I've searched the forum for pasts posts on copyright issues using realtracks. The consensus seems to be that we are free to copyright original songs using real tracks.

However, that is on PA copyrights. What about SR copyrights, which is the copyright on the physical recording?

See the problem? I'm into jazzy songs, and some of my BiaB backing tracks use licks from horn players.

The problem is, those licks are in a publicly ( to BIAB owners) accessible database.

I"ve done a lot of copyrighting in my 70 years on this earth, and copyright law says you can't copyright something that has been done before.

In other words, the SR copyright cannot possibly protect the instrumental tracks, only the chords words and melody, only that which a PA copyright would normally protect.

The tracks, for SR copyright purposes, are in the public domain.

The tracks themselves, are not unique, only the 'sequence' is unique ( the chord progression, if, indeed, it is unique, which it wouldn't be on most blues songs ).

NOte that this issue has never been challenged in court, as far as I know, but since all owners of a copy of BIAB have access to the same instrumental tracks, and they are prerecorded, that means those recordings are copyrighted by default but nevermind that PGMUSE grants public use of them. So that means 'public domain' ( to BiAB owners ). Now, PGMUSIC grants us use of them, and use of them for copyrighting the song, but no mention of copyrighting the actual recording, which is what a 'sound recording' copyright does ( an SR copyright ).

So, why would I want an SR copyright? I would want an SR copyright when licensing masters for Film and TV deals. And I'm finding out they don't know about BIAB, and the copyright issues. Apparently this is new copyright territory.

My question is this: Am I correct? ( I don't see how I am incorrect, though, given what I know about copyrighting SR copyright recordings).

This is from the website:

https://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq1.htm#22

This is an earlier post.

If anyone from PG wants to re-clarify regarding the "Sound Recording" issue, I would be interested as well. Just for "one last time..." I guess.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=287872&page=1

When in doubt concerning copyright law, consult a copyright attorney for an expert opinion. Every situation is different. An attorney may be able to better look over PG Music's copyright information and a library's requirements and then be able to explain the source of your audio content better than you.

Each film and sound library has their own unique set of rules and guidelines they follow regarding content. You may find one allows the use of third party audio while another does not.

Some libraries will view RealTracks as loops while others will view them the same as session musicians for hire. The viewpoint they choose will likely determine the set of internal rules and guidelines a library follows.

Can someone from PG Music please chime in here?

There has to be a legal answer, and to be sure PG Music has researched this out the yin-yang.

If there are any cases in which BIAB is considered "third party audio" that could be in violation of any sync licensing rules, no one I know would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

I would like PG to present us with legal definitions and up to date rulings that one can stake a claim on, now that this has been raised.

That's funny. PG Music has commented on this before as has been noted.

If you want precise legal definitions, probably best to have your attorneys contact theirs. Otherwise, their ELUA and any previous public explanations will likely have to suffice.

Feel free to ignore any advice from armchair experts who are not actual spokespersons of PGM, even those who have worked in music industry legal departments like I.

FWIW from somebody older than you

As everyone is aware BiaB tracks do mix it up a bit with regens and don't always sound the same (and many of us comp them up) but as others have alluded to I don't think that matters.

It seems to me, forgive me if wrong, that what you are describing could be applied to any free loop??

And another FWIW, we have 28 songs licensed some by world wide companies and all use BiaB tracks. The bulk of our catalog is also on Youtube. Not once have we ever had anyone question the source of the tracks, etc.

As other's have alluded to this question has appeared with some regularity over the decade that we've been members here and the consensus is always that if you buy the product you own what you create with it. Heck that's a HUGE part of PG Music's business model.

Bud

Use the tracks. PG has given you that right as long as you are not doing covers. For covers, you must adhere to the copyright laws. For original songs, you own the rights to the tracks you create.

As has been said by others having music published, I also have tracks that were and are being used commercially on TV and in films. There have been no problems regrading the use of any of my tracks. Knowing that PG has given me the right to use them, I simply claim them as my own and that I own 100% of the controlling interest and rights. That's all the publishers and libraries want to know. It's in the contract in writing and that's all that matters.

#metoo - I never ran into any infringement questions about my use of BIAB tracks.

https://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq5.htm#23


23. Are songs that I create with Band-in-a-Box or RealBand copyrighted?

The arrangements made by Band-in-a-Box and RealBand are yours, and your songs may be used freely as long as they don't infringe upon the intellectual property rights of others.

