Simple Songform Creator - a Dialog Window that would have helped me as a new user

Well, I don't have any personal stakes in this suggestion, it's just what I would have wished to find somewhere in the menues as a new user and what might help other new users (and even more: people who are quite new to making music in general) in the future: A Dialog Window for creating a Simple Songform in order to get started smoothly for the first weeks in BiaB - no Codas etc., no "Minus 1"-Count-Ins, and no weird Ending-Settings.

A short explanation of the picture below, although the most components should be quite self-explanatory:

The user begins with a start setup - e.g. BiaB offers 10 Start-Setups to choose from, like Intro-Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Ending, Intro-Verse-Chorus-Verse-Prechorus-Chorus-Ending, Intro-Verse-Verse-Chorus-Verse-Ending, etc.; from there the user can then customize to a certain degree in the bottom area of the window
The Minus-symbol deletes the according section
The Plus-Arrow-Up-Button adds a further section right above the according section
The Plus-Arrow-Down-Button adds a further section right below the according section
The Arrow-Up-Button moves the acccording section in front of the section that is currently right above
The Arrow-Down-Button moves the acccording section behind the section that is currently right underneath
The user can define the length of all sections
The Intro-Section and the Outro-Section can't be deleted or moved in the dialog-window, but they can be set to zero bars, so that they would then not appear in the resulting songform
The dialog-window also allows to go back a couple of steps, which might be helpful if the user deletes a section by accident or the like.
The dialog-window also allows to restore a couple of steps that the user had rewinded before
If the user wants more options like Codas and so on, he has to use the Regular Songform-Options.
The "Type-in-Custom-Name-for-this-Section"-fields could be completely left out of the dialogue-window, if the programmer's goal is to make the window as slim as possible at all
In regard to a strictly modular approach which could surround a Simple Songform Creator as suggested here, you might also like to check out this thread: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=676320

Attached picture Simple Songform Creator.PNG

I haven't studied this enough but at first look it looks like this can be made by script and included in the Script menu.
It is just a thought as things can take years to be implemented if at all, this is the very reason I have been using AHK scripts, it's different in Reaper you have all the api access.
I made the Chord Picker Tool below with AHK scripting.

Hey Pipeline,

I can't build a clear opinion on things like that, since I only have trivial knowledge at software scripting. But I would think that especially for a Songform Tool, the work of an externally created script wouldn't pay out: Although beginners have to fight through some unconventional songform creation aspects in BiaB, they'll find their way to a process which they can live with at least quicker than they would get aware of a user-generated solution. So if this is not built into BiaB by PG, it would probably "come too late" for BiaB-Newbies.

I'll check out your Chord Picker Tool!

Is this what you are trying to do ?

there are sections
|a)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|
|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|
|b)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|

that could be created as txt with the drop downs you have then inserted as below:
Full Screen

Attached File

BB21-AHK-Song-Forms.gif (139 downloads)

Hey Pipeline,

Uuuh, maybe I haven't used the right musical terms in English;

1 Bar = 4 Beats (=> "12-Bar-Blues"), right?
A section is a complete verse or a complete bridge or a complete Chorus (and the like), no matter out of how many bars it consists. Isn't it?

I hope that I haven't caused the misunderstanding by using some wrong vocabulary.

From that apart, the general function is what I mean, yes.

The point that I'm trying to convey is: is this what you would like to do, insert song parts ? just look at what the script is doing and think can this be modified and used just how you want ?

Yep, I think it can be modified to function as suggested.

But we should be clear about the terminology, just in order to avoid misunderstandings. I'm quite sure that I used "Bar" in the right way, but maybe I used "section" wrong.

If I should go on using both as I've defined them in my last posting (otherwise let me know), I'd suggest the following modifications at first:

Renaming your "Insert Chord"-Button to "Insert Basic Songform"
Renaming your "Insert Bar"-Button to "Insert Verse" and letting it insert an 8-bar-A-Section.
Adding an "Insert Chorus"-Button and letting it insert an 8-bar-B-Section.
Renaming your "Delete Bar"-Button to "Delete Section" and letting it delete the whole section (= the complete A-Part resp. the complete B-Part) that contains the currently marked bar.

