Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB?

Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/08/20 07:01 PM

Ok... I admit probably a bit challenging. I just thought it was interesting concept.

Imagine this workflow. Select a few bars somewhere in the middle of arrangement and drag them directly to DAW, so they fall in the right spot in timeline as individual tracks (centered and dry), but just those bars that were selected, nothing else. Sort of building block concept.

If you are still reading, here is another thought. If "bar freeze" comes to BIAB, would be useful if it can be saved as a "block" with possibility to re-shuffle these blocks around in same arrangement without losing "generation" with which they got frozen.... and ability to drag just these "blocks" to DAW so they fall as individual tracks.

Or even go further and save these blocks as a file, with .fbb extension (frozen bar block), so it can be used in other arrangements as a whole block.

Probably too much "requests". I just thought of putting it down before I forget smile



Recently Cakewalk introduced a variant of arranger track. I have not played with it yet, but if I understood Cakewalk's feature correctly, this "drag bar"concept could be a good candidate for it.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/08/20 08:02 PM

I think I understand the concept. One thing to keep in mind is that my understanding is that RealTracks are musical phrases played over several bars (2, 4, etc), maybe more, maybe less. So if a RealTrack phrase is 8 bars long, and you only want to keep bars 3 & 4, it's probably not going to be possible to 'bar freeze' just those bars.

Yes, saving as a 'block' which is made up of multiple bars could work.

However, I am only speculating on the operation here. I have no absolute knowledge of the internal methods used by the program.

Regardless, the concept is not without merit.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/09/20 06:12 AM

Videotrack,
yes, I think that this is the main challenge, to have "bar freeze" in general, so they (freezes) transition smoothly into other parts of arrangement. But probably consecutive sections of composition can be done as frozen blocks, with "tails"...
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/09/20 07:12 AM

Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
I think I understand the concept. One thing to keep in mind is that my understanding is that RealTracks are musical phrases played over several bars (2, 4, etc), maybe more, maybe less. So if a RealTrack phrase is 8 bars long, and you only want to keep bars 3 & 4, it's probably not going to be possible to 'bar freeze' just those bars.

Yes, saving as a 'block' which is made up of multiple bars could work.

However, I am only speculating on the operation here. I have no absolute knowledge of the internal methods used by the program.

Regardless, the concept is not without merit.


Only speculation here also but if any measure could be cut/sliced at the zero point in the audio wav the it would work. Many DAWs can do this.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/10/20 06:27 PM

RustySpoon#,

Are you familiar with a Band-in-a-Box feature called "Song Form"? Song Form lets you define bars into blocks and then arrange the song by moving, copying or even deleting blocks.

While it won't help move blocks between Band-in-a-Box and a DAW it may help get the tracks set up like you want so you can quickly export arrangements.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/12/20 02:03 AM

Quote:
Imagine this workflow. Select a few bars somewhere in the middle of arrangement and drag them directly to DAW, so they fall in the right spot in timeline as individual tracks (centered and dry), but just those bars that were selected, nothing else. Sort of building block concept.

You could even have another instance of Biab with different instruments and drag the same section under the other tracks in the DAW.
You could select an extra bar at the start/end this will give some adjust in the DAW to merge better.
In Reaper you can have the chord regions with different colors.
Reaper has a region player that will play any selected region in any order you like. You can render the regions selected.
Reaper Extensions > Region Playlist

I suggested some time back to have these options in the Audio > Export Song As Audio File.. they would be helpful in the + DROP option.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/12/20 07:22 PM

Reaper will import the region chords from the BiabPlugin or musicxml or BB Chord Output Midi or Midi Markers.
The regions can be copied or moved and added to any order in the region playlist to quickly preview any arrangement with smooth transitions during playback.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/12/20 08:18 PM

Selecting a few bars somewhere in the middle of arrangement and sending them to a DAW requires nothing more than exporting WAV audio. Can you explain what the issue you're having so I can better understand your wish? If it's exporting small section or exporting audio, BIAB can do both of those tasks. There's also already a procedure to create smooth transitions.

