Well hello, everyone, it's me again with yet more questions! Y'all have been SO kind and it's made the difference between my being hopelessly lost and actually making some progress. Thank you from the bottom of my heart!

In the Technical Question thread, Herb posted a link to his song and I can sing mine to that sound... so as improbable as it may be, I believe Blues-n-Ballads Girl here wrote a rock song. It was inspired when an ambulance went wailing past for the eighth time in one day (and another four went by that night while I was writing it!!).

Now I would like to get your advice on styles. I've been listening to them (some days till they blur together!) and having a lot of trouble choosing the right one for my song. I admit to a MAJOR handicap: I have a ballad voice and ballad ears... and I don't. like. static. It's laughable that Acoustic Girl here is writing rock songs! I think the problem I have with static is probably due to my ears ringing (24/7 loud as a vacuum cleaner); distortion makes it worse. BUT in the service of this song I need to go where I have never gone before and cross my fingers I won't hear "He's dead, Jim."

I need something driven, urgent, a little chaotic, with an even feel. My keyboard has a style called "Contemporary Rock" which is actually a cleaner sound than I expected, but it just doesn't work. There's no despair in it, no fear, yanno? I don't need anger and I really can't deal with heavy metal but since the song was sparked by those ambulances wailing past at all hours of the day and night the style's got to be pretty driven.

So far the closest I've got to Herb's style with something I think I can handle is Brit Invasion Fast. I don't want piano at all, and I doubt I'll want organ, although I do have background vocals. I like multiple guitars and it might be weird, but so far I'm using both the bass in the style and my own bass MIDI (I panned them to -8 and 8; might pan them farther).

Do you have a favorite style? Is there something which would be suitably angsty with less static? Maybe it really needs that sound, though. Seriously, if someone with a rock voice (and good ears!) were to sing the song, it could work with a style like Herb used.

I'm open to both RT and MIDI tracks. Thanks for any suggestions you might have!!!

We are kinda in the same boat. I don't have a rock voice either (at least not unless it's more southern). In the "style-picker", you can toggle by genre and locate all the styles you have under "heavy rock". That's likely to be your best starting place for finding something in the feel and tempo.

Beyond that, if you want to use other guitars added to (or replacing) guitars in the style, you have a couple of obvious options.

1. If you use a DAW and common DAW effects, you can apply additional compression to a guitar track which can, when not mixed too loud, give the feel of heavier, rocky guitars without as much in-yer-face volume.

2. Although many of the rock guitars (especially rhythm) do this by default, populate your chord sheet with chords like C5, Bb5, etc. This is a so-called "power chord" which leaves out the third making the chord under distortion less "crunchy", while still being heavy. This might actually work better under Medium Rock or some other classification.

That would definitely be my approach if I was doing what you are wanting to do.

Thank you, Tangmo!!! I appreciate your advice. I'll try the compression when I go to RB.

You know, I automatically default to 7th chords, dominants and minors, probably because of the blues influence. I can try the power chords; that might make a big difference. Thanks for that idea!

Power chords also sound great sustained, so you might consider going through your song and changing all the chords to held power chords (i.e.change chords from something like C to C5...) and render out only the guitar track using an electric guitar.

You can then layer held strums these behind "normal" electric guitar chords, so you get more grit without having to put them up front in the mix.

Considering that I consider myself a "country guy"........


I don't fear exploring other styles. I quite often use rock styles in my country songs. I used LA HARD ROCK in several early on in my time with BB.

With BB, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of really great sounding rock styles complete with the guitars. I did a song a while back that was called Under the Black.... a song about pirates and the series Black Sails that is on Starz TV.... (great series BTW) I used a rock style and while I really wanted to replace the rhythm guitars in the style with my own, I realized that they fit perfectly and there was no reason to actually replace them so I left them.

https://m.soundcloud.com/guitarhacker/under-the-black/s-uEQ34eUZiTe

I provided the leads and one of the rhythm sustained guitars. In the verses, and after the solo, you hear the BB guitars.

To sing rock... it's mostly the attitude and phrasing. It's not sweet and pretty.


For example:

Under the Black is _DOOMED which is a rock cello ballad style

We Ain't Got There Yet is _ANARCHY. which is a Punk Rock style.

You never know which style is going to get the job done until you play with several ..... try it.

Hi, David. Ha! Your sig line made me laugh! If only it were a control knob, eh?

Thanks for the advice. I suspect the reason my song doesn't sound right is the chords. Been away from the computer a lot the past couple days, so tomorrow I'll get back into the song and see what happens when I change it up like that.

Thanks again!

I think you're becoming my hero, there, Mister!! I'll say it again, thank you thank you! You really seem to understand what it is I'm looking for. Going to try my song with power chords (thank you Tangmo and David!!) and _ANARCHY and see what happens. Is it weird to think that if I hate it, I'll finally be on the right track? **laughing at myself**

I actually do have another one which demands to be rock, so I'll check out the other styles you mentioned as well.

Not sweet and pretty. I'm ALWAYS going for sweet and pretty. Oy, lol... this is stretching me as a singer almost as much as learning BIAB is stretching me as an arranger.

Thank you for the link to Under the Black. You did an amazing job with it.

HI Cathie,

here are my thoughts, maybe useful or complete garbage. :-)

Perhaps you could use my method, when I'm writing songs in BIAB. I usually pick a style with 1 or 2 instruments, when composing. Once the song has it's basic form, I start to replace and add Real Tracks or Midi Tracks (mostly for being treated in the DAW by better sounding patches than General MIDI instruments).

Once I have all the Tracks with instruments to my taste I start to work with listening to, where I want my instruments to play and where I want them to be silent. When that is done I start to work with "breaks", helds ect. During that process I often run into the frustration of not being in full control of Real Tracks and how they play, but it still gives me the idea of where and how I want the instruments to sound. At the same time I decide if I'm able to replace any of the tracks with my own playing style to suit the purpose of the song.

When it comes to singing, my voice is not a typical rock or pop vocal, and very often my vocal results never sound like I imagined them in me head from the start or during the process. This is why I spend days, weeks or months to practice my songs, and try to work with the "rhythm" of the lyrics, my flow - these two exercises sometimes show me, that I have to change the lyrics into something more singable. Also I pay special attention to the parts of the song, where I change in register and how to approach that and learn my body and brain to remember it. When I feel confident and have a clear idea on how to perform the vocals - I go to my DAW and start to record my voice (15-20 takes for each part of the song) and afterwards I spend ages with the built in pitch correction and my effect chain to get as near to my idea as possible.

During my last 10 years as DIY home studio musician I learned quite a bit about my vocals, and I accepted that it's at best an average vocal for a sparetime amateur choir, but I've decided that once the pandemic has lost the grip of society, I certainly will invest in a vocal coach. I also learned to accept that only 20% of what I compose passes the eye of the needle, and make it to the DAW, and even less % is made public available. It's a constant, and sometimes very frustrating, ongoing process towards mastering perfection and accept and acknowledge the imperfect self.

You made your reading so far - I hope it made just a little sense.

Hi! It's very nice to meet you! Thank you for sharing your method with me--yes, it was useful! It helps a lot that you mentioned how frustrated you get. I'm about to throw this thing through a wall, myself. NOTHING works properly.

