drum Stem/Mix ...,


Anyhow .., this final stereo drum stem is likely to remain printed with FX setting that cant be removed (as explained above),

..., and going back to the mix to remove those FX just for the reason of providing a new FX-Less stem would more than likely render that stem lacking it's gel and punch from the drums ..., but there are exceptions ..,

- The only exception this where it would be safe to remove compression, EQ , or reverb from the drums is only if those FX were added to the stereo drum stem AFTER the individual drum mix was created (ie: to glue over the whole kit) ..., then if that was the case we can get rid of those added FX, so that we could at least - have that freedoms to add our own FX for a more suited flavor within our mixes ,
.., It still wont be perfect though, because the underlaying drum elements that have already been printed already mixed may not suit , but it still gives a touch more freedom.




Some may say .., But I like the stereo drums (ie; if they were 24 bit )

Question - now I am ready to go out and start mixing .., right ..., ?



The answer is : Yes and No ,

.., yes if you not fussy and just want a beat to groove to . In your case you are good to go , and 24 bit drums added to your daw will sound much-much better then the current 16 bit versions,

.., and depending on how compressed the current drum stems are , then they should still survive some further compression when a mild compressor is added later in the mastering stage to glue together your final mix.



.., or NO because those drums were 'not' individually mixed in context to whats happening in your mix, they were mixed, EQed, reverbed, and compressed and punch added etc to emphasize whats happening within , and to suit someone else's mix - not yours.

So your only choice here from a mixing perspective, is to begin your mix by using these drums as a starting point ..., and then base the entire feel and dynamics and ambience of the 'rest of your song' ..., based on what those BIAB real-drums are doing (ie; as you start adding & placing the rest of your other instruments into the mix after the drums) ..., meaning those drums are now dictating your mix.

A better alternative method

Luckily BIAB also provides those MIDI files for if the above method does not suit you , and its likely many that fills and hits used in real-tracks wont be spot on anyway .., so a better solution in this case (as Im sure everyone already knows) is to export that midi off to the DAWS MIDI editor for the necessary corrections etc . and then use something like Toontracks Superior Drummer (or similar) to custom taylor something more suitable to suit your desired flavour

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know there are a lot of you guys out there who already know all this stuff backwards and inside out .

The reason I went into such detail was to give a better understanding for those folks who have either not yet explored their DAWs on a deeper level but might want to at some stage, nor perhaps have never used ta DAW before, and were considering buying one.

.., and for those folks , you shouldn't really say you don't need this functionality , (sure some of you might not want or need it) , but there will be many of you who at a later stage.., may find your self In your DAW as such wanting to make full use of these suggestions put forth .

All the best blush
That's a good point: as your equipment, experience, ears, and reputation develop, you will appreciate working with the best quality you can get.
SFG brought a number of points to light for me that I’d not thought about, or didn’t know about BIAB. I’m one of those who’s been thinking about upgrading to the audiophile edition. Now, I’m thinking----why not wait for the improved version, if such is likely to come from his suggestions? Makes sense to me (especially for home recording)----although I wish the upgrade was not so costly. On the other hand, wonder how much additional costs might be involved to cover a major upgrade of the audiophile edition?
I think when realtrack/drums were first developed back then they may have thought they would be just used for just live accompaniment, practice, learning or backing tracks and not professional studio use as they are now.
Like the midi charts that were not originally recorded at the same time with midi pickups or DI boxes for dry tracks, so the original recorded ones had to have the midi notation added, I could be wrong but I think Matt had to transcribe some if I remember correctly ? The drums also were just recorded in stereo from the mixer so there were no multichannel drums and midi triggers on them to get midi also.
I do hope that there are original 48/24 bit recordings though ?????
The size of the drive these days shouldn't matter, I see there are 2T SSD drives now so give that a bit of time and they will be cheaper and up to 4t.
I thought also any tracks that have DI you should not have to include the FX ones on the drive or wav/aiff download, maybe just the compressed ones wma/m4a, or, biab/realband could just load an preset fx to go with the DI track ???
To have more control over RT soloist with what's been said before entering the notation and bb engine scans the RT midi notation to place those notes of the RT where you need them, it won't be ideal but will give something closer than random. You could have it like the multiriff selector to rearranged something closer to your notes and give you a lot of choices.

