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#546844 - 07/26/19 02:58 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Up to this version, biab only knows 7 chords. Yes, seven.
It displays all kinds of chords, but can’t play them.
If you notate C7b9, biab stubbornly plays a natural 9.
Biab only knows 7 chords
*Maj7
*7
*7sus4
*m7b5
*9/13
*m7
*Dim
Korg, Yamaha, Wersi are quite literate at playing chords. They know b9, mMaj7
You might say...
you, sir, are wrong! Biab knows all the chords. It’s like Guitar George.
Except, it isn’t guitar George. Take a random walking bass style with 9ths and thirteenths and all. Now, open the chord view, enter chords like C7susb9 or CmMaj7 or C7#9. Put the B-part marker. Check if the accompaniment sounds right. Well, it doesn’t. You can enter the chords, but your band won’t play them right.

You might say...
Tweak the settings, ignoramus: Jazz up the chords or turn off natural arrangement.
Well, that won’t work, either. There’ll be some changes, but Biab still ignores b9 or #9 or mMaj7. It’s easy to check. Type in random “interesting” chords and watch Biab ignore all the extensions and alterations.

You might say...
In styles you have the option of playing certain alterations when moving up a fourth to a min chord.
That’s cool, but a lot of more interesting music has alterations on chords not moving up a 4th. Check out Fall or Infant Eyes (Wayne Shorter)
That leaves us with Biab not knowing basic chords. The mMaj7 is a big one, Chelsea Bridge, an Ellington staple by the great Billy Strayhorn
You might say...
Using the right slash chord will give you the right notes. .
A lot of discussion went on, on other parts of the forum. Believe me, it won’t work.
You might say...
It doesn’t really matter. Bass players and pianists are often playing just the stock chords.
For one, this statement is not true at all: check out the aebersold records. Bassists, guitarists and piano players play the right extensions and interprete freely, adding sus chords or dim chords to spice it all up.
You might say...
Biab should have to know all the harmonic rules, that’s impossible
Here, you are right! We shouldn’t let rules or software determine the chord’s extensions. The chords should be properly entered (don’t just put C7 if you want #9, for instance) and that’s our job. And then the software should play what we entered.
It would help us check out different chord alterations to spice up the music.
You might say...
Move to Yamaha if you like it so much...
Well, thing is, Biab is still a great tool. You can make your own styles, there are a lot of good styles to be had (including “factory” made), Biab has an easy way of arranging the music with pushes and holds, with the conductor window, it displays the melody with chords above in reasonably good notation. The loop function is sometimes quirky, but works, the vst support is finally improving. And, let’s face it, we all just love our biab!
You might say...
that would mean changing all those real tracks..
I’m only talking midi here. With the right vst midi sounds killer


Edited by Dzjang (07/26/19 07:22 AM)
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
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#546851 - 07/26/19 03:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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I might say
If you just want midi and to be able to enter "Any" chord then you could use RapidComposer as a standalone or as a vst in Biab.
Biab-RapidComposer-Ample Bass Win/Mac
Video Demo

I might say
You could use Studio One Chords from Biab Plugin then move the tracks in and make them follow the chord track as Melodyne will correct the chords in the tracks (though not sure how many chords it has).

As you say midi would be the way as you would need hours n hours of realtrack recordings to cover George's chords even though it's strictly rhythm.
You can create a UserTrack with all the chords and see if it plays the corresponding chord or substitutes for another, but as I just recall it maybe still a bit screwed up that way.


Attachments
RC-Aliases.gif


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#546855 - 07/26/19 04:31 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
He Pipeline, thx, man
George plays strictly rhythm, it’s up to us to make it cry, innit?

Studio One and Rapid Composer perform some great tricks, but I need the chord sheet (preferrably even lead sheet) to play. Nevertheless, wonderful complex workarounds. And some great sounds right there! Good vibe, amazing bassline.

