WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW.

Posted by: justanoldmuso

WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/01/20 04:16 AM

WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW.
fellow users please follow my logic. and see if this make sense. (please read wish #1 first. because there is linkeage to this wish here.}
1. in songwriting a song creator would normally think of various song "sections". start/intro/verse1/chorus1/music break1/verse2/chorus2/lead break/chorus3/outtro/song end whatever as but one of many examples of different
possible arrangements.
includeing bridges/key changes/instrument changes etc etc
you could have repeat refrains/choruses to start a song for example,and/or at end, or have various band only or orchestra endings. solo instruments etc etc.

to summarise LOTS OF DIFFERENT CHORD ARRANGEMENT SCENARIOS.

thousands in fact. not just the typical pop or rock arrangement.
for example jazzers might riff off a jam involving advanced chord structures.
other styles might involve exotic chord structures.
then , lets not forget also MUSIC FOR PICTURE. and the concept of FILM SCENES.
does one see where i am going with this ?
(so lets imagine the old "chorus biab idea" is replaced by a "biab song section idea".}

it means CHORD VIEW has to service lots of DIFFERENT TYPES OF USERS AND THEIR CHORD ARRANGEMENT NEEDS.

2. THUS., does it not make sense to make the chord view screen VERY FLEXIBLE ?
BECAUSE OF SO MANY CHORD ARRANGEMENT POSSIBILITIES ?
would it also be fair to say THAT, it would be nice if the different chord sections in biab, matched the musicians daw markers, thus makeing importation of a trak or clip from biab an easy thing to accomplish ?
ie the SONG SECTIONS IN BIAB MATCH PERFECTLY WITH THE MULTITRACK SOFTWARE SONG SECTIONS MARKERS.
this would have so many ease of use benefits.

3. GIVEN THE ABOVE. i offer two perspectives on how a new chord view might be designed,
so users can discuss. as follows.
A. LINEAR CHORD VIEW OPTION. and
B. TABBED CHORD VIEW OPTION.

lets look at both options.
A. LINEAR CHORD VIEW OPTION.
in this option the chord view would mimic a typical multitrack software display.
(reaper,pro tools,cubase,mixcraft etc etc.) EXCEPT with an interesting difference.
chords would be laid out in a horizontal time line. and vertically on extreme left hand side of display
would be each RT or midi trak or user trak, whatever that trak IS !(even a loop).
(my apologies as i'm useless at graphics, hopefully the talented pipeline can do a graphic.)
but i hope you get the idea.(note. chords can go anywhere in a bar. note also all shots/holds/
other biab nomenclature would apply as currently. eg F.d would mean play drums.
in the example, for example, A7.b is the bass on its own noodling around the A7 chord.
NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. could have 8 chords in a bar if you wish etc etc. just a bar regen if you wish. )
please NOTE , the blank area of linear chord view would be for USER OVERRIDES !
total FLEXIBILITY.

EG.(|| = bar start and end.)
<< HORIZ CHORD TRACK (like multitrack software>>>>>>>>>>
CHORDS> ||E.d,E.d,Dm7,D||C,C||G9,Bb||A7.b,F2|| etc etc >>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
drum rt *
bassrt *
pianomid *
gtruser *
etc *
etc *
to
16
traks.
now imagine vertical marker lines like in a daw imposed on the above graphic user defined markers.
whether a intro or verse or bridge or lead or ANYTHING. just like daw software.
THUS CORRELATION BETWEEN BIAB AND DAW. by the way, the blank area is used for bar overrides, and individual bar re-gens etc etc.. and F5 feature etc etc.

B. TABBED CHORD VIEW OPTION.
this is where pipelines previous wonderfull graphic comes in.
he added tabs to the current chord view.
(PIPELINE PLEASE ADD YOUR GREAT NEW CHORD VIEW TABBED GRAPHIC TO THIS THREAD. I WILL TRY BUT MIGHT FAIL.)
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=14844&filename=BB-Tabbed-Chord-Sheet-Sections.gif
WOW I MANAGED TO INCLUDE THE GRAPHIC.
its lovely what pipeline did.
tabs are user defined. not fixed. a tab can be anything. once again mirroring the daw software arrangement. now this makes biab very flexible, and any arrangement can accomodate.
in addition, music for picture people getting down a rough music idea.
each tab could relate to a particular scene in a film , or section of a scene etc etc.
the word "chorus" {in biab currently} would be replaced by the word "section".
(can have many user defined sections in a song up to 255 bars in a song section, IF 255 is still a hard limit !!.)
once again the tabs would match time markers in the daw/film software being used.
I REITERATE ONCE AGAIN. ALL MUSIC GENRES COULD BE ACCOMODATED.
ALL SONG ARRANGEMENTS COULD BE ACCOMODATED.
the tabs are totally flexible as to how they are named by a user, just like marker names
in a daw multitrack software.

