Wow,

I never realized what superstars some of us on this forum are until now, but now I know. We are blessed!

Read some interesting stats on a songwriter’s blog today. Really makes you think.

48,000 songwriters in Nashville trying to make it

1,305 songs recorded a year on major labels

85% of songs going to insider writers (i.e producers)

75 songwriters getting 1 or more cuts per year

Less than 1% of all albums sell more than 1,000 copies/mechanical royalties = 9.10 cents per song

Average take home of the 75 successful “placed writers with cuts” = $91.00

People who don't get cuts that year after working on it all year = 47,925

Investment = 7 years of living in a storage unit, cleaning tables, and taking songwriting classes

Given that I made a lot more than that streaming songs on Spotify last year (and even some Complete Album sales, woo-hoo!) I can say:

I am among the HIGHEST PAID SONGWRITERS IN THE WORLD!!!!! ALL RIGHT!! Two pizzas tonight baby!!!

My investment: Band-in-a-Box and a free version of Cakewalk.

Thank you PG Music!!!

Who says home recording doesn’t bring home the bacon!!!!!!!!!

Interesting stats. Every recording made is someone's idea of a number one hit. Millions of records made each year, thousands played on the radio or streamed and hundreds make big bucks. Can anybody say poor marketing strategy?

Graham Cochran of The Recording Revolution and Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner both have expanded their tutorial channels to cover business techniques and offer paid courses. But the most interesting and useful one I've come across (and theoretically adopted if I ever record and release another song) was from a young, stay at home mother of 5 that her hobby is writing and recording music. Her free video details her realistic musical ideology.

she named it Micro Niche.

Here's how it works. She has been making music for years but life has tagged along and she realizes she will never be a one percenter Music superstar.

Her goal was to research musical genres and find a small niche (Micro Niche) of hard core and passionate fans. She researched and learned the details of a small genre of music and began to write and record songs in the style of that niche. Her goal was to reach one thousand people that will purchase her album of the Micro Niche genre along with some other accessory such as a T-Shirt or Coffee Cup. The Album and souvenir will sell for $25.

Her goal is to sell 1000 of these units over the next year. Through placing albums and souvenirs on consignment and the few that will go out to family and friends and acquaintances along with a Web Site open 24/7 365 days - That should not be a hard goal to reach. Especially marketing her merchandise specifically toward people passionate about their micro niche musical genre.

$1,000 X $25 = $25,000 yearly income.

You don't have to be famous to make a livable wage in music. My brother always encouraged me as a songwriter by saying I only had to ever get it right one time.

As an inventor, Edison made 1,000 unsuccessful attempts at inventing the light bulb.


When a reporter asked, "How did it feel to fail 1,000 times?" Edison replied, "I didn't fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps."

Charlie,

This is brilliant and actually what I am thinking about. I would love to see the video by that lady. Do you have the link?

My Mom several years ago asked me to make a Christmas album of "soothing classical guitar and strings" because she was tense.

So I did it in 2 days, right before Christmas. It BY FAR has gotten me the most streams of anything I have done.

So I see this. I am looking for that niche right now and trying to figure out what else to add to it. There are some new age marketing gurus and social media experts in the family.

This has me thinking. HARD.

Beat,

We are all on the same page. This is blowing my mind, really.

Think, think, think, New Age Healing Album + +, +, with built in marketing e-commerce company at $99 per x $5,000 =

It is in line with stats I read recently:

70 % of all published songs/albums sells 1 (hello mom) or none.
90 % sells less than 100
1 % sell enough for the artist to have a decent income from her/his music.

Of the 10% selling more than 100 albums: 8 out of 10 are backed by extensive marketing from a label.

There is however other ways to get income from your music. I have several friends who submit tracks that they don't want to publish in their own name to places like Pond5, etc. - and they actually get a decent return of money from those "abandoned" tracks.

Also... you will probably get some confidence by listening to new songs in your preferred genre... there are so many really bad written/produced songs that would NEVER have been published 10-20 years ago (before you could do everything yourself).

Will

Your right David. Makes you feel a little bit lucky reading those stats. I wanted to go to Nashville at one time but not anymore. I'm good where I'm at an making a decent living playing music and collecting my royalties.

<<< ... there are so many really bad written/produced songs that would NEVER have been published 10-20 years ago (before you could do everything yourself). >>>

Will, I was just thinking about this yesterday and have been giving it some thought and study for some time and I have to disagree. There have always been more poorly written, arranged and produced songs than good ones. Top artists release duds as well as hits and there is a wealth of songs that linger for years sometimes before someone comes along with a new arrangement of a song that turns a dud into a #1. That's the very premise of the Tom Hanks movie "That Thing You Do".

Looking back, you'll see that artists use to self-finance recording time, trade their talent as studio session players for personal studio time and there were many small recording studios spread across the country. Today, these independent unsigned artists finance and otherwise develop currency to buy semi-pro hardware and top grade DAW software and other gear. The path is the same. Just the location has changed from a studio to a bedroom and the artist now days owns the gear and location rather than rent commercial space, gear and technicians.

This is precisely the point I was thinking about for some time and the thought behind it is from the Website Trunkworthy. Trunkworthy has a short comparison between the 'In the Style of..' songs written for the movie "That Thing You Do" and the actual songs used for their inspiration. Listen to "That Thing You Do" and then its inspiration, "LIes (are breaking my heart) by the Knickerbockers; "Hold My Hand Hold My Heart" from the movie to "Then He Kissed Me" by The Crystals and so on.

Locally for me and available to you via streaming, is an obscure little FM radio station that is absolutely addictive for song analysis, obscurity and a library of songs inspired and written toward the 'In the Style of..' genre of music. In a span of 10 minutes you will hear three of the most obscure songs followed by one of your all time favorites. A lot of famous artists find their way to this station via side trails they took during their career steering away from the Pop genre where they are massive stars to Jazz, Blues and other genres that were major influences on them when they were young and just starting their career in music.

