The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....?

Posted by: Cathie

The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/05/21 06:40 PM

Hey guys!! It's finally starting to work for me!!! Thank you! Woooohoooo!!!! Thank you for all your help!!!

The more I get something resembling a real song, the more technical questions I have, so I thought I would ask them in one thread and that way be able to find the answers again more easily as I work my way through things. Gratefully asking y'all for your opinions and advice again!

Occasionally someone posts about finding a specific style or song, and the Sea Shanty thread was a completely unexpected major help to me. Amazingly, I found the right style for my "rock song" when I typed in the name of one of the suggested styles! So thank you--I can't find the thread now now, was it VideoTrack or maybe MusicStudent who listed the styles? Anyway, thank you! "Rolling" in the style picker filter brought up "Dramatic Pop with Thump" and who knew that my rock song was actually drama pop?? Now my MIDI guitar part sounds right! ....although I am thinking that probably no real guitar player would ever turn the reverb all the way up and just leave it there for the whole song with no variation at all. But it got rid of that flat tinny sound from the MIDI!

So. Mario answered my biggest question today, "why won't the chord settings work?!" which believe me, had me hollering some less than nice words many times over the past few weeks. Seems that a frozen track will respond to bar settings but not chord settings. Made some major editing progress today, now that I know that!

I can see it would be really good to know where the shots and holds go before one finds the best generation and freezes it, and yes, I had to unfreeze and regenerate repeatedly today to get my song closer to finished. I'm thinking oldmuso answered that one for me in a different thread, suggested to someone that they use a simple piano track to get the song established before they went to the final style, so I'll try that on the next one.

I've decided to take Jim's advice pretty seriously and really learn BIAB before I buy anything new. It's hard for me to know what might be a bug and what's just operator error without knowing the program better.

And for pete's sake, 1.) where on earth did my Track View go? Am I remembering RB and thinking it's BIAB? Because there is no command or button I can find which shows me the tracks (waveforms?) anywhere.

I also need to know please, 2.) how does a person make a note longer in editable notation? I meant to change a quarter note to two eighth notes and missed, accidently clicked the 16th note line instead. It doesn't sound good enough to leave it but nothing I try makes it back into a quarter note. It's really heartening to know I can change my guitar part but less heartening if I can't fix my mistakes. I deleted the dotted eighth but I can't seem to edit the 16th to make it back into a quarter note (all thanks be for that reverb making the note sustain, lol).

3.) The =POPPLTS.STY says it has piano and drums, and the drum track is green, but there's nothing there--nothing at all! I click solo on the drums and don't even hear crickets chirping--nuthin. Is this a fluke, or the way it's supposed to be, or a bug? Am I supposed to find a RD track and insert it somehow? (BIAB 2021, Build 833, everything but the new PAK 11). I don't necessarily need drums but I do need to know if it's normal for tracks to be missing from a style!

4.) Since bar settings doesn't work on my Utility tracks, do I need to go to RB in order to mute the bridge on my MIDI bass part? I don't want to delete those bars because it's not a final decision--I might hate it!--but I can't figure out how else to deal with it. I've tried muting the MIDI altogether and turning the RT Bass back on and I think I like it for the bridge--like it more if I can figure out how to get pick up notes--but I don't want to do anything irreversible.

5.) How do I get a RT instrument to start playing on beat 3 or 4? Do I do that in chord settings? So far that's not working, even though I remembered to unfreeze the track and regenerate it.

6.) Shots--same chord for two bars, how do I get the instruments to come back in before the chord changes? I've tried just writing in the chord again in the second bar, but it doesn't work. (Again, I remembered to unfreeze and regenerate.)

7.) If I like the sound a lot and can't figure out what to mute, but I want a bigger build up at the end, should I consider adding instruments? I already have drums, a drum loop, a synth pad, a piano, a guitar and two basses. I still have to record vocals and two background vocals. How do you find instruments that match the style? In this case it's _DRMAPOP.STY

8.) Is there a way to "double" one of the tracks from the existing style? What do I do to make this happen? Where do I search?

Thank you thank you thank you for any answers you might be able to give me! I really appreciate that y'all haven't given up on me. Sooner or later there's going to be an actual song to listen to.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/06/21 12:04 AM

Ha! I already found a work-around for #4. I wrote that bass part--I can write it again! So I'm currently writing a second version without the bridge and since I'm at it, without the second verse and with a lot of changes in the other verses. Going to import the MIDI, mute the first bass MIDI, and see if I like this one better. Got my fingers crossed it'll work okay with the RT bass on the choruses. Doesn't answer the question about changing a MIDI in the DAW but hey, it keeps me moving forward.

And yes, why yes, I **am** still working on this song at two in the morning... oops, lol...
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/06/21 04:48 AM

A METHOD OF BUILDING A SONG. PART 1
(to quote julie andrews in sound of music....
"lets start at the very beginning a very good place to start")
heres a few ideas. phases of a song.
1. lets say song is called nuttyrok.
create a new win folder called nuttyrok.
this is where everything bout the song goes.
2. open up bb. immediately save as song name eg NROK.
in nuttyrok folder after setting up tempo/key etc .
just in case.
3. select a simple style. load it in and enter all song chords.
i dont worry bout fancy at this point. just whack in the chords.
select style with just a drum beat and say a piano.
eg like a rehearsal. save as that NROK in nuttyrok folder.
4. now heres a little trick. close up bb. exit.
in nuttyrok folder right clik over NROK.
and copy file so now in nuttyrok folder you have a NROK copy plus original NROK. with copy right clik over it and RENAME TO STYLESTESTNROK. so now you have 2 bb files in nuttyrok folder. NROK AND STYLESTESTNROK. the latter will be used to run through loads of styles in stylepicker and see which fit best.
(a trick when saveing is to incorporate key + tempo in name. so if NROK is in F sharp and tempo is 123
then could name it NROKFS123.)
might be a good idea at this point to save NROK FOLDER to back up just in case.
5. now clik on STYLESTESTNROK and bb will open up.
and all chords entered will appear. now open stylepicker.
DO YOU NOTICE IN PICKER PLAY USEING CHORDSHEET ?
now hilite a style but change tempo to the NROK TEMPO you set originally. and PLAY. and style will play with YOUR CHORDS.
heres another tip. IF YOU LIKE IT SAVE IT.
but what do you save it as ?
you could save as NROKLIKE01 followed by RT id's if you wish.
rinse and repeat going through all the styles.
saveing your likes in NROK folder.
as your going through the styles make notes in a notebook of styles you like and instruments/RT's/midis/RD's etc etc and settings you like.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ok now for an intermission.
i typically go through all styles plus or minus 50 bpm from my base bpm. so if my song is 140 bpm lets say i might go down to styles that are recommended around 90 bpm and up to 190 bpm just so i dont miss any neat vignettes/sound colours.
but i can hear people say wait a minute you might get artifacts.
yes i know. the idea is to get ideas at this point.
plus there are crafty ways to use artifacts. (via re dsp //plug ins and other tricks).
now i can hear people also say BUT BUT BUT your gonna end up with lots of bb likes files in that NROK folder.
YUP ! THATS THE IDEA.
SONGS ARE WORK IS MY REPLY . LOTS OF WORK.
GOTTA FIND THOSE NUGGETS !
i'll typically spend on a new song a few days going through styles/instruments etc. this way i dont miss the "nuggets".
anyway the bb files are very small in size.
thus in conclusion after haveing gone through all the styles (ok if you dont want the hassle just the styles for your genre for your song. but beware you might miss a nugget from another genre.)
do frequent back ups.

more next time.

best
need my breakfast oldmuso.
sorry the post wasnt text fancy. i'm limited on time.
pps good stuff charlie.

Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/06/21 04:55 AM

1. "Because there is no command or button I can find which shows me the tracks (waveforms?) anywhere."

Yes, there's a button that displays the tracks waveforms. (In version 2021)

Select a track. Any Track.
Select the the Audio Editor Button and there's your waveform. (The Audio Editor is in the Views Tool Bar beside the Audio Chord Wizard just above Bar 1 of the Chord Sheet)
(In Older versions, simply move a track to the Audio Channel to view the waveform and you can edit the track while you're there if you need to do any editing. It's much faster than using RB or any other DAW.)

2. "how does a person make a note longer in editable notation?"
Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VnIIx3V4QY

3. The drums play in =POPPLTS.STY on my system. Should work on yours too.

4. "Since bar settings doesn't work on my Utility tracks, do I need to go to RB in order to mute the bridge on my MIDI bass part? "

No. Remember, the Audio Editor is your very powerful friend. wink You can silence (Mute) tracks better using the Audio Editor in BIAB faster than you can decide if you need to edit a track in RB. In fact, it will do a better job overall than muting using Bar Settings (F5) on a regular (Legacy) BIAB Channel. Since you've "decided to take Jim's advice pretty seriously and really learn BIAB before I buy anything new." Anytime you think you need to edit a track in RB, open the Audio Editor.

8.)"Is there a way to "double" one of the tracks from the existing style? What do I do to make this happen? Where do I search?"
Absolutely yes.... And, you can double one of the tracks using any RealTrack. And, both RealTracks can be on a single track. It's a great feature, RealTracks Medley Feature.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUZ-FOM6IYQ




Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/06/21 07:53 AM

A METHOD OF BUILDING A SONG. PART 2

1. how not to get lost in the stylepicker !
so ive saved lets say 30 styles with different names with my chords in that NROK folder. maybe time for a tea break lol or its bed time. now what ?
well what i do is not only save the latest style but also additionally save the latest as LATESTNROK.
i do this so that after my break i boot up LATESTNROK.
and lo and behold the style is hilited in the stylepicker so i know the point ive reached.
(easy peasy if one sticks to alpha order for the styles. by clicking on the style name heading. you can have other orders also eg tempo ascending or descending etc etc.)
2. now some people might decide to use searches in stylepicker eg even 8 , or rock or shuffle or whatever. just be aware you might miss a "nugget of gold". for example in a recent song i did i finessed a lead guitar break from a worship style into a nearly manic rok lead
break.
if i hadnt been going through all the styles in detail i might have missed it ! SO NUGGET LOST !
(as a comical aside my wife tells her girlfriends "sometimes you gotta date a lot of frogs to meet the right man" . lol. why the heck she picked this frog with my music madness beats me.)
given the foregoing its the SAME with songs.
GOTTA FIND THE NUGGETS. now frankly i'm not saying i'm any good, let me be clear ; but i try very very hard to do the best i can and its fun doing so.
so my advise is FIND THOSE NUGGETS.
FIND THOSE HOOKS !
3. ok so whats next ? youve been through all the styles.
jotted down in your notebook instruments you like/nuggets youve found etc etc. and youve built up 80 different files maybe in that NROK folder. (remember do back ups !)
whats next ?
4. TEST SINGING//TEST LYRICS.
what i find going through all the styles is that i get more lyric ideas also. so i write those down.
at this point i try to finalise the lyrics on paper.
next i take one of "NROK like" styles in the nuttyrok folder and export to stereo wav. which i would call eg nrokguidebeds. its just a guide stereo bb trak exported from bb.
(at this point let me say some people have a different method of doing things. eg all audio also in bb and i DONT wish to debate this ! and i do recognise the NEW utility traks feature.)
i'm just trying to keep it easy for new users to grasp.
(without getting into the bb plug in. and other complexities.)
then i import into my daw of choice (other people use all sorts of different daws) reaper or rb in my case.
i import into a trak labelled. BED GUIDE TRAK.
i make sure my daw is set up to save everything into the original nuttyrok folder i created in phase 1 at song beginning.
ENSURING THE DAW IS SET TO THE SAME BPM AS MY BB SONG.
in this case NROK. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT !
now i start testing out my lead and back up vocals on several different traks. playing back with bed guide nrokguidebeds etc.
and thus finessing the lyrics/makeing adjustments etc.
so i end up with both a stereo guide bed trak and guide mono vocal different test traks.
plus at this point for laughs i might futz around noodling on my instrument (in my case geetar) and haveing relaxed fun. or use my midi keyboard hooked to usb noodling along useing a vsti instrument plug in. trying to find nuggets of sound from the depths lol.
writing more ideas down in my notebook for the NROK song.

at this point i usually try and step back from the song and assess for the Nth time. is this song worthy ? where are the song hooks ? does it rock ? etc etc. or is it junk ? lol. does it crank me up ?
at this point i try also to assess the "style" of vocals for the song.
ie should they be like "all macho" lol or "sweet"
or "down n dirty" or "cute" or or or or etc etc.
i like experimenting also with different styles of back up vocs. what does the song need ?? is there any talking in the song ? by way of an intro or any "shouts" or other vocal nuances ? screams perhaps ? etc etc etc

more next time.

best
time for a cup of tea.
oldmuso
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/06/21 10:39 AM

A METHOD OF BUILDING A SONG. PART 3.

1. lets summarise. at this point we have a bunch of potential styles, our vocs / lyric guides done and lined up with the stereo guide bed trak in the daw. ie lots of "ruff guides".
maybe have futzed around with some simple pg echo chorus plug in with lots of dry vs wet ? or some other reverb plug in on vocs.
a trick is to copy a vocal to a new track and insert a geetar amp plug on the new voc track ! << if you cant afford a "vintage" 2k mic pre try that.
BUT reduce the volume of the copied vocal track under the main vocal track. the idea is to give the trak an added dimension or personality.
another trick is to offset the copy from the original vocal track. for example in reaper i copy a clean voc track to a new trak then invoke one of reaps js amp plug ins on the copied trak and experiment with it together with eq volume level and offsets.
(note you tube computer music mag has lots of free fx and instrument plug ins if you want to add to your lib of plug ins. but try and stay away from cpu hogs. the pg plug ins are good this way. also i stay away from dongle security schemes. they drive me nuts.
for further info google free plug ins on the net and/or go to your main user forum for the daw you are useing where youll see topics pinned like "best free plug ins" and "best low latency sound devices". or simply ask on your user forum for your daw.)

