Up to this version, biab only knows 7 chords. Yes, seven. It displays all kinds of chords, but can’t play them. If you notate C7b9, biab stubbornly plays a natural 9. Biab only knows 7 chords *Maj7 *7 *7sus4 *m7b5 *9/13 *m7 *Dim Korg, Yamaha, Wersi are quite literate at playing chords. They know b9, mMaj7 You might say... you, sir, are wrong! Biab knows all the chords. It’s like Guitar George. Except, it isn’t guitar George. Take a random walking bass style with 9ths and thirteenths and all. Now, open the chord view, enter chords like C7susb9 or CmMaj7 or C7#9. Put the B-part marker. Check if the accompaniment sounds right. Well, it doesn’t. You can enter the chords, but your band won’t play them right.
You might say... Tweak the settings, ignoramus: Jazz up the chords or turn off natural arrangement. Well, that won’t work, either. There’ll be some changes, but Biab still ignores b9 or #9 or mMaj7. It’s easy to check. Type in random “interesting” chords and watch Biab ignore all the extensions and alterations.
You might say... In styles you have the option of playing certain alterations when moving up a fourth to a min chord. That’s cool, but a lot of more interesting music has alterations on chords not moving up a 4th. Check out Fall or Infant Eyes (Wayne Shorter) That leaves us with Biab not knowing basic chords. The mMaj7 is a big one, Chelsea Bridge, an Ellington staple by the great Billy Strayhorn You might say... Using the right slash chord will give you the right notes. . A lot of discussion went on, on other parts of the forum. Believe me, it won’t work. You might say... It doesn’t really matter. Bass players and pianists are often playing just the stock chords. For one, this statement is not true at all: check out the aebersold records. Bassists, guitarists and piano players play the right extensions and interprete freely, adding sus chords or dim chords to spice it all up. You might say... Biab should have to know all the harmonic rules, that’s impossible Here, you are right! We shouldn’t let rules or software determine the chord’s extensions. The chords should be properly entered (don’t just put C7 if you want #9, for instance) and that’s our job. And then the software should play what we entered. It would help us check out different chord alterations to spice up the music. You might say... Move to Yamaha if you like it so much... Well, thing is, Biab is still a great tool. You can make your own styles, there are a lot of good styles to be had (including “factory” made), Biab has an easy way of arranging the music with pushes and holds, with the conductor window, it displays the melody with chords above in reasonably good notation. The loop function is sometimes quirky, but works, the vst support is finally improving. And, let’s face it, we all just love our biab! You might say... that would mean changing all those real tracks.. I’m only talking midi here. With the right vst midi sounds killer
I might say If you just want midi and to be able to enter "Any" chord then you could use RapidComposer as a standalone or as a vst in Biab. Biab-RapidComposer-Ample Bass Win/Mac Video Demo
I might say You could use Studio One Chords from Biab Plugin then move the tracks in and make them follow the chord track as Melodyne will correct the chords in the tracks (though not sure how many chords it has).
As you say midi would be the way as you would need hours n hours of realtrack recordings to cover George's chords even though it's strictly rhythm. You can create a UserTrack with all the chords and see if it plays the corresponding chord or substitutes for another, but as I just recall it maybe still a bit screwed up that way.
He Pipeline, thx, man George plays strictly rhythm, it’s up to us to make it cry, innit?
Studio One and Rapid Composer perform some great tricks, but I need the chord sheet (preferrably even lead sheet) to play. Nevertheless, wonderful complex workarounds. And some great sounds right there! Good vibe, amazing bassline.
Btw, I don’t believe in the AI-technology and randomizers. They got it all wrong. Impro-visor tried to decipher Monk and Parker using probabilities performed on intervals and stuff. The result is not as good as the biab-soloist who just relies on patterns linked to chords. If only biab knew more chords. I see no lack of variation in the styles, as long as there is some material there. It’s just that Biab is tone deaf.
Nothing fancy btw, in these chords. Every jazz song since the fifties uses melodic minor and diminished harmony. All of which Biab is ignorant of.
Have disengaged "Natural Arrangements" when trying the above chords. This gives BIAB license to change chords entered. I always leave it off because I want my chords to play as written.
...and rightly so. But even then: no mMaj7, no flat or sharp nine chords. Bottom line is, it’s not that Biab doesn’t read the chords or doesn’t want to show them. It just doesn’t play the right notes. It doesn’t play as written, it ignores your writing like the tone deaf neighbour bass-player who just doesn’t get it. It’s like a campfire guitarist would accompany Miles or Wes or Sonny, let alone Trane, Akinmusire, Redman. It would make ‘em sound bad.
choose instrument in mixer block to the right click a chord instrument choose track setting choose : Set natural arrangement. Click : Disabled for (x)chord instrument Repeat procedure on next chord instrument Good luck
but, trust me, Natural arrangement has nothing to do with it.
You can leave it on or switch it off, per instrument, in global settings.
The thing is, Biab only knows 7 chords.
A typical chord progression to test is CmMaj7 (it will play b7) C7b9 (it will play natural 9!) C7#9 (it switches between dorian: 12b3456b7 and mixolydian, a natural 9)
A typical style to test it is: dizzy jazz or bebop
Biab is very limited and it’s hard to see this after more than 20 years of updates.
Tricky Chords: C5b This is “C flat 5.” It is spelled this way to avoid confusion. C2, C5, C4, C69, C7alt, Cm7#5 You can type C-7 for Cm7 (i.e. use the minus sign) or C7-9 for C7b9.
But you're saying only seven of the 124 chords listed actually work? I kind of find that hard to believe. I guess I'll have a little work to do this weekend if I can find the time.