More interesting to me is that many of these songs played on this station were not made by artists under contract to major labels and fall into that category of independent artists believing in themselves, financing a song meticulously following a hit record ' in the style' template so all the elements of a "hit" song are there and many times, the artist is very talented. But the end result is a cliched, poorly written, average produced and predictable dud...... But there is a great mixture of masterpieces never released as singles, just album cuts, from major artists and you'll hear many, many of your Oldies favorites. A great blend of music.

There is a lot to learn from this music. Nearly all of it is comparable in quality to a BIAB generated soundtrack. Nearly all of it can be identically replicated from BIAB. Some can be improved using a BIAB soundtrack because the original backing track is 99% a keyboard workstation Style generated soundtrack. To me, it's a place to hear the opposite of Rick Beato's YouTube series - "What Makes This Song Great?" and becomes "Why Didn't This Song Make It?"

It's important to study the great songs but also important to study the duds because we learn from repetition and by studying duds, you'll definitely see patterns developing and hear songs with all the 'right' elements, a great singer but at the same time, an instantly recognizable DUD....

Thanks Charlie,

Hey, do you have that link to the stay at home Mom's business plan??

1. I will try to find it and forward it to you.

2. Something similar to your Mom's request happened to me and I'm hoping it will become my Micro Niche so I'll share a bit of the
story.

I have a friend that over the years has been a successful amateur Elvis impersonator. He has been a repeat winner of several Elvis contests. He's been the Grand Marshall in local parades. Did a lot of festivals, corporate events as far away as Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Wilmington and Atlanta. Years ago, he was a featured guest on a popular local radio program.

I have been his recording engineer/mixer for most of his Elvis covers he's made on Cassette and CD's. These have almost exclusively used Karaoke backing tracks. He has invested thousands of dollars in Karaoke tracks and has nearly every conceivable arrangement ever issued of Elvis's hits. Although he has supplied lead vocals for some of my originals in the past, he has always resisted using any backing other than Karaoke tracks.

Early last year, driving in his car, a bluegrass song titled "Erase The Miles" by III Tyme Out played on the radio. In his head, he instantly heard Elvis singing the song. Besides being bluegrass, there obviously was no Karaoke version of the song that exists. He approached me about the capability of BIAB to produce an 'in the style of...' version if Elvis had lived to record this song. After years of encouragement from me to step out of using Karaoke and create his own idea of covers, something had finally clicked.

He came by and we quickly downloaded the bluegrass version, ran it through the ACW and created a tempo map and chord sheet and located a Style he was comfortable with and did a single generation render, a little Bar Setting to bring instruments in and out and created a solo, he did a one take sing through vocal and I burned him an MP3. It was supposed to be a demo to archive the idea. At any rate, we never updated the recording and since then, he's used the MP3 backing track to perform to as well as put the recording on CD's. It has been far away, his best received and most requested song when he performs or someone gets a copy of it.

I explained the Micro Niche concept to him and his team and hoping that will evolve into me producing a BIAB soundtrack for an album.

Eureka !!!

I found it!

Three Steps to find your Micro Niche

Ms. Mchenry has found a niche, alright. And for only $997, she will teach you how to do it.



https://savvymusicianacademy.com/tribe/tom/



Regards,


Bob

Big Deal! I was paid $100 to stop playing one night so I made more not playing then they did!

Exactly! Her niche is conning gullible hopefuls out of their money. Classic shovel & treasure map sales.

Well John,

If you watch her Facebook free video, and digest her 3 simple (but good) points and if you have any social media marketing skills whatsoever, her points are kind of valuable and you can take it and run with it.

I don't think you need the $997 variety. She already gave us the main stuff for free. Most of the shovel sellers I see say the same thing over and over and over. They only have one point. At least she has three.

Maybe you could offer us all a BIAB forum special for a half hour to 45 minutes of social media coaching at $99.99 and tell us how to advertise ourselves better?

That would save us almost $900 dude!!!!



So, 30,000 x $99.99 is..........

Looking at one of her testimonial poster's, Taylor Mesple's older videos were getting 20-50 views and his newer ones have thousands. 50-60 thousand plus. Something must work - Could it be her collaboration with The Starmaker Machine?

Charlie,

As I stated above to J3 (who I think is a social media wizard, if memory serves correctly) her 3 main points are actually astute from a marketing perspective, and you could just take that and run with it.

The former head of marketing for Chase who was the dad of one of my best friends once told me:

"There is really only one marketing question. Why should the customer care?"

In her case, the answer she is putting out there is "My customers should care because they love Metal Orchestral Celtic and I am the best at it."

There are 25,000 girls in Nashville trying to sound just like Taylor Swift. Tell me why that will never work?



On the other hand, I like this micro niche idea. I am already researching. I think I got it. I don't think I need the $997 variety now. But I may hire J3 if I get into a bind with my limited intelligence, which does happen more often than I would like to admit.

Yep.... spot on. There's a few folks making the money but they aren't the musicians. For most artists, it's all about the merchandise sold from websites and concert tours.

The money is in the performance royalties. Not the mechanicals. Yeah, you might sell a couple thousand copies and make a few hundred, but let that song go to the top 3 and the writer and publisher are getting some serious money.

BUT..... there's a very small group of songs that ever get to that point in a year and the writer pool of those songs is a very small group as well.

I recall a band I was in back in the day. We didn't do any recording so we didn't have any music to sell. However, I did run a merchandise outlet at the gigs. It was pretty common for me to make more money from T-shirts and other things I was selling at the time than from the paycheck at the end of the night.

A smart musician who is gigging on a regular basis, and has some merchandise to sell, can really make a nice living from the music and merch.

"Looking at one of her testimonial poster's, Taylor Mesple's older videos were getting 20-50 views and his newer ones have thousands. 50-60 thousand plus. Something must work - Could it be her collaboration with The Starmaker Machine?"



Old Taylor Mesple is running his own racket.


https://taylormesple.bandcamp.com/backstage


"For $225/year, you get everything above, plus:

Each year you subscribe at this level, you will also receive a PERSONALIZED ONLINE HOUSE CONCERT where I perform for you online for 45+ minutes. It will be clear in both the things we say during the concert and the decorations around the musician(s) that this is YOUR concert in your honor and that we are performing for YOU. "Bob Fest" could be the title, just saying... This will be open to the public to watch online, but you will be the reason for the event and the title of the show will have your name in it. The online platform we use allows attendees to chat in real with one another and tip the musician(s) performing (I might have special guests!) We might even sing a song for you or to you, or take a special song request. Show will be at a mutually agreed upon day and time. You will get to chat with me privately after the show via Facetime for a short while. You can invite your friends over to your place to watch the concert and be a part of the Facetime call if you'd like."