the above i have thought of at length over the years.
feel free to add your own ideas.
if you think ive missed anything. feel free to question.
please note, the old classic biab current chord view would still be available for those that
still want to use it.
i sincerely hope my suggestions make day to day sense.
(please note , the above suggestion for chord view would also apply to REALBAND.
ie a new chord view for RB.)

best.
muso.
Posted by: Rustyspoon#

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 10:47 AM

+1
Nice! I like that pipeline's tabbed rendering. And especially now when we got so many extra tracks, it could be a very useful and cool feature. A totally re-imagined workflow. And I assume it will work both ways, for folks who like things on one page as it stands and those who would want to get creative.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 03:18 PM

rusty.
exactly. and if people want to stick with the current chord view classic way. they could.
merry xmas.
muso.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 05:02 PM

As mentioned in Rusty's post, here's a way you can do it below.
For Plugin 1 you insert a region in Reaper for 4 bars called Intro, Verse 1 8 bars, Chorus 1 8 bars, etc..
In the Region Manger window you can select any song section and it will zoom that section to fit the timeline, select that track and open only that section BB Plugin with chords.
You can create a GUI to get it to do whatever you like.
You don't have to wish for this, you can do it today.

Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 05:58 PM

Pipeline.
i really appreciate your problem solving intelligence.
but lets take a song i did recently where i had to resort to useing 10 seperate biab "GU's saved.
it was a complex song.
ie intro followed by different verses/choruses/leads/outtro etc etc.

in this case i will now be useing 10 instances of the biab plug in. am i correct ? its gonna get screen complex.
thus its another workaround. i'm just replaceing 10 biab GU's saved with 10 plug ins.
INSTEAD OF 10 NICE TABS IN BIAB CHORD VIEW.

also, wont i end up in reaps with a trak "stepped effect" as follows in reaps ?

INTRO VERSE1 BREAK1 VERSE2
----------
----------
----------
----------


ok the text editor wouldnt let me build a "stepped effect".
plz imagine it. going left to right and down like a staircase.
see what i mean ? or am i wrong ?
instead of a contiguous linear trak for each instrument ?
eg 18 traks crude example graphic.
INTRO|VERSE1|CHORUS1|VERSE2|CHORUS2|LEAD|VERSE3|CHORUS3|LEAD OUTTRO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

where ------- = trak waveforms.
see what i mean ? the above is what i want. as per normal.
also wont i have to wait for waveforms to generate ?
whereas currently i dont when in biab chord view.
until i finally create wav's.

merry xmas.
muso.
ps its night sleep time here. lol.
i'll check back on the morrow.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 07:55 PM

See if this will work for you.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2j7z5odmle7o9z/BBvst-Song-Sections.mp4?dl=0
The only issue at the moment, the latest version of the Plugin is fading the last beat off for some reason. I reported this.
And, as mentioned it will only show 1 vst at a time for what section you are on.

Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/07/20 11:30 PM

Here are 10 BB Plugins song sections.
New sections can be made by simply duplicating a track/s.
Tracks can be put in a folder.
It will show the chords of selected track only.
It can zoom selected section.
If you don't like a section, just regenerate all tracks for that section or a single instrument or a different style/key.
This is a lot quicker just regenerating the section of the song you need and not the whole BB song.
Each can have 16 sends.
You don't need to drag the wavs into Reaper, you can send them out to FX then render the Reaper project.
You can use the same track template for any project.
The magic in all this is being able to set the sync offset to start the BB Plugin at any bar, 1000 bars no problem.


There needs to be an option in the BB Plugin to save the tracks it's currently using to a selected project folder, that the BB Plugin will then read them from.
See resources in bottom pic.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/08/20 05:59 AM

Pipeline.
you are a standout. amazeing creativity.
and your brilliant way of providing solutions.
that reaps report is very interesting.

but i'm at the tail end of finishing off a very very demanding rock song right now.
how i solved the problem of such a demanding song was haveing
10 biab gu's. each one corresponding to a marker tab in
reaps , so lining up audio manually was a breeze.

ive decided to take a month off music to refresh myself.
i need a break frankly. i'm tired.
i have looked in detail at biab 2021, and the new features just dont meet my needs.

i really admire everything you do, and wish you the
greatest xmas/happiness.
muso.
ps. re you said.
"There needs to be an option in the BB Plugin to save the tracks it's currently using to a selected project folder, that the BB Plugin will then read them from."
THATS WHY I MADE WISH #2. save feature.
down further in this wish sub forum.
see RETHINK SAVE FEATURE.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/09/20 08:52 PM

I think I need a good break from it all also.