J. Larry, this all is just a suggestion and speculation. I would have to think it would be a massive effort to prepare thousands of files in higher quality, even if they do exist from the original recording process (which we don't know). Then the BIAB program must be modified to accept them because it accepts .WAV in CD quality and .WMA only (to my knowledge, based on handling of loops).

Pipeline, yes, I was hired to do early RealTracks transcriptions but I assume they hired others also. I was directed not to say anything about their proprietary process, so I didn't. However, I have to assume that the process must have been automated by now with the existence of tools like Melodyne.
"Then the BIAB program must be modified to accept them because it accepts them..."
BB accepts UserTrack @ 48/24 and RB does also now, so that's a step to getting there.

And yes automated, like the Yamaha piano that records the midi as well.

They will get there, I think there will be big leaps happening now.

In the Share your Band-in-a-Box® Tutorials, Blog Posts, and Reviews! Morrisman gives it a good review but mentions the lack of support for genre's like hip hop R&B.
Not that I'm into hip hop but to attract younger users it might be a good move.

https://youtu.be/h6QojyJVOf0?t=3m6s
Originally Posted By: Pipeline

BB accepts UserTrack @ 48/24 and RB does also now, so that's a step to getting there.

Interesting, I did not know that. But I tested loops of 24/44.1 and they were not recognized (unless I did something wrong). So we need to convert an audiophile RealTrack to 24-bit and try it.
I tried what you suggested but it just generated up hiss, that's what 48/24 UserTracks/Loops use to do in RealBand until they fixed it.

Size of wav's was
16/44 478meg
24/48 780meg
I just found out from reading another thread that yes, we do know now that the RealTracks were apparently not recorded in a higher quality than CD quality. This observation was made by a member of the PG Music staff.
"24-bit would be nice, though older RealTracks would not be able to take advantage of the added resolution since they're all recorded in 44.1/16-bit. "

Older ? I wonder how old before higher bitrates were used 2009, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ?
that is not good after spendin mo money on the bundle thinking your getting higher quality samples.
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
"24-bit would be nice, though older RealTracks would not be able to take advantage of the added resolution since they're all recorded in 44.1/16-bit. "

Older ? I wonder how old before higher bitrates were used 2009, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ?


Yes I wonder this also .., there must have been a time when PG considered 16 bit recording too primitive and up'ed the ante to 24 bit..., at least those files would/and could be used as true 24 bit files .., as for the older 16 bit files ..,

Any old 16 bit files can still be up-coverted by PG to 24 bit to suit NEW a re-worked 24bit audiophile PRO plus BIAB (even though quality will still be 16 bit fidelity) .., as it is now - the current 16 bit files are getting up-converted anyway to 24 bit (automatically) .., as soon as they are dragged into your DAW.

..., and any new recorded files would be recorded in 24 bit also ..,

I wish PG would come out and comment on this whole thread confused , and comment about what their future intentions might possibly be and where they would like to be.

Surely, in any logical sense PG must have had serious goals to move BIAB forward / and move away from the 16bit environment well before any of you guys originally made those suggestions to PG years ago . That suggestion (years ago) was a fair call , and was not as if you were asking PG to design people carrying space rockets.

Even myself as a greenhorn gave away 16 bit for 24 bit back when Windows 98 made it's appearance. To see 16 bit files still in use today I feel like i've just stepped out of Dr Who's Tardis
Originally Posted By: SFG
(snip) I wish PG would come out and comment on this whole thread confused , and comment about what their future intentions might possibly be and where they would like to be. (Snip)


I do not know of a time when PG Music has announced future intentions. The only people outside of PG Music that may have a clue are the beta software testers and they have to agree to remain silent in order to become a beta tester.
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
I can see how some users would like that.

For me I would like to see the opposite, an audiophile minus edition.

Basically it would be WMA files for the realtracks, along with WAV files for the realdrums.

To my ears the WMA files sound fine for most instruments, I can't tell the difference between a WMA and a WAV and if I can't hear it I'm not willing to pay for it.

Drums are different, I can certainty hear lack of high end definition on the WMA file, cymbals etc.

The audiophile version as it stands it too pricey for me, but I would pay more money to get the audiophile version of realdrums.


