MY XMAS WISHES FOR BIAB 2021.
1. in the stylepicker some style demoes assume net access.
but the problem is a lot of studios keep their studio computers off the net. like mine. for security reasons.
plz just include all demos of styles with the product. eg the usb drive. or with updates.
2. biab song start.
when a user starts a new song i would like to see immediately a message pop up.
"where do you want all user exported traks/content/midi's/drops in normal mode , and/or
when biab is plugged into a daw TO GO ?"
and the user selects a folder.
for me my song folder where also all my daw recorded traks go.
ie my central repository for the song.
3. 16 traks. yes please. but note my wish for a test app so people with underpowered computers dont overload them. see my RB wishlist.
also i would recommend a overload detector feature in case someone is trying to load too many plug ins into too many traks etc possibly on an underpowered computer.
thus reporting to a user "sorry but biab(or RB or powertraks) is detecting a possible overload condition,
please use fewer traks and/or plug ins".
whether the win api/programming environment allows for this i dont know.
if i remember heavy duty industrial apps often have this type of feature. so i'm sure it does.
it might forewarn of a possible crash situation. its just that if 16 traks is implemented, and given the way
RT's work i suspect problems might arise for some users underpowered computers.
4. i want more of the rarer real traks at different tempos.
harps was a nice idea. but eg vocals/choirs/back up singers/cellos/violins/fiddles/trumpets/general brass instruments/hornensembles/clarinets/bells/xylophones/flutes/harpsichords/and other orchestral instruments not currently in biab. of course more loops/hi Q's also.
5. for each RD , i would like at the end single hits of each drum in the set so i could more easily fix up drum
traks. like a single drum hits area the user could access.
6. i dont need it as i'm a purist and do vocs till i get them right. but i might as i get older if my vocal range
is not as high lol.
a autotune button on each trak. (eg the audio trak in biab, and the traks in RB and powertraks designated as
audio traks. )
just a one button press. if the one button auto tune dont work then ,the user should use a more sophisticated program/plug in . maybe it could be expanded also to generate
simple harmony vocs etc on traks that are in tune.
7. please see also my other wishlist posts during 2020.

thats bout it for me, because i can handle various issues as they arise in biab.
merry xmas to all pg users and staff.

respectfully.
oldmuso.

Hello, will it be possible for biab 2021 that the problems related to user tracks be solved it is essential for many of us thank you.

RE: Your Christmas wishes for BIAB 2021.

<< 1. in the stylepicker some style demoes assume net access.<<
but the problem is a lot of studios keep their studio computers off the net. like mine. for security reasons.
plz just include all demos of styles with the product. eg the usb drive. or with updates. >>
At one time, there was a download of demos available. I'm not sure when it may have last been updated but I recall it was a large download and would still provide off line users with a partial data base if it's still available at the PG Music Web site.

<< 2. BIAB song start.
when a user starts a new song i would like to see immediately a message pop up.
"where do you want all user exported tracks/content/midi's/drops in normal mode , and/or
when BIAB is plugged into a DAW TO GO ?"
and the user selects a folder. for me my song folder where also all my DAW recorded tracks go.
ie my central repository for the song. >>
BIAB does each of these options now whenever the user Saves or Saves As the song project. So by immediately saving a project after opening a new project, BIAB will generate a message prompting the user to designate a working folder for that project. In addition, according to the method the user chooses to save the project will determine whether BIAB uses a default name or a user generated name as it automatically saves and names exported audio files.

<< 3. 16 tracks. yes please. but note my wish for a test app so people with underpowered computers don't overload them. see my RB Wishlist.
also i would recommend a overload detector feature in case someone is trying to load too many plug ins into too many tracks etc possibly on an underpowered computer.
thus reporting to a user "sorry but BIAB (or RB or powertracks) is detecting a possible overload condition,
please use fewer tracks and/or plug ins".
whether the win api/programming environment allows for this i don't know.
if i remember heavy duty industrial apps often have this type of feature. so i'm sure it does.
it might forewarn of a possible crash situation. its just that if 16 tracks is implemented, and given the way
RT's work i suspect problems might arise for some users underpowered computers. >>
Here, you've made the best case I've seen for NOT implementing this often requested wish for additional BIAB Mixer Tracks. BIAB needs to remain usable to every customer and not just those that are power users or have high end expensive computer hardware.


The need for additional tracks is also somewhat of a myth because of the way RealTracks and audio files work within the BIAB Mixer aren't as ram CPU intensive as you think in regard to power. CPU's of 2008 vintage are powerful enough to generate RealTracks so there is little underpowered concern.

Except for the Audio Channel, BIAB Mixer Channels, Bass, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, Melody and Soloist don't natively hold physical audio files. In fact, until a RealTrack is rendered, no physical audio file of that exact rendition of BIAB chosen audio RealTrack from that RealTrack physical audio file exists. It is a virtual track. The tracks hold data.

This function with understanding BIAB functions as a multi track recorder is a very powerful yet uncomplicated and not a CPU intensive combination that allows BIAB to work across the entire spectrum of Computers of low resource, older OS's to the most powerful computers on the market. Not having additional resource robbing visible tracks and also not extending generating time, BIAB uses preparatory algorithms and processes that allow users to create, UserTracks, Artist Performance Tracks, and for BIAB to convert and move audio files to these other seven BIAB Mixer Tracks so BIAB functions the same as a hardware multi track recorder while retaining all of BIAB's exclusive and proprietary software functions and techniques.

BIAB is just as unique and singular in comparison to hardware multi track recorders as it is to every DAW on the market. Nothing else can do what BIAB does, DAW or Hardware recorder. Think of it this way; Generating seven BIAB tracks and an Audio Track yields the exact same results as a live recording session with a Focusrite 18i20 utilizing all 8 inputs simultaneously.

