Bar freeze / ReGen time

Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/22/19 07:09 PM

Hi Foks.
One of the biggest drawbacks for me in BIAB is slow generation times...
With editing minor things there is always a looong regeneration gaps. While sitting, lets say for 2 hours, about 30 minutes is burned to "re-generation" sweat time.

And another thing. I noticed this long ago. Depending on bars count, the musical variation of real tracks changes. Meaning, if you add or subtract bars in other places than the one in focus, you might lose the desired phrasing of RealTrack, which you were happy with prior adding/removing bars at other places.

I wrote about this request some time ago, so this is sort of a roundup of things. Request is to freeze/unfreeze bars that you are "happy with" and only re-generate bars that you are working with, not touching the rest of the stuff. In theory it should save a lot of time, because you are only regenerating small part of composition. And by freezing parts of the song, you do not have to worry that some musical things will wonder away.

Thank you.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/22/19 09:44 PM

Quote:
With editing minor things there is always a looong regeneration gaps. While sitting, lets say for 2 hours, about 30 minutes is burned to "re-generation" sweat time.

I support the idea to be able to only regenerate certain bars (+1), but am I interpreting correctly that you have generation times measured in the hours?
Posted by: balbuena

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/22/19 10:53 PM

+++1
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/22/19 11:22 PM

VideoTrack, thank you for supporting idea on partial bar freeze!

yes, it (re-generation) takes a lot of time out of my "creative" time. I like to experiment with progressions (and other features) in BIAB. As you know, to audition even a minor change, whole project is re-generated.
So figure, for each typed chord or character that takes lets say 3-5 seconds to input, there is a 10 or so seconds of wait time for regen.

P.S. My comp is 6 core / 32ram, nvme internal drive with Audiophile on it. Speed of the setup helps, but not significantly... And yes, "speed up regeneration" box is checked in BIAB. So the idea is... if you only regenerating-10-15% of the whole tune (while the rest is partially frozen), regeneration time would be much faster. Sort of getting two rabbits with one shot smile
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 02:09 AM

Thanks for clarifying.

With fast generation enabled, my system generates virtually any song (say 3 choruses of 32 bars), using 5 RealTracks in around 5 to 8 seconds. With Speed Up disabled, it is still only a few seconds longer.

Something is seriously wrong if a song takes the time that you are indicating.

Out of respect I don't wish to high-jack your thread by changing the topic, but I wonder if others might also give an indication of their generation times.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 04:22 AM

It would be good to have that in BB.
I know the BB Plugin still has a few issues that will be fixed and you maybe used to the workflow of BB but something you could try is
Guide: Using Multiple Biab Plugins this gives a lot more control to create what you need.
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 05:45 AM

Oh yes, this is a popular request that I support strongly.

But Rustyspoon, Videotrack is right; something is seriously wrong with your setup.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 06:27 AM

Videotrack,
I am talking about cumulative time. If I input 80-100 changes per "sitting" especially when working on progression, generation takes quite a bite from my time. And the request doubles as bar freeze. Because if I add/remove bars and even if I "know" how it should sound, I still have to regenerate every step, to see if the phrasing of real tracks went away in other places... So in one session about 20-25% goes to regeneration times. I would say 8-10 sec. each pressing of regen button....

My main request here is "freezing certain/selected bars" and as by-product, it might shorten regeneration time.

Pipeline, thanks for the input. Interesting thought, but far away from my workflow.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 06:31 AM

My workflow may be different to yours, but I still support the partial regeneration requirement. Incidentally, RealBand can do this.

+1, again.


Posted by: MarioD

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 07:07 AM

A BIG +1, AGAIN
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 10:04 AM

+1
Should have been implemented long ago!
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 07/23/19 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Videotrack,
I am talking about cumulative time. If I input 80-100 changes per "sitting" especially when working on progression, generation takes quite a bite from my time. And the request doubles as bar freeze. Because if I add/remove bars and even if I "know" how it should sound, I still have to regenerate every step, to see if the phrasing of real tracks went away in other places... So in one session about 20-25% goes to regeneration times. I would say 8-10 sec. each pressing of regen button....