Hey Blue, if you have any real tracks or packs, PG Music will give you a huge discount for every pack you bought. I was able to get BIAB Audiphile 2015 for about $100-200 because of all the tracks I bought.
Originally Posted By: SFG
Hi Guys ..,

I have an awesome idea / suggestion / wish ..., for an All new .., B.I.A.B Audiophile 'PRO PLUS' Edition cool


In this proposed suggestion / wish for a NEW Audiophile PRO PLUS Edition .......,

* Id love to see the Audio files offered in a higher bitrate quality of 24 BIT .., instead of the 16 bit format (as they are now).

* I'd also like to see a DRY TRACKS also available (in this proposed new Audiophile PRO PLUS version)


- ie; DRY track versions also offered for the Real-Tracks Audio ..., (DRY meaning - a bare bones audio track with zero FX added / printed with the audio)

- ie; Minus their already printed 'added reverb and compression etc' , thus giving users the ability to instead add their own 3rd party FX in their own personalised flavour via both the BIAB FX slots , or In a DAW


The increased bitrate suggestion to 24 Bit Audio would ...,

Allow these proposed 24bit audio samples a much better better chance of retaining their full fidelity upon final the mix down after they are mangled & mashed within the DAW

Real mixing examples of this are :

- File conversions,
- Time stretching to fit to project tempo's and tempo changes throughout a song,
- Adding FX
- 2 Track stereo Mastering
- Dithering & even more converting



The Dry Tracks suggestion would ................,

Create a better 'all round' end result to your mixes , by allowing the user to sit the instruments in the mix where they like , (and not where BAIB pigeon holes' it to be) ........,

This means ....,

- the amount of reverb also not only creates a sense of space (eg: size , like room, hall, cathedral etc)
- it goes further than that by giving its own uniqueness to what type that space actually is and the materials contained within (wood , stone etc).
- Reverb can be special FX also , like plate reverbs , tube reverbs , reverse reverbs , pre-delay adjustments , Dry vs Wet signal blending (or using FX sends) etc .
- Reverb can also be Taylor made also in many ways including, not just the depth , tail length and decays
.., but other things to like the EQ of the reverb ..., for example you may want to only add reverb effects the high end only ,
.., but not to the bottom end frequencies of whatever instrument etc you are adding that reverb to.
- Perhaps you only want a custom convolution reverb .., Reverb is a powerful thing and colours and adds different moods and feels your mix in so many different ways .., and a DRY tracks Option for BIAB would allow us to control all of this in our DAW mixes.

...,and most importantly by adding your own reverb to a DRY audio track enables the producer to place emphasis on giving the listener an idea (ie; attention or focus) to where the vocal, or instruments 'actual placing is' within the sound field.
- All the above applies to compression FX also.

This placing could be either being up close and personal, through to being further back in the room , and all points in between.




I think it would be a great idea to grant the user the freedom to decide where this space and place and feeling needs to be in their mix

All this can be done without placing a finger on the volume fader.
.., Turning up that fader will only increase volume - and not increase that vocal or instruments presence (ie; focus point) in the mix.

Rather than restricting all your other added elements within your mix into the confines of BIAB's pre-determined mix boundaries (ie; due to BIAB's FX Printed audio tracks) .., much of our possible Mixing power, our uniqueness, and our freedom to mix where our heart takes us is being handicapped with the current 16 bit & Printed FX to Real tracks specifications .




ps ; I had this post in another thread , but I think this deserves a thread of its own smile

Question .., what are your thoughts ..., and who would like to jump on this option if it was available ?


How's is Pro Tools 12.6.0 working for you? Backing on topic.

I would love to see an Audiophile plus version of Band-in-Box, but I see a huge problem with getting dry tracks. We do not have any idea where the tracks where recorded, who recorded them, when they where recorded, how and every how they where mixed for Band in a Box. Did the engineer(s) record the tracks dry? Did they prints fxs durring the recording? Did they reamp them durring the sessions? When mixed, did they add FXs, compression, EQ? Also, how did PG Music recieve the tracks? Did they get a dry version and a wet? It really comes down to how PG Music requested the tracks and sessions to be recorded and mixed. Also, how would PG music convert 16 bit tracks to 24 bit, and would they sound any different? One more thing to take into account for is the studio or place the tracks where recorded in. What was the size of the space? How much treatment was placed in the room? How did they mic each instrument? Last, how long ago where the RealTracks recorded? Does the studio or place still have the sessions on file? If so, can they read the files, or where they created on outdated software and computers?