What BIAB also does is provide 10 additional sub input channels per BIAB Mixer Channel to create custom instrument mixes of RealTracks using multiple methods of playback for each channel. Using these sub mixer tracks does not increase the generating power BIAB uses. They work equally as well on a 10 year old computer and OS as they do on new systems.

Simply applying decades old multi track recording principles and techniques allow a user to create first generation, no loss mix compilations of dozens of instruments the same quality and sound as if they were recorded on a 16 track, 24 track or even a 48 track physical recorder. The BIAB Mixer is capable of producing a total of 70 separate instruments in a single, first generation quality stereo audio file. While it's hard to imagine the need of 70 individual instruments, that's the upper single generation limit and the true power is not in the sum total, but how the user applies recording techniques to this total.

These sub tracks are a way the user can access BIAB pre audio track selection so that transitions, instrument change outs, solo beginnings and endings, cross fades, mutes and back to normal (unmute) functions can be programmed into the track generation rather than after the audio has been selected by the BIAB algorithm so that these events occur smoothly and correctly rather than the abrupt cut offs, incorrect chording's and such that happens when using Bar Settings.

Another plus is having the multi track technique of Bouncing Tracks exponentially expands the track count even more. Because this bouncing process today is digital rather than analog, the audio is not rendered and available to be saved as a physical file until the save function is applied, there's no degradation of the audio signal like there is in analog recording.

While I don't know what goes on behind the curtain with generating BIAB tracks and how they're programmed. It doesn't matter. Applying Multi track techniques and principles create results the same as hardware multi track recorders - meaning using the techniques work...

You can quickly and easily see how this works for yourself by creating new project, enter a chord progression, select a key and tempo and any style. Either select a Style that uses a PG Music Medley group or Select a Medley from the RealTracks Picker.

<< 4. i want more of the rarer real tracks at different tempos.
harps was a nice idea. but eg vocals/choirs/back up singers/cellos/violins/fiddles/trumpets/general brass instruments/hornensembles/clarinets/bells/xylophones/flutes/harpsichords/and other orchestral instruments not currently in BIAB . of course more loops/hi Q's also. >>[\b]
Plus one

[b]<< 5. for each RD , i would like at the end single hits of each drum in the set so i could more easily fix up drum
tracks . like a single drum hits area the user could access. >>
Most drum audio files do have single hits at the end of the file with user access.

<< 6. i don't need it as i'm a purist and do vocs till i get them right. but i might as i get older if my vocal range
is not as high lol. an autotune button on each track . (eg the audio track in BIAB , and the tracks in RB and powertracks designated as
audio tracks .)just a one button press. if the one button auto tune dont work then ,the user should use a more sophisticated program/plug in . maybe it could be expanded also to generate
simple harmony vocs, etc on tracks that are in tune. >>
Both BIAB and RB have pitch correction and in BIAB there's a fix tuning selection in the Audio Edit - Edit menu.

<< 7. please see also my other Wishlist posts during 2020. >>
I'm sure they will if you've placed them in the Wishlist Forum.

About the ‘overload condition’ discussed above, that’s possible even now with certain low-powered computers and certain RealTracks and the high-quality and fast settings in BIAB Preferences. I like the suggestion of a warning. One can also use a free CPU meter to see a problem arising.

charlie.
as always i like a nice exchange with you.
1. 16 traks.
re 16 traks. did you see pipelines graphic layout ?. that was lovely. well thought out.

the prob is charlie, you know all the "tricks" to squeeze max performance out of biab. as youve shown in your post.
(includeing useing BIAB akin to an MTR).
so do a lot of us. the problem is often new users DONT.
even some longer time users dont.

its hard enough just to get people to read manuals. (eg biab manuals.).
i found this out the hard way in industry. we would pump out lots of helpfull manuals, triks and tips
but most people STILL never bothered to read them (or the FAQ's), and thus often help deks were flooded with calls, because people didnt want to read the manuals !
when i worked in industry i found people wanted what i call "instant coffee solutions."
ie "i, the user/client have a problem, no i didnt read the manual, but i want it solved NOW otherwise i'm calling the CEO." lol.

so any OVERT feature that makes acceptance by new users fast i think is a good thing, rather than them finding out through often trial and error.

just think over the years, how many times have you posted your nice biab "triks" to help a new user ?
it shows your a nice helpful person, and kudos to you for that, and your patience in doing so.
but i feel users like rustyspoon and others have a valid wish for 16 traks.

OR MAYBE EVEN BETTER . LET THE USER DECIDE HOW MANY RT's/MIDI's/AUDIO TRAKS RECONFIGURABLE BY THE USER.
TO A TOTAL OF 16 ??
as a user would in their daw. total flexibility within 16 trak limit.

so some users might choose 12 RT's , 2 midis, and two voc audio traks.
others 7 audio traks, 4 midi traks, and 5 RT traks for a total of 16.
see what i mean ??
ie ULTIMATE USER FLEXIBILITY.
frankly i can do songs with or without it, i was just thinking of the new user.
also .
when PG pump out the manual with the usb drive in the box i think they should include an addendum like "charlies and other users tips and tricks".
2. VOC TUNING.
the prob is this stuff is hidden in menus. people have to hunt.
and then go through a choice/set up process.
the idea was a simple one button press. et voila. vocs tuned.
put the option on the mixer.
3. BIAB SAVES.
i think i maybe didnt express the wish properly charlie.
its all to do with how biab drag/drop folder works and/or when biab is used as a plugin in a daw. please read this thread.
and pipelines reply with a script.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=620905#Post620905


-------------------------------------------------------------
matt.
the idea is to have a pre-emptive feature before the user gets into deep trouble, and possibly blames pg. also yes the user can employ a cpu checker a la in win task mgr.
but how many will bother ?? thus the wish.
think of it like an "early warning system." ! in industry we found this type of feature cut down sometimes on no of support calls.

best.
oldmuso.