Btw, I don’t believe in the AI-technology and randomizers. They got it all wrong. Impro-visor tried to decipher Monk and Parker using probabilities performed on intervals and stuff. The result is not as good as the biab-soloist who just relies on patterns linked to chords. If only biab knew more chords. I see no lack of variation in the styles, as long as there is some material there. It’s just that Biab is tone deaf.

Nothing fancy btw, in these chords. Every jazz song since the fifties uses melodic minor and diminished harmony. All of which Biab is ignorant of.


Edited by Dzjang (07/26/19 04:34 AM)
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#546858 - 07/26/19 04:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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Noel96 Offline
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Hi Dzjang,

Have disengaged "Natural Arrangements" when trying the above chords. This gives BIAB license to change chords entered. I always leave it off because I want my chords to play as written.

Regards,
Noel
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#546861 - 07/26/19 04:57 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Noel96]
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Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
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...and rightly so.
But even then: no mMaj7, no flat or sharp nine chords.
Bottom line is, it’s not that Biab doesn’t read the chords or doesn’t want to show them. It just doesn’t play the right notes. It doesn’t play as written, it ignores your writing like the tone deaf neighbour bass-player who just doesn’t get it.
It’s like a campfire guitarist would accompany Miles or Wes or Sonny, let alone Trane, Akinmusire, Redman. It would make ‘em sound bad.


Edited by Dzjang (07/26/19 04:59 AM)
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546865 - 07/26/19 05:53 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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stratos Offline
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choose instrument in mixer block to the right
click a chord instrument
choose track setting
choose : Set natural arrangement.
Click : Disabled for (x)chord instrument
Repeat procedure on next chord instrument
Good luck


Edited by stratos (07/26/19 05:56 AM)

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#546873 - 07/26/19 07:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
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Thx, stratos, for the advise,

but, trust me, Natural arrangement has nothing to do with it.

You can leave it on or switch it off, per instrument, in global settings.

The thing is, Biab only knows 7 chords.

A typical chord progression to test is
CmMaj7 (it will play b7)
C7b9 (it will play natural 9!)
C7#9 (it switches between dorian: 12b3456b7 and mixolydian, a natural 9)

A typical style to test it is: dizzy jazz or bebop

Biab is very limited and it’s hard to see this after more than 20 years of updates.
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546900 - 07/26/19 08:48 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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MusicStudent Offline
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you go guy..., but don't disparage campfire guitar players grin
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#546902 - 07/26/19 08:56 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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jford Offline
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See, now I have to check it out. BIAB advertises support for the following chords:

Quote:
Major Chords: C, Cmaj, C6, Cmaj7, Cmaj9, Cmaj13, C69, Cmaj7#5, C5b, Caug, C+, Cmaj9#11, Cmaj13#11
Minor Chords: Cm, Cm6, Cm7, Cm9, Cm11, Cm13, Cmaug, Cm#5, CmMaj7
Half Diminished Chords: Cm7b5,
Diminished Chords: Cdim
Dominant 7th Chords: C7, 7+, C9+, C13+, C13, C7b13, C7#11, C13#11, C7#11b13, C9, C9b13, C9#11, C13#11, C9#11b13, C7b9, C13b9, C7b9b13, C7b9#11, C13b9#11, C7b9#11b13, C7#9, C13#9, C7#9b13, C9#11, C13#9#11, C7#9#11b13, C7b5, C13b5, C7b5b13, C9b5, C9b5b13, C7b5b9, C13b5b9, C7b5b9b13, C7b5#9, C13b5#9, C7b5#9b13, C7#5, C13#5, C7#5#11, C13#5#11, C9#5, C9#5#11, C7#5b9, C13#5b9, C7#5b9#11, C13#5b9#11, C7#5#9, C13#5#9#11, C7#5#9#11, C13#5#9#11
Suspended 4 Chords: Csus, C7sus, C9sus, C13sus, C7susb13, C7sus#11, C13sus#11, C7sus#11b13, C9susb13, C9sus#11, C13sus#11, C9sus#11b13, C7susb9, C13susb9, C7susb9b13, C7susb9#11, C13susb9#11, C7susb9#11b13, C7sus#9, C13sus#9, C7sus#9b13, C9sus#11, C13sus#9#11, C7sus#9#11b13, C7susb5, C13susb5, C7susb5b13, C9susb5, C9susb5b13, C7susb5b9, C13susb5b9, C7susb5b9b13, C7susb5#9, C13susb5#9, C7susb5#9b13, C7sus#5, C13sus#5, C7sus#5#11, C13sus#5#11, C9sus#5, C9sus#5#11, C7sus#5b9, C13sus#5b9, C7sus#5b9#11, C13sus#5b9#11, C7sus#5#9, C13sus#5#9#11, C7sus#5#9#11, C13sus#5#9#11,