As thrilling as that offer seems, I'll have to pass. I'm saving up for my annual NSAI dues.


Regards,


Bob

Bob,


Wow! I am signing up!!!!!

All your stuff is very funny, and I have to say I am bombarded every day by members of the Star Maker Machine, with every flavor known to man.

It is really overwhelming, and all of the You Tube experts--thousand and thousands--and the people who have been on "The Row" and write in all caps and say "I am the only one who knows what he is talking about because I was almost a star so let me tell you..." blah blah blah.

All for 75 jobs that pay $97 dollars a year.

And every day, another 250,000 you tubes drop, telling you exactly how to get in.

Dave, don't get me wrong...if these "artists" are able to convince starving musicians to pony up $997 for their "secrets" then they certainly have mad marketing skills! Of course this is nothing new! From the beginning of time humans have been trying to convince other humans to give them their money in exchange for the secret to success.

I recall a recent true story I read in Modern Archeology Quarterly...

Thag claimed he was an excellent woolly mammoth hunter. The best in the land! But rather than hunt woolly mammoths Thag decided he preferred to share his super secret woolly mammoth hunting techniques for the low, low price of 997 cowry shells (and stay safely inside his cave.) He told great stories of Scramp, a neighboring hunter (that no one had heard of) and how ol' Scramp was killing 326.7% more woolly mammoths since subscribing to Thag's course. And, a very small number of people, from the local seaside community of Gull Able, signed up for Thag's course. They did not ever report the kind of results Thag promised but Thag insisted they didn't follow his plan properly. When woolly mammoths started to become rare, legend says the locals boiled and ate Thag.

John,

I have been struggling for 3 months to come up with an idea for a novel that I can sell to Netflix that will produce a period piece that will run for Six Seasons.

I was at a loss.

No more.

Thag

Gotta run. Thanks. You are the Wizard man. Everything they say true.

Wait, Netflix is calling. Really gotta go now.

Just be sure to credit Gary Larson for the name. Oh and send me 997 cowry shells.

$225 is not even a fraction of prices some Dad's paid my Son in Law's DJ business for silly nonsense stuff at their daughter's wedding...... He received that much for a Gobo with a Calligraphy letter to shine on a wall... As a serious matter, I'm in David's camp on the legitimacy of this entrepreneur's free advice. First, It's all you need and the math works and second, it follows the advice my brother told me over and again for years. Third, I'm the one that introduced her to the forum.

If someone is marketing $25 worth of product and can't sell a thousand units in a year, ....... as MarioD famously states, YMMV. But if they can, that's $25,000 and is more than your friendly McDonald's server or part time Walmart greeter is pulling in all the while working far more hours.

Do what you're passionate about even if it's whittling wood and luck and fortune may one day come your way. Can anyone say Duck Dynasty?

Yes, Charlie... you are probably right... I was a bit quick with that statement. There were many "bad" records in the old days too, but there are many more songs published today than in the 70s/80s, which makes the amount of recently published "bad" songs quite overwhelming.




I would like to have a listen to the stream from that radio station... what's the name of it?

Also, I have never seen the movie you mentioned so I will check that out too.

Thanks,
Will

Will,

Do a web search on the movie and right after do a web search on the term "Dick Clark's Caravan of Stars". Between the two, you'll learn a lot about how the music business worked until the British Invasion came along.

Charlie,

Put up a link to the radio station stream please.

Hey David,

All kidding aside, I agree with you that this lady has some valuable info to share. Here is another person I follow who has been successful at this...Heather Dale. If you have 10 minutes or so check out her TED Talk "How to find a tribe that loves your art",

https://youtu.be/f7tO-8PIR9s

94.9 The Surf FM Radio

For those requesting the Radio Station Stream, here you go. Enjoy and find you some good BIAB songs to copy.

From the Home Screen , I had to click on the All Time Beach Music Top 40 Button and the Listen Live Button is on the upper left.

Will, I'm sure you will enjoy "That Thing You Do".

JohnJohnJohn,

I've had a good time 'meeting' Heather Dale. Thanks for posting the link. Her ideology closely mirrors Leah McHenry's and Heather gives more detail of her success using a system that is fun and lucrative without fame.

Here is another favorite Micro Niche artist that I've followed for years and unfortunately he passed a few years ago. His niche in songwriting is that he's a great storyteller and plays guitar in Open D tuning. He also developed a large following in teaching basic home recording using Presonus Studio One. His tutorials were the first I ever found on YouTube. He focused on beginners and intermediates and let the advanced "take care of themselves".

Here's my favorite song of his and I think is a good example of how he puts a story together. Simple and effectively I think.

"Melissa" by Guthrie Thomas

This is very cool John, thanks.

Ha, that wasn't what I was expecting to read.

I've read similar stats. It's the same in most aspects of the music industry and even in most professions; a small minority earn most of the money.

I guess that's why it really helps to love making music, if it was done purely for the money I'm sure there would be a lot fewer songwriters.

Congrats at being in the top 1% though David.

In 2017, around 1.51 million acoustic guitars were sold in the United States.

Taken together, 2.6 million acoustic and electric guitars were sold in the U.S. last year, up 300,000 from 2009, according to the National Association of Music Merchants.

A little under 40,000 pianos were sold last year.

All of this was in just one year. Assuming the same sales for the last ten years we have something like 26 million new guitars being put in the hands of a mix of want to be to really good guitar players.

How many of those wanted to write a original song to make money? Who knows. There is also the group who acquired an instrument before that ten year period.

So...take that out world wide and you have hundred of thousands or perhaps millions of people who are trying to write a song.

A few of those people are really good at it and have the right connections with the right stuff at the right time.