Your description of the caveats of 16 tracks outweigh the benefits anyone has listed in any Wishlist request for additional channels. This is especially true in the latest versions of BIAB. Further as Matt addressed, older systems and CERTAIN low powered computers and CERTAIN RealTracks and the high-quality and fast settings in BIAB Preferences can result in overload conditions. In this instance Matt and I are talking about different issues of the same type. There will always be users with computer system that struggles with some aspect of BIAB, be it CPU, ram, RealTracks generations, VST's but my point was more general that users with computer systems that are older and weaker powered, PG Music has addressed these issues in the past and created options to turn off certain processes to lower CPU issues. PG Music has done a tremendous job and accomplished quite a feat in retaining all users to use RealTracks and RealDrums since their inception through this year's version.

What a disappointment it would be for PG Music to add 8 more channels to the BIAB Mixer and doing so deprive a large population of the BIAB community the ability to access this feature because their computer is too old or they have the wrong CPU on their system and no option to upgrade it. It doesn't matter and there's no benefit if 16 tracks isn't something all users can access and enjoy without it choking or crashing their system. I have no idea if adding additional tracks would cause any issues to older and weaker computer systems but this has been a popular request for years so I'm thinking there's likely some type of barrier.

<< The problem is Charlie, you know all the "tricks" to squeeze maximum performance out of BIAB as you've shown in your posts. (including using BIAB akin to an MTR). So do a lot of us. The problem is often new users DON'T. Even some longer time users don't. >>

I don't believe the problem has anything to do with "tricks", work arounds, reading the manual or that producing a BIAB project with 20 or 30 tracks is some advanced hidden feature. It really isn't any more difficult to do than anything beyond what anyone that can program a song and create an arrangement using the Bar Settings to mute/unmute tracks to make a more pleasing and dynamic than just allowing all the instruments to play throughout from start to finish. It becomes a matter of what a user wants to learn and what they want to get out of BIAB before moving tracks to a DAW. It's a simple technique that once the process for a single track is learned, the same steps are repeated over and over until an song arrangement that satisfies the users needs have been met.

Encouraging users to read the manual is beyond the scope of anything Forum members should concern ourselves with and should not have anything to do with any user choosing to learn the steps to a long time existing BIAB feature.

I also believe that it's somewhat easier for new users to apply the multi track and medley features than some long time users that have developed their own very successful workflow over a long period of time. No need to fix what's not broken.

A true benefit of the BIAB Mixer functioning as a multi track recorder is the flexibility of the sound media the BIAB Mixer Channels accept. The tracks accept MIDI, BIAB MST's, RealDrums, RealTracks, and WAV/WMA audio files. Using the Artist Performance Track and UserTrack features, any combination of these media types can be merged and mixed into a sub-mix onto a single mono or stereo track.

It's been another cordial exchange with you and you've raised valid concerns and questions.

Charlie I am a big advocator for opening up the 16 tracks that are available now. BUT I always have said that option should be a radio button option: That is the user could use those 16 tracks as they are now OR they could choose to have them opened up for whatever, i.e. MIDI, RTs, RDs, and/or loops. YMMV

About the number 16, there’s no magic there. We think in terms of MIDI having 16 channels, and it’s highly likely BIAB started that way because it was only MIDI. Then people count the tracks that appear to be used and want to bring it up to 16. I’ve posted many times, but possibly not enough, that BIAB reserves some of the tracks for guitar strings and/or harmony.

If MIDI is the model, then open up a second bank. But why stop at 32? Go to 256. But why not? The original design of the file structure, based on the limits of a certain number of allocated binary digits, is the likely answer. Maintaining backwards compatibility is essential. This, and breaking the 255 measure limit, requires redesign.

charlie.
i see your position on this subject , and you make good points.
anyhoo there is always RB with its 48 traks as an option for users.
(i just wish one could turn off the RB waveform redraws as an option. then turn them on as needed.
i find they hold me up when i'm in my "work fast creative zone" compared to biab with no waveform redraws.)

there is always this tension in various big industry segments ive worked in , between "power users" who want more and more
and people who just want the basics.

thus its very difficult for a software developer in keeping everyone happy.
ive seen every aspect of this "push pull" over the years.
its like a tug of war. its an on-going challenge for any developer.
especially as the darned OS's change.

lets see what the future brings anyway as biab/RB etc evolve.
as i said i can create songs many ways just in biab 2020.

but i think it fair to say that you and i are what i call "diggers" always delving into the depths and finding all the little tricks that might not be obvious at first glance.

for example the first thing i did when i got 2020 months ago was i created a page in a 3 ring binder , with each page headed by instrument RT name. eg harp or bass or synth, drums whatever.
then on each page i have 2 vertical columns , instrument id no, and comments/rating of each RT.
thus when i do a song , and i'm thinking what instruments do i want in this song; my binder with my comments is a handy reference. took me a month to create.
i delved into every one of the biab 2020 thousands of RT's, demoes, sounds,styles etc etc in all bb dirs in the process.

same in industry ive worked in. some people are natural "diggers" like us, and love to find that "golden nugget"
and others arent.

best.
oldmuso.

matt.
maybe its lucky 16 lol.
the only caveat i would suggest in opening things up is i can see someone with a low power computer trying to plug in
on a boatload of midi traks high cpu useage vsti's perhaps
which i think argues once again for some type of early warning overload feature.

In all due respect Matt I think it is definitely time for a redesign, one that includes more tracks, all time signatures, more than four chords per bar, etc, etc.