Tricky Chords: C5b This is “C flat 5.” It is spelled this way to avoid confusion. C2, C5, C4, C69, C7alt, Cm7#5 You can type C-7 for Cm7 (i.e. use the minus sign) or C7-9 for C7b9.


But you're saying only seven of the 124 chords listed actually work? I kind of find that hard to believe. I guess I'll have a little work to do this weekend if I can find the time.
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#546904 - 07/26/19 08:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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jazzmammal Offline
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I understand exactly where you're coming from but...it will play a #9, I just tested it and I've heard it many times but it does depend on the style. For the b9 use the slash bass like an Edim/C for the C7b9. That does work reasonably well.

Still, the vast majority of Biab users have no idea of what you're talking about. Monk, Dizz, Trane? Never heard of them. The reason the Real Tracks became so incredibly popular is most can't spell midi much less understand how to use it. And that's fine, they don't need to use it when the RT's sound awesome and are truly very easy to use. The RT's are the big deal now and like Pipeline said, to have the artists record all those extensions would really be difficult given studio time costs, file size restrictions and the like.

Consider this, it's not just the chord names themselves, it's the voicings. I don't have to tell you you can voice a b13 all kinds of ways on a piano. How is Biab supposed to handle that? The different voicings alone would require a RT player to record the same chord name 3 or 4 times on a guitar or keyboard. If it's a midi style, how do you weight that? Based on what? Use a different voicing every bar, every two bars or what? Randomize it? We already know how well that works. There's only so much you can ask a computer to do with high level jazz.

Those 7 chords (more with slash bass tricks) cover probably 95% of all popular music done in the last 50 years including Real Book standards like Ipanema, Misty, Embraceable You, etc. For the vast majority of users who care about those tunes Biab does a pretty good job. Yes, I'm well aware the Real Books are dumbed down, it's up to the players to do it right and I've written about that before. You're an educated jazzer and I get it but that's not the market PGM is going for.

Bebop has always had a limited audience even when it was current. Nobody was playing it at a private corporate function or a yacht club 50 years ago and certainly not now. And bars and pubs? Forget it. Here in SoCal, my jazz gigs started drying up 20 years ago and even then we were doing more funky fusion than bebop although we did some of it. Frankly it bores me because most players especially horn guys just play those transcribed Charlie Parker lines over and over and over...They're not really soloing.

Bob
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#546906 - 07/26/19 09:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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Dzjang Offline
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To be correct: biab only knows 7 7th chords. Seven seventh chords, that is, smile It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff.
Beyond 7th chords, namely 9ths or 13s and its’ alterations or #11’s are “unbeknownst” to biab.
And inside 7th chords, it forgot to be able to play mMaj7!
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546920 - 07/26/19 10:43 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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MusicStudent Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dzjang
It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff.


OK, that is a better. smile

Now, where you are going is a bit like the story of the emperors new clothes". Clearly we are not talking RealTracks, but I am a little disappointed that you are suggesting the MIDI is not support/playing many of these - but not surprised if this is true. As I mentioned in the other tread, my ears and my needs found other ways to tweak midi chords outside of BIAB years ago.
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#546930 - 07/26/19 12:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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jazzmammal Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dzjang
To be correct: biab only knows 7 7th chords. Seven seventh chords, that is, smile It knows triads. But that’s -with all due respect- campfire stuff.
Beyond 7th chords, namely 9ths or 13s and its’ alterations or #11’s are “unbeknownst” to biab.
And inside 7th chords, it forgot to be able to play mMaj7!