I suppose my problem as a composer is that I always start with lyrics. Starting instead with chords means that more than half my work has to be done first in notation software--and I wouldn't mind that at all if I could just bring it over to BIAB, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how. It just never works.

Maybe I need to be in RB instead of BIAB, but I figured I need to learn how to change out the patches and tracks.

Vocals have always been my weak link in the chain. I like my voice, but it does take 20 or 30 takes to get a full song. Might not be as bad if I'm not trying to play the keyboard at the same time, and one reason I wanted BIAB is that I wanted to be able to record parts of the song instead of going for one long perfect take. But again, maybe that needs to be in RB rather than BIAB. I don't know, I just don't know.

Hi, Cathie.

BiaB can be really frustrating if you're looking for a particular sound. My most successful songs have usually been by finding a style that I like, and then write the melody to that, and add the lyrics last.

It's completely backwards, but the benefits is that you don't have to search for a song to match a set of lyrics, and changing lyrics is often easier than changing an arrangement.

Of course, the downside is that writing lyrics feels like solving in a rhyming crossword puzzle. That's not always a bad thing, though! Sometimes that's what songwriting feels like anyway. And setting constraints can often force you to be more creative.

OK, back to your problem.

When working with electric guitars, keep in mind that there is the sound of the guitar isn't just the "raw" guitar sound, but it's typically run through a number of effects pedals, and then through an amp, which is then recorded by a microphone.

By default, that's the sound you get when you select electric guitars in BiaB.

But more recently, BiaB also allows you to grab the "raw" DI (Direct Input) unprocessed sound of the electric guitar. This isn't available for some of the older RealTracks, as they were recorded before this feature was added.

But you can add effects to them anyway, and sometimes it works well.

You can find this option in the Assign RealTracks to Track dialog in the top middle portion as the Direct Input checkbox.

There's also a Held option, so you don't have to do that tedious process of changing all the chords to holds in the chordsheet like I described. Sorry about not mentioning that before. I thought that feature existed, but forgot where it was. That's often the case with BiaB features.

BiaB allows you to then add a simulated effects chain to the DI sound, so you have freedom to modify the tone on your own.

For example, if you select a DI guitar for a RealTrack, you can then go to the Plugins tab of the Mixer window, click the first column, and choose Choose Plugin. There are a number of built-in effects:

• PG Distortion
• PG Flanger
• PG Guitar Amp
• PG Tremolo

You can even chain these together. For example, you can put PG Distortion in the first slot (that is, the first column), followed by PG Guitar Amp in the second slot. Crank up the distortion of the first effect, and then the gain of the amp, and you've got some classic distorted guitar.

My son just walked by and asked what guitar effects I was using. I told him it was the built-in BiaB effects, and his response was "Sounds good".

If that's not enough, you can find very good free amp and guitar effects. For example, check out FreeAmp3.

At one point, BiaB used to also include the free version of AmpliTube Custom Shop, but I don't think it's part of the install anymore. If you want to install it, click the provided link.

Anyway, using this you should be able to get the custom guitar "tone" that you're looking for, if you don't like the one that comes with the RealTrack.

Cathie
try this alt approach to getting your song ideas down.
(ive done a ton of songs useing pg products over the years.
whether they or i are any good ; who knows.LOL.
but i feel a great sense of satisfaction at takeing an idea from my brain and finally hearing back the full finished song after many hours of work. thus pg products DO WORK.)
AN ALT METHOD.
1. fix firmly in your mind how you want the song to end up.
2. open up realband.
3. go to the option fill trak with drum pattern.
and find a drum pattern you like.
4. now layout the chords to your song in rb.
5. haveing done above just go to RT picker and search function acoustic guitar STRUM. FIND ONE STRUM YOU LIKE THAT FITS YOUR SONG VISION IN YOUR MIND. IE ONE WHERE YOU GO "YEAH THATS SWEET".
at this point cathie the whole idea is to build what are termed "scratch idea traks". ie your just getting the rough idea of the song down. and the arrangement generated in a simple fashion.
(think scratchpad.)
ie pulling the song idea out of ones mind and getting it down in a scratch form.
6.now sing a rough vocal on a spare rb trak. (you have 48.) and repeat vocal AGAIN ON A NEW TRAK. this will give the vocal "character". maybe experiment with some pg fx like echo chorus (just a tad) on one of the vocal traks youve recorded.
7. NOW STEP BACK AND EVALUATE. what does the song need versus what you hear in your mind ? any arrangement changes ? write down in a notebook what the song needs !
8. if happy with arrange now list what other instruments you hear in your mind and start building up test traks useing other RT's and midi traks.

sorry i dont have space to continue. but hopefully this will get you started on the foundation of your song.
GOOD LUCK !
ps if you need a decent audio interface. many are listed in the rb forum by lots of pg users. see the asio sound devices thread. i assume you have a good vocal mic.

best
oldmuso

David, oldmuso, you guys are so kind!! I appreciate your help and I'll try your methods once I get this thing working.

It's not the writing process which has me so frustrated, you know? It's the actual BIAB process. Going to give it one more try and then if I still can't get it to work properly I'll ask for help in the live chat. It might be that it didn't install correctly or something. Honestly don't know.

Hi Cathie,

frustrations, anger and lack of progress go hand in hand with making music *eeek*

Sometimes when I have the melody (tune) I go to another software in my DAW - the tool is Scaler 2, where you can enter the midi notes from the piano/synth, and it'll determine which key fits the best to your melody. This is sometimes very helpful.

When it comes to recording in parts - I suggest you go to your DAW (Ableton, Logic Pro X or likewise). In Logic I can create a take folder and record the same piece over and over again, and end up with maybe 15-20 vocal takes of the same part of the song. Afterwards I can comb (select) from each take and assemble the vocal from there. (I'm not sure which other DAW offer this feature). When recording vocals, I never play at the same time - I need to be 100% focused, when I sing. I have no stage or live experience....so that is why, I do not master singing and playing at the same time.

BIAB has so many capabilities, and my main frustration is, that it doesn't always fit to my way of thinking.

Hi! Thank you. Is your name Peter, by chance?

I'm still ready to throw it through a wall. I decided to start over with a different song, a bossa nova I recorded a couple years ago. After I watched the tutorials on youtube again (and took notes, I even took notes!), I brought the audio into BIAB. It took me seven separate tries to figure out that I had to set the key, the choruses and the tempo before I bring in an audio--not mentioned in the tutorials--and then figure out how to sync it up so it starts at Bar 1 because the command buttons are missing from the Audio Edit window. I finally figured out that there are three separate ways to get into the Audio Chord Wizard and only the third way has all the command buttons... so on the eighth version of this song I finally got it synced in the right key and at the right tempo, only to be completely unable to set the bar lines because that version of ACW won't let me see the whole thing and won't let me move any bar lines, just keeps adding new ones--AND it changed the key and tempo on me. **headdesk** Yep, another one thrown away.

I'll probably try again today now that I've had a day's break. I sang this one well and there's a bolero/bossa style which complements my keyboard's bossa style. If I can get the barlines to line up this time, I can fix all the chords the ACW got wrong and then start bringing in the RT and see what I get.

IF. It's really a big IF. Oy.