I couldn’t agree more, Mario.

<< Charlie I am a big advocator for opening up the 16 tracks that are available now. BUT I always have said that option should be a radio button option: That is the user could use those 16 tracks as they are now OR they could choose to have them opened up for whatever, i.e. MIDI, RTs, RDs, and/or loops. YMMV >>
<< Matt Finley: "I couldn’t agree more, Mario." >>

Mario and Matt, I agree completely with you about improvements regarding MIDI. My remarks are more focused toward audio than MIDI and with the BIAB Mixer concerning how audio can be used. BIAB makes allowance so that audio files can be manipulated to reside on any of the BIAB Mixer's Channels in conjunction with creating and importing audio through the Audio Channel. That's doesn't appear to be the case with MIDI. Regarding MIDI, it seems BIAB uses channels 2-10 so the User is somewhat limited to channels 11-16. I don't program much with MIDI so I'm not sure how BIAB addresses channel 1.

Additional channels only simplify and double all of the amazing benefits BIAB offers users access to regarding programming audio. So my opinion is to support adding channels and get the benefit of having more audio editing and arranging power than is available now. Hopefully, the new channels give the MIDI users what they desire as well. But judging solely from Users Forum posts and comments in the other PG Music Forums, many users forego taking advantage of the singular power BIAB offers that is unique to audio editing from every existing DAW, including RB in many aspects.

Placing multiple RealTrack instruments on a single channel (The Medley Feature) does not apparently stress the CPU nor take longer to generate any more than generating a single instrument. My guess to why is since at the time it's generating, no physical audio file of the specific exists. The BIAB algorithm is hard wired to point to and create markers onto the selected RealTrack audio file in the RealTracks Folder. If there are multiple RealTrack instruments, the BIAB algorithm points to that instruments RealTrack audio file in the RealTracks Folder. It operates the same as a patch change in a midi file and is data on a virtual track. Generating a track is following data instructions, the algorithm goes out and marks specific audio from the hard drive, assimilates it, plays it. No physical audio file exists until that track or song is compiled and rendered from those instructions.

Customizing RealStyles and creating MultiStyles from them that are activated by Part Markers expands on the single track Medley arrangement's ability to create professional grade renders within the BIAB program without the need to move tracks to a DAW to achieve similar results.

Using the new BIAB multi riff feature on a track that's programmed with a 4-5 instrument medley, users can now easily regenerate just the section containing either a part played by an instrument they want to change or they can decide to replace that instrument with another instrument altogether without changing or losing any of the other instruments performance. Remarkably, this can now be done faster in BIAB than it takes to open a DAW and export the individual tracks and edit these changes in the DAW. In fact, one has to return to BIAB if the user makes the choice to 'replace' an instrument with another.

Sometimes, it's mystifying what some users choose not to do in BIAB.

+1
for 16 channels of available mixer tracks (for RT/RD/MIDI).
No workarounds or "other" acrobatics!

P.S. Matt 16 is a "kind" of a magic number One simple reason, it would probably get intense for computers to smoothly (and so it does not take forever) to handle more, considering regenerations.

I think 16 is only magic because it's very early in the sequence of binary-based numbers.

This is for anyone interested, not necessarily Rustyspoon. Let me give an example of why this used to be extremely important and is not now. Does everyone remember the fear when the date changed to 2000? The Y2K problem was that some programmers had used only two digits to represent dates (like 88 or 95 to represent 1988 or 1995). In the early days of coding, every byte (character) was important when designing files. Storage devices were small and expensive. No one wanted to allocate four bytes to store a number that wasn't important, or so they thought, if two bytes would do. Many of us teaching programming surmised the problem in the early 1990s and were hired to rewrite code to avoid the problem. Thus 2000 came and went smoothly.

Why is this story relevant here? Because BIAB was designed before the early 1990s. Every byte that had to be stored on a hard drive (or earlier than that, a cassette tape), mattered. Thus we have things like the 255 measure limit. Now, we have huge relatively inexpensive storage devices which cause almost no constraints on coding. A rewrite of BIAB would be needed to allocate sufficient space for future development. It's not a unique problem.

Matt,
Agreed with some points, but here are my reasons why I believe 16 is a magic number for BIAB.
It would probably make no sense if the aim is to have a plugin based BIAB only at some point, because most likely you would be able to open 2 (or more) instances of BIAB in DAW in the future to make up any number of tracks you desire... but I sincerely hope that while plugin is being aggressively developed, a standalone will remain in place... or at least would be launchable as a standalone with shell (future Nanohost or similar) Now before I say anything further, I did have a "wish" at one point to have tracks on demand... "+"

So here it goes:

1)16 tracks will easily fit in the screen and as with most (VST) sequencers/synth/samplers it would be familiar to most users.

2)Since BIAB is mainly acoustic/electric instrument program, usually 8 tracks are enough to "make up" the backing band, however my main reasons to have extra tracks for:

a)having a different variant or regeneration of RT/RD/Midi to compare side by side with ones that are already in place or auditioning various tracks with context of composition, without ridiculous workarounds or "losing" one in the process of opening/closing.
b)use the sections of any from above, by muting unwanted while still retaining whole tracks.

3)use extra tracks for filaments: Breaks, loops, minor segments etc.

4)just use extra RTs/RDs/Midi for "fuller" band

----------------------

I am not saying that I will be against 19 or 23 tracks, I would welcome that too
However, I do believe "16" will satisfy vast majority of users.

Interesting and quite accurate.

I also worked extensively as an analyst in identifying and undertaking program changes, and exhaustive testing for year 2000 rollover. Everything was achieved successfully.

The date limitations were identified and completely resolved 20 years ago.

At that time BiaB had 8 tracks in the mixer.