I understand exactly where you're coming from but...it will play a #9, I just tested it and I've heard it many times but it does depend on the style. For the b9 use the slash bass like an Edim/C for the C7b9. That does work reasonably well.
Still, the vast majority of Biab users have no idea of what you're talking about. Monk, Dizz, Trane? Never heard of them. The reason the Real Tracks became so incredibly popular is most can't spell midi much less understand how to use it. And that's fine, they don't need to use it when the RT's sound awesome and are truly very easy to use. The RT's are the big deal now and like Pipeline said, to have the artists record all those extensions would really be difficult given studio time costs, file size restrictions and the like.
Consider this, it's not just the chord names themselves, it's the voicings. I don't have to tell you you can voice a b13 all kinds of ways on a piano. How is Biab supposed to handle that? The different voicings alone would require a RT player to record the same chord name 3 or 4 times on a guitar or keyboard. If it's a midi style, how do you weight that? Based on what? Use a different voicing every bar, every two bars or what? Randomize it? We already know how well that works. There's only so much you can ask a computer to do with high level jazz.
Those 7 chords (more with slash bass tricks) cover probably 95% of all popular music done in the last 50 years including Real Book standards like Ipanema, Misty, Embraceable You, etc. For the vast majority of users who care about those tunes Biab does a pretty good job. Yes, I'm well aware the Real Books are dumbed down, it's up to the players to do it right and I've written about that before. You're an educated jazzer and I get it but that's not the market PGM is going for.
Bebop has always had a limited audience even when it was current. Nobody was playing it at a private corporate function or a yacht club 50 years ago and certainly not now. And bars and pubs? Forget it. Here in SoCal, my jazz gigs started drying up 20 years ago and even then we were doing more funky fusion than bebop although we did some of it. Frankly it bores me because most players especially horn guys just play those transcribed Charlie Parker lines over and over and over...They're not really soloing.
To be correct: biab only knows 7 7th chords. Seven seventh chords, that is, It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff. Beyond 7th chords, namely 9ths or 13s and its’ alterations or #11’s are “unbeknownst” to biab. And inside 7th chords, it forgot to be able to play mMaj7!
It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff.
OK, that is a better.
Now, where you are going is a bit like the story of the emperors new clothes". Clearly we are not talking RealTracks, but I am a little disappointed that you are suggesting the MIDI is not support/playing many of these - but not surprised if this is true. As I mentioned in the other tread, my ears and my needs found other ways to tweak midi chords outside of BIAB years ago.
To be correct: biab only knows 7 7th chords. Seven seventh chords, that is, It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff. Beyond 7th chords, namely 9ths or 13s and its’ alterations or #11’s are “unbeknownst” to biab. And inside 7th chords, it forgot to be able to play mMaj7!
Triads only?? No, that's not correct at all. It does Maj 7ths fine, it does minor 7ths with the 3rd and 5th fine too and a #9 no problem either. Are you ONLY using 2 jazz styles? Here are four screen shots the first two are the Modern Jazz midi style with piano and the next two are the New York Jazz RT style with piano. Lots of variations with 4, 5 and even 7 note chords. I didn't bother with the m7 chords, they're similar, not just triads.
What's cool (or not) depending is the C7#9 midi one. It's throwing all kinds of accidentals in there, a b13, the b9, the #9, depending on if I used the a Substyle or b substyle I got a descending line from Ab, A to G. Lots of interesting stuff because it's a modern jazz style not the plain zzjazz one that's simpler.
It's hard to put text into the same post as these attachments. The 3rd one is the same RT style as the last one. The last one is the #9 RT and it's pretty complex, lots of movement between both hands on the piano there and it's hard to read because of all the accidentals but it is based on the #9 chord.
You still make some good points about other chords but you can't say it's all dominant 7 triads. With the thousands of styles and all the variations it's impossible to come up with examples of everything but I think you need to dig in a little deeper.
I think what this boils down to is you want Biab to play exactly what you input and that just doesn't happen. In the -JazMod+ style it's giving you a 7b9 for example but it's part of a lot of movement just like a real pianist would do but is it a pure 7b9? No because I entered a #9 which if that is what you wanted you also got that along with everything else.
All I can say about that is that's what Biab does, it's what it's designed to do. If you want exact then you have to use other programs like Pipeline pointed out.
@ Jazzmammal, I specifically clarified that biab knows 7 7th chords and wrote down which ones. If you want to criticize, please, do me and yourself the courtesy of checking.
I never said Biab only knew triads, I specified which 7thchords it knows (apart from triads, which I am not going to discuss) I clearly stated I was talking about midi styles. Rt is off topic. You proved my point that Biab doesn’t play the written chord. If it says b9, a player would occasionally play #9, it fits. But I do not have to show how every walking bass style ignores b9 and plays natural 9 instead, which is not juggling the changes, it’s just plain wrong. Please, go listen to the aebersolds. If it says b9 bass and piano play an altered 9, never, ever a natural 9, Same goes with mMaj7. Players play major 7th, not the flatted 7. It makes you sound more modern (well. More fifties than thirties) In your second example you can clearly see the natural 9 in the second and third bar. There is NO natural 9 in a #9 chord.
You have every right to defend the product you love, but, I’d love it if you stayed on topic. This way the debate is getting all toxic and personal. Your discouragement about the diminishing succes of the jazz world doesn’t mean biab shouldn’t be able to play chords Roland, Yamaha and Wersi all know.
You could understand with the RealTracks and the 12key ones now that file size is a limitation so substitution is used, but with MIDI there's no issues with file size so they should try to cover more chords in the recordings especially for Jazz. Even if you had an option in BB to snap midi to chord/scale notes would help.