Hi Cathie,

Peter it is :-)

ACW is useful, if you can make it work. And I agree the tutorial is an area of improvement, including the manual btw. (I've used the old version mostly, because that's what my silly head can figure out and make it work)

I would aim straight at BIAB Support for help and guidance - perhaps we might end up with an improved tutorial.

All the best of luck


Greeting Peter

Cathie, you said that half of your work is done in a notation program and that you might need a few different tracks for your vocal. The easiest way for vocal is in RealBand.

Since you are using ACW I will assume your notation is exporting audio, so try this:

Export you notation's audi file. Open Realband and in the track window drag and drop your notation's audio file. Be sure to start the drop on measure 1 and set RB's tempo to match your notation's tempo. Open the chord window and click on reinterpret chords. This will give you the chords extracted from your notation's audio file. While in the chord window select a style then generate all BiaB tracks. Presto your ready to sing!

You may have to select different styles and regenerate a number of times to get the results you need but you would have to do the same in BiaB. Also if you started in BiaB you would have to transfer your tracks to RB anyway so you could record your vocal tracks.

Note that I do not use RB but I did the above and everything worked just fine for me.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

PS - On a side note I do as little as I can in BiaB prior to moving the tracks to Studio One Pro 5.5, my DAW. YMMV

Cathie.
further ideas that might lessen the frustration level.

i dont know about you ; but when i get a song idea i want to get it down FAST in rough form in 15 to 30 minutes. so heres an idea.

1. as i mentioned realband(RB) has a usefull feature in the menus called fill trak with drum pattern for most music genres.
find one you like. (also set KEY AND TEMPO in RB).
then fill a trak with it. (you can also make your own guide drum patterns.)
2. now , if your piano has sounds built in. on a new trak record yourself playing the piano by takeing the audio out of your piano into line in on your audio interface.
(what usb audio interface are you useing ?)and record your piano playing on a new audio trak in rb.
now repeat with variations on a new audio trak for variety.
if you make a piano mistake no worries. just play thru it, and do an overdub later on.
3. now record a couple of traks of vocals on 2 different traks, and add some pg echo chorus on the traks subtly.
4. so NOW you have 5 traks. one drum guide trak.
2 piano guide traks and 2 voc guide traks.
use RB mixer to mix to your liking. and THUS you have the foundation of your song idea QUICKLY.

SEE WHAT I MEAN. ?? doable in half an hour in total probably.
I USE THIS METHOD TO ALSO TEST OUT HOW WELL MY LYRICS ARE WORKING IN THE SONG. AS WELL AS "AM I USEING THE RIGHT KEY FOR MY VOCALS".
in summary no entering notation or other steps needed.
(but NOTE RB has loads of notation features. just read the manual and watch vids etc.)
cathie , the above fast song method is no different than what a lot of big recording studios used to do ages ago before all this technology we have today.
often the big studios would set up guide traks with the songwriter/arranger and THEN bring in the heavy duty pro session musicians to record against the guide traks and build the song up from there.

5. after doing above and being happy with arrangement AND LYRICS.
now initiate auto accompany features in RB etc etc.
and away you go generating RT's and // or midi on different RB traks.
ps MAKE SURE YOU SAVE TO *.seq often for backup.

best
i-like-a-fast-rock-song-with-great-lead-breaks-oldmuso lol.

Y'all are SO cool, so generous with your time and help. Thank you, Peter, thank you, oldmuso.

I might very well need to be in RB, but my audio is already recorded.

So, in BIAB... After watching yet more tutorials and taking yet more notes, I finally figured out how to bring in an audio file and sync it up, how to get the barlines properly set--my tempo was 90.1, what the heck? Had to equalize that--how to set a tempo, how to get the chords and then correct them, how to bring in various RT at different bars, how to use chord settings... I got all that figured out, I figured out how to set the volume sliders on the mixers to get a sound I liked... and I rendered it to MP3. **facepalm** It's NINE megs!! For an MP3!! And the static!! There was no static on my audio file, there's no static in BIAB. Where the heck did all that static come from?!!! How the heck do I get rid of it?!!

Is this maybe the point where I absolutely have to move to RB? Can I drop my whole SGU file in there and then save it as an MP3 without the static? **facepalm** It's been DAYS of work on a song which was already recorded. I dread trying to do this work on a song where I have to actually add a new recording.

And honestly, guys, after all the help everyone has given me, I'm really disappointed to not be able to have anything I can point to and say, "Look what you helped me do!" I know it's only a freshman effort and I'm no pro, but I was proud of it anyway. **sigh**

This has developed into one of the best threads, yet; worth copying and pasting into a doc for personal use and reference. One thing I find interesting is the variety of reponses to the technology. We are lucky in that BIAB is such a top quality product.
I'll add something. A blank score (Crescendo) and a backing track (Box) and we're ready to score in lyrics and melody. A melody that fits the progression is easier said than done. Melody is joined at the hip with lyrics. It helps to rough in the landing notes in measures and lines. Landing notes work with changes. Humming and playing an abbreviated bass line gets you going. Just thoughts, fwtaw.

Hi Ed, it's nice to meet you! I have to say that both of my threads are filled with awesome advice from so many people. Really truly impressed by this community, by everyone's friendly generosity. I really have learned so much from everyone!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I think the thing which trips me up--besides the steep learning curve, I mean--is that my songs are already written. I thought I could bring in the MIDIs from my notation program and add RT to them. So far I haven't mastered that skill at all, so I tried bringing in an audio of a song I recorded a couple years ago. It was a PROCESS, to be sure, and I threw away a lot of faulty attempts, but I finally got it right. Only now I guess I have to learn how to turn an SGU into an MP3.

Every once in a while I have to completely walk away from the computer and go back to my keyboard to reassure myself that I'm not totally incompetent. **wry look** My guess is that someday I'll look back on these months and say, "oh, yeah, it was a little tough, but I got it eventually," and completely minimize what I'm going through right now, lol... OY. But I have to learn this. If I want my songs to go anywhere at all, even if it's just Soundcloud, I've got to learn this.

Cathie.

in order for people to help you further it might be prudent
at this point if you listed what equipment you have.
so people can best advise how to use it.
otherwise the rest of us are guessing.
so please post a list of equipment you are useing.
details on your computer would also be helpfull.

also do you have a decent sound interface ?
what is it ?
i ask this because you mentioned a noise you are getting.

yes rests are important.

best
oldmuso
ps yes you can bring into realband songs done in biab.

Hi oldmuso, thanks! Basically I have the computer and BIAB. My guess is I have no sound interface at all. You mean something external, like an AudioBox or something? Nothing. I didn't know I needed one when I bought BIAB--thought it had everything I needed.

I bought the computer specifically for BIAB. HP 64 bit Laptop, Windows 10, Core i5, 240 Ghz, 8 GB ram, 256 GB hard drive, the internal sound card that came with it, internal speakers (RealTek Audio). I have it plugged into inexpensive logi speakers.

I do have a pair of Sennheiser mixing headphones but I don't use them often because they don't sound any different than the speakers (so what good are they?) and they consistently make the ringing in my ears worse.

BIAB 2021 Build 833 and RB on a hard drive (not on my computer; I plug it in when I'm using it, put it away when I'm not). I use the 64 bit option on BIAB and RB. I bought the hard drive because I know my internet connection is too slow to successfully download any kind of DAW. Heck, at this point it doesn't even like youtubes. I'd never be able to download anything big.