Thank you for this.

As has been pointed out before, an online forum is not a replacement for real legal expertise, but I think this is clear that PG music has stated you can use these as you wish as long as you don't infringe on someone else's copyright, such as cover songs. You need permission to record those and as you know it is not that hard to obtain for most music. Some artists are very protective of their work as is their right, but most songs are available for licensing through the various entities that do that.

The OP's actual question was:

"However, that is on PA copyrights. What about SR copyrights, which is the copyright on the physical recording?"


I have had an SR copyright denied,because they wanted a release from every musician performing on the tracks. It doesn't matter what PG Music says, it's all down to the bureaucrat that is reviewing the application.


Regards,

Bob

Throwing a spanner in the works here, It's all very well PG Or other companies such as Toontrack with its Ezkeys granting copyright, but if a user was to write a song with the samples from one of these programs, and got it included in a movie, and another user had written a similar kind of song (because the samples are limited in each program)

One user could end up suing another.

Even though the one user did nothing to infringe on the other user as they were not trying to get there song in the movie. The copyright laws are archaic and ultimately flawed but nothing will ever change.
Just like copyright on 32 measures of rest followed by 1 eighth note can be obtained. Makes no sense whatever.

Unless you are a huge artist, or your work is always being used in movies and TV spending the money to register a copyright is mostly a waste of your money and time. Your copyright exists as soon as you create the music. It is the registering of that copyright that the government does so poorly.

Put it out on the forum, post it to the net, send yourself a registered copy, but don't count on that as legal protection. Music and art has gotten to be cut throat. The US Copyright office permits collections, I think 10 or 12, for the same price as one. Cost thereby reduced to a few dollars per song. Free Course

I talked to an entertainment lawyer once who does nothing but this kind of stuff all day.

He said, you know what David, I hope you do write a great hit worthy song and somebody steals it. I pray to God that you write that song and post it to Soundcloud and someone steals it and then posts their song to Soundcloud 3 days later and then has a big hit on the radio with the song they stole from you.

I really want that to happen to you David.

Because it will be the best day of your life.

And mine.

Complication?
PGMusic is a Canadian Company and we're from all over.

No! By oversimplifying the subject, you've gotten it wrong.


You may register up to 10 works on a Form PA or SR/PA — Unpublished only. Published works are one to a PA only — if PA is checked on an SR, only the first is protected. You can register multiple recordings on an SR but the rights to the songs will not be protected.

You do not need to register unpublished works but registering them establishes date of creation and entitles you to other protections.



Posting is publishing because you've made it available to the public. If you publish, you lose all protections you were entitled to for unpublished works. Since you've lost those rights, no reason to register them on a Form PA Unpublished — nothing to protect.

Published works must have individual Copyright registrations to be properly protected. Your rights to published works begin the date that the Library of Congress uses on the processed certificate and not before (recent Supreme Court ruling cleared up long standing confusion on this point).



There is absolutely no reason to do this. Other than the waste of time and postage, that doesn't count for anything at all.

I'm betting you didn't watch the Alison course that you linked. If you did, you have now learned about Trademark & Copyright in India.

Yep... my sentiments exactly.

A guy I worked with one day made a comment intended to be insulting..... knowing I was a musician and a songwriter.... The song Grandma got run over by a Reindeer came on the radio and he says in a laughing manner.... "That sounds like something you would have written. " It was obvious he intended it as an insult. I replied.... yep, I wish I HAD written that because I wouldn't be working here, I'd be rich. He shut up....

Ha ha!

Yeah I would take that insult too!

No problem!

Great comeback!

Oh hell yes! As Liberace said, "I cry all the way to the bank!"

I doubt anyone would get very far claiming infringement of a real track used in one of their original compositions if someone else were to come along and get that same sound on one of their own recordings. We buy and use Band in a Box undertanding that many many composers are using the same program and same real tracks.
However, with the right judge or right lawyer, stranger things have happened.
If this is going to break out in profitable litigation, we would expect it to come from the beat loops generation doing hip hop, rap, or any of the indistinguishable clones by artist such as Taylor Swift or Justin Beiber, you know, three note melodies.
Holy cow! It's almost that time of year, again.
https://youtu.be/MgIwLeASnkw

Equal opportunity says I should post this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EECXvtrMrY