I suggested a guide for manual snapping or an option to Snap Selected Notes to chord/scale, that could have a different color shade for root, chord, scale, out or passing note. There could maybe an option to duplicate notes from existing chord notes for missing chord notes as you would do manually.
Ha, I was going to reply by pointing out some more things but guess what? Forget that. I just learned something that I've read about but never done. I had tried to write in a CmMaj7 and it wouldn't take it so what I did was right click in the chord box and check Chord Builder. In that window look in the upper left quadrant and in column 6 see the mMaj7. If you already have a C chord in the chord grid then the first column for Root already says C but if you didn't enter anything you would put the root in there first.
In the right hand quadrant there's a box that says Enter CmMaj7, hit that and voila there it is and it's spelled out CmMaj7 even though I tried to manually type it in just like that and it wouldn't take it. When I played it back the piano stayed right with that chord, no variations including when I used the substyle part markers. I also tried two other chord extensions and it was the same. The piano just stayed there, maybe that's the ticket but I won't know until I do some experimenting. Here's the screenshot:
Ha, I was going to reply by pointing out some more things but guess what? Forget that. I just learned something that I've read about but never done. I had tried to write in a CmMaj7 and it wouldn't take it so what I did was right click in the chord box and check Chord Builder. In that window look in the upper left quadrant and in column 6 see the mMaj7. If you already have a C chord in the chord grid then the first column for Root already says C but if you didn't enter anything you would put the root in there first.
In the right hand quadrant there's a box that says Enter CmMaj7, hit that and voila there it is and it's spelled out CmMaj7 even though I tried to manually type it in just like that and it wouldn't take it. When I played it back the piano stayed right with that chord, no variations including when I used the substyle part markers. I also tried two other chord extensions and it was the same. The piano just stayed there, maybe that's the ticket but I won't know until I do some experimenting. Here's the screenshot:
This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast.
This is good Jan, you caught me on a day when I have time to mess around with this and I'm learning some new stuff. This time I added another 12 bars of some other chord extensions plus I tried a Weather Report style. The first screen shot is those chords using the same zzjazz style and you can see the chords are exactly how I wrote them. Then the next screenshot is using the -jazmjd style. This is completely different. Both shots are the keyboard track. As you can see the Weather Report style is what you might expect, lots of lines and different rhythms but still, the chords are there.
This shows what a huge difference maker the Stylemaker is. I opened up the Stylemaker and studied it a bit because I've not done much with it for years. You see the A subsyle, the B substyle and all the instruments. For the chording instruments you open up the notation window and write in whatever exact lines you want and whatever chord voicings you want for the patterns. Want the exact bass line from Chameleon? Write it in. What the piano riff from Take 5? Write it in. Those are just the lines, you can create groove patterns too. It's here where you tell Biab how to handle these chords I think. The Help window under Style Options talks about the weighting. The higher number makes it pretty much static, exactly how you wrote it, lower numbers adds more randomization. Of course if you write a style for one exact song that style is probably only good for that song. The Biab "factory" styles are more generic, they'll work with many different songs but then of course, not exact licks or voicings.
Maybe using the Chord Builder helps with that too, not sure. Anyway here's the screenshots:
On just the topic of mMaj7 chords, I use this chord type all the time in Brazilian jazz. It has always worked correctly for many years.
In the very early days of RealTracks, however, I would sometimes have a piano part simply drop out on this chord, but when I reported it, a patch was issued.
About the other issues raised, I have some testing to do before commenting further. I am skeptical about some of what I’ve read.
This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast.
Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord.
If we would treat the “mother” chord for stylemaker as mixolydian, then you could easily define all chords that biab displays as some alteration of the mother chord. We would have to treat mixolydian as Herbie Hancock does in Maiden Voyage: all the scale notes are possible! (As Marl Levine points out in the Jazz Piano Book) The only things to watch out for are the (real) avoid notes: the third for sus chords and for phrygian, the b6 in minor chords, the unaltered 4th in major. Passing tones could be macro notes: if next note is a whole step up, then insert chromatic below... if next note is a half step above, then insert chromatic (or scale tone) above the next tone. What to do with “out” notes? I wouldn’t know. There’s only three scales (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor) and two symmetrical scales to consider. And in harmonic and melodic minor a few of the modes aren’t really used.
I can’t see any chord in biab’s chord list not fitting the 21 possible scale chords (three most important scales) or the 2 symmetrical ones.
As long as bass and piano/guitar stick to scale tones and passing tones, you should be good. If you really want a specific voicing, use midi. So, if on C7alt the bass plays b9 or #9, that’s not really important. It fits the scale of the moment.
You could add the augmented scale, but I truly believe it’s not a scale that is used in composing, as much as it is an improvisational thing.
Thx for the reply and your wonderful work on reaper plugin.
The bass player is illiterate, plays b7 on mMaj7, a natural 9 on a b9 chord... The piano player is often right!
As Jazzmammal suggested, there is something with the styles. If you pick any style, the bass part only knows 7 seventh chords! But, in some styles, the piano player is like Guitar George: he knows all the chords.
So, where can we find the culprit? The riff option In some styles, where the piano player “nails” it, you could see that the “riff” option is checked. File>Stylemaker>Edit current Style In stylemaker: Style>Misc. Settings check the box that says “Riff” voicing type uses chord tones.
The pop up text goes like this: Riff voicing is an option... To do a simple transpose (ignoring chord type) deselect this. (!?&#€”****).
More important: guitar and piano MACRO NOTES If the guitar and piano are getting it right... check the style patterns. They were made using MACRO notes. These play the chords nicely and are not confined to seven 7th chords!
