Working on songwriting and arranging.
Creating melodies, I can handle. But chords and chords progression is not my best part.
Doing this in midi. Not in BIAB.

I am getting good results if I create chords by ear. This means moving the chord notes until the chords sound good with the melody. But I am also creating chords outside the key.
For instance in the key of C Maj, I have a good sound chord with A# D F. Fits good with the melody. But not a key chord.
I trust my ears, but they are inexperienced.

Is this something I can continue with (creating chords by ear), or I am going to run into problems.

If it sounds good, then it's good.

As I see it... with music, it's ultimately about sound so trust your ears. When you get to something that you don't understand, then look up the theory if or when needed.

As for A#-D-F, that is mostly like a Bb chord (Bb-D-F) since A# = Bb. While this chord is more likely to appear in the major keys of F, Bb and Eb, it could still certainly be used in the key of C major.

I've just written a song where I used Bb as the flattened 7th in the key of C (this chord often arises in popular music). The progression I ended up with was C-Am-Bb-F-Gsus

Regards,
Noel

• one of my songs: Can You Imagine? (remix)

"Key" is a bit over-rated when you're talking about chords/progression. "Key" is mostly about scales.

"Is this something I can continue with (creating chords by ear), or I am going to run into problems." Ultimately, even with a knowledge of diatonic chord theory, you are creating chords by ear. What sounds good? What creates the mood and movement you want? Knowing the diatonic chords in a key is a great baseline. But there are so many variations available beyond those basic 7 chords that are equally "musical" and ultimately maybe even more interesting for a particular song. Definitely trust your ears.

That is good news. Will save me a lot of headache and time.

So the rule a certain chord has to lead to a certain few chords is more a guideline then a rule. V to I and ending on I, are the only ones I will have to keep in mind? Because they are strong and good for closure.

The only rule of music. First and foremost, trust your ears.

Amin is the relative minor of Cmaj.
AMaj is the 6th of the C scale.
But, what is the A# chord or A# scale relative to CMaj called?
Anyone know?

Ed,

As I mentioned above, the most likely chord is a Bb chord (since A# is equivalent to Bb). If that's the case, it would make the chord that Leo mentioned a triad based on the flattened 7th of the C major scale. This is a relatively popular chord these days.

Here's a small article about it

https://www.songwriting.net/blog/topic/flat-seven-chord

Regards,
Noel

Thanks for the replies. I am going to trust my ears. There was doubt because I am new to this. My ears are good, my knowledge not so.

Tip: If you want to know the name of a chord you have created, search Google for it: A# D F chord

The first page at Google gives 26 chords names which they belong to.

So, Noel, we call it the flat seven, hey?
BTW: Remember this little jewel somebody came across?
https://www.fretflip.com/

Hi Ed.

Yes... given that Leo said he was in the key of C, the flat 7 chord seems a good interpretation. Without hearing him playing the music, though, and knowing the surrounding musical texture, it's not possible to know with certainty.

I really like flat 7 chords.

Here are some progressions that you might like to try...

https://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/2011/05/06/using-a-flat-vii-chord-in-your-songs-progressions/

Also, thank you for the link to fretflip. I haven't seen this before. It's very interesting.

All the best,
Noel

"A" is the sixth note of a C major scale. But the diatonic chord built from it is an Amin.

The Bb (A#) might be said by a music theorist to be borrowed from another mode of C major. There are 3 modes of C that have a Bb as the VII chord. One is a major mode--Mixolydian. Two are minor modes--Dorian and Aeolian (usually just referred to as "Minor"). As Noel said, what is what would depend on other factors.

As for me, I'd just do what sounds and feels right and leave it to "theorists and theory" to explain what I did. It's liberating to know there are options, however, and theory can point the way.

Absolutely not a rule. V to I is certainly a strong resolution (maybe top-of-the-heap for strength), but other moves to "I" have different feels that might be what you're looking for in a particular song.

And there is no rule that a song or part of a song must end on the "I" (tonic) triad. I'm working on piece now that ends on a Idim, because that's the "emotion" I want to convey. The "I" triad doesn't even have to appear in the song at all.

Have fun.

Song writing is a HUGE topic with so many side roads and rabbit trails..... It's easy to get lost and overwhelmed by the vastness of the topic and the information. People who have spent a lifetime studying music theory are still learning new things every day they work with it.



This sounds like you should study music theory a bit. That way, you will have an understanding of what you're doing, and how to get there when you want to do something. I'd suggest perhaps looking to see if the local community college offers music theory as a stand alone class. They normally start new classes in Sept so your timing might just be spot on. Trying to learn theory from a book is not the best way to approach this. Get in a class or find a teacher of music who can tutor you at a reasonable cost until you get to where you need to be to understand it better.

Theory is indispensable when you're working on progressions and scales and building or finding the right chord to use. A# D F is actually the chord triad Bb by itself. In the key of C it becomes a flat 7th chord. Doesn't normally fit but that all depends on how it's used. As others have said.... if it sounds good to you, it can easily work regardless of the theory or the math, or the science behind it because all that matters is the end result to the listener.

Most of all, this should be fun.....

For better or worse we make 'em up as we go w/o a whit of music theory -- not denigrating theory just pointing out we have none. For Janice when it comes to our progressions and melodies it's either "musical" (as she says) or not. Just another way of saying that if it pleases your ear then go for it.

Bud

You know it, have it, and use music theory whether you realize it or not. Many folks like yourselves have learned how to write songs and play an instrument without taking any sort of classical theory class..... but that doesn't mean you haven't learned or understood the theory even though you may not know the technical words or the "rules of the road".

John Lee Hooker knew that in the key of G.... he could use C and D to play a song....he might not have understood why but he just knew it worked. He may not have every taken a music theory class to learn the WHY of that thing that he just naturally did every time he picked up his guitar.

It's how I started playing.....jamming along with songs on the radio.... but then later, I ended up taking music lessons. My teacher of piano taught me the relationships that exist in chords, how inversions change the color of the chord and why, and so much more about music in general and why they exist and how they are used to best effect. Later in school, I took 2 years of dedicated music theory in a very small class. there was a total of 5 kids in that class including me and all of us were involved deeply in music of one sort or another. Now days, I don't set down to write and say to myself, now.... what did Miss Shaw say about the tonic chord with a flatted 7th..... nope. If it fits, it works in that instance. I've forgotten most of that formal stuff with the years but it's still the foundation I work from.

So while you may not be formally educated in music theory, you still use it when you write.

There was a lot of food for thoughts in here. Thanks for the replies. I am going the ear way. It can be done I know now. This will improve and probably I will find chord combinations that I will never find by using (my limited) theory.

I can create melodies and text, because this is an ear thing. But the chord theory is hard for me and I easily forget. And there is so much to learn.

There 220 3 note chords. No thanks. I am going to trust my ears.

This "rule" assumes you know what sounds good. And "sounds good" is extremely subjective. In my opinion this can be handily broken down into 4 groups!

1) good music I like (most country, classic rock, most modern pop, some hip hop, classical, etc.)
2) good music I don't like (jazz, rap, polka, big band, etc.)
3) bad music (someone trying to play but having little or no knowledge of how music is created)
4) not music (your baby pounds on your keyboard and makes sounds)

You could add subcategories to #1 and #2 like played great, played OK, played poorly, etc. But #3 and #4 don't need subcategories IMHO!

With that all said I am willing to admit that even if you are "playing" "music" in categories #3 and #4, if you (or your mom or anyone really) enjoy it then it is good enough for you and your "fans"!