Because BIAB operates as a virtual studio, there's no sound, midi or RealTracks audio until you render, generate or export it from a virtual track. These virtual instruments don't exist in any physical sense. On a BIAB channel, they are simply a set of instructions stored on the computer until each time you hit Play. Each time Play is hit, the instructions are executed with any changes, additions, mutes, fades, gain changes, unmute, panning, volume and effects. This is all digital with no effect or degradation to any audio that's ultimately rendered.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/13/20 06:46 AM

Pipeline,
yes in theory what you showed works. I am on Cakewalk, but process is similar. There are numerous issues with that approach. The biggest one is that sections are simply chopped off, they will not fall smoothly into the project because they lack, what Mario above mentioned, -"zero point" cut and also any tails it might have. So at the end you still end up doing a lot of tedious work on the clips. There is more time wasted importing sections through DAW plugin and polishing ends compared to exporting complete song WAVs (with tails, etc.) and importing them to DAW

----
Charlie,
Most things I mentioned above. Other aspect, which I feel is our ongoing conversation is ergonomics / design, the A->B path smile So to make my point more clear, I suggest you download Chordpulse trial and see if you can figure it out in 5 minutes. I did. It is a tiny arranger program that came out 10 years ago. This is not to compare it with BIAB, but to clarify what I mean by good design, ergonomics, pleasant appearance, doing complex things - the easy way (for example moving entire blocks around)! I believe Jim. F. likes that program too smile So to relate to initial request and directly answer your question. Yes, what I "wish" for is doable "as is", but not intuitively, not ergonomically and will take more time and many more steps in making arrangement than the workflow I am after. When trying to give a fresh look at BIAB features that relate to this approach, I stumble on the same rakes as I did initially when I explored them first time. In my view they are not complete and not streamlined with process of assembling/arranging basic blocks.

I understand, that initial request is probably a bit vague and most importantly, features that are in place would have to be significantly modified in order to achieve this. However going back to same mantra, I feel that the only true and clear workaround is opening more mixer channels. So you keep all your BIAB tracks, bits and pieces in one place and in one BIAB project, changeable within that project.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 05:18 AM

"...sections are simply chopped off, they will not fall smoothly into the project because they lack, what Mario above mentioned, -"zero point" cut and also any tails it might have."

and

"... saving and moving 'Blocks'

with

"I feel that the only true and clear workaround is opening more mixer channels."


RealBand is the immediate, intuitive, ergonomic and logical answer here. I can assure you with unquestionable certainty that adding more mixer channels to the BIAB Mixer will not solve your workflow issue. Regeneration, frozen tracks, more mixer tracks, comping tracks, moving block sections, audio editing, all these features currently exist in BIAB "as is". As you acknowledge, in their current state, they are not intuitive or ergonomic and would have to be significantly modified to achieve being more intuitive and ergonomic and which would essentially turn BIAB into RealBand.
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 05:22 AM

I would be ok with essentially turning BIAB into RealBand.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 08:07 AM

Charlie,
" I can assure you with unquestionable certainty that adding more mixer channels to the BIAB Mixer will not solve your workflow issue."

I assure you 100%, it will!! - 16 Minimum, for RT's or MIDI, as most of arrangers had/have.


As I mentioned in other post in our conversation, I will try it again with slightly different wording. I wish not to learn the software which I feel does not have a solid future.
There are fantastic free and very inexpensive DAWs that will outbeat RB in 90% of features and workflow. Why re-invent the wheel? As one member noted earlier, RB should be kept as Legacy software...running., and all the resources freed should be put behind products that could and should be improved and developed further. I am 100% behind that.

Also..Wish is a wish. It is not a cry for a workaround smile

Matt,
"I would be ok with essentially turning BIAB into RealBand."
+1

I too suggested that once but was met with shield and sword. smile Yes, essentially I would love to have "some" features of RB in BIAB which are missing, losing the rest 80%., but I guess before that could be done, BIAB has to be "ready" for such changes.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 09:07 AM

FWIW I think the emphasis should be on the VST. Adding features from BiaB and RB to the VST would be extremely valuable. That and improve the workflow and GUI would make it an universal product, i.e. both MAC and PC. It could make BiaB and RB obsolete. YMMV
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 09:26 AM

Mario,
I think there should be a standalone program and a VST. (NI, Halion etc.)
I am not a programmer, and most certainly do not know if there is a plan of VST plugin to be worked out as a full featured standalone...
Lets assume it is (or isn't), same story remains... of 16 or more available channels for RT or MIDI smile
Posted by: JohnJohnJohn

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
RealBand is the immediate, intuitive, ergonomic and logical answer here.