Still... the bass player is not affected by this setting. Since most styles have simple bass lines (root and 5th) it goes unnoticed. But some nice walking bass lines reveal the tone deafness of the bass part. To the point of clashing regularly with the piano and guitar part!
Just for fun, let me ask another question. DZjang, is your BIAB up to date?
Within the last year there was an update to RealTracks that fixed a number of instances of the bass not playing slash roots. I don't know what else may have been changed, so I'm just checking if you are running the latest. I didn't see this mentioned. Thanks.
This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast.
Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord.
Bob
I just inputted CmMaj7 and Cmmaj7. When I typed Cmmaj7 is showed up on the chord sheet as CmMaj7! However in both cases the correct chord was played.
I have used CmMaj7 many times with no problems. YMMV
If anyone wants to know how bad the midi styles work.
Here’s an easy one
Make a new style Every note has to fit C7, says Pgmusic.
Ok, let.s make bass notes root 5-b7-9 and reverse but starting on the root: so: root-(up)9-(downward from here)-b7-5 Make at least one 8 beats-pattern, one 4 beats, two beats, one beat is too short... Do the same with B-part
Enter some piano,chords. Let’s say, rootless Bill Evans, old but not stale. Play 3-b7 in your left and 2-5 in your right hand and switch it up a little.you can click them on the staff or record them, keep it simple. Do the same for the 4 beat, 2 beat patterns, make at least one pattern here and Do the same for B
Enter a strings arpeggio: mix the notes of “root-3-5-b7-9”. Make it musical, but stick to these notes.
Save your style as r2357 or a name like that.
Make a lead sheet with the following chords:
Cmaj7 (2 bars, 1 bar, 1 bar) CmMaj7 (same, you can change it if you like to 1 bar, 2 bars, 1 bar) C13b9 (same) C7alt
Listen closely to what biab presents to you. You will see that bass AND piano part play a bunch of downright wrong notes. It will make you rather sad, possibly angry.
Now do the same lead sheet with dizzy style or a bebop walking bass style. You’ll see a different pattern. The bass player plays a lot of wrong notes, but the piano player does a great job. If you check the style maker you won’t see voicings but singlenotes: MACRO NOTES.
I ve learned a lot by trying all of this.
And I remain truly disappointed in biab, a software I have been using and buying and LOVING since the nineties.
Though the realtracks are often sublime (though more than a little old fashioned, as if Kind Of Blue was the last jazz record...), I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed. Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed.
... snip ... I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed. Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed.
I agree 100 percent. PG Music had not paid much attention to midi lately however 35 new midi styles were released with +++ Xtra Styles PAK # 5 +++ in July, 2018.
One of the strengths of Band-in-a-Box is it allows you to work with audio, midi and loops in addition to it's collection of styles, RealTracks and Super Midi Tracks.
A bit lost by the recent treads but I love the midi-love being expressed.
To my understanding the ability to play chord extensions is related to the midi-style selected. Piano and guitar can play the many extensions accurately only if the style includes Chord Notes. However, this option is not available for bass or the other non-chordal instruments. Does that summarize the current findings?
So Dzjang can you restate the wish? What exactly do you want BIAB to do?
Hey Musicstudent, for piano and guitar, you don’t input notes in the style maker, but Macro Notes. Each of these macro notes refer to a playing style: for guitar it’s fast or slow strumming, rootless voicings or other.
This, of course limits the possibilities for the piano and guitar also. If you would like piano or guitar play only two notes, or an arpeggiated groove, that won’t work.
To summarize
Dear PGMusic
Could you please update the stylemaker or the style-machine so that styles can play all the chords that Biab can input on the chord window?
Best regards,
Jan PS: open up the input on guitar, piano, strings et al... to include scale or chord based input. Limiting stylemakers to using macro notes is limiting. PPS: users go through great lengths to input correct chords or buy packs like the New Real Books by Norton... at this time the Bass part is wrong (if the style includes 9ths and 7ths, like on RnB or jazz styles) if your song contains chords with altered ninths, mMaj7. NRB’s 1-2-3 are filled with intricate chords and this helps you progress as a player. Please, make it sound right.
Really nice detective work Jan. I knew this was related to the styles but I've never investigated exactly how that works. The Stylemaker has been available forever but I can name maybe 3 people who understand it and one of those is Bob Norton and another was Mac who hasn't posted here for 3-4 years. Otherwise nobody writes about it, it's probably the single most underused part of the program. Everybody simply uses the styles given to us and that's the end of it.
If these changes to the Stylemaker can be done and then applied to existing styles then by all means it should be done. Sadly, there's only a few midi jazz styles anyway, it should not be that hard to do.
Don't really understand all of this and don't really want to get into deep programming of BIAB. But I am impressed with the content in this thread and very interested in where it can go.
Since there has been some debate over the (in)ability of Biab to correctly play jazz chords in midi styles... I now want to add some proof of the absurd and disturbing mistakes (bugs?) biab makes.
To avoid needless discussion: I disabled “natural arrangement” in Preferences/Arrangement I turned off “simple bass” in Overrides For each instrument I turned off natural arrangement and embellishment Please, if you want to debate harmony.... Check if you’re familiar with diminished harmony or every mode of melodic minor or you know the difference between phrygian and phrygian natural 13. If you’re not familiar with it, that’s cool, but this discussion is really intended for intermediate or advanced players who like to practice and improve their playing. No offense.
So, why do I care? Biab could be the best tool to learn to reharmonize tunes. As the midi style player works today, it is really bad for practicing and improving your playing. Biab has potential for learning and teaching. Say you want to substitute II-V with Vsus4b9 (jazz piano book)... for now, biab doesn’t have the harmonic sophistication and just plays wrong. This makes the student uneasy and is unhelpful. It makes you sound bad even if you are right.