Triads only?? No, that's not correct at all. It does Maj 7ths fine, it does minor 7ths with the 3rd and 5th fine too and a #9 no problem either. Are you ONLY using 2 jazz styles? Here are four screen shots the first two are the Modern Jazz midi style with piano and the next two are the New York Jazz RT style with piano. Lots of variations with 4, 5 and even 7 note chords. I didn't bother with the m7 chords, they're similar, not just triads.

What's cool (or not) depending is the C7#9 midi one. It's throwing all kinds of accidentals in there, a b13, the b9, the #9, depending on if I used the a Substyle or b substyle I got a descending line from Ab, A to G. Lots of interesting stuff because it's a modern jazz style not the plain zzjazz one that's simpler.


Attachments
Cmaj7 Midi.jpg

C7#9 Midi.jpg

Cmaj7 RT.jpg

C7#9 RT.jpg


_________________________
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#546931 - 07/26/19 12:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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jazzmammal Offline
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It's hard to put text into the same post as these attachments. The 3rd one is the same RT style as the last one. The last one is the #9 RT and it's pretty complex, lots of movement between both hands on the piano there and it's hard to read because of all the accidentals but it is based on the #9 chord.

You still make some good points about other chords but you can't say it's all dominant 7 triads. With the thousands of styles and all the variations it's impossible to come up with examples of everything but I think you need to dig in a little deeper.

I think what this boils down to is you want Biab to play exactly what you input and that just doesn't happen. In the -JazMod+ style it's giving you a 7b9 for example but it's part of a lot of movement just like a real pianist would do but is it a pure 7b9? No because I entered a #9 which if that is what you wanted you also got that along with everything else.

All I can say about that is that's what Biab does, it's what it's designed to do. If you want exact then you have to use other programs like Pipeline pointed out.

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (07/26/19 12:43 PM)
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#546937 - 07/26/19 01:25 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: jazzmammal]
Registered: 11/05/16
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Dzjang Offline
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@ Jazzmammal,
I specifically clarified that biab knows 7 7th chords and wrote down which ones.
If you want to criticize, please, do me and yourself the courtesy of checking.

I never said Biab only knew triads,
I specified which 7thchords it knows (apart from triads, which I am not going to discuss)
I clearly stated I was talking about midi styles. Rt is off topic.
You proved my point that Biab doesn’t play the written chord. If it says b9, a player would occasionally play #9, it fits. But I do not have to show how every walking bass style ignores b9 and plays natural 9 instead, which is not juggling the changes, it’s just plain wrong. Please, go listen to the aebersolds. If it says b9 bass and piano play an altered 9, never, ever a natural 9,
Same goes with mMaj7. Players play major 7th, not the flatted 7. It makes you sound more modern (well. More fifties than thirties)
In your second example you can clearly see the natural 9 in the second and third bar. There is NO natural 9 in a #9 chord.

You have every right to defend the product you love, but, I’d love it if you stayed on topic. This way the debate is getting all toxic and personal. Your discouragement about the diminishing succes of the jazz world doesn’t mean biab shouldn’t be able to play chords Roland, Yamaha and Wersi all know.

Thx,

Jan


Edited by Dzjang (07/26/19 01:33 PM)
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546947 - 07/26/19 03:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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Pipeline Offline
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You could understand with the RealTracks and the 12key ones now that file size is a limitation so substitution is used, but with MIDI there's no issues with file size so they should try to cover more chords in the recordings especially for Jazz.
Even if you had an option in BB to snap midi to chord/scale notes would help.

I suggested a guide for manual snapping or an option to Snap Selected Notes to chord/scale, that could have a different color shade for root, chord, scale, out or passing note.
There could maybe an option to duplicate notes from existing chord notes for missing chord notes as you would do manually.