I'd would love to have every track be a dry track and have 24 bit audio, but you have to understand that there are some issues with trying to accomplish such a huge task.

PS: How do you guys know that the tracks are 16bit?
P.S.S.: I check some of the drum recordings out and it sound to me like the reverb is coming from the room.
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
* I'd also like to see a DRY TRACKS also available (in this proposed new Audiophile PRO PLUS version)

"If "Direct Input" is checked, the selected RealTracks will use a "clean signal" guitar so that you can add your own effects through AmpliTube or similar Plugins. See the "Direct Input Available" column for availability of clean recordings."

That says it all, there are already dry tracks and the only ones you are gonna get are the ones that are available. You can't get all DRY.


Size of one RT wav's
16/44 478meg
24/48 780meg



"PS: How do you guys know that the tracks are 16bit?"

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370565#Post370565

Originally Posted By: Mat - PG Music
24-bit would be nice, though older RealTracks would not be able to take advantage of the added resolution since they're all recorded in 44.1/16-bit.

I love the idea option of more dynamics. I know it's used a lot for DVD and Blu-Ray audio. For someone releasing audio on CD, it will be downmixed to 44.1 16-bit and need to be dithered anyway. Even some popular compression formats won't do 24-bit.

Just genuinely curious about the final media format you would use for the 24-bit output.

Note: I'm not the development team, and if this hasn't been mentioned yet already, it should be posted in the Wish List forum if there is genuine interest in this feature.
There have been a few other hints, but this statement just cited above is the closest we have to a definitive statement from the company. It mentions CD quality of 44.1/16. It also says "older" RealTracks, which leaves open the possibility that some recent ones may be different. As far as I know, there has been no comment on how many of the tracks were recorded 'dry'.
Some electric guitar and electric bass RealTracks have both wet and dry versions. Check for dry input variations.

The "surf" drums also have wet and dry variations.
One thing we don't know is how the magic behind the smoking mirror happens.
Therefore we have no idea what kind of undertaking it would be.
What if every single 'marker' that BiaB uses behind the scenes is related to the bitrate used? (I wouldn't doubt it).
What if every single Realtrack would have to be manually re-marked for these positions to know what section to use when generating? That would be a lot of rework.

The point is, we don't know how much work it would be to add 24-bit. Or how much benefit we would gain at this point.
My hunch; the original studio recordings are probably higher quality than 16/44 but if it means going back to square one for every single realtrack .. well that's more costly than the GUI rebuild many have been hankerin' for.

I suspect that when a SEQ file in RB is set to 24/48, the program still uses the wma or 16/44 bitrate to generate any new parts, then upconverts afterwards before writing to disk.
That order may be telling us something.
I re-encoded a RT set to 16bit 48 and 96 Khz and they still worked, it just don't like the 24bit, but I would say that is just the engine. The marker info should be in the other files XT/ST that go with the wav/wma.

Now I just tried a 24bit 48Khz wav RT set on MacBB and it worked !
Originally Posted By: rharv
One thing we don't know is how the magic behind the smoking mirror happens.
Therefore we have no idea what kind of undertaking it would be.
What if every single 'marker' that BiaB uses behind the scenes is related to the bitrate used? (I wouldn't doubt it).
What if every single Realtrack would have to be manually re-marked for these positions to know what section to use when generating? That would be a lot of rework.

The point is, we don't know how much work it would be to add 24-bit. Or how much benefit we would gain at this point.
My hunch; the original studio recordings are probably higher quality than 16/44 but if it means going back to square one for every single realtrack .. well that's more costly than the GUI rebuild many have been hankerin' for.

I suspect that when a SEQ file in RB is set to 24/48, the program still uses the wma or 16/44 bitrate to generate any new parts, then upconverts afterwards before writing to disk.
That order may be telling us something.



Hi rhav,

YES .., It is work .., exactly ..., we all have to work - and it's no big deal wink

I am not sure what the point is from your post, other than acknowledging there is work involved ?
There was work involved in making my breakfast this morning . I could have gone the easy route and just made grabbed a piece of fruit
.., or I could have made Bacon & Eggs on toast with Sausages, Mushrooms, Grilled Tomato , with a side of mixed Fruit Salad , Coffee and a Juice grin

My point is .., The more effort = The better the outcome smile




RE: Your comment about Up converting 16 BIT Files ...,
(ie : if PG up-converted it's 16 bit files to 24 bit)

Most get it, but I have sensed some misconceptions about loss of fidelity .., please allow me to reiterate.