2. now would be a good point to review your daw markers that segment the song. MAKE SURE DAW VERTICAL MARKERS MATCH BB SONG SEGMENTS.
ie match the bars. so daw and bb are in sync.
eg intro/verses/bridges/choruses/leads/outtro etc etc.
make sure your marker names make sense.
(read up in bb manual re "layers" etc. i use layers to type in the song segment name eg "chorus 2".)
before proceeding further i play back the song with vocs in the daw thinking bout such things as....
.how should i really start this song ?
maybe a simple bass line ? maybe a lonely geetar before the whole band crashes in whats needed to start song ?
.how should i end this song ? what instruments ? fade out or sudden ?
i suggest a listen to lots of old song hits and learn from the masters of song arrangement from the past.
at this point i also start thinking about any little fill ins //melody enhancements and i ask such questions as what soloist do i need ? or several soloists ? what about back up singers ?
can i use any added bb RT's ? like vocals or or or other RT's ?
WHAT DO I HEAR IN MY HEAD ?
WHAT IS MY SONG VISION ?
i often go "this song is driving me nuts" lol.
"i need a cuppa tea."
3. after the above steps its time to nail down the final vision of the song. take a rest maybe now and come back fresh to the song cos sometimes i get new ideas thinking bout a song after a day or so while working on another song idea.
(remember to save your work often and do back ups.)
finally if someone says (from my experience ) this piece of gear hardware or software will make your song an instant hit. be very sceptical. in my experience songs are a load of work. also ask yourself how hits were made in days of yore with a few traks and way less tech and no plug ins.
i would argue because of brilliant inventiveness both in the songs themselves and their hooks, the musicianship and the amazeing level of audio engineering.
frankly ive used loads of high end gear. its not a panacea
imho.
imho pg has provided all the tools to create great songs. just listen to the pg showcase sometime.
people on there way more talented than i am.
but i just gotta put in the work.
so dont think about magic gear. we have plenty of gear today.
if i fail and people hate a song of mine i just take my lumps and try and do better next time.
last bit of advice. do your best and thats all you can do.
and never beat yourself up. this is supposed to be FUN !
peace out.

time for a break. more to come.

best
oldmuso
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/07/21 03:36 AM

A METHOD OF BUILDING A SONG. PART 4.

1. the purpose of this 4 part series was purely to give someone new to song creation and/or pg products, a starting point for them to develope their own methods.
i simply cant cover every aspect of song production.
its vast. so i would refer the reader to lots of pg vids, the net, your local library and lots of books on the subject. as well as lots of you tube vids.
and i urge the reader to always step back often when they are creating a song and think about what makes millions of people around the world really "dig" one song over another. this is why i mention those "GOLDEN NUGGETS". frankly i just try and write songs that I LIKE.
otherwise i find i get into "paralysis by analysis" worrying about the rest of the world and fretting whether they might like or hate my song.
i DO know one thing. "know your audience".
a comical aside might give you pause for thought based on one past experience of mine as follows......
years ago i was singing in a no big deal rock band, and we were getting gigs here and there playing popular songs of the day.
i did it more for the fun/giggles of it, plus i had a day job.
(i just love singing. whether in a church or in a play or in a group or whatever. problem is as i age i cant get those very high registers as easily. lol)
at the same time i was hanging around with musicians who were way way more technically capable and theory oriented than i.
they knew every musical inversion/inside chord/flatted this and sharpened that. many, totally gifted players of their instruments.
we were always discussing music genres etc etc.
one day several of them complained to us..............
"how the hey do you guys get gigs with that silly simple chord rock stuff and pop you play ?" lol.
ie they always looked down on us. to which i replied.........
"people after a hard work day or week just want to go out and party and rock out and have fun". ie we were just giving people the "golden nuggets" they liked. so we got gigs.
to summarise "know your audience and what they want".
youll notice how i keep on referring to golden nuggets ?
2. ive purposely , up to this point, left things open ended. so you develope your own methods of work.
from now on there are lots of scenarios/ways you can proceed. eg:
.work more in the daw importing traks from your shortlist of bb styles from your stylepicker explorations and stored in the nuttyrok folder. maybe exploring what the bb plug in can do for you also.
.exporting your guide vocals as one mixed wav from daw and importing into various bb styles you have stored in the nuttyrok folder. eg a bb audio trak.
.exploring the extra utility traks if you have bb2021.
.importing into realband different styles from your shortlist in the nuttyrok folder and importing your guide vocals and genning more instrument traks. <<RB IS GRREAT FOR THIS AS YOU HAVE 48 TRAKS.
one thing i would strongly suggest is; if you have too many styles you like that you stored in that nuttyrok folder; as a result of your stylepicker explorations; you might want to cull the herd and make tough decisions as to which RT's/midis etc etc fit the song best.
what i do is create sometimes 2 folders in nuttyrok.
one called "best styles" with my top 10 styles and "b styles". ie 20 more that are possible candidates.
but at some point you will have to settle on your final style(s) you will need to use in the song.
(remember you can also switch styles in bb etc.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
well thats me done, and i hope the foregoing gives someone new a leg up and/or starting method to creating a song. as well as lots of ideas to think about.
DONT FORGET ; FIND THOSE GOLDEN NUGGETS irrespective of the song creation tools you use. also starting out dont spend lots of money because the way you view things will change over time as you get more experienced.

best
oldmuso
ps apologies if someone didnt like the foregoing.
i just do my best to help !
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/07/21 04:47 AM

No apologies Mr. Muso. I enjoyed your series from start to finish and likely will eventually read through it several more times. Insights to how one thinks about a particular subject is why how-to books are written. Thanks for the time and effort you took.

Charlie
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/07/21 08:21 AM

charlie.
thanks. respect to you.
oldmuso
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/07/21 05:04 PM

oldmuso, can I just hug you? That series is AMAZING. Thank you so much for the gift of your time and expertise. I learned a lot just on my first read and will take your advice immediately on making a copy of my song BEFORE I bring in any more MIDIs (and since I was writing a new bass part, I changed the guitar part too, so I have a couple to bring in). I have to go back and read your series through again but I already know I'm gonna find a LOT of terrific advice that I can use immediately.

Charlie, thank you for answering my questions and thank you for the links!

Wish me luck, guys, I'm headed back to it!
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/07/21 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
3. The drums play in =POPPLTS.STY on my system. Should work on yours too.


This time when I opened it, the drums were yellow rather than green. I opened the Audio Edit window to see the track and it was completely empty. I wouldn't mind a piano only track, but it clearly says in the description that the drums are RD Jazz EV 16 played by Craig Scott. So is this something I report to PG staff in the chat window? It's the first time I've come across a style that's incomplete and I'm not sure how to handle it.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/08/21 03:47 AM

Cathie.
re =POPPLTS style.
if your seeing yellow for the drums and not green you probably have FORCE MIDI DRUMS ENABLED. thus the yellow. so untick force midi drums.
lets take it in steps. TRY THIS.
1. open up bb. clik NEW. ie brand new file.
2. in stylepicker select (via search bar) =POPPLTS
3. play the bb demo. do you hear piano and real drums ?
4. clik OK. so it loads the bb demo . key of Bm on my pc.
5. now youll see the chord sheet populated with the demo chords. and youll see green piano and drums.
6. NOW CHANGE THE CHORFD SHEET BY ENTERING YOUR CHORDS TO YOUR SONG PLUS YOUR TEMPO PLUS YOUR KEY etc.
THUS REPLACEING THE DEMO SONG WITH YOUR SONG. DOES THAT NOW WORK OK ?

best
dumb old muso dont know every inside advanced chord structure and extension / has to consult a chord dictionary cos he is a rocker lol.
PS CATHIE. when you come across something you dont understand. dont fret about it. try this.
google "biab how to do xyz"
where xyz is the issue at hand.
and you will see loads of results. for example i just
googled for you "how to make a song in biab".
and found one of joanne coopers (a biab guru long time user) vids on you tube. this will save you time .hth.
Posted by: Guitarhacker

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/08/21 11:44 AM

I rarely work like that....