Is it possible to make money playing/selling music? Yes, thousands of us have done that. Could you send your kids to university on that money? Some but not many could.

Can anyone who is "unknown" write a hit song on demand to be played by someone who is "unknown". No, no one knows what will become a hit based solely on the music.

You do have a pretty good chance of writing a hit song if you have written some in the past and the artist is current and in his prime. Yes, Bernie Taupin comes to mind. What was that piano players name??...lol

On the other hand I remember this guy...

Lawrence Wayne "Wild Man" Fischer (November 6, 1944 – June 16, 2011) was an American street performer known for offering erratic, acapella performances of "new kinds of songs" for a nickel or a dime each on the Sunset Strip in West Hollywood.[1] Most of his life was spent homeless or institutionalized, and he later became regarded as "the godfather of outsider music"

Sorry, I lived in LA much too long...lol

Billy

I agree with Shaun in this whole discussion. If music making for money is like taking part in a lottery with a winningchance of 0,000001%, you better spend your money in a real lottery. BUT... if you like making music, concentrating on that will probably gives more satisfaction than 'winning' some bugs while doing a lot of concessions to your music.

Unless of course your name is David, the richest songwriter BiaB ever had. ;-)

If I want to become a successful songwriter in the Netherlands, I have to write lyrics in Dutch and make Hip Hop music. Both I realy don't want. Stupid? I hope one day my songs become that niche. If not... bad luck, but still happy (enough.

Thanks,
Hans Berkhout

Hans,

It's true man.

When I saw my streaming sales on Spotify last month, I bought a third home in your neighborhood.

Why don't you come over and we can all get rich.

Do you know Max Martin by any chance???

Did she have production costs, printing the CDs through a service or are they home computer burns? Are there CD sleeves with art work? How much does each mug and shirt cost to produce?

The first 2 questions are variables, but home burned CDs vs CDBaby burned with artwork sounds kind of cheesy to me. And those mugs and shorts aren't $0 to her unless she also does ceramics and screen printing.

Only point being that it isn't 1000 x $25. Reality is $25 less expenses. So it's likely more like 1000 X $13-$15.

Wish her well with her dream though.

Yes, she is talking about gross income and of course there are expenses. As you allude, expenses are malleable and somewhat controllable. Her point is exactly as stated; 1,000 units at $25 is a gross amount of $25,000. The $25 product can be a single item or consist of multiple items to generate the $25 sum. It's just an example but it's to show how uncomplicated it is to generate income from music without being a star. Even if she fails to reach her goal of 1,000 and only makes sales of just over half that amount, 636 units at $25, the $15,900 will match the gross income of a McDonalds Production Manager's gross national average salary of $15,896. The point is one can make an income off music the same as they can making hamburgers.

This is true in the same way saying any kid can grow up to be president is true. Granted, making 15k in music will be an easier accomplishment but it is still highly unlikely the vast majority can pull it off. And for sake of argument let's say you do manage to do it once, what about next year and the year after, etc.? Unfortunately there are far more people willing to pay for a Big Mac week after week, year after year than will ever buy your $25 music package even once. I admit it might be possible but it is more like lottery than working at MickeyD's! At least the clown pays regularly and on time and if you don't work out there is another one 10 feet down the road!

<<< This is true in the same way saying any kid can grow up to be president is true.>>> No, not the same at all. Since the creation of the US, there have been only 44 people achieve the status of President. (Grover Cleveland was President twice and Trump is number 45) In 2016 there were a total of 26 candidates on the ballot. 24 had no chance of winning. The opportunity to run for president only comes up every four years. The opportunity to run on any presidential election has limits and requirements that not every kid will grow up to the circumstance of meeting the presidential candidate requirements. The odds of a musician creating and releasing a record that becomes a hit song are astronomically better than any random child growing up to be president.


My late brother (a successful musician and producer) made his living his entire adult life in the music business. He made it clear to me that one only has to manage to have a huge hit once to ensure a lifetime income that the person can live off of. Plenty of people actually earn enough money in music to live comfortably but are unable to manage money in a way to keep it and spread it out over a lifetime.

<<< far more people willing to pay for a Big Mac week after week, year after year than will ever buy your $25 music package even once. >>> True. You also have to sell 6 big macs for every CD. It's impossible to find a 10 year old big mac for sale at any price. However, it's not unusual at all to find a 10 year old CD, Vinyl album, or even older still available to purchase today. The Beatles Sgt Peppers album released in 1967 is still widely available at all of the music media outlets. That's 52 consecutive years it has been available world wide to purchase if you wanted to. If you kept your CD current with whatever media format for audio is, your CD content could be available for purchase for 50 + years too. There are literally hundreds of thousands of recordings released over the last 50 years and more still available. Is it common? Not for the less commercially viable releases but not unheard of either.

I'm as ordinary person as exists here on the forum and I sold a song that had set dormant for 44 years to a record producer that's received two Grammy nominations since 2009. To be honest, the sell price was more than the entire album sales did back in the day. The bottom line is your CD has zero chance if you don't put it out there but it does have a greater chance of earning you substantial income than your child has of one day becoming president....

And neither is any more likely than winning the lottery!

Now J3, how quickly they forget.

Just go back a few years man.

Remember, remember...the poppies will put you to sleep, you will wake up, turn on the t.v., and...

BAM.

It could happen to you dude!!!!!

Hi David,

If that's the case i come over, although I heard from all sources it's better being in Haarlem. Houses are very expensive, so nice if you own one (and I do).
And thinking about your and my music we get superrich. Now we only have Hiphop/rap, but are in desperate need of something more intellectual.
And we all speak some sort of English if you want. But for you Dutch won't be any problem. We have a former soccerplayer with your name. We like that!

But if you hesitate leaving Virginia because of the weather, I can tell you within some time climatechange makes the Netherlands have the ideal subtropic climate, while you all have a problem...

Let's make music!
Hans

With a Tshirt, mug, and CD.... after costs to produce them.... you end up with a net profit. That is taxable income and is subject to the income tax laws of the state and the nation... so.... 8% or so to the state out of the net.... 15% to 30% to the feds depending on your income tax bracket, and SS/MC at 15.2% if you are self employed which a musician would be considered to be self employed.... leaves you with a few dollars at best per unit..... and don't forget the postage if it's mailed..... and state sales taxes.....