..., if ANY current BIAB 16 bit file actually got dragged dragged out of BIAB and them IMPORTED into anyones DAW ...,

- then that BIAB 16 bit BIAB file will get AUTOMATICALLY Up-Coverted to 24 bit anyway by the DAW !

.., So therefore it does not matter one iota if PG does this up-converting 'first' to 24bit (ie; from their PG originating 16 bit file) .
All that means is that when we drag that up-converted (by PG) BIAB file into our DAWS , then no more converting will need take place as its already been converted by PG....,



RE: The SPECULATION .., that some of PG's earlier BIAB files may only may archived in 16 bit ...,
(this speculation suggest there may also be 24 bit files also, so these would NOT need to be "up-converted)

Now that up-converting would ONLY be required for perhaps their absolute earlier Real tracks where (perhaps) NO previous 24bit versions could be found (ie; in PG's Archives)

My point is if you plan to use any PG BIAB file in your DAW , then "as it is in BIAB 2016" .., your DAW is currently up-converting that file anyway (presuming you are going to be using a DAW)




The reason I am saying you DAW will Automatically up-convert the 16bit BIAB file to 24 bit is ...,

- this is because these days 44.1KHz x 24bit has been the 'minimum' chosen setting being currently being undertaken by DAW users (and mostly has been for about the last 15-20 years) .

This is because when a DAW User decides to start a project in 16 bit (not 24 bit) .., then recording those tracks in 16bit results in them further getting 'smashed and mashed' within the DAW...., ie: edited , tempo mapped & time stretched , altered by FX , compressed numerous times , mixed , and then finally spat out of the DAW sounding something like the quality of a low rate 128kbps MP3
(ie: far-far below the quality of what we expect to hear from a purchased CD - which were recorded at much higher setting)


.., To suggest .., that PG should 'maybe' forget about putting in the hard work to re-think & re-evaluate it's product by putting in that extra effort to move forward (even if it means "starting from now" to make everything added from this point forward to being 24 bit) ,
..., then sorry - but I would find the too much work excuse as being really-really lame .

So lame in fact, I think not moving forward would surely result in the eventual demise of BIAB , and it wouldn't be too difficult for 'another company' to come up with a far better similar superior product that could outshine BIAB , thus resulting in no more customers for PG ..., especially as how fast the technology is progressing, plus with computers being as powerful as they are now - making even the cheapest "newer computer" more than DAW Capable.

To me (IMO) .., coming up with a few more 16 bit real tracks to add to the list, and adding few colour changes etc to the BIAB GUI >>> does NOT constitute to 'moving forward' crazy

..., to me that just equates to giving your old car a wash and polish.

Meaning .., After a while no-one will care how shiny your old car will be because by then the paintwork has already dulled , and everyone in then admiring the sleeker,faster, shinier more technologically advanced model (please pardon the analogy)

IMO whistle

- if PG wants to : attract a whole new range / breed of interested customers , (ie: from real Audiophiles, to home studio DAW users through to pro producers)
- if PG wants to : 'not be seen as being stuck in the stone age' ,
- if PG wants to : keep their existing customers interested enough to want to keep re-newing to later BIAB versions
ie >> as they learn new production skills , and want to add those skills to using BIAB with a DAW to get the best results possible,

...., then BIAB needs to be (at a minimum IMO) a 64 bit operating APP with samples @ 24 bit (with dry samples option)

If the world used the "too hard excuse" then we would still be driving around in Model-T Fords (oh no .., not the car analogy again) laugh
cheers smile
The 2.5" WD My Passport Ultra Portable 4TB USB 3.0 Hard Drive is around $60 more than the current 2.5" WD My Passport Ultra Portable 2TB USB 3.0 Hard Drive that uses just over 1TB for the wav/aiff including the wma/m4a.

So fingers crossed for BB2017.
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
The 2.5" WD My Passport Ultra Portable 4TB USB 3.0 Hard Drive is around $60 more than the current 2.5" WD My Passport Ultra Portable 2TB USB 3.0 Hard Drive that uses just over 1TB for the wav/aiff including the wma/m4a.