This is all working out good now, I should be able to use this workflow myself.
I made it bring up the chords when you click that song section by reading the section name then selecting the track with the same name.
If Biab had scripting you wouldn't have all these issues and disappointments.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/or5bdmg63vgd1k4/BBvst-Song-Sections-10xBBvst-Auto.mp4?dl=0

and I can put all the tracks in a folder:
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/09/20 10:42 PM

Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/10/20 06:24 AM

Pipeline.
i think why some users get "frustrated" sometimes is they love the product, and see what a magnificent product it could be with a few additions.
its not out of being nasty or mean on purpose.
also ive found the people at PG very nice to deal with over the years.

let me ask you this, and please be honest.
do you think i'm being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for the biab next 2022 release ?
(ie changeing chorus concept to song sections, tabs in chord view, rethinking save functionality.)

btw i was lousy at surfing lol. but ok at scuba. absolutely loved it. and loved HAWAII and the islands.

frankly this xmas , my wife and i are thankfull i came through some very difficult surgery this year,
and am totally good now. and still rocking out like crazy.

merry xmas.
muso.
ps some on the fly surf lyrices.lol.

i gonna be brave, go surf those waves.
overcome those pipes, morning, noon , and night.
when i'm on that "board" , i never get "bored".

i reach the shore, but i still want more. always more. always more.
back out again; sunshine or rain.
cos its my life, and only right.
its the way to be, surfing those waves, its always gonna be, the life for me.
chorus
surfing those waves.
surfing those waves,
here comes another, always surfing those waves.

(sorry if you hate the off the cuff lyrics.)
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/10/20 11:13 AM

Quote:
i think why some users get "frustrated" sometimes is they love the product, and see what a magnificent product it could be with a few additions.
its not out of being nasty or mean on purpose.

That says it all !
Quote:
also ive found the people at PG very nice to deal with over the years.
YES ! they are and I feel bad when I go off but it is as you say through frustration.
Quote:
do you think i'm being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for the biab next 2022 release ?
NO ! you should not have to wait years and years to get it, if all.
He who has ears will hear.
I heard you and said that's a good idea, but I don't have the source for Biab and don't know the Delphi. If I did I would just implement it and upload as I do in Reaper.
AGAIN, if they made that simple BB SYNC VST you could make those Song Section Chord Display Tabs in Reaper and Biab will simply follow wherever you click in Reaper.
Any chord change updates could transfer over as you click Save in Biab, Reaper will read the saved SGU and change the chord display instantly.
This one's done and ready to go for the BB Plugin:
FULL SCREEN PIC
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/11/20 02:54 AM

Pipeline.
thanks . i didnt think i was being unreasonable in my 3 wishes for biab i posted.
well the gear is disassembled now, cos i am moveing to a different area of the house for 2021 .
it forces me also to take a xmas break.
my prob is too many songs going around my silly brain.
ive done a slew of songs over the years useing reaps plus biab.
i just wish i didnt have to use workarounds with biab. implementation of my wishes would really help.

the new audient evo interface , that my dear wife bought me for xmas arrived.
but i cant open till xmas. lol. that was the deal. lol.
i'm curious to see how good the mic pre's are cos audient is legendary.
in summary lots to do in jan 2021. more songs.

btw. do you ever use these big boy studio tweaker tools ?
dawbench (very very interesting. i posted links in the pg tech sos forum.), and resplendence for analysing possible
issues, as well as RTL utility for round trip latency ?

i'm not haveing any win issues. maybe cos i keep the recording win pc off the net.
on dawbench are radio shows includeing interviews with reaps creator JF, and also microsoft,
and other interesting stuff.

a very merry xmas to you.
muso.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/16/20 03:06 AM

Here it is in Biab just using it for section chord display, chords can be copied to from the BB Plugin.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/18/20 09:36 AM

pipeline.
now take a break. youve done enough.
you have a merry one .
muso.
Posted by: Roland S

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/26/20 10:41 PM

I also struggle with complex song structures, especially when further developing a song from a pre-recorded jam session using the Plugin in my DAW.
For doing so I use a linear song structure without repeats.
Nevertheless it is hard to keep an overview of what to keep and what to drop and where chord changes should happen. Not to talk about the endless time consumed for re-generation and cross-checks of the changes.