RealBand is not even remotely intuitive or ergonomic!
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Mario,
I think there should be a standalone program and a VST. (NI, Halion etc.)
I am not a programmer, and most certainly do not know if there is a plan of VST plugin to be worked out as a full featured standalone...
Lets assume it is (or isn't), same story remains... of 16 or more available channels for RT or MIDI smile


As I have stated many times over many years that I want all 16 channels opened up to the user so yes I am in your camp.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 02:14 PM

I don't want to knock ANY ideas, I suggest ways it could be done or find a workaround until it's done (or not) but all these things are why the BiabPlugin was made. It would help if you could suggest features in the BiabPlugin forum that's you thinks needed or if you need the complexities of Biab then maybe a VST to sync Biab as a slave to your DAW.
There was talk for yearssss about a new reprogrammed 64bit RealBand that works like Biab generating to RAM with more tracks.
That never came around so ReaTrak was made to integrate Biab (and now the Plugin) with Reaper as the scripting allows you to add features "today" without going to the wishing well year after year.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 04:51 PM

Here's another example of what can be done with the Plugin/s.
If the Plugin had an option to start play when the DAW reached bar 256, so after it plays bar 255 in the first instance it will start play of bar 1 in the second instance with the rest of the song (that has this option checked). You could even add 255 to the bar numbers in instance 2 giving you the actual same bar numbers as the DAW.

Here is an example video with 2 Plugins, when the first on the left gets to bar 256 (17) then the second plugin starts on bar 256 (17) and continues to play seamlessly.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/14/20 07:27 PM

Pipeline,
why is that you are not working next door to Adar?...in mask...

Ok, plugin is another beast. Per your recommendation, I tried it. Fun toy, and very well might have uses for some folks. But being so stripped, has no use to me at this time. I am afraid I will sound too negative if I start expressing my opinions about it smile The bottom line, I do see appeal and usefulness in it for some (if not half of future) users so I will keep it to myself for now.

My preferred way of doing things is sequential. Idea->BIAB->DAW->synths, instruments,vocals->Mix. Not jumping from place to place if absolutely not needed. I guess, unless some huge steps are taken in plugin development I will stick to BIAB. I do wish BIAB would get modernized and cleaned a little + biggest request of more mixer tracks so whole BIAB arrangement can stay in single BIAB project until ready for export to DAW.

P.S. Hey, I really do not want to sound like a cry baby. I can totally get away with how I do things, just sharing my feedback / wishes.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 05/15/20 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Pipeline,
why is that you are not working next door to Adar?...in mask...

Ok, plugin is another beast. Per your recommendation, I tried it. Fun toy, and very well might have uses for some folks. But being so stripped, has no use to me at this time. I am afraid I will sound too negative if I start expressing my opinions about it smile The bottom line, I do see appeal and usefulness in it for some (if not half of future) users so I will keep it to myself for now.


I agree. The only thing I use the vst for is to copy the chords over to my DAW.

Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

My preferred way of doing things is sequential. Idea->BIAB->DAW->synths, instruments,vocals->Mix. Not jumping from place to place if absolutely not needed. I guess, unless some huge steps are taken in plugin development I will stick to BIAB. I do wish BIAB would get modernized and cleaned a little + biggest request of more mixer tracks so whole BIAB arrangement can stay in single BIAB project until ready for export to DAW.

P.S. Hey, I really do not want to sound like a cry baby. I can totally get away with how I do things, just sharing my feedback / wishes.


My work flow is identical to yours.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: Select bars -> drag to DAW / Frozen bars to DAW/ re-arrange frozen sections in BIAB? - 06/21/20 09:23 PM

I thought about this for some time. This is what I came up with.

It would be helpful to...
Select bars (anywhere in the composition)->right click-> (and have the option) "export selected"
So it would export only the content of these bars in separate or mixed wav(s) with silence before and after:

########----------------------
--------##########------------
--------------------------####
------------------########----

*optional feature is to automate naming of exported bars (numbers of exported bars added to the file name).

I am aware of at least 3 "workarounds", it is not a request for one, rather it is a request for automating monkey process.

P.S. Essentially it is extension of bar-to-bar regen/freeze wish item.

Thank you.