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#546951 - 07/26/19 03:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
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jazzmammal Offline
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Ha, I was going to reply by pointing out some more things but guess what? Forget that. I just learned something that I've read about but never done. I had tried to write in a CmMaj7 and it wouldn't take it so what I did was right click in the chord box and check Chord Builder. In that window look in the upper left quadrant and in column 6 see the mMaj7. If you already have a C chord in the chord grid then the first column for Root already says C but if you didn't enter anything you would put the root in there first.

In the right hand quadrant there's a box that says Enter CmMaj7, hit that and voila there it is and it's spelled out CmMaj7 even though I tried to manually type it in just like that and it wouldn't take it. When I played it back the piano stayed right with that chord, no variations including when I used the substyle part markers. I also tried two other chord extensions and it was the same. The piano just stayed there, maybe that's the ticket but I won't know until I do some experimenting. Here's the screenshot:


Attachments
CmMaj7 Midi.jpg


_________________________
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#546956 - 07/26/19 03:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: jazzmammal]
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MarioD Offline
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Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Ha, I was going to reply by pointing out some more things but guess what? Forget that. I just learned something that I've read about but never done. I had tried to write in a CmMaj7 and it wouldn't take it so what I did was right click in the chord box and check Chord Builder. In that window look in the upper left quadrant and in column 6 see the mMaj7. If you already have a C chord in the chord grid then the first column for Root already says C but if you didn't enter anything you would put the root in there first.

In the right hand quadrant there's a box that says Enter CmMaj7, hit that and voila there it is and it's spelled out CmMaj7 even though I tried to manually type it in just like that and it wouldn't take it. When I played it back the piano stayed right with that chord, no variations including when I used the substyle part markers. I also tried two other chord extensions and it was the same. The piano just stayed there, maybe that's the ticket but I won't know until I do some experimenting. Here's the screenshot:



This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast.
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#546962 - 07/26/19 04:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7104
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7104
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
This is good Jan, you caught me on a day when I have time to mess around with this and I'm learning some new stuff. This time I added another 12 bars of some other chord extensions plus I tried a Weather Report style. The first screen shot is those chords using the same zzjazz style and you can see the chords are exactly how I wrote them. Then the next screenshot is using the -jazmjd style. This is completely different. Both shots are the keyboard track. As you can see the Weather Report style is what you might expect, lots of lines and different rhythms but still, the chords are there.

This shows what a huge difference maker the Stylemaker is. I opened up the Stylemaker and studied it a bit because I've not done much with it for years. You see the A subsyle, the B substyle and all the instruments. For the chording instruments you open up the notation window and write in whatever exact lines you want and whatever chord voicings you want for the patterns. Want the exact bass line from Chameleon? Write it in. What the piano riff from Take 5? Write it in. Those are just the lines, you can create groove patterns too. It's here where you tell Biab how to handle these chords I think. The Help window under Style Options talks about the weighting. The higher number makes it pretty much static, exactly how you wrote it, lower numbers adds more randomization. Of course if you write a style for one exact song that style is probably only good for that song. The Biab "factory" styles are more generic, they'll work with many different songs but then of course, not exact licks or voicings.

Maybe using the Chord Builder helps with that too, not sure. Anyway here's the screenshots:


Attachments
Many chord voicings.jpg

Weather Report style.png


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#546965 - 07/26/19 05:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Jazz lovers! Support this: Biab reads chords, but can only play 7 chords, please educate biab [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6048
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6048
Loc: Chicago
Good stuff guys, keep it up... cool
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RealBand 2019 Build 5 Update Available!

All RealBand 2019 for Windows customers can download the latest FREE patch update (build 5) here.

Summary of Changes in Build 5 (Oct 10)
Fixed: Sometimes the position of the VST/DX plugs window (even if not visible) would prevent a drop, such as into the drop station, from occurring.
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Notation Enhancements in Band-in-a-Box® 2019 64-bit for macOS Catalina

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Band-in-a-Box® 2019 64-bit for macOS Catalina!

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So, take comfort in knowing that the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2019 64-bit for Mac runs great on Catalina and there are no known Catalina/Band-in-a-Box® issues.

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