20 years later BiaB still has 8 tracks. Hmmmm.

Roll on 2021...

As everyone knows I am a big proponent of a complete rewrite for many reasons. I also know that BiaB already has 16 tracks. But most are dedicated to harmonies and MIDI guitar inputs. I wonder how hard it would be to make all of those inputs available for other uses like RTs, etc. It would have to been an option so those that use them now could keep using them.

Note I know nothing about the code in BiaB so the above may be an easy option or it may be impossible. Only the programmers know that answer.

Mario, let's see what happens with the next release. I seem to recall PGM staff making a comment earlier in the year something about more tracks was not impossible. Maybe, just maybe, something might eventuate.

videotrack.
i would like to see more orchestral instruments at tempos
between 120 to 180 bpm, so i can use them in crazy rock songs.
my greates interest is the synergy of orchestral instruments
with the rock genre.

best
oldmuso.

That's a good suggestion that might be placed in the Styles and RealTracks wishlist section.

I remember the same that Videotrack mentions, about more tracks. I agree, perhaps the easiest way to implement that is just to give us a choice how we use the 16 existing tracks.

I was thinking that they could get away from the the old Delphi code in bbw (BBW4 that the Plugin uses in the background) and translate only the basic functions to "Generate" to the Plugin code, then I started my PC and a wallpaper came up in the spotlight logon screen, it was called Delphi, and it is an old ruins, still standing but only just, was that a message or what ?
See moving just the needed code over to the Plugin language will let the Plugin develop at lighting speed rather than the nightmare of trying to update the old Delphi bbw with real time signatures, more chords per bar, more bars (over 255), decimal point tempos.

Matt and VT, thank you for explaining this! I always hear people saying something like "that whole Y2K thing was so overblown and hyped but everything went just fine." Yeah, everything went just fine because of folks like you two who saw the problem and fixed it!

Thanks. It wasn’t hype that things could have been very bad.

Not intending to derail the thread, but seeing Y2K was mentioned, you might like to know this: My company was involved at that time in testing traffic signal controllers for year 2000 compliance. Traffic Signal Controllers are complex, multi-processor devices with conflict monitoring, schedulers, calendars, time-of-day clocks, safety interlocks, lamp monitoring and much more. They have to be absolutely safe and completely reliable. If Y2K was going to be a problem, then every signalized intersection in a city was going to have serious issues.

We sent instructions to our colleagues in Dublin, Ireland on the test procedure they should follow. They prepared to undertake rigorous advance testing, with a complete test environment system of management computers, communications networks all connected to a fully programmed traffic signal controller with output circuits and lamps all enabled. It was as close to real world as possible.

The computer clocks were set to a few minutes before midnight. Everyone watched anxiously as the time reached 23:59:59, but at the very next second everything blacked out, the controller shut down, and all the lights went out. Everyone was in shock and disbelief. Then they found that Dave Traynor had quietly pulled the plug out from the wall socket...

True story.

To preface my comment PL, I absolutely admire the work you do, your skill, energy and contribution. It is always better than outstanding.

However, in fairness, your comparison to the Greek ruins and the Delphi RAD Studio development environment used by BiaB might be a tiny bit extreme.

The real time signatures, number of chords per bar, 255 bar limitation and decimal point tempos have nothing to do with any perceived limitations of the Object Pascal Language. Delphi has always had the capability to deliver all of those features. It can handle all of those requirements easily. (Separately, the name Delphi refers historically to 'a place where people were consulted about important decisions and knowledge').

Porting that BiaB code to another development environment would not fix those limitations. Those limitations are all totally related to the software design (the actual written code).

I understand that RealBand uses the same development environment (Delphi). But it doesn't seem to share the same limitations (limited number of tracks, number of bars, restricted to integer tempo values, etc).

If you want to "a complete rewrite" you could use Delphi, sure, but why ?
The Plugin is developed quickly without limitations, all the limitations are with the BBW4 side and waiting for a communication line to be added.
The deal is the "OLD" code that has to be modified, I would say that is where the bottle neck is, that these things aren't just "DONE" as they would be if it was ALL done in the Plugin code.
The example is, if it can be done in Reaper without limitations, any time signature and more chords per bar, with some Lua script the same can be done moving the basic code to the Plugin and improving that rather than having to go through all the code in the old Delphi bbw, with a lot of code from the DOS days that is limiting things. Start afresh with the basics, get away from 1990 8.3 ACHYBRKY.MGU _SLOBLZ1.STY in the Plugin.
"For TimeSigs higher than
4/4, each bar will be spread out
over 2 or more bars (eg. 5/4 will be
written as 3/4+2/4)."
The RealDrums can be easily made to be Generated directly in the Plugin the same way it was in Reaper with a script.
There could not be that much code to generate up the RealTracks from the RealTrack files, they have all the info you need just like the F5 UserTrack settings, the Plugin could also easily do the UserTracks without the need for BBW4.
Like I can modify some Delphi forms and compile them back into the exe but I should have to do that.

RealBand is also a front end of the old bbw2 code it communicates with in the background and is limited to workarounds just like the Plugin.
It will be good to see more tracks in Biab along with re-gen any bars, but the other major things like mentioned would maybe be better/easier implementing in the Plugin, also implement play from RAM in the Plugin ?
I see the future in the Plugin that is not limited to workarounds and therefore can develop unhindered.

Yes, totally agree. If it is going to be ported/migrated/rewritten/whatever, then all that old code and DOS level restrictions, and using Integers instead of Reals in the software design has to be updated - not just ported across.

We're working from the same page

+1

I know I always say about the "old Delphi" but you see with the Plugin code the Mac/Win both look identical, both have the same features, both are released at the same time. This way the Plugin for both version could be released in Dec, the Mac Plugin would not have to wait for the BBW4.app into the next year.