It's down right depressing.

I'm not sure if you understand business. You are talking as though this person is an employee and has no tax advantages associate with owning a business. There are tons of tax incentives associated with owning a business. If you were to pay the way you outlined; you should not be in business; should learn more about it or hire someone with that skill set.

"The reason more people don't swing for the fences is because they aren't on the field or even in the dugout. They are in the stands; or at home watching it on TV."

<<< musician would be considered to be self employed >>>

Not necessarily. This is where a good knowledge of business is beneficial. It's never how many dollars you make, it's how many dollars you keep. The tax system favors those who know the multitude of ways engineered for the knowledgeable to keep the most possible of the money they garner from all the available methods to bring in income. One can become a millionaire walking dogs if they understand business and work toward the goal of earning a million dollars. So can the average musician. The product is irrelevant if one can figure out how to sell it. It can be a product or service. The relevant point is to retain received income and to generate multiple streams of income.

We should band together and write a book,

"How To Make Big Money In Music"
by a bunch of guys in a forum who have never done it

I don't think $20k a year for salary/income is "big money." I also think it is extremely achievable.

Then again, you never see someone who says "it can't be done", do it.

HTL:

Man, on the 20K, I hear ya. By the way man, that 250K you let me borrow last week, can I pay you back in April? I just dropped 300K on my Amex black and that's due this week. Thanks man. Let's do that thing in Peru in May if you still can. Should be a nice weekend.

J3,

Man, brilliant as always. Only problem I see is there are 50 million people on You Tube already doing that. I get 100 emails a day.

Can we find a new angle, something fresh?

Hey, I have an idea. How to raise 6 billion in venture capital for a med tech company without actually having a product.*

Should be fun.

Just let me know man!!!

*Maybe say we are doing blood tests or something???

Well if the median household income is around $60k, I would say if you are at $20k isn't exactly being in the 1%. So, at 1/3, or even 2/3rds as a couple of median, I wouldn't exactly consider"big money."

I'm not saying it's nothing or being snobby. I don't see anything wrong with people earning whatever they want.



Peru? Drats! Lovey and I were jetting to the Poconos to purchase a village as a gift for an upcoming 1/2 year birthday party. Perhaps next year if I have a work day that year?

As for the money, I had already forgotten about the $250k. The next time you steal one of our "Benjamins" toilet paper rolls please have the decency to ask Jeeves to replace it with one of the many from the supply room.

Ta Ta for now.

Same logic used by every conman since Methuselah!

You love your absolutes, which are not even true. If you said every con man breathed air, that would be true. But what you've stated is not truth. And I don't appreciate the ad hominem attack. Don't that again and I will report you.

Well, I've made my living in the music industry for 25 years supporting a wife and 6 children. That's where my belief comes from.

I know plenty of others who have as well. Not everyone, and not no one.

There are always plenty of exceptions to the rule BUT many times more than that on the other side of the equation! While there is truth in your platitude it is also true that such are often used to sell shovels. I cannot even remember how many "you can do it too"/Tony Robbins type of seminars I have attended and watched 99.9% of the people walk out momentarily motivated only to fail altogether shortly thereafter. Does it mean no one can achieve the promised results? Of course not! But this is probably one of the very worst times to consider a career in music so when someone says it is easy to earn a decent living I call BS!

I don't think it's easy. Then again, I haven't seen many things that are.

Yeah except, not! To quote one of the sources, "You should probably buy lottery tickets instead."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/03/02/why-almost-no-one-is-making-a-living-on-youtube/

http://fortune.com/2018/02/27/youtube-success-poverty-wages/

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/even-youtube-stars-with-14-million-monthly-viewers-earn-less-than-17000-a-year-research-shows.html

Also, with all of the email offers I receive certainly one of them must be a real Nigerian prince with $25 million to share, right? (Hint: the answer is NO!)

I agree with you! I just wish there was a better way to quantify odds of success IRL with these things.

Many years ago when I went to college you would sit with a counselor and try and match your interests, skills, potential, etc. with the projected job market. You could get an idea of how much you would need to invest in education and then how easy it would be to find a job in your chosen field.

So nowadays a conversation like that might go, "If you wanna work in the medical field without a doctor-level degree then a Dental Hygienist is a growing field that pays a median yearly salary of $74,070." If you train in that field you are almost certain to score a job and reach that level of pay in a fairly short/predictable time.

Maybe you are technical and find that a Web Developer median pay is $67,990; there are plenty of positions available. Or maybe you prefer a trade such as HVAC Technician with a median pay of $47,080 and these folks are always in demand. And so on.

But when someone chooses music as a career nowadays I have to believe this path is fraught with risks quite similar to those of wannabe actors out in Hollywood waiting tables for years waiting for that big break.

None of this means you shouldn't go for it if it is your dream and you are willing to put in the hard work. But it strikes me as sad not to prepare yourself for the odds before dedicating yourself to that path.

BTW, I also do not buy lottery tickets!

Or consider "Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better" Chris Voss.


I'm in HearToLearn's corner on this one. In less than a minute I was able to come up with 5 names of people I know personally who self produced CD's/albums that sold in excess of 1,000 units in weeks not years. I will guess not another of the 27,000 plus forum members would have heard of more than one of these people; most forum members will not have heard of any of these folks and their music. JohnJohnJohn is right. Their dream may have started to be the next Rod Stewart, Bob Dylan or Blake Shelton. The bottom line is their dream was no impediment at all to their success in earning income from music. Dreams can stay in your head forever. Money goes into your pocket.


JohnJohnJohn is right again. If you think playing a 4 hour gig for $65 is all there is to be made in music, that's all he'll find. There are plenty of businessmen/women who will gladly accept your skills and pay you that $65 salary and gross $2,500 dollars off your 4 hour event.