Alternatives? Yamaha arrangers are the closest to “perfect” for amateur jazz musicians or students, harmony-wise. Since it has no notation or chord player like in Biab and it is really geared towards left hand harmony input (one touch chords...), it is not as good. Imagine being a trumpet player and freeing your left hand to play all the changes... None of the other softwares really know sus4b9. At least, biab gets it right sometimes.
Question on the first example link: In the third measure of the B part, the first example marked in red, I'm guessing that the error is BIAB thinking that the Bb half note in the bass clef carries the accidental over into beat four of the treble clef.
If it's music for one player, not a score of independently-played parts, some authors of music notation guidelines believe the accidental can carry between clefs to a note of the same pitch in the other clef, which this is. Still, I would prefer to see a flat or a cautionary accidental of a flat in the treble clef.
Question on the first example link: In the third measure of the B part, the first example marked in red, I'm guessing that the error is BIAB thinking that the Bb half note in the bass clef carries the accidental over into beat four of the treble clef.
Yes, I saw that and wondered the same thing. I agree that there's a possibility that the program identifies that the Bb has been handled for that specific note, but if that's the case, it should be shown as an accidental in the treble clef also.
You are both right! In this case it doesn’t correspond to what I heard. Your reasoning, being that the accidental got carried over, is correct. And indeed confusing,
Thx to Videotrack for shaming me by adding a neat blue arrow with a subtle shadow on top of my chaotic writing,
Matt turned me on to the idea that Biab does play elaborate chords in Brazilian jazz. Lo and behold, styles like Janeiro do! Or at least, the piano does. Guitar and bass are only limited to bread and butter chords. There are clashes to be heard.
Investigating further has taught me this: Midi only, spoken here! 1. Older styles: all instruments know only a limited number of bread and butter chords, no mMaj7, no b9, b13 2. Newer styles (Janeiro...): piano plays all the chords right. All other instruments play only limited number of chords right... 3. Self-made styles from midi are like Older styles: all the wrong notes in elaborate chords Conclusion *only the piano can -in some cases- play all the chords. *there is an algorithm somewhere in Band in a Box that knows all the chords... *...but it is only used for piano for some styles starting 2011 or so.
Now... if there is an algorithm that works, how can it be applied to bass, guitar and other instruments?
You're bringing up some good points and really pinpointing some areas of improvement. I appreciate that and thank you for your thoughtfulness and dedication.
One question if I may, while acknowledging the limitations you've highlighted, if the limitations were fixed how would those corrections help the audio I hear? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand if the issues has more affect on notation or the audio playback.
Audio-wise, I think this will prove to be a huge relief for some. As things are now, there are subtle and not so subtle clashes between bass and piano, piano and guitar or your interpretation as soloist and the accompaniment.
Thing is, most people won’t hear it as a mistake, but just a rubbing sensation that “something is wrong”, but you can’t put your finger on it.
On the other hand. If people use unaltered chords and mostly triads, there will be no real change. It’s for the speciall chords, mostly used in jazz, Joni Mitchell, Michael Franks, James Taylor and some alternative or indie Country or rock,
Thank you for taking time to provide your considered response.
This was the sentence that most helped me to understand your point of view:
Quote:
Thing is, most people won’t hear it as a mistake, but just a rubbing sensation that “something is wrong”, but you can’t put your finger on it.
I have that "something's wrong" feeling more than once but have always discounted it. Invariably, when I get the feeling it is with an music exercise or song that I end up disliking and don't know why. Perhaps this dissonance between the instrument tracks is part of the answer.
You've definitely given me some ideas to think about.
I'm trying to understand if the issues has more affect on notation or the audio playback.
If it's in the notation, it's in the audio. If it isn't then that's a bug.
I totally appreciate wishing this gets cleaned up too but there are less and less of us who care. There was a recent thread asking about how Biab can be made to generate modern pop music. Very little of that has extended chords and neither does modern country.
15 years ago Biab was something like 70-75% jazz oriented. Then came the introduction of Real Tracks and that attracted tons of rock/country/folk guitarists and they requested all of that sort of stuff. Just look at all the guitar and related stringed instruments RT's now.
Electrics, acoustics,6 string, 12 string, steel string, nylon string, pedal steel, dobro, banjo, resonator, I can't even list them all. There's a bunch of accordians, bouzoukies and fiddles! There's tons of fiddles and pages and pages and pages of guitars. It's like 20 to 1 (or more) of those RT's vs new jazz RT's.
The RT's transformed the company by attracting all these guitar players. Midi can be good but one thing it's not good for is guitar and the guitar and related RT's sound awesome. I think they were surprised because the RT's started with a lot of jazz but that changed in a hurry. Great for PG and I'm happy for them but not so good for us jazzers.
... snip I think they were surprised because the RT's started with a lot of jazz but that changed in a hurry. Great for PG and I'm happy for them but not so good for us jazzers. Bob
Bob, the thought above brought a smile to my face. RealTracks Set #1 has no name but includes pedal steel, tenor sax and acoustic guitar. Set # 2 is named "Country Ballad", 3 is "Swingin' Country", 4 is "Modern Country" and so on. It's not until set 7 that you encounter "Acoustic Jazz Bass and Rock Sax".
Judging from the RealTrack set names I'd say PG Music had an idea country and rock RealTracks would be more popular than jazz tracks. Of course as many users have discovered RealTracks named for one genre can be used in other genres.