If to start with some simple and easy to implement solution, the following solution would already help me a lot:

I would like to mark the background of particular areas in the chord sheet, using different colors. That should happen completely independent from the markers at the beginning of the bars.It is just meant as orientation for the target song structure. It shouldn't influence the track generation in any way.

I could then develop some overall song structure, using different colors for intended intros, verses, choruses, solo parts, bridges and endings. Afterwards I would then adjust the chords accordingly, by changing the chords, inserting and deleting bars, copying the desired chord progressions from other places etc.

I think it should be possible to add such a useful feature with little effort, as it just affects the chord sheet representation and nothing else.
The data for the "intended structure" may come from an optional add-on file stored next to the .sgu. This would ensure also compatibility with older BiaB versions, that don't know how to deal with this information.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/26/20 10:55 PM

That has been requested many times:
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/27/20 07:18 AM

That looks terrific, Pipeline. I would caution for the benefit of those who are colorblind that the choice of colors should be able to be set by users. A member of my family sees the first two colors as the same shade of gray.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/27/20 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
That looks terrific, Pipeline. I would caution for the benefit of those who are colorblind that the choice of colors should be able to be set by users. A member of my family sees the first two colors as the same shade of gray.


Good point Matt. I have a strong Deutan (red-green) color blindness and many shades look the same to me.

As an option I would like to see a thick black border around series of measures instead of colors, much like the boarders in Excel.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/27/20 09:13 AM

Most apps have color pickers these days with millions of colors to chose from:
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/27/20 09:38 AM

I think that would be enough.
Posted by: BryMusic

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/27/20 05:23 PM

I love the idea of "tabs in the chord chart for representing sections". That would be a great addition to the product (which I've used for only two days now, but see right away the limitations on how song structure is currently handled.)
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 05:12 AM

Does anybody use the existing song structure capability of BIAB? BIAB does everything that's been listed as wishful enhancements in this thread.

Once the song sections have been input, using the Medley Maker, the sections can be seamlessly moved, duplicated in any order desired...
Posted by: Roland S

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 07:53 AM

I wasn't aware that this feature had been requested so many times before. I'm only working with BiaB since a year now. I just wonder why it hasn't been implemented yet.

Obviously the colors for the chord sheet areas should be optional and user selectable. The colorpicker suggested by Pipeline I have seen in many other applications and it seems to be a straight forward and intuitive approach to me. Any new song would start with a white sheet anyway, leaving it up to the user to mark certain areas by colors, if desired.

No matter what such markers would look like, the important point of such a feature would be the independence of those markers from the real song structure used by BiaB for the song generation. That's what provides the flexibility for their usage.
- Video makers could use it e.g. to mark the time positions of particular film scenes
- arrangers could use it to mark solos, areas they want to keep or drop or whatever else they find worth to highlight.
Posted by: Roland S

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 08:14 AM

I havn't come across the Medley Maker yet, but it looks like being worth digging a bit deeper.
I just wonder how to get there in a DAW/Plugin context.
BiaB standalone wouldn't be an option for me, having already dozens of recorded tracks for a song in my DAW.
Usually I use BiaB only to embellish the songs, e.g. by creating additional instrument tracks or replacing existing ones. For doing so I use the DAW plugin.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 11:35 AM

Charlie.
with respect, in any exchange of ideas , one always has to look at the other persons viewpoint.
believe me, time and again ive tried to find a use for the medley maker.
AND DESPERATELY TRIED MIGHTYLY TO SEE YOUR VIEWPOINT. MANY MANY TIMES !
but it just doesnt meet my needs.
PLEASE look at pipelines graphic with TABS AT THE TOP OF CHORD VIEW. I FAR PREFER IT.

actually i'm surprised you wouldnt want this tabbed chord view, cos it DOES follow IN THIS CASE YOUR IDEA OF DOING ALL OF A SONG IN BB. and would lessen daw interraction.

the whole idea of tabs in the chord view, is an organised approach (please read up thread) so each tab in chord view
equates to a marker in ones daw. for example if i want a tab in bb that says verse 3 or outtro or whatever
that corresponds to the same marker tab in the daw. (in my case in reaper verse 3 or outtro whatever the case.)