So fingers crossed for BB2017.
$30 extra per Terabyte is good value eh .., anyone would be crazy to buy the 2TB version when that much 'bang for the buck' is on offer.

But as far as PG passing on savings , I am guessing that might depends on "how many' discs had already been purchased in preparation and when they purchased them . I have seen many stores buy up big when they thought they had seen a bargain .., only to see a massive price drop a few months later .

It certainly pays to buy small quantities of discs these days on an 'as needed basis' rather than stockpile at the rates prices keep dropping.
Well with 800 forum views that's a lot of interest, a release would have to be in the pipeline ?
Yes, I am also dreaming of a "PRO" Audiophile version as well, one clearly oriented to pro or semi-pro users, who use BIAB as a way to create tracks to be further processed in a DAW, and need maximum flexibility and quality.
More specifically:

- I would LOVE to see 24bit files, even if it's just for the newer RTs. I fully understand that for many (or most) users 16bit or 24bit makes no difference at all, but for people involved in pro or semi-pro producing, that would be a HUGE difference. I would gladly pay more for higher quality tracks. To me, this would be the one, most important request for the new editions of BIAB. I'm sure I'm not the only one smile

- Dry tracks. Again, this would also be VERY welcome, even it's not possible for all or older tracks. DI tracks are a blessing. Again, pro or semi-pro producers would definitely prefer to have tracks that are as dry as possible (I'm not talking just about reverb, I'm talking about compression, eq etc .,.).

- Drums. I'm sure it's been requested before, but to me it would be a HUGE benefit to have the drums performances separated into different tracks (kick, snare, overheads etc). Once again, pro level producing work requires some flexibility. Of course there would be leaks - leaks are fine, any producer knows hot to deal with that. Even if it's not possible for all RTs, it's fine. Even if it's not many different mics, even just 3 or 4, that's fine. Just provide whatever degree of flexibility that is available from the original recordings.

- please PG, allow a "download only" option for the Audiophine edition. It's not about the money, it's about convenience. Especially for those (like me) living in Europe or outside the US, not being able to download right away is a significant inconvenience. Pretty please? :-)

Keep up the good work guys!
If such a thing were possible, it would be excellent if it could be delivered.
+1 for 24 bit Audiophile edition.

I made the wishlist request before but was not able to properly justify the reason as I am more a beginner than professional producer / mixing engineer.
Well over 1000 views now ... :-)
Yep, we're watching with interest. It will largely depend on the actual possibility to even do this. Here's hoping.
Yes, it may not be possible for older RTs. It's totally understandable. But I'd like to reiterate that it would be a highly appreciated option (I'm talking about the 24 bit, separate drums tracks and dry tracks ideas) even if it was available only for recent RTs.
The separate drum tracks would require a significant change in the architecture. Currently, BiaB only 'theoretically' supports 8 tracks, but only one of them is used for drums. I doubt that the drum recordings are multi-track.

See this thread for more info.
You're probably right Videotrack.
However, I can imagine a scenario in which multi-track drums could be used fruitfully without a major change in BIAB's architecture (provided that the drums performance were recorded with multiple mics, which I have no idea of course).
For example, I could compose a song in BIAB and arrange it with 4 or 5 drum tracks (1 per microphone) and then 1 bass, 1 piano and 1 guitar (just to have a general idea of the arrangement). Then I could save the individual drum tracks as wav files to be imported in my DAW. Then I could go back to BIAB, save the same song with a different name, and go back to just a normal 1 stereo drum track, and use the other 7 tracks for other instruments, as we do now (and, again, export as wav files the tracks I need for my DAW project).
In other words, for users that use BIAB in order to export the wav files to be used in a DAW (and these are the kind of pro or semi-pro users who would benefit from multi-mic drums tracks) it doesn't really matter wether you have 8 or 16 tracks in BIAB, cause they're gonna export those tracks anyway to theri DAW. You can always use different versions of the same BIAB song with different instruments.
The real issue is wether the drum tracks were actually recorded with multiple mics. If not ... never mind smile

Anyway, I think that having 24 bit is more important than the multiple mic drum track option.
You can have multichannel wav or compressed RealDrum files.
In RealBand it will split to separate tracks, in Biab you can just have the mixer or in a tab.
Audacity saves to multichannel wav-compressed.





