Just thought I'd throw this out for something to think about.
An aspect that some developing songwriters may not have thought much about before...

A number of comments in my most recent song in the Showcase (Where Do You Start), have been about the "beat" of the vocal - as Tangmo referred to it - which I think is a good way to think of it. Others mention the vocal "phrasing"...

I often refer to it as Vocal Cadence or Vocal Rhythm. The vocal - or the voice, itself, actually - becomes part of "what makes a song work"... a main instrument in the sound of the song....

...which is an important aspect of Songwriting. Much of Pop music is more about this aspect of a song than any other part. Rock, too (Folk is seldom about this. Singer-songwriter, depends on the singer/songwriter).

Typically those who are best at it are, in fact, also singers and/or musician. It is a rare (talented) "lyricist only" who can get that across (in a lyric alone).

There are many good examples in Pop radio. Here is one of the all-time best... Pay attention how the "singing of the words" falls on your ear. When done right, little else is needed...

What a primo example. It's not about "quantizing", is it? In this song (as well as yours) there is syncopation, and singing "against" (as opposed to completely along with) the pulses in the piano rhythm. The earlier in the songwriting process you can get that "feel", the better--no matter how you tend to write. In Floyd's song, the rhythmic groove (especially at his tempo) was wide, and he "surfed" it just as she did here...but he never went over the edge, and I've not heard him do it yet. Carole King didn't sing every parallel phrase exactly the same way...and I've heard other performances that were "phrased" differently. But no matter how she chose at the moment or in rehearsal to do it, it's right and "feels" right. And it's right because she wrote it that way.

My go-to example is James Taylor's "Mexico".

Another good "method" to get this into your soul is to listen to the bass, if it's an active bass-line. Latin, Funk, whatever if it is much more than thump-thump-thump. WHERE (when) the bass licks hit, how hard, and how long they hold is maybe even more important than what notes are hit. Same with a vocal in most popular music. As long as it remains musical, the rhythm of the vocal supersedes the melody even if it doesn't replace it.

When melody, words (and their melodic delivery), and the rhythm of the vocal all work together...that's a good song--even with just a piano or guitar accompaniment. I'd agree with Floyd...the most important of those elements is the rhythm of the vocal.

Interesting thoughts and a great example! I think Diana Krall also does it well with the songs she writes.

Bud

Man, what a GREAT topic! What has been said here is so right on.


Great stuff. I love these conversations.

*Edited to take out the confusion of what I said.

Here is a new favorite of mine.

A GREAT example of "Vocal Rhythm" in writing!!! It makes this SOAR!



Never knew my old man's truck could even run like that
Should've known better than to take that curve so fast
Daddy pulled up, I was down in a ditch
He asked me why I did what I did

There was this girl, drink in her hand
Shootin' me a "let's get into trouble" grin
I ain't never seen somethin' so fine
And I was doin' anything to make her mine
I was out of my mind, she was out of this world
There was this girl

Some folks ask me why I still pick this guitar
They say livin' that life on the road won't get you very far
I say man you should've been down in Tupelo
Seen what was in the front row

There was this girl, beer in her hand
Shootin' me a "play a little Skynyrd" grin
She's turnin' it up, she's turnin' me on
And I'd play her anything she'd sing along
I was out of my mind, she was out of this world
There was this girl
Yeah there was this girl

Didn't know a diamond ring could cost so much (damn)
Took six months on a farm 'fore I saved up
All my drinkin' buddies still out on the town
Wonderin' why I ever settled down

But there was this girl, holdin' my hand
Shootin' me a "start a life together" grin
She's pullin' me in, she's straightenin' me out
And now I know what love is all about
I'm still out of my mind, she's still out of this world
There was this girl
Yeah, there was this girl
Yeah, there was this girl
There was this girl

Songwriters: Erik Dylan / Riley Green
There Was This Girl lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc, Peermusic Publishing

Keep in mind...

This is NOT about how great singers sing (and phrase a song). That's a different discussion.

It's about how a song is WRITTEN using what will be "vocal rhythm" to get a lyric across.

Agreed. I went a bit of tangent there; and did not want to cause confusion by adding the other elements of the singer's interpretation.

Exactly. How does a person write even a second line (much less a second verse) if he/she doesn't know how it's going to be sung--the rhythm of the words. And it may include syllable count, but it's not limited to that. Inflection, strong and weak accents. How much time does it take to deliver that line or phrase or word--more-or-less a beat. a bar, two bars, three and a half bars? As many other considerations as can be brought to bear. And most importantly, WHY? What is about the lyric as a whole and a phrase or line in particular that merits/begs for/requires these considerations?