I had Audacity on my last computer and it's been pretty good at reducing noise. Kinda shocked that BIAB didn't give me that option but maybe it's in RB? Until I started reading these forums I didn't understand that Audacity is a DAW. Makes sense to me that the things I used to use it for I would now need to do in RB.

Cathie.
i thought i saw in one of your posts that you have a piano.
am i mistaken ? please confirm. also do you have a microphone ?
do you anticipate doing high quality vocs ?
please detail your objectives/needs. please also detail the model of your computer so i can look up the specs.
for future reference i never buy new (too much bloat on new pc's.) i only buy refurbished pc's with ssd's.

heres some tips starting out on the crazy music journey lol.
1. allot some time each week learning what other people are doing with their project studios. also spend time watching bb and realband vids on you tube.
2. this pg site and others like gearspace.com where thousands of studios large and small hang out are a good learning resource. and for getting gear reviews and recording tips. but be aware also gear sellers hang out on various sites. just cos someone says "buy this 1k mic and youll be makeing hit records in no time " it might be someone with a bias.
as my grandmother used to say "be carefull and make sure your money is the last thing you part with".
note pg users are a great bunch of people. so if in doubt ask us all our opinion on gear.
3. dont spend lots of money initially cos your needs will change over time as you get more familiar with things.
4. spend some time on you tube watching vids on "setting up a low cost high quality home recording project studio".
5. BEST BET if your interested in a piece of gear is to RENT IT from a reputable local music store.
eg i do this with audio interfaces a lot.
do you have a decent local music store like i do that lets you rent gear for a week or so ?

when you post back i'll be happy to suggest a low cost interface and a low cost mic that wont break the bank (and other pg users can critique me if they wish lol.)
depending on your needs.

best
oldmuso will try and help as my time allows cos i'm
also doing my own songs.
ps ive set up more than 1 studio in my life.

< I had Audacity on my last computer and it's been pretty good at reducing noise. Kinda shocked that BIAB didn't give me that option but maybe it's in RB? Until I started reading these forums I didn't understand that Audacity is a DAW. Makes sense to me that the things I used to use it for I would now need to do in RB. >

Here's a tip that can save you time and will also provide audio editing features not available in Audacity, RealBand or any other DAW.

T I P:
BIAB has a very robust and competent built in Audio Editor to the Audio Channel and the 16 Utility Tracks.

It has all of the common and necessary audio editing features found in other audio editors and DAW's but it has the unique feature of having access to all of BIAB's other built in features that not even RealBand has. And, RealBand only comes close to providing BIAB exclusive features.

You can edit files and hear the editing results in real time without need to do any importing or exporting of files. There's no concern of syncing and re-syncing files edited in an external DAW or editor. The editing tools are named similarly and react similarly to the Audacity audio commands you are familiar with.

Here's a screen shot taken from the BIAB Help Menu of the Editing Tools list:

Hi oldmuso. I have a Yamaha DGX 660 keyboard. For recording, I've been using an older digital recorder, Zoom H1. I had bought a Cobalt Co9 dynamic cardioid mic when I bought Gizmo (the keyboard), but it's never worked with the keyboard and so it sits in the box along with the mixing headphones. I have absolutely no idea how to use it with my computer.

The computer says it's "HP Laptop17by4xxx" and I haven't found any other model name no matter how I've searched. It's running Windows 10 Home. I have two fastUSB ports, one HDMI port, a port I don't recognize (the little icon looks like a zipper), and one audio jack. There's a webcam with a mic but I haven't tried it yet. It also had a card reader slot and a DVD drive.

Quality on my vocals... well, I myself am the weak link there **rueful smile** but I would like to at least be able to get an accurate recording.

Objectives... My hands are giving out. I need to be able to create the accompaniments for my vocals without having to play my keyboard. What I wanted to be able to do is put my already written songs into BIAB, including the notation, add in the vocals, and then export the final song as an MP3 so I can share it with friends and post it on Soundcloud. I anticipated being able to write the instrumental parts like I would in a notation program, especially since I have some school band and orchestra pieces. I anticipated MIDI patches that sounded professional rather than tinny (since it turns out MIDI is the only thing I can write for in BIAB). I don't have any idea why my MIDI patches are so bad, since the RT sound so good. **shrugs**

I opened my SGU in RB. It plays static free, just like it does in BIAB. And I read a goodly chunk of the Users Guide today but it never says anything more than "It's possible to save the file as WAV or MPwhatever" so I still don't know what I'm doing... but I do know that most of the users guides for RB and BIAB alike read like a foreign language to me, which is why I started watching youtube tutorials instead.

I know that I need to learn music production skills in order to fully realize what I hear in my head (unless, you know, I could win the lottery and hire a 40 piece dance band... not so likely, eh?). I just didn't know it would feel so impossible to learn these skills, and I honestly didn't know I would need anything more than a new computer, BIAB, and RB.

Hi Charlie! I had no idea.

Will it give me the ability to reduce or eliminate noise, so I can render an MP3 without static?

My brain is currently fried from reading the users guide--hasn't been this fried since college algebra!--so I'm going to have to experiment with the audio editor tomorrow. I really appreciate your directing me to it. Never really learned how to use Audacity properly. I mostly just used it to deal with volume and noise. Sooner or later I have to learn to do all of the common editing tasks. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction for that.

< Will it give me the ability to reduce or eliminate noise, so I can render an MP3 without static? >

Yes.

However, if rendering a song to MP3 is creating static during the rendering, that is an issue that is better fixed at the source. Rendering should not be creating static.
But if it is and you are currently repairing the rendered MP3 audio using Audacity, then likely the tools you're using in Audacity are also available in BIAB.

Common editing tools like cut/paste, volume automation, fade in and fade out are accessed from the Audio Editor and audio shaping and Fx tools like compression, delay, flangers, noise gates, de-esser are accessed from the top tool menu Audio drop down menu and they are currently only accessible on the Audio Channel but not the Utility Tracks. This isn't a problem because you just place any audio file onto the Audio Channel for that editing and then move it onto a Utility Track. The task will still be faster than exporting to a DAW and re-importing it back into BIAB for further processing. You will also be able to instantly audition your edits and make small corrections to timing and audio placement right in BIAB eliminating estimating and guesswork.

There are 19 editing tools located in the Audio Editor plus you can generate or regenerate an audio track from within the Audio Editor. There's another 19 Direct-X plug ins in the Audio Tool Bar which gives you nearly 40 Audio Tools in BIAB.

Cathie.
ok thanks for the info.
the very first step that has to be taken is to
"PROPERLY CONFIGURE YOUR RECORDING STUDIO".
ie a methodical step by step procedure to set it up properly.
lets first address your computer. i need some info.
1. assuming pc is shutdown cold. how long does it take from the moment you press the pc power button to seeing win desktop ?
under 10 secs ? or a loooong time ? in addition please open up realband and in the menus you will see action test audio performance.
how many traks does the test report ? over 200 traks ?
this will help me assess your pc capabilities somewhat.
btw i have an i5 much older than yours with ssd. its very very fast. but its been optimised by me. it boots into win in only a few secs.
2. dont worry bout the piano. you can still do loads of songs.
i cant do notation or play the piano but that hasnt stopped me doing 300 original songs in my life in studios big and small. if i remember a ton of rockers with big hits couldnt do notation/piano either.

as a next step please read up on you tube the following if not already done so.