Afterwards, there would be also needed a user-friendly way to toggle Count-In, Intro and Ending, as well as to shift a specific section to another place.

Don't worry about the look of the GUI I'm using, that is just the Chord Progression Library script that I was using for a demonstration.
The proper script will look just like your GUI pic.

I see

Here's a basic script you can try.
Download https://www.autohotkey.com/
If you have Biab running As Administrator go to the install folder
C:\Program Files\AutoHotkey and set AutoHotkey.exe to Run As Administrator.
Run my script.ahk

You can put any name on the end of the button code
Gui, Add, Button, x430 y80 h38 w130 gAction08, Action?

and it will run the Action08: function below in the code.

You can style it with some colored buttons.

Copy the text into notepad and save as my script.ahk

Code:

#NoEnv
#SingleInstance Force


TransColor = D4D1C8
Gui, Color, %transColor%


Gui, Font, S10 CBlack Bold, Arial
Gui, Font, 03b1fc


Gui, Add, Button, x10 y10 h38 w130 gAction01, Insert 4 A bars
Gui, Add, Button, x150 y10 h38 w130 gAction02, Insert 4 B bars
Gui, Add, Button, x290 y10 h38 w130 gAction03, Set A
Gui, Add, Button, x430 y10 h38 w130 gAction04, Set B

Gui, Add, Button, x10 y80 h38 w130 gAction05, Insert 4 bars
Gui, Add, Button, x150 y80 h38 w130 gAction06, Delete 4 bars
Gui, Add, Button, x290 y80 h38 w130 gAction07, Action?
Gui, Add, Button, x430 y80 h38 w130 gAction08, Action?

Gui, Font, S20 CBlack Bold, Arial

Gui, Add, Button, x100 y150 h30 w30 gAction09, ^
Gui, Add, Button, x100 y200 h30 w30 gAction10, V
Gui, Add, Button, x75 y175 h30 w30 gAction11, <
Gui, Add, Button, x125 y175 h30 w30 gAction12, >

Gui, Font, S20 cBlue Bold, Arial
Gui, Add, Text, x100 y300, Some Text

;GUI, Color, 333333
Gui, +AlwaysOnTop
Gui, Show, x277 y206 h640 w600, Action Buttons, 

return



Action01:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {RIGHT} 
Send, {LEFT}

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...
Sleep, 200
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Sleep, 200

Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|a)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line


;winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
;Sleep, 100
Send, {ENTER}


Return

Action02:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {RIGHT} 
Send, {LEFT}
WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...
Sleep, 200
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Sleep, 200

Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|b)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line


;winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
;Sleep, 100
Send, {ENTER}
Return

Action03:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {RIGHT} 
Send, {LEFT}
Sleep, 200
Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|a)%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line



Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
Sleep, 100
Send, {ENTER}

Return

Action04:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {RIGHT} 
Send, {LEFT}
Sleep, 200
Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|b)%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line


Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
;Sleep, 200
Send, {ENTER}

Return


Action05:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {RIGHT} 
Send, {LEFT}

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...
Sleep, 200
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Return

Action06:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Delete Bar(s)...
Sleep, 200
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Return

Action07:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow

Return

Action08:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow

Return

Action09:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send  {UP}
Return

Action10:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send  {DOWN}
Return

Action11:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send  {LEFT}
Return

Action12:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send  {RIGHT}
Return




GuiClose:
GuiEscape:
ExitApp

Pipeline,

I've installed AutoHotkey now, and I've started both BiaB and AutoHotkey as Administrator.
I've stored the script as "my script.ahk" on the desktop, from where I open it by double-click on the icon.
I can see the Window with the buttons then - but if I click on a button, nothing happens in BiaB.

Maybe the script has to be in a specific folder?