Take "bubble". Why does BUUUUbble sound natural in a song, but BubbLLLLe sound wonky and awkward? Neither is the way anybody says it. Those choices are worked out in the write. That's an extreme example, but I guarantee you someone has written a song and sang "bubbLLLLe" to try to match a melody. I see that lazy so-and-so in the mirror every day.

Tempo and key can be changed. Melody is malleable and is itself influenced by the rhythm of the words. The "band" can take a groove in many different directions. But the rhythm of the words in a song is what the song "is" at it's core.

I contend that if a writer doesn't make those choices in the course of writing (is unable mentally or physically to "sing" those words), then he/she hasn't written a song at all. It's a poem and wannabe song-lyric. If he/she can but his/her choices have simply been sub-par, then at least it qualifies as a song.

Some somewhat current bands and songs that I think have well crafted prosody:

1. Elbow - My favorite song by them is 'Magnificent': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQl5KYiiFDI

2. Kings of Leon: The End: https://youtu.be/4B-t-WDRuXQ (it's really interesting to listen to the progression of this band from noise-makers to some of my favorite songwriters with great bass lines in many of their songs. This one is pretty simple, but the prosody in the verses is great.

3. Arctic Monkeys: Do I Wanna Know: https://youtu.be/bpOSxM0rNPM Warning-suggestive imagery in the video.
The verses in this one have a great loping feel, particularly with the 'false endings' in some of the phrases, where the sentence could end, but there's another vocal lyrical hook coming in that line. These guys don't win any awards for thought provoking lyrics - but this particular song and album have lots of examples of great melody/prosody/riff connectivity.

4. Death Cab for Cutie: Last couple of albums have had great 'The Smiths' and other guitar bands from the 80's UK New Wave sound - this recent single is a great one: Northern Lights - https://youtu.be/gBdh20C287Y

5. Arcade Fire: Suburban War https://youtu.be/cNdqoQWz34E Love the prosody in this one in several sections, this is like a mini-symphony in three movements. Singer isn't necessarily that great but just listen to the lilt of the lyrics.

This is a great video, and an awesome topic for discussion. I've always cherish vocal cadence (or vocal rhythm to the vocals) in music I love most. I know it isn't a particularly popular genre in the forums, but it's why I love hip hop and rap music. Rhythm in music in particular can make or break a song for me.

Interpol is one band I love that does this particularly well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpgz3uQ58U

Gregory & The Hawk is another artist that scratches that itch for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0rE8dI6dRg

A Russian singer names Kuzina always does it for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvhXqRjvCfw

And a million others I can't immediately think of, but these 3 are in my heavily rotation at the moment so figured I'd share them.

I worked on a number of songs with a co writer who insisted that the syllable count in the verses match exactly. Even now when I write my own stuff and work with other writers, that sticks in the back of my mind. I don't always follow that rule but mostly I try to.

The topic of this thread goes beyond plain old syllable count into the rhythm imparted to the lyrics by the choice of words and how they are sung. The connection to what I said I think goes into... what you do in verse one.... you gotta do in the other verses too for it to really work well.

Good topic.

Thanks for sharing the Charlie Pluth video, Floyd. Haven't heard of that guy, but it's a unique example. Great pop tune that certainly will move butts! Even if it sounds programmed to an extent. Love the pre-chorus and the chorus slow down of syllables while using the rhythm of the verses. Dang it's catchy.

BTW, My ears were about 6 or 7 years old when the Carole King song came out and seemed to be in constant rotation on the stations my parents listened to. Because of Carole's bell-like vocal tone, the repeated bah-dah-domp domp, dada dah piano riff, etc. I thought it was a sunny and happy song. Wasn't until years later that I realized the gravity of the words.

Scott - the whole album (Voicenotes) is like that. INFECTIOUS. Very much worth many listens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQnk-h-LCpQ&list=OLAK5uy_n4uwPMsdKXpeeyXCDgMmI-p6jdx5e3Phs

For those interested, the free songwriting class that Pat Pattison teaches at Berklee goes into great detail about prosody as it relates to syllable choice and placement in the rhythmic structure. Thanks again to Noel96 for turning me on to that class 7 or 8 years ago.

https://youtu.be/OsuAkEOODt4

gives just a little taste.