BUT.. if you do something that doesn't work.... and haven't gone too far... the sooner you realize you don't like something the better.... use the EDIT > UNDO to go back. I'm not sure, but I think it drops the edit list when you close the program so get it before you shut it down. Also.... if you've done a few other things before you catch the mistake and use the EDIT>UNDO you will have to redo the things after the mistake.


How to get it to start with pickup notes.... on 3.... Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Regenerate the track with the pickup or record it live.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/08/21 06:58 PM

**gives Mr. Muso the side-eye** Those are some mad long-distance IT skills, there! When I opened BIAB and the stylepicker, POPPLTS played WITH drums. It hasn't done that before, not even the very first time I played it! I hadn't even changed anything yet!
Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
if your seeing yellow for the drums and not green you probably have FORCE MIDI DRUMS ENABLED. thus the yellow. so untick force midi drums.

I didn't even know that existed...!!! Yes, it was checked and I have no clue how it got that way because I'd never so much as right clicked on a drum track before, but it's fixed now and it plays properly in the chord sheet.
Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
6. NOW CHANGE THE CHORFD SHEET BY ENTERING YOUR CHORDS TO YOUR SONG PLUS YOUR TEMPO PLUS YOUR KEY etc.
THUS REPLACEING THE DEMO SONG WITH YOUR SONG. DOES THAT NOW WORK OK ?

I have every faith that it will--that's how I started the song I'm working on now, changed the demo chords.
Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
dumb old muso dont know every inside advanced chord structure and extension / has to consult a chord dictionary cos he is a rocker lol.

You're not dumb. There's a big difference between book learning and a lifetime of skills and experience. If someone else has gone to the trouble to write all the chords down, why would you need to memorize them? You've got other things to do. **shrugs**

I'll try your Google tip. Joanne Cooper's videos--I came across a thread with one of them when I was still too new to understand what she was doing--I was in the book learning stage, don't you know--it'll probably make more sense to me now.

Thank you, Mr. Muso, for walking me through this process!!
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/08/21 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
use the EDIT > UNDO to go back. I'm not sure, but I think it drops the edit list when you close the program so get it before you shut it down. Also.... if you've done a few other things before you catch the mistake and use the EDIT>UNDO you will have to redo the things after the mistake.

So there IS an undo!! Thank you!!

I keep telling myself, I just have to learn how BIAB thinks and I'll be okay, lol...
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/12/21 09:12 PM

So. I was so thrilled with my violin parts, my new piano and my new bass.... But now that I've brought them in, they're all playing like computer beeps. **facepalm** I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong; I chose appropriate patches and regenerated. BUT there was a yellow warning message on start-up (instead of the usual "this song is transposed" message) that disappeared before I could understand it. Can someone please tell me how to find out what it said? Those messages have to be stored somewhere, right?
Posted by: etcjoe

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/13/21 05:16 AM

Go to Menu item Help: Utilities: Choose "Display Log Text File of Yellow/Green Messages...

You will probably get a huge text file, every message, and action that BIAB has done shows up with a date and time code after it
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/13/21 10:32 AM

The newest messages are at the top of the text file.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/13/21 06:13 PM

Thank you, Joe and Jim!!
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/14/21 10:48 PM

This is the error message: "Windows Audio Session error: Input and output sample rates must match. Audio input (recording) will be disabled. The error number is -9997" I can't find the place to set the sample rates.
Posted by: lambada

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/15/21 12:47 AM

My guess is match BIAB in Audio properties to your audio card or change the settings on the Audio card. It should be either 41.? or 48 from memory, but they need to match.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/15/21 08:43 AM

If your computer recently installed a Windows update, Windows likely discretely changed the Windows Audio Control Center sampling rate to 48Khz while the Band-in-a-Box audio sampling rate remained at 44.1Khz. There are at least two ways to verify the settings. Here's one.

One way to verify audio settings (See screen shot):
1) Ctrl+E opens BiaB Preferences
2) Select Audio button to open BiaB audio settings
3) Select Audio Drivers button to open the Windows Audio Drivers device audio settings. (Note this window is device specific so your window will look different from mine).
4) Compare audio settings.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/15/21 06:19 PM

Thank you so much, guys!!

Lambada, I actually have "44.1 sample rate" written on a post it note on my laptop... but I couldn't remember where to set it. **sheepish smile**

Yes, Jim, Windows DID behave badly this weekend--I went to wash the dishes and it sneaked in an update while I was distracted. Came back to shut down programs and files. **eyeroll** Honestly, this is one reason I prefer Windows 7: they don't update it anymore. But anyhow, thank you so much for the instructions. I'll fix it tonight.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/17/21 04:25 PM

**headdesk** The audio input buttons are grayed out and won't allow me to make changes to which microphone is the default and what sample rate it uses. I'm stuck with RealTek microphone array and 48 Hz.

I'm not going to record into BIAB anyway--I bring my audio in externally and my MIDIs come in from MuseScore--so I'm hoping very much this won't affect the way BIAB works for me. It's already such a rollercoaster, working one day and not the next, and I never know what I've done wrong. Just all of a sudden something works after I've tried it half a dozen different times, and who knows what I did differently, or if it was even something I did that day; could easily have been something I did the night before and didn't even notice.

New question. How do I equalize my MIDIs?

I've been reading about EQ and it seems that's what guitar pedals do, so I had thought to try it out and see if I can make the guitar part sound more realistic, and maybe fix the boomy bass and the tinny violins---BUT the only place I know to get it is in the Audio Edit Window and of course the MIDI tracks are empty in that window... yes, of course they most logically are, and I don't know why I hoped it would be different. **sheepish look** There has to be a way to do this, but I can't find it.

I've re-read the chapter on MIDI in the manual and now I know where to find things like slides and pitch bends, so that's a step forward. It's still mostly Greek to me but I found a thread on changing MIDI volume so now I understand about CC7 and CC11 as well. But it seems to me that EQ is something I might change in RB rather than BIAB... maybe I just don't know where to look.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/17/21 05:13 PM

Cathie, to set your Realtek:
1-click on Realtek HD Audio Manager
2-click on sound manager
3-click on line in
4-select 16 bits 44100Hz (CD quanity) from the drop down menu

MIDI will not show up as audio. You would have to convert the MIDI track to an audio track as the effects only work on audio AFAIK. Since I do not work that way in BiaB a BiaB expert will have to help you on this one.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: MarioD
Cathie, to set your Realtek:
1-click on Realtek HD Audio Manager
2-click on sound manager

Thank you Mario.

