WISH//IDEA…. IMPLEMENTATION OF FLAC IN PG PRODUCTS
(biab and realband rb and powertracks)

i feel the following ideas would help people particularly with lower specced pc's and slower storage tech.
maybe even operate off of slower usb pen drives.
please keep an open mind and hear what i have to say before slamming me with 'flac 'sounds worse than' wav ' etc etc and other arguments.

1.. BACKGROUND.
ive recorded (useing reaps ) a massive number of traks using flac.
and you can say 'your stoopid' , but i truly believe you can do a good song using the flac scheme.
I mean track after track and not one person has said to me YET..
ooh i like that song BUT YOU USED FLAC RIGHT …lol.

In summary, count me a flac fan. I feel it would be a great addition to pg products.
and further make them unique products with no competition.

If you doubt me, throw up a challenge on these pg forums with tracks recorded in both flac and wav and see how many people can tell the difference…even pro audio engineers..i.e. raw tracks prior to post recording 'conditioning'.


2..IMPLEMENTATION OF FLAC. (APPLIES TO BIAB AND RB AND POWERTRACKS)

1..allow recording of audio tracks in FLAC.
(no conversion to wav…tracks stored as flac less storage. )
2..allow playback of flac tracks individually OR multitrack creating stereo playback.
3..allow export of tracks and stereo mixes in flac. instead of wav.
4..of course 'generated tracks' generated to flac. eg rt's//rd's etc etc..
5..also option to ship various pg 'paks' ie rt's//rd's etc as flac not wav.

IE AN ALL FLAC STUDIO. no wav anywhere. no wav storage etc etc. tracks stored as flac etc etc.
i KNOW i will get detractors to the above, BUT i figure if reaps can do it why not ??

i'm NOT saying get rid of wav, just suggesting an all flac studio as an OPTION for any user.
all the current features will stay.

just think of the fact that much less audio data is being read/written from/to a storage device. and so possibly a user with an old low spec pc would still be able to do a song.


I await the detractors…lol.

happiness to all.

om

+1

FLAC is lossless. If you encode a .wav to .flac then decode the .flac back to wav and do a full binary compare between the original and the wav-flac-wav copy, the files are identical. If someone thinks they sound different, then either they're imagining it or the FLAC decoder/player is broken or there are malign spirits in the system.

I think supporting FLAC would be an excellent change.

Doing so would also allow the audiophile library to be around half or a third of its present size.

+1 to PG Music products having the capability to import, export, record and playback FLAC audio files.

I'm not a fan of the idea of FLAC becoming PG Music's default audio file format at this time. While the FLAC audio file format has some advantages over the WAV audio file format the WAV audio file format remains the standard.

If PG Music adds FLAC capability to their products then the products will be ready if and when the FLAC file format becomes the audio standard.

This might be an alternative for those who want to download the audiophile version, in particular those who are charged the VAT tax on a hard drive.

+1 to a downloadable Audiophile version.

All of the major vendors of larger virtual instrument libraries now offer downloads that can exceed several gigabytes. Importing a physical hard disk to the UK adds several hundred dollars to the cost plus the hassle of shipping.

It's a reasonable suggestion, especially if it might change download vs. shipping requirements in some way.

+1

ALL.

thanks to those users so far for supporting this wish.

as i've worked in the past in a previous life in software development supporting a large user base , i would respectfully ask for users to continue to post their support for this wish in this thread…..
cos typically software development teams will often implement new features that are constantly requested/supported by lots of users.

please let me say my motivation is not ego (if someone might be thinking same..)..but a sincere reason…

particularly one major reason being that i suspect , over time, PG products will evolve to include more and more instruments//RTs//RDs//Perc etc etc ie a full blown set of orchestral instruments and instruments in many different music genres.
thus there are obvious technical ramifications as the instrument library grows over time.

for those 'techs' amongst us heres the specs for programming in flac….
(ymmv i hope i have referenced the correct specs as ive never programmed for FLAC.)

https://xiph.org/flac/format.html

i was pondering also, and only a pg tech can answer this next point….viz
is it easier for a programmer to implement FLAC support rather than code for WAV ?
cos i just dont know.