If Biab was already set to run as administrator then you set Autohotkey.exe to run also so it should be the same as the pic below, you can remove run as admin on both and try:

Attached picture AHK-Admin.png

Ah, I had to set them permanently to Run as Administrator.

Well, now it does something - but no matter on which button I click, it just puts in an F-Chord.

What do you think about an area within the tool, where the user can first see/plan/construct his whole Song Form as kind of a compact sketch - and when he has done that, then he sends the complete desired Song Form to BiaB as a whole?
Since if he sends each "add section" and so on directly to BiaB, there is not much additional benefit in comparison to doing it just with a couple of more clicks via the regular BiaB-Right-Click-Menu.

I think this mode of thinking is in line with modern software.
However, if you adapt to the band in a box mode, it is actually very convenient.
According to the current situation, I suggest adapting myself to the method of band in a box.
As users, we must make a compromise in order to feel some functions of the software.
I believe band in a box also knows that it may need to be revised in some aspects. It is estimated that it will take some time.
Let's adapt to the current band in a box, and we can make our favorite music accompaniment
Especially BB VST, I think it's easy to use

I agree with swingbaby, in particular for this tool here. Since users that are new in BiaB will not come across this external tool anyway, as I've written above.

Yes it can do all what you are saying as I described earlier.
The thing is just to get the basic functions working.

If you replace this button & function:

Gui, Add, Button, x290 y80 h38 w130 gAction07, Play/Stop

Action07:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, {SPACE}
Return

it should Play/Stop when you hit button 7

Done - that works

So is it doing this:

Attached picture BB21-AHK-Song-Forms2.gif

The Arrow-Buttons work, but Button 1-6 all insert an F-Chord. Button 7 Start/Stop Play now, Button 8 nothing

Edit: 1-2 and 5-6 insert F-Chord, 3-4 work like an ArrowRight-Button

Try changing this then try button 1

Code:

Action01:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
;Send, {RIGHT} 
;Send, {LEFT}

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...
Sleep, 300
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Sleep, 300

Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|a)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line


;winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
Sleep, 300
Send, {ENTER}


Return

I also just used band in a box
My experience is very interesting. I actually used band in a box on my friend's computer ten years ago, but my final decision was not to use it.
However, now I see the progress of band in a box, and I choose to use it.
At the initial stage of use, it was also difficult for me to adapt. Asked a lot of questions. Everyone has been helping me in the forum.
Now I have basically found my own operation method. I think it's very easy to use.

I mainly use BB VST + STUDIO ONE Daw now

Pipeline, button 1 still inserts an F-Chord (and then highlights the next bar).

swingbaby,

it just depends on what you want to do with BiaB.

For one of my purposes, one method works quite good already. But for some other purposes, BiaB is just close to work well, but it's not yet above the degree where I can use it efficiently enough - and therefore I don't use it for those other purposes, which is a pity.

Look at what Action01: is doing,
to do it line by line you can add a line

MsgBox, Paused

or comment out (disable) the other lines with ;

this way you can get one step at a time working.
So below it should pause after opening insert bars dialog.

Action01:
winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
;Send, {RIGHT}
;Send, {LEFT}

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...

MsgBox, Paused

Sleep, 300
Send, 4
Send, {ENTER}
Sleep, 300

Clipboard := "[Chords]`n|a)%|%|%|%|%|%|%|%|`n[ChordsEnd]" ; "`n" = new line

;winactivate,ahk_class TBandWindow
Send, ^+v ;send ctrl+shift+v to Biab (paste chords from clipboard)
Sleep, 300
Send, {ENTER}

Return

Pipeline,

Button 1 now produces a "Paused"-Window with an OK-Button.

You must have a German language menu for Edit > Insert Bars ?

WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...

Attached picture BB21-AHK-Edit-Insert_bars.gif

Attached picture BB21-AHK-Edit-Insert_bars.gif

https://www.autohotkey.com/docs/commands/WinMenuSelectItem.htm

https://ahkde.github.io/docs/commands/WinMenuSelectItem.htm

I don't think that the software uses different languages for the functions, it will only display them in different languages toward the users.
However, this really gets too complicated, in relation to the low factual benefit as an external tool. As swingbaby said: Let's hope that PG will integrate something like this for BiaB-newbies into the regular UI.