Jan (Dzjang) was kind enough to acknowledge my point that some of what he has carefully reported may not always be true and bears more examination, like the mMaj7. All white cats with blue eyes are deaf. Well, most are, but not every one.
Let me do the same and acknowledge that a great deal of what he has said is true and I don't mean to lose sight of any of that. I DO hear those 'clashes' and I DO think 'something is wrong'. But I also tend to overlook it, as this is pretty common in live jazz playing with both a guitar and a piano on the gig. I kind of enjoy it and as a jazz player am not put off by it. At the same time, I recognize someone using any style that is slightly jazzy but desiring a more 'straight' rendering could be confused and put off by the resulting sound. No question about it.
And the bass player is often the one I question, just as Jan said.
All this, like Natural Arrangement, involves algorithms we don't understand. We probably never will, as they are almost certainly proprietary. I can live with that, but some comment from the developers would be welcomed. In the meantime, we can keep making clear and respectful posts detailing the issues. When something crosses over into being likely a real bug, and we're pretty sure about that, then some of us can report it directly to the developers.
I came into this thread because of wanting mMaj7 chords with RealTracks. I see it's a bit of an old thread, and I'm only 2 weeks into using BiaB. But to distill some of the detail down, I did turn off Natural Arrangements for this song, and voila - exactly what I wanted with RealTracks!
For the sake of clarity: natural arrangement or disabled, in MIDI... it does not matter. No mMaj7 on the bass part. Which is so sad (Chelsea Bridge, Strayhorn’s great tune, a lot of Horace Silver or Bill Evans stuff) because modern jazz asks for these chords.
Even Jazz Realtracks have a limited number of chords: most of them don’t play the phrygian chord correctly, some miss out on the mMaj7, some play it correctly, there’s not always a Cmaj7#5 chord or a decent modern lydian chord, Aeolian gets played with a natural 6. I could give examples, but I already gave up on Realstyles. Only works on pre-Coltrane, pre-Shorter, pre-Hancock jazz. And does a great job at playing that music.
By the way: most midi styles have all the above problems and only play 7 chord types, but on some styles the piano gets it right, while the bass plays it wrong. After experimenting I noticed that if you put the bass part in the piano part of some styles, it plays all the chords right! So, the hilarious thing is: Biab only plays seven chord types, but there is an algorithm there that CAN translate the style parts to ALL the different chord types
But, you’re stuck with a tone deaf bass player!
Weird, or what? But, that being said. It’s a mystery why they can’t apply the same algorithm to all parts of the style. That alone would help all serious musicians play Weather Report, Jarrett, the Bill Evans changes, Wayne Shorter tunes, Ecm jazz, Marsalis, Kirkland, Metheny...
An example of what’s sad: you can buy all the realbooks for Biab at Norton Music. It’s done with great care, even has all the accents, holds and pushes and all the reharmonizations that are listed, like in The New Real Books. But Biab messes it up. That’s sad. If Biab could play it all decently (and it has got the algorithm), it would enable us to really learn harmony, to experiment with chord substitution.
Except, it doesn’t! It makes all the tunes sound old fashioned.
Take the Jazz Piano book: by Mark Levine: the susb9 (phrygian) chord. That would be nice to experiment with. Or the B/C chord as a reharmonization of the I chord in minor (or in major if you want)... we could use Biab to help us study the music better.
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if it's already been said, but BiaB will certainly recognise most of these chords - just press shift+enter to listen. I can clearly hear those jazzy extensions.
Whether the particular MIDI or RT style will accommodate it, though, is another story, and I do sometimes find that I can't get the particular chord I want with the particular style I want, but I assume that PG Music do have limited time and resources so they probably don't bother recording a 7sus#5#9 for a pop RealTrack (or program it for a pop MIDI track).
When I can't get a fancy chord working on one of my bebop/modal/etc RealTracks, however, that can be frustrating!
Mike and Jan, I will just repeat from a very early comment that you can report a 'missing' chord and I've done so and so should you. A patch may fix it.
As I mentioned, in the early days of RealTracks, the piano would simply drop out if I wrote mMaj7. They fixed it. I don't know if this means they changed some index value somewhere, or brought back the performer to record that chord in all keys. I suspect it's the index based on two things: 1) they fixed it right away and 2) I think I recall they said something about an index (I'm trying to remember this well over a decade later).
As far as the stylemaker, I looked at that about twenty years ago and balked (and I was a college programming professor). Perhaps I'll find some time to look again.
Bass only knows 7 7th chords and triads, but none of the fancy chords or alterations. In a limited number of midi styles Guitar and Piano play all chords correctly, which clashes with the bass sadly.
I had a PM conversation with Peter Gannon, where I showed him notation examples of the obvious mistakes and the absurd situation where piano plays the right chords and the bass doesn’t. He stressed that “most” jazz can be played by BIAB and urged me to steer clear of elaborate chords.
Leaves us with reharmonization chords, that don’t sound good and alternative changes (Bill Evans reharms in New Real Book) that don’t work. Marsalis tunes and Joey Calderazzo tunes, Fred Hersch songs often use chords that Biab doesn’t know (phrygian chord...). And Wayne Shorter tunes, the Bass never plays 13b9 chords right.
I truly think PGMusic is not really interested in making their midi styles work properly or their Realstyles play all the chords. Most musicians who use BIAB don’t really know much about harmony, I’ve come to learn. There are forums where musicians are really into harmony (jazzguitar.be) and some are quite literate, but I think most PGmusic users never got past Chapter 1 of the Levine jazz piano book or the jazz harmony book. Ii-v’s and triads rule.