RE-IMAGINING THE CHORD VIEW.

imagine these simple buttons at top of chord view in biab/rb,
(like one sees in google at top)
< >
like above to FLIP through chord pages.
the whole way choruses have worked in biab has kinda bugged me.
i think in terms of song start , intro, verse 1, chorus, verse 2 , chorus, lead break, another verse maybe, and then outtro to coda/fade whatever, and of course various variations of such.

a film person scoring music to picture probably thinks of "scenes".
(i'm no scoring for picture expert.)

BUT IT WOULD BE SO MUCH EASIER THIS WAY.
just ability to "flip" easily thru chord view pages.

maybe pipeline could do one of his lovely graphics so people can see the idea.
each chord view would be user annotated. eg verse 3, chorus 4, scene 7 whatever. so people could easily move around.

think of the benefits for people scoring for picture.
eg
"hmm gonna work on the big starcraft ufo battle today in scene 94 "
and flip to it etc. and the scene video is playing in the background.

at the moment in a complex rock song i have to set up sometimes a number of biab song files, and load up and work on them individually. and sort things out in the daw.

sorry pg, much as i love you guys this chorus approach as it stands irks me.

best
muso.
ps pipeline have at a graphic.

You have Edit > Song Form > Unfold
You have Layers > Section Text
if you could color the sections it would help.

pipeline.
yup i know bout unfolding.
i far prefer the idea of flipping thru chord pages.
think of it like flipping thru a music book.
or while a person is playing a concert grand piano, an assistant is turning over the pages of the music score etc.
same idea.
or think of a 3 ring binder with tabs.

this everything in one unfold doesnt do it for me.

that graphic you have ??
now add tabs or arrows at the top. so i can flip thru
different chord pages easily instead of one gigundous page.
you know like tabbed windows dialogues ?

best.
muso.

Are the pages the sections ?
so if we have 4 bars intro on page 1
16 bars of verse 1 on page 2
16 bars of chorus 1 on page 3
32 bars of verse 2 on page 4

if the section has more bars than the display is set to will it scroll down ?

so how do you know what is the next chord to play on the next page if you are playing along ? or is it only used for creating without anyone following the sheet ?

pipeline.
1. notice how at the top of this pg page it has a likkle house followed by biab windows thru about ?
ie various sections of the forum ?
now imagine INSTEAD < intro verse 1 chorus 1 verse 2 lead break
verse 3 outtro > but totally named by the user, and totally user configerable.
a TABBED DIALOG , and the arrows let one move backwards or forwards thru the tabs. rather like one used to go to/fro
on a cassette deck.
2. thus if the intro is only 4 bars say and verse 1
immediately follows it auto flips to the verse 1 chord page etc. each page is a limit of 255 bars , if indeed this is a tech limitation STILL. thus an intro or anything
(verse, lead break , outtro , whatever ) could be up to
255 bars. but if 255 goes the way of the dodo bird. grrreat.

SO IN YOUR EXAMPLE PL.
so if we have 4 bars intro on page 1
16 bars of verse 1 on page 2
16 bars of chorus 1 on page 3
32 bars of verse 2 on page 4

there would be 4 horizontal TABS. and 4 chord view pages.
intro.
verse 1.
chorus 1.
verse 2.
yes will scroll down, and could have a advance scroll feature whereby next page starts loading just before last page ends mate. so its look ahead.

best.
muso. (love your graphics.)

Yes I get what you mean about Tabs but I have Firefox open now with about 100 Tabs, if you want the nameable section Tabs you would need to have a scroll arrow at each end so when like me you have too many Tabs to fit across the screen you would need to scroll them, and for if you resize the GUI.
I added some Tabs to Rustyspoon# GUI example:

pipeline.
re 100 tabs.
thats why i included the scroll arrows < and >
yes like those tabs.
now could you do chord view graphic example with tabs at top and like this.
< tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab etc >
< and > are for scrolling.
i'm useless at graphics lol.

best.
muso.

I like the way the OP thinks! Innovative and forward.

However, in this case I'd prefer they leave the Chord Sheet view alone! Of all the various tools I use to make music this one is maybe the best for functionality. It fills most of the screen. It scrolls vertically as needed. It is easy to read quickly.

JohnJohnJohn
NO NO NO !
nothing would change for you.
you would just use the current lets call it the
classic chord view.
and ALSO there would still be a vertical scroll bar.
only diff would be tabs added at top plus <> scroll for those
of us that want this feature.(optional !!)

best.
muso

Yes you have the standard mode and tabbed mode.
This just tabs it into the Section Layer Text:

pipeline.
TOTALLY PERFECT !!
NAILED IT > A MILLION KUDOS.

now as its night here i can go sleepy byes happy lol.

look up dictionary what a musical chorus is.
its always been oddball imho how biab defines a chorus.
in biab world it seems to include verses too.
and intros and outtros.

whereas i think of choruses between solo singer verses.
for example hallelujah,hallelujah,hallelujah
is a chorus. not a verse.

the tabbed idea shown will now accommodate any music style ,
opera/freeform jazz/rock/chamber music/any style etc.
because the tabs are user named. and defined.
thats why johnjohnjohn surprised me.

anyone, name me a music style and i'll show you how the tabs
would be named and defined.

you are a talent pipeline.
best.
muso.