.optimising a pc for recording studio work.
.what is latency ?
.how to install a low latency asio usb audio interface.
(look on you tube for vids by focusrite, maudio, behringer
and other manufacturers as a start.)
.best cheap condenser microphone female singer. please note your mic is a dynamic not a condenser. the problem with dynamics is they need lots of gain compared to condensers. and some interfaces dont have lots of gain. thus problems can occur.
but lets see first what the cobalt can do.

it looks to me like you will need a cheap low latency usb audio interface. some work great and others dont depending on pc. which is why i test them by first renting.
DO YOU HAVE A RECORDING STORE NEAR YOU THAT RENTS RECORDING GEAR TO TEST LIKE I DO ? this can be problematic.
best
oldmuso

Hi Cathie,

Yes you will need an external audio interface. Here is a list of some inexpensive ones that are top rated:

https://thefuturemuse.com/inexpensive-audio-interfaces/#4

A number of forum members use Focusrite audio interfaces.

As far as MIDI sounds the included free Coyote is at the bottom of a list of good MIDI sounds. Soundfonts are better and there are some free to inexpensive soundfont players and sounds available. The BiaB included SFZ player is also better. The more you spend the better your MIDI sounds. Kontakt and SampleTank are a couple of expensive but excellent MIDI sound sources but both have free players with limited amount of sounds available.

BUT if I am reading you correctly you may not want to try improving MIDI sounds until you get BiaB, RealBand, or any other DAW or hardware (audio interface, monitors, mic, etc) down completely. All except the GM soundfont MIDI sounds I have mentioned will require you to assign sounds to each MIDI track and that can be a real challenge until you know your system like the back of your hand.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Been away from the internet for a few days....

So,

Cathy. It depends if you want to simply dabble in this as a pastime or if you are trying to produce halfway decent recordings, as to whether you need an external interface or not.

Most internal realtek sound chips are not good for this thing we do. They are designed to play waves and mp3 files for listening only. We are working with midi and synths and multiple audio tracks and with full duplex where sound is going in both directions..... in and out at the same time.

YES, you need an interface to do that. I like and use Focusrite. MAudio, presonus, and a few others are good. Do Not Go Cheap. Look for something that supports ASIO.

Normally you get the static, clicks, pops and audio drop-outs on the playback and recording side of things. Rendered waves tend to render well because it's not trying to keep everything synced in real time. That you have (as I understand it) static in the rendered mp3 is a puzzlement to me. But if so, I would think it was from the realtek chip set.


You should also learn how to use a fully capable DAW to get the best from your music. It's a long process of learning. And.... you shouldn't beat yourself up over things you don't know. I like to say that there are things you don't know until you know them. Heck, you don't even know they exist until you know them and then that almost always opens the door to more things that you didn't know. It's an ongoing process of learning. Everyone starts somewhere.

Oh my gosh!! You guys!!! Wow!! Thank you! I appreciate everything you've said. Edited the quotes to keep this from getting too long, and I'll answer oldmuso separately.


That was certainly my thought, that it shouldn't create static. Thank you for explaining where to find things in Audio Editor. I'll be checking that out.


That's why I switched to audio for now... I can tell that I just don't understand what I'm doing with MIDI yet. I don't have professionally made MIDIs of full songs, just the notation file for one instrument exported as a MIDI... awful sound when done that way. And I'm still a newbie with the whole BIAB process so I really do need to practice more. Thank you for the link to the audio interfaces!


So I'm going to assume the RealTek soundcard is my problem. We have access to an IT guy who rescued my hard drive from a broken computer. Pretty sure he can replace the sound card. Now I also regret not being a packrat; should have kept the AudioBox. Oh well.

I'll need a different sound card and an audio interface, and that means figuring out how to save up some money. In the meantime, I'll keep exploring BIAB and RB. Seems to me that this process is just going to take quite a while, and my expectations for being able to use BIAB right out of the box were unrealistic. I'll be very fortunate if I can do what I want by the end of the year... but at least I can get good at using RT in the meantime.

10 seconds--fast enough to surprise me, after using old computers for so long.

"Estimated Number of 44.1k Audio tracks for playback: 189 (Note: Estimated performance is for Mono tracks)"


I go back to Gizmo (the keyboard) just to remind myself that I honestly am a competent musician. **rueful smile** It's still how I prefer to write new songs.


Okay. I can do that.

I bought the dynamic mic because Gizmo's manual said only a dynamic would work with the keyboard. The idea was to plug the mic into Gizmo and record the song directly onto the keyboard--but the mic never worked, and I could never get Audiobox to work (multiple download errors due to slow internet) so I couldn't check the mic out that way, either. If I'm understanding what everyone is telling me, I'll be plugging it into the new audio interface, whichever one I get, and recording my vocals into BIAB or RB? So I need to check the gain ony potential interface. Okay.


Have not got a clue. There's a couple music stores about a mile up the street but I have no idea if they rent gear--they're pretty specialized, one sells orchestra instruments and guitars and no gear, the other sells drums, so they might have gear... but I stay out of that one! Carpal tunnel wrists do not need to be itching for congas!! **big eyes** But I think before I get to the point of needing to rent anything, I should do some learning. Google search on "low latency usb audio interface" brought me almost 5 million results and the focusrite is at the top. I know it's pretty popular here so I'll read about it along with the others.

Thank you for all your help. After I've done some reading, can I run things by you before I have the IT friend change anything on my computer? If not, that's okay. I still appreciate all your help!!

...........honestly, I'm not sure any of you guys understand how much help you've been to me, or just how grateful I am to all of you. Your help is saving me from thinking I made a terrible mistake. Thank you, all of you.

Cathie.
my reply.
1. feel free to ask any gear questions includeing IT questions. there are lots of pg users like myself well versed in both IT computer engineering as well as setting up a recording studio.
2. thank you for the info on your pc. so far i see no reason why you cant use this pc. but this might change later on depending on your needs evolving and how well it performs on in depth song projects.
another decision you need to make is "should the pc see the net." my recording pc doesnt. i use a seperate cheap pc for surfing.
(just read up on this topic cos i dont have the space to explain further.)
for futher reading (sorry !) you might research what many big studios use. they use custom pc's finely tuned that are bought "turnkey" with the sound devices already installed.
but they are 2k plus , and highly optimised for large track and plug in counts. they are basically powerhouses. (just read up on gearspace.com and the net; companies like scan audio, silent pc, adk pro audio, and purrfect audio.
you dont need one at this point. i only mention them as a lot can be learned from their sites and pc configs. they can be a good source of info on gear also.
3. i think right now you have a strategic decision to make.
either you carry on(with us pg users assistance) setting up your recording studio in a proper functional fashion OR another option is to use a local studio in your area ; the latter would probably allow you to get your songs down faster BUT can be costly.
assuming the former. ...
4. phone up your local music stores (i believe you have a guitar centre in you area according to the net for example ?) and enquire if they rent low latency asio usb audio interfaces with 48v phantom for a month.
even better would be with a condenser microphone. (need 48v.)
this should cost very little (maybe 40 dollars ?) and this way you can test out compatibility with your pc plus you will learn how to install
a low latency usb audio interface. the "wrinkle" however is the covid situation currently. maybe you dont want to go out. i had my new interface shipped to me by courier from the recording store with the understanding i could return it in 30 days for a full refund. in summary be very
carefull.