I KNOW YOU SAY ONE CAN DO ALL IN BB CURRENTLY , BUT IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE WITH RESPECT. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.
lets look at why , in my case i use reaper with BB providing the RT's etc. WHY ??
1. i can move audio around way more easily than i can in bb.
2. i can test out plug ins much more easily. easily swapping them in/out.
3. i can lay down traks/mix much more easily, and finesse things like audio clip fade ins/outs and clip properties .
as well as use automation and so many other features. just to name a few. and my workflow is faster and more fluid.

THUS I USE BB FOR WHAT ITS BEST AT.
AND REAPS FOR WHAT ITS BEST AT.
PLEASE LOOK AT PIPELINES TABBED CHORD VIEW GRAPHIC.

happy new year.
muso.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 11:57 AM

I couldn't remember where I posted that so uploaded again
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 03:06 PM

<< 1. i can move audio around way more easily than i can in bb. >>
That's good but many folks are unaware of the multiple ways to copy/move and paste that BIAB has. I speculate you're familiar with your DAW workflow to a greater degree than you're familiar with all of BIAB's methods because most of these methods happen virtually before any audio is actually saved to a file and it's really easy and fast in BIAB and my comments are intended to inform users that may not depend on a DAW to complete their projects but prefer to do as much as they can in BIAB without the need for other unnecessary software. One can read through all of this post's comments and assume that BIAB cannot accomplish these tasks in it's present and past forms which is not true. I agree that tabs may be a beneficial enhancement, but the conversation has been there's a problem and deficiency in BIAB and the program needs to be re-coded and offers of users ideas for solutions to a problem BIAB doesn't have.

<< 2. i can test out plug ins much more easily. easily swapping them in/out. >>
OK. But BIAB is fully capable of working with plug-ins without issue.

<< 3. I can lay down traks/mix much more easily,and finesse things like audio clip fade ins/outs and clip properties . >>
That's likely true because you do most of the mute, back to normal and volume functions which are post manual audio selection actions rather than allow the BIAB algorithm to see these functions before making audio selections the same as the algorithm handles shots, holds, rests, chord changes, pushes and instrument changes. These are pre programmed audio selections and the BIAB algorithm provides pro quality level fades, transitions, and instrument changes.

<< ... use automation and so many other features. just to name a few. and my workflow is faster and more fluid. >>
Not likely. Just the time it takes for rendering, exporting and importing into your DAW can take longer than inputting a verse Chord Chart in BIAB. Doing so in BIAB renders in seconds and does not require saving a track as an audio file which is a required task to export, import and move a BIAB generated track into any and every DAW. I agree that these issues are more visible in a DAW and also intuitive. However, particularly the audio selection difference of programming transitions, instrument changes and fades effects what raw RealTrack audio the BIAB selects for solo intro's and ending's and essentially selects audio that was recorded for transitions, intro's and ending's and also applies top grade, pro level cross fades and can eliminate most if not all of some cut/paste work in your DAW because BIAB is programmed to create smooth transitions whereas in most cases tracks are sent out to DAWs before BIAB has done all it can do to a track.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 03:54 PM

I still laugh when i see this
BB AND THE WORKAROUNDS
If biab was the only app invented I would be able to use that from start to finish.
It's hard to get users out of Biab, it has been said "Biab is not a DAW"
but I think it's moving that way now for that reason.

This is the most simplest thing
A VST to send Tempo/Play/Stop/Loop/Continue to main Biab app from DAW
that will solve so many issues !
If I could script that up I would of done it by now and uploaded it.
When you click on a song section in the DAW it would automatically go there in Biab.
You can highlight a section of chords in Biab then drag all the instruments out into the DAW of that section.
It would open up so many more possibilities.
Watch Biab-Transport-VST-2.mp4
Download Biab-Transport-VST-2.mp4
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 04:51 PM

Charlie.
over the years ive turned lots of people onto bb/pg.
ive done a slew of songs firstly with bb and powertraks, then, later with bb/rb and reaper.
but at the same time i'm a realist, and realise bb's positives and also its foibles/workarounds.
ive just been patient too long/years in needing certain features for MY WORKFLOW.

pipeline "gets" what i'm saying. because he knows reaper and bb.

i love bb, i really do, but i'm aware also of its limits/foibles/ and workarounds which pipeline and i have discussed.
and NO , i dont want to put new people off bb either. i love it, foibles and all.
maybe your a better man than i , in that you CAN do it all in bb. sorry, but i cant. i want a nice workflow useing both the positives of reaps and the positives of bb.

as verne has discovered, and commented on , the tabs feature i requested would be an advantage in song arrangement. and would make me also very happy.