It is YOUR menu in Biab it has to be in English to work as the AutoHotkey is reading the menu names.

Yes PG implement things usually right away they are really good like that.

Ah AutoHotkey executes the click on the button with that name, instead of sending specific commands to BiaB?

I know it can take quite some time for PG, I totally agree on that. But an external tool only makes sense when its benefit is bigger than the input for creating and using it. Since this is only helpful for new users and since new users will not know about such a tool, and then installation process is more complicated than getting used to the unconventional current BiaB method, plus now it even would work only if the user translates parts of the script into his language (or the scripter makes the tool in 200 languages), plus the user always needs to have extra stuff opened in the background ... really, an external tool just doesn't make sense here.

PG has made Biab for beginners since 1990. If you are a beginner learning you have to put effort in.
Yes I see the 200 languages for Win & Mac:

Attached picture PG-200-Languages.png

Ah, yes you're right, BiaB doesn't exist in all languages, for sure.
But Button Names might be renamed by PG, or replaced and so on. Then they'd all have to be updated in such a script. However, this is just one aspect - I listed many other aspects in my last posting, and the list as a whole clearly shows that we would really waste our time here.

You are in the English forum, there is a German forum that uses German language, you can post your script there.
As I said if you want to learn you need to put effort in but if you want to make it sound like a really difficult thing and give up I can't help you. Hopefully PG will have it implemented and released for you next month.

Pipeline, there is no reason to be ironic. I have put a lot of time in writing down what in my opinion is helpful for new BiaB users. But I can't put in even more time in learning how to script software.

MoveToGroove:
<< I have put a lot of time in writing down what in my opinion is helpful for new BiaB users. >>

swingbabymix:
01A << I think this mode of thinking is in line with modern software.
However, if you adapt to the band in a box mode, it is actually very convenient. >>

MoveToGroove:
01B << I agree with swingbaby, in particular for this tool here. >>

MoveToGroove:
02A << it just depends on what you want to do with BiaB. For one of my purposes, one method works quite good already. But for some other purposes, BiaB is just close to work well, but it's not yet above the degree where I can use it efficiently enough - and therefore I don't use it for those other purposes, which is a pity. >>

swingbabymix:
02B << Now I have basically found my own operation method. I think it's very easy to use. >>

________________________

No. You've spent a considerable time writing but not about how "Simple Songform Creator - a dialog window" is helpful for new BiaB users. Most of this discussion has been about scripting this specific feature.

Unless I totally misunderstand the above conversation, you don't agree with swingbabymix. You're proposing a new dialog tool to help you do song forms in BIAB. Swingbabymix clearly states he's found his way with the program as it currently exists and that for him, it's easy to use.

Interestingly, you both registered as new users the same day.

No one has discussed any deficiency of the suite of SongForm Tools that already exist and reside beneath the SongForm Icon posted on the Main Page Tool Bars Menu.

We here on the forum can't know new users musical theory background and I personally find it unclear if in less than a month, a new user will know enough about the BIAB program to effectively suggest new options when they don't mention or discuss existing tools that accomplish the task.

I don't think any person that understands the song form concept should have any difficulty with BIAB's Songform option and this discussion hasn't even acknowledged a suite of tools for creating song forms in BIAB. It leaves me in a position that I'm unable to form an opinion of any validity to the Wish List request.

The better option to me is if one does find a tool too complex or too difficult to manipulate, then the discussion should start with questions, concerns and recommendations to improve any existing tools rather than ignore such existing tools and request a 'new' tool as if it doesn't already exist.

Charlie,

I started this thread with the follwing explanation (you can look it up):

"Well, I don't have any personal stakes in this suggestion, it's just what I would have wished to find somewhere in the menues as a new user and what might help other new users (and even more: people who are quite new to making music in general) in the future: A Dialog Window for creating a Simple Songform in order to get started smoothly for the first weeks in BiaB - no Codas etc., no "Minus 1"-Count-Ins, and no weird Ending-Settings."