best
oldmuso

Cathie.
(Please read my post before this one first.)
you might like to show your IT guy the following articles re optimising a pc for recording studio work.
these are from professionals. (also on gearspace.com are lots of threads on this subject or just use google.)
let me add also my own tips such as useing a processor that has a minimum rateing on cpubenchmark.net of 5000 BUT preferably a rateing of 10000 (eg i5 8400). also use pc's with solid state drives for recording.
(also if useing orchestral libs // big sample libs which you might want to get into later on cathie ssd's as well as oodles of ram in addition to a fast processor. google for more info.)
here are some optimisation links for your IT guy.
https://audient.com/tutorial/optimise-your-windows-pc-for-audio/
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207355205-Optimising-your-PC-for-Audio-on-Windows-10
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=654005
see you tube for even more optimising tips. HTH//ymmv.
best
oldmuso
ps in the realband forum is a list of sound devices that
pg users find work well with pg products.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=635707&page=1

Hello! Sorry it took me so long to get back here--life got in my way. **rueful smile** Thank you, btw, for starting the thread on orchestra libraries. Some amazing info there!

My questions are pretty basic.

1.) Will an audio interface function like an external sound card? In my reading I saw one actually referred to as a sound card; if I buy an interface can I skip buying a second sound card? Or am I misunderstanding?

2.) Does the ASIO driver come with the interface, or are interfaces just ASIO-ready and I have to buy ASIO by itself? All I know about it is that my computer currently doesn't have it.

3.) Does the amount of RAM in my computer make much of a difference in the functionality of BIAB/RB or an audio interface? The computer guy has offered to remove the RAM from the broken computer and install it in this one, which would bump me from 8GB to 16. I'm inclined to do this on the general principle that more RAM is always better, but will there be other things which would have more of an impact on music? Would I, for instance, be better served to get the audio interface first and do the RAM later?

I'm slowly making my way through all the info you've recommended I read and watch. Thanks again so much for your help!

1. It's easy to misunderstand the term "sound card" as functionality has changed over time.

Older Windows computers had no audio. The thought was they were considered "business" machines and a "business" machine didn't need audio. To add audio to a Windows computer you installed a "sound card". The "sound card" included connections for line-in, line-out, microphone and headphone. A sound card could also have a "gameport" with additional connections for MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and a joystick controller. Sound cards with a game port generally also had MIDI instrument sounds or patches.

As audio gained popularity Windows computers manufacturers started including or embedding audio functions into the computer motherboard. Motherboard audio systems generally have at least microphone and headphone connections. MIDI IN and MIDI OUT connections and MIDI patches were integrated into the operating system. The term, sound card, morphed into an alternative name for an audio interface.

My guess is you've seen or read people using the terms audio interface and sound card interchangeably.

2. Audio interface manufactures should develop and distribute ASIO drivers. ASIO drivers are normally hardware specific.

ASIO4ALL is a generic wrapper that cloaks another type of Windows driver, WDM, in an ASIO shell. In other words it's a trick. Sometimes the trick works pretty good but many times it don't.

Another driver term you'll come across is a manufacturer will state their product is "Windows Compliant" so a driver is not needed. That means the manufacturer is depending on the drivers Microsoft builds into Windows 10 to work with their product. Here again, sometimes that works but many times it don't. Also, all it takes is for Microsoft to change the built-in driver during an update and everything will go out of whack.

3. Band-in-a-Box and RealBand are said to depend more on CPU speed than RAM. An external audio interface doesn't use any RAM. Soft synths (Kontakt SampleTank, Halion, etc.), VSTs and VSTi and effects can require a lot of RAM.

Cathie.
all that jim said is spot on.
1.a low latency usb audio interface can be called various different names. the KEY is that word LATENCY. meaning roughly how long it takes a system to react after a user gives a command.
the reason why latency is important is lets take those orch libs your interested in.
when you press a key on a midi kbd you want to hear those brass sections or whatever in all their glory. and not hear them delayed. for example my own pc is ok with a latency of around 4 milliseconds.
i could get it lower but dont bother. the PROBLEM with some common pc's cathie is they dont have very powerfull processors so they get stressed when a user needs very low latency performance.
also a common retail pc is not optimised for studio work.
we often have to optimise it ourselves.
which is why i mentioned earlier why some big studios use high power pc's. problem is they start at 2k plus. such pc's can handle very high trak and plug in counts. and orch libs.
talking of orch libs. read on.
2. one PROBLEM with orch lib useage is they often need not only lots of ram but also powerfull expensive processors. some of these processors alone start at over 1k without any other components in a pc. way outside my puny budget.
some big studios use huge amounts of ram eg 64 gb etc etc and even computer farms. (think major film projects).
some use huge orch libs etc etc.
expensive processors speed up render times of audio and video.
in summary it can get very very expensive quickly.
in conclusion you might stress your pc even with 16 gb of ram. useing big libs needing oodles of ram.
so what do us poorer musicians DO ?
the SOLUTION cathie if one has a small budget and cant afford i9 or xeon or amd level threadripper processors is one chooses ones plug ins and orch libs carefully. and ensure our lower level pc's can handle the load and dont get stressed and exhibit hiccups.
in summary always look at the resource requirements of a particular orch lib or plug in before purchase/useage and run tests.
i ONLY USE plug ins that are low resource useage. and will do the same when i choose my orch libs.
because frankly i cant afford 4 or 5 k on a high power computer.
my wife and i like to eat lol !
3. now back to audio interface choice.
as i said cathie i would rent first to ensure the interface (plus condenser mic) works with your pc.
heres another MAJOR POINT. follow carefully installation
instructions. IN ADDITION after installing the drivers.
typically what i do is shut down the pc and then attach the condenser mic to the xlr input of the interface AND ensure i engage 48volt phantom power switch on the interface (on some interfaces you do this via on screen menu). THEN I BOOT UP COMPUTER. make sure mic level is at minimum before bootinng up. (some new interfaces have on
screen menu to set mic level).
but YMMV. be guided by the instructions of the interface and/or your music store. in non covid times i would suggest you get the music store your renting from to install and test the interface with condenser mic with your pc.

hth/ymmv.
oldmuso
ps re midi. there are loads of vids on you tube.
also loads of midi books. some local libraries carry books on digital audio/midi. but be safe cos of covid.
and good luck.

Cathie, you have received some very important information thus far. I would like to add this to that. Carefully determine how many and what types on inputs you will need on an audio interface. I know you sing and that you play keyboards and if that is all you will be using then pick an audio interface that has both as well as ASIO native drivers.

As far as MIDI goes most all new MIDI keyboards and external sound sources use USB ports and not the old 5-pin ports. If you have or will get a unit with 5-pin ports then invest in a 5-pin to USB adapter. This eliminates the need of getting an audio interface that includes MIDI ports.