i think charlie, its just a situation where we have to agree to disagree, as i think our workflows are different.
charlie i wish you only happiness. and possibly we can agree on other
things in the future.
have a happy.
sorryicantagreemuso.lol.

pipeline.
yep thats EXACTLY what i want. layers are usefull, but not like your tabbed graphic.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 05:55 PM

<< I KNOW YOU SAY ONE CAN DO ALL IN BB CURRENTLY , BUT IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE WITH RESPECT. >>

Not to argue, but it is that simple with all respect to you. Everyone knows what a Part Marker is and as I've demonstrated, they can be placed onto every Bar of a Chord Chart. For those that have purchased or upgraded to BIAB 2021, Part Markers have been enhanced to perform the specific task of segregating and identifying song form sections while not affecting the Style. The user has the choice between the two.

It is a simple process to select a section and copy or move it at will.

Everything I've described and demonstrated are Features of BIAB and not work arounds... What I do in BIAB is not advanced, complicated or convoluted. I simply use BIAB features you and another DAW enthusiasts haven't tried or explored their potential. It's easy to see from your posts your workflow has long been to start a project in BIAB and then move rendered tracks to a DAW. Nothing wrong with that but you do need to understand that what's your comfort level and workflow is not the only and single correct way to construct a song using BIAB and there are many users that don't follow that process. It's only fair to them and PG Music developers to share BIAB can do what you're presenting as a 'new' option but in reality has been an option for years. I have no problem with your suggestion and likely the same as you and many others, I'll benefit from it. So let me say clearly, I support your suggestion but think your assertion that what I've shown is somehow exposing limits/foibles/ and workarounds is due to you being unfamiliar with long standing BIAB features that don't fit with your particular workflow.

I have no issue at all with your wishlist item of tabs and totally agree that would be a nice enhancement but that's not why I made my post. Our workflows aren't always different. I also move BIAB tracks to DAWs for projects that need that type of processing and polish. I don't think there's anything wrong with your workflow at all. It's a very popular way for those that use it. I also think you'd be amazed at the efficient level BIAB can replicate and produce audio tracks at a much faster and professional level than you've imagined so far.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/28/20 06:45 PM

A few points to consider regarding workflow comments. Different DAWs have different capabilities, strengths and weaknesses. What may seem intuitive and easy in one DAW may be impossible or cumbersome in another.

In this instance the conversation is mostly about arrangement tools. Both JustAnOldMuso and Pipeline are comfortable with how the arrangement tools in Reaper work. They implied BiaB doesn't have arrangement tools so they want the features added to Band-in-a-Box.

Charlie demonstrated BiaB DOES have the desired features and stated they are easy to use. They may be but they are not obvious or well labeled. Nor are they grouped together into a cohesive arrangement tool.

What if there was one drop down menu selection or a button called "Arranger" that grouped together access to all the arranger tools presently available in Band-in-a-Box? Would that work?
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/29/20 03:44 AM

Charlie.
ok. lets debate this further. a la university. i miss those days. lol.
your position, correct me if i'm wrong , is. it can all be done in bb.
if that was the case, why are you seeing bb users useing other compositional products ? eg mac people useing performer and logic and others.
some people (eg bb users) are useing recent entrants like rapid composer, scalar etc etc.
and more and more i'm seeing compositional apps starting to appear for phones and tablets.
to be fair, you might reply, "they havent discovered all the things bb can do". thats fair comment.

BUT, actually charlie i'm trying to protect pg long term.
follow my logic.
there are many what if scenarios for the future in a strategic marketing sense.
1. as bb moves into the daw space; what if a major daw vendor with loads of tech talent decided to move into the
bb accompaniement space ? some daws already have a basic chord trak for example.
2. what would happen if a daw vendor found a way to directly read bb styles, and load up the audio ? with a chord trak ? and "bobs your uncle. charlies your aunt".
see where i'm going with this ? see what i'm getting at ?
the strategic implications are obvious. its a very competitive market.
thus i'm worried for my friend bb that ive known for ages.

in summary, my position is that pg/bb must move to a more aggressive development cycle, so some users dont feel the need to look around for other products.

to give you an idea of my own frustrations. last night i'm working on a song in chord view.
right cliked over a marker and one can choose a letter. then i'm thinking "what use are letters of the alphabet to me ?" it would make more sense if the marker lettering said V3 say for verse 3. or B1 for first bridge etc etc that could be typed in by the user ie flexible.
IE LARGE LETTERS. because i find the text above the chord too
small. cos of my eyesight.
charlie, its little things like this that bug me.