I watched a DJ develop himself to the degree he had the confidence, skill and knowledge to charge $250 to shine a monogram on a wall at a wedding. To have 7 events on a weekend running consecutively each earning him in excess of $1,200 gross income all the while paying employees who were use to earning $300 to DJ an event, $350 to work his event.... To use his contacts, opportunity and sales acumen to book local bands into gigs paying them $3,500 when they had never earned $700 at a gig on their own. He didn't accomplish this because he thought of himself as a DJ but because he thought of DJ'ing as a business.


I'll skip participating in JohnJohnJohn's book.

You seem to be saying a music career is easy to do if you only do the right things and buy the right shovels from the genius stay-at-home-mom. Of course it is possible to make a living in music but it is NOT easy or even likely for the vast majority of people! To suggest otherwise is just silly!

I'm not exactly sure if this has anything to do with the conversation about making a living with music but Roger Miller had an humorous take about "star power" with his song, +++ Kansas City Star +++.

For the sake of silliness, let's re-visit "Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better" Chris Voss.

If I'm to guess, I'm speculating you think a music career is mainly performing. That not everyone can write a song, record a record, brand their self, market their material and so on. You're thinking you have to be discovered by some big record executive or win American Idol. If that's the case, you're confusing fame and fortune with making a living in music.

Here's a "Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better" scenario for you. There are likely many forum members who fit into this profile. Music is their hobby and over the years they've created a nice home studio, collected various instruments and equipment. Repurposed their garage for a 'home studio' and in short have $10,000 total invested in their hobby of music. A nice mixer, several amps, two Mackie subs, two tops, 6-8 dynamic mics and a 24 channel snake they got from their church when the Sanctuary was updated to digital three years ago. They have everything they need to set up a five piece band. They can't find reliable players and no club wants to pay any 'real' money to bands anymore. That's your world of music...

What you want is to perform playing music. What might be better? Your real job is working for a prominent fortune 500 company. You're at work and on break several of your co-workers are discussing the upcoming annual spring employee and family appreciation picnic day. Because you know it's hard to make it in a music career, and even more unlikely for someone like you, it never occurs to you to ask what the sound budget is for the day and to offer your services and equipment for the job. Later you learn the budget was $1,200. You've missed a great opportunity and excellent chance at repeat business. The same thing could happen at your children's school play, awards ceremony, athletic events. Same thing at the town festival, church festivals, Uncle Bob's and Aunt Mary's 50th anniversary. Most of these types of events are too small and won't have the budget or need for a professional sound crew and equipment and don't want to pay $700 or more for a DJ but would gladly pay you $350 for a two hour gig rather than pulling that 6 channel peavey mixer head and those old stereo speakers from the conference room and Ms. Betty from the kitchen crew to serve as MC. Corporate gigs can easily pull in over a thousand dollars for a half day and it's very likely you have better gear and skills than the Marriott offers in their conference room.

And another: Maybe cousin Larry talks you into going to hear a hot new Gospel group. While there, it's not your favorite type of music but you're impressed with the group's talent. Everything is tight but the whole performance it doesn't seem they every really get their sound dialed in. You tell yourself and cuz Larry you've got better equipment than they do and you certainly could improve their sound with what little you know about running sound. You mingle with the folks and group after the performance and during small talk learn they do over 100 shows a year - making their living performing. It never occurs to you to offer your services and equipment and become their sound engineer and pick up a gig of 100 shows.


Making a living in music is not hard. It is easy if you know what opportunities exist, where they are and have a willingness to work. You may think $350 is silly and beneath your musical talent but not me.


There are literally dozens of different ways to 'make a living' with music. Consider maybe part time teaching 40 students 30 minute lessons a week at $20 is $800 gross per week for 20 hours work... Offer a BIAB generated practice CD for $10 per student for an additional $400 and $1,200 per week career in music... I know, that sounds nearly impossible for an average person to do, silly me.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree! All of your examples are anecdotal and not based on actual overall market conditions one should assess before embarking on a career choice. Yes, I'm sure there are music biz opportunities out there but your odds of finding something steady that will consistently deliver a decent living are worse than ever before.

I understand there are even whole communities where a fellow can still make a living building horse-drawn buggies. He might need to convert to being Amish but it is possible! Now to be clear, those opportunities are far and few between. Mainly because society has mostly moved beyond horse-drawn buggies!

We're good. Just taking a silly look at other ways of incomes from music.

I will share with you that the stories are real for the most part. I know someone who really got a corporate funded gig in break room chat. I've personally been doing sound for our local school since the 1980's. Since 1992 I've been the full time sound man for my local churches I've attended at one then the other. I do Behringer X32 training and programming for two local churches and consult with two other churches on as needed basis. I make backing tracks for three churches as needed.

I know the person that got a full time gig by approaching a gospel group that needed help with their sound. I was the sound engineer for an Eagles Tribute Band for several years and still program their X32 for each seasons new tour setup or if they have a change in personnel. I also consult and program for them on an as-needed basis.


<<< Now to be clear, those opportunities are far and few between. Mainly because society has mostly moved beyond horse-drawn buggies! >>>

The good news here is you're only correct about horse drawn buggies. The opportunities are near and many. If you live anywhere near a metro area, there will literally be dozens of churches, civic organizations, small and large public and private businesses, Possibly national corporations, hotel chains that accommodate conferences and conventions as well a schools that utilize PA systems big and small.


You would likely be amazed at the opportunities that will seek you out once your name is out there.


Happy gigging. I'm out of here. Got to program the X32 for the tribute band tonight.

I am with Charlie on this one. I personally do make quite a bit out of my music by simply doing more of what works and less of what doesn’t. Granted it is not a living but it is growing all the time. The money I make comes from:

1. My course
2. Doing things for others on Fiverr (tuning vocals, singing jingles, making play along videos)
3. My Youtube channel (specifically my play-along videos)

I have made almost $0 (or even less than $0 in some cases) out of some of the things I have tried such as:
1. Music licensing
2. Performing (including at our National Arts Festival)
3. Recording and Releasing music (both covers and originals) on digital platforms.
4. Facebook
5. Periscope
6. Twitter
7. Writing and recording original songs

In the in-between category, I have made some money out of the following (but these do take quite a bit of effort)

1. Performing for tips on Streetjelly
2. Recording and selling CDs at my live shows
3. Doing private gigs

In short, I try to be of service to others and devote my energies 100% to what life puts in-front of me. I do still intend to carry on doing some of the things in the second and third category because I love it.....