One last note, as previously indicated there are some very expensive and CPU and RAM intensive programs available. Most of us hobbyist don't invest in them. We use the much less expensive and not CPU or RAM intensive ones. They don't as good as the expensive ones but at least we can afford them. YMMV

Hi Jim! Thank you so very much, especially for the warning in point 2. I'll avoid products that use those terms. From what I understand, then, budget-wise for me the audio interface needs to come before the RAM expansion. Good to know.


Hi oldmuso! Well now, since I like being able to eat also, libraries are currently not on my radar, just on my wishlist. I read a couple threads about Cakewalk and honestly, adding another DAW right now just seemed like another rabbit hole to fall down since I just don't know what I'm doing yet. My fingers are crossed this will be like learning to ride a bicycle and that the training wheels will come off and I'll suddenly just catch my balance... but sheesh, starting from scratch like I am is pretty tough. About point number 3, Kansas is open and I'm fully vaccinated. I hadn't thought about taking the computer with me to the Guitar Center and having them install the interface and microphone, but that's a pretty good idea--and I can wear a mask for added safety (still wear one when I go out anyway; cancer patients just don't take chances, yanno?). Now to figure out the budget and figure out when I can do that.


Thank you, Mario. I didn't know they even still make 5-pin ports! I'll watch out for that. Don't think I really need more than 2 inputs on the interface--but if I find something on sale with more than 2, I might grab it anyway.

And can I just say, your signature lines are cracking me up! Thanks for making me laugh.

Howdy Cathie....

I'd highly recommend keeping the above in mind.
In this context, many starting out will say "I don't need more than 2 inputs".
But, I think it's prudent in the long run to exceed that 2 input perception if it's within one's budget.

I have kept up with your research quest.
And yes....getting to recording and setting up one's first recording studio, getting the DAW of choice (I've used C'walk since 1994 and I'm on X3) can't seem daunting.
It's a bottomless abyss of learning but has many rewards for those that stick with it.

Good luck on your quest.

I'd like to make one last point. In my mind it's more important to learn how to use the tools you have than acquire more tools. You can have access to the most expensive and best sounding recording equipment available but non of that counts for much until you learn to use it.

Record with what you have! Have fun! Make mistakes! You haven't experienced recording until you recorded the perfect track ... and then accidentally erased it! I've heard recordings on the internet that were recorded with a media player (MP3 player) that sound better than anything I'll ever record. But these people have spent hours learning the limitations of their equipment and how to use the equipment to their best advantage.

Record and share the joy with us!

Hi chulaivet, thank you! I appreciate your encouragement. Had to laugh at your comment about the bottomless abyss! It does feel that way some days.

Now, Jim, I can't begin to tell you what this means to me. All this ongoing frustration has taken the joy of music out of my life. I was listening to a song I recorded in 2015, just me and Gizmo the keyboard in the dining room, and it's not perfect by any means and certainly not professional, but nothing to be embarrassed about either--and hey, it's done, it exists, and I can listen to it! And when I finished recording it, I was on fire to do more... but these days when I finally give up on a song I'm ready to tear my hair out and walk away from music forever. Definitely need to change that energy and get back the flow and love! Having all these songs waiting, waiting, waiting for me to be able to get them to work just feels stagnant to me. I want to get them in, get them done, and go on to the next one--not that I'm not willing to put in the time to make them sound good; I truly am. But I never seem to get that far.

You definitely have my deep sympathies on that erased track!!! I had to do all my songs in one track before because I didn't know how to splice takes together, so the thing which got me was finally doing a perfect take and the cat meowed loudly in the last bar. **headdesk** I learned pretty fast to record at night with the air conditioner off and all the critters locked into a bedroom!!

Thanks again for your encouragement. I'll keep going.

You're welcome.

Regarding the 'abyss' ....I'm 74, been doing this for 40 years and I still haven't landed on the bottom. (isn't that a reassuring thought for you )
The more I learn the less I seem to know....the irony.

Have a good one....

(EDIT: and Jim is correct. Learn to get the best out of the tools you have before. Great recordings have been done on MOR gear. )

LOL... um... ever so reassuring? Ah well. A lifetime of learning is a good challenge to accept.

I **haven't** been doing this for most of my life--dropped out of college--you might remember when they started firing music teachers wholesale and then shutting down the grade schools because "the baby boom was over"? There went MY career up in smoke. Spent the next 37 years silent inside, and the music only came back 7 years ago. It's been a challenge every step of the way, not least because my mental image of myself as a musician was a 19 year old multi-instrumentalist with speedy fingers and an impeccable sense of rhythm. OY that did not carry over! Beyond rusty!! OY! But I kept at it.

After a couple years I went back to school (theory made my soul sing) and probably would have graduated and gone on for my master's but I got cancer and had to drop out again. I had expected BIAB would let me pick up where I left off but sheesh, was I wrong. Still, I think I will eventually get it. Last night I tried the song I started this thread about with a different style (Drama Pop with Thump, lol) and was just utterly blown away by how right it was and how good it sounded. Now we're back to the weak link: I still have to sing it. A person should not have to deal with stage fright in her own dining room, but yanno... microphone. **eyeroll**

But I'll get there. I have tons of help from everyone here. It's going to work, maybe not on my timetable, but eventually, it's going to work.

Yes, you will get it to work. If I can do it anyone can!

It sounds like you have BiaB down when it come be adding chords and picking a style. That's great! Just remember baby steps. Don't try to accomplish everything a once as that is a road to total failure.

Don't feel to embarrassed as I also have in my room stage fright when it comes to a mic!

Thank you, Mario!

I'm working on bar and chord settings now. Bar settings seem pretty straightforward, but oy, chord settings... they don't work and for the life of me I can't figure out why. It seems like a no-brainer to set shots or held chords, but so far they have zero effect.... oh, wait a minute, I'm wondering now if that's because I froze the tracks once I got a good sound? Maybe chord settings doesn't work on frozen tracks?

I made myself sing today, warmed up and everything... it was awful, really truly awful. Sheesh. My fingers are crossed it's because I put the recorder in a different place--the keyboard is usually between the recorder and me--evidently having it closer made a bigger impact than I expected, and in the opposite direction than I expected! But the good thing is that I managed to listen through the headphones while I was recording, so I had something to sing with.

And THEN (good grief, this DAY! This crazy day!) Audacity wouldn't accept the files because I brought them in the way I always do, pulled the card out of the recorder and used the card reader. So I put them on the desktop, discovered how harsh my voice sounded, and decided to check out the rest of the files on the recorder before I gave up for the day.... only to be most emphatically told multiple times that the rest of my files couldn't be moved because my desktop doesn't exist!!! This DAY... OY.

Yes, if a track is frozen then you can't add or delete anything. A frozen track is set in concrete, well the kind of concrete that when unfrozen turns into mud again

Just hang in there! Some days are diamonds and some days are stone, hey that may make a great song

I have had a lot of stoned days, er days of stoned, oh hell some really bad days!

Ha! You're making me laugh, Mario! Okay, I'll unfreeze the tracks, make my changes, and refreeze them--crossin' my fingers that's the right way to do it. And today when I sing, I'll set the recorder like I do when I'm playing Gizmo. Got my fingers crossed that'll be enough to give me back my voice, sheesh... really hate to think it's actually changed. Really hope that mic placement is everything!!