HNyear.
muso.

jim fogle.
actually just my 3 wishes in the wishlist would make me a very happy lad. and more rock RT's lol.
you are correct , maybe its how things are organised.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/29/20 08:52 AM

<< your position, correct me if i'm wrong , is. it can all be done in bb. >>
Yes. my position is it can all be done in BIAB. Not only is it my position, it's indisputable, demonstrable and has in fact, been doable for many years.

<< if that was the case, why are you seeing bb users useing other compositional products ? eg mac people using performer and logic and others. >>
I can't speak for others nor speculate for their workflow choices nor does it matter. BIAB is one of many, many compositional tools. BIAB is a choice for composition, accompaniment, education, learning theory, creating backing tracks, creating Karaoke, soundtracks and more. It is a fair and obvious statement to say "they haven't discovered all the things bb can do". None of us have completely I guess. The most common estimate I see here on the forum is users suggest 10% of BIAB's total capability is all they use.

Like many users, I also use DAW's and other software as well as guitar, keyboard and piano for composition. That's a moot point for this discussion because this discussion is about BIAB's capability as a complete and singular, stand alone software program. There will always be tasks and procedures a DAW or software is the 'better' tool for a particular technique.

<< BUT, actually charlie i'm trying to protect pg long term.
follow my logic. >>

I appreciate your logic but I have to say that in my opinion, it's misplaced logic. It's always futile to concern yourself with any matter one has absolutely no control over. As far as I know, you have no demonstrable control with PG Music. You may be developing scenarios and solutions to problems that internal monitoring by PG staff doesn't expose or validate. Your every opinion, scenario and solution is a personal perception, conjecture and supposition.

In contrast, if you want to be an actual help to do what you can to promote BIAB/RB is rather than create solutions to problems BIAB doesn't have and wish for things that BIAB can do and criticize PG developers as antiquated, behind the times and out of touch with your perceived BIAB target market -- I suggest you explore what BIAB does have, test the features, adapt to what the features offer with and without the inclusion of other software and then pass these techniques to the existing and prospective customer base and target market. Use the product, learn it and make suggestions to enhance existing features and post new uses and alternate ways to apply them to your workflow. More people can immediately and directly benefit from those suggestions than will ever benefit from suggestions PG Music may never adopt or implement.

Regarding my thoughts of your marketing scenarios that some other software is going to steal the BIAB niche from under them...

Unless you have stake in the company, you 1) have no authority, voice or company commitment to you. 2) In the decades since the introduction of BIAB, no other software has come close to replicating BIAB. 3) Over that same period of time, dozens of high quality, multi featured DAWs have come onto the market and all of these companies are surviving nicely together. 4) Real competition would likely do more good for future growth of the BIAB suite of products than your concerns will ever generate.

<< ... my own frustrations. last night i'm working on a song in chord view.
right clicked over a marker and one can choose a letter. then i'm thinking "what use are letters of the alphabet to me ?" it would make more sense if the marker lettering said V3 say for verse 3. or B1 for first bridge etc etc that could be typed in by the user ie flexible. IE LARGE LETTERS. because i find the text above the chord too
small. cos of my eyesight.

charlie, its little things like this that bug me. >>


As it is with BIAB today - BIAB offers colors, Letters, Text and Numbers. You can use the Part Marker "Bar based section letters" feature and with the 2021 version, make the measures, Part Markers and letters/numbers quite large.
So, you should be pro-active to what BIAB is rather than worrying by upgrading and diving into what BIAB really is rather than what you think it's not...

Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/29/20 10:32 AM

charlie.
from my end i feel this discussion has run its course.
i will not comment further.
best.
muso.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/29/20 11:06 AM

No problem. I agree. I've also received some PM's that think I was a bit harsh on you. Not my intention at all and if I've given you that impression, I apologize.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 12/29/20 04:16 PM

Thanks for that Charlie.
wishing you always the best, and a very happy new year.
muso.
Posted by: BryMusic

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/01/21 09:42 AM

UPDATE: greatly changed this post, to be more to the point


The only problem with what Charlie is saying is that, yes, BIAB may have a bunch of features to help arrange songs, etc, but the devil is in the details. I have found so far in my few weeks of using BIAB is that it has a quirky, ad-hoc, error-prone interface. It can be a very frustrating experience getting around all of its quirks and inconsistencies. Hours can be wasted, needlessly. This is true even at the heart of BIAB, the chord view. A wonderful invention, if sadly flawed.