Who knows what may lie around the corner.

Very nicely described Joanne, thanks!

Yeah Joanne, this is great.

While I am not making a fortune by any means, I am just pleasantly surprised that complete strangers are buying entire albums I have put out, recorded at home.

By far some of the most fun I have had in a long time is just interacting with happy people on the forum, doing some collabs, making new friends. I have made some GREAT friends on this forum.

But as you have implied, it is all just so much FUN--in what otherwise could be a rather dreary and disturbing world.

Making music just makes me happy, it is as simple as that. I don't care if I never make "real money"--whatever that is. Real money has different definitions for everyone.

But you can't buy happy--and that's what music gives me so I'm sticking with that, hobby or not, it's what I love.

I don't mean this to be rude but the reason most performing artist don't make much money is because they lack the skill to compete.

Just ask yourself these type questions.

1. Have I spent seven to ten thousand hours studying my instrument?
2. Can I sing as well as Whitney Houston or Freddy Mercury?
3. Can I play my instrument better than my idol?
4. Do I have the business skills to run my music business or any business?
5. Do I have the sort of image the public will pay for?
6. Can I manage to not die of drug addiction if I am successful?
7. Have I ever decided how much money I wanted to make?
8. What action have I taken in the last day or two toward any of this?


I know bands who do not have all of the above skills. A few I know work really hard and play 200 to 250 nights a year. Depending on where they live they are making $20,000 to $50,000 per year. Most have day jobs and many are music related.

Other music industry jobs. Film Scoring. $40,000 to $50,000 a year. The days of making 20 to 30K a week are long gone and will never return. Netflex is spending huge amounts of money so there are a few more jobs around. There are a few people who have made millions and still do.

Now...lets go to the bottom of the barrel. I can take my acoustic guitar and walk around any city and make enough money to buy something to eat and sleep under a bridge. So...you think that is really bad? Would you rather spend the night in Syria? How about Mozambique? Anyone been worried about being eaten by a lion lately? Had to watch your kid die of starvation lately?

The point is that how much money you make is relative. Chances are if you live in the United States and make $300,000 next year you will complain that it is not enough.

Cheers,

Billy

Lack of skills? I doubt that. The whole popular music industry is more political than Washington. Do some research on how songs are picked for the top 40.

I have a friend who worked for a popular midwest radio station in the middle of the night. For some reason he had a time slot that was not filled with a song. So he chose the B side of a record to fill the silence. It was 3 AM and by 6 AM he was fired.

...Deb

Deb,

Thanks for this observation. I think you are right in so many ways.

I find the forum to be interesting in how many different sides there are to everything, but any topic can be examined from a hundred angles, I guess.

Since this website is the product of a music software company which allows people to write and produce songs at home, the only arguments that really pique my attention are musical arguments--when someone composes and produces a SONG (instrumental or with vocals) and puts that song out there to say, in effect, "Try this one on for size."

If the song is great, I feel happy, I smile, and I have respect for that person's gumption. As Handel was told by his father, "Son, if you don't like modern church music, go write some church songs of your own."

Bottom line, I like it when people make their musical points with music, at the end of the day.

Five billion words of insight about music will leave almost no impression on me if there is not music to back it up. I get hundreds of spam emails a week from people screaming at the top of their lungs that if I only pay $29.95 a month, they will teach me to get to the top of the golden charts.

Do they have any music or songs to back this up?

Of course not.

I am impressed by musical arguments, though, when a person makes their argument in a song.

That is why I spend most of my time on this website on the showcase.

Oddly, this subject came up in an article just yesterday. Here's Don McLean's take on music as a career and money.


Don McLean finance article


Look at his time at his earning peak. Tax rate was 70% and everyone was getting a piece of his 'American Pie' literally. Of a million dollars he earned, he go to net $100.000 at the end of the day. $65,000 went toward purchasing a home. He still owns that home today. His story falls right in line with the thrust of what my brother was trying to teach me years ago. You only have to get it right once and keep the net money you make.

Thank you for sharing the Don McLean article. He makes perfect sense about the financial part of his career.

And, I didn't know he had another CD out.

...Deb

I was one of the lucky ones that could make a living at music, tho it was as a Live Musician for Hire. These days with so few places to play that PAY you decent $$$ I could not see a life as I lead for close to 4 decades.

I will bet that you COULD make a living as a muso / song writer in today's market, but it would be VERY hard work for VERY little moola for a few years.....

Now i wonder if he got his hard working man's well deserved royalties .... or that he ripped off by some Far Eastern Big Industrial Country with no scruples ...

<<< Now I wonder if he got his hard working man's well deserved royalties ... or that he ripped off by some Far Eastern Big Industrial Country with no scruples …. >>>

According to Celebrity Net worth site and several other sites, Edison's net worth when he died in 1931 was $12 million dollars ($170 Million 2018) so he undoubtedly got his hard working man's well deserved royalties, and other deserved income and recognition as well. 2,332 patents in his lifetime.


The statement of 1,000 unsuccessful attempts before inventing the light bulb is actually inaccurate to me. What he failed at completing was not the idea, theory or achievement of a working light bulb but rather making a commercially viable light bulb product. He constructed hundreds of operating light bulbs they just were not suitable as a final cost and energy efficient consumer product.


He was like so many songwriters; Seeking not to just write a song (of which they write hundreds if not a thousand - sort of like Edison's lightbulb) but to write a super hit... that consumers will by the millions... All of the hundreds or thousand songs were not necessarily failures at being a song, or even good songs, they just were not the commercial success the songwriter was seeking.

EDIT: Well deserved - Everyone knows Edison but no one can name the one's that rip him off.

Charlie-really great points. Actually though, Edison is credited with saying 10,000. I do see many people say 1000, though. Pretty amazing really either way.

Tesla, has always been my guy though. It's pretty cool to see him starting to get some recognition. I studied both of them at length when I was younger. Amazing people!