...


Oh, that's better. Thanks for clarifying.
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 08/08/19 08:20 AM

Two easy solutions to this.

1. If you have a complex song that you're experimenting with use a midi style to start. Midi generates basically instantly. Once you've gotten the arrangement down, the song form, added or modified a tag ending, whatever it is you want to do to the song then go back to your RT style. Or...

2. Use the right tool for the job which is Real Band. Why do you think RB is included in the first place? This is one of the exact reasons RB was created to be able to regen parts of a song, parts of a single track, use multiple tracks to create comps of the same part using different versions of the same instrument or using a different style per track if you want.

It's the same reason a carpenter has a Skill saw, a table saw, a reciprocating saw and who knows what other saws. Different tools for different jobs. There is no one "universal tool" that does it all in music production or anything else. RB does everything you've asked about plus gives you 48 tracks to experiment with. That should be enough.

Bob
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 08/14/19 06:35 AM

Jazzmammal... You are correct there are many "different tools"... And I am requesting the one that will work for me, and that I believe should be available in the BIAB workflow.

You are right, there are many workaround "approaches", however I do not see RB as a part of my future. I believe RB was a big mistake that was not corrected in time, but that is another topic.

Not trying to sound negative here, but trying to look at it realistically. I do like what I can do with BIAB, but I believe certain things would make it a much better program. And...I am hopeful that at least some percentage of items in the BIAB "Wishlist" will be implemented in the future release(s).


My request still stands smile
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 08/14/19 07:42 AM

<< My request still stands >>

Plus 1 from me too. It's a request that's been around a long time and asked by many.

However, "Not trying to sound negative here, but trying to look at it realistically," the reality is what you want to do is easy to do in BIAB as the program is now, the methods are not workarounds but how the program was structured many years ago prior to the the existence of huge amount of 'free tracks' and DAW editing power that's common today. It's how song construction is done in BIAB and based loosely on studio multi track practices of that time period.

Many, if not most, long time, seasoned users of BIAB have posted and still post today that BIAB is limited to 7 channels and a single audio track. The truth is one can construct and render a song totally within BIAB of 70 instruments and 20 tracks in less than 10 minutes including multiple audio tracks. Those are true but not firm numbers. You could double that count or half it in a few more minutes. I estimate 97% of RealStyles follow that same 7/1 structure with only a few having the medley instruments feature included in the Style or contain Artist performance tracks.

In the 2019 version, PGMusic programmers added some additional Styles and re-introduced some features and added a few features to introduce and re-introduce the concept to all BIAB users. I don't think anyone has posted a song using the method in the User's Showcase. I've been doing the songs I've posted for the last few years utilizing these features and completing my songs solely within a single BIAB project.

The issue for you and most others is the 'wish' itself not the capability of BIAB. Your statement;"I am requesting the one that will work for me, and that I believe should be available in the BIAB workflow." is simply requesting BIAB adapt to your personal workflow rather than you adapt your workflow to BIAB's existing capabilities.

To date, your wish is the prevailing mindset of BIAB users, new and old alike. The existing way, (strongly established and far superior to what you and others are 'wishing' for) hasn't gained any traction at all, not being widely known or accepted.

I'd like to see some at least try to use BIAB as designed, but the motivation isn't there so I'll go with the majority and support your request.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 08/14/19 08:05 AM

I've already supported, but I believe this still needs a push, so another +1 from me.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Bar freeze / ReGen time - 08/14/19 04:48 PM

Charlie,
I get what you are saying. Sure, I can output WAV files for every track with each "change" to preserve certain elements and slice and dice them in DAW...To me it is mostly about the time... which unfortunately I have too little for my music adventures.

I do realize, that BIAB has amazing potential as it stands and is packed with features. However, BIAB is a "SOFTware" and not hardware, so there is always "room" for improvement in workflow and other good things smile