I will just hard code it in now then upload the new exe in about an hour..
lol if it was Reaper I could, and do thanks to scripting.

pipeline.
i realised an added bonus of the tabbed approach.

ponder this.

a tab equals a song section marker in daw multitrack software. (eg reaper vertical marker line.)
(we could even call the tab a SSM.)
for example in reaper i use markers extensively. an example.
intro/verse1/chorus1/short lead break1/verse2/chorus2/majorleadbreak/chorus3repeat/outtro
etc etc. all markers.
so for me my tabs in biab would reflect same.
ie 9 tabs. to correlate with 9 section markers in daw.

now consider i'm in the reaper daw (or any daw), and i'm going "nah i hate that lead guitar (from biab) at bar 80".
just go to the tab (named leadbreakbar80) in biab and regen that lead, and re-export into daw, and heres the KICKER, makes lining up in daw easier cos the markers in the daw match the tabs in biab,
et VOILA ! see what i mean ?
TOTAL CORRELATION TWEEN DAW MARKERS AND BIAB.

ps. in your graphic example , plz could you make the tab
lettering a bit bigger for us slighly vision impaired ?
loverly job PL.

i cant wait for pg to implement this feature in biab !!

best.
muso.
ps i hope pg staff read this.

In the save to MID option there is Write Section Text as Text Events
but it's not the Chord Sheet Section Layer Text, it's Notation Section Text.
That would give the section names in Reaper.

Bigger font ? sure:

pipeline.
god how i wish your tabbed dialog pg had for 2021 biab version.
beautifull. just beautifull.
I WANT IT NOW lol.

every happiness to you.
muso.

You could do it all in Reaper with Multiple Biab Plugins with the different sections, you could even have a tabbed GUI that would select each Plugin for the different Sections. You could get it to play back the sections in a linear mode. You could have them displayed in a Chord Sheet the same as Biab.

pipeline.
thats essentially how ive done it in the past.
one biab file for intro, another for verses, another for leads, another for out to coda etc etc. and for major song key changes even more biab files.
then i put it all together in reaper.
one reason i like reaper is i can move audio around easily.
and deep edit easily.

frankly i wish pg would hire you with all your graphics and other talents.

one option i was thinking of was like some other music software. linear horizontal layout of chords in bars
|| at the top. then going down left hand side 16 instrument traks.
sorta like this chord view idea. (i'm lousy at graphics)
-------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
chords> Dm|G|F|A5||C2|Dm7|F11|Bsus||Em|Asus|D7|Fm||etcetc
-------------------------------------------------------------
bass
drums
piano
gtr1
gtr2
mdy1
mdy2
solo1
solo2
etc etc
to 16 user defined
RT's and/or mids etc etc. and maybe a couple of audio traks.
per bar genning or group of bars of course etc etc.
ie linear approach starting at left and going to the right.
and vertical named bar lines etc etc with bar markers.
(similar to reapers song markers that i use extensively.)
note || = end of bar/beginning of next sorta idea.
no of chords per bar would be user defined.
totally flexible.
just drag chords to the chord line from a store of chords idea.

i would love to see one of your great graphics of above.
the vertical marker lines would be named intro, or verse 1 ,
or key changer, or whatever user defines.

best.
muso.

I asked for a linear chord track in RealBand years ago.
The trouble with Biab it was made for auto accompaniment and has been added and added onto the old 90's code,
that has limitation due to the DOS era.
The problem is so many users are stuck in Biab and it's slow to develop.
I'm trying to get PG to put all the generate code into the BB Plugin so it's not dependent on BBW4 (Biab) running in the background.
This will allow the BB Plugin to develop at lightning speed as it won't be hindered by the old 90's code issues.
So for all those that use Biab for tracks in their DAW, you should be pushing more this way, as it will be the future unless Biab gets a total rewrite.
But if you need Biab here's another way A VST to send Tempo/Play/Stop/Loop/Continue to main Biab app from DAW

I got frustrated with it all so I went to Reaper and I can make it do what Biab can't just with scripting, no waiting 10 years for something to be added or fixed. I made scripts to integrate Biab and BB Plugin into Reaper.

There's an example below all done with scripting, so you can have multiple Region(Chord) tracks same with markers.
There's a chord sheet to display the region chords, it can switch from track to track (group to group), you could switch from section to section with all sections starting at bar 1 and just solo the parent track in the section group.

pipeline.
can ANY software do the linear chord idea i outlined above ?

ive never looked into it, but can rapid composer or capn chords or scaler ?
or any others ?
i just want a simple song creation life. lol.
its impressive what youve done in reaper.

fyi years ago when i was useing pg powertraks i used to get all sorts of "snarky" comments. but while other people had trouble doing a song in their "fancy rigs".
i was pumping out songs.

then when reaper came out i got the same "disdain" for telling everyone it was gonna change things. lol.
now the big boys are useing it includeing good old "auntie beeb" i hear. and radio people , i guess cos of ripple editing etc etc.
then you had people , like some i know calling biab "elevator music" until i showed them a rock song being done in it.
"oh wow you can do THAT". lol.
it baffles me how some music people are set in their ways.
so i always keep an open mind.

best.
silly old muso.

Not sure what you want exactly, I thought you just meant a horizontal chord track ??
Rapid composer is the best one to try, it will work as a VST in Biab.
It has song sections that you can rearrange/copy to play in any order.
It has chords/progression you can drag n drop.
It has audio tracks that are a work in progress.

pipeline.
(btw i was telling my wife bout your brilliant graphics and showing her. she asked if you worked on pipelines ? i'm curious too lol.)

yes looks like Rcomposer i should try.
yes i want that linear approach.
chords at top , instruments down left hand side.

if the aggressive reaper devs ever get into auto accompaniement integration features, watch out world lol.

best.
muso.

Surfing the pipeline in Hawaii

pipeline.
your user name of course.
fyi i scuba dived in hawaii. loved it.

the ventures did the pipeline song.
sadly they have lost some members in past years.
its amazeing how few traks they had then and what they accomplished on those surf songs.

ive been checking out Rcomposer.
do you use vsti's with midi in RC ? what do you use ?

best.
muso.