TO PG.. I DO REALISE from my tech background its a tough 'ask'...particularly as you issue your products in many different languages. ..and also cover 2 major platforms.
let me add my only motivation is to see pg prosper and continue to offer these unique products to help us musos create songs.

once again thanks to all that have supported this thread so far, and if you agree with me that this is an important topic/wish please continue to post your support in this thread.

happiness to all and happy song creation.

om

+1 on Jim's thoughts.

I would gladly accept 24bit Audiophile as an option. I believe it is 16bit now...
And as I understood from previous discussions, PGmusic has 24bit files... Sure, that might double the size of the HD needed, but if buyer pays, why not?

Downloadable Audiophile was discussed at least a half a dozen times (in great detail) in the short while I joined, and I am sure it was discussed in prior years. +1

--
My suggestion is to make incremental Audiophile version downloads available. Only new material for specific years. So lets say you bought Audiophile in 2020 and got a HD that year, you will have a choice to just download 2021 and 2022 newly recorded material, without downloading 1+ TB of base files that you already have. In my view, this should be popular with existing users.

Correct, all this has been discussed. And correct, it's not ego that drives this (or I would have kept a list of all the requests I've had implemented); it's a matter of making the software work better for all of us.

The one thing I would add historically is that a tremendous amount of repetition, +1s, reinforcement of a request etc. makes us feel good and may indeed be somewhat helpful, but I've seen features added after only one suggestion, and added quickly. You can be assured the developers do read these requests. I don't think it's terribly useful for us to 'game the system' like I've seen with campaigns on other software sites: a user forum runs up the +1s and thinks the developer will only do the 'winners'.

My opinion is that PG Music knows what we want. And they know what they want. And they have a plan. It's their decision what can be implemented with the given resources, and what makes the right marketing decision. I base that statement on direct conversations with the developers over the decades.

This will not affect me however I can see a huge advantage for many so

+1

One of the file type options in the Biab injector is to use flac, Reaper will batch convert all the RT/RD wma or wav source files to flac and inject them directly.
There is also a wavpack .wv option that you can encode the BB multitrack drum stems in Reaper to a single multichannel file that it will inject into one track. I think the flac only supports 8ch whereas wav or wavpack will support many more.
You could also have multichannel ogg

musocity

HI.

yep i'm aware of trak injector,..i'm just busy on new songs .

frankly i have no bias on any compression scheme.. flac or ogg or whatever.
as long as the audio is up to par with flac.
ive had loads of flac traks in reaps and nary a hiccup.

i would love to have such a compression feature in realband and biab.

best

om

I don't think the internal workings have changed too much since it was adapted from the very old powertracks way back in 2000's. There would be so many different functions in it that work on uncompressed wav files as it uses destructive editing on the wav files, and not to mention all the audio FX functions that use destructive editing. If they get the BiabVST working like the Biab injector then you could do all the same things and more than realband can do in your favorite DAW. Non destructive volume automation was added to realband some time back after a user request and now recently added to Biab but other than that all else is converting to an uncompressed wav file then destructive editing it, so again it too would need all the wav editing/FX functions changed to work with other formats
The idea of realband was great but it works in a slow way using a Biab application in the background like how the current BiabVST works, users stuck with Biab because of the speed but using the Biab injector method would be a lot quicker than Biab it's self not to mention being able to have a live arranger Biab also. I think most of the development energy goes into the Biab application other than a few tweaks now and then to realband. If realband worked like reaper it would be a way different story but that would be a massive undertaking, the horse has bolted realband was made after reaper was released that used non destructive editing.