That being said, BIAB is still a great product from the standpoint of what a person can accomplish with it, but if the developers started over and created a well-designed GUI using standard GUI conventions (please?) it would be so much better and would become a truly outstanding product. It would not befuddle beginners so much and cause them to waste so much time, for no good reason other than bad design and apparent lack of caring about the GUI.

All this being said, I'm having at lot of fun with Band in a Box! It let's me do things I've always wanted to do, like test out a melody or chord changes with a full band behind me that never tires and never criticizes. (Oops! I'm a hypocrite on the latter!)

Happy New Year to everyone! And we can all truly say: "Hindsight is now 2020".

Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/01/21 06:21 PM

Hi Verne, thanks for adding your thoughts and welcome to the forum. You make valid points that are applicable not only to beginners such as yourself but for seasoned users too.

I believe what may be causing your confusion has more to do with terminology and settings rather poor coding. Coding issues are more likely to either cause unexpected results or system crashes rather than operational confusion.

The Part Markers and Medley Maker I demonstrated perform tasks that some did not know exists in BIAB although they've been prominent features in the program for many years. They are rock solid, straight forward performers.

What you and others may find unconventional with my example of the two tools are the settings I used with the Medley Maker. The conventional use is to create a playlist of various BIAB song SGU files and create 2-16 bar transitions between the songs creating a long playing Medley up to the 255 BIAB bar limit.

Notice in my example that rather than use 6 individual SGU files that are different songs, I've used one song broken into 6 sections without any transitions between the sections. This is easily and quickly accomplished with changing settings. Also note these sections can be rearranged to any order desired with a click of the mouse.

When the programmed Medley is generated, the Medley Maker creates a new and temporary SGU file that plays the programmed Medley - so in my example, it plays the original SGU file but it's a simple edit to move sections about and create and experiment, add and delete the song arrangement. This has been possible I'm sure as far back as 2014. Your post is the first I can recall ever being made about the Medley Maker which indicates the design and coding have no issues.
Posted by: BryMusic

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/02/21 08:57 AM

Charlie,

Thanks for the tips. I'll check them out. I had yet to look at Medley Maker because it didn't seem what I was looking for at all. As you say, it's a lot in the naming of things that's the problem.
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/03/21 12:25 AM

This one you can set the sections to any color you like.
In playback it could show the first line of the next section as it gets to the last 4 bars of current section then just jump to the next tab.
Posted by: paulpaul

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/04/21 07:54 AM

pipeline.

is this possible changing colour of sections or is it a just a wish.

if its possible i would love to know how to do it.

thanks.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 04:24 AM

just to add in chord view.
1. biab (and RB) report sound card latency.
2. biab (and RB) issue a warning notice if getting overloaded.
eg an early warning system in case a user overloads
with cpu hungry plug ins/fx/vsti etc.
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 06:25 AM

For #2, yes, a CPU utilization meter.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 06:53 AM

RealBand already has item #2 (not a warning, but an indicator) on the utilities menu:
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 07:28 AM

Right. I think it is more important to have this in BIAB than RealBand. RealBand CPU usage is more predictable and cumulative based on the number of tracks. BIAB is one big spurt during regeneration of a song. If a computer is under-powered, I think that will show up more in BIAB than RealBand.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 08:13 AM

videotrack.
re rb. well yes, but for someone new its not very overt.
its hidden , depending how ones tool bars are set up.
ie utilities tool bar might be hidden.
also for someone like myself with vision problems. sigh.
i only noticed it because i do deep dives into the help etc
but, as you see at various times on these forums lots of users new to pg, dont necessarily want to spend the time diving into manuals.
they expect fast results without doing so.
maybe there should be a performance menu item , that gives the user performance metrics for each trak like reaper does.
this way in reaps i can see which trak might possibly overload. plus i get an overview.
in reaper i can see various metrics.

the other aspect is what in industry is called
"gracefull system degradation".
for example over the years in both rb and biab ive had the occasional freeze/crash.
then have to use task mgr to stop the task.
with gsd concept, together with an early warning system,
perhaps might help the user trying to cram too much into a system.

best.
muso
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: WISH #3. FOR BIAB 2022. PG PLEASE RETHINK BIAB CHORD VIEW. - 01/17/21 09:31 AM

Good point. And it's going to get worse when the Utility Tracks are opened up in BIAB and can each be regenerated. Even raising the minimum requirements for BIAB to run will not be sufficient if you can intentionally add so many RealTracks, especially soloist tracks, that they will overload it. I think your idea of a prominent meter would be very helpful.