I don't have the manager... those windows never come up for me, and when I use the search the computer finds no results--which is a LITLLE weird, considering all the realtek files from the internal speakers should have populated. Have I mentioned lately that I am less than fond of Windows 10?? ....okay, I managed to fix the search function enough to find one folder but again, no manager. Maybe this is something I have to download separately?
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 10:15 AM

Cathie.
re your ZOOM RECORDER
i'm not sure ; but it looks like your zoom recorder has a
usb connector for connection to a pc so it can be used as a recording / playback 2x2 audio interface.
have you ever connected your zoom to the pc via usb ?
is this your zoom recorder ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFqo4gOUtgQ

if it IS your zoom in above vid ; the vid shows how to set it to record/playback from pc. which means it might work in realband recording vocals. you can do tons of voc traks in realband. (and also bb)

if its NOT your zoom please post the precise model # of your zoom and confirm that it has a usb port on it.
then the rest of us can look up its features on the zoom
web site.

best oldmuso
ps if zoom dont work i recommend (per upthread) you try a proper audio usb interface.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 10:24 AM

Cathie try alt-control-delete all at once to get to the task manager.
In task manager click on startup.
Look for Realtek HD Audio Manager.
Is it there?
If yes right click on it and the click on enable.

If it is not there click on search (the one just right of the start button)
Type control panel
Do you see the Realtek HD Audio Manager there?
If yes adjust your settings there.

If it is not there google Realtek HD Audio Manager and download and install it.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
Cathie.
re your ZOOM RECORDER
i'm not sure ; but it looks like your zoom recorder has a usb connector for connection to a pc so it can be used as a recording / playback 2x2 audio interface. have you ever connected your zoom to the pc via usb ? is this your zoom recorder ?

That is amazing!!! Yes, I have an old H1 and I record into it, then connect by USB cord to get the recordings onto my computer. Never had any idea I could record directly into RB using the H1. Thank you!
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: MarioD
If it is not there google Realtek HD Audio Manager and download and install it.


We're posting at the same time. Nope, it isn't there. Thanks for telling me how to find it.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/18/21 11:11 AM

Cathie.
re recording into pc useing zoom.
this is new info from you i was not aware of.
but dont get too excited. how old is your zoom ?
you might need to install updates for it on your pc if its old and there are zoom driver updates you havent installed.
it depends if zoom is copacetic with pg software products.
lets take ONE STEP AT A TIME. cos the devils in the zoom installation details.

1. what software are you recording into useing zoom ?
audacity ? it works good ?
2. have you installed the latest zoom drivers/set up from zoom site for your zoom ?
contact zoom support and ask them if there is a proper asio driver for your pc ; and also ask if there is a firmware update just in case.
3. open realband and see if a zoom driver is listed as available in realband audio driver settings.
if you DO. tell us what it says for input and output under asio. or if its a generic usb driver.

best
oldmuso
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/19/21 05:29 PM

LOL, Mr. Muso, you give me WAY too much credit!!! I record into the H1 itself, and then drop the file onto my dektop and edit it in audacity to get rid of noise, increase the volume, and cut it down to length. That is the sum total of my technical abilities. Until you posted that video, I didn't even know I could plug it into the computer for recording--thought it was only to transfer the file--and I've never done anything more in audacity, either.

The recorder was bought in 2012, I think, and I received it used in 2014. It's not been updated in any way, and as a matter of fact every time I plug it in, my computer tells me it's set up incorrectly and asks if I want to fix it. I used to say yes and let the old computer do its thing, but it never fixed anything and I could still record and transfer files, so eventually i just started ignoring the warning. It might be that this isn't the right solution for me as far as audio interfaces go, because I no longer get the same quality recordings from it and was thinking it needs replaced anyway. I could see if the drivers will update--maybe it'll record better, if nothing else.

Have to say I'm having a hard time concentrating right now; my attention is totally wrapped up in my song playing in BIAB. I made a temporary piano MIDI of the melody and put it in so I can have a guide while I'm singing, and I can't stop bouncing in my chair, lol... found much better piano and violin patches last night, and it sounds like a real song to me now! **huge grin** But I'm sorry to say that even though it's all RT and MIDI, it still renders to MP3 with a lot of static and that just makes no sense to me since there is no static at all in BIAB. I think it just has to be my computer. Tried saving it as a MIDI but that won't play in the media player--no sound at all. Just another thing I'm woefully technically deficient in, lol... couldn't fix the RealTek files either, so I'm thinking this means I honestly do need some hands-on IT help for this computer, and I'll have to add that into the Someday Budget. Maybe next month.

Guess I'm only a few steps up this very steep learning curve. But hey, I didn't fall down this time! And I can play the .SGU which has me dancing in my chair...I'm dying every time the bass walks down to the next part, and I finally found a generation where the synth pad is playing held chords. Managed to go back and forth between my bass part and the bass in the style and between the RD and the loop. The piano, violins, synth pad, and guitar all come in and out. Sounds real to me now! It needs better mixing and I have to go back to the manual and reread the MIDI chapter to find out how to edit the sound. Since I'm using a piano AND two basses on the choruses and coda, I need to at least figure out how to get some of that bottom boominess toned down in the MIDI bass. Have to enter the lyrics now, too. But on the whole I'm pretty happy with it!!

Although I do confess my fear that after all this months'-long build-up, y'all are gonna think the song's an anti-climax and maybe not worth listening to. But it's been a terrific learning experience, and I honestly love it. **sheepish smile**
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/19/21 07:31 PM

Well I exported it again just to see if I could fix the noise. Did some reading and tried out a notch filter--reduced it by about half, but didn't get rid of it. I hear it much worse through the front of my speakers or through the mixing headphones. Gryph doesn't hear it at all... but the sound is just not right. The piano accompaniment seems to be worst culprit but also the sheer number of instruments playing makes a difference; when it's only bass and guitar there's no static at all, when the whole band kicks in for the chorus it's very noticeable.

I read oldmuso's thread about golden nuggets, and clicked the link to the big DAW... and there it was right in the description, "because the last thing you want to hear is your PC!" Oy.

So guys, here are my new questions.
1. if I throw this MP3 into a DAW, is there some way to remove the noise?
2. do you think the existing sound card created the noise?
3. if I get an audio interface, can I render an MP3 or WAV without noise?
4. this is totally counterintuitive to me, but could the rendering process be picking up the room fan? I wouldn't think an internal rendering would even be able to pick up anything in the room, but I have no idea if the microphone array is completely disabled even though BIAB says it is. But if it can't, could the fan blowing directly on me be vibrating my computer enough to interfere with rendering?

Honestly, I would have thought data and programming wouldn't be affected by external things like a fan, but I know enough to know that I really know very little about how things work!
Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 05:40 AM

I'll try to answer some of your questions but it is hard to determine where the noise is coming from if we can't hear it. Maybe you could post a song with the noise so we can try to determine where it is coming from. Also putting you system's data in your byline would help us.

1- the free Audacity and its plug-ins can do many things to a wav or MP3 including taking out noise. https://www.audacityteam.org/

2-Maybe but we would have to hear it. However it shouldn't be adding noise.

3-yes If the noise is not generated by your computer.

4-If the mic and fan are both on when you are recording then that could cause noise.

Have you tried to record anything other then BiaB? Try recording a youtube audio. Does it have noise? Doing this may determine where the noise is being generated, either by your computer and sound card or your recording.

A couple of last thoughts do you have a cell phone that is on near your computer or keyboards? We have had problems here with musicians having a live phone generating noise while recording and listening. Is your computer very close to your modem or router? That can generate noise also.