MCity.

yep i get what your saying.

i guess for me over the years i developed various song development methods in firstly powertraks then realband later on.

every daw has its plusses and minuses of course.

for example in rb, i really like many of the generation features that arent in regular daws as well as all the neat midi features. i dont use midi as much as the old powertraks days cos of rt's. but i find rb can be very useful also for generating midi stuff i want as well as the bars window. the bars window in rb i really love.

flac or ogg instead of wav would be the 'bees knees' for me.
i think rb has lots to offer , and i'm hoping will develop further.
rb may not be 'pretty' like some daws, but for people who dont mind getting deep into rb imho it still has lots to offer in comparison to some big name expensive daws ive used in the past.

in conclusion , for me, its about using the strengths of various music production software. thats why my primo combo for doing songs is biab/rb and reaps.
i might start and finalise a rough arrange in biab, and then off to rb i go for further work (for me the bars window which biab doesnt have is very useful in trying various arrange ideas out includeing the 48 trak flexibility). then i might mix in reaps and do subtle tweaks/edits in reaps etc etc .

the way i work using the above combo is i guess similar to how i used to work in commercial studios. one might do bed //guide traks in one studio then use a second studio for overdubs n' final traks.

thus i think of biab/rb as my arrange and bed trak generators and reaps as my second studio for overdubs//final traks eg voc comping etc etc.
its just how my mind thinks ..lol.

happiness

om

"i might start and finalise a rough arrange in biab, and then off to rb i go for further work"
Yeah that's the current way most users have been forced to go because of the generate to ram quickness in Biab yet not much in the way of editing like a DAW has, and the slowness of generation in realband.
It could be all solved with the BiabVST/standalone with ultra fast gen/play.
You could used that direct in realband or better still reaper it would cut out the middle men and give flac ogg... Not to mention be able to have real time signatures to align and follow the DAW time signature and tempo map.
Programming the VST would be easier way to go than rehashing all the old programming in realband. The development of the BiabVST (front end anyway) has changed more in a short time than Biab, it's way ahead in professionalism than when it was first released and in many ways has a better interface than Biab, more aligned with other modern plugins.
I think you will have more success asking for the bars view in the BiabVST as a tab

MCITY.

well theres a way i often work in realband if i dont want to wait for wav trak generation.
its sorta a trick i found works v fast particularly as rb is sooo good at midi. n' saves lotsa time.

when ive used midi in other daws , even big name pricey ones, ive found i get frustrated cos i lose the trak genning features of rb.

i use this idea in the early stages of song idea development.

what i do is work in all midi in rb testing out song arrangements and concepts and
running tests. like scratch traks…which helps me in lyric development and vocal strategies.

'then' once i am comfortable ive finalised the song arrange etc etc per above…

only then , do i get into wav's etc. for me i just like rb cos i have the flexibility of 48 traks.

i like to work v fast , no waiting, when i'm developing song ideas.
by doing above i save time. and even sometimes , i have found happy little sound accidents occur useing plug ins on midi traks.

happiness

om

This again?

Lost no, it's deleted because posts were deleted telling the truth. Everything I post I post to help and tell the truth not to con people or rip them off, I'm not selling anything I don't make any money out of anything I go out of my way to help anyone out.
Then I see other companies implementing yet another idea I posted for PG free of charge putting so much time and effort into working out way better ways to do things. Then I see posts praising PG for something implemented that they thought couldn't be done, BUT I posted how to do it years n years n years ago.
I think it goes over the top of heads, like "This again?, he's crazy what's he talkin' about ?" but then when PG implements it years n years n years later it's like WOW that's awesome PG we didn't think that was doable.

I think it can be likened to the politics in the US where someone that did so much good but was too "brash" in some peoples minds was got rid of by dubious means and replaced by a bumbling WEF slave puppet with a teleprompter and an ex president in his ear. Now that the elites got rid of him the US and the whole world is going down the drain and on the brink of WWIII, woo hoo let's poke the bear and start WWIII regime change and believe with our heart and soul what MSM tells us, bet our lives on MSM news to the point of nuclear destruction So you can see how people who tell the truth are got rid of and demonized. But the good thing is ALL the truth is coming out now about everything, a giant wake up call Near Death Experience and enlightenment for all.

I didn't need no wake up call to see what was going on as I had my Near Death Experience 32 years ago (maybe I should of got onto PG then and nip the things that would cause the future problems in the bud )
I did not get here until 2009 but I see other user joined long before then so why didn't they get more into studying the workings and get it to a better place, reaper was released in 2006 then realband years after that, why on earth was realband not made to work like reaper and other DAW's ? did anyone look outside the box or were they living in the 90's still ??