Telsa's DC model for long distance electrical household current transmission was superior to Edison's AC model but Edison had the greater political clout to sell his idea. There is a lot of waste and lost energy along AC transmission lines.

Actually it was Tesla who invented Alternating current.

AC is much more efficient than DC for transmitting electricity over great distances.

This is what I thought also. Researching proved this right.

You're right. I had it backwards. I should have thought of the Telsa Coil and Westinghouse!

Telsa was an Edison employee for some time. During that time Edison filed more than 16 patents based on Telsa's discoveries and inventions. Telsa quit after Edison refused to pay royalties Edison was contractually obligated to pay. The Edison Company merged with another to become General Electric.

Telsa was hired by the company that became Westinghouse. Both Edison and Westinghouse bid on the opportunity to provide the lighting for the 1893 Chicago World Fair. Westinghouse won the bid and Telsa was tasked with inventing a light bulb that wouldn't infringe on Edison's patent and have 93,000 built and installed by the time the fair opened.

+++ HERE +++ is a Wikipedia article about the fair. Section 8, Electricity, has informative section about the AC/DC battle and the Edison/Telsa feud.

While it's an old subject to return to, I found it interesting that even Graham Cochran of the Recording Revolution has jumped on the 1000 fan bandwagon and he shares with us the concept has been around since 2008 in his blog - HERE _ . It seems that this subject is discussed beyond our confines here on the forum.

Wanted to jump in on this conversation and offer my 2 cents. I confess that I haven't read all the replies, so somebody may have already covered this, but a point to be made about the numbers the OP mentions, and how it relates to spotify/streaming income.

Keep in mind that a substantial portion of the monies you receive from Spotify are royalties due to you as a label/artist. The actual songwriting portion of that money is very small, something like 14x less than the label/artist portion. Obviously, if you write/perform/record/release your own stuff, you stand to make quite a bit more money than if you were relying on the songwriter portion of those payments alone.

That's why I'm of the opinion that guys like me who've made their living writing songs for other people to record are dinosaurs...the meteor has hit, and we're just wandering around waiting to become extinct -another reason why you see so many successful writer selling books, teaching classes, and shamefully even charging people a fee to allow them to co-write a song with them (some of my friends/peers are guilty as charged).

I fully endorse the notion of "keep it/sell it/own it". There are a lot of people out there making a living by selling "how-to" guides for a dream that doesn't really exist anymore. I'm glad I was around for "the good ol' days" of songwriting, but it's a whole new world now and it ain't going back.

I'll stop now, I'm sermonizing. Just thought I'd share my thoughts.

Ain't that the truth! And the only folks left making money are the shovel salesmen!

Hi David
I have seen a couple of videos of BIAB and its obviously really impressive. As you have massive expeience with it and with songwriting i do have a question. I write using a piano sometimes guitar. I 'create' interesting chord and melody ideas along with lyrics. The thing is how on earth do i get BIAB to actually back say my paino piece as it has quite different chord variations and nuances.Wouldnt it just railroad over the piece and poss ruin the original feel?Sorry if this is a rather daft question...

Welcome to the forum, your first post. Congrats.

This question should be in the Band in a Box forum, Windows or Mac whichever you use. I'll give you a response here anyway.

You're asking two things, chords and feel. Biab is designed to do exactly what it's name says. Be your backup band. Real musicians will rarely play a song EXACTLY as written, different players like guitar or piano will play different inversions or add a passing note or whatever because they think it sounds better. That's what Biab does too but you still have some control over that.

Right click anywhere in the chord grid and select Song Settings. On the left of that window see Force Song to Simple Arrangement and check that box. Also under the Edit menu see the checkbox Jazz Down the Chords. That will stop Biab from making too many changes to your chords. Even with these controls Biab may still make a few changes. If that happens regenerate the song again and you may have to do that several times until you like it. Once you like it freeze the tracks so a regeneration won't wipe that out.

A strength of Biab is the fact that regeneration will change things up a little and many people like that but if you don't want that then use the Freeze option. You see that when you right click on an instrument name and look for Track Settings>Freeze Track.

As for the feel that is controlled by the style you choose, either Midi, Real Tracks or both.

Bob

What Bob said!!

Thank you Bob (and Dave!)
Yes my first post and a great answer and thank you for the welcome
I find it really encouraging what you said and will definitely give BIAB a real go. Point taken and am quite excited to see what BIAB comes up with. I was in bands for years and agree musicians bring their own ideas and the best can bring out the best in original songs. Many moons ago i used here in the UK to spend many days in London going round to A&R departments - most of the major labels. I used to be daft allowing them to to take copies and the bits they liked and sometime later hear my melodies/ideas used !! I guess like a lot of things back in the eighties, it was seen as fair game☹Anyway have hundreds of songs and part songs in moth balls and some new ones so let’s see if BIAB can help me breath some life into them

You're welcome. Now, if you have other questions about Biab you should start a new thread in the actual Biab for Windows or Mac forum. Other songwriting comments or discussion would stay here.

Bob

Thanks Bob. No doubt i will be visiting both compostion and production:)
Paul

Hmmmmm.

I did it, I guess. I put it in another post for freshness, but here that is:

***


Hey Y'all,

OK, I have been MIA, I know, working on a book, missing everyone, got to get back I know!

BUT, I thought about my long lost SongTradr account and logged in and saw I had made a pretty nice chunk of change when someone bought a Celtic tune for a video.

Well, ok, so I did make my money back!

And let me just say, to all of my adoring fans, that this will in no way change me, because as I know, in my humble servant's heart, that the way of the modest man is to ponder the...

Ok, the joke is not going to work, but anyway, I thought that was cool. I need to fire up my Band in a Box and log back in!!!!!!

Wow!

Way to go, David -- congratulations!

I need to fire up my Band in a Box and log back in!!!!!!


Well what you waiting for, C'mon back.

Welcome back David,

You've been missed!

in reality it was an invention with stolen and bullied acquisition of patents + some time, sweat and a few ideas. He was a low life.

My My ...you also know more than the average joe along with hear more !!!.

Very talented.


I was just reciting a famous quote, I've no idea if it is true or not And couldn't really care anyway just using it in the way it sends... a message out.