And that’s cool. Leaves most serious jazz amateurs in the cold, but, hey, PGmusic is a succesful company and that proves they are right in their approach. Hope Bandora or Jjazzlab step up for us,
I've read the Mark Levine jazz piano book. Extraordinary stuff. But I've also come under criticism here for believing music notation is important. Such is the wide range of users.
As a workaround, when I don't like what a bass is playing, I copy the bass track to the Soloist and edit it, then use F5 to mute tracks as needed.
Thank you for the detailed research you have done to see what's under the hood.
Notation is such a wonderful feature of BIAB and Realband. No other system of accompaniment has this covered.
BIAB is full of flaws, but taking everything in consideration it is still my favorite over Bandora, iReal, Yamaha, V-arranger, Impro-visor, Jjazzlab...
Btw: copying the bass and tweaking it in soloist... never thought of that as a workaround. Pianoroll, I guess. Select all, copy. You could change notes in notation, velocity in the pianoroll. I am going to use this, great idea.
I may not have been clear so let me try again just in case.
I meant copying the bass track to the Soloist track. This track is editable and is one of the two that is not regenerated. Then I mute/unmute the bass and the Soloist tracks as needed.
In other words, I did not mean the Soloist function in BIAB. I've never used that because that's what I do - record jazz solos and arrangements on people's CDs.
I almost hear you sigh, sorry. I got you the first time, but didn’t express myself clearly. It’s a great idea. No soloist, but the solo track.
I use the solo track a lot (not the soloist, sorry for the misnomer): for transcription, for recording my midi piano, to work on my lousy timing, to check out different approaches...
There is a great and underestimated PGMUSIC product: the Modern Jazz Pianist. I imported it in BIAB and sent the midi piano to the solo track to check it out. The work of Renee Rosnes especially is full of deliciously refined modern harmony. There is a lot to be learned from that. On this product they didn’t use the automatic accompaniment of BIAB, because it would sound wrong, the bass part in particular. Sadly there is not much in the way of explanation, so I am often clueless in trying to grasp the harmony behind it. It’s way beyond Mark Levine. Like some of the stuff Miles Black talks about in his Pgmusic Jazz Piano tutorial, also a great source of info.
If you open the midi in BIAB you can follow the chords on screen. It’s a pgmusic MIDI and BIAB displays the chords. You can silence drum and bass and choose other accompaniment.
I know this because the original software gives very strange sheet results in Windows 8-10. I was disappointed, but dragging the midi files in BIAB gives you the right chord changes.
It’s very intricate, I said it’s beyond Mark Levine, but that’s not all true. Advanced things I learned from Levine (on slash chords for instance or the “Kenny Barron” chord, the use of phrygian) are omnipresent. And, though I think Renee Rosnes is the big star of the session, Miles Black shows he has some advanced stuff down, also.
I hope Miles Black could one day help us, mortals, to better understand the music (especially what Renee Rosnes does, cause it’s all Hancock, Beirach, Tyner...) on this very underrated piece of software. I’d gladly pay for this tutorial.
With Modern Jazz Pianist, Pgmusic was on the cutting edge of modern jazz. i hope they repeat it one day with todays’ players.
A user should be able to program the midi pattern StyleMaker to use ANY conceivable chord or pattern appropriate to the selected midi patch number.
At the very least perhaps it is time for PG Music to revisit the midi pattern StyleMaker. When a retired college professor states the present StyleMaker is beyond his grasp that is telling.
... When a retired college professor states the present StyleMaker is beyond his grasp that is telling.
Well, now there is a challenge. I doubt it is beyond my grasp. I was put off by it initially, and it is my plan to find time to explore it given the comments of those who say I will benefit by doing so. During the time I'm stranded at home, I'm writing music like crazy. But, point (and nudge) taken. Thanks.
Please do not be offended as no offense was intended.
My hope is PG Music will accept the statement you made and my response as two strong indicators that the midi pattern Stylemaker deserves some attention.
PG Music has started publishing midi styles after neglecting them for a few years. Midi is beginning to have renewed interest so now is an opportune time to give the midi pattern Stylemaker some attention.
Which chords can BIAB really play? Let’s find out in this video. I tried to sum it up in this video (if you go see it on Youtube, I have some markers to help you switch from part to part).
You can easily try it yourself. Just make a blank style with a scale running up and down for bass and piano. Remember, for a style, you have to stay in C7.
And, to be sure, there is still fun to be had. Check the end of the video.
I just want to make sure, was it intentional that you used a bass patch on the second half, representing the scales the piano is to play? It's not a bass part in a higher register showing on the treble clef? I'm confused...
+1 thanks. You just got to keep nagging and posting videos and pics, I hate doing it but it's the only way to get things fixed or implemented, though a decade at it does take it out of you.
You have clearly and sensitively articulated a number of areas where the results don't reflect the expectations. Let's hope these areas can be improved.
Dzjang, with a lot of effort, you have put together quite exactly where BiaB has problems. As a double bass player, I've been concerned for a long time about the program's somewhat neglected approach to jazz bass accompaniment. And I am quite impressed with your own style files.
I appreciate your passion for modern jazz, your knowledge of the limitations of RealTracks, your enthusiasm and desire to share your passion with other people. I listened to some of your style demos and your are a talented creator.
Have your thought of expanding your offerings? You might be the perfect candidate to revive interest in UserTracks.
Jim -once again- raises an important question: why don’t you make (Real) User tracks?
That is the key question. In MIDI, the “algorithm” does some of the work for you. In Realtracks, this does not work.