Attached picture drums mixer.jpg
Jon, I think most of us are in favor if all this could be done as a paid option.

Just background info along the lines of what VideoTrack was saying: BIAB was designed to use 16 tracks. This probably dates back to using one bank in the old MIDI standard, as BIAB was all MIDI until 2007. There are several of these 16 tracks in use, or potentially in use, that most users do not realize take up some of the 16: harmony, guitar strings, control info.

To get more tracks available for our use, several things would have to be the case: One, BIAB would have to add a second bank, presumably of 16. Two, everyone's CPU would have to be up to the task of processing even more tracks of audio. Three, BIAB should likely be 64 bit to ensure it can address enough working RAM, since all RealTracks are loaded into RAM, and 24-bit audio requires somewhat more RAM (and storage space) than 16-bit audio.
Matt,
sure, of course there's probably a ton of technical problems that I completely ignore. I fully realize that, it's just fun to talk about it smile

Only in this spirit (just to have fun, I know it's pure, baseless speculation on my part ...) it still seems to me that the problems you outline are somehow manageable.

1. in order to implement, in a useful way, multi-mic drum tracks in BIAB, you don't necessarily need more tracks than we have now. We could just use some of the tracks that now are used for instruments. Then export them as wav, go back to the song, change the drums tracks into whatever you need (bass, piano, whatever) and export again. Indeed, I do this already when I need more than 8 different RTs for the same song ... in fact, we can have an infinite number of RT for each song, as long as we export the wavs. Convienent? Of course not. Useful? Oh yes, a lot ...
And, by the way, in RealBand the track limitation is bypassed altogether (RB basically does what I do "by hand" in BIAB ... don't ask me why, I just prefer to work in BIAB. I know it's silly ...).
But the point is, again, that I dont see track number as a real limitation.
To me the real issue is wether drums tracks were actually recorded with several mics. That's where the buck stops. But that's something only the folks at PG know for sure.

2. Yes, 24 bit tracks would take more memory. However, we are not talking gigabytes. A 24bit wav file is 50% larger than a 16 bit, I beleive. A 3 min track is about 45 mb at 24 bit. You need 20 (!) of those to get to just 1 gigabyte. I don't know, I could be wrong, but nowadays that seems manageable even by most older computers running with a 32bit OS. And, by the way, if I do some serious audio work with several tracks in ANY program, not just BIAB, well, I better get at very least a 64bit OS and some good amount of RAM ... there's just no way around it. I can't blame the software companies making DAWs or program like BIAB if I don't have the very minimum tool for the job, right?

Again, I am sure there's a 1000 issues that I am not aware of smile

I agree with you and that's a good analysis. I do think it's doable as well; I just thought I would mention a few obstacles.
Multitrack drums playing in Biab:



Attached File
MultiTrack_Drums2.gif  (88 downloads)
Impressive!
You Know your stuff in BIAB Pipeline....!
Pipeline, can you please explain? Not sure I understand smile
That's just loading the tracks in Temper VST that was inserted in a midi track.

They just need to fix a few vst sync issues in Biab to get the plugin to work fully same for the ReWire VST.

Attached picture BB_Temper_Add_Tracks.jpg
Temper will adjust to full screen, you can add fx to the tracks.
You can even drag some RealTracks into Temper and have a lot more tracks.

The thing is everyone gets use to BIAB and get attached to using it but then want more and more features then it gets harder and pressed for room that things need to be crammed in to add them to the layout without rewriting a whole new Professional DAW style Pro version... but hey that could very well just be around the corner who knows ??
A version for the regular Joe/Josephine and a 64bit Pro DAW version for those Pro Audioers/Studioers.
Wait n see what Father PG brings in December.

Attached picture BB_Temper_Full2.jpg
This is the optional download sound bank you get with MusicLab's Guitars:
24-bit 96 kHz high quality dry samples recorded directly from pick-ups let you easily create any desired guitar sound using your favorite amplifier simulator.
Pipeline, that is amazing. Know, if it can work on the Mac version as well.
I'm looking for one for Mac.
You can slave Reaper to BBMac midi sync, Logic needed MTC to work, I think the same with Pro Tools ??, I couldn't find an MTC out plugin for BBMac, still looking.
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