I hope this helps and good luck.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 05:59 AM

<< 1. if I throw this MP3 into a DAW, is there some way to remove the noise? >>

It's possible but that's a temporary fix and not the solution to your issue. It's likely to only reduce or mask the noise rather than remove it. The solution is to stop the noise at the source.

<< 2. do you think the existing sound card created the noise? >>

No. It could be in the sound source chain, Mic, Cable or sound card's physical connection. The symptoms detailed throughout this thread make me think the noise is externally generated and being picked up along the way into the PC.

<< 3. if I get an audio interface, can I render an MP3 or WAV without noise? >>

It's possible but you'll have to spend the money to find out. Since you know you are currently recording your audio in an external device not connected to your PC, it's a clear indication your PC system including the soundcard is how the noise is getting into your recordings.

It's possible the noise is being 'captured' by the soundcard but just as likely it's some other on-board system or component of your PC. No guarentee an audio interface will 'solve' the problem. It's also possible one brand of audio interface works and the noise is gone while if you choose another brand, it doesn't.

<< 4. this is totally counterintuitive to me, but could the rendering process be picking up the room fan? >>
Yes. It could be your house wiring, plug, a light switch, a power strip, florescent lighting, led lighting, AC, fridge, stove/range, power supplies or a host of other items. It could also be coming from the PC itself...


You can test the audio interface theory with your Zoom H1. Download and install the drivers, connect the USB and set the device as your recording and playback selection, make a test recording and you'll have your answer.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 06:14 AM

I have a few questions Cathie.


1. No noise when you import the audio you recorded on your Zoom H1 to edit the file in Audacity?

2. No noise when you import the audio track into BIAB and work on your song?

3. Is the noise limited to just the audio track or to all of the rendered BIAB tracks.
(To test for isolating the tracks and determine this, export each track as a WAV individually rather than a mixed stereo render)

4. My understanding is you don't hear any noise until you render your song in BIAB. Is this correct?

EDIT:

5. Is there ever any noise when you export a song in Audacity?

6. Is there ever any noise when you export a song or WAV file, MP3 from BIAB that you've Not added a externally recorded audio file to?
In other words, can you export songs or files from BIAB without them having noise added when you render?

Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 06:54 PM

Hi guys, thank you so much.

There is zero audio. This is only BIAB RT plus MIDI notation exported from MuseScore (and given BIAB patches). I didn't record anything at all--I just rendered an MP3 right out of BIAB.

I love Audacity, Mario, but it was a no-go. You have to be able to isolate the noise, and this is embedded in the song. I did use the notch filter and it took it down by about half. Dunno if I can repeat that without getting artifacts, though.

The router is around the corner about ten feet away. The cell phone and a small LED lamp are two feet to my right, as are my external (bluetooth) speakers. The plant lights are six feet to my left, behind me. The fan is five feet in front of me. Gizmo (the keyboard) is six feet to my left in front of me.

I turned off the fan and unplugged Gizmo and the plant lights, rendered the MP3 again---noise. So I grabbed an early copy of the song, deleted all the MIDI tracks from it, and rendered only the RT style as an MP3. Clean as a whistle, UNTIL the piano started playing--noise!!

I'm still just baffled. Why on earth do the pianos, both RT and MIDI patch, render with noise?! Nothing else does, not even the synth pad (Pop Modern Groove). I'm not skilled enough to be able to tell what the heck is going on.

Hi, Charlie. When I do record a song with the Zoom H1, I routinely take it to Audacity and remove all the noise. And when I export it as MP3, no noise. When I took an MP3 to BIAB, it played clean--no noise--but then it rendered horribly, tons of noise. But since this current rendering is instrumental only with no imported audio, I don't know whether the noise from the older render (trashed! heck no, couldn't save it, didn't keep it) was just the pianos or was the audio as well.

The more instruments are playing at once, the more noise the pianos make. Don't know if that means there's more than one problem or not. The more I try to track this down, the more complicated it seems to get! And yes, y'all understand correctly, I hear no noise at all until I render the song in BIAB.

There's never any noise when I export an MP3 from Audacity. Just tried it again, to be sure--no noise.

So I tried saving the SGU as a MIDI. Isn't that a trip? No style came with it at all!! And it rendered every single patch as "piano." I could have done that myself in MuseScore, and I'd have had drums. BUT it rendered pretty clean, except for a ringing on a high pitch that corresponds with where I hear the noise in the MP3 rendering. That ringing doesn't show up in the rendered MP3, but then maybe it's buried in the noise--or maybe it becomes the noise.

Gotta say this song makes for an interesting piano piece, even without the style. I'd imagine it needs six hands, lol.

How do I attach a file so y'all can hear it? Does it have to be a link?

Thank you for helping me with this puzzle. You keep me from throwing my hands up in despair and just walking away.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 07:18 PM

Sorry I keep asking questions but I'm on a different track from everyone else. There may be a quick, easy and no cost solution to your issue as soon as I know where the noise is coming from first.

So, with that in mind,

<< Hi, Charlie. When I do record a song with the Zoom H1, I routinely take it to Audacity and remove all the noise.>>
Are you saying the exact same noise that you hear when a song renders in BIAB is also in a recording you do in the H1?
or
Is the noise you're trying to remove with Audacity after a recording on the H1, room background noise picked up by the H1 microphone during recording?

Lastly,

If you select a Style in BIAB, input some chords or load a style demo, play the 'song', does the song play clearly or is there noise?
If it plays clearly, but you render it to a WAV or MP3, that's when noise is inserted into the rendered version that is output?

Do the pianos that are acting up with both MIDI and RT's act up only with the current Style you've chosen or is every piano, MIDI and RT rendering with noise?

What happens if you Rt click on a piano track and select Track Actions\Save as a WAV file?

What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly.

If that's the case, I may be able to have you recording a clear song tonight... wink

Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Sorry I keep asking questions but I'm on a different track from everyone else. There may be a quick, easy and no cost solution to your issue as soon as I know where the noise is coming from first.

Believe me, I appreciate your time and trouble!!!
Originally Posted By: Charlie
Are you saying the exact same noise that you hear when a song renders in BIAB is also in a recording you do in the H1?
or
Is the noise you're trying to remove with Audacity after a recording on the H1, room background noise picked up by the H1 microphone during recording?

The noise I remove from my own recordings is ambient room noise plus my breathing and whatever fans might be running in my keyboard. The noise when I render an MP3 or WAV from BIAB is static, or a high-pitched ringing--but the static sounds like really loud room noise, way louder than I get when I'm recording (and I'm just in my dining room, nothing fancy, not even a pop filter on the recorder).
Originally Posted By: Charlie
Lastly,

If you select a Style in BIAB, input some chords or load a style demo, play the 'song', does the song play clearly or is there noise?

Clear as a bell.
Originally Posted By: Charlie
If it plays clearly, but you render it to a WAV or MP3, that's when noise is inserted into the rendered version that is output?

Yes.
Originally Posted By: Charlie
Do the pianos that are acting up with both MIDI and RT's act up only with the current Style you've chosen or is every piano, MIDI and RT rendering with noise?

Oh dear, I haven't tested that yet.
Originally Posted By: Charlie
What happens if you Rt click on a piano track and select Track Actions\Save as a WAV file?