In BIAB you can make styles by making a MIDI song where you have 2 bar-, 1 bar, half a bar, 1-beat chords. If your MIDI file is long enough, say 32 bars and 3 choruses without any copying and pasting, it works. This way you get more than 15 variations for each “case”: 2 bar chord, 1 bar, half a bar... (Most factory styles are not so elaborate and stick with 5 variations, but still...) Even this “simple” workflow takes me on average 30 hours for only bass and drums and a little piano. One style. Being fed up with hearing the same lines in different styles, as PGMUSIC does, I never use a line twice and that makes it more fun to play along with.
Biab, Yamaha and Roland then have an algorithm that translates chord and scale tones to all possible chords. Yamaha and Roland are scale based, Korg has a really sophisticated algorithm that is scale and chord based. Biab is scale or chord based, but the algorithm only knows a few chords. A good algorithm should know about 26 different possible chords: 7 modes of Major, Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, 1 mode of wholetone, 2 modes of diminished, 2 modes of Augmented. Roland, Yamaha and Korg do a great job at this, but don’t have a good song based software with lead sheets like BIAB. BIAB is both ahead (song, sheet, melody) and behind (harmony...)
In User Tracks you would, to have a good variety and modern harmony, have to record 32 bars, 3 choruses for every chord type (to make it intresting, you could make songs that overlap, of course...). That is 96 bars times 26 chords... quick math for a 120 bpm style: 10 hours of playing! For each instrument! For each style! And that’s if you played perfectly on each take. And not taking the time to correct velocity bumps, adjusting microphones and all...
That is why all jazz Realstyles share the same sixteen bass parts, piano parts, drum parts. And get boring after some time. Cause you select a different style, but, in reality, you get the same drums or bass...
Algorithms do the work for you. Realtracks don’t have that possibility. In the future, with stuff like Melodyne, it will be possible to use the same procedure in audio as in MIDI and sound good. It is already possible, but sounds quirky. At this time, harmony-wise, realtracks are at a dead end. Even at the rate of the minimum wage,
I think MIDI is a good alternative with all the great libraries out there. If only PGMUSIC stepped up their algorithm.
You got it absolutely right. And, hey, who can blame them since they have much too much chords on their list? Even Wayne Shorter would wonder how to play some of these chords, and he is way out there, harmonically, stacking triads on top of other triads, like Dave Liebman explains.
On the one hand, they should simplify it, there are only 16 or so important chords, even in modern jazz. Really, who uses the third mode of harmonic minor, save for Richie Beirach or Hancock? Harmonic.minor, if you have the first sixth and fifth mode, that will do. But, we need melodic minor, augmented, wholetone and diminished and diminished dominant...
On the other, since they managed to get the piano part right for most chords (sadly not for phrygian or susb9 chords, widely used in modern jazz since Miles’ sketches of Spain), they should work on the bass part. Have you heard the altered chord clashing with the bass? It’s horrendous.
Same goes with the MIDI styles: skip a lot of chords or link them to the chord-scale so they share the same scale tones... and get the parts play the modern chords right like lydian(augmented or not), phrygian and altered. Levine and Berklee teached us how to play good music, if Yamaha and Roland can do the right harmonic thing, PGMUSIC should know how.
On a side note... Oliver Gannon, the OG in PGMUSIC, (I’m so hilarious...) plays old fashioned jazz, but in an intricate modern way, like Ed Bickert, Ron Escheté or Jim Hall. If you check his guitar comping disk, a lot of the really great substitutions he uses are just that: phrygian, altered, diminished, augmented. The things he does to the old 251? Wow. Miles Black, same thing, very advanced player. Why can’t these guys advise the tech guys on a better algorithm? Renee Rosnes... Slap those IT-guys and girls over the head with some modern harmony until they get it.
For the sake of keeping a great discussion going, lets let our mind wander and think things through a little bit.
First, the majority of PG Music's RealTracks don't have audio material for all twelve key signatures. How do I know this? Because RealTracks that do have audio in all twelve key signatures are identified in their RealTracks label. My guess is the number of key signatures used to create the audio in a specific RealTrack will vary depending on the audio content as well as the tempo range the RealTrack is expected to support. I would think most RealTracks average audio content in four to five key signatures. The rest of the key signatures are handled by software transposition or pitch shifting.
How big a tempo range does a RealTrack cover? Again it depends on a RealTracks audio content. Generally speaking slow tempos have smaller tempo ranges than fast tempos.
Since UserTracks were introduced in 2014 PG Music has switched the time and pitch shifting software either once and possibly twice. Each software switch dramatically improves rendering sound quality.
Forum member Seeker proved creating audio content for some UserTracks can be automated. Seeker used midi and high quality sound libraries to create wonderful sounding UserTracks. Once he got his system in place Seeker cranked out more than 500 UserTracks over a two year time span.
Dzjang, you seem to know modern Jazz. My guess is you know what key signatures are most often used, what time signatures are popular and the tempos of many modern Jazz songs. What instruments do PG Music RealTracks lack? What tempos and time signatures are under represented?
As you can tell I'm thinking midi and sound libraries can be used to create missing link UserTracks. You may have to use a combination of programs or tools to create the midi tracks that include all the chords you desire but once you have the midi tracks they can be used again and again and again to create all the UserTracks you desire.
One last point. A UserTrack is made of the contents inside a folder. A PG Music song file and audio file combine into one file pair by sharing a label. The label can be anything, it doesn't matter, as long as the song file and audio file label is the same. You can have a file pair called "a.sgu" and "a.wav" if you want. The UserTrack folder can have one file pair or 1,000 file pairs, it doesn't matter as long as each file pair has a unique name. Band-in-a-Box and RealBand uses the sgu file to determine what the paired audio file contains. That means UserTracks content can grow over time. It doesn't have to all be done at once. Create one, release it and let customer feedback determine what's missing.
It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff. 