You know, Floyd, listening again to this song - I could totally imagine Michael Jackson doing this song. The guitar riffs, the booty shaking bass line with just the right number of notes, etc. Did Quincy Jones produce this guy?

He produced himself.

And maybe that's part of the point. If you're hearing a commercially released song, it's because it got at least passing marks in vocal rhythm.. Listeners notice these things more when they are sub-optimal or lacking than when they are brilliant. Writers should have a more proactive view of this.

Those are really good, btw. I'd not heard any of them here in my cave. It's a bit hard to know how "right" the song in Russian was on all counts, but her vocal licks fell very nicely.

I'm with you on Rap and Hip Hop as it relates to this. At it's best, it's something to admire and even to emulate no matter the genre.

Glad you digged the tunes - the thing I like about hip hop and rap vocals, is it is vocals which depend entirely on the vocal cadence. I just find it an interesting concept. No other genre of music immediately comes to mind where rhythm plays such an important roll. Not for everybody, for sure, but neither is jazz or country.

It is cool to me that we all agree the cadence of a singer's vocals is important. And it's cool to me that hip hop music took that fact and cranked the meter to 100. The rhythms a lot of rappers portray in their vocal performance is very, very dense and complex. It's unfortunate a lot of big names don't represent the talent required, or show off the diversity that exists withinin the genre.

Rhythm is among my favourite qualities in music.

Another master of this technique is Jimmy Buffet. Once you listen for it, virtually everything they do showcases this talent:
I Wish I Had a Pencil Thin Moustrache
Another great example is the bawdy bar room ballad, "Why Don't We Get Drunk?" Also on You Tube.
Then, of course, there is always this one:
Its Five O'Clock Somewhere
This would be an interesting tech topic to put to the engineers at PGM, wouldn't it?

There has been some really great points raised here. Definitely some food for thought.

Rhythm is so important! - It gives us so much information about the context of music.

There is an organ in Germany playing a piece loosely translated to "As slow as possible" that people gather to predict the next note... every 20 years or so. Quite fascinating really

Intonation or cadence in singing is the exact reproduction of sounds in pitch. Simply put, it is pure singing, without falseness, accurate hitting the notes. The correct cadence is the purity of the melody singing and the correct coordination of pitch hearing and voice.
Accordingly, in songwriting, this skill is not so important. Not all composers can perform their compositions perfectly because they hone other skills. Of course, a Young Money artist Young Money artist does not need either the first or the second, only pathos and shared love.
Although I understand that you are just talking about the importance of vocal cadence training.

Great song, great video, Floyd. Reminds me a bit of the version of "It's Five-O'Clock Somewhere" with and by Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffet, filmed live in some bar in Florida. Similar feel to it. Jimmy Buffet is a master of siinging on the island beat, hey?

Hey Deryk, thanks for your inputs on hip hop and rap. I am just starting to become interested in these genres (coming from a background of rock, folk and country). What artists/albums/songs would you recommend as a decent introduction? I am familiar with Lose Yourself and love it! Also, hits like Old Town Road which I guess is kinda genre-bending! But I feel like I kinda missed out and wanna catch up a bit!

Really though, when you think about it, those two things are very closely related cousins.

Take the same song that was a hit for two different singers and they can phrase it differently. Take any of a bunch of Willie Nelson's songs as the example here.

Yep... it's very hard to get the phrasing and rhythmic feel of a lyric just from the written words. It's then up to the singer to interpret the song as they best see fit. If they have a demo, that makes life simpler.

Regarding the concept that the rhythm of the singing is an integral part of making the song what it is..... oh yes, absolutely.

One of the fundamentals of this, IMHO, is vocal meter, and it's a fundamental part of poetry. Songwriters should probably first and foremost be poets is some form.

I think it's actually quite helpful to conscientiously think about poetic meters for songs and lyrics. On of the things I find a little disappointing is where the meter is mangled to make the chosen words fit, rather than spending more time finding a words form that both says what one wants and has the appropriate meter. Meter is remarkably powerful, I think.

IIRC someone posted a link to one of the following a while back, but maybe this is a good time to link again.
12-tone -- A Brief Discussion Of Poetic Meter
12-tone -- Shakespeare's Favorite Poems


FWIW, it took me a little while, but I have learned to like at least some Rap, though usually where it has a jazz-fusion aspect.