Although I confess, "Rock... it's not pretty or sweet" DID cross my mind... I haven't forgotten Herb telling me it's in the attitude. I just didn't expect my attitude to be a washed-up hard-bitten country waitress with throat damage from a lifetime of smoking. **big eyes** (Never smoked a day in my life, lol!)

I really like that image, "Diamonds and Stone." It could go a lot of ways. Got lyrics? This is what I pulled from your post.

"Some days are diamond, some days are stone
Some days I'm down in the mud
Some days are concrete, I'm frozen alone
Ain't nothing flowing, no song in my blood"

I can hear a chorus coming...

Actually I got that from a John Denver song:

http://www.songlyrics.com/john-denver/some-days-are-diamonds-lyrics/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUt2zDrddIQ

**laughing** Well, then. **harrumph** Dagnabble it.

Agreed....that's what I was emphasizing.

I was a music/geology major and glad to have some theory under my belt.
That was a while back.

Yep....lots of knowledgeable people here.
I've had BIAB since 2012 and I've only scratched it's surface compared to others here.

Have a great day....

Gosh Cathie, All that music theory locked inside for all that time. I'm glad you now have the opportunity to seek your passion.

I lucked up. I received the Band-in-a-Box ProPAK as a gift. Receiving the smallest content package forced me to concentrate on learning how to use the capabilities of Band-in-a-Box and RealBand. It took me two years to save up the money to advance to the UltraPAK; by then I had a better than average understanding of both programs.

Every now and then you'll come across a forum post by a user with an older version of the programs. Generally speaking follow the links in their signature and listen to songs they've posted and I think you'll agree the tools they have they've learned to use well.

One part of audio has drastically changed over the years; that is the transition from analog to digital. You also need to spend time learning how digital audio works; it differs significantly from audio.

+++ Home Recording for Dummies +++ does an EXCELLENT job of presenting the basic building blocks of digital audio and home recording. One reason I suggest this book for beginners is it has been constantly updated. Edition six was released November, 2020.

Oh yea,

When I think that my first AAW (analog audio workstation) was an Akai R-R with 'sound-on-sound' in 1968, things have come a long way. When I first recorded to an Ampex 300-4 with Sel Sync (1970?), I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Being a high school kid, I couldn't afford one of my own but my dad worked there so I had access.

My basement has become the place where analog goes to die with a quartet of 4-tracks, a couple 8-tracks and over a half dozen 2-tracks of various formats. Some get dragged out to convert analog to digital. Otherwise, if I never take a razor blade to a piece of tape again, it will be way too soon.

Digital is certainly different but it's skill like any other. I'll restate the recommendation I made earlier: Learn the one thing you need to know right now. Then learn the next, then the following… At some point, you'll realize that you've learned quite a bit.

I'll make another. Stop reading this thread. Look at the videos, play with the demos. Heck, read the pages in the book that Jim recommends that apply to what you need to know right now. Have some fun, make some music and you'll be surprised by what you learn.

Thank you! Already had carpal tunnel syndrome when the music came back, so I had to find a different focus than playing. I've had a lot of fun learning songwriting. I suspect once I figure out how BIAB "thinks"--so that it's not such a struggle for me to find even basic info--I'll have a lot of fun learning music production, too. Thank you for the book recommendation!

OH MY GOSH GUYS!!! I got a vocal track in!!!!

This song's real obviously a freshaman effort and I can tell I need to remix it and maybe even change some instruments out (or add more) but I DID IT!!!!! I started with chords and a style, brought in two MIDI tracks that I wrote myself, added a RT rhythm guitar, used the bar settings to mute and unmute, and then brought in a vocal recording!!! I did it I did it!!!!

Thank you so much for all your help!!!! Woooohoooo!!!!!

Congratulations. I'm impressed with how you stuck with it and worked your way through it all. Wonderful journey following along with you.

Fantastic! This is good news.

I am also impressed with how you stuck with it. I am also impressed that you asked for help along the way and didn't start complaining about how bad or difficult working with BiaB can be. I know from personal experience that most all of the difficulties I have had with BiaB were directly caused by the idiot that is typing this message

Way to stick to it! I hope you'll post a link to it in the User Showcase.

Thank you, guys!!! GOSH I aprreciate your support!!

I'm disappointed to tell you the vocals just aren't up to snuff. My rhythm's off just enough to make it sound out of sync. So this time I've made myself a new MuseScore with a piano and without the Ah Choir and the guitar part. (The Ah Choir was really tripping me up. Guess that just isn't a clean enough sound to sing to. 'Nuther lesson learned, eh?) I'll be able to stay in rhythm with a piano, and hopefully my pitch will be better as well----and once I've got the vocals recorded, I can rewrite that track for rhythm, bring it in as a MIDI to augment or replace the RT Piano in the style (which doesn't quite fit the mood of my song). And now I'm seriously considering using violins instead of background vocals because I like the sound better and the vocals are a little high for me. Hmmm... might even bump them up another octave!

Mario, I knew it had to be operator error because sometimes things worked right and sometimes they didn't. I just didn't understand that BIAB requires a certain order in the workflow--for instance, having to make shots and held chords before you freeze the tracks--and I didn't know to look for things being checked off by accident, like the MIDI drums being forced. My guess is that nearly all of what frustrated me so badly in the beginning was due to my not understanding the order BIAB requires.

Guys, the manual still reads like Greek to me so I'm just working my way through this OJT as best I can with all ya'lls help. **grin** I know I have a long way to go. Learning the techniques and how BIAB thinks is only the first step. Then I have to learn to mix and sheesh, I think that's gonna take some practice to train my ears to hear what fits and what doesn't. I know my song is too full right now; it should start fairly low key with a steady build to the coda but I'm already at full bore by the first chorus and it doesn't drop back as effectively as I want it to on the next verse. But then, I can fix that with a new piano part... and by dropping that rhythm guitar I was so thrilled with, shoot. Like the RT piano, it just doesn't quite fit. But that's okay, I can work around it.

Still so chuffed that I actually did it, start to finish. First draft! Now for some serious editing and revisions, and we'll see if I can come back all excited again with something you can listen to. **grin**

Cathie.
kudos for sticking at it.
think of biab and realband like this....

its like xmas. except better lol or an easter egg hunt.
because you KNOW at xmas the presents are limited.
whereas with biab and rb one keeps on finding more and more little presents if one continues to delve into all the features of both pieces of software.

i used to be nuts on scuba diving so when i started out with biab/rb , i felt it was a bit like scuba on a reef and suddenly finding some new wonderfull world.

best
oldmuso

We are all glad that we can help.

Also we all went through the same growing pains that you are experiencing. It takes time to tame BiaB!

The manual reads like Greek to many of us.

Mr. Muso, Mario, thank you both so much!! Today was one of those headdesk days, couldn't get the computer speakers to work for love nor money--turns out the batteries were low in the remote. Had a heck of a time getting the compartment to open, which seems to be today's theme--the back door won't open either. I think we might have to take the doorknob apart. **eyeroll**

To do a new song all I do is listen to a style and something always comes to mind just have to sought the lyrics out which is the hard part
Getting the lyrics right. But, as you say. BIAB is unbelievable what you can do with it. Burton Trent

Hi Burton, welcome to the forums! BIAB is absolutely amazing, I agree.