Blessed is he who has ears to hear, now back to implementing ideas to make things better maybe that is why I was sent here, who knows ? though I just given up so many times and left here thinking why bother it falls on deaf ears !

As a fellow user, I have never knowingly criticized your right to make suggestions. And I am happy to acknowledge some posts go over my head. I was merely alluding to the possibility that you may be the same person who has appeared in the past under two other user names.

We are only users and have no control over what PGM implements in BiaB and RB. I have posted in the wishlist forum many times. Most of my suggestions did not get implemented but a couple did.



Don't give up. Wanting improvements in BiaB and RB and not seeing them can be depressing. But again as users all we can do is to keep pushing for a better BiaB/RB.

Here's a video using Flac directly from frozen SGU without decompressing wma to wav then writing to RAM then rendering down to wav, it's just written directly into Reaper's track as Flac.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/moobjjwo1x29lt9/BB-Injector-Flac-Files.mp4?dl=0

There is a pic show files sizes of Flac Wav and Wavepack, wavepack will encode to more than 10 channels ideal for drums. Compressed format ogg will encode to more than 10 channel also.
So Biab could generate, import or render all it's tracks to/from a multichannel format.

I took the 10 16bit 44.1khz wav files in the Realdrums folder and encoded them to 24bit 48khz multichannel wavepack file that injects directly into Reaper.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt2bg5l614g8nx7/BB-Wavepack-Multichannel-Drums.mp4?dl=0

See in pic below file size of the 10 16/44.1 drum stems and the file size of the single 10ch 24/48 wavepack file that's 100meg smaller.

MCity.

(note i'm vision impaired re your posted pics so need some clarification.)

ok , assume i'm a noncompoop…lol…

is there a piece of flac or ogg or whatever conversion software i can use that will do the following after exporting from realband or biab the rt etc wav's ..

ie convert them to flac or ogg or whatever so i can import to reaps as flac or ogg…??
cos i'm confused…cos currently anything i drop into reaps via drag drop or export wavmeans i'm stil in the wav domain.
(if there is ! please text back the precise steps please. cos recording in reaps is no probs..i can record in flac etc. )

note…before i create a new song ..i create a new folder in win ,,,and the folder is used to store everything to do with the song whether reaps or bb or rb.

now heres the rub…obviously the folder can get very big for a complex song (cos rt wav's from bb and rb). the result being back ups take longer. which , with all flac or all ogg or whatever i would save save times. see what i mean ?

i DID have an idea how to lessen the impact on the current pg code base of rb and bb.
maybe allow ,... using a public domain flac or ogg convertor ?…a convertor option to flac or ogg on export or drag/drop from rb or biab…make sense ?

i mean ideally i would love to work in biab and rb to work all the time in the flac or ogg domain , but i'm sure this would be lots of recoding work for pg.
maybe only on export ?? , this would save pg lots of work.
ideally i would like to drag traks from rb or biab into reaps as flac. rather than an added conversion to flac/ogg step.

hope i make sense ??

happiness.

om

Reaper menu File > Batch File/Item Converter

That's why I made the track injector because my hard drive filled up too many times because of all the wav files created by Biab, BiabVST and RealBand SEQ session files
I tried converting 12 wav files to a multichannel flac in Reaper but it didn't work but wv wavepack did it's the same Perfect(Lossless) quality.

06 Multichannel Stems.RPP
08 Multichannel Stems.RPP
10 Multichannel Stems.RPP
12 Multichannel Stems.RPP

Here's templates and render settings

To make a custom multichannel just add or remove tracks, set the number of tracks on the Multichannel track ROUTE and if you add a track create a Receive.
Select the Multichannel track to render along with time selection.

You can also convert any wav files in a Reaper project to FLAC OGG... in the Save dialog.

"(note i'm vision impaired re your posted pics so need some clarification.)"
If you right click on the pic "Open Image in New Tab" then use Ctrl+ mousewheel to zoom in/out and cursor keys to move.

MCity.

as always brilliant stuff mate.

ideally i would like a feature in rb/biab for flac export of course.
kudos.

happiness.

om

I think they said they can do that now as there is a library for Delphi ?
I would not stop with just flac, also have an option to save all tracks to a multichannel file.