My speakers shut off. Honest, my doggoned speakers shut off! **eyeroll** Took me a while to figure that out. Now the track is playing in the media player, and there is a small bit of noise, "fuzzy" like the distortion on an electric guitar if it were turned way low (the effect, not the guitar). This is 2461, Acoustic Piano, and it's a RT. This is the cleanest piano sound I;ve gotten so far in a rendering.
Originally Posted By: Charlie
What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly.

If that's the case, I may be able to have you recording a clear song tonight... wink

Oh, how I wish!! But no, when I removed all the MIDI tracks from an earlier version of my song and rendered just the style as an MP3, it got a lot of staticky noise once this same piano started playing.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/20/21 08:45 PM

**headdesk** I have a simple blues progression up, switched to =POPPLTS.STY the pop solo piano... static. It's just playing in BIAB, and distorted like a fuzzy guitar would be. Gonna shut BIAB down and restart it....

Okay, much less static this time, but not clean like I remember it. **sigh**

2263 Acoustic Piano is pretty clean, and it saved as a WAV pretty clean. _MPBBP.STY, 80s Medium Pop The style rendered as an MP3 with a low background level of noise, almost clean.

1542, Acoustic Piano, no noise in BIAB. _ALTCAMP.STY Absolutely clean in BIAB, rendered clean as a WAV, style rendered clean as an MP3!!!!

Good grief, could it just be the voice patches?
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 06:24 AM

Well, I said was "What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly."

And we got to "Clear as a bell."

We almost made it! We have clear sound playing but not when the song is rendered.

I reviewed all the posts in this thread last night focusing on any remarks addressing the noise.

With that said, what's next?

Time and money will eventually fix your PC and get it to play nicely with BIAB/RB. With the information you've provided me, I can tell you ways to possibly bypass the noise issue with rendering BIAB you presently have but nothing I say will fix the problem or actually address it in any way. It should bypass the noise and allow you to record clear audio tracks and mixes.

Try this first.
Open and load a song into BIAB
Play it to ensure it's playing cleanly
Open Audacity and set the input to record Stereo Mix
Play the BIAB song and check that Audacity is monitoring the sound
Press record in Audacity to begin recording
Press play to start the BIAB song

This should record clean audio. It records in real time but you can record either individual tracks, a mix or both according to your needs.

Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Well, I said was "What I'm hoping for is that BIAB with no type of input other than the instruments of a Style plays clearly and renders clearly."

And we got to "Clear as a bell."

We almost made it! We have clear sound playing but not when the song is rendered.

......................



Charlie, are we sure about this? According to Cathie's last post there was distortion while just playing in BiaB:

"**headdesk** I have a simple blues progression up, switched to =POPPLTS.STY the pop solo piano... static. It's just playing in BIAB, and distorted like a fuzzy guitar would be. Gonna shut BIAB down and restart it....

Okay, much less static this time, but not clean like I remember it. **sigh**

2263 Acoustic Piano is pretty clean, and it saved as a WAV pretty clean. _MPBBP.STY, 80s Medium Pop The style rendered as an MP3 with a low background level of noise, almost clean.

1542, Acoustic Piano, no noise in BIAB. _ALTCAMP.STY Absolutely clean in BIAB, rendered clean as a WAV, style rendered clean as an MP3!!!!"


I'm beginning to wonder if she either has a gain stage problem, although it is weird that it is intermittent, like you indicated a defective computer, inadvertent effects being added, or a virus that is messing things up?

An after thought, I wonder if her speakers, speaker cables, or the speaker jack is going bad?

Cathie, if you are reading this try unplugging and plugging in your speaker cables a couple of times. Does this correct the problem?
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 11:28 AM

<< Charlie, are we sure about this? >>

No. But - "Clear as a bell" came from Cathie in response to me asking if BIAB playback was clear or noisy.

I'm attempting to help her locate a tap point to capture clear BIAB audio output. Once that is accomplished, she has all of the tools and knowledge to bypass all of the other issues, learning curves, additional equipment/interfaces and such and be able to make some music as she continues getting the hardware and software issues worked out.

Once she has access to clear audio output of BIAB tracks and mixes, if she wants to, she can reverse her current path of trying to record into the PC and instead use her hardware zoom recorder for recording her keyboard and vocals mixed with BIAB tracks and finish her mix in Audacity where she's familiar with the workflow and isn't having noise creation issues.

That's a much more intuitive and straightforward workflow than she's facing with in the box PC. Consider this. She purchased a 2012 year model Zoom in 2014 and it's still going strong. She understands it's functionality and workflow. I suggest that's a better starting point than what she's facing transitioning to in the box PC recording.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 02:10 PM

Oh my gosh Charlie!! Don't give me so much credit. I don't know anything more about the Zoom H1 and Audacity than I do about BIAB, honest. At this point I can do more in BIAB. I've certainly studied it more.

Woke up with a good feeling today, and so I went back to my song, turned off the reverb on the piano and violins (it was left over from the lower-quality patches; HQ patches don't need it, lesson learned), turned the volume down on almost everything, worked on the arrangement some--have NO idea why the rests don't take on the loop; the track's not frozen--but anyway, I just rendered the MP3 and the noise is almost completely gone!!! I didn't even get as far as unplugging the speakers like Mario suggested! And I think maybe what I pick up as low-level noise in this new MP3 might be just a natural piano sound. It's NOTHING like yesterday; zero static! Zero distortion!

Ended up subbing piano 890 in the RT, and not only is the sound lovely and clean, the style fits my song way better, so that's a bonus--I'm thinking about oldmuso and his "golden nuggets" in styles you just don't expect.

Mario, I could very well have a defective computer, although it's brand new so that would be truly frustrating. What I'm thinking now is that maybe I'm just so inexperienced at mixing that I inadvertently set myself up for noise from the interactions among volume, patches, and reverb. It still doesn't sound clean to me, doesn't sound professional to me--but it has a great beat and it makes me dance in my chair.

What I don't know is how to get it so y'all can listen to it. I tried Soundcloud but the private link wouldn't share. Oh well. One thing at a time, right?
Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 03:51 PM

Cathie, you turned down the volumes and it rendered with less noise? I wonder if you have a gain stage problem; that is the volume of BiaB's output overwhelms your RealTek volume. So try this turn, your Realtek volumes up to 95% and keep your BiaB volumes low. Let us know if that helps or eliminates the problem.

{edit} It still could be a bad speaker cable, a bad speaker jack, or a bad connection. You still might want to try plugging and unplugging the speaker jack an number of times if the above doesn't work.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/21/21 07:39 PM

Great blue dragons, it is a flaming good thing I finally got that MP3 to render because I'm suddenly back to the beginning with BIAB. I cannot choose MIDI patches for the utility tracks and even previously chosen MIDI patches--like the guitar, bass, and two violins in my song--won't play with any voice but "1 Acoustic Piano" which is not even the good piano voice. I unplugged the hard drive and then plugged it back in again (twice!) but it wouldn't change back. I went to my other songs: same problem. So I started a new song, chose the electric jazz guitar patch for a utility track, and wrote it a short MIDI melody. BIAB assigned it to "1 Acoustic Piano" (at a very low volume, so that the style drowns it out even though it's set to 90 like everything else) and refuses to change it. **headdesk**

All that "operator error" benefit of the doubt? No. This is nothing I did, although it might be something Build 835 did. Me, I just think there's a troll living in my copy of BIAB.