This contains a clear statement that I don't suggest this for myself (I have already found out a way how I can handle the songform), but just for other new users. Also the past form in which the topic is written clearly points to that. And the quoted part of my initial posting also contains examples about what's difficult for new users.

However, I admit that I might assume a bit too much empathy for how a new user probably thinks, but I really just found it quite self-explanatory that this - see pictures below - is totally weird for a new user (and that's why I didn't start my explanations with Adam and Eve - anyway, its always good to ask friendly questions):

Attached picture Songform 1.PNG

I agree for a new user that all those menu screens may confuse someone not familiar with song construction but here's the menu I was referencing. I overlooked adding a screen shot.

Description: Song Form Maker

Hey Charlie,

I haven't recognized that window, so far. Maybe it's new for BiaB 2021? Haven't seen that in the two New-features-in-2021-videos either.

I go to the trouble to make up the script for you and all you need to do is change the name to the German name
WinMenuSelectItem, ahk_class TBandWindow, , Edit, Insert Bar(s)...

It's a normal thing over at Reaper, that's why it's way more popular, maybe that's why Biab was stuck in the past for so long, ask yourself.

Attached picture BB21-Language-Edit-Menu.png

Pipeline,

this tool is not meant for ME, as I've said repeatedly - I've requested it for other users. Also, I've written 3 times, that it doesn't make sense to make an exernal script for this tool - you've ignored it all three times. I didn't want to say "no" when you asked me several times to test something, because I found it very kind of you, that you want to help those new users. So I did the testing - but it became more and more time consuming and even more and more unreasonable to go on with this external approach.

Other users are here so if they want to read the info they can.
This in the English menu, remove the .mp4:

Attached File

BB21-Menu-Clone-ENG.ahk.mp4 (13 downloads)

Originally Posted By: MoveToGroove

Hey Charlie,

I haven't recognized that window, so far. Maybe it's new for BiaB 2021? Haven't seen that in the two New-features-in-2021-videos either.

Check out pages 135 & 136 of the Band-in-a-Box user manual.

Quote:

Song Form Maker
The Song Form Maker allows you to define sections of a song (A, B, C etc.), and then rearrange the song by simply typing the form you want (e.g., AABABAACA). You can revisit the dialog to change the form at any time.
Press the [Song Form] button and select Song Form Dialog from the menu. You will then see the Song Form Maker dialog. Then define your sections (e.g., A = bars 1 for 8 bars, B=start at bar 17, for 8 bars C=start at bar 25, for 4 bars). Then type the form that you want (AABACABA).
Select [OK-Generate Form] then exit the dialog. The form string and sections are saved with the song.
You can revisit this dialog to re-order the sections. Or change a chord in the “A” section of the Chord Sheet, and then use the Song Form Maker to propagate the changes through all of the “A” sections. Use the [Undo] button to reverse your changes.
Uses for the Song Form Maker
- Enter a song by simply entering each section once, and then visit the Song Form Maker, typing the form that you want and generating it. Change the form without having to type in new chords, just redo the Form String (“AABACABA etc.)
- Change chords in each section by simply changing the chord in the main section, and then regenerate the form.
- Enter a melody once and copy it throughout the form by regenerating the form.

Description: Song Form Icon

Description: Song Form Dialog Window

Attached picture Clipboard43 Song Form Dialog Window.jpg

I was away for a bit but Jim covered it. It's included in your 2020 version and been part of BIAB for years. The icon is located in the Tools menu in the Classic View.

Description: 2020 Tool Bar Menu in Classic View

I reported that ages ago it had to be in the Song Form menu.
There are so may like this that users like visually impaired can't use via the menus.

Thanks, Charlie & Jim, I've found it. Didn't know that this exists, it's only called "Form" in my version. Well, that's going in the right direction, if people find it.