You use the soundfonts inside the RCvst or your own soundfonts you add to the list.
The best way is Load KV Element into Biab then drag the RCvst3 into Element, if you are running Biab as admin you will need to drag it in using a file explorer running as admin (like Explorer++).
This way you can route midi channels out of RCvst to Virtual Instruments.
Make sure you have the EXT button top left in Element on to sync.
RapidComposer is always having sales, see the News page.

And I just looked there and:
November 16, 2020: RapidComposer v4.0 released with 25% intro offer!
You can upgrade anytime to the full version just paying the difference.
http://www.musicdevelopments.com/news.html

If you get it, get the Beta version after and go to to the Beta forum, if you suggest features they are usually implemented very quick.

Interesting ideas but how about considering when you're in Reaper or any DAW and go "nah i hate that lead guitar (from biab) at bar 80" KNOWING that using your current workflow you've detailed above of saving each section of your song as an BIAB SGU file that you open in your DAW that you can edit and review and regenerate those saved files from within BIAB BEFORE you commit to moving them to your DAW. You can save a ton of time and work.

BIAB has long had a feature that allows you to make a playlist of SGU files, edit the key signature, tempo and delegate the bars and number of bars to play and even have BIAB construct up to 16 bars of transitions between each section.

For instance, you create a sgu of bars
1-4 named Intro
5-12 named Verse 1
13-21 named Chorus
22-26 named Outro to play into a 4 bar ending...

You will have 4 individual SGU files playing in sequence your song project.
If you don't like the solo in the Chorus, you can edit it by opening up just the SGU file containing the Chorus material, edit and change by regenerating only the guitar solo part, save the file using the same name of the original file (overwrite the original) and when you recreate the Medley, the new edited soloist will play leaving all of the other sections intact. This feature allows for Bar To Bar regeneration in BIAB as well as allows the user to hear his entire project before committing to moving the various SGU files over to a DAW for further processing.

This is the Song Medley Feature of BIAB

It is accessed from Tools\Song Form\Medley Maker
Medley Maker creates a complete SGU file from the list of songs that can be rendered, saved or both...

It's simple, easy, stable and operates within your current workflow.

You Should try it.

Here's a screen shot of a Medley Chord sheet I created using your file saving workflow to create a 16 bar complete song from 3 saved files.

Here's a screen shot of the individual song files and an MP3 of the Chord Chart.

Medley 123

Hello Simon,
Hello the Team,

I would like that the Biab vst can insert in our daw, a midi track taking up whole chords of the melody with three or four notes not sliced. to allow us to easily create sound layers.

Maybe more orchestral realtracks (style quarted strings)

For biab radio, it would be interesting to have a different style for everything that does not correspond to country, rock or jazz or Latin.

Thanks in advance

Kindly regard
Dero13
alias JaniJackFlash

charlie.
i'm well aware of those features, and many thanks for your effort.
BUT what i want is on page 2 of this thread, pipelines
graphic in thread no #623647 - 11/17/20.
a TABBED CHORD VIEW. pl's graphic is exactly what i want.

best.
oldmuso.

I understand. I was addressing that you can build, audition and correct your saved sgu files before you export them and find out you need to redo something. I wasn't sure you were aware that could be done in BIAB before exporting as you didn't mention it as part of your work flow. Having tabbed chord view could be beneficial to some for sure. I use Section Text and Part Markers and save sections as sgu files currently.

What specifically is the problem you have with Delphi code? I'd love to know what you feel it's limitations are.

Don't ask me, ask every single DAW company why they don't use Delphi and why they have identical Mac/Win versions released at the same time ?

If you want to "a complete rewrite" you could use Delphi, sure, but why ?

"unless you're coders are not familiar with Delphi. "

Yes that is a good idea let's write it all in Delphi Plugin and all, every man and his dog is familiar with Delphi because they all learn it now, this way we can still have Biab RealBand and BB Plugin in Delphi in 2050. My Niece is at UNI and that is the first thing she learned.
Sorry I think I have been at it too long and get a bit confused, silly me



I see the Delphi VST you made here, Thank you sooo much:
A VST to send Tempo/Play/Stop/Loop/Continue to main Biab app from DAW


I would have respect for you if I saw you helped in any way to fix issues or create any thing to help Biab users, as with the vast programming knowledge you have I can't see why you would not do this ????
But when I look I see you have given 0, F all, but always asking.
Why ? Maybe you are just a Master Debater ?

Please guys, be mindful of forum guidelines about getting personal in your arguments. No need.

I'm still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with Delphi, and judging by your word salad response ... so are you.

Ok I will retract everything I said and do as you suggest, end of story.

Yes that is a good idea let's write it all in Delphi Plugin and all, every man and his dog is familiar with Delphi because they all learn it now, this way we can still have Biab RealBand and BB Plugin in Delphi in 2050. My Niece is at UNI and that is the first thing she learned.
Sorry I think I have been at it too long and get a bit confused, silly me

Yours sincerely,
pipeline.

Style Demos Audio - optional download (Full) (6.5 GB)

That is old unless there is an update it ?
The way I did it was save all the style list to text (option at the bottom) then imported to Excel, removed all columns but the style name, added .wma on the end and the pg site link where it previews the demos from when you are on the net in front of the styles_name.wma
saved as html and downloaded with a download manager.

pipeline.
thanks. that excel good idea.
i get loads of song ideas just listening to examples on the pg site. its a v nice resource.
merry xmas.
muso.

The way I would find styles, was copy D:\bb\RealTracks\Data\Style Demos Audio
to a thumb drive and play them back randomly in the car on long drives, when I hear one I like I look at the name in the display and make a note.
This is a directory print, there are just over 8K in the list:

Here's an update, just remove the .txt