Mario, you're probably right about the gain stage problem. BIAB periodically messes with my speakers--so SORRY that I got Bluetooth, sheesh--and it was blaring pretty loudly when I didn't expect it to after I updated to 835. When the troll is vanquished and the MIDI returns, I'll try the different things you and Charlie have mentioned to see if I can get this computer to do proper sound. But for tonight, I am taking my headachy self off to do other things.
Posted by: justanoldmuso

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/22/21 03:54 AM

Cathie...
its very important to let the rest of us know your set up in detail.
1. bluetooth. this is new info.
i personally dont use it. whether this is giving you probs i dont know. only way to know is to run tests with a non bluetooth wired set up. ie directly wiring from your pc audio output to the logitech stereo line input assuming logitech has a line input ?
then play some audio in win media player and see if everythings nice and clean OR if your pc has a cd/dvd player.
(some dont now..so use a song on a usb drive.)
insert a cd and see how that sounds as a test.
post your logitech model number so people can advise further.
and see whether your logitech has a wired option.
2. losing your settings when coming back to biab after a break.
how are you saveing your biab songs ? what function are you useing to save in biab ? if your settings are all out of whack when you come back try biab "saveing with patches" option.
3. other matters. IMPORTANT .
when you have time i would read carefully the sections of the biab and realband manuals dealing with setting up drivers. because at some point this info will be needed if you decide to either test the zoom as a audio device OR use what most recording rigs use ie ..
a usb low latency audio interface instead of the realtek.
also lots of vids on you tube and various manufacturers web sites bout this topic.

every happiness. and just have fun with it all.
best
oldmuso
CATHIE AN IMPORTANT NOTE.
IF YOU CHANGE VOLUME ON AN INSTRUMENT AND IT DOESNT TAKE AND REVERTS BACK...THIS IS AN EMBEDDED MIDI COMMAND.
read up on the event editor and how to use it.

Posted by: MarioD

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/22/21 05:38 AM

Cathie, you are not the only one having bluetooth problems:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/very-distorted-sound-from-bluetooth-headset-on/7ab797a8-cd88-40b2-befd-4be764285a6c

Maybe this will help:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10/

As the oldmuso indicated we now need to know everything about your system. Things like computer name, model, amount of ram, all of your peripherals, etc.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 06/22/21 04:09 PM

Thank you oldmuso and Mario. I appreciate your help.

Yes, this computer has a DVD drive, also a wireless mouse, and I suppose it came with a webcam (haven't ever bothered with it). The speakers have a line in but they only work if the bluetooth controller is turned on. Bought them for the subwoofer, not the bluetooth--haven't ever had that before, don't think I'll bother with it again. It's an HP--again, not going to bother with it ever again--so I can't even FIND the RealTek driver to do an uninstall/reinstall (it isn't in the control panel where it's supposed to be). Must be buried somewhere in the HP sound package. And BIAB is on a harddrive.

Since I didn't have this trouble with Utility Tracks with Build 833, I'm thinking I need tech support. Got to be some setting somewhere that got switched off in the update.

Took a memory and cognition test today at the doc; the good news is that I actually don't have dementia, which surprises me no end. The very bad news is that I have so much skyrocketing stress in my life that it made me think I have pretty severe dementia if not Alzheimer's. Been told to find things to do which let me escape the stress. That is definitely not BIAB or the computer today. Maybe I'll go cry into my keyboard, so to speak... yikes, the idea of saltwater escaping into the keys of an electronic instrument makes me shudder!! **laughing at myself** Okay, maybe I'll finish the Bad Luck Song, which has languished for six years because I was afraid of invoking it... er, well... **gives BIAB the side eye** maybe not!

I'll come back tomorrow, reread your posts, and try again. Hope y'all have a peaceful evening (or morning if you're on another continent). Thank you so very much for not giving up on me. I really appreciate everyone here.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/02/21 05:11 PM

Hi everyone, checking in with an update. I've continued to track down the problems I've mentioned here. The static has been isolated to my speakers, and they seem to have the power to corrupt even commercial CDs, yikes!! But luckily the problem is solved with headphones, so I know that replacing the speakers will solve that component. Unfortunately we've so far been unable to solve whatever on earth is wrong with my Utility Tracks and I'm waiting for a return email from the support department.

Being unable to use the Utility Tracks properly makes it pretty hard to work on my music in BIAB, although it is kind of fun writing MIDI notation in my test song as I work out the parameters of the problem, and it does give me practice in writing in the editable notation window. Kinda wish there was a score window (not piano roll, but like sheet music) so I could write multiple parts at once, but hey, that's what MuseScore is for.

I have to say that I don't feel near so incompetent now that I know this inability to complete a song is actually a software glitch and not operator error. I shared that one MP3 rendering I managed to make (before the problems got started), and my friend was amazed at "the lush sound." She loved it, which thrilled me--isn't it the best feeling when someone loves your song?

Once we get my Utility Tracks working properly again I'll go back to it and get the song finished, then move on to the next one. Thank you for all the help you've offered. The questions y'all have asked me have helped me to understand how to track down these problems. It's definitely affecting the Melody, Soloist, and Utility Tracks--anywhere I try to use MIDI, either imported or written directly into the notation window. Interestingly, it also won't let me edit any BIAB MIDI tracks--pretty sure I've seen tutorials where a MIDI style got edited. So anyhow, we'll see what happens next week, and in the meantime I wish you all well. May your weekend be filled with happiness and music!! **smiling**
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/02/21 06:36 PM

You may be thinking about the "StyleMaker". You can use the StyleMaker to create a new MIDI style or edit an existing MIDI style.

You open the StyleMaker by going to File > StyleMaker and make a selection from the StleMaker pop up window. You can use keystrokes Alt + F9 to open the StyleMaker and select a style to edit or Ctrl + Shift + F9 to open StyleMaker and edit the current style.

Press F1 to open the Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) Help file and enter the term StyleMaker in the search tab. You will find a bunch of tutorials about using the StyleMaker.

One thing to remember; as far as I know the StyleMaker only works with MIDI, not audio. The MIDI transcriptions available in most RealTracks can not be permanently altered with the StyleMaker.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/04/21 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
You may be thinking about the "StyleMaker". You can use the StyleMaker to create a new MIDI style or edit an existing MIDI style.

Thank you, Jim. That's not something I've explored before. Didn't think a MIDI only style would have associated RT but maybe this one does, because BIAB offered to substitute RT for it. I just thought that was a standard dialogue for all MIDI styles. Still have so much to learn!
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/05/21 12:12 PM

Open Preferences (Ctrl+E) and select the RealTracks button. There is a setting to replace MIDI styles with RealTrack styles.

Select the RealDrums button and you'll find there is a setting to replace MIDI drums with RealDrums.
Posted by: Cathie

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/05/21 08:55 PM

Good to know where to turn that off!!

I'm missing working with BIAB right now. Be so glad when I can get back to it!
Posted by: Marty Ricciotti

Re: The Nuts and Bolts of It All: How do I....? - 07/13/21 10:44 AM

This is a wonderful read. Lots of tips. I'm going to have to read to a few more times